transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] K-Pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi?

Speaker 2:
[00:09] It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor.

Speaker 1:
[00:17] It is our larger honor. No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.

Speaker 3:
[00:28] I participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

Speaker 2:
[00:30] Morning Decisions. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink or sweet vanilla, smooth caramel maybe, or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. This is The Ed Mylett Show.

Speaker 3:
[00:52] All right. Welcome back to the show, everybody. So I have to tell you, you know, I have a small circle of friends that are my closest friends. And when this man was on the show the last time, they never call me and say, hey, great show. Like I'm begging for compliments from these guys all the time. And so I've done 800 episodes. I think they've called me three times. And when this man was on, I got calls from every single one of them. And so they're all going to be very excited that he's back. And I'm excited that he's back. My guest today is Arthur Brooks, you guys. I don't know how to describe him. I think he's like the most interesting man in the world candidate. I guess he's a, I call him, I don't know, a happiness, meaning, human flourishing guru of sorts. But his work kind of crosses over with neuroscience. He's a very bright man, very spiritual man. He's a professor at Harvard and I enjoy his work so much. I look forward to the conversations I've had with him. And he's got a book out now called The Meaning of Your Life, Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. I cannot wait to jump into this. From my own emotional well-being. So Arthur, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 4:
[01:56] Thanks Ed. It's great to see you again.

Speaker 3:
[01:59] Likewise. Likewise. This is so good. So I learned a new word in your book and I'm not sure that I pronounce it right. I want to start with kind of a concept and a time that you describe in the book. It's a German word. I'll butcher it and you clean it up. Because you're the Harvard professor and I'm the guy with the microphone and a camera in his office. So unheimlich. Am I close?

Speaker 4:
[02:22] That's good. Yeah, that's good. Unheimlich. And again, I'm no German expert. That's not my second language. But that's a word. It almost doesn't have a translation. And my daughter taught it to me, actually. It means to not feel, to feel eerily out of place, to not feel comfortable in your home. Like something's not right, and you can't quite put your finger on it. And we know that, you know, something's creepy, you go into a room and everybody's acting real weird or whatever it happens to be. And you know, something's not right. And the reason I brought that word out in the beginning of this new book, The Meaning of Your Life, is because that's how I felt just a very few years ago. I'm an old college professor. I mean, that's seven. I got my Ph.D. 30 years ago, and I taught for a long time, and then I left to run a company just to see if I could actually do it. And I ran the company for 11 years. And then I retired and came back to academia. And I kind of thought I was going to find universities the way that I'd left them. I left the university in 2008 and it was happy. I mean, it was a happier part of life. Everybody was ambitious and getting along and falling in love and making friends. And I mean, like you remember college, right Ed? College was a blast. Yes, exactly. I came back in 2019 and man, it was unheimlich. It was like something wasn't right. It was creepy. I mean, people were sad and angry. Depression had tripled. Anxiety had doubled. And a lot of universities, including my own, more than 50 percent of students were getting counseling or actually seeing a mental health professional. There was loneliness, there was bitterness, there was this really crazy angry activism where everybody was a victim. It was like the Victim Olympics on these campuses. Cancel culture, safe spaces, microaggressions. It was misery. It was like a plague had gone through my village while I was gone. And I thought to myself, well, I guess this is my research now. I guess figuring this one out is why I'm here. When I came back to academia in 2019.

Speaker 3:
[04:31] The reason it's stuck out for me, so I read the whole book, because I just, you know, I got a digital copy. I read the whole thing. That description, though, I almost feel like that's how so many people feel about their entire life, meaning it's familiar, but it doesn't feel like home anymore. And it's really the nature of your work. And I'm not even so sure that I wouldn't describe myself this way more often than I'd like to admit it, that, I don't know, the meaning of life escapes me often. You know, I do work that matters, like what we're doing right now. I've got wonderful family. I've been blessed to build wealth far beyond my talents, that's for sure. But I think sometimes I'm searching for fulfillment, even though I've had a lot of achievement.

Speaker 4:
[05:15] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[05:16] It's really what this book's about, you know.

Speaker 4:
[05:18] It really is. Yeah. It really is. It's the crisis of emptiness that people feel. It's the meaning crisis, which, by the way, is not just part of the human condition. People have always struggled with, you know, what is the meaning of my life, but it's become a phenomenon in our society, in our world, but particularly in the United States, since about 2008. And it affects everybody, you and me and everybody else, but especially people under 30, and especially, most especially, educated people under 30. As a matter of fact, there's this weird psychogenic epidemic, which is just a fancy way of saying, an epidemic of misery that doesn't have a biological origin. There's no virus that we can find, but it's really spreading around and you see it explode after 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012. And so my research is all about why is it that suddenly all of us are struggling to find meaning and young people in particular, can't find the meaning of their lives. What is meaning? Where do they need to go to find it? And how do they need to live differently? That's what this book answers.

Speaker 3:
[06:23] Let's talk about a couple of those answers. That's what's great about his work. He'll describe things in his book. You go, that's me. And then the next part of it is, here's maybe a possible solution or strategy. So the first chapter is the meaning of meaning.

Speaker 4:
[06:35] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[06:35] And then you sort of break down, I think you call it the three components of meaning or happiness. I want you to share those with us because I think that alone is illuminating for a lot of people, it was for me.

Speaker 4:
[06:46] When you don't know what you're looking for, you can't actually find it, generally speaking. So you have to be able to name it. And that's true in anything, by the way. You know, if you say you got to go to Tacoma, but you don't know what a Tacoma is, it's not going to be very helpful. So what I start off with is talking about how we, as behavioral scientists, understand what meaning really is in people's lives. And what it is is a combination of three things. There are three things that if you don't have them, you won't have a sense of the meaning of your life. Number one is you have to have a sense of why things happen the way they do. That's called coherence. And that's the reason that people have a lot of their beliefs. Religion provides a sense of coherence, why things happen the way they do. Science provides a sense of coherence. Personally, I'm both religious and I'm a scientist. Some people, they really go after conspiracy theories. And when you see somebody who falls for every conspiracy theory, it's because they don't have a sense of meaning, and that's because they don't have a sense of coherence in their lives. When people are looking for all these powerful people that are pulling the strings behind everything, that's their search for coherence because they lack a sense of meaning. It's a dead giveaway. They got a meaning crisis, is when you see people that are falling for these things. The second is purpose. Purpose and meaning are not the same thing. Purpose is why you're doing what you're doing, what direction that you're going, what are your goals in life, so that you can make progress. That's the question, where am I going? That's purpose. And you have to be going in a particular direction. If you're not, you're going to be going in circles and your life is going to feel meaningless, which is huge problem for a lot of young people today. And the last is what's called significance. And significance is the answer to why my life matters. Because if your life doesn't matter to anyone, including yourself, you don't have any sense of meaning at all. If nobody loves you, if you don't have a sense of somebody caring about you, you're insignificant, you won't have any meaning to your life. And so those are the three things to go in search of. Why do things happen the way they do? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And why does my life matter? Those are the three big searches to find the meaning of life.

Speaker 3:
[08:57] Yeah, you know, the latter. I remember when my first bout, I always share stuff with my audience that maybe is a little bit more personal than some host might be willing to share. But I remember my grandfather died when I was a little boy. I thought I was a relatively happy kid. My dad was an alcoholic and a drug addict, and I don't recall whether my dad had gotten sober yet or not. But I remember my grandfather died. I found myself a few weeks later stumbling into this loop. You kind of call it a doom loop. Right. It was more like, oh, he's gone. Like why? Why does life matter?

Speaker 4:
[09:30] Right.

Speaker 3:
[09:30] And I think in my case, like the most unhappy I've been is the third element. Like does any of this matter?

Speaker 4:
[09:37] Right.

Speaker 3:
[09:38] Obviously, because of my faith, I've been reborn in that and that does have a matter to me. But I got to share, you talk about this in the book, and I want you to maybe elaborate, even if it's something that's not in the book, because I'm curious this for me, for myself. I know a lot of people that live in the middle. They're not really happy, they're a little bit melancholy, but they have moments of happiness. The people that I actually know, the most unhappy, and by the way, this is not all of them. When I have to rank my unhappiest friends, they're actually externally more successful than the other group. Right, meaning. Success is almost external success, whether they got the money or the house or the car, maybe even the relationship in some cases. They're actually unhappier. It's almost like their success contributed to their doom, almost like is this all there is type thing.

Speaker 4:
[10:30] That's right. That's right. And there's a reason for that. There's an absolute reason for that. When you're going for to find what you're looking for in life, what we call extrinsic motivation, that is to say stuff happening to you, I'm only going to be happy when I have enough success. That's looking for extrinsic outside rewards as opposed to doing the work inside, intrinsically looking for the rewards. You're not going to find it and you're not going to find meaning. You're going to be aimless. It's going to be a big problem. I tell my students on the first day of class, you think because the world's told you, my students are by the way, 28 years old, MBA students at the Harvard Business School. They want to grow up and be Ed Mylett. That's what they want to be when they grow up. They want to be successful like you. They believe when they have the money, the power, the admiration, the prestige, the position, the relationships, then happiness will come for free. I say, no, you got to do the work. You got to point to the happiness by asking the questions and doing the work in your relationships and all the stuff I talk about in this book. And then, then you'll be successful enough. And the problem is for all the strivers that haven't done the work, there's no enough. There isn't ever enough. And that's the reason that there's so much misery among some of the most accomplished people in the world.

Speaker 3:
[11:46] Gosh, it's so, by the way, everybody, I can just tell you as someone who's maybe had a little bit of that success thing, it's really true. If you don't do this other work, the antithesis is written about in the book as well. This, I've never, well, I heard it in my spiritual life in my Christian walk, but nowhere else in a book like this. And you actually say that suffering, everyone, lean in on this, okay? This might be cool for you to all take a different meaning when you're suffering. That suffering may actually contribute to your ability to find meaning, that there's a purpose to suffering. You ought to get something for your suffering.

Speaker 4:
[12:25] Yeah. As a matter of fact, that's one of the great ways that people who are finding meaning of their life actually find it is they stop trying to avoid their suffering. This is an interesting thing. There's a formula that the Tibetan Buddhists have, that suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance. Pain times resistance. And when you're trying to lower your pain to get rid of your suffering, it's pretty ineffective. Why? Because your pain is going to come back. It's interesting that people who baby their back because their back hurts wind up with a lot more back pain. They always do because they get weaker and they become more sedentary. The way to actually to make your suffering more productive is not by lowering the pain, but by lowering your resistance to the pain. To be saying, I'm not going to resist. I'm going to learn how to grow and learn. By the way, you and I as Christians, what's the most amazing thing to me is that Christian people who are trying to avoid their suffering, they worship a man who's suffering. And we don't want to suffer. Are you kidding me? My savior is suffering. And I'm like, yeah, but me, I don't know, man. It's like, I don't want to go a couple extra days waiting for that money. I don't want to have an argument with my wife. My savior is on the cross, but me, nah. No, I'm annoyed because I can't get, because the cable's out.

Speaker 3:
[13:47] By the way, as you were talking, I was thinking that very thing. I was thinking of Jesus when you were talking. I think sometimes we can flate that he died for our sins and that we're saved, that somehow that means we all escape suffering as well.

Speaker 4:
[13:59] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I was taping this the day after the reading in the Catholic Church was where John the Baptist's followers, John the Baptist is in prison. And his followers come and find Jesus and say, are you the one we've been waiting for? But what they're really saying is, aren't you the one we've been waiting for? Why aren't you doing something about John who's over there in prison? And Jesus actually says in no small and indirect way, this is the point. It's like, you gotta suffer. This is the will of God is to actually suffer sometimes. But the reward is so much greater. And the truth is even for those of us who are, for those who are listening to us who are not religious believers, you must lean in to your suffering because only, because growth and learning comes from suffering. Suffering is your teacher. You want to find the meaning of your life. This is one of the six ways you got to do it, is learning how to understand and live with your suffering.

Speaker 3:
[14:58] Love you guys so good. By the way, those of you that are not religious, we're about to shift to neuroscience in a minute. So hang in there. We're going to go to the brain. But before we do that, I want to ask you about one other element that I think can bring meaning to life, which is service. Yeah. Speaking of Jesus, what's he do before he dies? He gets his guys together and washes their feet, right? So what about that element of finding something that you serve, that you care for, that you love? I know it's in the book, but they haven't read the book yet. So what about that element of finding meaning in one's life in service?

Speaker 4:
[15:34] This is one of the other six means of doing so is by transcending yourself. One of the things that people don't often understand is that Mother Nature doesn't care if we're happy at all. Mother Nature just wants us to survive and pass on our genes. Happiness and meaning, that's our business, that's our moral aspiration as opposed to our animal impulse, which is such a beautiful thing that we have this incredible brain that allows us to choose between animal impulse and moral aspiration. And we're doing it all day long. But Mother Nature says, focus on yourself all the time, because that's going to be good for you. It's good for getting another meal or getting another mate. It's horrible for your happiness. It's horrible for your sense of meaning in life. And so what you need to do is to stop focusing on yourself. And that's one of the reasons that we talk, I talk in this book about this method of finding meaning, which is transcendence. And that means transcending yourself by standing it off, something greater than you, maybe through religion, maybe through nature, maybe through music, maybe through philosophy, and focusing on others and not just yourself, focusing on the needs of other people. It's so transcendent and it gives you so much meaning. The fast path to finding the meaning of your life is to stop focusing on yourself and go serve other people who need you. You will experience meaning.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[20:05] Right.

Speaker 3:
[20:06] And I wonder, do we get the life we're also looking for? In other words, do we scan? Is there a part of our brain that has habituated itself into its condition to scan our environment, scan our life to deliver to us what we're most familiar with?

Speaker 4:
[20:26] Right. No, of course, of course. And that's, you know, people have always done that. I mean, the things that you're familiar with are the things that you actually see, the things you're actually aware of. But the point that you're making about The Matrix is really important. So for our listeners and viewers who are not super familiar with this, The Matrix was one of the most popular movies of the year in 1999 when it came out. And it had this crazy science fiction plot in which something, I don't know, maybe you'd call it an artificial intelligence, crazy computers were actually controlling humanity, and they were taking their energy from humans. And the way that they did that was by anesthetizing humans, keeping them in pods, sucking off their energy and playing a simulation into the human mind. Well, guess what, friends? We're in the matrix. We're actually living a simulation. If your life is largely one that's simulated through a screen is mediated by, you know, you're going to work on Zoom and you're dating on apps and your friends are on social media and your sense of accomplishment is coming through gaming and on and on and on and on, then what's actually happening is it's not real life, it's a simulation of real life. And your brain isn't made to do that. Your brain simply can't do that. And here's what's going on and here's the neuroscience Ed that we promised we'd talk about. What happens is when you're in the matrix, when you're in the simulation, you're being relegated to the left hemisphere of your brain. The left hemisphere of your brain is all the what and how to questions including all the technology and hustle and grind. And the right side of your brain is all the mystery and the meaning, all of the things you really care about, all the love that you actually care about. That's the right side of your brain. When you're online all day, you're on the left side of your brain. But on the right side of your brain, that's where you answer and deal with meaning questions. So not only do you not know the meaning of your life when you're living in the simulation, you're not even asking the questions and that's why life feels empty. The one thing you can't simulate is the meaning of life.

Speaker 3:
[22:26] Oh my gosh, you guys. By the way, that's the book title, The Meaning of Your Life. Go get it, you guys. There's not a lot of books that I'm really kind of firm on with you. Like go get the book, okay? I'm telling you, first of all, it's also an easy read. But I got to tell you, so many of you, these are the questions that I get asked the most. Have you had a moment in your own life, like a seminal moment on this topic? Is that why you wrote the book? Was there like a moment? I'm sure there's been a series, but is there one that stands out where you were suffering or struggling with this?

Speaker 4:
[22:57] Yeah, I mean, I did have a significant meaning crisis. Now, not to the extent that I see with my students who don't remember the before times, by the way, who don't remember before people were living in the matrix. But I was a CEO for a long time and it was a great run. I ran a company in Washington DC for 11 years and I retired at 55, which was six years ago for those who were keeping score. That's how old I am. When I retired, I was just spent, I was empty, the tank was empty. I'd been working 80 hours a week. I made a bunch of mistakes during those years personally. I hadn't paid enough attention to my family. Furthermore, I'd get more and more addicted to my devices as pacifying me and distracting me. The result of it was that I just wasn't all there. My life really didn't have a sense of meaning. Look, I've always been strong in my religious views, but none of us is safe. None of us is safe from this. Every Christian or believer or anything is that that's not your insurance policy. You still have to do the work, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. So I did what Catholics have done for more than a thousand years when they don't know what to do. I went for a very long walk. That's what we do. I walked across the northern part of Spain. This is called the Camino de Santiago. It's an ancient walk from 1,100 years ago. And The Way is a Martin Sheen movie from, I think, 2003 that made it really popular again. And I did it. I did it with my wife. And I was like, I'm trying to find something. I'm just trying to find it. And we walked and we walked and we walked. So what did heaven call it? I was doing something really repetitive with my beloved, holding hands, praying, going to mass every day. I didn't have my devices. I wasn't in the matrix anymore. I was able to think deeply. I was asking and discussing very deep questions with my beloved. I was living in a different way. And by the end, meaning found me. Meaning found me. My mission of my life found me. And I thought to myself, what's this all about? And that's when I went back to academia. That's when I retired and went back to the university, which was very unheimlich to go back to the beginning of this conversation. I said, aha, God put me back at the university because my little problem and solving it was the solution to a very big problem that I'm finding here.

Speaker 3:
[25:27] So do you recommend, I mean, let's just get into the teeth of it a little bit. Is it, is this device thing our primary enemy on this simulation on this matrix? And if you do believe that, then are you, if we were best friends, you're talking to your best friends here, there's a couple million of them. Would you say, hey, not just put it down, but maybe one day a week, Sundays, no devices. Is there anything like that? Just escape it. So you can actually feel a little for briefly, feel what it's like to be out of it.

Speaker 4:
[25:59] Yeah, for sure. And I have calls in this book about actually how to do that. So the devices aren't the whole problem. The biggest problem is that our society has become one big machine. That's the real problem. I mean, the way that we treat work, the way that we treat life, the way that we treat school is very anti-human. It's not based on relationships anymore. It's based on protocols and metrics and efficiency. That's really what it comes down to. And the devices are just kind of a metaphor for the whole way that we're living our life. Where our species should be called homo economicus, because that's kind of how we're living, man. I mean, it's like you go to school and they say, you're an idiot if you're not studying STEM. You're studying literature and philosophy? What a moron, right? These humanistic things that you're actually studying. And the result is that all the way that we deal with each other is in this very mechanistic way. And that's one of the reasons that strivers, people who are college educated, they're suffering the most because they're most inside the machine of our society. They're most likely to be doing the kind of work that's highly, highly efficiency oriented and machine oriented. You find the people who have blue collar jobs, they're doing better emotionally than people who have white collar jobs today. You find that people who didn't go to college, on average, you're doing better emotionally than people who did go to college. That's because people, the more that you're in the white collar, college educated set, the more you're getting pushed through the machine and the more your life is actually going to be geared toward the screens. That's absolutely the case. So that's the big danger that we're seeing today. So how do you get out of it? And again, I have a whole chapter on how to get clean. Number one, you can actually can't go live in a new way if you don't get clean in the first place. And I've been in and out of doing research on addiction communities for a long time. And the whole thing is you can't go live a new way until you've actually gotten clean. And so getting clean is step one, is step one. And I've got protocols on how to deal with this, with your life and very specifically with your devices. And here's the way to do it. An hour after you wake up, no devices for an hour. Why? Because that sets your day. During meals, never using devices, never eat. And always, if you can, eat with other people and never eat with devices. And last but not least, never actually have your devices for the last hour before you go to sleep and don't have it in your bedroom. This is the protocol. Now, there are other zones. We shouldn't have any devices in any classrooms. No small screens in any classrooms. In America, from kindergarten through PhD, it is insanity that we're doing this to our kids. It's pure, straight on child abuse and neglect is what it comes down to. And last but not least, we need a break. If you're going to take a Sabbath break, that's great. But I recommend at least four days a year. I'd go on a spiritual retreat four days a year. No devices, the game changer. If you do just the things that I've talked about here, your life is going to start feeling real different.

Speaker 3:
[28:55] So good, Arthur. So as you and I are recording this morning, I'm sure you saw this, that Rob Reiner and his wife were killed.

Speaker 4:
[29:09] Or murdered.

Speaker 3:
[29:10] Or murdered. And it sounds as if it was their son. And the only reason that I bring this up is that a little while ago, I was introduced to this situation and that this young man was struggling. The reason I bring it up is that, and the struggle without being too personal or specific, because it may end up being that that wasn't the case, but I'm pretty sure that it was. No, and I'm sure he suffered from mental illness as well, but having said all that, there was no depth of relationships in his life, including the one he claimed with his father. And so the reason I bring this up is you bring it up in the book. Now, this is an extreme example. But even in my own life, people would say, gosh, you got so many friends. They've all these well-known people or whatever. And I always, after they say that, I think I do have, my friendships are wide.

Speaker 4:
[30:04] Right.

Speaker 3:
[30:05] Only a couple are deep.

Speaker 4:
[30:06] Right.

Speaker 3:
[30:07] I wish I had more depth of relationships with people. I wish I had gone deeper with certain people, so to speak. And you talk about this in the book, and I think it's a skill set that, especially young people have never learned. Their surface relationships, their digital relationships, because of the pandemic, they literally were away from one another. And I think it's one of the most dangerous places to be in your life, is not building deeper relationships. I'm pretty sure that that was one element of what took place today with Rob and his son. Can you just elaborate on that and any skill, I know you agree with it, any skill sets that you would suggest to somebody to be better? Because I think people listen, go, I would like deeper friendships.

Speaker 4:
[30:56] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[30:57] I'd like to be closer to my own spouse.

Speaker 4:
[31:00] Yeah, yeah. So the way to think about this, Ed, it's a great point. And I do talk about this an awful lot in the book, because the solution to a lot of this is loving better and deeper, but love is what you do with people, right? You don't love things, you love people. You use things, by the way, you don't use people. And that really points out this idea, this important point, that a lot of people today, they think they have a lot of friends. If they're very successful, for example, I'll say, are your friends real friends or deal friends? Real and deal, and you know the difference. There's nothing wrong with having people who are useful to you, but you got to have people who are useless to you. It's very important. Then I say, do you have real friends or virtual friends? And the brain cannot accommodate virtual friends. It can't. Our brains are still the same as they were 250,000 years ago. And that is to say that we make our real relationships and our biochemistry, it actually produces neuro-peptides like oxytocin in our brain that bond us to other people. When we're in person and we have eye contact and touch, and especially when we're sitting around the campfire, eating a bunch of yak meat with each other and talking about our day, that's how we actually bond with each other. And that's how our brains are designed. Whether you think God did it or just plain old evolution, that's a fact. That's a neurobiological fact. And you're not going to get it when it's all deal, and you're going to get almost none of it if it's all virtual. And so those are the two things to stop. Now, one thing you pointed out that's really important, which is that as married couples, married couples break up when they go from real love to deal love. It's always the case. And so what you find is, for example, I mean, when couples break up after five years is because they actually never became friends. They were passionate about each other, but they never became companions in a real friendship way. But when couples break up after 25 years, they all have almost all have the same thing in common. It was all the business of raising the kids. It was deal friends, deal friends, deal friends. Scott, you're useful to me, I'm useful to you. We have this one, the only thing that we have in common, like you have with your colleagues, what you have in common is the business. What you have in common with your spouse is the kids. And the kids grow up and they move away and you talk to them once a week. And you're looking at each other like, who the heck are you? Who is this person sitting across the table from me? Well, I don't really have much in common with you. And that's when they break up, because it was all deal, no real.

Speaker 3:
[33:28] They also create, gosh, you guys, this is so good. Now, are you like me when you're listening to Arthur reflecting on your own world and your own life, your own friendships? There's, by the way, that in and of itself is healthy. Some self-reflection, some introspection, some self-awareness. We lack so much of this in our world today. And obviously, these devices are part of it. I put devices in that category, though, of distraction, etc. But a lot of people legitimately would say, that's all true, but I am really busy. And I want to talk about busyness. So, someone driving in their car right now is like, this is so good, but I am currently dropping my kids off at school. Then I'm going to get to work. Then after work, I've got this thing I got to go do. I'd like to get to the gym. I got to pick my kids back up. Then we got soccer practice. Then we got little league. I got this thing I got to do at church. I got to make sure I call my mom. I've got this hobby I do on the side. I'd like to maybe start my personal brand to write a book. And all of a sudden, it's busy. And you almost call busyness, I think you refer to it as like emotional anesthesia. Are people, is it that they're so busy? Or is it that they're creating all of this busyness so that they don't have to be introspective or self-reflective?

Speaker 4:
[34:39] It's a very profound question. And it's a question that almost answers itself for everybody listening to us. You know, it's like I have to do all these things. Well, no, you're doing all those things because there's one thing that humans hate, which is boredom. One thing that humans hate, which is idleness. But here's the point. Once again, the nature doesn't care if you hate it. Life was boring, and that's the way your brain is supposed to work for a lot of the time. I guarantee you that there's one thing that great-grandfather Mylett never said to great-grandma, which is, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today. And the reason is because his brain was working the way it was supposed to work. His hypothalamic-pituitary axis wasn't getting flooded arbitrarily. And suddenly, from the outside world, because he was bored a lot, but he didn't think his life was boring. He didn't come home and complain his life was boring either. His life was just his life. And that's the way life is supposed to work. But we figured out through modern life, through the machine, modern life is a machine. Modern life is a simulation. And we've created it because we don't like being bored. What happened?

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[37:46] It's when you're bored, is there's a set of structures in your brain called the default mode network, and it turns on when you're doing nothing else. And we don't like it, but you need it to find the meaning of your life. You need it to understand yourself. It's a little uncomfortable, especially when you're not used to it. That's by the way, that's the reason that everybody has their best big ideas in the shower is because there's nothing to do in there except stand under the water. Your phone isn't in there, I hope. I mean, it turns out it's waterproof. It could take it in there, but don't do that. The touch screen doesn't work right. And we need more times. So I prescribe boredom to people, to my students. I make them actually have periods. I make them stop listening to music or especially even to podcasts during their workout. They're not listened to, no headphones during workout. I asked them to start commuting without headphones. Their walk to school or their drive to work without headphones. Having regular periods of actual quiet and introspection. And at first, it's like screaming inside your head. And then pretty soon, you start to feel more equilibrated, and then calmer, and then better because of that one intervention.

Speaker 3:
[38:58] It's really unbelievable what we're talking about, because that's literally what I just spent the last four days on. By the way, the way you activate the default mode network in your brain, you guys, is close your eyes and pray.

Speaker 4:
[39:06] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:07] You've been taking away all the external. Yeah. I love talking to you, and I wish that we could do it a lot longer, but I want to put the, I want to turn the camera literally on to you. And if someone asked you, they ran into you, Starbucks, they say, hey, I heard you on Ed Mylett Show. I got the book, The Meaning of Your Life. I'm really working on these different strategies you have in the book. I'm more self-reflective. I'm more self-aware. I'm trying to activate both parts of my brain on a regular basis. But if someone said to you, Mr. Brooks, what's the meaning of your life?

Speaker 4:
[39:39] Right.

Speaker 3:
[39:39] If your grandkids were to ask you that.

Speaker 4:
[39:42] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:42] What's the answer to that question for you? What's the meaning of your life?

Speaker 4:
[39:46] The meaning of my life is that I was placed on earth by God to serve others, to lift others up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas that God has graced me with the knowledge to actually share with others. That's the meaning of my life. The meaning of my life is love. Love is reflected through my family and friend relationships, and love that I can actually bring to other people is a refraction of the divine love of God. That's what I'm trying to do every single day, largely in the secular world, with my show, with my university teaching, whatever it happens to be, and certainly through my books. That's the meaning of my life. The meaning of my life is to love and serve.

Speaker 3:
[40:23] Guys, did you see how reflexive that answer was? That's indicative of somebody who, what a beautiful answer, by the way. That's indicative of somebody who's done the work that he's referencing here. He's walking the walk, literally. Talked about those walks.

Speaker 4:
[40:38] Yeah, you gotta walk your way into it.

Speaker 3:
[40:41] But I wonder, everybody, if I asked you that question, I say this as a friend, I ask myself this question.

Speaker 4:
[40:47] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[40:47] The answer be that reflexive.

Speaker 4:
[40:49] How about you, Ed? Can you tell me yours?

Speaker 3:
[40:51] I am most at home, most happy, feel the most valuable and the most loved myself when I am loving and serving other people, and connecting with them too. I love, I'll tell you what I've built the ability to do, Arthur, that I'm really proud of. I look, people would call it giftedness, but since you're a man of faith, I'll say it to you. I am fascinated when I meet people of finding what I call the Christ in them. What's the two or three things God gave them? Like this thing is that they're, in your case, it's so obvious that he gave you this incredible heart to love your family and the Lord, but this unbelievable intellect. And then he combined it with this tremendous ability to articulate it. Those are like, that's the Christ in you. I see it in you, right? And that could be someone's humor, their beauty, their nurturing skills, their toughness, their relentlessness, their touch. I love that and I love, I feel I'm in best service to people and feel the most meaning in my own life when I point Christ in them out to them and then get to believe that that's why they were born and that that's why they're special and that they do have value and they do have meaning. I feel the most alive when I do that and I do feel it's a gift of mine. I think that's why the interviews are usually pretty darn good.

Speaker 4:
[42:08] I think there are two and to say there's one thing that I think that people can, as no doubt they will see this because they're fans of yours. But to take it to a really very deep level on this, everybody has something that you need. It's interesting because I had a student ask me one time, I was talking about this that to give also means to give somebody else the gift of letting them give to you. Because that's the essence of humanity. One of my students, he challenged me, he said, well, we were in New York at the time. I said, what about a homeless guy out on the street? What does he have to give to me? I thought about it and he stumped me. I went home and I prayed about it and I thought about it. I thought to myself, I think I had the answer. I went out and the next time I met a homeless guy, which is five minutes later on the street in New York City. He asked for something and I don't give money to homelessness because there's a lot of pathology and addiction. But I got him some food and then I said this, I said, and I need to ask you for something too. And he said what? And he said, I need you to pray for me and my family. Because God hears the cries of the poor. I literally needed his purse and so do all of us. So I challenge everybody here to think about what it actually means to be needed, what dignity actually means. To find Christ in every person means to find Christ and to see the face of Jesus in the homeless man and to ask him for your prayers and to find something that everybody can actually give in the spirit of the dignity they need too.

Speaker 3:
[43:51] You guys, how good are these conversations that you and I have? These are so good. All right, I'm supposed to let you go because I only promised you a certain window of time. Will you just, every time you write one of these, just come back, okay?

Speaker 4:
[44:06] I love it. I love your show. I love what you're actually doing in the service that you're providing for everybody. And your own journey of finding meaning in your life and bringing more service and love to other people is really an inspiration to everybody. Because here's the thing, it's very easy to look at you and go, hey man, Ed Mylett's got a lot of dough. He's got it made. He's in Punta Vidra. He's got multiple houses. I don't know what he got, a helicopter or whatever. The whole point is that you must be happy. And that's actually not how the journey works. That's not it. One thing that you and I both know, you'll never be perfectly happy in this life, right? I mean, you can be happier. There's only one place where you're going to be happy. And that's afterward. And so the whole point is that this life, that pilgrimage I made across Northern Spain, life is a pilgrimage. And having the meaning unveil itself to you through doing the work that we're actually talking about, that you have an enviable life or continuing to do the work just like everybody else, that's the key takeaway, isn't it?

Speaker 3:
[45:09] Yes, absolutely. Also, I was just thinking as you were talking, that the idea that this notion that you believe you're supposed to be happy all the time is a fallacy, and that standard is unfair. It's the best of life, the points you made earlier about suffering. You could just think when you're in a great, you know, you and I would refer to it as the Holy Spirit, other people might refer to it as frequency. Acting with another good person and goodwill, and there's fellowship between two people, as you said earlier, and that are both trying to contribute to good. You just, you can't help but feel grateful and be happy. Two or more are gathered, the Lord is present. And I actually, I mean this like sincerely, like when I'm with you and we talk and both, you know, it's been digital both times, I feel the goodness of the world. I feel God when I talk with you. And that's just, that's a compliment to you, but it's also just this, this what we're doing right here. What we're doing together, and you could be doing it in a coffee shop with a friend, means you're a homeless person, everybody. That's part of the meaning of life, of what you just experienced with Arthur and I here today, at least in my opinion.

Speaker 4:
[46:12] Me too, me too, my brother. I appreciate the time with you, I value it very much, and thanks to everybody who are listening to us today. I hope it's valuable and uplifting for them too.

Speaker 3:
[46:23] It certainly is. I don't need to push the book, but I'll do it one more time. The Meaning of Your Life, Arthur Brooks, you guys go get it and share this episode. Someone needs this one and you know it. Okay, everybody, God bless you. Max Outt.

Speaker 2:
[46:36] This is The Ed Mylett Show.

Speaker 5:
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