transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:06] K-Pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.
Speaker 2:
[00:20] It is an honor to share.
Speaker 1:
[00:22] No, it's our honor.
Speaker 2:
[00:24] It is our larger honor.
Speaker 1:
[00:25] No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side.
Speaker 3:
[00:34] And participate in McDonald's While Supplies Last.
Speaker 2:
[00:36] Hi, I'm Dave Barnes.
Speaker 4:
[00:37] And I'm Jon McLaughlin.
Speaker 2:
[00:38] And welcome to Dadville.
Speaker 4:
[00:40] Dadville is a podcast where we talk about life, love and the pursuit of awesome dadding.
Speaker 2:
[00:46] It's funny thoughts and deep talks.
Speaker 4:
[00:48] So please enjoy your time here in Dadville and enjoy this episode with Jamie and Blake from 3%.
Speaker 5:
[00:59] Thank you for the metronome.
Speaker 2:
[01:00] No, yeah, that's Jon and Ed's joke every time we start one of these.
Speaker 4:
[01:03] It's a little, I can't even hear it and it's a little too quick.
Speaker 2:
[01:05] We always, always say that it's too fast because it always feels too fast. And the BPMs are actually 120, which is pretty quick.
Speaker 5:
[01:12] That is pretty quick.
Speaker 2:
[01:12] That's a quick tempo.
Speaker 5:
[01:12] I feel like I'm in the pocket now.
Speaker 2:
[01:14] Yeah, now you do. It took a minute.
Speaker 3:
[01:16] You guys are speaking in a different language. I don't even know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:
[01:19] No, you're better. You've made more money from not knowing what we know than we have from knowing it. I'll tell you that. Okay, so here, what you're hearing, this is what we call a PowerPod. I just trademarked that. PowerPod. I'm gonna go with that unless Gatorade has those that you add to your drinks, which they probably do. This is 3% Podcast, partnering with Dadville Podcast.
Speaker 5:
[01:41] A super podcast.
Speaker 2:
[01:42] It's a super podcast. It's a super power podcast. That's actually fun to say, it's a super power podcast.
Speaker 4:
[01:48] Piggybacking, like a think tank.
Speaker 2:
[01:50] It's all happening.
Speaker 4:
[01:50] This will be the bulk of the episode, actually, just figuring out what the title is.
Speaker 2:
[01:54] We've done one other like this that was live like this, and we loved it.
Speaker 4:
[01:59] Absolutely.
Speaker 2:
[01:59] We're so glad that this is happening again.
Speaker 3:
[02:01] Who was the one other?
Speaker 2:
[02:03] Have you heard of Joe Rogaine? Rogaine. Rogaine.
Speaker 3:
[02:08] Joe Rogaine, yeah.
Speaker 2:
[02:09] Getting it started, and he said it was a big bomb, us doing that for him.
Speaker 4:
[02:12] It was huge. He was like, I'm good now.
Speaker 2:
[02:14] I think I can stand on my own two feet. Intentional parenting. They're out of California.
Speaker 5:
[02:18] Awesome.
Speaker 2:
[02:18] They're great. They were awesome. So, you know, a point was made, and we're not going to, this is not about throwing anybody into the bus that we should probably introduce each podcast because this is a dual podcast. This is coming out to both.
Speaker 5:
[02:29] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[02:30] And so I'm going to let Jon introduce ours.
Speaker 4:
[02:33] Great. Okay.
Speaker 2:
[02:34] For people who don't know about that.
Speaker 4:
[02:35] So 3%, do you guys have a name for your listeners? 3%ers?
Speaker 2:
[02:40] Oh, I love that.
Speaker 5:
[02:41] We do try to stay away from calling them 3%ers because there is-
Speaker 2:
[02:44] Geez, Jon.
Speaker 4:
[02:45] I said that as a joke, of course.
Speaker 3:
[02:47] They're not going to use that. We thought about using it. We were like-
Speaker 5:
[02:51] Very close to using it, looked it up. It's an alt-right militia group. So we do try to-
Speaker 4:
[02:57] Wait, is that not you guys?
Speaker 2:
[02:59] Let's cancel.
Speaker 4:
[03:00] Okay. Let's reschedule.
Speaker 2:
[03:01] We agreed at the wrong time.
Speaker 5:
[03:02] Let's reschedule.
Speaker 4:
[03:05] Okay. So not 3%ers.
Speaker 2:
[03:07] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[03:08] For the 3% listeners, I'm Jon McLaughlin, my co-host, Dave Barnes over here. We started a podcast called Dadville. Five years ago, almost six years ago.
Speaker 2:
[03:18] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[03:19] Yeah, it is. Our theme song goes, Dadville, if you want to check it out. It is basically our little motto is funny thoughts, deep talks. And we've known each other for almost 25 years now. Dave and I, and we live right across the street from each other. And we have kids between the two of us, we have five kids and they're all pretty close in age. And so we, a lot of our time was spent sitting on each other's porches and chatting about being dads, as we like, you know, watch our kids play and stuff like that. And so one day in this room, Dave was like, hey, would you want to do a podcast called Dadville? And I immediately was like, yes.
Speaker 3:
[04:07] Just like that.
Speaker 4:
[04:08] Absolutely. I mean, first I mentioned money and kind of what I would need up front.
Speaker 2:
[04:12] Sure, and then once the lawyers got engaged, that was about a year and a half of just really intense.
Speaker 4:
[04:16] Right, which is actually pretty quick.
Speaker 2:
[04:18] Yeah, for what we were trying to figure out, empire-wise, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4:
[04:21] And then boom, here we are, Dadville.
Speaker 5:
[04:24] Amazing.
Speaker 4:
[04:24] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[04:25] That's really cool.
Speaker 5:
[04:25] How did you guys meet?
Speaker 4:
[04:27] We met.
Speaker 2:
[04:28] Some say we still haven't. Do you know what I mean when I say that?
Speaker 4:
[04:32] Like on what level?
Speaker 2:
[04:33] Yeah, yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:
[04:34] Surfacy. No, we met 2001 or 2002. I don't think we've ever really figured out the exact date. It was my freshman year of college and Dave and Matt Wirtz were on tour and they played at my university. And one of my roommates was friends, somehow connected because he played in the band. And Dave played drums on that tour and Luke Barrett played bass and I was living with Luke. So Matt and Dave actually like stayed in our dorm a couple of nights.
Speaker 5:
[05:13] Oh, nice.
Speaker 4:
[05:15] And then I ended up opening for them at like another like coffee shop down the street in the next town kind of thing. So that's cool. We've known each other ever since.
Speaker 3:
[05:24] I had two close friends that lived with Matt. Shout out.
Speaker 4:
[05:27] Really?
Speaker 3:
[05:27] Holden and Joel, if you're listening.
Speaker 2:
[05:29] Where?
Speaker 3:
[05:31] In his house.
Speaker 2:
[05:32] That's a trick question. That was good. You'd handle that well. In Nashville?
Speaker 3:
[05:36] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[05:37] Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[05:39] One of these streets, all these streets are the same.
Speaker 2:
[05:41] Yeah. Yes. I didn't. I thought you were harkening back to champagne days for some reason when he was in Illinois.
Speaker 4:
[05:48] Back when he used to drink a lot of champagne.
Speaker 2:
[05:51] Gosh. I should clarify that he went to University of Illinois that is in Illinois. People were like, Oh, my God, what happened with Matt?
Speaker 3:
[05:59] Back in Matt Worth's champagne days.
Speaker 5:
[06:01] Why do they get so specific with his drinking problem?
Speaker 2:
[06:03] Well, I was going to say that you don't really hear that as like, I'm not used to it.
Speaker 4:
[06:09] It was exclusively champagne.
Speaker 2:
[06:13] It's like I'm so much less worried by that. Oh, he's drinking. Oh, he'll be okay. It's so classy though. If you're going to go down, look great.
Speaker 5:
[06:21] He seems refined.
Speaker 4:
[06:22] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[06:23] Yeah. So we've known each other a while and then...
Speaker 4:
[06:26] Played a lot of shows together.
Speaker 2:
[06:27] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's our spiel.
Speaker 4:
[06:29] That's our story.
Speaker 2:
[06:30] Tag your head.
Speaker 3:
[06:31] It's like the future version of us a little bit, that we're looking at.
Speaker 5:
[06:35] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[06:35] It seems. We're here to warn y'all. Less handsome, but...
Speaker 5:
[06:38] We do need to move across the street from each other instead of across Nashville.
Speaker 2:
[06:42] That would help. That's one of the requirements we had.
Speaker 5:
[06:44] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[06:45] So for the Dadville listeners then...
Speaker 2:
[06:48] We actually call ours the 3% percenters.
Speaker 3:
[06:50] Percenters, you do?
Speaker 2:
[06:51] Yeah, 3% percenters, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[06:52] For the 3% percenters, if you're listening, I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 4:
[06:58] I'm starting to get uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:
[07:00] We saw a huge spike in listens this year. All these different people are showing up at our shows.
Speaker 3:
[07:08] They're holding these really weird sides outside.
Speaker 4:
[07:11] They are passionate.
Speaker 2:
[07:12] They really care.
Speaker 3:
[07:14] I'm Blake.
Speaker 5:
[07:15] I'm Jamie.
Speaker 3:
[07:17] We met in 12 Step Recovery almost a decade ago together. We're both therapists now. Jamie did his stint in the music world moving here before we ended up becoming therapists. When we were in 12 Step Recovery, we were two of the younger guys that happened to be there at the time. Our sponsors set us up on a blind date. You guys are the same age and there's not a lot of younger guys in here. You guys should hang out. The first thing we actually ever did together was I made the video for your-
Speaker 5:
[07:52] For a Kickstarter for my record.
Speaker 3:
[07:53] Kickstarter for your record. No. Like a week or two after we met, which is crazy to think about what we're doing now. But the long story short is we, if you're familiar with 12 step recovery at all, you know that one of the most important things of the growth that happens individually for somebody in 12 step is the relationships you develop and the honesty that happens in those relationships. So phone calls, like picking up the phone and calling somebody is a thing that you are just-
Speaker 5:
[08:25] It's one of the pillars of 12 step for sure.
Speaker 3:
[08:29] And not just pick up the phone and like talk about surface level stuff, but like the stuff that you have a lot of shame and fear around. So anyways, we-
Speaker 4:
[08:40] That's like a daily exercise that is expected.
Speaker 5:
[08:43] Yeah. Kind of multiple times a day too. The encouragement is when you are doing well, check in what's going well. When you are not doing well, check in what's hard so that you build the rhythm of when you are in crisis. It's your reaction instead of something you are trying to think of to do.
Speaker 3:
[09:04] Yeah. So let's just make up a number. Let's say that we were at our very best, which is just as generous, maybe 50 percent honest with ourselves or with each other, even when we are making these calls about things that we are afraid of, or things that we are struggling with. But that was still maybe way more honest than we had been before getting into recovery because the lack of being honest with ourselves and with others was the thing that drove us into recovery. So that growth was really important for us and really started to change just our own personal lives and deepen this friendship. Then we started realizing that at our very, very best, we would be, I think you said it one time, we were just on the phone and doing our normal check-in or whatever. I think Jamie was processing something and then he was like, okay, well, that's only like 97 percent of the truth. Then he was like, there's this little extra 3 percent I need to share. Whatever it was, it was just that little extra bit that typically we would keep to ourselves which would then keep us stuck in a lot more shame and loneliness and fear. It became just this permission slip of a way for us to be really honest and vulnerable with each other, fully, not just surface level and even when we move past surface level, not just like, you're really seeing me, you really are knowing all part of me. Because when you get the idea of the concept, if you pick up the phone and you're like, hey man, I need to share 3% with you, it communicates, I've got a lot of shame around this, I've got a lot of fear, I don't really want to talk about this but I know I need to, I really need you to like listen, this isn't something that I need you to make a joke about, I really need you to zone in with me. It kind of says all those things in six words. Yeah, so it was just like a permission slip. So it was just like a concept or a language really that we just used in our friendship. Fast forward, we both became therapists, and it was something that we just kind of use with our clients, and it was helping, we mostly work with men. We were just seeing it help men become more vulnerable even in session, like sharing that little extra bit really can be the like step stone into real freedom for somebody, to be truly seen and known that way. When we were both pretty entrepreneurial, so when we were doing our private practices, we thought we wanted to build something together. And we didn't know what it would look like, but we knew that we had this passion to kind of take what we had been experiencing in recovery, in church growing up, which is like its whole other bag of stuff. And then as therapists and create something for men just to help them experience a little bit more of what we were experiencing. And so that's kind of like the the genesis of the name. So we also started with a podcast because we were like, why not? We're not 15 years late. We just launched last year. So we're a little bit behind the, what did you guys say, 10 years ago?
Speaker 2:
[12:31] No, five or six.
Speaker 4:
[12:33] Coming up on six.
Speaker 3:
[12:35] So if you could, I mean, we literally just launched our first season in March of 25.
Speaker 5:
[12:41] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[12:42] And so we're still like, what are we, what are we doing?
Speaker 4:
[12:46] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[12:47] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[12:47] What am I leaving out?
Speaker 5:
[12:49] Yeah. I mean, ultimately the goal of our whole community is to have conversations that help particularly men deepen their relationships with themselves, others in God. That's the, yeah.
Speaker 3:
[13:02] That's what I meant to say.
Speaker 4:
[13:04] That's good. I love the, just that shorthand of like 3%. I mean, I would imagine it would be super helpful. There are obviously times where you're reaching out to a friend because you want to confide in them about something that you are feeling shame around or whatever. But even in all the other, more kind of innocuous conversations, even just thinking of the concept of that there would be just a little bit extra that you're holding back, I think it's probably somewhat human nature and built in, that we do that. We're always on some level, as much as we try to not do this, presenting a little bit. Even if I share some kind of rough news with Amy and my small group, I'm probably not sharing all of it. Right. Especially in these kinds of relationships, just knowing that there is this thing, this 3% would remind you to just scan it a little bit before you share and make sure you share that extra bit. Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[14:26] Do you guys know Gabor Mate? Have you heard of him?
Speaker 2:
[14:30] Is he on Star Wars?
Speaker 5:
[14:31] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[14:32] Is he?
Speaker 2:
[14:32] I think he's in the, he's in the Cantina with the other. He's trying to kill Hansel.
Speaker 3:
[14:38] Yeah. He talks about how children have this tragedy that they have to choose between growing up, which is between attachment and authenticity.
Speaker 2:
[14:51] Wow.
Speaker 3:
[14:52] So attachment being like the attachment we have to have with our caregivers to survive, because we're the only creatures that are dependent on the relationship with our caregivers more than any other, more than any other mammal for the longest period of time. And he goes on, it's brilliant the way he phrases it, but he essentially says like, what we need is to be able to be our authentic selves. So like you could say 100 percent you with your feelings, your emotions, your desires and still have the secure attachment with your parent or with your primary caregiver. But he says what happens so often unintentionally in most cases is children have to choose between those two and we're always going to choose the attachment because we need that to survive and we'll reject our authenticity or reject the vulnerable parts of us because our parents may not be able to handle it for whatever various reasons are because of their own unaddressed issues. So then we like, when we see this as therapists, like we just grow up and move through the world learning how to attach to people while rejecting our authenticity or rejecting curating it. Curating it. Yeah. And so we don't, we don't, a lot of us don't have the experience of being able to share our 3% and it be, it feels safe.
Speaker 2:
[16:28] And I had never seen Jaws before and that's why it was so funny.
Speaker 4:
[16:31] And it was a puppet show. Amazing. You know what, Dave? Yeah. I've been saying this for six months now, but it's springtime, you know, flowers blooming, the sun's shining. It's time for a home refresh.
Speaker 2:
[16:44] And here's something that you don't hear me say a lot. You're right. And what could be better than a project that can protect your family?
Speaker 4:
[16:51] Dave, exactly. And that's something I hardly ever say. That's why we started using Cove and Dave, you should too.
Speaker 2:
[16:58] Okay. I will.
Speaker 4:
[16:59] I just wanted to have some peace of mind knowing what's going on in my house when I'm not paying attention.
Speaker 2:
[17:03] Yeah, same. We're saying a lot of things we don't say, Jon. Cove is a DIY home security system. It's simple, affordable, and you can set it up in less than 30 minutes. That's half an hour, Jon, if you don't do math well. If something shows up or there's movement, you get a notification and can check it instantly.
Speaker 4:
[17:21] You know what? I love that feature.
Speaker 2:
[17:22] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[17:22] It helps us track when packages are delivered, where our kids are, when people are arriving at the house, when someone's trying to break in, we can watch them.
Speaker 2:
[17:29] When I'm grabbing that Amazon thing, I didn't know I was going to grab Jon, whoopsie. And it's so easy to get it going. No wires, no drilling.
Speaker 4:
[17:38] No.
Speaker 2:
[17:38] It's all peel and stick.
Speaker 4:
[17:39] That's right.
Speaker 2:
[17:40] I had it up and running in like half an hour.
Speaker 4:
[17:41] Mine was like 25 minutes. Same here. It's affordable too. Okay. Monitoring starts at less than $1 a day. It just makes everything feel a little bit more under control.
Speaker 2:
[17:52] Start this spring season off right and protect your home with Cove. Head to covesmart.com/dad, or use the code dad at checkout for up to 70% off your first order.
Speaker 4:
[18:03] And if you get a survey, let them know that you heard about Cove from the Dadville Podcast.
Speaker 2:
[18:18] I'm pretty sure if in a tickle fight, that's how the rules work, so you can't change them.
Speaker 4:
[18:23] Yeah, you know, and that's how I thought it worked for most of my life, and I had to rethink it. And speaking of rethinking, this time of year always makes me rethink what's in my closet, okay? I'm trying to keep fewer things, but better things. Pieces that are well made, easy to wear. I don't want something that's difficult to wear.
Speaker 2:
[18:43] Early day, you need something for early day wear.
Speaker 4:
[18:45] That's why I keep coming back to Quince. The fabrics feel elevated. You know how I like elevation.
Speaker 2:
[18:52] You do.
Speaker 4:
[18:53] And the fits are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense, too.
Speaker 2:
[18:57] Jon, we can't quit Quince.
Speaker 4:
[18:59] No, won't do it.
Speaker 2:
[19:00] And that's a free tagline from them as being a sponsor to us, that we give back, Jon, we give back. Quince makes high quality, everyday essentials using premium materials like 100% European linen and they're insanely soft, flow net, activewear.
Speaker 4:
[19:15] So soft, it's insane.
Speaker 2:
[19:16] It's great, you run faster, you don't run faster. The men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable, and comfortable, the perfect layer for spring.
Speaker 4:
[19:24] Listen, I'll tell you what, Dave, their linen pants have become my go-to, and that's with the number two, just to make it edgy. They're breathable, comfortable, and look more polished than I expected, you know? And the price? Way less than I thought quality linen would cost, Dave.
Speaker 2:
[19:38] You're going to laugh at the price, guys. I don't think they're going to stay afloat at this company. They're giving away. They're just giving away their merchandise. The flick. Get it? The flick. Now I'm going to tell you about it right now so you can go get it. The FloNet ActiveWear is awesome too. Moisture wicking, anti-odor, and soft enough that you want to wear it every day.
Speaker 4:
[19:57] If that's not crazy enough, what's crazier is how much money you're going to save. You'll be annoyed at how much money you have.
Speaker 2:
[20:02] You'll buy new properties.
Speaker 4:
[20:03] Yeah. Their prices are 50 to 60% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Everything is designed to last.
Speaker 2:
[20:17] Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/dadville for free shipping and 365 day returns.
Speaker 4:
[20:24] That's a full calendar year.
Speaker 2:
[20:26] Would you let me finish, Jon? I'm so excited. But it's clawing. They want the information. Now available in Canada too, okay? So go to quince.com/dadville for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full calendar. quince.com/dadville. Watch what I do here. So when we think about Dadville, what you guys are doing in the therapy space, how do you guys when you guys are meeting with clients or even in y'all's life? I'm curious because we talk about this on Dadville some, but what does it look like as dads? So let's assume 20s, 30s, whatever, 40s where we are. How do you navigate friendships in vulnerable ways when, I think that phrase is so true that you can't make old friends. Because I think one of the things that I've felt, like I am an extreme extrovert. I love people. I can't have enough people. I love it. But even growing up, that was one of my things. I just always had a lot of friends and I still feel that way. But man, I can feel like it has winnowed down so much in my 30s, late 30s and 40s, especially being a dad. My time is so spoken for and so it's like my son just started a new school last year and I'm so proud because there's like one guy I've gotten to be really good friends with and I'm like, I'm doing it. But it's just hard. And so how do you guys, when y'all are thinking of your own lives and with the clients y'all are meeting with, how do y'all advise men that are in that season to navigate it well, one with being dads, Dadville, but also thinking of full vulnerability 3%, where it's like, how do y'all do that? Like, thank you. Because I think that the inherent difficulty is you do have limited time. So much of what we experience in friendships that make us closest time spent, it's memories made, it's experiences done together, and you just can't do as much of that. So for me, the new friendships I have is really over coffee or sitting by somebody at our kids basketball game, you know, so it's just harder. So how do y'all advise people to navigate that?
Speaker 5:
[22:48] I think one of the difficult things is it is really individual. I think that gets to something I talk a lot with clients about, which is how do you know what you need? I think it's really hard for men in particular to move towards what they are feeling. And not try to move around it, to avoid it, especially in the busyness of being a dad. Like it's like, oh, I'm feeling uncomfortable. I'm not even slowing down to name that. I'm going to kind of circumvent that. Not noticing like what is that discomfort saying? And sometimes in that discomfort, there's the loneliness that is really pervasive with men and dads right now. And if you can notice what you need, then you can kind of look towards, Annie Downs came on our show and she said this one thing that was like, notice what brought your heart alive? What was it? Or set your heart on fire when you were five? And like, how do you pursue the delights of your heart from then, now? And like you said, your time is limited. Well, that should also mean that we should be more intentional with what is sacred and brings our heart alive. Maybe you have less relationships now, even if you're an extrovert. But those relationships become deeply intentional. And so Blake and I don't have the opportunity to hang out in person all that much. I mean, we spend every Thursday working on this community, but the vast majority of our friendship has been over the phone. And some of that is because of how it started. But we have been friends now for almost a decade. And in that time, we probably have a cumulative number of days around like three or four months that we have not talked on the phone.
Speaker 2:
[24:54] Wow.
Speaker 4:
[24:55] Wow. And you guys have a unique friendship in that it started with super deep conversations from the get go.
Speaker 5:
[25:05] Right.
Speaker 3:
[25:05] Yeah. The analogy I use for that often is like, imagine going to the beach and most of the time, if going to the beach is like friendships, most of the time you make friends, it's through work, it's through shared interests or whatever. You're playing volleyball at the beach. Like it's kind of surface level. And that's where most friendships start. And then you kind of learn like who you're playing with, who feels like you have a connection with, and then you kind of wade out into the waters a little bit and see who is able to get deeper. And then maybe you have somebody that you can go deep sea fishing with. But when you meet somebody in 12 step recovery, you just sort of like, they take you out on a boat in the middle of the ocean and they just throw you, they tie an anchor at your ankle and then throw you at the very bottom and that's where you start. So you start in, it's been sort of like opposite for us because we started so deep. It's something we talk about often actually like, because of the way our relationship started, it's made us have a little bit of like an unfair expectation of how the rest of our friendships should be. And not like, you only need, there's some research around like how many people you actually need in like your inner innermost circle. And I have friends that I would also call my best friends, but they like, they don't know parts of my story that Jamie knows, or they're not the first person I call, or but we still have a very rich relationship. But it's like the, it's the whole spectrum where I was more like you Dave growing up, where I had lots of friends, very extroverted, lots of connections, but there wasn't much depth to those. And so now I'm trying to figure out like in my thirties, how to have, how to maintain the depth and also be okay with some of the surface because that's not all bad either.
Speaker 5:
[27:07] That's good actually.
Speaker 3:
[27:08] Yeah, it's very good.
Speaker 5:
[27:10] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[27:10] What do you guys think that it is that, I mean, I don't know, I'm no expert here, but you know, young girls and young boys, there seems to be no difference socially, like in general. Like it's not like little boys are our islands, lone wolves out there and then the girls are social. Why is it that when we get into our 40s, our 30s, our 40s, it is so rare on the whole for men to have tons of friends and like a vibrant social life. I mean, you know, like you mentioned like, well, we're just busy, we're dads. We have, but you know, my wife has just as many kids as I do.
Speaker 5:
[27:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, and she has tons of friends.
Speaker 2:
[28:00] Maybe just double check. I do need to fact check Jason just earmarked that we'll go back to it.
Speaker 4:
[28:06] But I wonder what, what I mean, that's a, that's maybe like an over simplified kind of question. It's so baked into just reality that sometimes you don't even stop to think about it. But I wonder why, what is the reason for that?
Speaker 5:
[28:22] I mean, I can speak from only anecdotal working with men evidence, not like, I have not read any of the studies on that. But I do think it gets back to what I was talking about before with needs, because when you are a kid, you have a lot of proximity friendships. If you think back to boys and girls when they are kids, many of their friendships are from school, they are from the neighborhood, they are proximity based friendships that are not really that intentional. In fact, they lack so much intention, that's why the casual insults or ways that they make each other angry don't hurt so bad because there is a lot less meaning put on the value of the relationship itself. You get older, and I think that men do, whether this is a culture thing, whether this is like the way that your family treats this, how you saw your dad have friendships. But I think that men are less in tune with what they need and therefore misattribute their needs to other things. And so we run out of proximity, that dwindles. And I think that has gotten worse year over year, if you look at like, you can read anything about social media and you're like, okay, this is part of where proximity started to go away, because we have this pseudo relationship that makes us feel like we have proximity. And so we devalue the need for real proximity even more. Yeah. But what it requires is us as men to recognize, I'm sad because I miss my friends. And then to then take that and move it from the self-awareness of I'm sad to the self-regulation of I'm choosing intentionality, I'm picking up the phone, I'm calling one of my friends, because friendships don't happen to you. They did when you were a kid. But friendships as an adult are things that you choose. I heard somebody say it on a podcast recently, like you can't, the grass is not greener on the other side, the grass is greener where you water it.
Speaker 2:
[30:42] I see that was episode 27.
Speaker 4:
[30:43] I can't remember.
Speaker 5:
[30:44] Yeah, it was. We couldn't remember how many you had.
Speaker 2:
[30:46] I think it was John who said that. He started it, I finished it. He was in the episode.
Speaker 5:
[30:51] And so I think that's some, I know for me, I'll say specifically for me, I think back about my friendships when I was a kid. The vast majority of them, I could walk to their house. And now my best friend is a 35-minute drive from me. And so if I want to be intentional, I either have to find a different way, which is why we have such a phone call based relationship. And I have to make intentional space to play. Like our phone calls set the safety for our play to be really sacred and filling when we get to have it.
Speaker 2:
[31:30] Yeah, that's a great way to say that. Yeah, you know what's funny? I remember talking to the therapist once and he said, it was kind of a hot take by him, but he was like, I actually think women are worse friends than men are. And so I think to kind of your point, Jon, when he said that, it really was interesting and he really believes this really and he has all this data that he would, and he's a therapist, so he's like, I meet with a lot of women and I'm telling you, I think they may be worse than men are. I think what, I like that in a lot of ways, one, because I think it infers that humans are all just kind of the same in some ways. In that way, I mean, obviously we're very different as men and women, but it infers this inherent loneliness we all deal with. I think it's a little, I don't know what you'd call it, like 20th century or something to kind of be like, well, women are these interconnected communities of people who are very vulnerable and know each other's needs. And the men are cavemen who get scared by the light and run back in. I remember when he said that, I was like, explain that. He's like, well, I just think women look like they're connected, but information is king, so it's not vulnerability is king. So it's like, they're just trying to know, like, what's going, okay, I know that, but he's like, I don't think that that means they're actually sharing their heart. They just know that's happening with them and they're kind of struggling with this and they may have a divorce. And so at first you think, man, do you know all this stuff about everything, but information isn't vulnerability. I mean, some of it is, but not all of it. And so I think, to your point, Jon, it's an interesting thing to think about that women struggle with that as much as we do. It just looks very different. Because I think you could probably poll a lot of women and say, hey, I mean, women, but like, how many of those do you know and know you? I think we might be surprised that it may be closer to what a man feels when we think. And so I think like, it's kind of the great bait and switch, I think, of the time we live in is that there's this kind of like, women are so interconnected and whatever. And I'm like, I don't know, man. I just wonder if we really sat with women that we knew and said, hey, not how many friends you have or how many coffees you're having a week or whatever that would look like in your communal sense. But like, you feel like these women know you? Like, do they know the 3%? And I don't know. I just, I wouldn't, you know, some people do it really well. I mean, men and women, you know, and that they're obviously the exceptions. But it's an interesting thing to think about because, you know, it encourages me in a weird way because I'm like, oh, I'm not some guy that's just plotting through my life, looking to the side and all these people are like, oh, we're just, we know everything about it. You know, we're just like, but, instead that I think it's an inherent problem just for humans just to know how to connect and not be alone. And what does that look like in connectivity? And obviously it's going to be different minimum, but it's just as important for both. And I think both struggle with it, you know, inherently just to be humans to do that, you know, and oddly enough, that's the reason why the little clip that came up on Microsoft for that would talk to you scared me to death. Really?
Speaker 4:
[34:34] That was your grandfather?
Speaker 2:
[34:35] Yes, his voice.
Speaker 4:
[34:37] You know, speaking of, Dave, when we started this podcast, I thought it was just going to be plugging a mic and talk, you know?
Speaker 2:
[34:44] Jon, I'm going to go, I did too, but then suddenly, tell them what we had to deal with.
Speaker 4:
[34:48] Well, then we had logos, we had uploads, we had scheduling, we had clips. I mean, it was overwhelming.
Speaker 2:
[34:53] We needed some type of magical assistance, Jon.
Speaker 4:
[34:57] Oh, Shopify. Something like Shopify would have been amazing to have at the start.
Speaker 2:
[35:01] Yeah, Shopify is basically your built-in business partner, whereas some people call it business partner. It powers millions of businesses. I'm so excited to say that word, I jumped ahead. Millions of businesses, huge brands to people just getting started.
Speaker 4:
[35:14] You know, and it puts everything in one place. Inventory.
Speaker 2:
[35:17] Not two, not three.
Speaker 4:
[35:18] Not two, not three places, just one place. You got your inventory, you got your payments, your analytics. So you're not duct taping together like five different apps.
Speaker 2:
[35:25] No, plus they've got AI tools that help write product descriptions, fix up your photos.
Speaker 4:
[35:30] Which would have saved us a few bad early ad ads.
Speaker 2:
[35:33] I don't love that. And when it's time to grow, you have email and social tools.
Speaker 4:
[35:37] Also Dave, surprised you didn't mention this, 24-7 support. So when you hit that wall at midnight, almost all day, every day, you're just spiraling. You're not just spiraling alone.
Speaker 2:
[35:47] You just spiraled for my great job, which may have happened. Listen, if I'm being honest with you, I've hit the wall once or twice before. Okay. That's right. I don't want to talk about it too much.
Speaker 4:
[35:54] So guys, listen, see less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and the shop pay button.
Speaker 2:
[36:01] Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/dadville.
Speaker 4:
[36:06] Go to shopify.com/dadville.
Speaker 2:
[36:08] That's one more time, shopify.com/dadville.
Speaker 4:
[36:21] Anyway, everyone was backstaying.
Speaker 2:
[36:24] No way! The entire cast of Disney.
Speaker 4:
[36:27] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[36:28] Wow.
Speaker 4:
[36:28] Anyway, speaking of production, Dave, I feel like improving your sleep has somehow become this whole production.
Speaker 2:
[36:34] I'm listening to you.
Speaker 4:
[36:35] Like new mattress, blackout curtains, supplements, tracking your REM cycles. It's exhausting just thinking about it. It makes me want to sleep, ironically.
Speaker 2:
[36:43] Yeah, can I tell you what's interesting?
Speaker 4:
[36:44] Please.
Speaker 2:
[36:45] It turns into a full lifestyle change, Jon.
Speaker 4:
[36:47] Oh, right. You know, and funny thing is I realized the issue for me wasn't any of that, Dave. It was just my bedding. My sheets were worn out. Like I pound those things. Corners popping off, you know, pillows kind of flat. And I didn't even notice how much it was affecting my sleep.
Speaker 2:
[37:04] You know, just like the Fantastic Four, that's the thing. Most people don't need a whole new system, Jon. They just need better stuff on their bed.
Speaker 4:
[37:11] Exactly. And that's why we upgraded the bowl and branch. I knew you knew that I was going to say it.
Speaker 2:
[37:16] I want to be clear, not you and I.
Speaker 4:
[37:17] No.
Speaker 2:
[37:18] We corporately, yeah, we corporately, but definitely not.
Speaker 4:
[37:21] It's wild how big of a difference it made immediately.
Speaker 2:
[37:24] They make everything, too. Everything, Jon. Not just sheets. Their signature organic cotton sheets, pillows, blankets, comforters. It's all designed to be super soft, breathable, and actually work together, just like us.
Speaker 4:
[37:36] You know, we started with the signature sheets. And the first night I got into bed, I knew this is different. This is softer. This is cooler. Okay. Just more comfortable overall.
Speaker 2:
[37:46] Though they didn't come with a signature. And that I want to be clear.
Speaker 4:
[37:49] Right. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:
[37:50] Their signature sheets, you're not going to get a Michael Jordan.
Speaker 4:
[37:52] We can't be more clear on that.
Speaker 2:
[37:54] And the sheets, they get, you know what? Just like me, Jon, which I don't like, they get softer over time.
Speaker 4:
[38:00] You know what? I'm trying to, but to quote Mercy, I mean, I can't imagine sleep without Bowlin Branch right now.
Speaker 2:
[38:06] Upgrade your sleep with Bowlin Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com/dadville with code Dadville.
Speaker 4:
[38:15] That's Bowlin Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com/dadville, code Dadville to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply.
Speaker 5:
[38:29] Can we hear y'all's take on-
Speaker 3:
[38:31] Yeah, I was gonna say, this is a shared podcast.
Speaker 5:
[38:33] Why you, yeah, like why you think relationship, I mean, you're like years ahead of us. And so there's a lot of wisdom to begin. But like, for real, like you as dads, how have you seen your relationships change? You were saying you felt dwindle and why do you make up that that is?
Speaker 2:
[38:56] I mean, I feel like what I've noticed is two things are shots to the bow of a man's relational life, I think, with other men. The first is your marriage. Because, you know, you kind of go, man, me and this dude, we are locked in. We are, we know each other. And then, you know, you start dating somebody and he's like, go. No, she's cool, man. And it's like you love her and she's great. And it's what God wants. But, you know, maybe it's just a little tricky for that friend or vice versa. You know, you're like, your bro is like, you gotta meet this girl. And you're like, she's, she's cool, you know? And so immediately, there's distance there. One, because then he or you have a partner that is taking some of that too. And so that energy gets split. But also because now she's informing thoughts you have. And she's making you, maybe changing positions on things that you guys were like, no, man. And it's like, I don't know, maybe she has a good point. And you're like, she needs to get the heck out of here. You know, so I think one is marriages and then a lot of times it can be helpful. So it's not always bad at all. But I think it's just kind of like a way it gets divided. And then I think kids to me are like, you know, because I had a friend of mine who's one of my wisest friends telling me this. He's like, man, marriage and kids is going to be with you and your friends. It's going to be the hard thing because ideologies come into view that there's no way to know without them. And none of them are bad or good or whatever. You just choose to do a thing and then they don't choose to do a thing. And it can be that you guys are in agreement on everything but you guys are going to this school or church and they're going to this. And then before you know it, you just don't see them as much. So it's not enmity, it's not, but you're just like, yeah, we're just not running in the same. So I think those things on just a bottom level without even getting deep or whatever are just like logistical, societal things that happen that you kind of look up and can go, you know, man, I love that guy. I mean, like he's like, we have tons of members here. I just don't see him as much. There's no reason that I don't like him or I don't choose to be with him. It's just, he's not in my purview as much because of these things, you know, which I think is really complicated.
Speaker 3:
[41:21] How old are y'all's kids? So Dave has three, you said that in the beginning.
Speaker 4:
[41:26] And I have two, and they stair step perfectly.
Speaker 2:
[41:29] From 14 to 9.
Speaker 4:
[41:30] 14, 13, yeah, all the way down to 9.
Speaker 5:
[41:32] Oh, fun.
Speaker 3:
[41:33] And you've been friends how long?
Speaker 4:
[41:36] 25 years.
Speaker 3:
[41:37] Yeah, okay. So how, like how has your friendship changed over the years?
Speaker 4:
[41:41] You know, it's funny, I was gonna say just as a side note, that last thing you were saying, Dave, one sort of little side note that I think about sometimes is, you know, I'm 43 and time is literally just moving differently than it did when I was 23. And I remember being like 13 and I remember my dad talking about this. Like I remember him talking about how time is different for him than it is for me when I was a kid. And now I feel it in real time. So it's like, you can have a buddy that you run into, like I had coffee with a friend of mine the other day, who I love this guy and we text and we, you know, comment on each other's Instagram posts and stuff like that. I haven't had coffee with him in literally years, like pre-COVID, but it doesn't feel that way partially because time is going so fast. So it's like, if I hang out with somebody, like three times a year, it's like, I see him all the time. But when I was like in my twenties, I saw him three times a year, it'd be like, we never even know.
Speaker 3:
[42:53] Are you guys even friends?
Speaker 4:
[42:54] It's just so wild how that's so different.
Speaker 3:
[42:57] Yeah, that's a really interesting point.
Speaker 4:
[42:58] But, I mean, Dave and I's friendship, a huge part of it obviously is music. That's how we met and that really like, we do this podcast together now, which just brings it to another level. But, we have somewhat stayed in the same orbit even before the podcast just because of music, you know? And for the first, what was that? For the first like 12 years or so, 13 years, we didn't live in the same state, let alone the same street. So, I mean, that's kind of been like a cheat code for us. It keeps us connected because of music.
Speaker 2:
[43:45] But, you know, to your point, I think like, you know, I've talked to people and it's rare, but every now and then I'll talk to someone who they decide to live next year.
Speaker 4:
[43:55] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[43:55] And they'll make a decision where they're like, you know, I talked to him about this like last month and it was an older guy. He was like, I think they were empty nesters and he was like, you know, we just decided like we wanted to live in this side of the town with our friends because that's where they live. And it's not somewhere we would have chosen, but we just really, the friendship matters and so we could and we did. And so I think there's also a piece that, you know, the season of life ran fascinates me because you make these decisions, we all make these decisions that are particular to this season, which is great. And, but sometimes can be challenging because you can kind of, I think you can kind of look up after the kids are out of the house or something and kind of realize like, oh man, like I didn't sort of game this out maybe like I thought. And now, you know, we're kind of in this place that we didn't really think about what being empty nesters here or, you know, the house is three times bigger than we needed to be, you know, or whatever those things are. And so I think to your point about intent, it's such a compelling thing to me to go, you know, how do we make decisions with our life that really do, that are in order with our desires, like our deep desires, not just our, you know, whatever those would be with logistical or whatever, but really like where our, I mean, that was, when Annie and I decided to stay in our house, you know, we had kind of our 10 year sit down, because Annie had kind of said, hey, after we're there for about a decade, I think I want to move to this other part of town where the yard's a little bigger and we can be further from Jon. And so, and that was her words, I was surprised by that.
Speaker 4:
[45:29] It was really vulnerable.
Speaker 2:
[45:30] It was, yeah. And she didn't say which Jon, I do want to say that.
Speaker 4:
[45:33] That's fair.
Speaker 2:
[45:34] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[45:36] She was looking at me though and she did mouth McLaughlin.
Speaker 2:
[45:39] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[45:39] And she was like, it's you, put it in my mouth, put it in my lips.
Speaker 2:
[45:43] But it was funny to sit down and talk about that a couple years ago because we kind of had our state of the union and we both really came to the place where we're like, look, you know, the McLaughlins are across the street, the Kandroses are up the hill. We have, I mean, there's just a lot of people who live really close and it's not that we wanted to live anyway, but that really mattered. I think we were like, we get so much value from the time we get to see our friends and knowing that it's just as easy that Jon walks outside and then I walk over there because I'm like, hey, you know, like that's that is unbelievably valuable to us. And so I think it really it was it was fun to realize like, oh, man, that is a compelling thing to stay where we are and to really know that we have this we're in this season where people are just physically close to us that in book and then I see them more because of that. Like I do interact with them more because of that. And so it takes one thing off the table of going another piece of intent. They're like, OK, it's that and then we got to make sure. And it's like, oh, that one I have to worry about because I'm just going to see them. So now it's about when I see them, can we have connective conversations and be really in relationship together?
Speaker 5:
[46:52] It's so foundationally intentional.
Speaker 4:
[46:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:
[46:56] That's like you intended to create proximity. Now you don't have to be intentional to create that with regularity, right, because that already happens. That's so great.
Speaker 2:
[47:05] Right. How do y'all like how do you guys try to when you think of men that are struggling with loneliness, you know, that sit and really say like, you know, whether they know that or you can help them realize that. How do y'all where do you go from there? Like, what does it look like? What are the steps y'all give them to kind of feel integrated into relationships or to sort of help that?
Speaker 3:
[47:28] You're looking at me.
Speaker 5:
[47:29] I was just talking a bunch. I feel like, go ahead.
Speaker 3:
[47:31] I didn't know if you were looking at me like you're like, say the thing. It felt like you were like telling them one thing.
Speaker 2:
[47:37] Do the thing that you do.
Speaker 5:
[47:39] No, I just want to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 3:
[47:41] I personally think that we overcomplicate it.
Speaker 2:
[47:44] Wow.
Speaker 3:
[47:44] Sometimes like the thing that I learned about loneliness for me that was most impactful is that it's not the absence of relationships.
Speaker 2:
[47:55] Wow.
Speaker 3:
[47:56] It's the quality of them.
Speaker 2:
[47:59] That's good.
Speaker 3:
[47:59] It's like I mentioned earlier, like I had lots of friends and relationships or even in my marriage, like I can feel lonely with my wife.
Speaker 2:
[48:07] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[48:08] I can feel lonely with Jamie if I can tell that he's not being fully honest with me, like I can feel lonely with someone. So we are therapists in a pretty unique area of the country, and a lot of my clients, not everybody, but most of my clients would say they have at least a couple peer relationships, like outside of their partner or their spouse, they have a couple relationships, be it somebody from work or again, like a shared interest, somebody they play, pick a basketball with or somebody they do music with, like whatever. They have the connection, and then they'll come into my office and talk about like how, or eventually explore and find out like how lonely they're feeling, or and then I'll be curious with them about like who knows about this, like who else other than me are you processing this with? And it's like, well, nobody, that's why I come to you. It's like, well, that's good, and this is a good place to start, but this every week or every other week is only going to do so much. Like you need, you deserve for other people to be walking through this with you. And so, like I share this story, I've shared it multiple times because I've gotten consent from this client to share it without giving away any details. I've seen this guy, this is an example, this is how I would answer your question. I've seen this guy who maybe was in his mid to late 40s. I've been working with him for a year and a half maybe, and he was in just a really rough place personally in his marriage. And he was going on this fishing trip with a bunch of his buddies from college. Every year, they would go to some beautiful place in the country and go fly fishing. Twelve guys, and they've done this every year since college, so for a couple decades. And he knew about the 3% concept, and he had used it some in session, and it was starting to help him be more honest about his story. And so I was just asking him how he feels about going on this trip, and how he feels about letting these guys in, and his response was like, I'm not going to do that. Again, it's like, this is why I see you. So there was a lot of gentle encouragement for me of, like, why don't you just try? Like, vulnerability breeds vulnerability. It usually just takes one person. And he went on this trip, ended up getting the courage to share what was really going on with him. And to his surprise, not to mine, but to his surprise, there was like six or seven other guys that opened up about stuff that they were going through. And he came back and he was like, it was the best trip that we've ever had. And we caught no fish. It was the worst fishing trip we've ever had.
Speaker 2:
[50:57] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[50:58] But the conversations were so rich. And he was like, if I didn't share anything, I probably would have, it would have been like every other year where we would have gone and had fun and talked about sports weather news and then, and work. And then we would have left and they wouldn't have really known each other. So it kind of depends on like, again, it's a little bit individualistic, which is such a therapist answer, but if you're somebody who doesn't have the luxury of having those at least one or two peer relationships, there's like places and things that you can do to foster those. But a lot of us, I would maybe imagine that a lot of people listening do have at least one or two, but there's just like a great fear of kind of going back to even the beginning when we were talking about the 3% idea is there's just like a great fear of what will happen if I go, like for this guy. We've never had these kind of conversations really in 20 years, so if I lead with this, I don't have any idea how it's going to be responded. We had to work through that. I wasn't telling him that it was for sure going to be great. You could leave and feel like really, you could feel even more lonely because you opened up your heart and it wasn't received. But I was like, there's 12 guys and I know the odds of somebody else is struggling.
Speaker 5:
[52:22] It's so crazy.
Speaker 4:
[52:23] The stories that we tell ourselves. Like if you would frame that guy's situation, which I've been in that situation. So it's like, okay, these are your college friends. You guys have been friends for 20 plus years. So much so that you make it a point that you fly someplace every year to be together, take time off work. And yet he felt like, well, these 12 guys who love me enough to have maintained this friendship would, if I told them X would what? I don't know. But that's such a common story that we tell ourselves. And it's so often with the people who love us the most. Like when you were talking about the Cabo Armante thing that he said, what's so tragic about that? Me thinking about my two daughters feeling that about me and my wife. And it's like, girls, you will. And of course, we say this to them, just as my parents said this to me, you can do anything. There's nothing you could do that would change my love for you. There's nothing you could say, there's nothing you could do. You can literally tell us anything. But we just, I don't know, we don't believe it. We tell ourselves these stories. It's so tragically common, you know?
Speaker 2:
[53:52] Yeah, Jon has heard me say this a thousand billion times. But one of my favorite quotes, and I don't know who said it, but a guy told me years ago, was anytime we come together sharing our strengths, it breeds competition. Anytime we come together sharing our weaknesses, it breeds community. I think the thing that I found years ago, and it's so encouraging, is that it became this really weird game with me then, of if I had a friendship that I was just like, this is just not clicking, I'd be like, no, I'll just share something vulnerable. I'd be like, you know what I mean? It was just like, and every now and then it'd be like somebody didn't know well, and they're like, well, it sucks for you. I'm going to get out of here, and you're like, okay, well, that was.
Speaker 5:
[54:36] I'm an open wound to see you later.
Speaker 4:
[54:38] I only hang with winners.
Speaker 3:
[54:41] Or they just start giving you unsolicited advice.
Speaker 2:
[54:43] Oh, bro, that's sick, whatever the thing is. Yeah, but what I found, and I've told people this, too, to encourage them is like, you know, and it's really funny, it really is, I think, maybe the greatest life hack for this thing is if you find yourself in a conversation with someone you're trying to connect with, and not just be vulnerable. And it's, I mean, 90% of the time, for me, it's like, they'll go, dude. And then it's like, all of a sudden, it's like, the whole thing shifts, and there's this communication that's made, and it's beautiful, and the connection. And so I think to your point, and what you were just saying too, Jon, is it's so powerful, and I would also add that I think the more you do it, the more comfortable you are with it. And so, you know, where you would think it's more terrifying, it's actually not, it's like, because I think then you really can understand that, man, this is, I'm not weird in having this struggle. Two, it's, man, it tends to really unite me to my friends. And three, I'm less shameful for it the more I talk about it. And so it's a really cool, it really, that quote changed my life probably 20 years ago because it just sort of gave me this way to navigate that helped me connect more with people. And then sometimes give them permission to connect more too. And so now, you know, and he'll grab him, I think words is maybe the greatest at this in the world. He's so gifted with this. But any every now and then will grab him and be like, it feels like maybe a little too much for a dinner party. I'm like, okay, you know, but I think, you know, but I think that only comes from this thing of being in practice of that. And I mean, it needs to be appropriate. Lord knows that's not what I'm saying. But you know, there is this way to be in the world that is really powerful because it takes the shame away. It really does. It's like, when you hear enough people relate to something, you realize like, oh, this is, why was that so? Then I don't mind talking about that more now because it's, I'm not the only person.
Speaker 4:
[56:47] The story you were telling yourself seems so ridiculous.
Speaker 2:
[56:49] Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[56:51] There's even a saying they have in 12 step that is what we feel on the inside doesn't match what we see on the outside of other people. And so that's like the story we're telling ourselves. I believe that I'm the only one who feels it because I'm looking at your exterior.
Speaker 2:
[57:04] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[57:05] Which is why the loneliness thing gets harder and harder the more that social media is bigger and bigger. Because we see the curated outside of others only. And that breeds an even deeper loneliness and desire for isolation.
Speaker 2:
[57:17] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[57:17] And so to your point, it does get easier and easier. I would be a case study in that. I was like 0% honest with people. I curated everything. But that gets at like a longer form, like my story of big trauma. Everything had to be curated to be safe. And so then coming out of that, it was like I didn't stop doing that. I just curated it differently to make other people think that I was doing well after this thing. So they didn't look at me differently.
Speaker 2:
[57:47] Well, and you know what's so interesting about that, that sort of is baked into being a parent is, and Jon and I talk about this all the time, and it's something we are in so much agreement around, is that apologizing to your kids is just such a big deal. And to your point, Jamie, about, so then you would think like, what does that look like as a parent? And well, then that, you need to be very careful because obviously it's wildly inappropriate to share lots of things with your kids until they're a certain age because it just rocks. You know, it's not like they're like, I don't know how to think about this. Are we gonna run out of money, daddy? It's been a slow month, son, that's why he's crying. What do you mean slow month, daddy? Do I need to go back to the minds? But you know, I think the way we actually do that with our kids is that. It's probably the most profound thing for a long time is just to ask for their forgive, their forgiveness, ask them to forgive you. Ask for the, well that was a 40 and it's slightly true. But you know, it's like that's, that's like the, would you ask me to come back in here? Ask me for forgiveness, come back in here. But it is such a great way, it's such a great way to engage that to your point because it kills a paradigm that the parents are alpha never making mistakes. But it also introduces this posture, it introduces this truth to them that, man, dad messes up and when he does, he tells me. So he's not impenetrable. Now he's still dad and he's still, I love him and I respect him and those things. But it just sort of kills that weird fourth wall or whatever of like, hey son, like get it together because I got it together. Daughter, whatever it is. But instead they're like-
Speaker 4:
[59:30] And when you don't have it together, you don't have to cover it up in my presence.
Speaker 2:
[59:34] That's right.
Speaker 4:
[59:35] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[59:36] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[59:36] I feel like with social media, the sort of accounts that show, and I should say I'm guilty of doing it as well. You take some perfectly curated shot, or you take the best shot of the year and put it up as like, oh, this is just me as a dad.
Speaker 5:
[59:58] This is how I was 24 seven.
Speaker 2:
[59:58] Found this on my camera roll.
Speaker 4:
[60:01] I'm like, guys, anytime some other parent shares some fail, I'm like, thank you, thank you. Especially in the parenting realm. I'm like, that's encouraging. You know, like, so.
Speaker 2:
[60:19] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[60:19] We had our mutual friend, David Thomas on.
Speaker 2:
[60:22] Oh, man. He's amazing.
Speaker 3:
[60:24] Yeah, the mayor of Dadville. That's right. And he said something that I will never forget, because he's somebody, we asked him about this. He's somebody who is like, from the outside looking in, a great dad. And he told us that, I think he invited his kids out for lunch or coffee. It's been a long week, okay? It's breaking down already. It's been a long week. Do you hear my voice? We've been to the pediatrician three times last week, okay? So it's been a week.
Speaker 2:
[61:00] I do not miss those days.
Speaker 3:
[61:02] Whatever he said, it was really good. Essentially that he like invited his adult kids to lunch. And cause it was what you were talking about, like the forgiveness piece and like invited his kids whenever they felt ready to talk to him about what he missed. Not like what he did wrong.
Speaker 5:
[61:21] Yeah, the places in their story that he still missed them.
Speaker 3:
[61:23] Yeah. And I was like, if either of my parents ever had done it, that would be such a gift. And I think one of the real potential like downfalls of parenting today when we have so much information of how to like raise securely attached kids and be like emotionally attuned parents. Like we have so much information of how to do that well that generations before us didn't have. The temptation is to think that we're gonna like do it so well. And maybe we even will do it more well than generations before us. But like to our kids, it doesn't matter because it's just their experience.
Speaker 2:
[62:07] That's right. It's not in comparison to something else.
Speaker 3:
[62:10] They're still gonna be missed and they're still gonna feel alone.
Speaker 5:
[62:14] And they still wouldn't trade you for anybody else.
Speaker 3:
[62:16] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[62:16] Even if you miss them or they feel alone.
Speaker 2:
[62:19] Well, and to I think there's different iterations of that. Because I think like, you think about like, so let's say you're 25 and a single guy and you're like, man, I've lived four years out of college or whatever, whatever your experience is, but like, I've got some road, you know, I've got some road miles on me now. Hey, dad, like, you know, I've noticed is like, I really struggle with this thing. And he's like, oh man, you know, like, I'm so sorry and, you know, sorry, that and whatever, right? Well, then you get married. And boy, I always tell people, this is the weirdest analogy, but I love it to always say it. But it's like, you know, when you get married, it's like you bring someone into the family room and you, and they're like, and you're like, that's the Barnes family tapestry. And they're like, whoa, what's the what's the dragon eating the baby? And you're like, oh, that's the dragon eating baby. And they're like, why is that tree on fire? And it's got puppies in it. Like, that's the fire tree, puppy tree, fire tree. And they're like, and then you start going, why is that up there? But it's just something you've seen all your life. So like, that's our tapestry. And so then you have that second conversation. You're like, man, my wife has brought up some really interesting things that I didn't know without someone else that's close to me saying, these are things. And then you have kids. And that's another round, which I actually think is actually more gracious than the first two. Because then you go, man, dad, I probably came in a little hot with some things I didn't know at the time. Now having done this, you know, that wasn't quite as bad as I thought it was or whatever. And so you kind of have these, you know, Ebenezer moments in your life where you're interacting with your parents or your kids, you're interacting with you and I think it's just every time of those is a chance to then go, you know, okay, let's talk, you know, sort of more about what that looks like and to be gracious in those seasons. But you don't really ever get away from it. You know, I think that's what's so funny.
Speaker 4:
[64:16] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[64:17] My experience of growing and even changing my relationship or like how I address my relationship with my family, what you're saying is so true. Because I like come out of this story of some bigger T-trauma, get to do some work on that, have a lot of anger come out about like being missed in my family system. Do more work on that and get to the point now as a dad where I go, okay, like there's a big difference between intentionally malicious and unintentionally not caring.
Speaker 2:
[64:58] Well, that's really well said. Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[65:00] It really opens the door for a lot of, I've told Blake this, I think there are stories where it's maybe it's not intentionally malicious, but it's still neglectful. And in my story where it's like that was maybe not intentionally caring, and it could be felt as malicious, but it's not.
Speaker 2:
[65:20] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[65:21] And so I want to honor the people who like, there are stories where you were, it was malicious. That wasn't mine, but I experienced mine that way. And I had to grow into feeling like, oh, my expectation of you was wrong. And how I interpreted that was a yes and of like, it was really hurtful and you didn't mean to do that.
Speaker 2:
[65:43] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[65:44] And it opens up that ability to have an apology, but it also showed me the real value of parents apologizing to their kid. I love that you brought that up. Yeah. I think that's the biggest gift that a parent can give their kid is a humble and appropriate apology.
Speaker 2:
[66:01] Oh yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[66:03] Well, then I am crushing it.
Speaker 2:
[66:04] I was gonna say you have not met better parents than me and Jon. Yeah. It's a, I sort of love and hate that my kids are so used to Annie and I doing that, but it is so important.
Speaker 3:
[66:16] And I think, you know, it's like, Hey dad, you haven't apologized for anything today.
Speaker 2:
[66:19] Everything okay? What are you not telling us? Dead gumming. Okay. Come here.
Speaker 4:
[66:23] When they are like, well, you need to apologize. But I'm like, that's not how it works.
Speaker 2:
[66:27] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[66:27] I determine when an apology.
Speaker 2:
[66:29] Now that said, I did want to bring something up.
Speaker 4:
[66:31] I apologize that I taught you that. I was a misstep.
Speaker 2:
[66:38] Yeah. I think there's something really, I think God is very kind to me. And I would assume maybe some other people feel this way, but it has been, parenting has really given me so much more respect to all my parents, you know? And I think while I don't really love the phrase, someday you'll see, or you'll understand someday, it's a trigger for me.
Speaker 3:
[66:59] Same.
Speaker 2:
[67:00] It's true. It really is. And I mean, I think...
Speaker 4:
[67:02] Well, that's what hurts the most about it, is that you don't like it and it's true.
Speaker 3:
[67:06] It's true, but oftentimes it's, at least in my experience, it can be used as like a minimization of your experience where you just don't get it yet.
Speaker 2:
[67:17] But you understand sometimes why people say that, because it's true. And it's like, I could say that to my kids about things. And we've said that to them, you know? Where they'll be like, look, bud, you'll know someday. And so it is kind of a grace, I think, to have kids and then be able to... And I've had friends of mine who've really had hard relationships with their parents. And they've said, like, man, having my own kids gave me so much more grace for... And I think this is true. This is something that Micah and I talked about years ago before we were even married, much less kids. But I do think for the most part, every parent is doing the best they know to do. Now, the problem is what they know can be really bad. And so the bar can be really low because their experience was so bad. And so I think with that grace, you kind of realize that as a parent, because I mean to be doing phenomenal things, with now the execution of said things. So that's the grace that my kids are gonna have to give me is just knowing that even now there's things that I've just missed on that they're gonna have to, not have to, I hope that they will have the grace to say, you know, that's the thing. Jon and I are talking about this. I think I say this probably too much, but that's why I think intent is so important. I think that my kids know what I intend, whether I do it or not. And I know that sounds like a sort of a fail switch, but I think if they know that my heart toward them is right, my ability to pull off what I mean to do, there's a little more grace for it, because I think they can go, well, Dad, we know you love us. Look, you botched that so badly, or you totally missed me on that, but I know your heart. Like, it's not to, it's kind of what you're saying, Jamie. It's not to, if anything, it's just neglect in a way you didn't mean to. But I know, and that's such an important thing for me and my kids, that they know my heart. I really want them to see that.
Speaker 5:
[69:02] How do they know your hearts?
Speaker 2:
[69:05] Yeah, good question.
Speaker 4:
[69:07] As you're saying that, I'm like, is it sort of this, I don't know what the analogy is, but like it feels like this sort of like balance, it's like a scale where it's like, well, when you're lacking in, in like the experiential reality, the intent can save you, but the intent only gets, you know, weighted up with experiential stuff. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:
[69:33] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[69:33] So it's sort of like, you can borrow from one when one's low, but you got to fill that one.
Speaker 2:
[69:37] Yeah, that's a really good way to put that.
Speaker 5:
[69:39] Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[69:40] That'll be in the Dadville book.
Speaker 5:
[69:42] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[69:42] The Dadville book.
Speaker 4:
[69:43] That'll be probably on the back cover. Can I ask you guys something before we wrap up? And we can cut this if you want, but I always think about this anytime I'm chatting with a therapist.
Speaker 3:
[69:55] Buckle up.
Speaker 4:
[69:57] Do you, are you ever just like a couple of things? Are you ever sitting there listening?
Speaker 3:
[70:03] Analyzing you this whole time? Yes.
Speaker 4:
[70:04] Well, there's that. You've got to be-
Speaker 2:
[70:07] You can just sit here and write it. You would hear my theories.
Speaker 5:
[70:09] I'll bill you later.
Speaker 2:
[70:10] Yeah, please. We'll write y'all a song if y'all would just send us what you think of it.
Speaker 4:
[70:15] That is like, you couldn't escape it. You would have to be analyzing people all the time, I would imagine. But are you ever sitting there and like, you know, when you're driving sometimes and all of a sudden you're like, wait, I haven't been paying attention for the last half mile.
Speaker 2:
[70:28] Oh, I.
Speaker 4:
[70:30] Like you ever, somebody's, you know, talking and you're like, oh, they're about to wrap up their sentence. And I was just thinking about where I'm getting lunch. Or you're listening to them, but you're like, I honestly have no idea what to say to them.
Speaker 2:
[70:46] That's what I'd be most scared of.
Speaker 4:
[70:50] I feel like that's what I would, I would, I'd be like, I need to take a walk for a minute.
Speaker 2:
[70:54] Have you thought of going to a therapist?
Speaker 4:
[70:58] I have great recommendations.
Speaker 3:
[71:01] I saw a great meme one time that was like, you're the therapist and you're hearing your client and you're thinking, gosh, they really need to see a therapist. And then you realize that it's you.
Speaker 4:
[71:13] That would be my nightmare.
Speaker 5:
[71:14] I definitely...
Speaker 3:
[71:16] Not for me. I'll let Jamie speak.
Speaker 2:
[71:19] I'm amazing at what I do.
Speaker 5:
[71:23] It completely depends on my energy level for the first question. So now having young kids, I have to be really careful about... It changed the way that I do my sessions. Before I was someone who took maybe a little bit too much pride in not using a notebook when I met with clients, I would just remember everything they said. That felt like... I used to be like, it just feels like this gift that I have that when I'm that focused in on somebody, it kind of sticks. Yeah. Then I was up four times a night for the last five years. And...
Speaker 2:
[72:05] They're like, I'm sorry, Jamie, you're drooling? You're like, I'm sorry. Yes. No, keep... I'm sorry. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:
[72:11] Were your eyes just closed?
Speaker 2:
[72:13] I was praying for you while you talked.
Speaker 5:
[72:15] That's actually a spiritual integration practice.
Speaker 2:
[72:18] Sorry, Bill. It's Bob. Sure. Bob.
Speaker 5:
[72:20] Whatever. So now I combat that by taking notes. And when I am... That keeps me pretty much mentally engaged. Yeah.
Speaker 2:
[72:32] Let's go.
Speaker 5:
[72:33] And... Yeah. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:
[72:36] For the second question, yes. Yes, I definitely don't know what to say at times, many times. And I wrote about this recently, actually. I think we're seeing a lot of people rely more and more on AI as like a suede therapist, ChatGPT. And there are elements of it that can be helpful, but you combine it with like the loneliness epidemic that we've been talking about, and then you combine it with this thing that is... I mean, we were listening to your dad GPT, and I think you said, you were like, it's scary how good it is and how accurate it is.
Speaker 2:
[73:16] I would not ever use it. Go ahead. Yeah, no.
Speaker 3:
[73:21] And so like people are getting these, like asking these questions about their relationship or their internal world or whatever and getting these like really smart, pretty accurate, specific answers that are like overly affirming, not challenging.
Speaker 2:
[73:38] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[73:38] Unless you ask it to challenge you and then it still is like, that's so great of you to ask to be challenged. You know, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There is, there is. I'm not, I'm not necessarily worried about like AI taking my job because I think there is the imperfectness of the human relationship, even therapeutically, like there's so much growth and change that can happen there. Of a situation of like, yeah, I actually don't know, I don't know what to say right now. Yeah. Let's explore what that's like for both of us, rather than like getting the answer that you want every single time.
Speaker 4:
[74:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:
[74:19] The way that my supervisor in grad school said it was that content is sexy, but it's a trap. So like every time, exactly what Blake just did is called engaging the process. So anytime somebody is saying something and I'm thinking so much about how I can say the perfect thing in response to them, then I've gotten trapped. It means that I'm missing that I'm getting caught in their internal dialogue or their personal drama cycle, and I actually need to draw attention to the cycle and not try to fix the content of that cycle. So most of the time, being a therapist is so much less about having the right thing to say and more about being able to continually pull back to the framing of the whole process.
Speaker 2:
[75:07] Wow, that's good.
Speaker 3:
[75:08] It's kind of true of social media too. The content is so...
Speaker 2:
[75:11] Oh, I was like, isn't that Instagram's thing? Yeah, or Instagram's tagline, it's so true.
Speaker 4:
[75:17] It's fascinating to me what you guys do.
Speaker 2:
[75:20] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[75:21] It's fascinating to me too.
Speaker 2:
[75:22] Yeah, I mean it's unbelievable. Thank y'all for hanging.
Speaker 4:
[75:27] Yeah, thank you for having us.
Speaker 5:
[75:28] This is so fun.
Speaker 3:
[75:30] The Super PowerPod.
Speaker 2:
[75:31] I know, I know. And again, do send the write up. Don't have it be chat, TBT by the way. And don't include me, just say Jon, just kind of say what you feel like Jon can work on.
Speaker 5:
[75:42] That's great. We'll do that. I've got notes.
Speaker 2:
[75:44] Dum dum dum.
Speaker 1:
[75:53] Stitch Fix. Shopping is hard.
Speaker 4:
[75:55] Let's talk about it. I don't have time to shop, so I buy all my clothes where I buy my seafood.
Speaker 2:
[76:00] I just want someone to tell me what shirt goes with what pants.
Speaker 5:
[76:03] I just want jeans that fit.
Speaker 4:
[76:05] Stitch Fix makes shopping easy.
Speaker 1:
[76:07] Just show your size, style and budget, and your stylist sends personalized looks right to your door.
Speaker 5:
[76:12] No subscription required plus free shipping and returns.
Speaker 1:
[76:15] Man, that was easy.
Speaker 5:
[76:16] That looked good.
Speaker 3:
[76:17] Stitch Fix, online personal styling for everyone.
Speaker 1:
[76:20] Take your style quiz today at stitchfix.com.