transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:02] You know what I find myself doing more and more? Just sitting with things, not rushing to a conclusion. When I'm researching longevity protocols or trying to understand conflicting studies on hormone therapy, I need something that can go as deep as I want to go. That's why I've been using Claude. Try Claude for free at claude.ai/goop, and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Thank you for tuning in to the goop podcast. Today's episode is made possible by Polestar. Those who know me know my car is my mobile sanctuary. It's one of the few places in the day that can feel really calm and restorative. So the space matters. That's why I love Polestar 3. It's an all electric SUV with a kind of thoughtful innovation that I'm always drawn to. Things like massage seats, immersive 3D surround sound, and Google Gemini, which can answer questions, set reminders, and just make life feel a little more streamlined when I'm on the go. The technology is seamlessly integrated and complements the minimalist design. Everything feels intentional, clean, and beautifully considered. Whether I'm heading to a meeting or just taking a moment for myself in the car, Polestar 3 makes the drive feel like a sanctuary. Learn more and book your test drive at polestar.com.

Speaker 2:
[01:33] When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized.

Speaker 1:
[01:39] You do?

Speaker 2:
[01:40] Yeah. Did you hear about that?

Speaker 3:
[01:42] I didn't find the one. I found someone I respected and we made it the one.

Speaker 4:
[01:47] In the sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic.

Speaker 5:
[01:52] Nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand, and on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

Speaker 6:
[02:00] I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life.

Speaker 1:
[02:08] I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the goop podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Welcome to the goop podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. Today's guest is Dr. Dawn Mussalem, a physician and the chief medical officer for Fountain Life. Dawn has an absolutely incredible story, diagnosed with stage four non Hodgkin lymphoma while in medical school. Dawn remained in school while receiving chemo and radiation and beat her cancer. Years later, after her cancer treatment took a toll on her heart, she received a heart transplant and then became the first woman to run a marathon one year post transplant. Throughout it all, Dawn remained positive, fearless and committed to health and wellness for herself and others. Today, she is the chief medical officer for Fountain Life, a longevity clinic powered by AI and is at the forefront of figuring out how we can make new health technology work for us. We discuss her health journey and how it shaped her outlook on life, and how she continues to bring that experience with her into her work today. Let's get into my conversation with Dr. Dawn Mussalem. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the goop podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you on today. I learned about your work relatively recently, and I thought, my gosh, how have our paths not crossed before? So the more I learned about you, the more I felt so excited to have you on and talk about your incredible journey. So I would love to, and I know it's a story that you've told a number of times, that if you don't mind, I would love you to tell me and our listeners about your journey specifically through becoming a doctor and the path there and what happened to you and how that led to such a perspective opening, I should say.

Speaker 7:
[04:28] This is humorous. If you would have asked me at four years old what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said I wanted to be at a smucker's jar. And some people may know what that means, others may not, but the Willard Scott Today Show would celebrate the 100th birthday celebrations of these very vital people on a smucker's jar. And that was so incredibly impressionable to me at the age of four that I really set out at this very young age to discover what it took to be vibrant and healthy and alive and joyful. And I knew I wanted to be a doctor from the very earliest years that I could possibly remember. So, fortunately, my family was very healthy. I think I kind of nudged that for them a little bit, but I was raised very healthy.

Speaker 1:
[05:15] And my undergraduate studies were in health and healthy in terms of your where your where your parents were they thinking about nutrition and exercise and sort of the 360, you know, psychological health of the home and all of that.

Speaker 7:
[05:28] Yes, it was so beautiful. We ate healthy, we have had a garden. I was a gymnast, exercised, but no terrible pressure. It was always building me up. My family believed in me. So my undergraduate studies were in exercise, physiology and nutrition. Of course, I went on to do research and people who were 100 years old, still exercising. It was like so cool. These amazing human beings. And this was in the early 1990s. And from there, I went on to medical school. And for the first time in my life ever, I started out to feel good. And I saw a doctor. He said nothing was wrong. Saw a second, nothing's wrong. Saw a third. He said it was in my head. And this is like three months or so into medical school. And I just remember beating myself up thinking, gosh, why are you being so weak? I was really blaming myself for having these symptoms. And it was a day later that I collapsed going home from medical school, I was taken to the emergency room. I was in cardiogenic shock. They took me to urgent surgery. And the next day, it was Thanksgiving, the year 2000. I can feel myself in the bed in this moment because they did this major thoracotomy surgery that they open up your chest, had chest tubes, very painful. But I remember them coming in and said, you're gonna need to drop, they didn't say what was wrong with me yet. They said, you're gonna need to drop out of medical school, literally without, hello, good morning, happy Thanksgiving. You're gonna need to drop out of medical school. You're not gonna be able to have kids someday. We found out that you have stage four cancer. And in the year 2000s, you know, 2000 people, cancer wasn't common like it was today. And especially cancer in young people, it just wasn't really talked about. And they said, I had stage four cancer, you're gonna have three months to live without treatment, 20 months to live with treatment. And we need to start treatment right away. And that's what they said. But you know, the biggest thing that caught me was, you gotta drop out of medical school because it was just about me. I didn't have a family at the time. You know, so I could be selfish, but I thought, gosh, school for me was my childhood dream. And that was my purpose and my meaning. And so I hired doctors that could align with what was gonna work in my lifestyle. And I really stayed the course with what was powerful for me. And I didn't like cancer redefine me. But the interesting thing was, Gwyneth, is I never fought it. I don't ever remember this mentality of being victim or I don't ever actually remember asking why me? Why did this happen? I just remember being graced with this ability to accept and to think I'm gonna look for lessons in this and learn how I can navigate through this and figure out a way to rise above. And that's exactly what I did. I stayed busy in medical school. I had months of chemotherapy, bone marrow transplant and radiation. And there's a powerful point in my bone marrow transplant where you're in the hospital back then for many, many weeks. And my oncologist, the team that ultimately became my team were amazing human beings that supported everything that I did. They had a bicycle in my room. I set my alarm every day at 4 a.m. Like I do still to this day, would wake up, would ride my bike, would study. I would put on cute clothes. I didn't wanna wear the hospital gown, but I didn't let the disease define me. I just kept on living the life. And I thought, even if today is my last day, this is glorious. I'm living it along the path that means something special to me and is unique to me. But Gwyneth, I just remember looking out, and I was the only one doing that. I remember looking out and seeing all the other patients. And I'll describe it like I've described it before, but they were truly dying in an effort to stay alive. And I remember just being upright and feeling like I was just so vital without pause. And it's just such a powerful message that I want people to know that they too can harness when you stay the path of your truth, not what society expects of you, but what is your truth.

Speaker 1:
[09:35] How were you able to be in medical school while undergoing surgeries and chemotherapy?

Speaker 7:
[09:43] I know it's hard to believe. Now when I look back at it, it's so hard to believe, but I think I just kept my mind so busy with what I needed to do to one day be on the other end. It was this very powerful mindset where I showed up for my appointments when I had chemotherapy. I showed up in the hospital on the day I needed to check in for my bone marrow transplant. Was there many weeks. My medical team would bring me the tests. I would take my tests. Some of them didn't go so good. It was a funny story. One of my chemotherapies crossed the blood brain barrier and I remember studying, studying, studying, and I had the chemotherapy and I'm taking the test and I'm like, oh, where's everything? I just put my brain and fortunately it was a neuroscience test and my professor said, this is unlike you. And I said, actually, I received a chemotherapy BCNU and I know it crosses a blood brain barrier. I think it affected my memory. He's like, don't worry. We'll have you retake it. Take it. So I retake it weeks later and I ended up having a 4.0 through medical schools. So it was really cool. Gwyneth, I mean, it gave me something to do. What else was I going to do during this time? So it was my purpose. It was my defined purpose. From the minute I was holding a cancer to now, just so grateful for every single second. It's just like bliss. It's truly like harmony. And I don't know that I would be where I'm at today or even then if I wasn't given a cancer diagnosis at a young age. So it's just reframing it.

Speaker 1:
[11:10] Before we get into your approach in medicine, I think it would be interesting to talk about what befell you next. I believe in 2008, you were told that the cancer treatment had caused an issue with your heart.

Speaker 7:
[11:26] That's exactly right. So there was a miracle. I was actually able to, my husband and I were actually able to grow our family. I became pregnant. And shortly after my daughter Sophia was born, I started out to feel well again. And this time it wasn't the cancer, but it was advanced heart failure. I was again in that cardiogenic shock and my heart was only beating at 8%. But back then they didn't know. Now there's a whole field of medicine called cardio-oncology that is centered around protecting the heart during chemotherapy and radiation. But back then they just didn't know. They saved my life. I shouldn't have probably survived that stage four cancer. So I don't regret having chemo. But now as chief medical officer at Fountain Life, there's so much power in what I stand for in this position of multimodal diagnostic testing, finding disease before it finds you. That can be scary. We don't want to necessarily unveil what's wrong with us, but if we find it early, we cure it without less collateral damage, if you may, along the way. So I'm just so excited to be in that position now. But yes, I was diagnosed with advanced heart failure, and quite frankly, cancer was so easy compared to that. I lived with heart failure for 18 years, and I was a very active, healthy young woman, and with heart failure, it's a chronic disease. Chronic disease is very tough, no matter what someone's going through. It's hard to learn how to get your ground and how to regain your vitality. Like with cancer, I knew that it was going to be temporary. Soon I would be done with treatment and I would be able to get back to my life. But with a chronic disease, it's kind of always right there with you. So I had to learn a lot of tools. Like how do you get through that? What lifestyle maneuvers do you implement to really help you regain that vitality and the best of your body? How do you exercise properly without overdoing it? The importance of sleep, of love and connection and those people that love you, letting them help you, being okay with the help and support of others. And then also the power of support groups. Other people going through the same thing you are, where you can hold that vulnerable space, that people that could truly relate and be on your page and kind of give you back that true empathy and you're really truly there for one another. So I had heart failure for those 18 years. Gwyneth, the hardest part during that entire journey was my husband actually passed away unexpectedly of sudden cardiac death and that was in 2008.

Speaker 1:
[13:58] Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 7:
[13:58] And that was the hardest thing, you know, disease within ourself. I just feel like we have an internal compass. You can develop that internal compass with disease within self to navigate. You can become your own advocate and make it through. But when the love of your life, the father of your child, when you have any loss, whether that's a sibling, a mother, a child, a spouse, it doesn't matter, a best friend. Loss, I've just come to discover we have to just celebrate the persistence and that love that's just so hard deep within us. And it's been 18 years since my husband passed away, but there's never really moments that you don't remember the beauty of that. And I'm so blessed to have a child from my husband to be able to celebrate that life ongoing. But that was really hard. And this is just a nudge to all the individuals out there that have experienced loss that it's just really hard and that we've got to just hold comfort and space for those that are going through those hard times.

Speaker 1:
[14:58] But then you were told you need a heart transplant in the midst of this?

Speaker 7:
[15:03] That's exactly right. In 2016, Gwyneth, I was giving a presentation. I was a physician at Mayo Clinic for 25 years. And I'm so grateful to everything that Mayo Clinic has done for me, everything professionally in terms of training me to be the physician I am today, to saving my life. And I had a near death experience in 2016 where my heart actually stopped while giving a presentation at Mayo Clinic. And it was that point forward, Gwyneth, that they just knew that the heroic efforts they were making for my heart failure could no longer support the life. So I was listed for heart transplant in 2019. And then I was given the gift, this like unanimous gift, I'm chills from head to toe, of a stranger saving my life. I mean, Gwyneth, it was the most powerful thing waking up to the beat of a new heart. And my body, I didn't remember that you felt your heart. Like, it was so crazy. So I woke up and I was like, what's this? It was just like, whoa, like this feels like a rollercoaster ride. And I was just like beating against the bed. And I've described it for you, there's this like harmonious sound. And it was this powerful beat of my new heart.

Speaker 1:
[16:16] Did you feel the difference in the capacity from the 8% to this new heart?

Speaker 7:
[16:21] Oh my, I wasn't sure if I'd ever be able to sleep again. Because it was so much power. And I could almost hear it. And I just thought, oh my God, there's like this machine in my body. What is this? And my body was warm feeling. And I just remember for anyone that's kind of into the spirituality or the energy, I remember saying like every cell in my body felt like it was oscillating at a higher vibrational frequency. I felt like I could float. It was just like, I was so alive. And truly I haven't lost it. I remember saying, I'm going to harness this and grab it because it's like really cool. This is to this day, like it's such an amazing existence. And I feel like I have so much energy just to share with the world. And anyone that I meet in person, I wish we were in person, I just like hug you, be like, what if you're some energy? But here's all the listeners, here's some energy. But it's because the gift of a stranger, how powerful is that? And I never met her family.

Speaker 1:
[17:15] Did you know who she was or anything?

Speaker 7:
[17:17] No. No, there's a powerful backstory to that. So she was actually an IV drug user with hepatitis C. Mayo Clinic does these high-risk transplants. I was on the list for over 14 months. I was not doing well. I was actually, my life was being supported by medication that was pumping my heart at that point. I was in the hospital. So it was one of these things that initially I had some resistance to because I was judging.

Speaker 1:
[17:44] Because she was an IV drug user.

Speaker 7:
[17:47] Yeah, and I judged. And now I've come to learn shortly after I was told she was an IV drug user. I thought, why am I judging this? I mean, this heart is meant for me. But I think that's part of the harmony that I live with now. I don't know why she became an IV drug user. I don't know what her childhood may have been, but here she's one with me. And I just feel like we live in this harmonious, elevated, gorgeous existence. And what a gift that I get to share. Is the heart just a physical heart? Or is there an energy to the heart? Is there a spirituality to the heart?

Speaker 1:
[18:20] What do you think?

Speaker 7:
[18:21] Definitely. Like I feel her. I'm a different person. I used to be kind of boring and I am fun now. I don't do drugs, but I'm very fun. Yeah, I definitely don't do drugs, but yeah, I'm much more just like, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I got a new heart too, but I feel that energy and that spirit of someone that's unharnessed and that's the life I want to live. Unharnessed with this massive transformational purpose and drive to do the impossible, whatever that is, that you really help to solve solutions for humanity with early diagnostic, with helping to prevent and reverse disease with these messages. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to be here with you, who you're just such a perfect iconic figure of what health and vitality and wellness looks like for women like me, for people like me. So being here with you, sharing this space really means a lot. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[19:18] Thank you. I mean, it probably because I have, you know, it's through my own struggles with, you know, my dad's passing and my own loss of vitality and chronic stuff that I have put myself on this path. So, you know, it's, I don't think of myself as like, as a role model for it. You know, I think of myself as like someone who's just exploring and always, always trying to heal. Just tell me two things, two more things about your heart. Is it, are you on immunosuppressants now for it? And, and so, and that's sort of a lifelong thing that you have to do. And is that, does that compromise other things?

Speaker 7:
[20:03] It can. This is such a beautiful question. And, you know, I think I really live a different lifestyle than most transplant patients. Everyone given this gift lives in this embodiment of such gratitude, because you really shouldn't be here, and you're only here because of the gift of another life. So that is common across the board. What I don't think is always common is this level of vitality that I've been able to achieve.

Speaker 1:
[20:30] I don't even have your level of vitality. I'm still in the heart I was born with. I'm like dying of exhaustion over here, and I'm watching you.

Speaker 7:
[20:39] No, I mean, but you know, I work at it, and I am on a lot of medications, but I also really show up for myself in a healthy way. I love whole food, plant-based nutrition. I don't think it has to be perfect, but for me, it's my joy, right? So for me, eating healthy is something I really pride myself in, and I get super excited about it. And I think that is a choice. It takes me a lot of time to plan eating healthier. It's especially hard when you're traveling, but there's gentle ways of kind of nudging restaurant staff to help them prepare the meal for you that's going to make you feel healthy and better, and also retraining the palate to enjoy the actual flavor of food. So I think, of course, mindset is a lot of my recipe. But beyond that, I think the fine-tuned touch to how I'm able to have this elevated existence is the whole food plant predominant nutrition. For me, it is whole food plant-based. I really rely primarily on plant protein. In terms of animal protein, several times a year, I'll get some fish, but not much. I just love plant protein. I feel really good on soy, sprouted foods, nuts, and seeds. I do exercise regularly on the days that I don't want to. Yesterday, I even did a post. I didn't want to go run at four in the morning, but you got to. Man, I felt so good all day yesterday. It uses up some of that adrenaline, some of that stress. We all have stress. I'd be lying to you if I didn't say I have stress. It uses up that stress. I try to focus on sleep, but I'm not good at that. I sleep great. I just don't have a lot of time. I'm too busy wanting to be awake and alive, but that's not good. We all need to work on our sleep. It's very important. And when it comes to what I think is the most important pillar of healthy living, it's connection, it's love, it's service, it's purpose, it's meaning. That part of it is what excites me the most. So I just feel all that put together is what overrides any side effects I would have from my medication. And if I have a side effect from medication, I listen to my body and I pause and take care of what needs to be taken care of. You can't ignore it. You can't dig yourself into the ground. You've got to pay attention to those little red flags and warning signs.

Speaker 1:
[23:07] You know what I find myself doing more and more? Just sitting with things, not rushing to a conclusion. When I'm researching longevity protocols or trying to understand conflicting studies on hormone therapy, I need something that can go as deep as I wanna go. That's why I've been using Claude. Claude doesn't just hand me a tidy answer and move on. It works through the complexity with me. If I'm reading a 200 page research paper, Claude can analyze the whole thing and help me understand what the data actually says, not what someone wants it to say. And I trust what I'm getting. Claude is built to be balanced, not to feed you whatever keeps you engaged. No algorithmic agenda, just thinking. Try Claude for free at ClaudeAI.goop and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.

Speaker 8:
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Speaker 1:
[25:24] I find it so interesting this sort of dovetailing of a traditional medical education with, and I love to see now that the medical establishment is embracing a more holistic approach. I think the patient as consumer has really pushed into that. But you have first-hand experience, right? As somebody trained in a traditional allopathic system, how did your particular journey, your illness, your new heart, how did that inform your approach as a medical doctor?

Speaker 7:
[26:06] 100%, Gwyneth. You know, you have to go to medical school. You need to learn a lot, but it was through my lived experience that I was able to put the pieces to the puzzle together with what actually mattered. We have to take the medicines, I feel. You know, I honor and I respect conventional therapy. I do. I think that without it, I think people can potentially get themselves in trouble with cancer. Cancer is an evil entity. And especially in someone who's already living a healthy lifestyle, you oftentimes can't live any healthier to eradicate that cancer. So the idea of integrative therapy, where you use the conventional therapies that have been shown to help to treat the cancer, that's what worked well for me. And then obviously, I had some issues along the way. That's why we advanced the science. So we no longer do that. So we have these fields of medicine called cardio-oncology to protect the heart. But gosh, Gwyneth, what we now know is the power of lifestyle that is right alongside conventional chemotherapy. There's research telling us now that exercise for breast cancer, for colon cancer, when we look at the outcomes data, it is equally as effective. Actually, some numbers are a little higher than that of the chemotherapy. Now, it doesn't replace it. It's just you do it together. And then this is how we establish cure. But when we look at the food is medicine, we know that the food is medicine and optimize gut microbiome. That suggests a better immunity. You have better cancer surveillance. We know sleep is so important. So all of this is of paramount importance. We need to continue to drive the research forward in this space.

Speaker 1:
[27:44] Sorry to interrupt you, but do you see that now being more largely embraced by the medical community that's existed for decades?

Speaker 7:
[27:55] I don't think it's being embraced enough at all. And it's not being reimbursed in the way that it should be reimbursed. And that question really hits close to home and very personal, especially right now. In 2015 is when I started the Integrative Breast Oncology Program at Mayo Clinic, specific to the Florida campus. And it was beautiful. It was this whole platform where women got to learn how to eat healthier, did cooking demonstrations, retreats, exercise prescription. There was acupuncturists in the same hall as the medical oncologist, massage therapy, mind-body therapies. Beautiful. And then all of a sudden Medicare starts not covering mind-body therapies. Medicare wouldn't cover acupuncture. All of a sudden, Mayo Clinic kind of start cutting my patient appointment time in half. And what I learned is I needed time with my patient to be in that space, to let them open up the vulnerability, to look at, okay, you've been on Earth 35 years, 45 years, 70 years, however long it was, and to unpack that and to hear them, let them express their voice, express their concerns, express their previous successes and failures with living a healthy lifestyle, and then onboard them. And it was such a successful model, but then all of a sudden insurance reimbursements don't wanna cover it, and there's no way you can do that when your time is cut in half. So unfortunately, my last day at Mayo Clinic was January 31st of this year, 2026. And so now I'm Chief Medical Officer at Fountain Life, and it was heartbreaking to me to have to leave Mayo Clinic. And Mayo Clinic is very proud to know that I'm moving in this direction to try to democratize wellness. And currently what's exciting at Fountain Life is it invests into this multimodal diagnostic platform, a full body MRI to find cancer early. Now, this isn't validated yet. There's a lot of doctors that are going to hear me saying this. They're going to be like, there is no science station should do that. You're right. Who's going to pay for these studies? So that's what we're doing, is we're collecting this data. People unfortunately have to pay at this point. But at Fountain Life, we find 14.4 of the healthy individuals coming through to see us are found to have these life threatening conditions, whether it's cancer or aneurysms or other findings, that they would have never, ever known about. You know, this gives me chills. This is, you know, mothers, fathers, daughters, husbands, wives, you know, these are lives that are very close to us, that we're able to turn the other direction. But beyond that, it's like really to shine the light on prevention. We know that 90% of cardiovascular disease doesn't have to happen. 100% of type 2 diabetes doesn't have to happen. Dementia, we know 45%. When we interview people, you and I would agree. The number one thing we are most terrified of is losing our mind, like not remembering who those who are most special to us, who they are. So we know we can slash the risk of all these chronic diseases, cancer, 50% by just living healthier. And so this is a huge shout out that it doesn't have to be perfect, but you have a choice. And just because you're living the perfect lifestyle doesn't mean it still can't happen. So there should never be guilt if something happens. But we know when people are living the healthiest lifestyles, God forbid something comes to their doorstep, they have improved outcomes because of that healthy lifestyle, which is really a powerful message.

Speaker 1:
[31:14] Can you talk a little bit about Fountain Life, what it is, what it does, how it works, how people enroll in it? Is it everywhere? How does it work?

Speaker 7:
[31:24] You know, currently Fountain Life, unfortunately, these are the medical models that people have to pay to become basically a member or a patient, however you view that. They come in, they come in for a day of advanced testing. This is that full body MRI.

Speaker 1:
[31:38] In a physical place or they were?

Speaker 7:
[31:40] A Bricks and Mortar building. Currently Fountain Life is located in Orlando, Florida, Naples, Florida, Dallas, Texas and New York. We're opening Houston in April of this year. We're gonna be in Miami, quarter three, quarter four this year. Then guess what? We're gonna be in LA. We're supposed to be in LA actually this year. I'm so sorry. We're gonna be in LA very soon though. Quarter one of 2027 and I'm here in LA right now. And man, there's a long wait list already. So the wait lists start. But it's very exciting for me to be able to bring the world's best medicine, best science into the space and start researching. So this is really interesting. So I shared that statistic of the 14.4% of individuals found to have these life-threatening conditions. This statistic is one that when I started hearing the science, this is when I said, you know, I think, not I think I know this is where I need to be to elevate the science in the space, as well as the programming around when you find it, what do you do. 88% of the people that come in to see us are found to have evidence of coronary artery disease. 88% what's more alarming is 23% of those individuals have findings of coronary artery disease that would have never been found on conventional screening. We do something that is a quantitative cardiac scan. It's basically a CT scan of the chest. It's an angiogram that looks at all the vessels. And then we do an AI overlay.

Speaker 1:
[33:03] With contrast or?

Speaker 7:
[33:06] That's correct. And then there's AI overlay over it. And then that AI overlay is what looks at the soft plaque. So in the heart vessels, the hard plaque, when you get a calcium score and the doctor says you have no calcium or you do have calcium, that's like in a stream, it's like the hard rocks at the bottom of the stream. They're not gonna probably move. They're kind of there for good. It's hard to get rid of them. And they're stable. But the problem is the sludge, that soft, messy sludge that's on top of it. And that's what can break off and float away. And it's that soft plaque that conventional imaging doesn't see. And that's the plaque that's the problem. And that's the plaque that we see that 23% of those that were imaging have that otherwise would have known it. And so what this cultivates is this purpose and this why they've got to eat a little healthier. Selfishly is an integrative oncologist for many years. My patients all had a massive reason why they wanted to have this transformational change. I have cancer. I don't want this ever coming back again. I'm gonna live healthier. Now we have this very teachable moment. I have coronary disease. I'm 32 years old. How on earth is this possible? Wow, I need to show up for myself, eat healthier, exercise, focus on my sleep. So really powerful. And we find that 26% of members actually are able to halt and have disease regression, meaning we reverse it. Now that number, the next time you and I chat, I want that number to keep going up, up, up, up, up. And it doesn't mean that we don't use therapeutics, prescription medications. Oftentimes, this is family history-related causes. Even something like Perfect Lifestyle can't outdo some things we inherit. So it's really a place to really extend compassion and empathy and support to help people learn how to live healthier. We look at brain age, we look at fatty liver findings, we look at bone density, muscle, VO2 testing, advanced diagnostics with laboratory testing. We really invest time and working with wearables and then how that can integrate back to you. But the cool thing is we have this massive AI cloud that's collecting all this data and all this learn knowledge. We have over 15 billion data points. Okay, I'm geeky. I got chills right now. I'm like, yay, the data. But the data, so this is a beautiful thing. People come in and unfortunately, currently they have to pay for it, but they're dedicating this trust in us to continue to advance the science via their own funding, because this isn't science that we would otherwise be able to fund. It would be billions of dollars. So we're growing these data sets so we can go back to policymakers and say, hey, these are the lives we're saving. This is the disease we're preventing. It's much more treatable early than being in this reactive care position like we currently are. 97% of healthcare is reactive. The rest is just miniscule.

Speaker 1:
[36:03] Are you looking at the, of course, you have all of the scans. Are you triangulating genetic data? Are you doing blood labs for nutrition and microbiome tests? Is it like an overlay of all those things?

Speaker 7:
[36:18] That's my favorite. We do whole genome sequencing.

Speaker 1:
[36:20] Right.

Speaker 7:
[36:21] Absolutely. So we're able to find the entire genome. Looking at genes like, oh, are you someone that rapidly metabolizes caffeine? What kind of metabolizer are you of X, Y, and Z nutrients? You know, how much sleep does your body tell you you need? So we look at these very advanced metrics. We do extreme measurements of the metabolism and protein and micronutrient deficiencies. My area of expertise has always been that food is medicine. And, you know, unfortunately, even in what, there's no perfect diet. We don't know yet. Currently, I love microbiome analysis. It's not quite ready for primetime, but we're getting closer and closer at looking at the gut microbiome, the oral microbiome. Some situations do the vaginal microbiome, obviously the stool. And then we can look to see if there's certain food preferences that can optimize that. Black beans. 50% of the population may stand to benefit from black beans, but 50%, it may not be a secret food for you. Isn't that cool to find out which one you benefit from? You know, when it comes to eggs, some people are totally fine to have eggs. Other people, it may not be a good thing for you. Red meat, there's a by-product in the gut microbiome called TMAO. People with TMAO, when you eat meat, there's a by-product in meat, carnitine, choline, that comes from some of the animal proteins. If you are a TMAO producer, the concern is, that's what sets the stage for the atherogenic plaque. So how cool is this? I get to individualize the entire approach to care. It's so exciting. And this is the medicine of the future. This is where we need to be. And I think that when we're able to really bio-individualize our approach to care, is when people get excited, and there's no magic bullet.

Speaker 1:
[38:04] Right. I think, well, it is so highly, highly personalized. And to your point, our genomes are so different, our microbiomes are so different, and there's not a perfect diet, there's not a one size fits all approach. And that's what's so exciting about where medicine is right now, and the people like you who are at the forefront of this overlaying all of these things, and especially from the genetic component and understanding that, yeah, you just don't process this well, or you don't detox this well, or you don't make phosphatidylcholine, or whatever the case may be, and understanding the genetic components behind these things and getting people feeling better so much more quickly, because I think what you talked about suffering with this chronic thing for 18 years, and I think that's what traditional medicine hasn't done well, is the chronic piece up until now, with the integration of everything, and understanding the downstream impact of inflammation, and the diseases that it causes, and what is causing inflammation in the body, and it's so fascinating to see. So I'm wondering how you think, you talked about the AI aspect of the scan, and I think that's just such an incredible emerging landscape of how AI is going to help physicians read things, you know, radiology reports, et cetera. How do you think that AI will give doctors like you leverage? For example, you talked about, in your previous job, onboarding patients and not having the time to sit and talk about all their history, and I keep thinking, why is there not some kind of AI platform where a patient can put one time all of their information, all of their history in the most detailed way? And I don't know, just how do you think AI will impact the patient-doctor relationship and give you leverage?

Speaker 7:
[40:06] That's exactly what we're doing. OK, I'm bringing you, I want you to come do a session. I want you to come and have all the testing and then I'll review it with you.

Speaker 1:
[40:14] OK.

Speaker 7:
[40:14] So cool, so we have something, it's called Zorri. That's what our AI tool is. And Zorri is clinical, it's doctor-facing and member-facing. So the doctor-facing part is collecting these billions of data points so we can put things together from a research tool. The member-facing is super cool and I'm, this is, I would say what I'm most excited about is building out even more connectivity back with the member with their wearables. So there's this continual discussion and communication. But basically what Zory does is it has this hand over every single metric that the member uses and it continually can provide information. So I'm here at this event, there's a bunch of members that happen to be here also, because this is an AI advancement abundance conference. So it's real exciting and they're coming out to be like, take a picture of your food and it'll tell you how much protein you need. If you need to add a little more or you could say, what should I do for my workout today? It will help to guide you. How much calcium are you consuming? Take a picture of your meal and it'll... So it's completely interactive with the member. Say you're traveling to Switzerland and you twist your ankle and you need to go to the emergency room. You could say, hey, I need an overview of where all my recent tests were for the doctors. It'll generate all that for you. So Zuri is your little personal doctor always at your side. Of course, it felt like you have a doctor also. This is kind of different than some of the... There's a lot of longevity clinics nowadays, but we have world-class doctors that are there to be in that space with the member in that year period of time to guide the individual. And then at the annual follow-up, that's when we repeat the testing, including biological age and these sorts of things, so that people can see how they're doing better with the interventions they're using. But that Zuri tool is actually part of what we do, and it's been a lot of fun for people. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:01] That's gonna be a game changer. I was at the doctor the other day of the dermatologist, and I'm, you know, for the 8,000th time in my life, filling out, you know, all of the... I was like, someone has to solve for this, you know?

Speaker 7:
[42:13] Oh, no.

Speaker 1:
[42:14] It's crazy. Why do you think that cancer is so on the rise and that, you know, we have like colorectal cancer now and very, very young kids in their 20s and coronary artery disease is on the rise? Why is this happening?

Speaker 7:
[42:34] Yeah, that's such a good question. And it's not fair, right, to see, to witness what we're seeing, young people getting this disease, that used to be diseases of the elderly. And it shouldn't happen at any age because these are totally preventable diseases in its environment and lifestyle mediated. You know, there's so much to unpack there in that question. And number one, people aren't moving their body. Exercise and movement is so critical and it optimizes metabolic health. And there's multiple things that drive cancer. You know, it's not just one. It's a whole smorgasbord of things. But the metabolic health is a big driver. And exercise uses up that sugar. You know, the muscles pull that sugar into the muscle and it gets rid of it. The sugar, the insulin, those are big problems when we think of cancer. So number one, metabolic health with exercise. And then of course, we know nutrition, fiber. There is a big push towards getting more protein. And I'm not here to diminish that need. I will say, yes, people need more protein. The current new food pyramid, I like that they highlighted the 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of protein. I personally agree with that based on the science. That's a hard number for people to calculate out. If people are hearing that, that equates to 0.54 grams to 0.7 grams per pound of body weight, some people argue that.

Speaker 1:
[43:56] I can't follow this.

Speaker 7:
[43:58] I know.

Speaker 1:
[43:59] I need a calculator.

Speaker 7:
[44:01] People need a calculator, so they could write it down 0.54 to 0.7 grams per pound, and that would be your range of protein.

Speaker 1:
[44:08] Pound of body weight.

Speaker 7:
[44:09] Pound of body weight. Ideally, it's like ideal body weight. Gosh, everyone has access to ChatGPT. They can just say, this is my body weight in pounds. How much protein should I have based on the new food pyramid? And it should be based on ideal body weight. It'll calculate out for you very easy.

Speaker 1:
[44:26] But isn't it also true that the protein, like it's not all created equal, that protein from plants or protein from animals, like in terms of grams per pound, does it shift?

Speaker 7:
[44:38] Yeah, great, great question. So that's interesting. We now know from years of research, now I want to give a big overstatement here that this is population data. That's what we need to do, is look at the largest studies to date. What's the best we can do until we can really individualize some of these answers? But the population data would point to, yes, if you're getting enough protein, animal versus plant protein is equally effective. Back in the olden days, when I was initially, I was always vegetarian when I was young, it was something I just felt I wanted to be a part of. I felt good being that way. We would make sure you got your nut butter and bread at the same time. It was like complete proteins, your beans and rice. Now we know you don't have to do that. It's balanced and there's complete proteins that are plant-based. Things like soy, some of the mushroom root proteins are novel proteins. They're new, they're very cool. Quinoa, but quinoa is certainly for a plant-based person, not going to be their primary source of protein. It's going to come more from things like soy and certain things like that. But going back to what you're saying, if you're getting enough protein, that's why I do emphasize, then you're going to be fine whether it's plant-based or whether it's coming from an animal origin. It doesn't mean you need to be vegan. You can get animal sources of protein, but you want to make sure you're getting some plant protein in there too, preferentially, especially when we look at a great study that was published in March of 2025. It was actually released in March of 2025. I think it was actually published in May of 2025. It was a dietary pattern for healthy aging. And they asked a more important question, what is the path to healthy aging for the body? So that you could hit 70 without all these chronic conditions. And they showed that, yes, you want to get more vegetables, fruits, whole grains, beans, nuts, and that low-fat dairy was healthy. The things it said to avoid are the things we would, it's common sense, sugar, salt, but you know what it said? It said processed meat, obviously, and red meat. So this is a big thing. There's 105,000 people, 66% were women. It's a powerful study. We're women here. You probably have a large population following you that are women. And the Nurses' Health Study had 48,000 women, and this study was published about two years ago. And it answered, again, this very important question, but I love this because there's a lot of narrative that gosh, there's no research on women. Interestingly enough, the Nurses' Health Study pulled out a lot of really beautiful lifestyle data for us to understand what it means for a woman to live healthy. Of course, this is just population data, but it's a good number. And anytime someone hears a claim and it seems like, that seems very contradictory to what my favorite Instagram individual health expert I follow is saying, I like to bring the science forward because I don't want to be contradictory. I just want to be moving forward with where the science is. So back to the study, 48,000 women, I followed them for 30 years. And the question was beautiful. They said, what is the path to healthy aging for our physical health, for our cognitive health, and for our mental health? And what they showed is that plant protein won. That plant protein afforded healthy aging by 38 percent. That dairy was 14 percent healthy aging. So yes, you got benefit there. And animal protein was about 7 percent. So what it shows you, it doesn't mean that you can't have animal protein. It just means balance it out a little bit. Don't overdo the animal protein. Fish is totally part of a healthy diet. You just want to make sure you source your fish from safe sources. The water isn't as safe as it used to be. Some fish is very high in mercury, so you don't want to overdo it. So these are just important messages for people. And meat is very expensive. Sometimes it's less expensive for people to use legumes or lentils or the edamame or tofu and things like that.

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Speaker 1:
[50:27] Some people say, some nutritionists say, or functional medicine practitioners say that, you know, the, the lactans in the hulls of the legumes and, and the rice, et cetera, and the quinoa are inflammatory. What do you say about that?

Speaker 7:
[50:44] So I think this is an important talking point. And what I would first say is, how do you feel when you consume those foods? How was your gut? And this is where getting into this advanced diagnostic testing matters, because I do deeply believe in food sensitivity testing. I love gut microbiome testing. I have personally used biome for many years in my clinical practice. And for me, relying on some of that guidance makes sense. So if someone is feeling inflamed, if their inflammatory markers are increased, if they have joint pains, chronic fatigue, and you do the food sensitivity testing, you do the gut microbiome testing, and it's saying to avoid, let's say black beans, or it's saying to avoid soy or to avoid quinoa. What I like to do is to use that individualized recommendation, hold those foods for a number of weeks, let the body heal. Then as the body's feeling better, we slowly, one, you could retest to see if those food sensitivities are still there, usually the body heals itself, and you could add those foods back in. Or you could just add those foods back in one at a time, every two weeks, to say, oh, I tolerate this food now. Okay, the next, I tolerate this food. With the beans, it's important people cook it properly. There are lectins, but the body generally can handle it in a body that is healthy and optimized. Or we want to make sure we cook the lectin away. So this is the importance. Number one, talking point is you want to soak dry beans overnight, rinse them really good, because that gets away some of that gaseous component. Then pressure cook the beans or make sure you cook the beans well enough, so that you don't have as many, or any, I should say, of these GI symptoms. But it needs to be individualized. I don't think it's fair for people to be on an ethical platform of vegan and promote plant-based diets based on population data and stick it to everyone, because there's going to always be unique situations of people that don't tolerate. So honor your body, listen to your body's inner code, and move forward accordingly. Not everyone can afford this testing. So if you think you have a trigger, I would hold it for a number of weeks, and then slowly add it back in to see if you tolerate it. But that's kind of like an elimination diet is what I'm talking through there.

Speaker 1:
[52:56] How does the food allergy test work? Because some people say, oh, there's not a lot of science behind it, or it's just how your body's reacting to something on that day. But how do those food sensitivity tests actually work?

Speaker 7:
[53:12] I think this is a good argument, and this is why a lot of these tests, this is why the testing has been covered by insurance, and this is why we don't have necessarily large enough numbers to really be able to fairly answer this question. But I have had patients who have demonstrated definite improvements in their symptoms when they take that break from an offending agent. I also think that people overeat certain foods too much. This is where I love the American Gut Project that clearly said food diversity matters. And just don't overdo any one thing. If you don't overdo any one thing, that is going to be the harmony. The biggest problem I would say in America though, Gwyneth, is the majority of people aren't doing any of these sorts of healthy foods in excess. The biggest problem for the majority of people is in the ultra processed foods. So, a lot of times we're quick to point our finger to one thing, but that's in the presence of this disastrous diet that is really ridden with a lot of fake ultra processed foods that I think is pushing more of the problem than these healthy foods that are getting these negative reputations for things like lectins that I've seen not truly ever be an issue in my patient population, particularly when I got rid of those fake foods. It takes more time. I would be lying to someone if I said it was easy. You have to spend more time in the grocery store reading those labels. I don't get it all into the food classification system, because if we were to be honest, tofu is a processed food. It's coming from soybeans. But if you look at the ingredient list and make sure that that ingredient list doesn't have ingredients on there that are otherwise coming from a factory, that would be the best approach, I would say, try to get things as close to nature as possible.

Speaker 1:
[54:51] It's difficult because these highly processed foods are cheap, and there's an affordability issue with food in this country. And it really breaks my heart to see the industrial food complex profit off of putting these foods which are disease-causing into the culture. But I don't know, what is your recommendation for people who are really budget-conscious?

Speaker 7:
[55:20] I am really happy you're touching on this subject, because I think too often in these interviews, people don't, you know. I was physician for Blue Zone's Jacksonville, Florida project, beautiful project where we go into the zip codes within Jacksonville, Florida community, where the individuals had food insecurity, and we were discovering solutions. One was reorganizing the grocery stores in those locations, so that the healthier food was more out front. You know, really having foods, not just in the perimeter. We know when they always say you go around the perimeter of the stores, it's the healthier foods, but also having different things in even the aisles, so people were more exposed. Working with policy, so that there's more discounts on the healthy foods, not to penalize the unhealthy foods, but to incentivize the healthy foods. So really, you know, fortunate I'm in Florida, it makes it a little easier, but community gardens, or if you're in a cold area, community greenhouses, where the community comes together, you're cultivating that sense of community, which is so beautiful anyways. Church groups, faith-based communities are a great place to do this, but learn to grow produce. I will say that being a physician at Mayo Clinic in that cancer space, my patients that are most memorable with the most transformative lifestyle changes and shifts were almost always the ones that had more affordability. They had these powerful stories where they lacked affordability, I should say, where they had to be really active agents with figuring out solutions of sprouting or buying the dry beans and soaking them, cooking them in bulk. It did take them time, but a lot of them learned, maybe I don't have time for the TV, but I'm going to get busy in the kitchen like my grandma used to, and they found a lot of joy in this. They would have their kids be a little bit more active. So this is something we have to work more on on a community level, and those of us that can afford it, we have to step in and try to give back. Tony Robbins has this whole movement of trying to feed billions, and this is where we just have to try to be on service of others to continue to elevate humanity. But food is a challenge in this country. I am active in the space of novel food innovation, and I'm very excited. I think a lot of people would be scared when they hear this, but there is this ability for us to grow mushroom, mycelium in glass tubes. You know, it grows under perfect conditions in greenhouses, and we can grow so much of this healthy protein, and it's very tasty. So in the future, there's going to be likely this opportunity for even novel foods, things even including mushroom, that would give us sustainable, affordable food choices. But you're right, Gwyneth, the ultra-processed food is, it's hacked the palates of our youth, of adults, and it's the leading contributing cause to many of these chronic diseases that we're seeing today.

Speaker 1:
[58:19] I think people are really coming to understand that now, and I hope that there is systemic change there, because it's very worrying to see all of these rising cancer rates in kids, especially in the colon. I feel like it has to be linked to process foods and what we're putting in everything, glyphosate on everything. The government just said, oh, let's double the use of glyphosate on everything. I think it's certainly having an impact.

Speaker 7:
[58:47] I know. That strikes closely home to me. Though I didn't really ask a lot, why did I get cancer as a young girl? I played in a creek that was a runoff from a major soybean cornfield. Oh, wow. I had a diffuse large B-cell lymphoma, so it probably was glyphosate. For many years, I was able to keep that cancer at bay because I lived that healthy lifestyle and the body has this ability to work and fight and keep the cancer away. But then, you get distressed, you start not sleeping. I was in medical school. It's like this perfect hit sort of a phenomenon. Cancer eventually over time may show up at our doorstep, you're right. There's a powerful study showing that individuals who consumed more ultra processed food, particularly mono and diglycerides, this is a common ingredient that you find in a lot of plant-based foods, like vegan ice cream, vegan butter, vegan yogurts. Just because something says vegan or plant-based doesn't mean it's healthy. You've got to look at the label. This is where the whole food is always better. But mono and diglycerides were linked to an increased risk of cancer, a dramatic increased risk of breast cancer by 24 percent, prostate cancer 46 percent. Kerengians were linked to an increased risk of breast cancer by 32 percent. These are very scary numbers. Again, these are observational studies. It's not perfect science, but it's the best we have. But it gives us a signal to know you've got to avoid those things. Kids' diets are really rich in these foods from a very young age. You pair that with it. They're getting no vegetables and fruits. They're not getting fiber. They're not moving their body. They have more body fat than they've ever had before. And then metabolically, it's not the healthy stage we need the body to be. And 93% of Americans fall under that umbrella with metabolic problems. So very, very important conversation, Gwyneth.

Speaker 1:
[60:41] Okay, so in closing, because I'm out of time, which I can't believe, I would love to know what a woman like you, who's at the epicenter of future health, who's also a cancer survivor and a heart transplant survivor, what does your, you have access to all the data, all of the emerging research and modalities and tools, how do you look after yourself? And what are sort of the three to five things that we should all be doing in your view?

Speaker 7:
[61:13] Number one is love. I think it gives me chills. You know, love self, accept self, develop that harmony within. Like really just, like anyone listening, as long as you're not ready, like, you know, just that pause and just like to settle into the heart and just feel that gentle essence. I just think that's so important to connect with self. And then with others, like, just extend that to others and love others and be kind and don't judge and be of service. If you're in a position to be of service, lend a helping hand. It starts there, number one. Number two, in that spirit of loving self, you've got to show up for yourself. You have a choice. You've got to spend more time preparing healthy food or navigating a way to do it. It's so important that bio-individualization of healthy nutrition is unique to each person, but we know the basics matter. Get rid of the fake food, eat more vegetables and fruits, try to not overdo animal protein only, get some plant proteins in there. It's that simple. Sometimes I do a 90-minute talk on food. It's just that simple. Get variety, but eat more vegetables and fruits. You've got to move your body. You can't sit around all day. One thing I would always see is individuals in the gym for 30 minutes every day, and they'd sit the rest of the day. It's not about that. You don't even need a fancy gym membership. Just move your body. Get your adequate amount of sleep. We want it to be in that range of seven to nine hours. Sleep regularity, always, always, always trying to work at waking up at the same time every morning. When you wake up, put those feet on the ground, what's one thing you're super grateful for and send a loving message to someone that means something to you. And then last, you want to really try to limit those toxic substances. You know, drink fresh water, try to avoid plastics, really try to limit alcohol. If you're going to a social event and it's something that's special to you, it's probably not going to hurt you, but really we don't want to overdo alcohol anymore. We know smoking is no good. So that's kind of the not sexy part, but the rest of it's really beautiful, I think. So that would be my message, but I love this. I love you. Thank you for the beautiful platform that you're on and for this time today.

Speaker 1:
[63:23] This has been so special. I appreciate your time so much. Thank you.

Speaker 7:
[63:28] Thanks, Gwyneth. Have a beautiful day.

Speaker 1:
[63:29] You too. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Audacy, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3:
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