transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:13] What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Viall Files Reality Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my wonderful, pregnant, gorgeous, smart, articulate, and talented wife. We also have members of the household with us, Justin, sweet boy, Justin. You know him, you love him. And Mary is with us. We have a fantastic episode lined up for you. The incomparable and legendary host of Temptation Island joins us to preview our upcoming reunion of Temptation Island, which premieres on The Viall Files, part one on Wednesday, part two on Friday. We also have pop culture commentator, Courtney Revolution with us. It's a jam packed fun episode, lots to get into. How are you guys doing? Do you have a fun? I know you guys had a busy weekend. They were working hard on the reunion.

Speaker 2:
[00:59] It's very juicy.

Speaker 3:
[01:00] It's pretty juicy.

Speaker 2:
[01:01] There's a lot of vocal stims that people will have from this reunion.

Speaker 4:
[01:04] Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3:
[01:06] Well, I almost filed for divorce.

Speaker 1:
[01:10] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[01:11] That's very...

Speaker 3:
[01:12] Yeah. I don't feel like this is news to you. I feel like you definitely...

Speaker 1:
[01:16] Is it because of Madonna?

Speaker 3:
[01:18] Not necessarily. I mean, that's definitely like kind of, I guess could play a part if you want to do. Nick's been like listening to Madonna one song over and over on repeat with his like headphones in, and he's just sitting in the backyard and he's like... I texted him, what are you doing? And he said, jamming. Awful.

Speaker 5:
[01:40] That's awesome.

Speaker 3:
[01:40] And then said, I can turn it off if you want to come join me. And then I came out and then he turned it through the, like the big speaker.

Speaker 1:
[01:50] Cause I wanted to play dad's favorite song for his daughter.

Speaker 3:
[01:53] Yeah. And then he...

Speaker 5:
[01:54] Which is...

Speaker 1:
[01:55] Hung up by Madonna.

Speaker 3:
[01:56] Hung up by Madonna.

Speaker 5:
[01:57] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[01:58] And he was like trying to dance with River. And she was kind of like, no dad, stop. Stop what you're doing.

Speaker 1:
[02:04] It was major, major, major ik vibes. And you know what? I didn't care. I've never, I was reminded by Madonna. Obviously Madonna, we're talking about her because she came out during Sabrina Carpenter's set at Coachella. She slayed. Iconic. It was iconic. That was the first, I mean, Justin Bieber aside, he's great. I've seen him in cons before. Props to Justin Bieber. He's the king. Everyone loved him. But missing that Madonna moment was something I was very jealous of. I was reminded of how much I love Madonna. And the song Hung Up came out when I was in my early 20s. And it used to be the song I'd work out to. And I would just play it on repeat. And it makes me feel alive. It makes me feel like if I had a movie about my life in my main character movie, like this is one of my theme songs and it's part of a dance battle sequence that would be played during the movie of my life.

Speaker 5:
[03:00] Like that scene in Anchorman?

Speaker 1:
[03:02] Yes. There's this, have you ever seen the hung up video? There's this moment where Madonna, she's wearing like jeans and a leather jacket and she's walking to the beat and she looks like such a badass. It makes me feel alive. I have no apologies whatsoever for my-

Speaker 3:
[03:16] I'm glad that Madonna can give that impression on him.

Speaker 1:
[03:19] It's like, I can't explain just how fucking, I just feel good. Anyways, it also gives my wife the edge.

Speaker 5:
[03:26] This is my favorite thing you've ever said.

Speaker 2:
[03:28] Natalie, what was your POV of looking out the window and seeing Nick jam? I just wanna know what that looks like.

Speaker 3:
[03:33] He was standing outside of our bedroom window and was thrusting and fist bumping. And for me, that was hard to watch.

Speaker 1:
[03:43] Hung Up is a remake of a disco song. So first of all, it's like watching your husband dance to disco.

Speaker 3:
[03:49] And no, it's like being in one of those clubs that have the headphones only. But you don't have the headphones. Silent disco. Yeah, you're just watching everyone jam out. I did in fact have to text my sister a screenshot. And I texted Nick saying, what are you doing? He said, outside jamming, come. I said, jamming? He said, listening to Madonna on my headphones, but I can turn off. I said, oh boy. I sent it to my sister. She said, we love the honesty and open book. I put in quotes, on my headphones. She said, what if he said, outside listening to ACDC, better or worse? I said, in quotes, head banging a little. She said, I can turn it off, I guess, if I have to. But like, I can turn it off. If you want to come out, I guess I'll turn it off. And then to put it on the speaker and just play it louder. It was like, this is not. But that's not why I wanted to file for divorce.

Speaker 1:
[04:39] That's not?

Speaker 3:
[04:40] No.

Speaker 1:
[04:40] Oh my God. Was it the gum?

Speaker 3:
[04:42] Was it the gum? Guys, last night, I put on, I put on my new PJs, my new jammies, They're new? My new jammie juice. Yep. And Nick's like, let's watch the Peaky Blinders movie. I'm like, okay, cute. Nick puts River down to go to bed. I meet him upstairs, sit down on the couch. We're watching the movie. I stand up and I put my hand on my butt and feel gum.

Speaker 2:
[05:12] Oh no.

Speaker 3:
[05:13] Gum. He left his chewed gum on a couch cushion.

Speaker 1:
[05:19] Oops.

Speaker 3:
[05:20] Like what psychopath does that?

Speaker 2:
[05:24] And are we more worried about the couch cushion or your pajamas?

Speaker 3:
[05:27] I'm not worried about the couch cushion because it's all over my pants.

Speaker 2:
[05:30] Okay, so transfer it on to you.

Speaker 1:
[05:32] Clearly this fat ass squished it. It was Natalie's hot smoking ass that melted the gum to whatever degree it needed to be melted, so it would then attach to her.

Speaker 3:
[05:41] Crazy. That's crazy.

Speaker 5:
[05:43] Oh, sorry, I misunderstood. I thought Nick put his chewed up piece of gum on your couch, not just left it sticking.

Speaker 2:
[05:50] He did.

Speaker 1:
[05:50] I did.

Speaker 3:
[05:50] That is exactly what he did.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] He chewed it up.

Speaker 5:
[05:53] He put your chewed up?

Speaker 1:
[05:55] Not on purpose. I don't know how it got there.

Speaker 3:
[05:57] It wasn't an accident that you set it on the couch.

Speaker 1:
[06:00] No, it was an accident. I don't know how it got there.

Speaker 3:
[06:02] No, you purposefully were like, oh, I'm gonna set that there and kept playing his game.

Speaker 1:
[06:05] I was absolutely too busy listening to Madonna.

Speaker 2:
[06:07] Nick, Madonna teleported you back into your childhood where you put gum on the desk.

Speaker 5:
[06:13] Confessions on a dance floor, part two, Nick sticks his gum everywhere.

Speaker 2:
[06:17] Wait, so Natalie, what did you do with the gum? Because I know how you're supposed to get it off the pajamas.

Speaker 1:
[06:22] Ice and hairspray, right?

Speaker 3:
[06:24] You better fill them in.

Speaker 2:
[06:25] You freeze your clothes so that it detaches.

Speaker 3:
[06:28] I told him he needed to get this out of my pants immediately.

Speaker 1:
[06:32] Send me the link.

Speaker 3:
[06:33] To what?

Speaker 1:
[06:34] Buy new pajama pants.

Speaker 3:
[06:35] I found them at TJ Maxx.

Speaker 2:
[06:38] There is no link.

Speaker 3:
[06:39] It was a find at TJ Maxx of like, oh my god, so soft, so cozy.

Speaker 1:
[06:44] Perfect for- I'll get it out.

Speaker 2:
[06:46] If you freeze it at all, maybe hopefully 80% come out.

Speaker 3:
[06:49] Also, Nick is-

Speaker 1:
[06:51] Or adding.

Speaker 3:
[06:52] Well, this isn't like adding to the divorce. This is just like cute. But he, you know, we're trying to, trying is a stretch. We are not trying. But we are attempting to think about possibly trying the sleep train river a little bit so that way when the twins come, she's not in our bed every single night like she is currently. Right now, we put her to bed in her crib and then she wakes up and then she comes into our bed, and then she sleeps with us the rest of the night. And we're like, oh, maybe before the twins come, we should like not have her do that because then like twins waking up every two hours, it's just not going to be good for anybody. So we've been talking about thinking about trying to not do that. And now Nick is not even waiting for her to wake up. He's just like, should I go get her? I'm just gonna, should I just go wake her up now? I'm like, what if this was the night that she slept through? He's like, I don't know, I can't sleep. I'm gonna go get her.

Speaker 1:
[07:44] Well, because she wakes up, right? When I'm about to fall asleep. And now it's just like she is on this like pattern or schedule rather. And now it's just like, I'm kind of like not falling asleep because I'm waiting for her to wake up. And I did admit to Natalie that like river sleeping with us is it's as much for us as certainly for me. Like I'm going to miss once the twins show up, I'm going to miss our snuggles.

Speaker 3:
[08:09] We are getting her a twin size bed so that way we can just sleep with her instead of her sleeping with us.

Speaker 1:
[08:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:16] You're going to put the bed in your bedroom is what you're saying?

Speaker 3:
[08:18] No.

Speaker 1:
[08:19] So what am I doing wrong?

Speaker 3:
[08:19] Once she wakes up. I just think it's funny how we're like we need to sleep trainer and we got to get her to like sleep through the night and stay in her room. And now you don't even wait for her to wake up. You're just like, I'm just going to go.

Speaker 1:
[08:31] I love getting her out of bed and bringing her into bed. No, I know.

Speaker 3:
[08:35] I do too.

Speaker 1:
[08:35] And then she comes and snuggles with Natalie. And then she'll snuggle with me.

Speaker 3:
[08:39] And then she woke me up this morning by kissing me on my lips and going, oh, and then she's like, wake up mama. Wake up. And then I was like, mama's going to keep sleeping. And she said, dad, get up. And then she's ready to go. And it's like the sweetest thing ever. And then we would sleep apart. So we would have like two twin, one king, one full.

Speaker 5:
[09:30] And he would just like push them all together.

Speaker 3:
[09:32] And then it was like this massive bed. Honestly, that's fun.

Speaker 5:
[09:34] That's really cute.

Speaker 1:
[09:35] Well, like I said, guys, we have an amazing episode coming up for you. So much to get into. Again, we have Mark L. Walberg, host of Temptation Island, to help preview the upcoming reunion that you can see only exclusively on The Viall Files. You can watch it on YouTube at 8 p.m. Eastern Wednesday night and again on Friday, 8 p.m. Eastern. It's a two part special. You're gonna be locked in, entertained. You will not want to miss it. Also, so much to get into on the pop culture front. West and Amanda continue to go out in the streets of New York. They are being seen. They are locked in. They are fully, seemingly in a relationship. Ciara has finally made a statement. Lots to unpack there. I thought all weekend about, like, I'm about to be a father of three girls. And I just started thinking about, like, as they get older and start dating, the situations they're going to find themselves in and what advice I'm going to want to give them if they, when they find themselves, like, hurt or giving too much energy to people who, like, keep showing them over and over that they don't deserve that energy. But anyways, it does a lot to get into. We have the wonderful Courtney Revolution to help us talk about all these topics. We got Taylor, Frankie, Paul. She's not being charged. Dakota has made a statement. Jesse Draper is out there with Marciano. So much to get into. And that is all up next with Courtney Revolution. But before we get to Courtney Revolution, do not forget The Viall Files Plus is ad free. And you can get some amazing content on Viall Files Plus, including your Reality Recap deep dives, where we get granular on all your favorite reality TV stories and all the drama that's unfolding in all your favorite shows. Plus your pop extra roundup, where we get to talk about your pop culture topics. We don't have time for on Reality Recap and your update specials, where we give you your favorite updates and all your favorite Ask Nick callers. So much that and more. Plus it's all ad free. You just go to viallfiles.com to sign up and you'll be glad that you did. Courtney Revolution, welcome to the show. How are you doing, buddy?

Speaker 4:
[11:33] I am feeling dandy and fantastic. How about yourself?

Speaker 1:
[11:36] Wonderful. That's one chipper attitude. Do you start every morning with that kind of energy?

Speaker 4:
[11:41] I am a morning person and I love to be out. I'm at like the gym at this time. So like I'm used to being up and just, you know, in it.

Speaker 1:
[11:48] Okay. Well, we're excited to have you. Obviously, you're a big fan of all the things that we love talking about. We thought you'd be the perfect guest to help us unpack all the things going on in the reality TV and pop culture world. Did you do any, before we get started, did you do any fun this weekend? Like what is Courtney Revolution doing on the weekend? Is he prepped for a busy Monday morning of talking pop culture and getting those arms jacked?

Speaker 4:
[12:12] Lay on the couch and watch TV. This particular weekend, I laid around and I watched a lot of good TV.

Speaker 3:
[12:17] You didn't have any Coachella Weekend 2, Justin Bieber, Madonna, Billie Eilish, FOMO?

Speaker 4:
[12:22] No, no. Listen, I love Coachella. It's a lot of fun. I've been one time. And so because I've been that one time, I haven't been in a rush to be back.

Speaker 3:
[12:33] Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot.

Speaker 1:
[12:35] It's a lot.

Speaker 4:
[12:36] It's a trek.

Speaker 1:
[12:36] We got a lot to get into. Starting with going into the weekend, we found out that Taylor, Frankie, Paul will not be facing any additional charges as it relates to the most recent situations that she found herself in. Dakota has also recently released a statement. I mean, I think we're all happy that Taylor's not going to be charged and hopefully there's a path forward. I don't know what this means for her future on TV or the future of The Bachelorette, but it seems like maybe hopefully things are heading in the right direction for Taylor, Frankie, Paul. And then we also have a statement from Dakota.

Speaker 3:
[13:13] You know, it's all just a bunch of, it's a bunch of latitudes and it looks like maybe it was written by someone that was not him. But it's overall, he's focusing on his son and he's he is happy to be out of such toxic situations. And he has given his son the best future and priority that he needs.

Speaker 1:
[13:33] The thing that I found, I don't know, it was more like now he's releasing a statement saying he's basically, it sounds like he's retiring from TV. It sounded like he is leaving the spotlight, as he claims in his statement. Is that, how does he word it?

Speaker 3:
[13:48] I've chosen to step away from the spotlight, to focus on my family, my growth and our healing. And that's where my energy will remain.

Speaker 1:
[13:54] I don't know if this is a permanent step away from the spotlight or this is like taking a break from Instagram kind of break.

Speaker 5:
[14:01] It's hard to tell these days.

Speaker 1:
[14:02] But coming off like announcing this right after his appearance on a reality TV show, it seems to be like, oh, you had to slip that in, and then now we're taking a step back.

Speaker 3:
[14:15] He's like, sorry, I just got one more opportunity.

Speaker 1:
[14:17] One more thing I had to promote and get out there. But now I am ready to be done.

Speaker 3:
[14:23] Yeah, close the curtain.

Speaker 4:
[14:25] Close the curtain. I think that they should both be done, actually, honestly, him and Taylor.

Speaker 1:
[14:30] I mean, I think a lot of people would probably support that. I mean, I hope that if Taylor has an opportunity and chooses to be in the spotlight, I hope it is in an environment that serves her well and doesn't put her in perpetual toxic situations. Because, I mean, this is her job, this is her career.

Speaker 3:
[14:52] But it hasn't always been. And I think she doesn't need TV to be successful. She has shown us that she can be successful on social media with her following, sharing what she has control of sharing. And I think that is the healthiest place for her right now.

Speaker 1:
[15:08] But we agree that a life online is still part of a life in the spotlight. You don't have to just be on TV. And when Dakota says, I'm taking a step down from the spotlight, I'm expecting not to see any more like dad talk videos with him and Jordan. Yeah, that's his statement. But I'm just saying if we're talking, no, I understand. But if we're saying, what does a step down look like for either of them? I'm just saying like if she chooses to still like be on social and be an influencer and engage with her followers, that is part of the spotlight, so I guess.

Speaker 3:
[15:40] Yeah, I agree that they both don't need to be on television. I agree that I never did need to see what Dakota was doing on social media before, and I definitely don't need to see it now. Taylor, I think, who is very vulnerable, very vocal, wants to share her life to help others who may be in similar situations, I think is important for social media. I think it's important for her healing, and I don't think her being on a television show where she is not in control and other people are exploiting her to make a good show is healthy for her.

Speaker 4:
[16:15] That's exactly how I feel.

Speaker 3:
[16:17] Period, Courtney.

Speaker 4:
[16:18] That's exactly how I feel. She could be on social media, she could give us a self-produced series, something, because she wants to help people while sharing her life. She doesn't need to be in a situation where other people are pulling the strings for her, because it's very easy to make her look wild.

Speaker 1:
[16:32] Yeah, I hope that she can control her narrative and that she is in control of her opportunities and choices to whatever degree is possible.

Speaker 3:
[16:40] Are you also following the Alex vs. Alex?

Speaker 4:
[16:44] Y'all, I'm trying to follow it. First of all, they have the same name. Second of all, all of this is over podcast deals?

Speaker 1:
[16:51] Allegedly.

Speaker 5:
[16:51] I don't know, I gotta be honest. These are two girls that I did not know who they were before I started working here.

Speaker 4:
[17:00] Like, can I be honest? This very much felt like I'm cracking the door on white people's business.

Speaker 3:
[17:06] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[17:08] Who are these women? And I did read up on them.

Speaker 5:
[17:10] They look the same.

Speaker 4:
[17:11] They look the same, the same name, and all of this is over microphones?

Speaker 5:
[17:16] I don't know. They're expensive mics.

Speaker 4:
[17:18] She was mean to me over the microphone.

Speaker 3:
[17:19] Did y'all see that Dakota Johnson lie detector where they show her a picture of Alex Earle, and she's like, I don't know who this is. Is this the Call Her Daddy girl? And then they show her a picture of Alex Cooper. She's like, is this not the same person? And they're like, no, that's Alex Cooper. And she's like, oh no, they both have the same name. It's both Alex. They're both doing podcasts. Are they enemies? Do they have beef? They probably have beef over podcasts. And it's like, you predicted all of this.

Speaker 1:
[17:43] She really nailed it.

Speaker 5:
[17:44] Dakota Johnson is always at the scene of the crime. Actually, that's not the truth, Ellen. I love that girl down.

Speaker 1:
[17:51] The only thing, now that we're talking about this over the weekend, I think just the thing that's most confusing is, well, one, it does seem to be losing its team, because a few days ago, Alex Earle was kind of like, oh, Beth, all right, I'm on it, suggesting that maybe she was finally going to speak out, and then we haven't heard from her, and then she posts this pole dancing video, which is like, okay, you're not going to give us what we want, which is fine. We never really asked for it. This all started with Alex Earle kind of like, call it sub-tweeting or liking, or just cryptic messages that suggested there was some kind of beef. And then I think what's surprising to us mostly is it's like, why did Alex Cooper bother? She is building this massive empire. She wants to be the next Oprah. She seems to be doing a lot of things that are putting her in that position. Sorry, not to disrespect Oprah, but that's the word on the street that's like, she wants to be thought of above the fray. Call Her Daddy started as two women talking about their sexual endeavors. And I know from talking to Alex that she made a lot of effort into changing how her show was. It was something that was not easy to do. Many people don't start a show being one thing and successfully transition into something else. And it's just like, why bother inserting yourself in the type of drama that you work so hard to remove yourself from? It's just like, you should be above. I just don't see the upside for Alex Cooper. It just seems like all she's doing is giving Alex Earle more presales on the eventual memoir that she'll write about it. And it will ultimately be nothing, but it will still sell a lot of books. I just don't see why she is... I just don't see the upside for Alex Cooper other than just, was she bored? Did she need a little drama in her life?

Speaker 4:
[19:40] And the Alex Earle young lady, she never posted a full response as to, this is why I've been reposting these shady things about this young lady that I used to work with. She never had said her name on the playground. She's just been like, she's being scary.

Speaker 3:
[19:54] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[19:54] Oh, so she's automatically L, so I'm on Cooper, Earle. That's a flop.

Speaker 3:
[19:59] But I don't understand why Alex Cooper is coming for, like now it's like anyone who says anything about her, she's like, OK, well, I'm going to post our text, and I'm going to post something about you. And she came after Breonna La Paglia.

Speaker 4:
[20:14] Every time I hear the chicken fry name, that just tickles me. With chicken fry, Burger King.

Speaker 5:
[20:21] To professionally brand yourself as chicken fry is really cool.

Speaker 1:
[20:24] That's so strange to me. Well, then also, it's just like most of these women who we're talking about, it seems like the main theme of their platforms or what they do is like women supporting women, and yet they're engaging in something that shows the exact opposite, that it's just more like women going after women and fighting over what seems to be ultimately petty things, right? I saw a tweet basically saying like, if we don't find out someone died at this point, I'm going to be disappointed.

Speaker 4:
[20:53] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[20:54] Because the way they are, it doesn't add up.

Speaker 5:
[20:59] My thing with this whole Alex vs. Alex thing is just, Alex Cooper, you have interviewed Jane Goodall and Michelle Obama, and yet, you feel the need to get in on Alex Earle draw. Like, it doesn't, I just don't get it.

Speaker 4:
[21:16] You said not you lowered yourself.

Speaker 5:
[21:18] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[21:18] No, not lowered. To roll around in the filth with Ms. Earle.

Speaker 5:
[21:22] Well, no, it's just like, pick a lane. Okay, and here's my honest take is like, why would I trust someone that still has beef with Alex Earle to interview Jane Goodall or Michelle Obama?

Speaker 4:
[21:34] Are you Barbara Walters or are you Wendy Williams?

Speaker 5:
[21:36] Exactly. Pick one.

Speaker 4:
[21:37] Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 5:
[21:38] That's how I feel. And I'm sticking to it.

Speaker 3:
[21:40] What's so interesting, I heard a friend of show, The Toast Girls talking about this and they're like, where is the daddy gang? I just keep seeing so many support for Alex Earle. Where is the daddy gang? And they made such a good point of like, she used to have this big community because she had this podcast where she shared about her life. People felt like they knew what she was doing. And then when she switched and changed what her podcast is, it was kind of like she closed the door on her personal life. And it was like, now I'm setting a boundary. Now nobody knows what in the world she does on a Tuesday night. Like no one knows anything about what she's doing.

Speaker 1:
[22:19] Including what bothers her, you know? Like what keeps her up at night and the things that she emotionally.

Speaker 3:
[22:23] Things she's struggling with, things she's going through. Like no one knows anything. So she's kind of lost that community that felt like they were her fans. And now it's kind of like they've moved on to Alex Earle, who is so open and so honest and is posting like her, you know, crying, being like, oh my god, I got drunk and texted my ex. I'm like so embarrassed. We all know who that ex is. So it is make, it is interesting how like she kind of lost her community by shutting that door.

Speaker 1:
[22:52] It's almost as like she missed that part of her life.

Speaker 3:
[22:54] With what?

Speaker 4:
[22:55] How is, how is Alex Earle so open, honest and vulnerable, but she won't tell us what the beef is?

Speaker 3:
[23:01] That is where it stops. So I don't, and I, and I am curious as-

Speaker 4:
[23:06] Cause to me, you just being messy just to be messy cause you got a community now and you just want to attack Ms. Cooper cause she got the girlies on her podcast. So just say that.

Speaker 3:
[23:13] No, no, it is confusing that she like was like, okay, on it. And like responded to the video being like on it, which means you're on it, which means you- You're setting up a camera.

Speaker 5:
[23:23] Say with your chest.

Speaker 4:
[23:24] Right, we need your Tati Westbrook. By sister moment, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[23:30] And then has only just like posted normal content since then, which is a little like, so you're not on it, is what it's-

Speaker 5:
[23:39] Also, it's like, I'm supposed to rely on Dave Portnoy to tell me what's going on in this situation. I don't want to do that.

Speaker 3:
[23:46] T by the C?

Speaker 1:
[23:48] Yeah. Hey, listen, at the end of the day, it's just two main characters being upset with the other person, not realizing that they're the main character in their respective stories, and they are upset about that.

Speaker 3:
[24:01] Well, hold on tight. Maybe we'll catch something in the near future.

Speaker 1:
[24:05] I don't think we're ever going to get it or be satisfied, because it's just more like, I wanted this, oh no, she wanted that, we disagreed, right? And it's going to be over something that 99.99% of the people following the story can't relate to.

Speaker 5:
[24:22] Yeah, it'll be like, she didn't sign a release, and it's like, no one gives a shit.

Speaker 4:
[24:25] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[24:26] It's a release.

Speaker 1:
[24:27] Microphone and NDA.

Speaker 5:
[24:28] Microphone. Literally, an NDA, whatever.

Speaker 1:
[24:31] All right, well, let's transition to the West and Amanda. Something I was thinking about all weekend, I was thinking about being a girl dad. I'm about to have three daughters, and what is it gonna be like when my daughters start dating and eventually experience heartbreak as the result of inevitable weak men? I saw an Instagram post that I reshared that really, I felt like as a girl dad, it really spoke to me in how I hope I have an opportunity to raise my daughters. And basically, the theme of the Instagram was this man, this lovely Irish accent talking about, he's gonna raise his daughters to have weak men fear his daughters. And I was like, I don't know exactly what that means, but it really hit home to how I hope my daughters move in relationships, but it will be very difficult to teach that going forward. But anyways, before I get into that, let's update our audience in case you missed it, in case you're not following. Everything that has transpired when it comes to the West Gate, West and Amanda and Ciara, a lot has happened since Reality Recap last Thursday, starting with, we finally heard from Ciara, and she gave some thoughts about this situation. So, Mary, can you shed the light on some of the comments that Ciara made?

Speaker 5:
[25:44] Yes, well, Ciara did a Glamour article. She said that she was closer to Amanda at the time, and she's more mad at Amanda, because she said that at the end of the day, a man's gonna be a man, and Amanda was someone that I was close to, and I expected more of. And she had said that her and West had a lot of conversations previously going into that season about their relationship and setting boundaries. One of the boundaries was no more sleeping with people on Bravo that they had set, and she talked about she's nervous for the reunion, she's been thinking about her outfit, she's not necessarily gonna do a revenge dress, but she's gonna look good. She got less than 24 hours of a heads up on the joint statement. She said, I've read it with the rest of the world. There's something about the lack of being able to say each other's names in the statement that I found very telling, but I don't know. She's not gonna be the next Bachelor. She said, fuck no, I'm way too private. She talked to, I thought this was really interesting, getting grief about her taste in men. She said, I don't like it, I do feel like I get a lot of grief for dating people, but here's the thing, I've only technically dated two people publicly. For people to make a really roundabout statement about my taste based on two people is annoying and frustrating. I'm trying to figure out dating. If I were a fucking expert, don't you think I would probably be married? But I'm not. Why do we put this pressure on young women? It's our fault for not seeing who this person was immediately. It's our fault for having bad taste in men, when men often present themselves as one way for the first three months, and then completely end up being someone totally different. Then she also touched on interracial dating and race and being a black woman on Bravo.

Speaker 3:
[27:19] She also was asked, who did she feel like she was betrayed by more, West or Amanda? Her response was, at the end of the day, a guy's a guy. Whether or not West and I are working on our relationship, you can't put anything past a man. Which, I'm going to be honest, I didn't love. I didn't love. I don't love that we are continuing to just be like, oh, boys will be boys. Like, no, let's hold men to expectations that we hold our female friends to. Like, they can be, they're big boys. They can be held to that high of expectations. We don't need to be like, oh, they're just like boys. So like, don't expect anything of them. They're going to suck and just like, it's fine. Like, no, you disagree, Mary?

Speaker 5:
[27:59] I, well, I think in this- I disagree.

Speaker 4:
[28:01] You disagree, Courtney?

Speaker 1:
[28:02] I think in this-

Speaker 4:
[28:03] I disagree. I disagree because we already know that West is, he's already proven in a pattern sense that he's bound to play in Ciara's face. So it's not as surprising. What is surprising is that you've been on the show with a young lady, slept in a bed with this young lady, had fun, parties dressed up like the elderly with this young lady. And this young lady has played in your face in secret. And then it had to come out because the fans are crazy. And then you put out this bullshit statement. And then you get like the text before. Like Amanda, it's really bad for Amanda. It's really bad. Like West, we know West is trash. But we weren't so sure about Amanda. And now we have the proof.

Speaker 3:
[28:40] No, I 100% think she should feel more betrayed by who she thought was her best friend. 100%. But I think the excuse of a guy is going to be a guy, a boy is a boy. Like at the end of the day, that's just like what they are. I think is just like a lame excuse. I think she can still be like, you know what, what West did to me was fucking hurtful. I feel more betrayed by Amanda because she was my best friend. But the way that West like laughed in my face all summer, he made me feel these types of things. Like we can hold him to the same expectation. He's like, we don't need to like less him because he's shown her time and time again who he is.

Speaker 1:
[29:15] Yeah, I just, I think I agree with Natalie. I mean, I just think in general, the boys will be boys is a, what it is honestly, like I think it's a lane for forgiveness in a way that like I don't think West deserves. And I also think like, you can be mad at both people. She should be mad at both people. They both really hurt her. But it's just the, the boys will be boys is it, it's basically saying that like, there are no good guys out there, which it's not true. I understand it's hard to find. But when you keep giving the bad ones more chances, it's even harder to find. But also to that end, it's just more like, if your romantic goal is to have a life partner and you date men, then you should definitely still hold your future romantic partner to a high standard, which I think Ciara does. I think Ciara has very high standards. In fact, when I was thinking about my daughters and when they start dating, I hope my daughters love the way Ciara seems to want to love. Because I have a ton of respect for that. Because what we know about Ciara is that she has very high standards of herself. She carries herself very well. And when she seems in a relationship, it's not only she has high standards of the people she dates, but she has high standards of herself. Which means that it seems like just from afar, the way Ciara wants to date is that whoever Ciara ends up with, I think is going to be a very lucky person. Because her standards don't just start with expecting whatever she wants from her partner. She brings what she wants to the relationship. I think she shows up in relationships being that person that she hopes that her partner is as well. What sucks about people like West and like just weak men in general, is that they will weaponize their weakness. Because what they'll do is they'll take that for granted, right? You know, someone like Ciara will show up and give, right? And we all know what that's like to show up in being in a relationship and be like, all right, I'm going to walk the walk. I have a lot of expectations of my partner, but I need to be that person too. And so Ciara shows up being that great partner, or being that great friend, or being that great companion, even in a dating situation, because she is not waiting for the people she's dating to do their part for her to do hers. And then unfortunately, the people like West will take that for granted and weaponize that against these very strong people, because it's like, it's that part of Ciara, the empathetic part, you know, she's an, I mean, she's a nurse and it's one of some of the most empathetic people out there. And so you want, like, that's a difficult part about dating, right? Like, where do you draw that line between giving your people you care about grace or understanding that maybe that person no longer deserves that grace? Sometimes when you are hurt by someone you love, you can see it that they realized their regret and how much they hurt you. And they will never want to do that again, as opposed to like someone like West, who to me, like West is the definition of a weak man. And when I think about like weak man, I think about like the opposite of like, we talk so much about like toxic masculinity, and I feel like what's the opposite of that. And to me, like positive masculinity and like a strong guy is like someone who finds joy in love and happiness by considering the feelings of the people they're closest to, their loved ones. They're not constantly centering their own needs and happiness. Like someone like West, on too often of a regular basis, will prioritize his short term gratification for the long term pain of the people he claims to care about, right? These are the type of men who will say they don't want to be the victim, but constantly play the victim. They're the people pleasers, and they will also get other people to advocate for them. Like that's why you keep hearing like rumors like West is kind of you hear what West is thinking through like rumors and hearsay, because like that's how guys like him move, where they'll kind of be like, well, she's just like this. And they'll have other people like speak up for them, but they'll never like want to speak up, because they're always playing with the sheepish, like, I don't know what I'm doing type of guy. Like West at their first reunion with Ciara, where he's just like, you know, I'm just like, I don't know, I don't know. Like, it's all like a game, right? When you think back about like this past season, that whole like situation where, you know, where West is like, I don't even know how to talk to Ciara. And Ciara was like, I designed it that way. I think that's a game we often play in relationships, right? Like, when we don't feel like we have the power, like we want to think that we do, we play this game. And in that situation, I don't think West is under any illusions that he doesn't have the control and the power in this relationship. But I think he weaponizes his weakness against Ciara by playing the whole like, I don't know better. I'm just a dumb guy. And I think that's the part that Natalie's speaking to, where it's just like, if all we do is just keep giving guys like West unlimited chances, that like, it will constantly be disappointed.

Speaker 5:
[34:16] I don't know. I think the thing of like, the guys will be guys at a certain point is, I understand what you're saying. And I think like the West situation is so specific of he, I completely agree with you, Courtney, of like, he has hurt her before. And so obviously she has these lowered expectations of him already. And I do completely agree with you, Nick, on the sense of like, a lot of men will be weak. But honestly, like, I don't think that that's men specifically. I think there are a lot of people in general that like will just use, like, I think I've been guilty of this, to be completely honest, of just like using an excuse of wanting to make other people feel comfortable so you can just make yourself feel comfortable at the end of the day. And being, like, actual empathy and bravery is saying your true feelings, right? And so that's something that, like, West would never give Ciara. And that, like, at the core is just, like, you know, that's what's fucked up about the situation, is if he would have just been honest with her at any point in time, none of this probably would have happened, but he didn't do that. He just let her create whatever sort of narrative she wanted to create in her head, and he leaned into that, which is fucked up.

Speaker 1:
[35:30] But I do think we can hold him accountable by saying, you're an adult man, you should know better. And just because you're a guy doesn't, like, let you off the hook in terms of, like, maybe you shouldn't know better.

Speaker 3:
[35:43] Because she did refer to him as, at the end of the day, we were genuine friends, which I think was what made it so hurtful when everything kind of went south and why I needed to take the time after. Like, it's not like they were these, like, kind of distant exes who still were kind of... Like, they were building their friendship. They were genuine friends. So I think it's okay for her to be like, listen, maybe I'm betrayed more by Amanda because we were closer and we've been friends for longer, but I'm also betrayed by West because, like, what the fuck? And I think that's okay for her to say.

Speaker 5:
[36:15] A question for The Room, though, it's like, maybe she does feel that, but is there a world where it's like she just doesn't really wanna... As far as this Glamour article goes, because she was so intentional about it, she doesn't wanna center West in this. Like, at this point, she's fucking done with that guy.

Speaker 3:
[36:32] You know?

Speaker 1:
[36:33] I mean, she is. Like, if you don't wanna talk about West... Yeah, the whole thing is about West. Which is fine. I mean, this article doesn't define Ciara's feelings. It's just one article.

Speaker 5:
[36:43] I think, yeah, this article is about West, but I think this article is so much more about, like, her and this situation that she's been in. I mean, she talks about, like, this season. It just sucks because it's like, this season, as far as, like, Ciara's personal storyline, like, she got to buy her grandparents' house.

Speaker 4:
[36:58] That was so sick. I love that.

Speaker 5:
[37:00] Like, and she got to do all of these amazing things, and her career is, like, going incredibly. And Ciara's so smart, and I think she was very intentional of this article of kind of dismissing West in a way that she can center the narrative back on herself.

Speaker 4:
[37:15] Especially after West did the whole thing with the article back in the day. I thought it was very strategic and clever, and I applaud her for that.

Speaker 5:
[37:22] That's kind of how I read the whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[37:25] Listen, not wrong, but some days, all three of my daughters will find themselves in a situation like this. And it might not be identical to the situation. I just mean someday, whoever they date, men, women, it won't matter. But there will be people, and it'll probably happen multiple times. I think it happens to all of us, right? Where we find ourselves giving too much of our energy to people who don't deserve it, right? But we can't explain it. We're triggered by them, ultimately. It's like a trigger response. Early in life, we often confuse that with love, and intensity, and passion, and things like that. I think my hope, when that happens to my daughters, that they will be able to think about the energy that they are giving people in their lives. Because it's just eventually it's going to happen where you're convinced that you're right because you're convinced your feelings wouldn't lie to you. And I think part of like dating and getting better at that is kind of being in control with your feelings so that you can hold people who are reckless with your feelings more accountable. The human side of the heartbreak or feeling like you're just like locked into a dating situation, I think is relatable to everyone in a sense. And I think, you know, for example, like the part of the article where Ciara talks about her and West, she tried setting some boundaries with West going into the season. I imagine and I hope in the not too distant future for Ciara, she will look back on that. And I think she will like almost that kind of awkward, like laugh and when we laugh about ourselves, when we look back about the decisions we made, I imagine she will like feel like that was something that was a waste of her energy and time. Like when you're trying to set boundaries with someone you're not in a relationship with, and you're trying to set like romantic boundaries or hookup boundaries, like I get why Ciara is doing that, especially in the reality TV world of like knowing how Bravo works and how everyone's going to be talking about all these things. I completely get where she's coming from. It's just more like I hope in the not too distance future, she realizes that her energy will be best served with people who bring more positive energy into her life. I don't know about you guys, but I have been in dating situations where you look back and you thought, why did I keep going back? Why did I keep allowing this person to do this? Usually the answer is because you love him, you care about him, you want to believe that you want to see the best in them. That's where men like West weaponized their weakness against people like Ciara. It's not because Ciara is not strong or doesn't know better. It's because he is manipulating and taking advantage of that empathetic part of her that wants to be a good partner and wants to have compassion for when people make mistakes. The ability to identify that and know the difference between someone who made a mistake and really regrets it and wants to never do that to that person they claim to care about again versus acting like they don't know better. I hope that as my daughters start dating, they will be able to find that line earlier in life. My hope for Ciara that she sees this as one of the best moments of her life. Despite the pain it's caused and despite the frustration it's caused her, I hope that allows her to see West for who he is and start focusing on people who bring happiness and good energy to her life. Because we only have so much time and energy. And if we're focused all our energy on the people who make us sad and upset, it will consume us. I've been, I mean, I don't know about you guys, I've been that person where we just get stuck by somebody. And the only way we, those people leave is if we like push them away. Because in West's mind, he's always been upfront with Ciara. Well, I told her like we weren't dating, you know, he plays that whole like, that whole act of like, I don't even know how to talk to Ciara. Is him pretending that she has control on a situation where he's in total control of his feelings. When he was just like, I don't want Ciara to get hurt, that's him acknowledging that he's not worried about his feelings getting hurt. And he knows that hers will. And yet he plays this whole like, I don't know how to talk to her. It's a con, right? It's like a, it's a conscious or subconscious con that like West does that allows him to not take full accountability for like knowing that in that moment where like when they were filming that party, he chose to bring a girl there and he chose to make out with her in front of a woman he knows is like, still has mixed feelings about how she feels about him. Like the recklessness that he shared there, like that's all on West. But like, I do think you can hold them accountable. And I think if you give them that path, it leaves that door open for like giving them a second chance they don't deserve.

Speaker 3:
[42:06] What I thought was absolutely batshit crazy is that the same day her article came out, they went to the Yankees game and were kissing on the kiss cam. Like, I don't think it was an actual kiss cam, but the fact that whoever was working at the Yankees had a camera locked in on them and caught them kissing, crazy. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[42:26] They need a raise.

Speaker 3:
[42:27] They need a raise. But like, what are you guys doing?

Speaker 4:
[42:31] I thought it was embarrassing. It looked like West didn't like Amanda, Amanda like grabbing for his hand, Amanda pulling him to sit back down as he cheers at the game. It's like, girl, did you not realize you got Kyle 2.0? If you wanted to introvert, you should have found somebody off the show.

Speaker 3:
[42:44] Exactly.

Speaker 4:
[42:45] To Frozen Peas for Brains, what's going on there? Frozen Peas for Brains. It just comes across like, like Mia said on Watch What Happens Live, what did y'all think was going to happen? When was going to be a good time to come forward with this? Like you were always going to look like two hefties thrown out on the street for doing this. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like what was going on in their minds? Like at what point did y'all decide like, you know what, Ciara, girl, we don't even like your ass no more. Let's just be together. Like, you know what I mean? What was that moment like? Like, I need that asked at the reunion.

Speaker 5:
[43:12] Well, I mean, it's kind of, to go to Ciara's point, it's like, she said, it's like, why is it that I'm so much more disposable than another person? And it's just like.

Speaker 1:
[43:22] But she's not though.

Speaker 5:
[43:23] She's not, but I mean.

Speaker 4:
[43:25] Their actions say otherwise.

Speaker 5:
[43:26] Yeah, I mean, they're treating her.

Speaker 1:
[43:27] But those are their actions. That has nothing to do with Ciara's self-worth. I understand that's how she feels in this moment, right? But they don't define who Ciara is.

Speaker 5:
[43:37] No, not at all. But it's more, this is what I mean is like for West and Amanda to just be willfully ignorant, I guess, is kind of the mode that they're in on their public appearances, as if like everyone is not talking about this, right? Amanda had that thing of like, yeah, I'm gonna keep posting and living my life. And then immediately it's like.

Speaker 4:
[44:00] I'm in a scarf and a bar.

Speaker 6:
[44:01] She's hiding, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[44:02] She's hiding.

Speaker 5:
[44:03] You know what I mean? I mean, it's just like, what are you doing? Why are you pretending? Like, what is your intention?

Speaker 4:
[44:11] What is your end getting? I would prefer if Amanda popped out and was like, yeah, that's my man. And I want her to see, I want to see them tonguing each other down with paparazzi shots that they planned. I wish that they would almost lean into it and just be the villains, because at this point, y'all trying to fake like y'all are villains and just fell into this when clearly this was something that's planned. They're still cutting the show and we're seeing all of these intimate moments between like Amanda and West. As the episodes go on, like it's bullshit. Just lean into it and like get a brand deal out of it. And let's move on.

Speaker 5:
[44:41] Be honest.

Speaker 4:
[44:42] Be honest. Y'all intentionally threw the friendship away with Ciara and y'all keep on doing it. Like, like.

Speaker 5:
[44:47] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[44:48] You're also with the guy who loves to wear scarves. And like he has not once tried to hide or he is like, you know what, I'm posting, I'm with my friends. Like what poster, poster on your story. She's with you. You just posted all six of your guy friends who are also at the Yankees game. Post Amanda, include her, tag her.

Speaker 1:
[45:08] You know what I really want to know? The boundary that Ciara said she talked about with West about not hooking up with Bravo people. I want to know what West's response was. I imagine his response was to agree with that boundary of Ciara, which I think to my point speaks to like the manipulation of West, right? Because I imagine if I had to guess what West's narrative is to himself and to Amanda is like, we haven't even been dating for three years. I don't even know what our relationship is. We're clearly not dating. I don't know or anything, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3:
[45:39] Well, for all we know, that could have been his boundary that he said. He could have been like Ciara, maybe. I don't think we should date. Maybe.

Speaker 1:
[45:45] But I want to know what that is, right? Because clearly he didn't respect that boundary. But even if it was Ciara who asked, I imagine he said yes. And he probably like... Because again, I think West is the type of guy who talks out of both sides of his mouth. He's the people pleaser. Whatever you need to hear from him to make you feel good in that moment, he's gonna say it, right? He's not gonna share the tough truth, even if that means disappointing their friend or your partner in the short run, just so that you have honesty in your relationship, whatever that relationship is, right? And I think if he said yes, and I imagine Ciara thought they had a boundary that he was gonna respect, and he just didn't do it. And I think if that's true, that really speaks to the cowardice part of West, where it's just, again, that just defines that people pleaser in him, and he does it because he's only worried about the moment, right?

Speaker 3:
[46:38] I don't think he was ever planning on dating Amanda. This was never in his cards. He wanted to hook up with her. He wanted to have fun. And then when shit got serious, and he was like, oh my God, there's a video. This could be released. He was like, oh fuck, now we have to actually try to date. He had a whole other girlfriend. This man was in other relationships with people who were not on Bravo. He had zero plans on being with Amanda.

Speaker 1:
[47:00] Amanda has shown over the past 10 years that she is willing to put up with the bare minimum. She is willing to be easygoing past the point of reasonableness. And for someone like West, who wants to get on the plane and go wherever he wants and not be asked questions, in a lot of ways, it makes a lot of sense that he is attracted to someone like Amanda, who seems to be willing to do things that most people shouldn't be willing to do. And it seems something that Ciara would never be willing to do, right? And I think just, again, knowing that what we've heard from Ciara, how she wants to move in relationships, like again, I hope my daughters have the guts to move like Ciara, where they expect a lot of themselves, they show up in relationships, they do their part. And then the difficult part is to find out when that person you're giving all this attention and energy to doesn't, like figuring out whether like they deserve a second chance or are they really showing you who they are. And that honestly is like the very difficult part about love and dating. But the people like West, they'll never cop to it. It's not fair, right? Nothing about it is fair. That dating in relationships aren't fair. You do feel like when you're in Ciara's position, yeah, you're like, why am I always feeling like this? Because like you never want, you know, if you're Ciara, you don't want to change how you move. You don't want to like be a less of a good partner. You don't want to like show up, not as like.

Speaker 3:
[48:22] But it's also it's also not just like, did y'all see Kyle Cook's tweet or whatever from this most recent episode where he's like, what the fuck are we watching? Like, I think we forget that there's someone else also involved in this. But like the fact that he's also watching it being like, oh, my God, what the fuck are these two doing? Like, when Amanda went to sit on that daybed with him and he, when he's with the girl and she's like, cock blocking or whatever, and he is caressing the back of her hair, and then she says, watch my butt as I walk away. Crazy, two crazy things to happen back to back. And like, how did they think that was going to play out? I mean, I guess maybe if this wouldn't have happened, we would have never thought twice about it. I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[49:04] I feel like I still would have been like, well, they're still cutting the show, Andy just said recently. So are those parts that were initially edited out and maybe put back in?

Speaker 5:
[49:13] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[49:15] That's why I'm living for each week because I'm now looking. Now that I know, now that Andy's confirmed, like, oh, they're still cutting the show. I'm in it.

Speaker 3:
[49:22] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[49:22] Yeah. The editors deserve a raise.

Speaker 4:
[49:26] That good overtime.

Speaker 3:
[49:26] They're probably having so much more fun now, the editors. They're like, you know what? This just got really fun.

Speaker 5:
[49:33] West and Amanda watch.

Speaker 3:
[49:35] Yeah. Yeah. Like, what can we find?

Speaker 1:
[49:37] But yeah, I mean, I agree with Ciara. It's not fair. Like, the people criticizing Ciara's, like, preference in Met, like, we all have, we all have bad pickers. Like, you know, that's part of going out there and dating, and we have to be willing to look back and be just more precious with our energy, right? More precious with the people we invest in. Like, one of my best memories about dating is when I first got cheated on. It's like, and not because it was like, that was a painful experience, but I just think back about, like, kind of what I learned about myself and how I wanted to move forward and how I just got, I started, like, taking accountability for the choices I made in my relationship. And that never, that doesn't let anyone who hurt me off the hook, I still didn't want to fuck with those people, I still, but it was more about what could I do differently so that, like, dating for me, it's a little easier. And, and when, how do I draw that line? And where is that line between giving someone grace or realizing that this person has shown me time and time again that they're going to center their feelings over mine every chance they get?

Speaker 3:
[50:43] It will be interesting to see how she, she said in this interview, like, she concludes by saying, right now, it's great for her to be on reality TV. It's going to be interesting to see, like, who comes back next season. Obviously, Amanda's, I guess, going to focus on being on In the City. Like, is her and West going to be in the house together? Like, how, what's going to happen? But I am, like, grateful that this is not ending her reality TV stint because I think we all still want to see Ciara Miller on our screens.

Speaker 5:
[51:12] Yeah, I really personally am excited and hope to see Ciara just come into her own outside of relationships with men. Like, I really, or even just relationships in general. I think so much of Ciara's storylines have been dependent on relationships she has with other people around her. And I just, you know, she is such a compelling personality and someone that, like, I find so much inspiration in just, like, the way she holds herself and the way she lives her life, that I just want to see more of it. And I'm really excited.

Speaker 3:
[51:44] I wonder if Amanda and West are also like, fuck, what are they gonna play? What did we do? What did we say? Like, I bet they're also like, we'd have no idea.

Speaker 1:
[51:56] They're gonna just have to own it. Again, if less than a couple months ago, West agreed to this boundary about not hooking up with people for him to start hooking up with Amanda, it just is, to me, just speaks to just how much he did not give a.

Speaker 2:
[52:11] It's like she said in Bravo, he could have gone like, for real.

Speaker 5:
[52:16] He hates her.

Speaker 4:
[52:18] He hates her and Amanda jealous. Now, I said it. She ain't got an answer at the reunion. She's jealous of Ciara and West hate her, and they both took advantage of that. And we're watching it play out, period.

Speaker 1:
[52:27] I know you guys were talking about West's wardrobe and how he's got swag, but-

Speaker 3:
[52:31] Who was talking about West and how he has swag?

Speaker 4:
[52:33] He looked like a slot bucket. What you talking about?

Speaker 3:
[52:35] No, some people were saying he's got a fit. I said he likes to wear scarves.

Speaker 5:
[52:41] He tries to dress like a masked lesbian, and it doesn't work. Not a masked lesbian.

Speaker 1:
[52:46] He dresses like a literal peacock.

Speaker 3:
[52:50] Think about it.

Speaker 1:
[52:52] The scarf he purrs over his head.

Speaker 4:
[52:56] He dresses like a Zoomies ad out of 2009.

Speaker 3:
[52:59] Zoomies ad.

Speaker 5:
[53:00] He dresses like he got lost in a Spencer's gift.

Speaker 3:
[53:02] Very bad.

Speaker 1:
[53:04] It's literal peacocking. It's out there, bright colors, going out in the wild, something that's an intention getter, conversation starter.

Speaker 5:
[53:12] I know he wore Nike Elite socks in middle school. You know what I mean? I know he wore neon basketball shorts and an under armor shirt in Nike Elite socks, and I know he was not a pleasure to have in class for all of the girls. He smelled so bad.

Speaker 4:
[53:29] Not the scent.

Speaker 5:
[53:32] He needed a 72-hour deodorant.

Speaker 1:
[53:34] Before we let you go, Courtney, I mean, quick rapid fire. What are you loving on Bravo right now? Are you watching Rhode Island? Are you into-

Speaker 4:
[53:43] I love Rhode Island.

Speaker 1:
[53:45] Give us a little like what you love about Rhode Island.

Speaker 4:
[53:47] I love the fact that there seems to just be so much lore. Like we're only a few episodes in and it's like, oh, this guy was like with my Spanish teacher and knows my sister and my sister's friends with the mom. I love that because it makes me feel like we've got years worth of stuff to dig into. And I really appreciate the fact that the women are so open. And Dolores, always live for Dolores. It is nice. And I love Atlanta as well. Atlanta is giving me everything that I need. That's far. Shout out to Cynthia Bailey. Interested to seeing more of Kaye Michelle and Pinky. We know that Pinky is going to do the business struggles. Are you going to come out of the other side? Okay. Kelly, what happened to the business? Because the waffle business closed down present day. So we're going to see that hopefully. Why did that happen? I don't know. A lot of the Bravo shows are kind of doing it for me right now, but specifically Rhode Island and Atlanta. Beverly Hills, shout out to them.

Speaker 1:
[54:40] You watching The Valley at all?

Speaker 4:
[54:41] Yeah, I love The Valley. I like The Valley because obviously I live not far from here, so it feels like the neighborhood show to me. I am curious about Brittany's boyfriend on the show. He got real activated, real quick for someone that seemingly just signed a contract to be there in the background. That's a red flag for me if I'm Brittany, and I don't want him done with her sporkle. But I'm enjoying The Valley so far. Do we really hate Janet?

Speaker 1:
[55:12] I don't hate anyone.

Speaker 4:
[55:13] Be honest. Be honest.

Speaker 1:
[55:15] I don't think she's someone that I particularly think I would befriend if I had the opportunity.

Speaker 4:
[55:22] Is she that bad?

Speaker 5:
[55:23] She's not that bad. It's kind of just like, I think it's just vibes. You know what I mean? It's just like compelling reality. She's not that compelling as a reality TV personality. And then she also pisses people off, but I don't mind her as a person.

Speaker 1:
[55:37] I think she will be a very loyal friend to her friends, but it always comes at a price, and it's always really intense. And I think it eventually gets exhausting with a friend like Janet.

Speaker 4:
[55:46] Yeah, that's fair. I think they're managing well without Jacks, which I think is like the biggest thing for them. It feels lighter.

Speaker 5:
[55:53] It's watchable.

Speaker 4:
[55:54] It's a show about moms. Moms and Zach. I'm here for it.

Speaker 5:
[55:58] Moms and Zach.

Speaker 4:
[55:59] Moms and Zach, I'm not mad at it. And I want to say this. I don't mind Lacey and Michelle. What's tea? Is Lacey crazy or are you exaggerating?

Speaker 1:
[56:11] Well, listen, when it comes to watching your ex-partner who you share a kid with date someone fresh out of a divorce, I think it's hard not to lose your shit. So I have a ton of empathy for that situation.

Speaker 3:
[56:24] Also, when they're coming on a reality TV show, it's like, what are you doing, bitch? Like, what are your, you know, like, you were quick to sign on, so was Britney's. But, you know, it's just like, what are the underground, what are the intentions going on here?

Speaker 5:
[56:40] Yeah, I do think it was interesting what Zach had said to Britney about just, like, repeating patterns and, like, the red flag. And I was like, about this new guy and the fact that he immediately came on the show. I was just like, Jack's Taylor 2.0. But you didn't hear me say that.

Speaker 4:
[56:55] Britney, we need you to listen to your village right now. I think that Zach was passionate but being a friend.

Speaker 5:
[57:02] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[57:03] We don't need any Jack's energy on The Valley.

Speaker 5:
[57:06] Nope.

Speaker 4:
[57:06] We're trying to get another season.

Speaker 5:
[57:07] Yeah. I don't want to, like, feel like a chill run up my spine every time I turn on The Valley on Peacock. You know what I mean? Yeah. Anyway.

Speaker 1:
[57:18] I thought about that. I think Bravo, when we were always talking about how, like, Bravo, like, always showcases, like, toxic men. I think it's weak men. I think they love weak men. I think they love men who love being the center of attention, who aren't really that interested in being, like.

Speaker 3:
[57:32] Because they don't have morals. They don't care.

Speaker 1:
[57:34] Easy to produce.

Speaker 3:
[57:35] It's not even about the morals. Yeah, they're easy to produce.

Speaker 5:
[57:37] It's like the drama going. They'll do what you tell them.

Speaker 3:
[57:39] They do what you tell them. They're like, oh, this is going to get you a lot more camera time and you might get a brand deal and a lot of girls are going to be in your DMs. So you should say this and you should do this. And they're like, oh my God. And I'm going to do more than that, actually.

Speaker 1:
[57:53] Yeah, but that's the thing. I think that's giving them too much credit or it's just like, I think they would do it, like that is their character. I get a lot of fulfillment and joy of showing up for the people I love, you know, of making sacrifices for the people I care about, to not always prioritize myself first for the people I say I care about the most. And you just never see that with men in Bravo. It's always, what about me? It's always like that energy. And I think that's, and yeah, it plays for great TV, but I think they're more weak than they are toxic. I mean, they're toxic too, but I think it's because they weaponize their weakness in the form of like, I shouldn't, I don't know better. I'm helpless. I can't, what am I supposed to do? What about me? And I just think, yeah. Courtney, I appreciate you coming on, man. Where can the people find you? Enjoy all the great things that you're doing outside of coming on our show?

Speaker 4:
[58:43] You can find me on Instagram at Courtney Revolution and on the TikTok at Court Revolution. That's where I'm at.

Speaker 1:
[58:48] All right, we'll give them a follow. Courtney, you'll have to definitely come back. Up next, we have the wonderful and talented and legendary Mark L. Walberg to talk about all things Temptation Island 2 and help us preview the upcoming reunion that drops tomorrow, exclusively on The Viall Files. Well, Mark, welcome to the show. Welcome back. It's good to be with you, man.

Speaker 6:
[59:11] I'm spilling all the things I didn't want to say before you even started. That's how you do it.

Speaker 1:
[59:15] Well, if you're okay with me saying this, I just, I hope you're comfortable, but you're-

Speaker 6:
[59:20] Come on, I can't say if I'm okay with it before you say it.

Speaker 1:
[59:23] You're an excellent host, man.

Speaker 6:
[59:24] Why would I-

Speaker 1:
[59:25] I don't know, some people might feel uncomfortable with that. I'm uncomfortable all the time, but I appreciate that. I have so much respect for you. When we were watching Temptation Island, I was talking to Natalie and just like, you know, it's one thing we cover these shows and we've been watching reality TV for years and I've seen a lot of host work and things like that. And now that Natalie and I are hosting our own show.

Speaker 6:
[59:45] You guys killed it. Congratulations.

Speaker 1:
[59:47] Natalie crushed it. I did fine.

Speaker 6:
[59:49] You did crush it.

Speaker 3:
[59:50] I definitely know Mark Walberg yet, but I'll get that.

Speaker 1:
[59:52] You really are exceptional. I don't know if people appreciate how good you are. You're like, your presence is felt.

Speaker 6:
[59:58] Thanks, brother.

Speaker 1:
[59:58] I appreciate that. I hope that as I get more experience hosting and hopefully Age of Attractions around for a long time, you're definitely someone that I really try to emulate.

Speaker 6:
[60:08] Thank you. I appreciate that. Let me say this to that though. When we compare host jobs from different shows, the shows demand a different skill set. Your show, Love is Blind, and those shows, they're not needing the host to get involved in the content. That's not part of the structure of the show. So I thought you guys served Age of Attraction perfectly. You were brilliant. You were good. But you were brilliant. I'm all just messing with you. But I always try to make that distinction that my show kind of somehow has evolved where I'm in the content. And so that was never my intention, but that's where the show showed up. So thanks for the compliment, but I think if I were hosting your show or any other show, I would be kind of doing what you're doing too.

Speaker 1:
[60:47] Nevertheless, the way, because to your point, when it comes to hosting, as you know, it's like you're not the star of the show. You're a servant to the show. You're there to carry it forward. You're just there to help the audience. But you are obviously a big part of Temptation Island and you're a big reason why it works. Because again, the premise of Temptation Island is titillating, you know, so you got couples showing up.

Speaker 6:
[61:09] Tittleating is the kindest description I've heard.

Speaker 1:
[61:12] Scandalous, whatever you want to call it, but like- Ludicrous, back shit crazy. But you bring so much groundedness to it that it becomes a relationship show that allows audience members and why we like the shows that we cover to like unpack it, you know, talk about these relationships. It's not just about like the threesomes or whatever it is.

Speaker 6:
[61:34] Here's the deal with that. It was a subconscious and then conscious choice on my part. When it first came out back in the day, you know, right after World War II, I was a young guy coming back from overseas.

Speaker 1:
[61:46] My sophomore year of college.

Speaker 6:
[61:49] We did the show and there was no plan, right? It was kind of, we were in it and everybody was scrambling and I kind of did my thing and I've been hosting a long time so I had some skills in that area, but the whole point I said was I'm gonna foster conversation but then edit me out of this. But what I found is, you know, from a hosting standpoint, you've got a choice here. You can look at the train wreck concept of Temptation Island and wring your hands and lean into, I hope they cheat, what can I do to make this happen? Or you can be a human. And the choice that I've kind of made, which was a subconscious choice but now an actual choice, is that regardless of what you guys think, regardless of why they even chose to come here, I'm gonna try to look at you and I always say to them, I'm more committed to this outcome for you and your relationship than you are and while this is a TV show, I'm the one taking it seriously. I'm buying what I'm selling, maybe more than even the concept asked for and so I feel like even in the craziest situations, judgment really doesn't have a place here. Humanity does and so that's kind of the way I approach it.

Speaker 3:
[62:55] How much do you know about the couples and their separate experiences? Are you finding out along with the girls at the bonfire what the guys are doing?

Speaker 6:
[63:05] For the most part. I mean, here's how it goes and you now that you've had a show, you probably understand we share an executive producer. So and I'm a little jealous about that. I don't really want to unpack that here. But so in the shows for the viewers, often though the producers put out a hot sheet, which is basically a recap of where the stories are at any given time. This happened last night, blah, blah, blah, but not very detailed. And I get that most times. Sometimes I'm not on the distribution list, I have to ask. But I'll read that to kind of be aware of where they are. But more than that, I don't ask, I don't know. If something crazy has happened, usually I'll hear about it. But I have made a point, I've told them this is how I roll. I don't want to see the clips beforehand. Even if I know what's in the clip, which happens rarely, but sometimes. Like I knew Breanne was doing what Breanne did season one. But I didn't see it. Quite frankly, I don't want to look at it now. But the reason I do this so that when the clip rolls, I can meet them where they are and see it with fresh eyes as they see it. And if you'll notice, normally my question is, what did you see? Because what I see and what the viewers see is not what you saw. For instance, Mikey spun out on her biting her lip. I didn't even notice that because it's not a trigger for me. So for me, I've been on TV enough and have hosted enough that I'm not thinking about TV at that point. So it affords me the luxury of being able to say, let's just roll and see what happens. And I got a near piece. If I lose my track, they'll put me back on track.

Speaker 1:
[64:41] Well, this season is a little different. Season two on Netflix. Obviously, you've been doing this for a very long time. I've really enjoyed this season. In contrast, this season, well, I love season one, but it was really cool to see this season being different where it was more the women challenging their relationships. And it seemed to be the women.

Speaker 6:
[64:59] The guys were in their feelings.

Speaker 1:
[65:00] The guys were in their feelings. It was the women feeling a little undervalued, underappreciated. It's always different when it's the other way around. Was that fun for you to have that change of pace? And then second question to that is, over the years of Temptation Island, has that been common back and forth? Or how unique is it to have a season like this where it was really the women challenging the men and the men being in their feelings and feeling like they had to prove to their women partners that they were up for it, where it was like the men like last season really like taking advantage of this perceived freedom?

Speaker 6:
[65:36] This was different. Overall and generally speaking, this one was different in that it was much more of an emotional ride than a, you know, sex romp ride, right? Kind of like that. But every season I've done, and I've done them from way back and then there was a big break in the USA, we did several, they're always different. And it may be like the guys wilding out of two out of the four, and then the girls are weak, but then strong two out of the four, three out of the four. This one was different in that the guys were really in their feelings. A couple of them were really working hard to grow, and a couple of them, it was a little squirrely for me to figure out what's going to land for them. Which is the challenge I like is that when you're doing a bonfire, it's like doing a one-on-one talk show eight times in one night. And so you're switching gears, and it's just, okay, now, all right, so that's not this, let's go here. And so that's a little bit of a challenge that I dig. And when you see the lights go on, like an epiphany, or feelings happen from the conversation, I like that part.

Speaker 3:
[66:41] When you said to Summit, I think it was, I don't know exactly what he said, but you were like, that's it. He was like, oh, I didn't think you were going to say that.

Speaker 6:
[66:49] What I liked about Summit is that, and I was saying this the other day, is like, I used to play a lot of basketball. I played in this league, the Celebrity League of Basketball, that I really had no right to be in, both as a player or celebrity. Neither one was at the level I should have been. But there were like three different kinds of players. There were people in there that could ball out. They knew it and they could do it. And there were people like me who knew that they weren't great, so they knew exactly what role to play on the basketball court, stayed in the lane, did their thing, right? But then 80% of them were people who were terrible at basketball but thought they were great. So in this application of that very terrible metaphor is that what I liked about Summit was there were parts of his emotional intelligence he hadn't grown yet, and he was aware of it and down. So rather than doing what men often do, and women do too, but men generally, defending a position, I never thought of that. So there was a hunger.

Speaker 1:
[67:45] He was open.

Speaker 6:
[67:45] Right, so when that happens, I'm like, let's go. Yeah. We can build a man here, right? And he really, I thought, did some great stuff. And I give Cole credit too, because Cole, at whatever level he was able to do, was doing the best he could, you know? And so, and Mikey too, and Jack. So you have to have a willingness to have that discussion and the awareness to have some ownership in what you don't know. Because if your stance, as we've seen on Love is Blind, I wanted to talk to the people on Love is Blind, if your stance is, here's what went down, these are the facts, that's what's up. If you don't get that, that's what's up. The thing that's missing is, it's not right or wrong, it's what you're saying being received with love. You may mean it with love, but I said that to Summit. You may be giving criticism and stuff from a place of being loving, but if it's not being received as love, then you need to check yourself, find different language, listen harder and speak into that.

Speaker 1:
[68:46] Was there a couple that intrigued, their story or their situation intrigued you maybe more than the others?

Speaker 6:
[68:54] This is a good question, Nick. I had more trouble getting a bite on Jack and Cheyenne. I feel like there were parts of the story that I wasn't privy to that came out later, and there were times where they would say stuff to me and I would respond to it, expect a response based on that, and it wouldn't add up, and that made me go, something's a little hinky, I can't figure that out. Love them both. Really think she's a very strong woman that's just incredible, and I think that this real beautiful vulnerability about Jack as well on his path of whatever he's learning. But that was a little tricky for me. The Mikey one and Sydney, I had an immediate affection for Mikey.

Speaker 5:
[69:37] I like Mikey.

Speaker 6:
[69:38] Yeah. You just want to cuddle him, right? Although, and the fans have said it, like all the tears and all that stuff, they're like, come on, bro. But what I was trying to say to him is, look, there are parts of who you are, Mikey, that I relate to. We have a skill set. It's a people-pleasing skill set. We know how to be on and keep everybody in the room happy. But how does that make you feel at the end of the day? So I think we have this exchange where he's like, it's all good. I'm like, no, it's not fucking all good, dude. Sometimes it's all fucking bad.

Speaker 1:
[70:11] He wears that it's all good mask a lot.

Speaker 6:
[70:13] Don't we all though? I mean, it's easier to just do that and then we don't have to talk about it.

Speaker 1:
[70:17] Yeah. It's interesting because to your point, people-pleasing, I think a lot of people-pleasers relate to this. It's often at the detriment to yourself or the people closest to you. You're romantic partners. Often people who are in relationships with romantic partners or people-pleasers will feel like they're always prioritizing the masses rather than like those individual connections.

Speaker 6:
[70:38] Well, even when you're people-pleasing your partner, here's the trick. Here's the elusive part in that is a people-pleaser, and sometimes in the narcissist world, I'm not a clinical expert, so it's just stuff I picked up along the way that may or may not be accurate. The point being is that when we manage other people by pleasing them rather than being honest with them, we don't realize that what we're actually doing is disrespecting their ability to handle the truth. So what we're doing is, with Cole, you're not cheating and doing crazy shit, you're just telling lies a little bit shady because it's easier and you're fearful of how she'll react. But basically what you're saying is, I don't think you are adult enough to handle the truth. When you give the respect to your partner and go, look, I'm going to just lay this out. More often than not, you realize that they can handle everything as a matter of fact they know your truth. So I think that that's the delusion that those of us who tend to people please or are to some degree narcissistic think that if we make everybody happy and we manage their stuff and they're all smiling, then that's winning the game and being kind and loving. And it comes from a kind and loving place, but it's not particularly respectful.

Speaker 3:
[71:51] Well, especially because we had Sydney say to Mikey, I make myself smaller so that you can be bigger. And it's like clearly he's got just like this big personality that takes over rooms, so much so that to the point where she's like, I feel like I can't shine at all.

Speaker 6:
[72:10] Well, and what's great about that is that I don't know if they've had that conversation before. Yeah. Because there's a way for that to exist and it's still be okay.

Speaker 3:
[72:19] Totally.

Speaker 6:
[72:19] And mostly it's by letting someone know. So that way it allows Sidney to let him shine or let any partner let their partner shine as long as the partner is aware that there also needs to be a time where you shut that down and let them shine, right? And that's why relationships are nearly impossible.

Speaker 1:
[72:40] Did your wife enjoy watching the show with you?

Speaker 6:
[72:43] Oh, she enjoys watching the show more than I enjoy watching the show. I don't like watching the show.

Speaker 1:
[72:49] No?

Speaker 6:
[72:49] Why not? One, because I'm on it and I can't stand to watch that. It's fair.

Speaker 5:
[72:54] Outside of that part, though.

Speaker 6:
[72:55] Yeah, I got a lot to talk about there. The therapy. But Robbie's great because, and I've said this a million times over, you probably heard me say it, but a lot of the stuff I say, the bonfire is a product of what she has, we have talked about or she has drilled into me and I have been resistant to hear, right? And I'm going to be honest with you, half the advice that I'm giving out comes out as advice, as advice I should be taking. And people often think that the things I'm saying are because I've learned this, and in fact the things I'm saying is because I'm grappling with this.

Speaker 3:
[73:30] You have a daughter, right?

Speaker 6:
[73:31] I have a daughter and a son.

Speaker 3:
[73:32] You have a daughter and a son. What have you instilled in your daughter through dating and relationships throughout her life that has like made her realize her worth?

Speaker 6:
[73:42] I don't know if I've instilled much, I think I have, you know what's interesting, you have a young child and children baking while we speak. That may have been insensitive, but I think you know what I mean. You start as a deity with your children. Everything you say is godlike, they buy it hook, line and sinker. Then you become a scholar or advisor, but then at some point you become the student, and that's where I am now. So I'm learning from my son and my daughter the practical applications of the lessons I try to teach them as young kids, what they have actualized, when they actually thought it was real. And then I'm getting back on, okay, wow. So what I'd hoped I had instilled with my daughter is one, a healthy relationship with her father, because I think a lot of times with women it's the abandonment issue and the searching for love that they then mirror and model in their relationship with men, and that's why they usually have like, you know, a sweet gay best friend, and then some horrible dude that they're banging because that sex is good but I need the intimacy over here, right? And so I feel like our intimate relationship growing up has made her a stronger woman, has made me a better dad and a better person. What I hope that she has taken and what I see her doing is no one needs a partner, you get to have a partner. So you're complete. And the answer is, if there's a guy that enhances your experience, come along. But I'm not empty until, right? And so I think she has a social media lifestyle brand that's doing really well called Lazy Ballerina Club at lazyballerinaclub.com. Buy the merch right now. But, because I'm a dad.

Speaker 3:
[75:25] Yeah, support.

Speaker 6:
[75:26] But the whole point of it is she was a professional ballerina and this translates to relationships. What she's saying is in her ethos basically is, we're not what we do. We have to have worth and not take it from an outside source. So, as a dancer, you're not just a dancer in the company. You're a human first who dances. And until you give yourself that space to be okay without the validation and in opposition to criticism, then you're just going to be looking for love in all the wrong places.

Speaker 1:
[76:00] Before we start recording, you mentioned that you don't know where the couples stand today. Like, you haven't had much of an update since they left the island? Okay.

Speaker 6:
[76:10] I've had zero update. And it may be because I didn't ask.

Speaker 1:
[76:13] We do have the reunion, which we felt very grateful to host, hopefully with your blessing.

Speaker 6:
[76:18] It's all good. You do a fine job, and I'm glad it works out. What's important is that the audience gets to see the stories, and I'm going to watch your podcast, because I'd like to know the answers.

Speaker 1:
[76:27] We were very honored to be able to do it and very fascinated to unpack these relationships. Do you have any guesses? Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[76:34] I have some guesses. Are you going to tell me if I'm right or wrong? Is this going to drop before that drops?

Speaker 3:
[76:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[76:40] It drops the next day.

Speaker 6:
[76:40] I don't know if I want to guess.

Speaker 3:
[76:42] I think you're probably right.

Speaker 6:
[76:44] I have a feeling that more are together than apart. Okay. I have a feeling that there have been some reconciliations or never really quite actually a breakup, would be my guess. Let me just qualify this by saying, and I don't fucking care, and I'll tell you why. I mean, I do care, but I don't care about that, and I say this to people who are going through what feels like trauma on the show in the middle of my key situation, stuff like that. I'm like, the show ends today, but life and relationship doesn't. Yeah. Some of you will find your way back, some of you won't, somebody will find something better, and the number of people who've been on the show, both singles and couples who've been on the show, and in the next relationship that they enter into after the show, that becomes a forever relationship is uncanny to me. When I say I don't care, what I mean is I'm not keeping score that what you said in the final bonfire, I need to hold you to, and now you got back together, and what was the hustle? I don't care about the hustle. I don't care about that part. I care that you're happy, right? I care that your relationship is better than it was. It's what I say on the show. I hope that you'll leave the island in a better place than when you came here. How that shows up and what the audience thinks about that, that's their opinion.

Speaker 1:
[77:54] Well, I'm excited for people to watch Reunion. There's definitely a lot there, part one tomorrow, part two on Friday for anyone listening. But it was, I will say this, it was evident that their experiences affected them in a positive way.

Speaker 6:
[78:08] I was waiting to hear you say, do I need to worry if I see them on the street?

Speaker 1:
[78:12] No, I think again, there's a lot to unpack.

Speaker 6:
[78:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[78:17] I don't want to give anything away, but in terms of-

Speaker 6:
[78:19] You want to give anything away.

Speaker 1:
[78:20] Oh, yeah. You're the host of the show. No, no, no. But again, it was evident that the experience, whether it was the couples who are no longer together or ones who have reconciled, that experience and that experience I had with you was clearly positive.

Speaker 6:
[78:38] I'm glad to hear that.

Speaker 1:
[78:39] Again, I think when you look at a show like Temptation Island, you're not gonna assume there's growth. You're not gonna assume there's a healthy output.

Speaker 6:
[78:49] You know what my stock line is when I'm playing golf. I usually play golf, I walk on as a single because I won't get a tee time because I never know when I'm gonna play. I'm usually playing with guys that have no idea who I am and about four or five holes in, they start asking. And I'm like, yeah, I work in TV. What do you do? I host a show. What show? And then I say, I host Temptation Island. I'm like, oh really, what's that about? And my stock line is it's a dating show that looks like porn and feels like Oprah.

Speaker 2:
[79:12] Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 5:
[79:13] That's absolutely true.

Speaker 6:
[79:15] But my point about that is I say to all of them, look, you come to the island, some of you are here for altruistic reasons. Some of you are also in addition to that, looking for clout and brand deals and stuff like that. Not mad at that, I'll support that. But what I say to them is I don't think you realize that this show and this experience as crazy as it is, gets very real. I can't explain that. It shouldn't. It's farcical in some senses. But it gets real really quickly. And I try to tell them, the sooner you lean into being real on it, both outcomes, your relationship gets stronger, you get clarity, and you get brand deals because people like authentic, right? They like real. So what I say I don't care, what I'm saying is the outcome, I'm not keeping score on it, right? And if they leave with some clear understanding of who they are, that informs their next relationship, then cool.

Speaker 5:
[80:15] When you're hosting and you have someone in the cast do something that you just like, you're so it kicked out by the right one. Not even wrong. I feel like people can do stuff that's wrong.

Speaker 1:
[80:29] Something you definitely wouldn't do if you were yourself.

Speaker 5:
[80:31] I guess just something that you really are like, I can't believe you did that. How do you just really, I guess, compartmentalize that and still look at that situation with empathy and do what you're so good at doing on the show?

Speaker 6:
[80:45] First of all, thank you for that question and the flowers on the end of that. Look, maybe it's natural for me and not natural for everybody, so I'm going to give myself a little credit, but it's also a conscious choice that there's no place for judgment of any kind in this. Quite frankly, in anything. I mean, judgment just does not serve anything except making the person who's judging feel bigger by standing on the neck of somebody else. So a good example is Grant and Breon from Season 1. I hear Breon talking about how he loves this girl and I see what he's doing. So judgment makes you go, let me tell you why this is wrong. But openness and acceptance of it makes you ask questions like, how are you able to compartmentalize this where you're not thinking about the person you say you're in love with while you're doing this physical act? That's not an indictment. That's something we can look at that there's part of what you've been programmed to, that you, for whatever reason, soothing yourself or whatever, you're able to go there and it's separate than here. When we did unpack that, as a matter of fact, when I had them on my podcast after that, Breon, because they didn't come to your reunion, but they came to mine, my podcast. I said to him, I owe you an apology. And I owe you an apology because had I been a little bit more aware, I would have asked the question earlier about his childhood and upbringing and foster care and abuse and all that stuff that makes one compartmentalize intimacy. So that's why, to answer your question in a long way, is that judgment doesn't allow you to have that conversation. Acceptance without judgment allows you to go, now how could that, how in that person's mind can this reconcile? And then what that allows you to do is to say back to them what they say that usually helps them crack open, oh my god, I didn't think about that. So that's that.

Speaker 5:
[82:44] Awesome. Thanks for your answer.

Speaker 1:
[82:47] We tackle this a little bit at the reunion, but I'm curious your perspective. Another thing I really enjoyed about this season was with the men being in their feelings and the women seeming to be a little bit more in...

Speaker 6:
[82:58] Empowered.

Speaker 1:
[82:59] Empowered and controlled. Like, they seem to have, hold the power in these relationships more than the men. And as a result, I think this season is, I think, a reminder that I think is men often, I don't even think often men realize this about themselves, and I just think us people in relationships don't realize this, but like, men are able to detach from sex easier in general, I think, often.

Speaker 6:
[83:25] I'll go with the generalization. I try to stay away from those gender assignments because I've seen women do the same thing.

Speaker 1:
[83:29] Understood, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[83:30] I think past trauma allows us to compartmentalize and disassociate.

Speaker 1:
[83:35] Not even like maybe detach, but just like I think just the emotional reaction from sex, we generally respond differently.

Speaker 6:
[83:42] Let's go with this for the case of this argument.

Speaker 1:
[83:44] But when the men saw, like, for example, Mikey, when Mikey saw Sydney make out with Xavier, his initial response, that was the first time it looked like he really loved Sydney.

Speaker 3:
[83:57] He was like, we can get through this.

Speaker 1:
[83:58] We can get through this. We can fight for this relationship. When the men heard the women speak badly about them, that's when they were really hurt. It wasn't the physical boundary being crossed. It was the emotional boundary being crossed by the men. And I think that's more common than people realize, that men realize, because I think men, when they're in the kind of hookup phase in their life, I think they can understand how they can go from one to another without really getting emotional connected. But when they feel safe with a woman.

Speaker 6:
[84:29] Right. Young men, sometimes sex is no different than a pickup game of basketball.

Speaker 1:
[84:33] Sure.

Speaker 6:
[84:34] Feels good and it's fun and I'm out of breath at the end of it.

Speaker 1:
[84:37] No emotion.

Speaker 6:
[84:38] So I think there's some truth to what you're saying, Nick. I think I often ask the question, as things are revealed, both to women and men, which is a deeper cut, seeing something physical happen or something emotional? In other words, somebody's having an affair and they're just banging it out with a stranger, does that hurt more than not having sex but being emotionally in love with somebody else? I think the emotional thing is the part that actually, I think on the surface, it doesn't register, but when you actually see it like in Mikey, oh my God, what does this actually mean? That's all that matters. That's all that matters. Everything else can be forgiven or should be, at least the capacity for forgiveness. The one thing I keep saying to everybody on the show and I think is kind of speaks to this is we come into this show, into this life and into this relationship with it, what we think is a definition of what love is. Every time we think we're in love and then it falls apart, we redefine it. It's like, no, that wasn't it, but this is. And then, no, that wasn't it, but this is, until you get the one that sticks. And so I think what this process is, you see things that are visceral, you hear things that hurt your ego, that attack the male ego specifically, and then it makes you have a feeling. And then what I'm kind of trying to coach to is, if it brings up a feeling, that's an answer of actually how this, at what level this matters to you. And if it doesn't bring up a feeling, that's a bigger answer, that this is just not it. And so, yeah, I think the emotional betrayal cuts deeper.

Speaker 1:
[86:14] Yeah, it's always fascinating, because I think we take that for granted, because when it comes to crossing those boundaries in relationship, we'd always just assume it's the physical one that cuts the most, but it's rarely the case.

Speaker 6:
[86:24] Yeah, you know, if we look at the physical one as simply a symptom of something else, you know. But yeah, when you see someone that you love, or at least want, sometimes you don't even love them, you just want them to love you, and they're saying stuff that's running you down. From a male standpoint, the attack on the ego just is like, let's go, right? Just fight or flight. And it's the cut that really hurts, because emasculation is a painful thing. You know, unfortunately, we're programmed to measure. We're always comparing, right? And that's also, there's no win in that, ever.

Speaker 1:
[87:00] Well, Mark, it's always great to talk with you. I love the show, I love you as the host, and I hope to continue to take some tidbits from what you do.

Speaker 6:
[87:10] I've stolen it from somewhere else, so take it, whatever we can. Look, it's a collective tribe mentality on this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[87:18] Final question, what has been the key to your longevity in this business?

Speaker 6:
[87:22] Ah, that's a good question, I don't know. I think, well, from a philosophical standpoint, I must say yes and figure it out later, dude, right? I don't believe in plan. I think plan limits your possibility. I talk about this a lot. There's a quote in Hamlet, I've never seen Hamlet or read it because that would be homework, but there's one quote that says, there are more things in heaven and earth ratio than are dreamt of in your philosophy, which is to say that if I'm going to make a plan is limited by my human ability to imagine, which is limited. So I can only think pretty much linearly. Almost everything that's happened in my career has happened off the page of possibility, not even likelihood, but this is not going to happen. Shows that were canceled in 2004 don't come back and are alive in 26. It doesn't happen, but it has. So I think the key to my longevity is one, as best I can, staying true to whatever my authentic truth is, whether it's comedy, game show, reality show, dating show, whatever, and just being willing to be versatile, learning how to be versatile. It really comes to there's an audience, either live or on TV, there is a language they can hear, and how willing am I to suspend what I want to preach to use the language they can hear. And that's kind of kept me alive for a few decades, too.

Speaker 1:
[88:46] Well, it's a great show. It is streaming now on Netflix. We have The Reunion Tomorrow. Part one is on Wednesday. Part two is on Friday. Come back anytime, man.

Speaker 6:
[88:56] Thanks, brother. You're in the neighborhood.

Speaker 1:
[88:58] Anything you want to plug, promote before we let you go?

Speaker 6:
[89:00] Yeah, I mean, OK. I mean, I've got a podcast that's a little hiatus, but I'm about to relaunch it at Bonfire Talks Podcast. What I'm going to try to develop this into is what I want it to be. I've actually been watching your podcast and others to kind of learn how to do this better. But I'm looking forward to having people from all kinds of reality shows on have a conversation that's less about spilling the tea and recap a little bit more about the kind of conversations we're having today. So that and maybe a book. We talked about that before I came on. I'm a little stuck, but maybe I'll get that happening. But dude, I'm just trying to get my golf game together and I just finished rebuilding my laundry room. So there you go.

Speaker 1:
[89:39] Congrats. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[89:41] You should come back for an Ask Nick.

Speaker 1:
[89:42] I would 100 percent.

Speaker 6:
[89:45] For do-it-yourself home repair or for emotional?

Speaker 3:
[89:48] If you would like to do some home repair at our house, we definitely have some work you can do.

Speaker 1:
[89:51] We have a segment called Ask Nick. We sometimes bring a celebrity. Yeah. You should come back.

Speaker 6:
[89:55] Well, I'll come back as a celebrity or a guest who needs help. I don't care.

Speaker 1:
[90:00] We would love for you to help me.

Speaker 6:
[90:02] I'm in the neighborhood, dude. I live around the corner.

Speaker 1:
[90:04] We'll come back any time.

Speaker 2:
[90:05] Great.

Speaker 6:
[90:05] Hey, safety, happiness, health and an easy pregnancy, an easy birth.

Speaker 2:
[90:10] Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 6:
[90:11] And you stay out of the way.

Speaker 1:
[90:16] Thank you to all our guests, Courtney Revolution and Mark L. Walberg for joining us today, and thank you for listening. Don't forget to tune in to The Temptation Island Season 2 Reunion that airs tomorrow, 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific. We'll see you tomorrow. Bye bye.