transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] If you've ever sat in your car and cried because the overwhelm is so real, like I did this morning, then you know what mental load is. It's knowing where everything in your house is located, the jersey that needs to be washed by Saturday, the meeting that needs to be rescheduled for Friday.

Speaker 2:
[00:17] Today, we break down what mental load actually is, why it doesn't shrink, and most importantly, how to talk to your partner about it without it turning into a fight.

Speaker 1:
[00:26] Try to clear your mind as much as you can for the next hour because this is important. We are getting IN IT with Paige Connell. This is the podcast for women in their 30s and 40s who are building, raising, and evolving, all at the same time.

Speaker 2:
[00:47] This isn't a highlight reel, or hustle culture, or toxic optimism. And it's definitely not a quick fix. It's honest conversations about your health, relationships, and ambition, and what it actually takes to live this chapter of your life well.

Speaker 1:
[01:01] If you're a woman who is building something, raising someone, or searching for something you can't quite name yet, and trying to take care of yourself in the middle of it all, you are IN IT.

Speaker 2:
[01:10] This podcast is for you.

Speaker 1:
[01:12] Less noise, better information.

Speaker 2:
[01:14] If you've listened before, welcome back. And if this is your first time, welcome. I'm Ashley Buckler, and as a full-time working mom of a toddler, here are some things that are on my mental load right now. We're out of milk again. The shoes don't fit overnight. New doctors, new forms. What are we eating for breakfast, lunch, and dinner for the rest of our life? I need to text my friends back. Do we have enough detergent? Did I confirm the meeting for tomorrow? Plan the birthday party. You get it. The list goes on and on.

Speaker 1:
[01:39] Ashley, yeah, I do get it. And I'm Jordan Harper. And I cried. I'm talking a deep, deep, deep cry after dropping my children off from school today, just because of the sheer overwhelm. So this could not come at a better time.

Speaker 2:
[01:51] Did you really have a deep cry?

Speaker 1:
[01:53] Yeah, because I just felt so overwhelmed with my children and I literally did not know what to do. To my core, I was like, I don't even feel this overwhelmed at work because at least I was like, I don't know what to do, you know? That's not a good feeling. So then you cry.

Speaker 2:
[02:08] I can relate.

Speaker 1:
[02:09] And then you show up and you just, emotions were just, and I just sat in the car afterwards like this.

Speaker 2:
[02:19] I was like, I was just like, I was just like. I just want to come give you a hug right now. And the thing about you is it's like, it's so much sadder seeing you cry because you don't normally cry. So when you do, I'm like, she's hit a breaking point.

Speaker 1:
[02:32] But I feel better now. I feel like there's hope on the other side. I'm going to read some parenting books. I'm going to listen to some parenting podcasts. We're going to get some parenting experts on. We got to get a lot of people on. We got to get some guidance.

Speaker 2:
[02:43] We have Paige on today who has millions of women following her and has become a voice for the overwhelm that we experience in motherhood. And Paige, something that I think that you are so gifted at is explaining the raw emotion of it all and the experience of it all. The way you articulate when you speak on social, it's like, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. You have a way of giving words to the experience. And so I think this is going to be a really great conversation and help women feel less alone because as we're having some of these thoughts on our own and in our own lives, it can feel a little bit isolating and it can feel like, am I the only one who feels this way? Is this normal? And at the root of it all, we have really similar goals. We want to be happy moms. We want to be present moms. We want to have healthy and happy marriages. We want to have a fun home life that we enjoy. And so I think this is a conversation we should unpack and dive into all things mental load. So can you kick us off with what is the mental load? Because I think that the way you explain it is really important and thorough. So I'd love for you to take us there.

Speaker 3:
[03:45] Sure. So there's the clinical way of explaining the mental load, which I'll quickly give you, which is cognitive labor, emotional labor, invisible labor, all these clinical terms people use. Then there's the way I like to describe it, which is it's a never ending to do list in your brain of every single thing you need to know, do, remember, plan for, anticipate and manage. And this list, this to do list that we have in our brains, it's always humming in the background, it never gets shorter, it only gets longer. So it's this incredibly overwhelming list that you never really get to see shrink, because the second you check something off, you add something to the list. I think of laundry, for example, I was folding my son's laundry and I was realizing his pants are getting too short. And so I was like, I need to buy him new pants. And so now I have to figure out what size he is. So that's added to my list. And so I checked off laundry, but I've moved on to the next thing and I added something new to my list that I have to do. And that is really what the mental load is. It's just this ongoing checklist of everything you're in charge of and that you are essentially the owner of.

Speaker 2:
[04:40] Okay, so yes. And that is something that I'm a new mom. I have one child, he's two years old. So I'm figuring this out. And the older he gets, you're so right. It's like the mental load just keeps growing. So it's not going anywhere. It's actually just expanding because now he's in school. So there's like that whole aspect and all of that to keep up with. Do you have anything that you do like tangibly in your life as this mental load and as this list is growing? Like how are you managing that? Because if it's just living in your head, I am at that place where like, it's got to get out of my head somehow. But like, how are you doing that?

Speaker 3:
[05:16] Yeah, I use my reminders app on my iPhone. It's the only way I survive pretty much. On any given day, I'm looking at it on my computer right now. It's on my Mac, it's on my MacBook. It's everywhere. Like everywhere I am, this reminders app is. And any given day, I'll probably have 10 to 15 tasks. And at any given time, I'll have 30 to 60 tasks that are set with dates and times. And so it might be something like, fill out form for field trip, buy more ketchup, check in with pediatrician, whatever it is. It's all the things that pop into my head throughout the day that I either have to do or remember. So sometimes it's something as simple as remember to check if we have enough toilet paper before I go to Costco. That's just the reminder. But if I don't set it there, then I'm not going to check or I'm going to forget and then I'm going to kick myself when I go to Costco and I forget to buy the toilet paper. And so I use the reminders app. I think there's so many great tools. You know, my husband is a paper and pen guy. He has a notepad where he has like his long list. And then he has his daily list. And that's the only way he gets things done is he checks it off. We share reminders and he just doesn't even, it's like it doesn't register in his brain on his phone. So he needs the physical paper. I think my suggestion to everyone is just find what works for you and take it out of your head and put it down somewhere where it's living outside of your brain because it's taking up space. Necessary space you need to function and enjoy your life is being taken up by tiny little reminders that you're trying to keep track of.

Speaker 1:
[06:38] Yes, and you're so right. The list like gets so much longer. I'm the paper person, so I carry like a little notebook because what I was finding with my phone was I was picking up my phone and then I was getting distracted by like everything else. And so I was doing that. I was doing like reminders, notes app, whatever, or just like texting myself. But then like I kept being on my phone and I was like, why am I even picking my phone? Now I forgot what I was getting on my phone to remind myself for. So I started doing like the little, just like the little notebook. So I like carry around like a small little notebook. And that's like been so helpful. And getting it out of your head, that alone eliminates some of the mental load.

Speaker 3:
[07:13] It does.

Speaker 2:
[07:14] Are you batching this because you're a full time mom and you're also creating and turning out content very consistently. It's very fun to watch. So like, are you batching this happening or is it just like, I have a second, I'm going to order the ketchup.

Speaker 1:
[07:28] Good question.

Speaker 3:
[07:29] I am so strategic with my day. So somebody asked me the other day, I did a morning routine that I posted the other day. Cause somebody was like, can you show us your morning routine? And I'm like, it's not that exciting, but yes, I'll show you. But I am so strategic in the way that I move about my kitchen and the way I move about my life where I'm like, okay, I'm in the mud room. There's three things I can do in the mud room right now. I can switch the laundry, feed the dog, and give the dog water and then get the kid's shoes ready. I'm in the mud room. I'm gonna do all of those things right now. Even if I don't need to feed the dog necessarily right now, or the kids aren't putting their shoes on for 30 minutes, I'm just gonna pull them out of the closet. So that way we move faster when it's time to do it. When I'm in the pantry, it's like, I'm getting the cereal, I'm getting the snacks, I'm getting all the things that I need at one time. I'm not gonna come here multiple times. And this is just how my brain works, where I'm like, okay, I'm in this one spot. How much can I accomplish in this one spot right now? Well, I think moms are often, for better or for worse, we're the ones who are in charge of a lot of the mental load. When they survey women, I think they say women carry about 70% of the mental load for a family, right, in the kids. And that's a lot. That's a lot for yourself, for your job, for your home, for your kids, your dog, all the things. And when I move through town, I always tell people, I'm like, if I'm dropping my daughters off at daycare, I think about the route and I'm like, oh, I could make a return at UPS. I could pick up the prescriptions on my way back. And then I could drop off the form at school. And I map out my route to get as much done in 25 minutes as I possibly can before I head back home. And I do that with everything. I'm on this side of town.

Speaker 1:
[08:56] You're like logistics. You're very logistically minded.

Speaker 3:
[08:58] Well, I got laid off about a year ago for my full-time corporate job that I was in for 10 years. And I worked in operations management for a direct-to-consumer apparel business. And so my job was shipping and fulfillment and all the things. And so I've taken that and I know it's not sexy, but I've taken that kind of mentality and I pulled it into my home life. So that way I can optimize my days and do that in a way that actually works with what I'm already doing.

Speaker 1:
[09:21] This is incredible. I have four kids as well. And we are all about optimization. And I've gotten really into figuring out like Tetris and stuff together. And so this idea that you're going into a room and you're doing every single thing, that's smart. And it's almost like at that point, it's kind of mindless for you. It sounds like like now it's routine. And I feel like the best way you can optimize is when you get these set habits and then you build on top of those. Then it's not really like adding to that mental load. These are habits that they're so ingrained, you don't even think about them. It sounds like you're just doing a little bit of forethought and a little bit of pre-planning.

Speaker 3:
[09:51] Yes. Or I also plan out me, like I talk about laundry a lot because I think laundry is something that is never ending and relentless. And everybody's annoyed by the laundry, right? And we have a laundry schedule in our house. Each kid has an assigned laundry day. And then we have an assigned day for towels and for linens. And then there's no question of like, is it clean? Is it not? Well, I haven't done your laundry since Tuesday. So if it was in there after Tuesday, it's not clean, right? It's everybody knows what's going on. And then I also don't have to wonder like, oh my gosh, am I going into the weekend with four loads of laundry, two loads of how much laundry? It's just, I do want a day. It's simple, it's easy. It never feels overwhelming. It's done typically before 9 a.m. And I think that's the thing that really was an unlock for me was creating small opportunities to free up my time and just make things operate more efficiently. Jordan, you mentioned that my friend was over and we hosted them for dinner and they had a two-year-old, three-year-old. And then my husband and I have a routine. Like we know who's doing what, like what's it looking like? And she was laughing and she's like, this is wild to watch. She's like, what are you guys doing? She's like, you're not even speaking to each other and you're just moving around each other and things are happening and like, but nobody's saying anything. And I was like, no, we have like a system. We know it has to get done. And to other people, it does maybe look a little crazy because we're just like moving. But for us, we're just so used to that now and that it's, it really doesn't take up brain space anymore, which is amazing.

Speaker 1:
[11:14] So something that I get asked a lot because I time batched during the day, really try to like not task switch. So many people are like, that feels like it's going to be too constricting in my life. And I feel like systems and discipline, all of that is actually so freeing for your life because it is just, you don't have to think about it. And I remember even having young kids, I did mom's on call, which is like a sleep schedule kind of thing. When they were four and under, we had that sleeping schedule on lock. But the point is, my day was so much more predictable, so I could actually plan to get stuff done instead of living in this utter chaos. And taking those times to create those systems on the back end is making that day to day function so much better.

Speaker 2:
[11:54] So you have four kids. So take us back to how you got to this place. Because when you have your first...

Speaker 1:
[11:59] We need help. We need guidance.

Speaker 2:
[12:00] We need... It's like they're just kind of dropped in. Your family dynamic is changing. Your marriage dynamic is changing. You now both have all of these new responsibilities that you've never had to juggle together before. And so when you were sharing the example of you and your husband, not even having to speak, you're running around the kitchen, you know who's doing what and it's all getting done. Can you take us through how you got to that point?

Speaker 3:
[12:21] Oh, I mean, it wasn't pretty.

Speaker 1:
[12:23] Wait, hold on. How are your kids now? What are their ages?

Speaker 3:
[12:25] Yeah. So my oldest is eight and a half. So I have eight and a half, seven and a half, five and a half and three, almost four.

Speaker 1:
[12:30] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[12:31] So they're all five years apart. So five years between the oldest and the youngest, exactly, basically. And we had a unique journey to parenthood where actually my husband and I were foster parents. And so our two oldest moved in with us summer of 2019. World shut down, right? In March of 2020. I was six weeks pregnant with my first biological. So we went from no kids to three kids in a year, essentially. And our two oldest were one and two when they moved in with us. We got thrown into like toddler world and then immediately newborn after. And so it was a lot. And it was a pandemic, like all the things. But the thing that happens to a lot of us is I, like many other women, I had the mat leave. My husband did not have any time off. He wasn't given any time off, couldn't take any time off. And what I think happens with a lot of us is we talk about things like, are we going to do moms on call? Are we doing taking care of babies? Are we doing baby lead weaning? What high chair do we want? What bassinet do we like? Are we doing the SNU? We have all these conversations about like products and pediatricians and all of the things. But we don't actually talk about the work of raising a child. We don't talk about what it's going to look like to share night feedings. We don't talk about what it's going to look like to pack a diaper bag. I remember a woman messaged me and she's like, I am going to lose it on my husband because we're out somewhere. And he's like, oh, there's usually snacks in the diaper bag. There's no snacks. As if they're just like magically in the diaper bag.

Speaker 1:
[13:51] The snack fairy.

Speaker 2:
[13:52] Oh, the snack fairy is off on Thursdays, babe.

Speaker 3:
[13:54] Forgot to tell you. Exactly. And she's like, I don't know, man. Like, I wonder who forgot the snacks. And so it's this idea. We don't talk about these things, right? We just make assumptions that somebody will step in and do them. And typically it's women doing that. I think it's women doing that for a multitude of reasons. We're conditioned to do it. I think about, you know, even the old ideas of like girls play with baby dolls. There's only really one way to play with the baby doll, and it's to take care of it, right? Like you take care of a baby. And so, you know, we're conditioned to take care of people. We are fed insane amounts of messaging on social media about what it means to be a good mom, what products you have to have, sleep schedules you should do, all the things. And then I also think just community wise, like women tend to have more of a community around motherhood, right? So like when our kids aren't sleeping, we'll text our friends and they'll be like, oh, this is what I tried or this one. And so we start to take on all of this work. And I especially think during mat leave, you know, for me, it's like, I went to every doctor's appointment. I toured the daycares. I did all of those things. I washed the pump parts. I did everything. I figured out sleep schedules and feeding schedules. And I was kind of the person telling my husband, this is the nap schedule. This is the feeding schedule. Every kid we added, it was like a snowball getting away from me. It was getting bigger and bigger and faster and faster, rolling down a hill. And I couldn't keep up with how much was being added to my plate. And when my fourth was born, that was kind of my breaking point. Like everything had been running okay. I was able to manage most of it. I was tired and exhausted and all of the things, but I was like, I've got it. The fourth landed and I was like, no, this is the end. And I had a breaking point. Like there's a very specific day, like I could tell you the whole thing, but like there's a very specific day and I had a breaking point and I thought to myself, like this is incredibly unfair. Like everything is my responsibility. Everything is my job. If he drops a ball, I'm expected to just catch it. I'm expected to know everything about these kids and do everything for these kids. And that is when I sat down with my husband and I, we had a very, very intentional conversation about what it would look to share this work. And I wish we'd had that conversation when they were babies, because we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble and a lot of arguing and a lot of burnout on my end, because it would have been as simple as asking from the get go, who's going to be responsible for the diaper bag? Who's going to be responsible for the dishwasher or the bottle sanitizer? Like having those simple conversations could have saved us so much time.

Speaker 1:
[16:14] I think like there's certain conversations that my husband and I have had through the years. And it's kind of been, I picked, I basically was like, okay, let's do mom's on call. And honestly, it was amazing. This is one, another reason I liked it, because it wasn't me telling him what the schedule was. I was like, here's the book. This is what it says. This is like, do you want to do this? And it's like, yeah, let's do it. But I think that there's certain situations where like, I think women kind of behind the scenes were like, we'll just take that. I'll just take that on. I'll just take that on. When really, like, if you're in a supportive relationship, a lot of times your husband's like, oh yeah, okay, sure. And it's really just like taking the time to have that discussion instead of having this assumption. And we have this unrealistic expectation of what we think our significant others should be doing when really it's like they have no idea, they potentially have no idea.

Speaker 3:
[16:54] Yeah. Well, I think it's partially like, you know, the lack of paternity leave for men, the fact that, you know, childcare is an assumption that women figure out, right? Like there's all these things that are like systemic barriers that kind of put this work on moms. But then what happens is dads don't even know it exists. Like they don't even know that work exists. They haven't seen it. They haven't heard about it. They don't know it's happening. But also, you know, I think most men, and I don't want to say all men because I know it's not all men, most men are willing and able participants who want happy partners and happy kids and want to be great dads. And my husband was one of those. If you had looked at our house, you would say like he is always with them. He's doing bath time. He's doing dinner. He's changing diapers. He's helping with the overnight. He was always here. It's not like he was just like sitting on the couch. He was in it with me. But what I experienced and I think so many other women experienced was he was happy to help, but I had to tell him how to do it. I had to say, can you change the diaper? Can you feed the baby? Can you wake up? I had to be the director of the ship. And I was tired of doing that. I was tired of having to ask for help as opposed to having an active participant who just owned those things. And I think that's what a lot of women find, which is my husband's a great guy. He's a great dad. He has great intentions. And yet I'm burning out because unless I ask him to feed the baby, the baby's not going to get fed. And that's just, it's just so much to carry by yourself.

Speaker 1:
[18:12] Okay. So what do you do if you're in that situation? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:15] It's coming from a good heart and it's coming from a good place. From men when they say it, they genuinely mean that. Like, I am here to help you. Just tell me what to do. And then the woman's like, I don't want to tell you what to do. I want you to figure it out. And so, but like, to be fair, you know, we can't assume that they know what's going on in our inner world and what, and know like these thoughts, we do have to break it down for them and like share those things. So how did you get to the place where it's not just, you're sharing that or you're owning this, I'm owning this. It's also in the place it sounds like where your husband's now asking you and maybe taking on more of like not just the dishwasher type of task, but the mental load of that task. I was just thinking about this this morning because we have empty soap and I was like, I wonder how long this would be empty. Like I wonder if, you know, anyways, take us to, how did you get there?

Speaker 1:
[18:59] Take us to how you have a perfect marriage right now.

Speaker 2:
[19:01] Tell us the deets.

Speaker 3:
[19:03] Yeah, nobody has a perfect marriage, I'll tell you that. You know, I think for us, there was multiple steps of how we got to where we are today. And I think the question of, tell me how to help, give me a list, tell me what to do. The reason it's so hard for women when men say that is because of that never ending to do list, right? And the way that everything is connected. So it's, okay, I could have you fold the laundry, but if you fold the laundry and then you use the last pod for the next thing and you don't tell me and I don't add it to the list, then the next time I go to do laundry, I'm not going to be able to. And, or, you know, you're looking at your running to do list and you're like, okay, I could have you cook dinner, but then you're going to ask me what to make. I have to think about what to make for dinner and then tell you what to make for dinner. So it's actually not that helpful.

Speaker 1:
[19:45] These examples could not be more relatable.

Speaker 3:
[19:47] Yeah, and it's not helpful, right? It's like, in the moment, you cooking dinner or folding laundry, maybe that saves me 20 minutes. Maybe that saves me 30 minutes. But I'm still the one who's thinking about dinner today, tomorrow, the next day, forever. And so telling you what to do right now doesn't actually help me in the long run. And that's the difference between the mental load and a task. I think a lot of men get confused because they're like, I'll do anything. I'll do whatever, just tell me what to do. And women are saying there, it's not about the actual thing. I don't mind cooking dinner. I don't mind folding the laundry. That's the mindless stuff. It's everything in the background that I'm doing that you don't see. And so step one, before you can even get to the actual work, you have to stop viewing your partner as your enemy, which I think happens a lot in these instances where resentment tends to build up and what women feel is this frustration towards their partner. And when their partner says, just tell me what to do, they think you should know what to do. Why don't you know what to do? And then they want to spew their laundry list of grievances towards their partner. And then they tend to get upset because their partner gets defensive. Like that's the number one thing, like my partner is defensive. I always ask women, I'm like, if somebody came to me with a laundry list of grievances and I didn't get defensive, I think I wouldn't be human. Like I think our first instinct as people is to want to defend ourselves.

Speaker 2:
[20:57] Well, and also they're sitting there thinking, but I'm doing this, I literally will paint the entire house for you. Like just tell me, I'll do anything.

Speaker 3:
[21:02] Exactly. Yes. And they want to defend themselves and say like, I know that you do the laundry, I like mowed the lawn and I changed this and I did that. And what it becomes is it becomes just like a competition. It doesn't actually become productive. And oftentimes we find ourselves in these positions where your husband forgot to take out the trash for the 10th time and you say something and you try to talk about it in the moment and that never works. And so what I always recommend is first and foremost, changing your mindset and thinking about how there's an overwhelming amount of work for any two people. And the only way to accomplish it in a way that is fair and sustainable is to do it together, to work as a team. And so you really have to have that mindset going into it. And Jordan, you mentioned this, not every husband is this guy, but I think a lot of men are willing and able participants who want to be good partners and participate. And so if you have that, then you can proceed to actually doing the very first thing, which is making the invisible labor visible. So how do you make the work that you're doing, that to-do list in your brain, as visible to your partner as possible? I'm lucky because it's in a reminders app, but I often recommend Fair Play by Eve Rodsky or making a spreadsheet. I have a spreadsheet that I share with people where it lists every task that's happening in our house and not just mine, the ones my husband is thinking about and doing too. So we both came together and we looked at it. And I like a spreadsheet, again, operations person. I was like, I like a spreadsheet. I want to be able to tweak this and look at it all the time. And we put our names in my husband and I on the things that we owned. There were certain things we owned together, certain things that he owned, I owned, and there was about 100. And I owned 65 on my own and he owned 15 on his own. And his stuff was the lawn and the trash and things that don't really have a mental load and they're not never ending. If you think about dinner, the second you're done with dinner, you have to add things to your grocery list, add ketchup to the grocery list, you have to clean the kitchen, and then you're already thinking about the next meal. You're never not, especially with kids, it's snack and breakfast and snack and lunch and snack. It's just constant. And so the lawn is mowed and you're probably not gonna mow it again for at least a week. You're just not gonna think about it again until that time comes around. And so by making that invisible labor visible, it actually, similar to the mom's on call idea, it took it off of me saying to him, I'm doing too much. And it made it so obvious. It was so clear night and day of what the actual breakdown of work looked like in our home. And I remember saying to him like, do you see why I keep saying this feels unfair? Like, I'm not saying that to be mean. I'm not saying that because I think you're a bad dad or any, like I just, this is too much. Like it's too much for me to carry by myself. It was something as little as like cutting the kid's nails. Like why am I the only person who ever remembers to cut their nails, which happens every week? Like why am I the only one doing that? And so we sat down and we looked at that work and we started to decide, what does he own and what do I own and how do we transfer that work to him, slow and small and steady so he can start to get the hang of it. And not just the actual task, but the mental load of that task. And unfortunately, that does mean some heavy lifting upfront of like teaching a partner the things that you inherently know because you've been doing them for a really long time. And I know a lot of women get frustrated like, why do I have to do more work like to get help? I get it, I get all of those things. My question to everyone is, do you want to suffer forever or suffer the short term?

Speaker 1:
[24:17] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[24:17] Like for me, I would rather 18 months of really hard work for a lifetime of optimized living and happiness and sustainability than keep doing this forever and like running on this hamster wheel.

Speaker 1:
[24:28] When you're talking about these tasks, like you guys are like, hey, we're blocking out. Let's get specific here. Like, how long did it take you to like think of this? Is this like in one sitting that you're doing by yourself? You're like writing out everything?

Speaker 3:
[24:39] The whole process took about 18 months. But that first part, like the looking at the tasks, we did that one night, right? Like we sat down and we looked at it and then I said, okay, this experience together.

Speaker 1:
[24:48] And then you're listing it all. This is in the spreadsheet at the time.

Speaker 3:
[24:51] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[24:51] This is like a kind of like a meeting, essentially.

Speaker 3:
[24:54] It's a meeting. It's like, I think about a workplace. I remember at the time I worked in this company and we were really big on accountability, right? Like we're not going to, it's not going to be wishy washy. We're not going to have questions about who's deliverable. That is like, it is very, very, very clear here. Who's accountable to what? Like, we just very streamlined.

Speaker 2:
[25:09] Let me write that down.

Speaker 3:
[25:12] But we, I think we sat on the couch for like two hours. I think we did it after bedtime at the time. And so we sat down at like 730 and we spent our evening, like two to three hours talking through this and then talking about what it would look like to shift tasks to his plate and which ones they would be and why. And so, you know, we talked about his strengths, my strengths, his weaknesses, my weaknesses, the things that I don't mind doing, the things that he doesn't mind doing, the things I hate doing, right? Like I remember saying, I don't ever want to come up with dinner again. And I don't care what we eat. I feel like a lot of moms feel like that. I'm like, I would eat an apple for dinner. I could care less what dinner is. And so if you could own dinner, and plus he gets home from work before I do, I'm like, it just actually makes sense for you to own dinner because I work later than you. It just makes sense. And so we did that work line by line. We looked at it and said, who should be doing this and why? And what will that look like? And then we didn't, you can't switch it all at once. That's impossible. But we spent about three-ish months slowly moving all of this to his plate and getting into that nitty gritty of the actual mental load of those tasks. So when he took over dinner at first, every single night he would ask me what to make. And I remember looking at him after a month and being like, I appreciate that you're cooking the dinner. This is not what I was talking about. You have to come up with the dinner. You have to know which meat is going to expire first. You have to know what's in the pantry. You have to know what the kids like. If you make a dinner all of the kids hate every single night, that's not making dinner. That's just not helpful. So you need to fully own this experience because also when I decide what's for dinner and all you do is cook it, the accountability and ownership is still with me. And if everybody hated the dinner, it's still on me, right? So that work took like three months. That work took three months and then we kind of added on as we went.

Speaker 1:
[27:02] This is helpful because this is not an overnight switch.

Speaker 3:
[27:05] No.

Speaker 1:
[27:05] This is something that you're right, like years and years and years, mental load has been there, so it's going to take that time. And he's open and like y'all are having these feedback moments, so then that way you're actually getting to where he does own that.

Speaker 3:
[27:17] You have to let your partner have space to fail a little bit, not in a way that would impact anybody negatively, right? Like there's some things where I'm like, there is no tolerance for failure here, it impacts the kids in a negative way, like we don't, this is not something we drop the ball on. But there's certain things where it's like, yeah, you want to try a new way of folding laundry, best of luck, I know you won't put it in the drawer, and the kids are going to make a mess of it in two seconds, but like, yeah, try your laundry way, right? For sure, do it. You kind of have to let them learn in a way, like my husband had to cook a bunch of dinners to figure out like what was successful with the kids, what was quick enough, right? What didn't use 25 panned. He had to go through that himself. And I always tell women, I know we have a really low tolerance for this sometimes because we're really good at these things and we've been doing them for a long time, depending how long you've been a parent. And it's hard to watch your partner kind of floundering at something that you know you excel at. It's like when you move into management and you hire a replacement for yourself and you're like, oh my God, you're doing that wrong. Like, why are you doing it like that? You have to give them space because when you first became a parent, like when I was first a parent, I failed a million times. I did things wrong all the time. I forgot the diapers. I didn't pack enough extra clothes. Like I did all of these things. And I know I wouldn't have wanted my husband like being mad at me about that. Like I was just learning and growing. And I tried to give him that same space. Not always. I was not always good at it, but I tried to give him that space to really learn because if you genuinely want them to own that work, you have to allow them to step into that position.

Speaker 2:
[28:46] Grace is such an important part of this because that's like the inner heart posture that's going on. And you want to have this loving heart towards your spouse. So it's really important to keep in mind that, Grace, and exactly what you said. Like I was failing all the time too. And I think about that for myself. It's like, well, I'm dropping the ball. I'm failing. I'm not doing everything perfect. I'm learning just as he is. And I think because so much of parenting comes very naturally to women, you can start to feel resentful. Like, why don't you just get this? And why aren't you like doing it the way I would do it? But you make such a good point there, Paige, about like letting them fail, letting them try it their own way and learn and do it in their own way. Like we don't want them micromanaging how we do our things. So why would we like, you know, then do that to them in return? Another thing that you talked about that I want to like get into the weeds of is this two things, tolerance and expectation. Because when you were talking about like, I give dinner off, I don't care if I eat an apple for dinner. So like for me, I do care what I eat for dinner. So I, that wouldn't like, that wouldn't work. So I would be more, I'm more willing to like, do the heavy lift of the dinner because I care about the outcome. Whereas my husband doesn't care what we eat. He just wants to eat. So that like makes sense with our dynamic. But if we think about birthday parties, or like if we think about holidays, and we think about these things that women typically have like, and this is not true for all women, but like, I feel like a lot of us have really strong opinions and like vision for what we want the decor to look like, or the experience to feel like, whereas men are like, I don't really care that much, like what it looks like. That's just like not what they care about. And I think sometimes we have this maybe unrealistic expectation of like, how do you navigate that?

Speaker 3:
[30:30] So I think it's a layered conversation. So I think women and mothers have been held to unrealistically high expectations our whole lives, right? I think women are held to incredibly high expectations, especially in motherhood. I think men often don't care about these things because they've never been expected to care about them, right? So when you host your wedding, nobody's ever like, oh, you know, John picked out terrible flowers. Nobody says that. People will say that about a bride, like, oh, her color scheme. Also, I always say to my husband, I'm like, when we became pregnant and had our first, my Instagram feed immediately changed to all baby stuff, all motherhood baby, his remained exactly the same. So not only am I getting like pressure from like my actual community or like this worry, right? From my actual community or judgment, from my mother-in-law, my mom, whoever, you also get this online pressure that men just don't have. Like men don't have this pressure online being like, don't sleep train your baby, baby-led weaning. Like he's like, I don't even know what that means, right? I've never even heard that word. And I'm like, right, but my entire algorithm is telling me all of the ways I'm failing as a mom, essentially, or like the things I should be doing as a mom. And I think that plays into it. So I think there's this layer of judgment. I think about my daughters, when they go to school, and they have messy hair and eye drop off, there is judgment. Like, oh, she couldn't have even brushed their hair, like they came in looking up. Like there is a judgment. When dad does it, it's like, oh, he did his best. Right, like we hold moms accountable to their kids in a way that we don't hold dads accountable to their kids. And, you know, and I'm not saying that's men's fault, but I do think that's why, like with a birthday party, for example, I think for some women, it's external pressure, or they've been raised to be a good host or whatever. And so they have certain expectations. I think there's also this layer of impact, where they know the impact it may have on their child. So if my kid has gone to all these birthday parties and they've specifically asked for something because they've seen it a bunch of times, right? Then I have a vision for why I'm doing it because I'm trying to get this end result for my child. Right? And so I think that's also something where a lot of women will say, like, I have a hard time passing things off to my husband because I don't want him to let the kids down. Right? Like they have this real sense of like, I don't want him to let them down. And I understand that. I think they're, you know, I've never been an over the top like birthday mom. Like we have a fun birthday party. It is what it is. But if they didn't have like, you know, a cake, they'd be bummed. Right? Like they'd be like, where's the cake? The way I think about expectations and standards is you actually have to talk about this part. Like we keep talking about like what it means to do this work. You have to talk to your partner. You have to say, hey, if you're going to take over the birthday party, like these are the expectations. Like let's agree on what the standards are here. And if your standards are up here and his standards are down here, you don't have to come down to him and not, he doesn't necessarily have to come up to you. But if we can meet in the middle, right? Like what is a realistic standard for our family? What makes sense for our family? Let's meet there. So even if your husband was doing dinner, Ashley, and you have certain expectations, it has to be like, okay, like I need, there has to be a vegetable and it can't just be boiled.

Speaker 2:
[33:25] I don't want just Seattle.

Speaker 3:
[33:26] Like you have to season this.

Speaker 2:
[33:28] You have to season this.

Speaker 3:
[33:29] I want a dinner, right? Like I want a real dinner. But you can have those conversations and your partner, because they care about you and they care about the impact on you, should be understanding of meeting those expectations. It doesn't mean they're making a four-star meal, right? But like, how do we bridge that gap? How do we work together to say, this is what it looks like for us to manage this together. And these are the minimum standards. Like if we go above and beyond, amazing, but we don't go below. Like we don't go below.

Speaker 1:
[33:56] Minimum standards.

Speaker 3:
[33:57] Yeah, that's from Fair Play. Eve Rotsky has minimum standard of care, which is like, this is the benchmark we're always hitting. And if we go above it, fantastic, but we won't go below that. And that way both people are on the same page where it's like, doesn't matter about the judgment or any of those things. Like you and I have agreed this is what we're doing. And this is where we'll always meet.

Speaker 1:
[34:14] Then you also allow your partner or even whoever to exceed that. And then you can appreciate that in a different way instead of like having an expectation and feeling like entitled that you deserve something that they don't even know what they're expecting from you.

Speaker 3:
[34:28] Yeah, you have to have conversations, a lot of conversations, and it's annoying. Yeah, you have to like over communicate these things, especially when they're little. And you're a new parent, like over communicating will save you in the long run because now my husband and I spend very little time talking about this stuff because we've just been doing it for so long. And we still have to talk about the calendar because for kids, it's just like chaos all the time. Yeah, the calendar. But we're not talking about, you can't leave the dishwasher unloaded for two days. That's just not something we're talking about because it's just all been agreed upon well in advance.

Speaker 1:
[35:02] But you put in the work so you don't have to talk about it. That's great.

Speaker 3:
[35:05] Exactly. But most people just make assumptions. So to your point, they make assumptions, they set standards, but they don't actually have the conversations.

Speaker 2:
[35:14] I think it's really helpful to know to what you enjoy, what your strengths are and the strengths of your partner. So even the birthday party, even though that's something I wanted to do, I care deeply about, I love to do decorations, I want to hand make stuff. I really enjoy that. And I don't expect Beau to care at the level that I care about certain aspects of the birthday party. But what I don't love is ordering the food, finding the venue, calling the venue, booking it, signing the contract, all that. So he will do all of that. He's my logistics guy. And it's become this really natural dance between the two of us, where now when we have these moments come up, like holidays, what you're saying is true. Like it took us a minute to get there, but now it's kind of understood like, okay, you're going to do the planning part. I'm going to do the make it pretty part. And it just starts to like get into a flow, into a rhythm, but it does take intentional conversation. And you know, sometimes it doesn't come out as graceful the first time you start to voice what's going on inside.

Speaker 1:
[36:11] If Paige, I have a question. So if you're just like, so for people listening to this, what is your first recommendation? I know you talked about the spreadsheet. Is that where you would recommend people start?

Speaker 3:
[36:20] Actually, no. If you are a new mom or just a woman in general, because I always say this, the mental load in this work, it does not just exist in parenting and in partnership. I actually always use the example of siblings. I'm the oldest of four. There's three girls and a boy. My brother's the youngest. And I always say, when it came time for Mother's Day, was my brother coming up with a gift or the card or any? No, like I would say, we're the oldest two.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] We're the oldest two. And I'm like, Chandler, are you listening to this?

Speaker 1:
[36:49] Yeah, and I have two brothers, so we get it.

Speaker 3:
[36:51] And that's the thing. It's like, there's mental load in that where it's like, okay, I was always me and my sisters were like, okay, what's the gift? And like, who has the card? And where are we taking her to lunch? And my brother's like, are we meeting at two? It's like, yes, day of, come, please. So I think, you know, this is not unique to mothers or to parenting and marriage. But I think the thing about that phase of life is it becomes very overwhelming, right? It happens very quickly and you're in this incredibly new phase of life. And a lot of women feel like they lose a sense of themselves and their identity and their time. And that I think coupled with the crippling mental load can be a lot. And so actually the very first place I suggest starting for a lot of women is starting to get really comfortable with articulating what it is you're experiencing. So I remember when I was first in it, I could not have said the word mental load because I didn't know that word at the time. I could not have said that I'm resentful towards my husband. I know I was frustrated and angry and I knew I had like these intense feelings, I didn't have words for it. I felt a little crazy. I didn't want to tell anybody because I'm like, this is like I'm supposed to be enjoying this phase of life. And like on paper, he's a great dad. So like, how dare I say, like I'm annoyed that he doesn't do these things. And I find that so many women are in that position where they feel really isolated in this and they feel alone and as if like maybe they did something wrong to end up here. And so the very first thing I started doing was I started reading books and I started listening to podcasts about this topic and I listened to all different things. I listened to books about mental load or emotional labor or just motherhood. And I started to form these ideas and like light bulbs would go off. Not everything applied to me, but I'd be like, oh, I think that's what I'm experiencing. I'd listen to a podcast and be like, oh my gosh, I've never heard of the word mental load, but that is 100 percent what I am feeling right now. And once I started to do that, I was able to start talking about it to my therapist. And I will say, I talked to my therapist about this probably for like six months before I ever talked to my husband about it in a meaningful way, because I just needed to be able to kind of like get it all out and start to understand what it was that I was struggling with and what I wanted to accomplish before I could even go to him. And so I always suggest, you know, whether it's a therapist or your mom or your best friend or your sister, like just find somebody you're comfortable talking to and start trying to explain yourself, like explain what you're feeling. Because I think first and foremost, it helps validate for you what you're feeling and it helps you kind of flex the muscle of having these conversations and understanding them. Because if you go into the conversation of like breaking up the tasks with your partner, but you still have like unresolved ideas about what's actually happening, or you're not quite sure where you're landing or what you're hoping to accomplish, it's actually really hard. And I think one of the other things, aside from looking at your partner as a team member and making the invisible labor visible, I always recommend setting very intentional goals. So similar to like setting a KPI or like we're trying to hit this, it's like we are setting a goal. So for my husband and I, we each set individual goals and I recommend everybody do this. Like what's my goal? What's his goal? What's our goal as a couple? So our goal as a couple was to have a more fair share of the labor to run more efficiently because we like really felt like we weren't, and we want to figure out what would be fair for us. My personal goal was I wanted time. I was like, I have no time to go to yoga. I don't have time to see my friends. I barely have time to shower. I need protected time and I can't get it in this circumstance, and so we have to rework how our life operates, so I get time back for myself. And my husband's goal was he's like, I want us to have fun. We never have fun anymore. We spend so much time talking about laundry and doing laundry and taking care of the kids. We don't have time to just like enjoy ourselves and just to have fun. And everything we did from listing out the tasks to talking about these things, working through the ups and downs, we would always come back to those goals and say, well, what are we trying to achieve here? Does this get us more time? Does this help us have more fun? And does this help us get to a more fair share of work? And if it's not doing that, then let's try this a different way, because that's our goal. That's what we're trying to do together. And some people's goals might be, maybe you're a stay-at-home mom, and you don't even want your husband to do the laundry. Like you don't want him to do any more. You just want to feel seen. You just want to feel valued. You want your partner to understand the work that you're doing and not for it to be invisible. Maybe that's simply your goal, which is like, I want the work that I do to be visible and seen and recognized and my value to be important in this family.

Speaker 2:
[41:11] And going back to your first step, which I love your first step because it's taking accountability for like what we can control in our inner world. And like we can control understanding our inner world. We can do that work, whether that be listening, reading, therapy, talking it through whatever gets you there. Like that is our responsibility. With the validation piece is like feeling seen. I feel like this is very big for women. And do you find that, has your community kind of articulated like what that means exactly? Because I've had this conversation before where it's like, I want to feel seen and then I don't really know how to explain it. Like obviously he sees me.

Speaker 3:
[41:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:45] Acknowledgement, like what is it?

Speaker 3:
[41:47] I think there's a difference between being like seen and truly feeling seen. So I'll use the example of like my breakdown moment where I was like, this is my breaking point. My husband had agreed, like we'd slowly started this work. This was before we were super intentional about it where I said, I need you to do more. And he's like, great.

Speaker 2:
[42:01] Just tell me what to do.

Speaker 3:
[42:03] Exactly. And I did, I did. I told him, I said, you know, before I do mornings by myself with the four kids, he leaves by like 6 a.m. So I was like, I need you to make sure the dishwasher is empty. So like if the kids favorite cups in there, a bottle, whatever, I need the dishwasher empty, the dog fed and taken out. So that's one less body I have to worry about in the mornings. And can you make sure the trash is like empty and like not overflowing? Like I don't want to have like a full trash when I'm making breakfast or whatever. And that included the diaper genie. And at the time, I had a two month old, an 18 month old, a four year old and a five year old. So they were really little. And I remember I woke up and I went to go put a diaper in the diaper genie and it was full. And I was like, you got to be kidding me, right? And so then I went to empty it. Rage. A rage, literal rage. And so like I went to empty it and it was so full that I cut my finger on the side. So now I'm bleeding everywhere. So the kids are crying. I'm managing their emotions and like, I'm trying to keep them calm. And I'm like, Paige, don't freak out. It's just trash. It's just trash. Like, don't freak out. I get downstairs. So relatable. Yeah. The dog has not been fed. The dishwasher is full and has not been emptied.

Speaker 1:
[43:03] You're like spiraling.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] You're like, I'm throwing your clothes out of the front yard. Like, what is happening?

Speaker 3:
[43:08] Yes. And I, so I text my husband and I say, why, I just said, why didn't you do this? And he said, oh, sorry, was running late. Now, mind you, guy just had to get himself to work on time. Like, I'm getting four small children and then I have to go to work. I remember responding like, now I'm late. Like, you didn't even see that you leaving all of this for me had an impact. And I remember standing in my kitchen thinking, he doesn't see me. Like, he doesn't see this. He doesn't understand how he's derailed my morning. He doesn't understand that when he didn't empty the diaper that I then had to do that, which put me back five minutes and the 18 month old is yelling at me. And now everybody's crying and that's 10 minutes of me managing toddlers. And then I get downstairs and I don't have what I need. And I'm trying to get all these kids, all the things that they need. Mind you, I don't even eat breakfast till noon. I'm like, how do you not see this?

Speaker 2:
[44:03] We do our makeup in the office. It's the only peace and quiet, the only one time.

Speaker 3:
[44:07] Exactly. And that's what I think it is. He sees the trash. He sees the dishwasher. He sees me. What he didn't see was everything and the impact of it all. He didn't see that by him being late and leaving all of that to me, how much he impacted my morning and the actual impact I had on me and the kids and everything about my day. And to him, it was just like, oh, I was running late. The impact. Yeah, he had no idea about the impact. And I think that's the part of being seen that people want is to be seen, not just for the actual work, but the impact that work has. Because I do the dishwasher, the kids have what they need because I fold the laundry, my daughter has her favorite shirt every two days because I do this. That is the impact that I'm having. And I think that's the missing piece for a lot of women. It's like, yeah, she does the laundry. But they don't think about, she does the laundry and she always makes sure the jersey's washed on time for the game. That's the missing piece, I think, for so many women. So they want to feel seen, not just for the work, but for the value they provide and the impact they have on their family and the way that is meaningful because it is. Well.

Speaker 2:
[45:13] So if anyone needs spoken to. Yeah, wow. Because that was a beautiful example that I am sure every single listener has had the exact same experience with different set of circumstances, maybe, but yes, very relatable. Okay. So if you're wanting to bring this up with your partner, maybe starting with impact and helping them understand, this is what's going on all around that task not being completed or where I'm asking for help. Here's why. Really breaking down the full picture is the way to approach it.

Speaker 3:
[45:43] I think so. And you can go task by task. I did one video a long time ago about the snow gear. We live in New England, so it snows, and the kids have to bring snow stuff to school. And my husband, being helpful, like I said out loud, later tonight I have to pack the kids snow gear. Can you help me? I just put it into, I was like, we need to do this tonight. I was taking it on. I wasn't asking him to do it. But I went and did pick up for daycare, and I came home and he had packed all the snow stuff. And I was like, nice. Thank you. That's great. But then I said, hey, did you make sure to label all of the stuff? And he was like, oh, no, I didn't know we had to label it. And I'm like, yeah, you have to label everything that goes to daycare. Like they all need their stickers and whatever. And then I was talking to him, I was like, you know, you pack them like jigsaw puzzles into these tiny little bags. Like the kids have to be able to like repack this. A three year old can't repack this bag. Like I can't even repack this bag. So we need a different bag. It needs to be waterproof. And like I had to walk him through and I wasn't mad at him. I was like, oh, like he tried. He failed. He tried. But he didn't also have all the information. He hadn't read the email. He had never done it before. He didn't understand that if you sent it in a canvas bag, the canvas bag was going to be disgusting once it got wet and salty and all the things. And so I just slowly said to him, this is what you do when you send snow gear to school. Like you label it, you put it in a waterproof bag. The bag has to be big enough. Like these are all the things you have to know. And now he knows, like now he knows, right? But I think it would have been unfair of me in that moment to be mad at him, right? Cause like he didn't know any of those things. And I think that's the part of the work of helping somebody understand the mental load, which is teaching them those things, those small little details that you know, that they couldn't have known beforehand, right?

Speaker 1:
[47:20] Well, and you also could have easily, which would have been kind of been like, you know what, fine, I'll just do it myself.

Speaker 3:
[47:24] I'll just do it myself. Fine, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[47:25] That's fine.

Speaker 3:
[47:26] Or I could have gotten angry and just not even said anything and just redone it myself. And then he'd still continue on not knowing, right? He would still not know. And so you have to have those conversations. And there's a lot of them. They're always coming up. Even now, like we are still talking about these things because you sign a kid up for dance class and it's like, well, this is what they bring to dance class. And we've never done dance before, but this is what we do at dance now. And so you really have to constantly just be flexing that muscle.

Speaker 1:
[47:53] Well, this has been amazing. I think that you do such a good job of really giving things words. And like you're saying, when you're articulating things, this is what I feel like, you know, you're like Brene Brown. When I first read Brene Brown, I was like, oh, that's the words that I didn't know. And that's, I think, what you've done for, I mean, I think you're doing this now, and I think you've done that for so many women. This has been amazing. And I feel like this is one of our longest ones we've ever done because I feel like we could just go on and on. Yeah. Because this is like, this is so relatable and like the day to day. And all of us have so much going on. And everyone is like, truly, I believe everyone is like trying to do the best they can. And some of that is just like taking that time, stepping back, and then also giving your partner like the benefit of the doubt and then not being, not shaming them for what they do. And thank goodness, you know, hopefully they don't do that to us either, because no one wants to feel like that. And wow, this has been amazing. Paige, where can people find you?

Speaker 3:
[48:45] Thank you so much. That was very kind of you to say all of those things. I feel very flattered going into this my day. You can find me everywhere on social media at she has a Paige Turner or my name, which is Paige Connell. I'm literally pretty much everywhere. LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, all the places. So you can find me. And then I have a website, but all of my information is online.

Speaker 1:
[49:04] Thank you so much. This has been awesome. And thank you guys for listening to the IN IT podcast. We are clearly in it as is Paige. So I hope this was extremely helpful and relatable. And if you liked this episode, don't forget to give us a five star review. See you next time. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[49:18] Thanks. Bye.

Speaker 1:
[49:26] Thank you for listening to IN IT with Jordan Harper and Ashley Buckler.

Speaker 2:
[49:28] We're all just trying to figure it out as we go. If you got something out of this podcast, we'd love if you would leave us a review and share it with someone who you think would like this episode.

Speaker 1:
[49:36] There are a lot of podcasts you could be listening to, and the fact that you chose this one means everything to us. We are so glad to be IN IT with you.