transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 7:
[00:46] Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series, Real Time with Bill Maher.

Speaker 8:
[00:51] The host of the late night series Kara Swisher wants to live forever, airing Saturdays at 9. Kara Swisher, he's a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, former National Secure Advisor under Joe Biden, Jake Sullivan, and he was Obama's White House Chief of Staff, Mayor of Chicago, Ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel. Wow, what a resume we have here. Okay, so you probably just watched, you're on overtime here, the show where I ended with the thing about AI. All of you said to me right after it ended, I'm right, so we all know that it's going to kill us, but we just keep going toward the cliff like the lemmings. Is that about it?

Speaker 3:
[01:30] You said something very powerful in your statement there. You said the very people building this technology are warning us about what's going to happen. They're saying, we're doing this, we're on the cutting edge of this, and it's really dangerous, do something. And all of us are just kind of like, oh, I guess we'll see what happens.

Speaker 9:
[01:47] Well, except here's the thing, they did this a long time ago, I was at dinner parties where they're like, we don't know how it works constantly, this was a decade ago. And one of the things I started warning about the social media was the same thing, this is dangerous. And what they, they're more interested in the journey and the money, because all of those people, Elon Musk, took billions and millions of dollars to develop it more. It's not like they're stopping. Elon Musk did not say, it's so dangerous, I'm terrified of it, now I want to stop. He's suing to get control of open AI, or paid by it, or funded. So every one of those people who yell safety is also taking money from Ventracalvis to grow bigger.

Speaker 8:
[02:23] So what can we do?

Speaker 10:
[02:23] The warning sign here, well, the federal government is going to have to finally do something.

Speaker 9:
[02:28] Correct.

Speaker 10:
[02:28] They can't kind of go the three monkey routine, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. When Dario Anthropic says, I'm not putting this product out, I'm not living in a world where one CEO's moral compass is what saves us. That is not how this is going to work. And the federal government is going to have to finally do something. We're going to get industry, academics, public policy people all around the table. And what we do in federal government is we set a regulation, we wait 30 years to say it will work. This is going to have to be real time, constantly updating things. But the federal government cannot do what is this Wild West, because these guys, as you put their pictures up there, it looks a little bit like an FBI photo shot, cannot be in control. They have to have adult supervision.

Speaker 8:
[03:13] Can we go back to Dario is not releasing this, because he's got a moral conscience? He is. He's just releasing it to 40 big companies. You think it's not going to get out. You think you can release something to 40 major companies and it's not going to get out to everybody at a certain point? I give it about a month.

Speaker 9:
[03:31] It is a low bar. That's what it is. He's the best and it's a low bar. Right. And what's really interesting is that we're not going to regulate. They have so much money. You know how much money they have. Elon Musk is about to become a trillionaire and it's absolutely going to happen. And with that much money and that much influence, they can't even pass a basic privacy bill. I've been screaming about it for 20 years. They get mowed down by lobbyists and PACs and everything else. And now there's a new AI PAC that they're funding. All of these same people are funding the AI PAC. They're funding a crypto PAC, which got rid of... I mean, they can buy anything.

Speaker 8:
[04:07] But you know Elon pretty well.

Speaker 9:
[04:09] Well, not anymore, but yeah.

Speaker 10:
[04:10] Right.

Speaker 8:
[04:11] Okay. Well, it's been a little more...

Speaker 10:
[04:13] But he knows you.

Speaker 9:
[04:13] A little more... Elon Won. I know Elon Wonin.

Speaker 8:
[04:16] Those quotes I read from him, they're from a few years ago, at least. Right.

Speaker 9:
[04:20] It was.

Speaker 8:
[04:20] It seems like he was the guy, because I do remember when he first said that statement, and it was the first time I'd ever really heard anybody say anything like that.

Speaker 9:
[04:28] Well, he said it to me at an interview that we did. Right.

Speaker 8:
[04:31] But it was a while ago. Over 10 years ago. And I was like, oh, this has not been on my radar. Okay, Elon says it. Maybe it is a thing. But lately, I don't hear that from him.

Speaker 9:
[04:42] Of course you don't, because he wants to be part of the rush of winning. And one of the things, when he said that, and he said it at a conference, because that's when he started OpenAI, with Sam Altman and with others, because they were scared of the power of the Googles and the Facebooks and the Apples. And it was just to protect people and create guardrails. And instead, it's so much money, they have to go for it, I think. And now it's a dick measuring company.

Speaker 3:
[05:04] So Kara, is there any answer to this then? I mean, because I think you've sketched out this money motive is massive, but we've got to be able to do something.

Speaker 9:
[05:12] I think people, because people are sick of this shit, like the suicides, I've interviewed all those parents whose kids have died. And these people are still trying to skate out of culpability, like as if it's not accountability, legal lawsuits and someday a perp walk. I'm sorry, it has to happen.

Speaker 10:
[05:27] One thing, first I actually think it's one place that actually Xi and Trump, when they meet in about a month, actually could agree on something, because both of them are scared of this.

Speaker 8:
[05:35] Right.

Speaker 10:
[05:35] Not fully not. The second thing.

Speaker 8:
[05:37] You think Trump is scared of it?

Speaker 10:
[05:38] No, I don't think Trump is, but he's desperate for a deal, anything with Xi, so he looks good, desperate. And I think this could be the one place. Second, I would just say, he had two trials slightly off sides, I mean off to the side, which is on the social media and kids. They all went to jury, and the jury took like 10 seconds, boom, slapped them down. That tells you how angry and anxious people are. It's separate issue than AI, but these media moguls slash technology moguls do not understand the loathing people have for the way they are acting.

Speaker 3:
[06:10] AI is almost as unpopular as the Democratic Party.

Speaker 9:
[06:13] Right now, the Democratic Party.

Speaker 11:
[06:15] It's like, in the polls, it's right there, and look at that.

Speaker 5:
[06:17] But guess who is, guess who is, guess who the boss is going to be?

Speaker 9:
[06:21] Like, they're buying everything, whether it's Apple, it's not just L'Oreal's, and they're all buying the media properties.

Speaker 8:
[06:26] See, I don't think it's on Trump's radar. I can't think of anybody in that administration, and this is why I fight back so very, people say you shouldn't have had dinner with Trump. I should have dinner with him again, because I'd bring this up in two seconds, and he would listen. I can't, who is bringing it up in that administration?

Speaker 3:
[06:44] Now, the person whose radar is on now is Scott Besson, who called in all these guys. Why? Because he's worried that this mythos gets out, you get cyber attacks, you get a complete collapse of the financial system with it the whole time.

Speaker 9:
[06:56] But more than that, no, he did have people, he brought in David Sacks.

Speaker 8:
[06:58] We know that for a fact, that Scott Besson is aware?

Speaker 3:
[07:01] That he's actually summoned these folks in.

Speaker 10:
[07:02] And the Federal Reserve, they both called him in, and called him on and said, okay, wait a second here.

Speaker 3:
[07:06] This has been a wake up call for them.

Speaker 9:
[07:07] But who did they put in place? David Sachs was the A.I.s.er. He's a long time Silicon Valley investor, tight with Peter Thiel and Elon and the rest of them. They brought in Emile Michael of the Pentagon, who did that ridiculous thing around anthropic, like calling them, never called an American anthropic.

Speaker 8:
[07:23] Peter Thiel, who was asked, like, should humans keep living? And it was like not an immediate answer.

Speaker 9:
[07:29] No.

Speaker 8:
[07:30] It was like, I'm thinking, you know.

Speaker 11:
[07:35] This is not an SAQ question. That is not an SAQ question.

Speaker 8:
[07:40] Because they think we're going to be the, we are the, you know, this is the singularity. I remember when Ray Kurzweil was talking.

Speaker 9:
[07:46] He's still doing it.

Speaker 10:
[07:47] What?

Speaker 6:
[07:47] Singular.

Speaker 9:
[07:48] He's still doing, he's still around.

Speaker 8:
[07:50] And he predicted this a long time ago.

Speaker 9:
[07:51] Oh, he wants it.

Speaker 10:
[07:52] That's right.

Speaker 6:
[07:53] Right.

Speaker 8:
[07:53] There was a difference between predicting it and wanting it.

Speaker 9:
[07:55] Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[07:56] I don't want to be half robot. I mean, look, if the parts that are not my brain. Yes.

Speaker 10:
[08:02] As your doctor, you're not half robot. Okay. It's not happening to you. Okay. Not everybody else. But for you, you're not going to be a half a robot.

Speaker 8:
[08:12] You're not a doctor.

Speaker 10:
[08:15] All right.

Speaker 8:
[08:15] Let's move on. These are from the people. You ever proposed, this is for you, Rahm, 10 percent, you have proposed a 10 percent tax on prediction markets. A 10 percent tax on them. Okay. What kind of impact would this make? Give me the bones on this.

Speaker 10:
[08:30] The bones on it? 10 percent on online gaming.

Speaker 8:
[08:32] Prediction market.

Speaker 10:
[08:34] You know, polymarket.

Speaker 8:
[08:35] Polymarket. Yeah.

Speaker 10:
[08:36] And as Kara said, when you guys were doing the interview, we're cutting National Institute of Health, National Science Foundation, NIDARPA by 40 percent. Xi and China is doubling up every year on their research. We're losing the race. We're sitting on fumes. And we have to increase our research and development dollars. We have $400 billion in growing spent on gambling. I want to bet on America, not bet against America. And that's what we're doing right now. And plow all the money into doubling up on research. So we don't lose this race on fusion, nuclear energy, quantum computing, life sciences to the Chinese, which we are now losing.

Speaker 8:
[09:14] So you think the polymarkets thing are that influential?

Speaker 10:
[09:17] I think the polymarket, oh, absolutely. And I also think there's insight trading going on. And I do think online sport gaming, when you put them all together, it's $400 billion and growing. I'm for $40 to $50 billion of additional money going into finding a cure for cancer, finding a new energy source around fusion. We're not doing it. And the Chinese are competing, winning, and we're sitting here on the sidelines.

Speaker 9:
[09:40] Except they just created a pack for that, the gambling.

Speaker 10:
[09:42] Yes, I can't tell you the sense. So my view, 10% across the board to create the revenue goes into lockbox. The second thing, everybody in the federal government, everybody, you are banned from participating in the online market.

Speaker 11:
[10:01] I'm going to say this, I'm going to say this.

Speaker 10:
[10:02] You have kids from Peoria and Pontiac fighting a war, and you got a bunch of Nepo babies down in Palm Beach betting on it. That's not how we do this in America.

Speaker 3:
[10:12] And making a lot of money, too. They pick the moment, when are we going to hit the Supreme Leader? There's a bet on that hours before it happens.

Speaker 10:
[10:19] Unless they know.

Speaker 3:
[10:20] Because they know. That's the insider trading.

Speaker 10:
[10:22] We have seen more trades on oils, on the oil market, within minutes before the trade. That is, you don't need AI to know insider trading. It's against the law, and nobody, the cops, not showing up. So my view, 10% tax. And if you get a federal check.

Speaker 9:
[10:38] Sullivan Jr. is in those two companies.

Speaker 10:
[10:40] No, I did say Nepo Baby Palm Beach.

Speaker 9:
[10:42] Okay, got it.

Speaker 8:
[10:49] And you are...

Speaker 11:
[10:51] Submits my new quality.

Speaker 8:
[10:53] You are the only person at this table who has suggested that. I saw other people running for government.

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Speaker 8:
[12:30] Has the media overstated the rise of authoritarians in Europe and around the world? What do you think of Viktor Orbán's defeat last week? I did have that exact thought. Like, again, the media kind of played me. I mean, for years, all I've been reading about is he's the second coming of Stalin. There will never be democracy again in Hungary. And then, oh, actually, well, people got tired of a guy just like they do in every democracy. They didn't like him, and they wanted somebody with different policies, and they voted him out, and he went and conceded the next day. So I do feel a little used.

Speaker 3:
[13:03] Well, I'll say one thing about this. This guy, a little hurt, this guy...

Speaker 6:
[13:06] He was an ally of him...

Speaker 3:
[13:07] .did everything he could to tilt the playing field in his favor. And yet...

Speaker 6:
[13:12] Yes...

Speaker 3:
[13:13] .when you add up all the harms that he did to Hungary and this new movement that came in that you would like to see, because it set aside all the old constituencies, all the old specialties. It said, we're going to bring everyone together, we're not going to wilt, as you were saying before, this young guy, Peter Majjar. And they went, they had to run through new media, because they couldn't use the old media. In fact, this guy went on television now, having won the election, went on state TV, which would not let opposition figures appear, and said, the first thing I do as prime minister is shut you down. So he was rigging the game. No doubt about it.

Speaker 10:
[13:46] I agree, but here's the lesson for Democrats. I mean this in the rest of Europe. He made Orban's corruption relevant to Europe's inability to pay. So in my case, the president of the United States gets a plane from Qatar, you get six bucks a gallon. Great trade, as my mother would say, such a deal. Who would not think it? He's going to get his arch, and you can't afford the golden arches. And I have other guys go right at it. Well done. Okay, thank you.

Speaker 11:
[14:12] My thing is, it wasn't, you know, all the elites say, oh, it's corruption.

Speaker 10:
[14:16] Corruption never sells you, idiot. It's making the corruption relative in how you're getting screwed. And that's the lesson from Orban.

Speaker 8:
[14:23] You're the only person at this table making that case, and I think it's a great point.

Speaker 1:
[14:28] It is. You're not going to let go of that, are you?

Speaker 3:
[14:32] No, not for the rest of your life.

Speaker 8:
[14:34] Cannabis use is on the rise among women, oh, in the United States. And for the first time recently, oh, perfect for 420 coming up on Monday, for the first time recently outpaced men. Why does the panel think that is?

Speaker 9:
[14:51] No idea.

Speaker 10:
[14:52] Can we go back to AI.?

Speaker 8:
[14:56] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, because men are bad.

Speaker 9:
[14:59] Who's the expert here?

Speaker 8:
[14:59] And we need to get high? On pot?

Speaker 9:
[15:02] Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[15:02] And women.

Speaker 9:
[15:03] Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[15:06] What do you think of JD Vance saying the Pope should be more careful when talking about theology? Oh.

Speaker 9:
[15:14] Let me take that one.

Speaker 1:
[15:17] He's the Catholic, right, Rahm?

Speaker 11:
[15:18] He's the resident Catholic.

Speaker 9:
[15:20] I mean, as I've said, he has the charm of a cybertruck as a politician. I have one thing, I mean, look, the Pope is also an American citizen and should be able to say whatever he feels like under the First Amendment.

Speaker 8:
[15:40] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 9:
[15:41] And he just looks like a putz, I don't know.

Speaker 11:
[15:45] That's the one, as, look.

Speaker 8:
[15:47] Well, he's such a recent convert.

Speaker 10:
[15:48] The Pope is an Augustinian-trained Pope. Augustine is the one that developed the concept of just war. You're gonna lecture the Pope on the concept of just war? I think, as one Jewish kid, that takes a lot of chutzpah. I mean, that takes a lot of chutzpah.

Speaker 11:
[16:07] And I got a lot of chutzpah, but that is a lot of chutzpah.

Speaker 8:
[16:09] Augustine, that wasn't like Augustine's main thing. His main thing was that you're born with original sin. You're evil to begin with, and that's why you need the Catholic Church.

Speaker 10:
[16:18] That's why you need him to tell you what a just war is.

Speaker 8:
[16:19] So Augustine was not a good guy either.

Speaker 9:
[16:20] He's gonna out-Catholic you, right?

Speaker 10:
[16:22] No, no, no, no. I'm not going for the Catholic. I'm not for Jews for Jesus, but I am for Jews for Pope Leo. I'm setting that up as my new non-for-profit.

Speaker 3:
[16:31] JD. Bass did not have a great week. I mean, lecturing the Pope about theology, which I don't know Aladdin for chutzpah is, but that is crazy.

Speaker 10:
[16:40] Right.

Speaker 3:
[16:41] Going and showing up with Orban saying vote for this guy and then getting absolutely repudiated. Then 21 hours in Pakistan and he comes home and is like, I got nothing. That's like in-

Speaker 9:
[16:49] Don't leave out the hall he couldn't fill.

Speaker 3:
[16:51] Well, there you go. So that's in one week.

Speaker 10:
[16:53] Don't assume that Trump's not also setting him up.

Speaker 3:
[16:56] And meanwhile Marco Rubio's with Trump at the UFC fight in Miami.

Speaker 10:
[16:59] Let's assume that there's not some evilness by Dr. Evil.

Speaker 8:
[17:11] Plotting to discredit JD. Why does he have to do that? It's his pick anyway. He does that all the time. But all he has to do is say, my pick for my successor is, and his people will follow.

Speaker 10:
[17:21] He doesn't have to do the plot.

Speaker 9:
[17:22] It is not as delicious unless you're pulling out someone's toenails. That's how it goes with this guy.

Speaker 10:
[17:26] When was the last time he's ever showed any loyalty? No. And what he wants to show is that the Republican Party is nothing without me. He's gonna walk out and he's gonna show them there's a one-way street on loyalty.

Speaker 8:
[17:40] I know that personality trait of him because I've seen it in other people. He likes, he wants, needs ass kissers around him, but then he does not respect them. If you do it, he doesn't respect you. He actually likes me because I didn't do it.

Speaker 9:
[17:54] Yeah, I can tell by those things.

Speaker 10:
[17:56] I think it's like...

Speaker 11:
[17:57] Exactly.

Speaker 10:
[17:58] He likes to punch down and kiss up. That's what this president does.

Speaker 8:
[18:02] Rahm, what is one thing Japan does well that America should consider adopting?

Speaker 10:
[18:07] It's the most beautiful thing I've seen. Five-year-olds walk to school all alone.

Speaker 8:
[18:13] Yes.

Speaker 10:
[18:13] And they don't... There's no fear. They go across the streets. They walk 8 o'clock.

Speaker 2:
[18:18] And it is...

Speaker 10:
[18:21] It is... I tell... I told all the Japanese business leaders, you can have Mount Fuji. A five-year-old this big, a backpack this big, with their little uniform, they come to a street, they put their hands up, all the cars stop. No, it's sublime. It makes me cry when I think about how gorgeous that is.

Speaker 8:
[18:41] Yes, and it is. But you're trans...

Speaker 10:
[18:43] That's the one person that's done it.

Speaker 8:
[18:44] Right. But you think you can transfer that to America?

Speaker 9:
[18:49] No.

Speaker 8:
[18:49] Where we're not good people like that?

Speaker 10:
[18:52] What can we learn? I'll tell you this. They have a sense of respect and sense of community. We wear masks to protect ourselves. They wore masks to make sure you didn't get sick. And respect for others is a quality that, if you ask me what we could learn, Japan has it in spades and it's an unbelievably beautiful quality. And you see it where they nurture these children and give them back. We've stolen our children's childhood. They have given it to them. And that to me is one thing we can learn from them.

Speaker 8:
[19:18] Oh, good. Say that when you're ready.

Speaker 10:
[19:19] All right.

Speaker 8:
[19:20] Thank you, everybody.

Speaker 7:
[19:23] Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10. Or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand. For more information, log on to hbo.com.