transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] We have had so many guests on this show talk about how powerful the outdoors can be for kids, especially kids with ADHD or different ways of learning and processing the world. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, a language disorder, or really any kind of learning difference, I want to share a podcast that I think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box. It's parents just being honest with each other in a really safe, welcoming space about the highs and lows of raising neurodivergent kids. And what I love about it is how real it is. There was one story about a mom who had this big career running a major podcast division, and she realized she hadn't been home to see her daughter before bed for weeks. And at the same time, she was starting to notice these little moments, like her daughter freezing up during a simple preschool performance and just having that gut feeling like something's different here. And then all the doubt that comes with that, like other people saying she seems fine while you're sitting here thinking, but I'm her parent and I know her. This mom eventually stepped back in and reconnected and created little games together just to help her daughter communicate better. It's such a good reminder that connection doesn't have to be complicated. It just has to be intentional. So if that interests you, go check it out. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Welcome to The 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. My name is Ginny Yurich. I'm the founder of 1000 Hours Outside. I'm back for the second time as a duo, David Thomas and Sissy Goff. Welcome.

Speaker 2:
[01:18] We are so happy to be with you.

Speaker 3:
[01:21] Always, always.

Speaker 1:
[01:22] Look at this pile of books that I have of yours plus the kids' ones. I don't even know if you can see it. I just have been so impacted by the way that you write, the compassion in your words, the hope that you bring, and so I am thrilled, beyond thrilled that you have a new book coming out called Capable. This is a book about teaching kids and adults, about their strengths, their skills, and different strategies that they can use to build resilience. Can you give us the back story of, I always am curious about why this, you had these kids books that came out about the Daystar dogs, with the Daystar dogs as heroes, and one of them is about learning to share the spotlight, a lesson about jealousy, and this one is about a lesson in self-control, happy finds her calm. So I'm always like, how do you pick your topics? So you talk in the book Capable a lot about the current state of things, and that a lot of kids, and possibly adults too, are not wanting to take risks, they're not wanting to ask someone to prom, they're not wanting to get their driver's license. So you've seen this change over the last 30 years, what's going on?

Speaker 2:
[02:26] Such a great question Ginny. And as to why we write what we write, being therapists in over 30 years now, as you said, and sitting with kids and families, I think our response is always to write where we're the most concerned. And it feels like there has been this growing risk avoidance, just like you said, in our culture among kids. And I think parents with the very best of intentions don't know what to do. And so it feels like these two threads of kids are more and more risk averse, kids are struggling with mental health more and more, which is contributing not only to the risk aversion, but also to parents feeling paralyzed and what to do. We've been doing this a while now, and so we're getting a little louder in the things we feel stronger about. And one of those things is we feel like there are a lot of parenting experts out there that aren't helping, that are in fact even making things worse. And we're sitting with parents, I mean, David and I talk about it all the time, daily who say, I've been following this person, I'm trying to do all these things that I keep hearing about, and it's not working. And it's because so much of what we're doing is reactive, rather than how do we proactively shore kids up, where they're ready to take risk, not only take risks, but handle the challenges that are inevitably going to come in this life.

Speaker 1:
[03:47] I love the answer because it's a stew. It feels like there's a whole pot of things going on. So you talked about in this book, you say in 30 years of counseling kids and families, you've never been more concerned, and you talk about the comfort zones of kids keep getting smaller and smaller. But what's interesting to me is that it's like a societal problem where, okay, why don't you want to get your license? Well, because no one's hanging out. Yes. No one's asking friends to do things. They feel awkward. That was one of the things that came up in the book. I'm so tired of trying with my friends. It never works. I invite them. They don't invite back. Can you talk about this new phenomenon then of coming to you and then bringing that up and saying, I need to switch schools, thinking it's going to be better somewhere else?

Speaker 3:
[04:31] I can't tell you the number of times I've heard a version of that story. I would say first thought to that great question is, we talk a lot about how often every correction can be an overcorrection. Think on for a lot of parents listening who may have grown up with parents that they just didn't really feel seen or understood or heard in a lot of different moments. It was maybe a bit of a my way or the highway type mentality that caused an overcorrection of, I want to hear everything my kids are saying. I want them to in all moments feel seen and heard and understood. We're the first to say we're huge advocates of being attuned to your kids, being connected with your kids, hearing them, helping them develop their voice. But there is a point where we move beyond the just listening to helping kids to Sissy's point, navigate things, navigate their emotions, navigate the hard situations, navigate the things that I feel overwhelmed and afraid of. And it's as if we swung way far out in a great direction of listening, but never got back to that healthy middle ground of helping kids navigate too. And so we're seeing all the evidence of that and how it shows up in parents' questions. Like I never dreamed 30 years ago when I started this work that I would have a parent ask me, what do I do with a boy who doesn't want to get his driver's license? I never dreamed I'd get that question because I didn't know a single teenager when I was growing up who wasn't chomping at the bit to get their license. I never dreamed I'd be having the conversation I had even last night with a parent who asked me, do you think it's a bad idea to send them to preschool because they seem really overwhelmed all the time at drop off? Believing that opportunity to separate out and experience, I have safe, trustworthy adults in my world who are going to come back and get me, and I'm going to enjoy getting to be with friends. The second guessing that Sissy talked about, we're seeing greater and greater evidence. Where parents are defaulting to experts and less and less trusting their own intuition, just not believing they have all that they need to really care for the kids and adolescents in their lives.

Speaker 1:
[06:39] I love that this unique part of the book is that it really is for the parent and the kid. I don't think that exists too much. Like you read a book and you have all your other books, you have so many books. Let's talk about the books. Are my kids on track? Of course. There's one, The Worry-Free Parent, so that's dealing for parents. Then there's The Worry-Free Girls, and then there's Emotionally Strong Boys, and there's Strong and Smart, and then there's these kids books, and there's so many books. I'm like, but this is so unique when you say capable. It's for the kid and it's for the adult. Trying to navigate this, like you said, day and age with all these influencers and all of this advice that's coming in and the over-correction and trying to figure out what to do with technology. Can we tack on one more thing? Because you go through the statistics in. This book, one in seven 10 to 19-year-olds will experience a mental health disorder. Anxiety disorders affect approximately 15 to 20% of the population. The number of people who are in this book is almost the same as the number of people who are in this book. It's a mental health disorder. Anxiety disorders affect approximately 15 to 20 percent of children. This is one-fifth of our kids. You talk about the increase in suicide. So the statistics are high, and something else that's changed beyond the not wanting to risk is the language. You say the inflation of language around normal emotions is a newfound concern. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Speaker 2:
[08:12] Yes. Ginny, when we were all growing up, we were a good bit younger than we are. But I think the worst thing we could think to say to our parents was, I want to run away if we were really mad. Now, without a doubt, what kids say is, I want to kill myself. Kids aren't any longer saying, I'm worried. They're saying, I have anxiety. They're not saying, I'm sad. They're saying, I'm depressed. They're using this really big language to describe emotions. The hard thing is sometimes it's very true. I mean, we are seeing, as you just said, the statistics, the mental health concerns are rising significantly among kids. But now for kids who are struggling, maybe not to that degree, to feel heard, they feel like they have to use the same language. And I tell the story in the book, but I had a group counseling session with a group of high school girls. And I said to them, kind of honestly thinking this was a phenomenon, I was seeing more and more. I said, how do you think girls are defining themselves today? And she said, well, the group said all the things we would know, popularity, extracurriculars, academics, relationships. And then she said, this one girl said, I think we're defining ourselves by our mental health issues. And she said, it's one of the first things people will say about themselves. I have anxiety or I have depression. And she said, my concerns about that are twofold. Well, she didn't say twofold, but she said I have two big concerns about that. One, that we are literally defining ourselves by those words, and it becomes a part of our identity. And two, that we're taking away the power of the words for the kids who really are experiencing those things. And Ginny, I love what you're talking about because this too is about kids and it's about grownups because I think we're jumping on board. I saw a mom, well, probably a year and a half ago now that came in and said to me, she had a seventh grader and she said, I think my daughter has rejection sensitivity dysphoria. And I remember thinking, well, I don't know what that is.

Speaker 1:
[10:22] RSD.

Speaker 2:
[10:22] Right, exactly. And then thinking what seventh grader doesn't have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, I sure did when I was growing up.

Speaker 1:
[10:30] Probably I still do have it.

Speaker 2:
[10:32] Yes, totally. And I just it makes me sad for kids that were jumping on board and pathologizing normal experiences that yes, can be challenging, but that are a part of life so that kids who I think can internally struggle to think something's wrong with me, then become defined by what they believe is wrong with them. And as a side note, I've heard rejection sensitivity dysphoria more and more in the last year and a half. It's become so much more commonplace.

Speaker 1:
[11:03] What an interesting thing to have this view because you're working with so many kids and families about what has changed. And I think that is like the powerhouse that you have, the two of you and working at Daystar and all that you offer in the Nashville area. It's interesting because you might be like, well, yeah, I was worried when I was a kid. I didn't call it anxiety. But everyone else is calling it anxiety today. Maybe it's not that big of a deal. You don't, you just don't have as many touch points. You don't know what other people were saying in their homes, maybe they were saying it. And I just was using a different word. And so you come along and say, no, there are changes. And what's so interesting with that one you just brought up, Sissy, that's like super current. I've not heard that yet.

Speaker 2:
[11:47] Yes, but it's catching on.

Speaker 1:
[11:49] The book lays out, this is changing, this is changing. These different things are changing. So one of the things that you do wonderfully and capable is you go through your podcast, it's called Raising Boys & Girls. And you go through and you talk about what are some challenges for girls? What are some challenges for boys specifically for them? What are some challenges for parents? And you go through the mother daughter relationship, the mother son relationship. What about dads and daughters, dads and their boys? So fantastic information. I want to talk about that. And then we're going to go through all these sort of components. There's a couple, we'll touch on a couple, of learning to be more capable and competent, like flexibility. Can you shift the seats at your dinner table? That's such a great idea. Can everybody just rotate one spot when you eat dinner? So we'll start with you, Sissy. You have a beautiful verse in here. You say it's your favorite verse when it comes to girls. Can you talk about the verse, the Psalms 144-12, and some of the specific challenges for girls? One of the things that really stuck out with me was, stuck out to me was the statistic. Oh, it's so sad. Between the ages of 8 and 14, a girl's confidence falls by 30 percent, and the median age of onset of anxiety is 11.

Speaker 2:
[12:56] Yes. Yes. It's so significant. I think girls are, I mean, girls are certainly leading the statistics, and the three struggles I talk about, that I'm hearing the most from girls, are in the arenas of feelings, failings, and fear. I think all of those things crash together for girls and do. Exactly as you said, their confidence plummets through puberty, and I'm seeing it happen earlier and earlier than I've ever seen it, coupled with this rampant perfectionism that is deeply concerning to me about girls, where they are expecting themselves to make A++ pluses in every aspect of life, academics and every extracurricular and relationships, and then they're supposed to post it on social media and look amazing, and look like they're having a ball while they're doing it all. I feel like girls are crumbling internally while they're trying to present this fantastic front externally. That's just not reality.

Speaker 1:
[13:56] That's so much. That's the wording you use, and you say it a couple of times, like, this is too much. It's too much for kids, proposals are too much. David, you talk about with the boys, the what's it called, failure to launch, as well as suicide, a couple of big things, pornography comes up.

Speaker 3:
[14:12] Yeah. The three, Ginny, that I talk about with boys is risk, regulation, and rescue. Those are the three big categories I want parents of boys to be paying attention to. And the first is where we even started a few minutes ago talking about it. Boy getting his driver's license. Like, is there a context all throughout his growth and development for him to experience healthy risk? Because I think that is hardwired into who we are as males. So is he trying out a new instrument or a new sport that he's never played before at different points and experiencing the overwhelm of a lot of learning and not being good at something in the beginning and having to push through the hard of growth? Is there a context where he is, as he gets older, getting his driver's license, applying for his first job, applying for college? Like the stats on males who are applying to college are dropping at this accelerated rate. You know, I read a stat the other day that if we keep trending in the direction we're going not long from now, we're going to hit a point where only 30% of entering undergraduates will be males. And that's not to say college is the end all be all path for every boy, but it is to say, I think it's connected to this piece of risk. Like I don't want to try these big scary things. So of course, college is a big scary thing as we all know. And so risk is the first category. The second is regulation and it speaks to the concerns I carry around the statistics of how vulnerable males are to substance abuse, internet pornography, infidelity, suicide, like males lead the stats in all those spaces and the common denominator is a male's attempt to try to numb out or shut down whatever it is I'm feeling. I talk about and capable of the wisdom of, I love that phrasing in the 12 step movement of learning to deal with life on life's terms and how many males, boys, adolescent males, and adult men in this world cannot deal with life on life's terms. So the third category is rescue. And I love that you noted that we've got a lot of specifics around those four unique relationships of moms and sons, moms and daughters, dads and daughters, dads and sons. And I'm just going to preview, moms hear me say this with a lot of respect and a lot of grace. But I do think there is a unique vulnerability to a lot of rescue between moms and sons. And Sissy and I talk about an observation we've made throughout all these decades of work is noticing how tempting it can be to be harder at times on kids of your same gender. Mom's really hard on girls, dad's really hard on boys. And I think it often comes from a good place of, we know how hard it is. I know as a man how hard it is to be a man in this world. So I want my sons to feel prepared and I can be too hard on them out of that place. And the flip can happen where I think moms do a little too much rescue. I tell this funny story of interacting with a mom who, it didn't occur to her until she was an adult that she grew up with three brothers. And she said, you know, it never really hit me that even through high school my mom was still making my brother's lunch and I've been making my own since elementary school. And I think that's but one of a lot of examples we could fill in where, again, we're not even aware it's happening at times. And so I want to challenge parents to pay attention to where we could get in the way out of that trap of rescue, of kids experiencing this healthy risk moving out into the world, trying and doing hard things.

Speaker 1:
[17:39] I think if you're listening to this and you've got, you know, a little four-year-old boy at home or an eight-year-old daughter, it's like you can't really, you would be horrified to imagine that their life turns out, you know, like some of these stories you talk about in the book. You know, you say, you've lost count of the number of men in your community who have died by suicide, men who had experienced unbelievable success in their vocations, men married to remarkable women, fathers to multiple children, men who found themselves in the center of a failing economy, a declining investment, a failed startup, men who saw no other option than to die by suicide cannot deal with life on life's terms. And so you just, you know, you got this little pudgy toddler.

Speaker 3:
[18:21] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[18:22] You know, so these are really important things to consider. And like we've talked about from the very beginning, the book is going to make you feel more capable as you are guiding your children to be more capable. I've been doing a bit of spring reset with my closet, trying to simplify things and focus on pieces that actually work. Not more clothes, just better ones. Things that are well made, easy to mix and match, and that I don't have to think twice about. That's really why I love Quince. The quality is there, the fit is right, and the pricing feels really fair. Quince makes everyday staples with premium materials, like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and really soft, comfortable denim. And many of their pieces start around $50. Their spring styles are especially great because they're lightweight and breathable, but still look polished. You can throw something on and feel ready for the day. They also carry that same level of quality into their accessories. 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Can you talk about, talk about the shoulders that you stand on? I think that that gives a reader and a listener a vision for their own selves. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[22:48] Well, I think we grew up in such a different time. I want to say, if I had to name the person in the world who is trying to usher us back to some of those very things, it would be you, Ginny. That what you're doing with this thousand hours outside movement, I think you're taking us back to kids playing outside until the streetlights come on, to quote you, and drinking from the water hose. Those things that felt like not only did we have a lot of independence, but we had a lot of trust. We did a podcast episode yesterday with a mother daughter, and the mom said, I rose to the level of trust my parents put me in. That put, I'm sorry, I said that wrong. I rose to the level of trust my parents placed in me. Yes. Thinking about, I think I watched my mom be one of the most capable human beings I have ever known in my life. My parents went through a divorce and my mom was a single mom. You know this, but you mentioned my little sister, she was 16 years apart and so she had a 22-year-old and a six-year-old at the time. She had to figure out how to financially provide and what to do to raise this amazing little girl, Kathleen, and so she was figuring it out and she did some amazing things. I believe I'm more capable in the world because of watching my mom replace light fixtures because she couldn't hire an electrician and do so many different things. I think that modeling piece and then I would say, to the point that you made with my dad, there were so many things that my dad taught me that would have never occurred to me to learn or I would have never realized I was capable of doing. I mean, from little bitty learning, he called it the Arkansas push, but dancing to Motown in our living room, to learning to drive a boat, when I was a teenager and back to water skiing at the age of five. And I was crying like, I mean, I was crying so hard in the lake as he's saying, Sissy, you can do it, you can do it. Deep sea fishing and things that I think got me out of that comfort zone, which really, if we think about a comfort zone, every time we get out of it, our comfort zone expands. We learn more, we feel more capable. And so I think there was this modeling and there was this experiencing that helped me believe I really could do hard things and kids need that from their earliest stages. And David's parents were amazing. We had the privilege of knowing each other's parents, which is awesome. So David, talk about yours.

Speaker 3:
[25:30] Well, Ginny, I will first just say, I can't tell you how grateful I am you would even ask us about. Sissy and I both lost our moms in the last 10 years and we love remembering them, so thank you. And we're so grateful to still have our dads, which is why we dedicated the book to them. But you've brought up a parent who winked a lot and that was my brilliant mom. And I don't think it really occurred to me how much of that she did until I had teenagers myself. And I thought, I bet she was winking sometime to keep from rolling her eyes at the ridiculous things. I was staying in a lot of moments. But my, I would throw out these big emotional declarations as teenagers do. You know, I'd be working on a paper and I'd be like, I will never come up with this many words. I can't do this. And I remember my mom would get a glass of cold water, set it on the table and wink and say, it is a good thing you are such a great writer. She saw the lot with winking and water. I realized, of course, when I growing up or I'd be, I was a swimmer and a runner right for me. I'd get all worked up and scared. I wouldn't compete well. And she would wink, hand me a bottle of water at the side of the trap. And just say, gosh, such a great thing you clocked in so many hours in practice to be ready for this. Like she didn't dismiss it. She didn't say that's ridiculous. Or you do this every time. I mean, it was just this, I think, wisdom of winking that probably steadied her in different moments when she might have been tempted to say those things, and allowed her to speak the truth to me in those heightened emotional moments. And so I've thought back on that a lot and wanted to even employ that in my own journey, because we all know how hard it is to stay regulated when the kids we love are going off the rails. And so I think it's a great challenge for any parent listening to think about like, what are the things that help steady you in those moments when your kids are up and down and all over that allow you to stay really close to who you want to be as a parent first and then to Sissy's great wisdom, allow us to remind kids of who they're capable of being.

Speaker 2:
[27:32] Yeah, OK, I'm feeling convict to myself and I'm going to start winking at my nephews more. And I do have to say, my four year old nephew calls it peaking. He thinks it's not winking, it's peaking. So I'm going to be doing both. Maybe that's not a good story. That might sound weird.

Speaker 1:
[27:53] I'm going to do a little more peaking.

Speaker 2:
[27:55] Yeah, maybe not. Do you know what is interesting? Feel free to take that out.

Speaker 1:
[28:00] I really, that caught me, the winking. Even the way you wrote it, one of her unique practices was winking. And I don't think we do it enough. To your point, Sissy, we don't wink enough.

Speaker 2:
[28:12] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:12] And I have distinct memories in my life of being in a classroom and the teacher just, you feel really special. So Sissy, I love that. Wink more at the nephews and we can all be winking a little bit more. And you said this, Sissy, that your dad taught you to speak in public and to always introduce yourself even if you think the other person already knows you. Yes. I love all the specific things that you brought up because it just goes to show that in your day to day you have so much influence and so much that you can pass down. I love the part in the book, Capable, where you're saying, what did my mom say? What are some things my dad always said? What did my grandma say? My grandma always said, Lord willing, after everything. See, at church tomorrow, Lord willing. Everything she said, and it's just in my mind. It just shows, it gives you this swell of wanting to do these things, of wanting to take your kids camping at the zoo. I mean, what a cool thing. David, you went camping at the Nashville Zoo with your kids? I mean, you see all these things and you're like, oh, what will be the legacy that I passed down? I want to hit one more because I thought it was really cool. About the grandma, I think it's your grandma, David, who would send you little notes in college with a little bit of cash, not to blow, but to invest in relationships.

Speaker 3:
[29:29] Jenny, I get teary when I think about her. I come from to your great question about the shoulders of people. We stand on a legacy of extraordinary women, and my grandmother's one of my favorite humans on the planet. So this is my mom's mom, the winking. That's where the winking started. I remember my grandmother doing a lot of winking as well. And my grandmother had this great question that has stayed with me as an adult. She would ask all the time, like, did you make yourself useful? Is that an incredible question to think about? You know, even think about flipping the common question at pick up in the car where we ask kids often like, who's a good friend to you today? Ask them, who were you a good friend to? Which is the did you make yourself useful question? And so my grandmother would write me these handwritten notes when I was in college, she did this with all my cousins. We all collected stories of how this would happen. And she would report things that were happening in my little hometown where she still lived. And then she would always put five or $10 cash in the envelope. And her charge was, take a friend out. You know, take a friend out for a Coke. And I think back on what she was doing all throughout my life with that question of did you make yourself useful and here's some money and it's not just for you to blow on yourself. But it was this, we have a whole chapter in the strength, skill, strategy section on moving outward. And she was moving me outward all the time. And Sissy wrote this great part that I love in the beginning of the book of this conversation the two of us overheard of three women talking about how they grew up with this knowing that their parents messaged them that you're not the only pebble on the beach. And I think there was something within my grandmother's wisdom that was communicating that, too. Like, you're remarkable. She made me feel so special and unique and known and seen and loved and all those things. And also like, you're not the only good guy around. And so make yourself useful. Who else needs a friend today? And so our hope in the moving outward piece is that we're in a world that I think is very community-centric right now, helping kids think more about what's happening around them in the world and how they can be useful in it, to my grandmother's words.

Speaker 2:
[31:48] Okay, can I jump in and say something about all of this that we're talking about? I did not realize the impact. And my guess is, David, you didn't, and Ginny, you didn't. Whether it was our mom, our dad, our grandparent, in the moment, I never said, wow, mom, that didn't occur to me or gosh, I love watching you model what integrity looks like. Our thanks for the little handwritten note in the cache. We weren't saying those things. And so if you're listening as a parent and you feel weary and you feel like you haven't heard an inch of gratitude that you haven't required of them in a long time, just know these things, we absorb them in our bones and they matter more than you know. And so keep doing the long good work. I love Eugene Peterson has a book called A Long Obedience in the Same Direction. And that's what parenting looks like. You are living out that long obedience in the same direction. And all three of us are living witnesses to how much it matters, even in the midst of your failings, how much it matters. You're instilling these things in the kids you love and trust your intuition.

Speaker 1:
[33:00] I got, I mean, I got emotional in this whole conversation too, because I think it's a reminder of, of how much influence, I already said this, but like, how much quiet, understated influence that we hold, that we may never know. Your grandma, and you both talked about your grandparents. Sissy, you talked about your grandma who flew to Holland every year for a Bible conference, and to like, women at that point didn't even fly anywhere. They never traveled on their own. And you had grandparents that were in Pearl Harbor during the bombing, and your mom went through eight miscarriages. You know, that these hardships that they had, and yet they still are able to pass on so many things, and they just don't even know. They don't know they're in the book. Your grandma would have never known. This $5 that I keep, my long obedience includes the grandparents. This $5 that I send to David for him to go get a Coke with his friends is going to someday be in a book. And in a book where kids don't want to text to hang out anymore, you say. Kids would rather stay home. Kids feel incapable of making new friends. It reminds you that this stuff is not, it's not guaranteed. Like we have to invest in it generationally. Your grandmother was investing in a problem that is current today. It would have had no idea the foresight that, 30 or 40 years down the road, you're going to be using these experiences to say, hey, here's some ideas. Your grandparent listening, here's some ideas. Can you invest in your grandchild building relationships? What could you do? You know? Gosh, it's so good. This time of the year in homeschooling, you can really feel the shift. You're looking ahead to spring goals, end of your milestones, and making sure your kids feel confident in what they've learned. It's such a key window to reinforce those foundational skills before wrapping things up. And if you're thinking about assessments, whether that's something required or something you've set for your family, having clarity on where your child stands can make all the difference. That's where a tool like IXL can be incredibly helpful. IXL is an award-winning online learning platform that fits seamlessly into homeschooling. It offers interactive practice across math, language, art, science and social studies from pre-K through 12th grade. It personalizes learning for each child, keeps them engaged and gives parents clear insight into progress. What really stands out is the real-time feedback and progress tracking. Kids get immediate explanations when they miss something and you can clearly see growth over time. What's solid? What needs reinforcement? Without guessing, it helps build real confidence heading into the finish line. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and 1000 Hours Outside Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com/1000hours. Visit ixl.com/1000hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Then those things, they go down and down. My mom says, do your best, forget the rest. She said it all the time. I play the piano, my kids are doing a piano, like a little competition this weekend. I'm actually doing it too. Ginny, good for you. I'm so excited. I was influenced by my own podcast to make a little more of my life and to really dive into different hobbies. I'm playing I'll Fly Away Sunday at 11 AM. The girls, they're nervous. My mom said, do your best, forget the rest. You'd say, you're the prettiest one up there, which was never true. But I was like, I'll take it. Then you start saying it. You start saying Lord willing. It passes down and it matters so much. So I love, we've spent a lot of time here, but I love it's woven throughout the book capable of your own personal experiences of legacy, of shoulders to stand on, and then of what you're passing down to your kids, to your nephews, and how it matters so much. So you're going to find that in the book and you're going to love it. If you're looking for ideas, like the idea of sending five or $10 as a grandparent and saying, well, I have to be a little more today. Send it $25. Go get a meal at Chili's with your friend. You have pages and pages of capability building exercises at the back. I didn't write any of them down because I don't have the actual book. I got a digital version, but can you talk about, I mean, I was like, oh, there's a couple. Then I was like, this just keeps going and going and going. How do you even come up with all these ideas?

Speaker 2:
[37:21] We had a ball coming up with them. It was so fun to think about. The image I have in my head all the time is kids standing on their tiptoes to reach for something that's just beyond where they are. Again, that strengthens their muscles. We came up with practical things. We came up with things that have a lot of depth. Relationally, kids who are thinking of someone that might be struggling on Mother's Day and who can they write a note to, kids learning to ask questions, to do a family devotional. Just all manner of ways that kids can step into their own capability.

Speaker 1:
[37:55] Yeah. What a resource. That's at the back of the book, Capable. Pages and pages and some of them are different ages. What can the kids do? Capability building exercises. I would love to just touch on a couple of these components of capability, of competence. You wrote, parents are desperate in this day and age to give their kids an advantage in some context. So you give some different ideas like coaching toddlers for elite preschool interviews, that parents at sporting events are throwing chairs. They're so overworked, over, I don't know, I don't even know, they're just too involved. They're so obsessed at these sporting events. Parents will arrive early at camp, at summer camp so their kid gets the best bunk. So you say, when we're well-versed in doing hard things, we will have less difficulty in moving toward hard circumstances. So what we really want is for our kids to be capable. So sometimes we're swooping in too much or making things too big a video. So before we hop into some of these ways that we can build capacity and competence and capability, can you talk, you actually went through the definition of capable.

Speaker 3:
[39:10] I'd love to share that.

Speaker 1:
[39:11] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[39:12] This is our working definition is capable kids have practiced coping and learned competence for life's challenges. So we talk about those three Cs and the ingredients of those. And I think that being a backdrop to everything we're going to talk about within the strength skills and strategies and where all of those over 100 capability building exercises are really rooted in.

Speaker 1:
[39:37] Okay, I love it. And I love that you just could whip it out. You like you knew it. Capable kids have practiced, have practiced coping. And that's the whole thing. You can't practice coping if your mom is going to make sure that you get the best bunk. And you know, there's a lot of situations where you can't practice it. So this has to be something that's going on throughout childhood. So you have all of these strengths, skills and strategies and they're quick. You know, it's a couple pages on this, a couple pages on competence or flexibility or perseverance, humility, there's a lot of ones in here. Can we kick it off with disappointment and failure? Because I think that's a theme that we've been talking about today, is kids are not going to try out for the team. They don't want to be disappointed. They're not going to ask the girl to the dance. They don't want to be disappointed. And Sissy, you talked about periods in your time where like, oh, I didn't make the cheerleading squad. Also, I didn't make the drill team. But you end up doing other things instead. So can we talk about this? I mean, I think partially why kids are not taking risk is because they don't want to be disappointed or fail.

Speaker 2:
[40:34] Yes, I think you're exactly right. And parents don't want them to fail. It's both sides. And so I talk with parents a lot because like I mentioned earlier, I'm just seeing this perfectionism more in girls than I've ever seen. And I think we have kind of five practical strategies, five to six in each chapter. And the reason we chose these strengths, skills and strategies is we are seeing these are the ones that not only do we really believe build resilience, but they're ones kids are struggling with more than ever. And so in that, we talk about putting kids in places where they actually will fail. Well, where they'll get to experience some discomfort, some disappointment and learning how to function within that. And going back to the idea of modeling too, I want every kid to hear their parents talk about their own sense of failure. I want kids to know their parents did something silly in front of their friends or failed at work. Or, I mean, I want you to drop things. I mean, literally make mistakes in front of your kids. Because to everything we've been talking about, you're their heroes, whether they're saying it out loud or not. And so when they watch you fail, they're seeing the people that I love and respect most in the world make mistakes too. And so it must be okay for me to make mistakes myself. And so I want us to literally be practicing failure, one, but two, when we do, I want us to laugh at ourselves. So I want us to go do something as a family that no one does well. And when I make a mistake on the pottery or when I whiff the ball at the batting cage, I start laughing because any of us who are perfectionistic do not know how to laugh at ourselves. And that is such an important practice skill. And not only that, but I think it's really honestly preventative when we think about this anxious world that kids are living in. And so the more we can practice disappointment and failure, the more we can set them up to know that is an inevitable part of life. I think the more we're doing preventative work for the mental health disorders we've been talking about.

Speaker 1:
[42:40] Yeah. I failed at waffles this morning. There you go.

Speaker 2:
[42:45] And I bet you laughed when you did.

Speaker 1:
[42:48] Well, you know, it's like I hadn't used the thing in a while and I overshot, I overshot the amount of batter you're supposed to put in the little four squares. So anyways, I was with my daughter, she's nine, and I closed it down. We made the batter together and then I poured it in because it's pretty hot. So I poured it in and then I closed it and she's like, mama, she's like, it's dripping out the side. And I was like, oh, and then she goes, mama, it's dripping out the back too. It's dripping out everywhere. We're like, it kind of looks like octopus tentacles.

Speaker 2:
[43:19] See, you turned that to be fun. It was fun.

Speaker 1:
[43:23] It won't be fun when they have to try and feed it. But it was fun. So can we add on to this? And David, you talked about your wife starting yoga with a bunch of younger people. And I love this phrasing that was used here. And I think these go in these coincide, even though they're two different chapters. But you say there's this acronym, fail, first attempt in learning. I love that. And you say, this way your books are so compassionate. You also remind, this is your first attempt at parenting. This is your first attempt at parenting, a child, a teenager, a young adult. For us, it's like we're heading into first graduation. I feel more emotional about it than I could have imagined. Ginny, wow, sure. You got to put on a happy face because they're happy. We have this senior night at basketball. It's like the last basketball game. They honor the seniors. I was like, can I cry the whole time or what? And they're so excited. What are they going to go off and do? So it's your first attempt. So David, it kind of goes coincides because the reframing, I think, is something that a parent can help a child do. You can do with your own life as a parent or in your world of work, whatever your situation is, you can reframe. And the phrase was, so she's doing yoga, she's new and she's struggling. And the instructor says, wow, that is a beautiful adaptation.

Speaker 3:
[44:50] Which is the kindest way the instructor could have said, that is a bizarre pose you got going right there. Not at all like what everybody else is doing. But I love that she turned it into something positive and honored the fact that my wife in her mid fifties was trying a brand new thing in a room full of women who were in their twenties and thirties and really practiced at it. And Ginny, remind me of the, I love that you told that story about being in a music recital this weekend with your kids. I think it's that responder that, you know, everything Sissy just said about talking openly with our kids when we mess up, we want to challenge parents to do exactly what you're doing, which is try something new yourself. Yes. And talk about how hard it is and talk about what you're learning and talk about how the first batch of waffles turned out terrible and spilled out all over the place. And then maybe the third batch looked a lot better. And so I think one of the best ways for us to equip the kids we love with these strength skills and strategies is to be test driving them in front of them. Letting kids sit front row and watch this on the grownups they trust the most in this world. What a gift that your kids this weekend are going to get to watch you playing the piano.

Speaker 1:
[46:00] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[46:01] Incredible.

Speaker 1:
[46:02] I'm excited. You know, it's been an interesting experience. It's our first time doing this. And there are trophies, there's trophies for every age group, for all these different categories. And my kids are pretty keen on the trophies. I'm not a competitive person. I'm like, it's all about the experience. They're like, no, we want to win the trophies. Even my nine-year-old was like, why do you keep saying that? What does that even mean? It's all about the experience. And we've had a lot of conversations about it, but it's our first time. So I'm like, you know, you can't go in and expect to win, but what you can do is see what other people are doing. And that might give you a little spark for the next year, you know, for growth and who knows. But it is, I think that's a reframing. Like I'm going to use this beautiful adaptation wording in my life a lot because you reframed, you know, you don't win, but what happened? You tried something new, you grew, you performed, you got feedback from a judge, we spent the weekend together, the grandparents came and watched. I mean, there's a lot there. There's a lot there with all of the things that we do, no matter what it is. And you talked about, and I don't have the exact notes here, Sissy, but when you said you didn't make the cheerleading squad in sixth grade or the drill team, I have this phrase written down. One of the most vivid memories you had of your childhood home is, I think, when you came home and were disappointed about that.

Speaker 2:
[47:17] Yes, yes, I was devastated by that because every one of my friends did, and I didn't make it. And my mom was furious, not devastated. But thankfully, she didn't try to do anything about it to rescue me, as I have parents do now who call and threaten legal action against schools in light of everything we're talking about. But I would certainly say, Ginny, in this world that we are all three living in, I mean, I started moving into leadership positions in a variety of organizations because I didn't make cheerleading. I became president of Fellowship of Christian Athletes in this little organization called Whiteens and kept moving up in leadership. I had my first opportunities to speak in public, write things. I mean, so many different options, that opportunities that I would have never had. Yeah, and I made cheerleading and God knew all along. I sure didn't when I was sitting in the midst of that hurt, but God knew all along exactly what he was moving ahead in terms of my path and clearing this path for me to be able to do.

Speaker 1:
[48:20] All those beautiful adaptations. I love that.

Speaker 2:
[48:22] Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1:
[48:23] This one kind of goes in line with it too, with disappointment and failure and that kind of struggle. One of the things that you talk about, one of the chapters here is about scaling, sizing and shaking off the dust. So we talked about this kind of at the beginning, where things are just bigger than they used to be. No longer is it, I'm worried, it's I have anxiety and you talk about this pain scaling. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much does it hurt? A kid might say, I'm at a 10. My friend hurt my feelings at school. So it's this sort of bigger size than things used to seem. So the shake off the dust part, I thought that was really interesting. You say you talk about that at your summer camp. And I've never considered that in terms of parenting or guiding children like that part of the Bible, where they shake off the dust, if they don't accept you shake off your dust, shake the dust off and go to the next town. Can you talk about how you're using that with children and in combination with all this disappointment and failure type situations?

Speaker 2:
[49:28] Yes. Well, we can't take credit for that. That was Melissa Trevath and our dear friend and founder of Daystar.

Speaker 1:
[49:35] That was Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[49:36] Well, it was Jesus and Melissa. Yes, they're a good combo. So yes, when Jesus is sending out the disciples, he says exactly what you said. You know, when you go to a town, if they don't accept you, then shake the dust off your feet and keep going. And I think one of the predominant issues we're seeing in this world with kids is the dust is settling in. And they're carrying it with them from town to town to town. And they don't know how to allow that to reframe it to build resilience. And so I had a mom who similarly had a daughter who was a really deep feeler. And she said, honey, have you ever noticed that ducks have these outer layers of feathers that are meant to protect them from the cold seeping in? And so the water just rolls right off their back. And helping kids learn to acknowledge and then work through grievances, acknowledge and then work through hurt, acknowledge and then move toward forgiveness, feels like something we have to do. I mean, the amount of times life requires us to shake off the dust in any given day is so significant as adults. And so we want to be teaching kids what that looks like. How do I, again, not not let myself feel it. I need to feel it, but then work through the feelings to take it towards something constructive to learn whatever it is, the lesson there, shake off the dust and keep moving. And that is a lot of what resilience looks like.

Speaker 1:
[51:09] Yeah, yes. And that goes in line with the flexibility. Maybe we can wrap up with this one. And there's a lot more in here. We're just going to touch on a couple of them. People can pick up the book. It's called capable. They can come see you on the book tour and meet you in person with this new book that's coming out at the end of April. But flexibility, I mean, I guess it's sort of all inner woven, right? It's like, okay, I didn't make the drill team. Is that what it's called? I didn't make cheerleading or the drill team. Neither. I'm sorry, Sissy.

Speaker 2:
[51:36] Ginny, you're so sweet. I didn't.

Speaker 1:
[51:38] We all have, you know, my brother, he's a volleyball coach. He's a middle school teacher and he teaches, he coaches volleyball as well. He's really good. He's like such a great brother. And he's like really good at sports and he coaches this team and it's like, I guess seventh and eighth grade volleyball. And he had to cut 90 students, nine, zero. And he was like so, I think, distraught about it. He had this whole letter written up. He was like, you're still a great person, you know, to like give out the news. But I mean, this happens. And I think because things are becoming more competitive, kids are getting cut. I heard about a school where they do no cuts and they just have, they just make more teams. And I thought that was such, and it was in an effort to reduce screen time. They're like, anytime a kid wants to do a hobby, we need to make sure that they have the opportunity. So look, if we have to have seven teams and the lower ones always just play each other, that's what we're going to do. But you know, this is a common experience now with like everything being inflated. It's like kids are way better at certain things than they used to be because they started when they were way younger and they've invested so much more time. So there are a lot more of these types of disappointments. And so one of the things that you talk about is just, can you flex? And so in your story, Sissy, you like flexed, you're like, I'm going to do other things as opposed to doing nothing. So can you talk about this one last strength, one less ingredient to capability is flexibility. And you talk about, I want to talk about this one because it's the parents and the kids. So for the parents, they're like, I can't get the appointment I need. And they're like yelling in the office. I can't really imagine like, you know, you're in a counseling office. So like you think you're going to be putting on your best front. So can you, can you just give us a trickle down? Like how can parents be a little bit more flexible in a day and age when we're prepping preschoolers for Ivy League preschool interviews? How can parents be more flexible? I mean, I think we have to give up a lot of control and what we think it should be. And then the same thing for the kids. It's like they have to be able to do what you did, Sissy, which is like I didn't make the team. I'm disappointed. I'm crushed for a day. I read a book recently that talked about tears of futility. I was like, oh, that's a really good statement. You're going to cry your tears of futility because you can't change it. And then you got to flex. Yes, it was going to go.

Speaker 3:
[54:10] I'll jump in with the thoughts, Sissy, you come after. You know, what's interesting, Ginny, even in how you told that story, we talk about in the book how crying, there's research around this, crying calms the nervous system. So that's a great thing for a parent to do. If you feel an overwhelming amount of disappointment about something's happened with your kids, we'd encourage you to maybe do the bulk of that away from them so they don't feel responsible for your tears or start to take on disappointment that's not helpful or healthy for them in some ways, but gives you the chance to just work that through and then to your wisdom, figuring out what your flex is going to be in that moment. I think within that assessing, not just my expectation, but we challenge parents in the book to pay attention to, even thinking back on the rescue piece, like when something's getting in the way, what might be at the root of that? Like, for example, I think sometimes our kids' disappointments are getting cut from a team triggers our own disappointment of getting cut from a team at some point, and then we're living through them more than we're living with them in those moments. So I think when I do the work I need to do outside of my kids, I can make some stronger connections where I might be able to pay attention to the fact that actually this has actually become more about me than it has about them in this moment. That's not helpful to either of us.

Speaker 2:
[55:35] Well, and I would piggyback that I love that you brought up flexibility because I really think, David, I would be curious what you'd say to this. I think right now Ginny, it's fascinating that probably 80% of conversations I'm having with kids and with parents are around this idea of flexibility and the inverse issue that I would consider control and we are at this juncture several years out, a handful of years out from the pandemic and we are seeing as therapists more and more evidence of how it really did impact kids. One of the things that happened was so much was in our, globally it was out of our control. Individually, we were in a lot of control. We were in our homes. We weren't talking to people we didn't know well. Kids weren't at the park, not being able to get on the slide, having somebody cut in line in front of them. There just wasn't that flexibility being developed in kids. That really is crucial to their development, to their emotional development, cognitive development, social development. Now, in lieu of better coping strategies, healthier coping strategies, we're seeing just a plethora of kids that control has become their primary coping strategy. And so they are so dysregulated at home, dealing with so much anger, parents feel at a loss because of all the things we've been talking about, the shifts in parenting. And so a lot of kids and their demand for control is ruling a lot of households right now. And so we are talking with parents about all of these things that we've talked about in this last conversation. But flexibility being a really significant one, that kids need to have to practice flexibility, even in small silly ways, like you said, of shifting one seat at the dinner table, but bigger ways too. And realizing how much flexibility impacts and the lack of flexibility impacts mental health. And so we just can't say enough about how important that idea is right now with kids.

Speaker 3:
[57:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:48] And it goes right in line with reframing, with the beautiful adaptations, goes in line with disappointment and failure. And even you were talking about before we popped on that the Daystar, do you say Daystar Clinic?

Speaker 2:
[58:00] Daystar Counseling, yes.

Speaker 1:
[58:03] So at the Daystar Counseling practice, it's you're expanding. So there's not enough rooms for everybody. And so you're expanding. And I think what a wonderful thing. People can go to the cutest place ever. We came in the fall. It's like a super hot, but wasn't cool, but it was still decorated for the fall. Like all these pumpkins, it's just precious. And there's a kitchen. Anyway, it's just a wonderful environment and you're expanding. And that means like for any business, things are going well. But I would imagine there's a lot of stressors that go along with that. There's a lot of things to have to figure out. There's a lot of flexibility that's needed even when things go well. So even if you're the type of parent that's like trying to orchestrate everything for your child, it's like, okay, all right, great. If they end up in a position as an adult where things are going well, they're still going to need flexibility. Because whether things are going poorly or going well, you're going to have to flex with whatever is going on in your life. The book is phenomenal. It is called Capable. I knew, I feel like we talked about a while ago when the seeds of this were being planted. I thought, this is a book that people need. How to teach your kids the strengths, skills, and strategies to build resilience. It's for the parent and for the child. I would like to point everyone's attention to page 240, where it says, I'd highly suggest reading The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Hite and listening to our friend Ginny Yurich's 1000 Hours Outside Podcast. Oh, I was tickled to read that. So tickled.

Speaker 2:
[59:33] We adore you and thank the world of you.

Speaker 1:
[59:36] Yes, we do.

Speaker 2:
[59:36] We are always honored to get to be on your podcast.

Speaker 1:
[59:39] Thank you both for being here. Huge congrats on the new book. People can pick it up wherever books are sold and also check out your book tour. I'll put all the links in the show notes. Wonderful books as well. Just a whole host of them in your podcast, Raising Boys & Girls. Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2:
[59:52] Ginny. Ginny, you are the best. I know. It has all made me think about leaving David Thomas and Marco Polo saying, I just had the sweetest conversation with a woman named Ginny and she's gonna ask you to be on her podcast and you say yes because she is amazing. I remember that.

Speaker 1:
[60:12] Yeah, it's an honor to be connected to both of you and you're doing like, obviously, the Lord's work in a huge way, in a huge way. These books are phenomenal.

Speaker 2:
[60:21] Right back at you.

Speaker 3:
[60:22] Right back at you.

Speaker 1:
[60:23] Congrats to you and I hope that the rest of the book promotion goes well. We're praying for you.

Speaker 2:
[60:28] Thank you, friends. I hope we get to see you soon.

Speaker 3:
[60:33] And will you hug your people in the meanwhile?

Speaker 2:
[60:35] Please. Will do.

Speaker 3:
[60:37] I wish I could hear you perform I'll Fly Away this weekend.

Speaker 1:
[60:40] Me too. I'll send you a video. I might post it online.

Speaker 2:
[60:42] Please. We would love it.

Speaker 3:
[60:43] I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 1:
[60:45] Thank you. Bye to the most thing. You have a wonderful rest of the day.

Speaker 2:
[60:48] You too. Bye.