transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:11] Hello, delicious friends, and welcome to Who Did What Now? The History Podcast, That's Not Your History Class, with me, your host, Katie Charlwood, history highlight and reader of books. Now, you may be thinking, where have you been for the past week, Katie? Well, travel and illness. So I've been, I've been getting about, and then I'd gone down to Dublin up and down in one day. So I'd gone in the morning and I got back, I think it was like 4 a.m. And so I get back, I get into bed, I'm done, six o'clock in the morning. So like less than two hours later, I wake up to the sound of my little girl being sick. So there's a vomit and bug going around. Now, luckily it bypassed me.

Speaker 2:
[00:59] I just got a fever.

Speaker 1:
[01:01] So I was like really fatigued and tired. So I was just like coming in from work and just crashing. Luckily, my kids are fairly self-sufficient. No, but in fairness, no, we all just kind of got fevers and we were all not doing great that week. Like it's really funny. So I had so many friends reach out to me because like apart from the fact that I hadn't really been in contact with anyone, I hadn't been posting online and that was everyone's main concern, which I think says a lot more about me than it does about them. But yeah, why was I in Dublin? Well, I'd gone to see Lucy Darling. Oh, if you have not seen Carissa perform, like she is a delight. She's so quick and witty. And also, which I think is probably, you know, the most important part of this, a very skilled magician. And I had brought my friend Cormac with me. If you saw me post online, I said he was my favorite plus one. So I'm sorry, Hannah, you know I love you, but he always makes sure I'm fed. It's just a thing. So I had gone to the Irish Podcast Awards and he came as my plus one, last minute by the way, because the person who was supposed to come with me bailed the day before. So like the Irish Podcast Awards wasn't exactly the most organized of events. And so they're like there's food and it's like where? And so he goes out searching and he comes back with like steak and Yorkshire pudding and like, oh, there's food for me.

Speaker 2:
[02:34] So yeah, yeah, he feeds me.

Speaker 1:
[02:35] So he gets the number one slot. So like, here's the thing. I have this habit whenever I buy tickets or something, I always buy two. Partially because if you buy one a lot of the time, it's like there's going to be a single seat here and you need to not have that. And also because you never know when you're going to bring a friend. Like, there's always someone, right? Like, I've never gone to an event and not had someone want to come. So I always buy a second one because I can never know if someone can afford it or if they hadn't seen the, you know, the announcement or whatever. But I always get two tickets just in case. That being said, I'm going to be in California and Nevadison and Nevada. I did say and, not in, so like I know all two different states. So I do look forward to seeing some of y'all out and about when I'm there. And I will be filling you in on what's going on when I get back because I have news coming, great, wonderful news. But I know what you're thinking.

Speaker 2:
[03:37] You're thinking, quit your jibble-jabble, Katie, and fact me.

Speaker 1:
[03:41] And fact you, I will. But first, we've got to get our source on. Our sources are Unsinkable, The Molly Brown Story by Joyce B. Lose, Molly Brown, Unraveling the Myth by Kristen Everson, Heroine of the Titanic, The Real Unsinkable Molly Brown by Elaine Lando, Margaret Brown, The Unsinkable Lady by Kieran Cornliffe. Of course, we have Encyclopedia Titanica and our old favourites, history.com and biography.com.

Speaker 2:
[04:23] Are you sitting comfortably? Good, then let's begin.

Speaker 1:
[04:29] Anyone who has heard of The Titanic, or dare I say it, seen the movie, listen, listen, I know that's where a lot of you got your Titanic information, okay? No shame, okay? It is a starting point. But most of you have heard of The Unsinkable Molly Brown, played by the fantastic Kathy Bates. Now, before we get even further, like, before we even start talking about her, her name's not Molly. And you might be thinking, oh well, isn't it short for Margaret? Eh, maybe, but that wasn't her name. Like, she was never called Molly during her lifetime. This is another one of those things where she died and they're like, let's change her name. Let's change it to Molly, it's more jolly. Like, no, she was called Maggie. Like, that was everyone's friendly name, not Molly. And that was until, until Gene Fowler writes his book, Timberline and what do you know, it's stuck. So Molly Brown was born Margaret Tobin on the 18th of July, 1867, in Denkla's Alley in Hannibal, Missouri. It's near the Mississippi River, right? So it's, that's where she's at. I think this is also the place where, like, Mark Twain is from or around. But anyway, she's born to John Tobin and Joanna Collins. John was a laborer at Hannibal Gas Works and sometimes had stints clerking for a riverboat office. Because, you know, the river. And Margaret, known as Maggie, was the middle child. So her parents had both previously been married and had children from both. And then more once they got together. So they're all part of the Irish Catholic community. It's very tight-knit. And I don't want to use the word poverty, except it is poverty. Because even though they're in the lower classes, they're like not the poorest of the poor. You know, John worked manual labor mostly, but he did have clerking on occasion. And Maggie's aunt was a teacher. And her brother-in-law owned a candy store. Now, speaking of brother-in-law, I should discuss siblings. So Maggie had two half-sisters, Catherine Bridget Tobin by her father's first marriage and Mary Ann Collins by her mother's first marriage. Her other siblings were Daniel Tobin, Michael Tobin, William Tobin, and Helen Tobin. Although I think they just called her Ellen. Oh, and her parents' previous spouses, they had died, okay? These were Irish immigrants. There was no divorce on the table. Like this is a death until part situation. So her maternal aunt, Mary O'Leary, was a teacher at a grammar school. So all the children were educated up until, I think it's the seventh or eighth grade, which was very typical for the time, especially for children of that class. Her dad was specifically into a hard work ethic, and that all the kids should have it, because that's very much a working class attitude, because the thing about being working class is that if you don't work, you die. Unless you're either end of the life scale, in which case you are cared for, because it's what the village is. Like you care for the people who need support, the vulnerable in society, get aid from those who are not vulnerable, okay? The able bodied, the people who are working, right? That's what you do. But yes, work they did. When Maggie's 13, she worked at the local cigar factory alongside many other girls from the Irish community in Hannibal, and she earned a dollar a day, a whole dollar. It was a dirty job. You've got nicotine in tobacco stain hands, it's very labour intensive and there's no child labour laws, so what can you do? You leave school and then you get a job. Like back then, you went from like child to adult, and there was no real teenage phase. But like, I think after the cigar factory, she does get a job in the park hotel. So like she does vary things up a little. But yeah, this is how things went. You went to school, you worked, you got married, and if you're a woman, you start raising them babies. Like that's how it goes. So she's in the park hotel, and then, like this is a few years on, and she's 18, and she has to upstix and move out west. So John Laundragon, Maggie's brother-in-law, Mary Ann's husband, he went out west to run a blacksmith shop. Then her brother Daniel had gone out west seeking his fortune, and unfortunately, being a single man, he needed a little lady to keep house. Why hire a housekeeper when you can get your sisters to do it for free? Maggie and her sister Ellen joined their brother Daniel out west in Leadville, Colorado. Okay, why Leadville, Colorado? I hear you ask. Well, there was this little thing called the Gold Rush, and some men have struck gold out in Leadville, and so more joined them. And there's like, well, it's not just a Gold Rush, because there's also a Silver Rush. And like, silver was in the coins, you know. And by the time Maggie and Ellen arrived, it was a lot of syndicates, big companies in charge of mining operations. And Daniel, he was now working as a miner, and Maggie worked in the drapery department of a department store. So he's earning, what, 250 a day, and she's earning a dollar, a whole dollar. So she's serving all these rich customers, she's seeing them fancy folks, and she wants a piece of that pie. And so, you know, like her whole life, she's supposed to get married and have kids, like that's what she's supposed to do. That's just society, right? And so she dreams of marrying a rich man, because in all fairness, that is the most logical route to escape long hours on low pay. She dreams of marrying a rich man, but instead she falls for James Joseph Brown. Now these two, they're a good match. They're both charming, they're both social, they're both poor Catholics. I mean, he wasn't poor. I mean, he wasn't poor, poor. He was like poor enough, right? He was a superintendent in the mines, not a manual labourer. Like, he was hungry for information, so he was like studying engineering and geology and like fixing things. Like, if there was a problem, he'd solve it, check out the beat and let the DJ revolve it, so he would just come out and fix the problem. If a machine wasn't working, if somebody wasn't doing something, he would just be there and he would sort it out. He basically made himself indispensable. Right? Now, the two lovebirds, they get married in the Ludvill Annunciation Church on the 1st of September, 1886. She's 19 and they move into a two room cabin out of town to Stump Town. That is a real place. So they marry and move to Stump Town and they hire a housekeeper. Okay, no offence to anyone who is from Stump Town if it's still called Stump Town. Listen, listen, you should hear some of the place names in Ireland. I mean, you could read them and probably not pronounce them, but you should hear some. So this kind of shows that they're moving up in the world because they can afford a housekeeper. And then they do something interesting. They hire tutors. Like, they both had at least a standard education, but they wanted to be more knowledgeable and have comprehension. And get this, right? They even let the housekeeper sit in on the lessons. Like, everyone's getting improved. Like, if we're getting it, you're getting it. Like, that's... they didn't have to do that. And I don't think higher class families would have done the same. So a year after they're married, their first child is born. Laurence Palmer Brown, followed by Helen the year after. So somewhere between this, most of her family had moved out west. Her sister and her husband had come out. And Maggie, she's sharing the wealth, what little she has. She knows they're better off than some. And so she starts organizing soup kitchens for the poorer miners of the town. And she's organizing clothing drives. Like she's giving. So she's at this a while, and then the Panic of 1893 strikes. The Panic of 1893 is like an economic depression that lasts eight months, officially.

Speaker 2:
[13:36] But the effects were felt for years later.

Speaker 1:
[13:39] People lost their jobs. Silver crashed. So like the Great Depression in the 1930s, like this was the big one before that. And when silver crashes, like gold is on the up. And this is quite fortuitous for the Browns. So JJ. Brown, he's working in the Little Johnny Mine. And the Little Johnny Mine is hemorrhaging gold. And so he used some engineering, Woody McCollots to explore an ore stream and get the gold out. And the IBEX Mining Company were so grateful that he was awarded 12,500 shares of stock and gave him a seat on the board. Meanwhile, Maggie's out there running soup kitchen to help miners' families because she's cool like that. So this does two things. One, it pushes the Browns to the top, giving them lots of money. And two, it helps ensure jobs and investment for the town. So after they get this kickback from the Little Johnny Mine, they travel to the World's Fair in Chicago, the Colombian Exhibition, which we discussed in the Little Egypt episode and the H. H. Ohms episode, which I will probably go back and cover again sometime. Now Maggie, she loves the exhibition. She gets really excited about other people's cultures. And this is the inspiration for travel, to explore, to learn. She's excited, you know, and she wants to see more. And the Browns, well, after this, they make the big move to Denver in 1895. She's 27 at this point. And you know, she's got a house. And wait for it, indoor plumbing, hell yes. Like they buy this Victorian mansion. And it's funny how we call it Victorian because Queen Victoria has got nothing to do with the US. But like we talk about these eras as if they're transferable, but kinda, I guess. But yeah, she's got indoor plumbing and she's living her best life. So the Browns enter Denver Society. Now, there's this myth that she just storms in, all guns blazing, but it's less like that, and more like women, well, women. One woman in particular didn't really like her, and treated her as though she was lowly because she was new money, as if old money was that much older around that neck of the woods. Like, you're talking, what, a decade, maybe two, for a lot of these families? They're like, oh, we're so rich. It's like, yeah, honey, you made money off the railroads 10 years ago. You're fine. Now, the Browns had more pieces written up about them in the society papers than any other family for 20 years. So yeah, I think they're all right. So over the next decade, Maggie embarks on her favourite hobby, separating rich people from their money and giving it to the poor, like Robin Hood in Leg of Mutton Sleeves. With her Denver Club ladies, I think it's like the Secret 36 or the something 36. And like, I can't take it seriously, cause I'm like, what is it? The Crazy 88s, is it? Oh, that's a wee shame.

Speaker 2:
[17:25] Like the society names, oh, our society has a nickname.

Speaker 1:
[17:30] Does it?

Speaker 2:
[17:31] That's a bit silly.

Speaker 1:
[17:34] I know it's really common, but it's silly to me. But with her Denver Club ladies, she organizes neighborhood vegetable gardens so that, you know, poor people have food, like they can grow it, they can eat it. There's public health clinics, art shows for schools, traveling libraries. She raised money for summer schools and playgrounds. She even raised funds for the YWCA and the working girls home. Not, not like that. Like an actual place for girls who worked, who could love, like so they could love. Another thing she's instrumental in is juvie. Like the juvenile justice system. Hear me out. Okay. I know this is a pretty big claim. But see, back in the day, it didn't matter your age. A criminal was a criminal whether you were 38 or just eight. Children were doing hard time. Like children were doing hard time. It's madness, all right? In Maggie, she has this friendship with Judge Benjamin Bar-Lindsay. And side note for him. So back when he was an attorney, he had two clients to defend. This is the story he tells. And he was shocked to be introduced to these young boys. And this knocked him a bit because they were like treating actual children, like hardened criminals. And he's like, what is this? And so he gets into social reform and enlists the help of one Mrs. Margaret Brown to gain support for his juvenile justice system plan. Basically, he's a pioneer in the establishment of the juvenile court system. And thanks to him, an act was passed creating a juvenile court in Denver, which was an important advance in relation of the law to kids and would go on to serve as a model for future juvenile courts across the entire country. So, this happens much in part thanks to her funding, because nothing really happens without money. You know those people who say they're socially liberal, but fiscally conservative? I'm sorry, bitch. What in the lack of economics are you talking about? The majority of countries in the world are capitalist, meaning nothing happens without money. And you don't have to be a sociologist to understand that poverty breeds crime. You know what? We're already here, so sidebar, okay? There are literally centuries of evidence that show that providing funding and support in low-income areas actually reduces crime, raises life expectancy, creates employment, greater safety in the area, economic growth. It bloody helps. Like education. Education is the greatest key. It's the greatest step out of poverty. But you need to fund education. You need to fund the hospitals, right? Otherwise, you're just saying poor people deserve to die, right? Like, no. We don't live in a meritocracy. Like we like to act like we do, but we don't. And so the whole point, again, the fucking village is that the people in the middle, people who are earning all the money and doing all the working and people who are able-bodied, they look after the people on either end of the scale, the babies and the oldies, okay? That's where we're at. So, sorry. So anyway, Maggie Brown, she is raising money and funding away for this juvenile system. So she's sorting that, but again, she's investing in public playgrounds, childcare centers. Like she's very ahead of the time, like a thoroughly modern Maggie. Now, just in case you think this woman could not get any cooler, when her brother Daniel is widowed and struggling to raise his four children, so three daughters and a son, she takes the girls in and raises them. Cause he's like, I can keep the boy. And she's like, sure, I'll take the girls. Cause here's the thing, historically girls were seen more as a burden. And she's like, no, no, it's fine. They're mine. And she raises them like they're her own. Okay, her and JJ both. Now, she may have been doing all this good work, but she and JJ also built this fabulous estate called Avoka. Or well, they build this house, this cottage. If I have to hear cottage, oh, they have a cottage and it's got 43 rooms. Mate, that's not a cottage. Like, no. But anyway, so she has this fabulous estate. It's called Avoka, named after a poem with a country home just outside of Denver. And this was the place to be. Like, society people were chomping at the bit to jump in a carriage and visit the Browns at Avoka. They'd hold dances and social events, yes, to probably raise some money for charities. They'd have picnics, the good kind, not the murderous kind. So she's in the city. Oh, like she's out in the country. She's everywhere. Like she's not only wealthy, but she's popular and she gets connected to people all over. Like, big people, the people with money. So the Astals, the Vanderbilts, and even a Countess, right? So there's this Catholic Countess who gets her title from the Pope, because the Pope can do that apparently. They can just make people counts and countesses. And she gets it because of all of her charity work. And so she starts hanging out with this Countess who introduces her to all these people in New York. Like, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Now Maggie, she does have a gift of the gab. Like, she's known for telling a fib or two. And it's like, it's always blown out like, oh my God, she lied about this and she lied about that. And I'm like, she exaggerates, right? And I think if you're doing all this work to raise money and you have to keep the attention of these rich folks, I'm not surprised that she just adds shit here and there, especially when she gets like stuff about being said and people are treating her dodgy. She's like, well, fuck you, I'm gonna say this anyway. Because she didn't grow up with the same social norms as the company she's now keeping. Like, I mean, here's the thing. Catholics are fairly strict when it comes to a lot of stuff, especially the Irish Catholics. There's a lot going on there, which we will delve into another time probably. But yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:08] But also coming from an Irish community, especially, there's always gonna be banter and a gift of a cab.

Speaker 1:
[24:14] It's just gonna be part of you.

Speaker 2:
[24:17] So yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:18] But also she is properly traveling, okay? She goes to Europe, Asia, Africa. You're naming all the continents, Katie. I am, yeah. So like she probably would have gone to Antarctica if it was an offer. Like she would have been like, yeah, just give me, just give me a muff and off I go. And like she's a character. Like people pay attention to her when she's in a room. Like she's not a quiet person, which I think is the main issue. It's like seen and not heard and she's not, I'll be seen and heard. Thank you very much. So she loves Europe, right? And she's super into how it educates children. And I think most, if not all of her kids are educated in Europe at some point. So I think both Larry, Sir Lawrence and Ellen, like they both, they're educated on the East Coast of the US and they're also educated in Europe. So she travels sometimes with her husband. She manages to drag him out. Others, she brings her kids and sometimes she just travels on her own. Because being an older lady, she can do that. And her family, they're doing well. Like her daughter, Ellen is presented to society like a proper coming out debutante. She's presented all over, like New York, Newport, Paris and of course, Denver. She does try and get her debuted at the King's Court in London, but it doesn't work. Like she tries everything. And honestly, listen, listen, you can't blame a girl for trying.

Speaker 2:
[25:55] I just love, I love this so much. So she's like doing this and doing that. And she's like, oh, but have you seen my daughter? She should be shown to the King.

Speaker 1:
[26:03] And the King's Court is just like, no, you can't just do that.

Speaker 2:
[26:09] I just think it's really funny.

Speaker 1:
[26:10] So like clearly she's helping out her family and they're doing well. And there is like a social mobility situation happening because her sister Ellen, who is, remember traveled to her to work out West to help look after her brother's house during the gold rush. She's now married to a German baron. And this is the second time she's married. Her first husband, I don't, like I heard there was a divorce, but I'm like, okay, that means she changed her religion. Did she? Okay, okay, Ellen. Like that's a big deal. So Ellen marries a German baron. Like, so a baron from Bavaria. And so Ellen becomes Baroness von Reizenstein.

Speaker 2:
[27:04] So they're now titled.

Speaker 1:
[27:05] She now has a titled family member, which then also by association brings her social standing up as well. And because of this, like, clearly, again, things are going well.

Speaker 2:
[27:18] She's popular.

Speaker 1:
[27:19] She's getting invitations to stuff. And Maggie and her daughter Helen somehow get an invitation to the coronation of King George V in Westminster Abbey. If you're wondering which one this is, he's the spare who got married to his deceased mother's fiance and had a fight with his cousins that started the Great War.

Speaker 2:
[27:39] Okay, we all caught up.

Speaker 1:
[27:40] Wonderful. So she's 43 years old and some sneaky so-and-so discovered that the Browns were legally separated. Gasp! Like, it had all been very hush-hush. See, JJ wasn't into the whole lot of social stuff that Maggie was into. He preferred to work, right? He didn't like that she was in the papers. He didn't like that she was, you know, traveling and doing all this stuff and, you know, giving away all this money. And so, yeah. So, now, there are rumors, there are rumors that he was dipping his spoon in other honeypots, but whom's to say? Because I could not confirm that, but I did see that written about a lot. But, like, he very, very much hated her being out in society ways. Like, he thought all the stuff she was doing was very improper. Like, he hated, you know, all of the charity stuff. And not charity, like, he didn't mind the actual giving money to the poor. It was all of the going out and asking other people for money to give to the poor. Like, he hated society stuff. He hated all the social gatherings. He hated her European friends. He basically hated Europe as well. Like, honestly, I think the man was a little bit on the spectrum. Like, he liked things exactly how he liked them. And that's that. So, they separate. And remember, they are super Catholic. They are incredibly Catholic. This is a very Catholic family. And so they don't divorce, cause that's just a big no-no, right? And so he puts her on an allowance. Like the whole point that they work out this legal separation situation is because he wants to curtail her spending, even though he's like so rich, so, so rich, right? And so he puts her on an allowance. One whole dollar. No, it's actually $700 a month, which is I think approximately 20 grand in today's money. So he's like, you have $20,000 a month to spend.

Speaker 2:
[29:47] What? What?

Speaker 1:
[29:49] Okay, so separating, but like divorcing was a bigger scandal, but this was also a major scandal back in the day and they had been outed. And so she has to get like the heck at a dodge. Like what's so funny though, is that when the big secret is out, like Lawrence and Helen, so they're kids, they take Maggie's side. Like they are very pro-Maggie. But yeah, she leaves and heads to Newport in the winter, because she needs to escape society. And here's the thing, Newport is not a winter destination. So she's effectively there in her massive house all alone. But then she gets an invitation from her dear friend, John Jacob Astor and his wife, Madeline, who are travelling to Egypt. And Maggie, Maggie loves a camel. So she joins them along with her daughter, Helen. Now the Astors had a scandal of their own. So Jack, John Jacob, he had been married to Ava Lowell-Willing. And so they got married, they had two kids, and they just didn't really get on. And so she had moved to England a lot of the time. And she comes back and she sees him for divorce, and he's like, cool, cause I want to get remarried anyway. And yeah, and she leaves, back goes back to England and then marries a baron. So she is fine, right? But like he is in a scandal because he gets divorced in 1909 and then he remarries in 1911. And he's like 47 or 46, 47. And his new bride is 18. So yeah, so they're also getting out of dodge, but they're like super, super, super, super rich. Like they are like uber rich, like it's wild. And so they were just like, okay, that's fine. Off they go. So, so the Aster's and Maggie and her daughter Helen, they all go to Egypt. Now like Egyptomania is like such a big thing. It's super popular at this point. I think, I'm not sure if it's just before or just after this, you know, they discover the tomb of Tutankhamun. No, it's like, I'm like way ahead. It's like another 10 years, but like Egyptomania is still very much like a thing. People are obsessed. They're starting to value the kings and it's a very big thing. And so she's going over there and she's doing some theft. She doesn't realize it's theft because she thinks she's just like sharing other cultures, but no, she's taking stuff and it's gonna be, you know, the museums over in the US. So they're in Egypt, they're heading to Paris, or I think they're in Paris actually. And then Maggie gets word from Lawrence that her new grandchild is very, very ill. And being the boss ass bitch slash amazing grandmother she is, she decides she's going home on the first boat she can get. Now Helen, she stays in Paris because she's got a few things she needs to do and she's then supposed to hit London for a bit. But Maggie, she makes her way to Shellbull with the Astors and buckets and buckets of artifacts for museums. So they get to Shellbull, they have their tickets, they get on the SS Nomadic, which still exists by the way, like this ship still exists. You can go on it. I mean, it doesn't go anywhere. It's like docked, but I've been on it. Which this Nomadic, it's, I mean, it's small-ish. It's big enough, actually, but... And so what the Nomadic does is it delivers people, it ferries them from the port to the ship that's gonna be doing the transatlantic journey. So the SS Nomadic is the very last ship that exists from the White Star Line Company. Like, I think I'm fairly certain. And this brings it out to the main ship that would be taking them across the Atlantic Ocean, the Olympic class vessel by the White Star Line. And along with her friends, Maggie Brown boards the Titanic. So it's April 1912, she's on the RMS Titanic. She's been sailing for a few days, and she goes to bed in her room, which cost her, I think it was like 54 pounds at the time. So the ticket system for the Titanic and all of those like vessels, those transatlantic vessels was weird. Like it involved a baggage man who would sort of assess your luggage and assess your stuff. And like the size of your room, the size of the stuff you need, like it would all come into this. So like her ticket, her first class ticket, like cost the same as like another dude's second class ticket. Like it was, it's complicated. There was like a whole system that I will discuss one time, but it's not, it's not as easy as going, well, it was 850 pounds for a first class ticket. It could have been, it wasn't necessarily that because it all depends on like where you are on the ship as well and what time of year it is. And cause like this is like the low season, like out of season. So everything is greatly reduced anyway. Like if this was high season, then obviously the prices would be at their highest, but they're not. So, yeah. Anywho, she's sailing. She's a well traveled lady. She knows her stuff. So when she's knocked out of bed, she knows something is up. Like she's been on boats. She's, you know, done these crossings a few times and there are, I'm gonna say unusual sounds. Like this isn't normal, but then nothing happens. No one comes by and no one is panicking. Like she pops her like head out the room and she's in her nightgown. So like she's not supposed to be seen in her nightgown. Like that's a big no-no. And like across the hall from her, like where she's got her cabin, like there were two employees from Gimbals and like they're gonna come in relevant later. So anyway, she's like, nothing's going on. Like Dorothy Gibson's in like the cabin next door with her mom and she's like, fine, okay. She goes back to bed. She is awoken by a banging on her cabin door. She is told to get ready to go up on deck and to put on her lifesaver by one of the Gimbals employees from across the hall. Not a steward, not a member of the White Star Line, but just a dude across the hall. He's like, you need to get dressed now. And she said his face was sort of gaunt, like he was scared, but she's like, cool, okay. So she gets dressed and she's layering her clothes and she's like, I don't like the sound of this. So like she's putting like stockings on over her stockings cause she's like, I just, I have a weird feeling about this. She grabs this little, she's got this little Egyptian like, idol token thing and she keeps it in her pocket cause she's just like, it's meant to be for good luck. So she grabs that and she's like putting layers on. She puts on her black velvet outfit that she'd worn to dinner. She has her forstole, she even puts on her hat, right? Cause like she's gonna be respectable, but she's gonna be fucking warm. So she's grabbing everything, she's layering up. Like she's wearing too many layers, like for, like just a reasonable day, but she isn't too many layers. And so she gets on deck and is told to get into a boat, but she doesn't listen. Instead, she helps other people get into the boat. Like there's one woman who wants to go back to her cabin to get her jewellery and she's like, no, like you're not going back, you need to get into this lifeboat, woman, like get in. And right, she's just, she's there and she's like light all over his hair and he's, she says he seems frustrated because no one seems to be listening to him, which does sound exactly right. So here's the thing. She says that she was pushed into lifeboat six by the two fellas from Gimbals and that she fell four feet into it, you know, like as it's being lowered. Now, which is a great story, but it's not exactly true. Like she is a habit, again, of exaggerating. See, where this comes from is she feels she owes the men her life because it was them who alerted her to the danger. And the men who survived the Titanic, well, they got a hard time of it. And being the person she was, she did her best to turn the court of public opinion to see these men as heroes, because to her, they were. So either way, I think she's grabbed by the shoulder and they're just like, get in the lifeboat. And so she's like, okay. But I don't think it was them. Someone pushed her because they were, I think, in Lifeboats 3 and 5 on the starboard side of where Murdoch was. So they were in a boat because they were just getting in it, right? Now, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I think she was shoved, but not like pushed overboard, like get in the boat. And she's like, okay fine, Jesus, no need to push me. So she gets in the lifeboat and it does not have enough people in it. It has 21 women and a 12-year-old boy, and also like one crewman. And they realize they don't have enough people to like do anything. And so there's this first-class yachtsman, and they're like, somebody needs to get in it. And so he sort of goes down the falls to get into the boat to help. But he, he breaks his arm in the process, and so he can't do anything.

Speaker 2:
[40:23] He's like, I tried.

Speaker 1:
[40:25] But like they, yeah, they didn't have enough crewmen to like actually row the damn boat. So like she's, all the women start rowing, okay? Like they start rowing because they have no other choice. Right? And like the crew member, he's on the tiller, and they're rowing and they're struggling with this cold because there's like seven to eight inches of water in the boat. And these women, they're on this boat. They don't have their loved ones. They don't know what's going on. It's dark, it's cold, and it's getting increasingly quiet. And Maggie, she starts peeling off layers of stockings because she's got so many. And she's sharing them with women who didn't adorn theirs. Cause like some women did just like come out of bed, shove a coat on and then end up in a lifeboat. And so she's like, get warm. And so one of the reasons they're rowing is because they're just trying to stay warm. Like because they have to do something. Now Maggie, as the silence is coming around, she wants to turn back. But this one crew member they have, he refuses because he's worried the boat will get swamped by people desperate to, you know, not die. And so this lifeboat, which has 20 odd people in it.

Speaker 2:
[41:46] And it can hold like three times that.

Speaker 1:
[41:48] He's just like, no. Like she wants to go back and save people. Now she says that she, you know, got all the women, you know, grabbing an oar and like she tells them to get rowing. When basically all the women in the boat were just like, let's row, let's do it together. And like, it's a little bit of an embellishment, but like she was involved, she did row, but it was less her leading and more of, more of them all just doing it. Because what else are you going to do? So everyone in this lifeboat, they're just bobbing on the ocean and they have no idea that they're going to be rescued. They have no idea that the Carpathia is on its way. They're alone in the ocean. And finally, they get a glimmer of hope. The Carpathia comes into view and these women, they're rowing but they can't seem to get close enough to the ship. But eventually, they get close enough for a ladder to be sent down the side. Like, imagine it's freezing. You're barely able to move. You've just lost your friends, your family. And then you have to climb a rope ladder up the side of the ship one by one to ensure that you live. So on the Carpathia, the doctor tells her that they have cabins ready for first class women.

Speaker 2:
[43:13] And that she should just like go rest, because you know, you've had a day.

Speaker 1:
[43:17] And she's like, fuck this for a game of soldiers, and starts collecting warm stuff. So like blankets, clothes, like for third class passengers. See, the captain of the Carpathia had gone around and asked passengers for blankets to share with survivors. But Maggie takes it one step further, like she goes into the barbershop and clears it of combs and soap and bicarb or whatever they were using to clean their teeth with. Like people forget how something as basic as general hygiene can make someone feel better. And I think Maggie just needed something to do. Like she needed to help because you know that woman has survival's guilt. Like knowing all those people died, knowing her lifeboat was not full, knowing they did not go back to help people. So she's doing what she does best, fundraising on the boat. Because she's thinking of the families in the boat that are now going to end up in a new land without their earner. Like women and children with no means to support themselves. So she's doing what she could. When she finally makes it to New York, the news was already out and her brother Daniel had traveled across the country to see her, to see that she survived. See, they're in the hotel together and like she's trying to keep a record of survivors and where they went so that she can send the relief to them, so that she can get the funding to where it needs to go. And she becomes the spokesperson for the Survivors Committee of the Titanic Tragedy. Oh, and for the record, her grandchild ended up being okay, like, huzzah! So what's funny is her family knew she was on the boat, but no one else did. So when Denver Society found out, well, of course, it was front page news. And what did dear old JJ. Brown say? He said, she's too mean to stink. Like, how dare you, sir? How dare you? See, like, part of me is like, was this just like a malicious thing he said? Or is this very much just like a very Irish, very Irish Catholic? I mean, he's not Irish, but he's been around enough of them because like, it's a very, banter is interesting because like Irish banter is kind of an insult, but it's not like there's a line and we know where it is, but we don't state where it is. It's a very complicated system, except it's not, she says. But yeah, so like he says that, and obviously people are like, how dare you?

Speaker 2:
[45:56] She survived a tragedy.

Speaker 1:
[45:58] So that kind of helped her a little bit actually, because they're like, oh, she's clearly the good one in this situation. But she is now society's darling, and there's this huge dinner for her when she is the toast of the town. Like remember earlier when I said there was like one woman who just like was her social nemesis and just didn't like her? Well, she's the one hosting the dinner for her return. She's like, Maggie, I always liked you. So Maggie Brown wants to testify before Congress. So like, here's the thing, six women testified. And all of the survivors are like, six will do. Six will absolutely do. She's not one of them. Like she's ready. She offers to go and she doesn't get the chance. So in true Maggie Brown style, she makes sure she's heard. With a serialized three-part story in the newspapers about the sinking of the RMS Titanic. Now, she wrote it. Now, we all know, like old timey newspapers, don't really have a code of conduct. They just printed what they liked. And so embellishments are going to happen. Whether or not she corrected them because they're now in print. And a weird thing is when people see words written down, is they're like, well, that must be right. And they don't question it. So, this may shock you, but these newspapers, they do well. And she basically becomes famous. Like she was already known in society and everything, but now she's like famous. And she harnesses that fame and utilizes it for good. She becomes Pally with Alva Vanderbilt, who helps her run for Senate, because Maggie is very pro-women suffrage. And in Denver, women could vote. See, Colorado was the very first state to give women the right to vote. Some women, in 1893, so like a few years before. But then, the First World War breaks out, and so she postpones her Senate bit. Partially because war, and partially because her sister is a German Baroness, and the Germans were the enemy, so not really a good thing to have on a campaign run, because everyone's just going to be like, oh, look at you, your sister's sleeping with the enemy. So she does what Maggie Brown would do, which is gives the Red Cross the use of her 43-room house so they can use it as a hospital. I'm not calling it a cottage, it's got 43 rooms. So after this, she scoots off to France to set up a relief hospital along with Anne Morgan, the daughter of JP Morgan. Yes, indeed. So this is very much a rich lady putting their money where their mouth is scenario. See, in order to be involved in the committee for the assistance of devastated France, you had to speak fluent French, buy your own uniform from B. Altman, and you also needed to have $1,500 to support yourself when you were there. The goal was to not only aid allied soldiers, but also to rebuild France, okay? So that means investing in agriculture, farms, schools, hospitals, and on top of this, she is organizing female ambulance drivers, nurses, doctors, and food distributors. And so for her work, like I think it's in the 30s, she actually receives the French Legion of Honor, right? She gets the medal. On the 5th of September, 1922, JJ. Brown died suddenly. And ever the classy lady, 53 year old Maggie told newspapers, I've never met a finer, bigger, more worthwhile man than JJ. Brown, which is nice because she really could have been the worst. Like she could have just dragged him, but she didn't. And let's appreciate that. So when JJ. Brown had died, he had moved a lot of money around. So he put stuff in trust for the kids and he put stuff here. And like his estate was so vast, like he owned holdings and he had companies need shares, like everything was so complicated. And he did not leave a will. So it causes contention because there's all this stuff, nobody knows where it's going. So the family have to go to court because the kids, they're not super fond of all the charity stuff their mum is doing because they're worried she's going to spend all their inheritance. Basically, there's a few unhappy thanksgivings, but they do sort it out. And after, what, six years, everything is settled in court and everyone gets the bits. Five years later, so five years after he dies, Maggie was involved in the Titanic monument in Washington, DC. Like she's still doing this stuff, right? And she's doing that, but she's actually also focusing on herself. Like she's getting into the arts and traveling again, but of course disaster follows her because like she's in Florida. She's in Palm Beach when her hotel goes on fire. So she's gone from ice to fire. Like the fact that she wasn't involved in a tornado of some kind, I mean, she was the tornado, but yeah, she's just like all the elements. So there's a fire and she ends up leading people to safety because of course this woman knows where the fire escapes are. She's like, follow me people, I know the way out. And she doesn't stop advocating for other people. Like she drives to Washington to demand that President Calvin College enact the Equal Rights Amendment, but he declines, right?

Speaker 2:
[52:10] Because I love that she just has the audacity to just be like, fix the law.

Speaker 1:
[52:15] And he's like, no. Like I think as well, like on this drive, like she's joined by an exiled Russian princess.

Speaker 2:
[52:25] Like it's just, it's like, it's almost as if you've just picked like improv.

Speaker 1:
[52:31] It's like, it's like Maggie Brown is going to see President Calvin College with an exiled Russian princess and go. Need my friend, need. You want equal rights? Oh, okay. You know, so bad. So anyway, right? She loves her dream, right? She's always wanted to be on the stage, right? So when she was getting her education, when she was learning all of her languages, so like when she had the tutor way back, so they're not only learning, you know, about other cultures and, you know, math equations, but they're also learning like languages and she's doing like society things like learning piano and singing. And when she goes to Europe, she meets Sarah Bernard and she sees Sarah Bernard and gets like acting lessons from her. And like this is like years before. So anyway, now it's all built up to this because when she's 60 years old, she gets on the stage and performs this homage to Sarah Bernhardt, who she had studied under for a while. And you know what?

Speaker 2:
[53:41] People loved it.

Speaker 1:
[53:43] They loved her and it was doing well. Like she's really in her last few years, like really just thriving. You know, she's got all her money, she's doing her charity work, she gets the Legion of Honor. Like she's continuing to fight for women. And then suddenly and without warning, Maggie Brown passes away in her sleep on the 26th of October, 1932. In New York City's Barbizon Hotel at the age of 65. She was laid to rest next to her husband, JJ. Brown at St. Bridget Cemetery in New York. It's called something else now, but it was St. Bridget Cemetery. And so ends the story of the unsinkable Maggie Brown. It's interesting because there's so much information about her and it's so, I wanna call it misogyny coded. Like everything that's written about her is written from this very particular point of view. And like, yeah, she was, you know, a fibber and she exaggerated things. But also like, when you see the society that she was living in and what she grew up in and the fact that she just kept doing stuff, like people like comment on her, her charity work and they're like, ooh, it's, it's very conspicuous. And I'm like, is it? Like the wording, it's very basically old timey version of saying virtue signaling, except she's actually doing the work and she was always doing it. And it just seems like, just because she's not a perfect character, that we should be tearing her down, which just seems to be a common theme when it comes to women in history. What? But anyway, I fucking love Maggie Brown. I love her so much. I do, I think she's amazing. But I do have more Tehanic history for the rest of the month. And I do hope you're going to be very excited because we're taking a very different turn next month. But anyway, follow me on the socials, you know where I am. And yeah, like there's a whole thing with the socials, I'm going to quickly do this now at the end while I'm here, is that, like, liking is not enough now. So, cause I would always like my friend's stuff cause I'm supportive like that. But there's this whole thing, you're like, oh, well, liking doesn't really count. You have to make sure that they watch it all the way through. They have to share it and save it. And I'm like, okay, which is wild. Cause the only videos I save are literally like, here's this recipe I'm going to cook and here's this, you know, artwork that I'm looking for. Like, I don't, I say artwork, it's like DIY stuff as well. And I'm like, oh, I gotta do this at some point. Like, I don't save anything that isn't particularly something I'm going to physically do, which I think is probably the aim of that really. And so I don't get why that's a thing, but apparently that's a thing now. So you gotta like comment and save and share and all that shit now, which is really, really annoying because people don't want to do that. But anyway, if you can, it'll be great because it helps me get seen and it means I can do more work and it means the more work I do, then it means I can always have stuff come out on time. But anyway, it's recommendation time. So for watching, I think you should get a ticket. Like, you're like, to what, Katie? To what? So if you happen to be in Dublin on July 3rd, I think you should get a ticket to see Kinky History with Dr. Esme Louise James.

Speaker 2:
[57:36] She was like, could you share this? And I was like, of course I can, babe, I love you.

Speaker 1:
[57:40] So you should totally, totally do that. For listening, House Tour by Sabrina Carpenter. It's a bop. I don't care, okay? And Reading, Half His Age by Jeanette McCurdy. I will provide you no context. So that's my recommendation time, and I thank you all for listening thus far, even though my voice is clearly still not back properly. So I'll bid you all good day. Adios. Au revoir. Au revoir, my friend. Bye bye.