transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] It's my favorite time of year. Not just a new beginning for the cast of New Jersey. It is Way Day at Wayfair. From April 25th through the 27th, you can score the best deals in home, like up to 80% off with free shipping on everything. Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what you're looking for. From my faves, furniture and decor, to home improvement and outdoor essentials. And it's all on sale during Way Day. And the best part, everything ships fast and free during Way Day. Plus you can shop with Wayfair Verified, aka your shortcut to the good stuff. I have Wayfair pieces throughout my apartment. Two of my favorites are the lighting fixtures in the living room and clothess. Both totally different, as are the styles in each room. The living room, Parisian, mid-century modern, and the clothess pops of color. Wayfair makes it simple to narrow down exactly what works for your style and budget. And they have installation and assembly services available for a truly stress-free experience. Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home. We're talking up to 80 percent off with fast and free shipping on everything. Head to wayfair.com, April 25th through the 27th, to shop Wayday. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair. Every style, every home. I'm a lot like party pizza, sometimes cool to the touch, but always full of flavor.

Speaker 2:
[01:38] I may ask a lot of questions, but it's not my problem that you answered them.

Speaker 1:
[01:42] Oh, I love it a little zesty. I'm here for that energy on a Monday morning. Well, it's technically East Coast time, it's technically Monday afternoon, but who cares? I'm on West Coast time while I live in New York City proper. It's Andy's Girls, it's episode, I think around 785-ish, and we're doing a pod swap. I was just on this guest podcast the other day, and I'm so excited for this convo to continue. So welcome back to Andy's Girls, a host of Reality Life with Kate Casey. Kate Casey herself. Kate, how are we?

Speaker 2:
[02:26] I'm great. How are you?

Speaker 1:
[02:28] I'm so good. I'm raring to go honestly, because I continue my tradition of not watching Housewives Live. So I just started my day in the best possible way, which was watching Rhode Island and Atlanta. But Rhode Island especially, I mean, we're four episodes in, inarguably four perfect episodes. I mean, I don't even know what's happening. It's a thrill. It's genuinely a thrill.

Speaker 2:
[03:03] Yeah. I mean, who would have thought? I would have thought, but not everybody thought. I have long said I think that you need to go into new cities because I'm bored by all. Like Orange County is to me the most boring of all the shows. I was like, I know all these women, their lives don't change that much. I need like a fresh reboot. You have to keep these shows modern. I don't know, having Vicky Goenvilsson back, it's like, are we moving into the new era? Like I need to hear from women who are talking about things that have yet to been covered on this show. Like Kelsey, for example, very interesting, totally different than what you would expect from a woman who's 29. Interesting. I, like you, think about a person's origin story and why they make the decisions that they do, and how that affects their lives. It affects their communication style with their partners, their children, their other friends, how their lives intersect. So, I don't know, if you're not really giving me anything, I lose interest and I feel like for some of these franchises, it's been just the same. New Jersey, I was super bored with that show too.

Speaker 1:
[04:18] How did you feel about the decision to start a new leaf by bringing back Teresa Melissa Dolo?

Speaker 2:
[04:25] I just think that's so stupid. Just why can't you go and get new it? My sister lives in New Jersey. Her town would be fantastic. Just new people, new stories.

Speaker 1:
[04:36] What town is that?

Speaker 2:
[04:38] Rumsan.

Speaker 1:
[04:39] Oh, I don't know Rumsan. Is Rumsan like in the middle of drama?

Speaker 2:
[04:43] It's on the water. So it's like Seabright Rumsan. So you take the Atlantic Islands ferry, and most of the people that work there, if one of the spouses work, it's in Wall Street. You have a lot of stay-at-home parents, kids in sports. It's like suburbia, but like right outside the city. What makes it different, which I think is kind of fun about the Northeast, is it differs from a place like Beverly Hills, and most certainly Orange County, because people are so forward in California about the things they have. Whereas in New Jersey, in a town like hers, you don't know how much someone makes unless maybe you know that their family can pay for full education at school without a scholarship, or there's a building named after them. They're not as openly materialistic as they are in Southern California. I say that because I live here now, and I am constantly perplexed. In Southern California, people will ask you, how much did you pay for your house and do you have a boat? As you know, in the Northeast, that would be completely embarrassing.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] I think if someone in Rhode Island asked if you had a boat, it would be specifically to talk about sailing. It wouldn't be so I know how much money. It would be because quite literally, BCC Ocean State, are you on the WADA? I don't think it would be for the 1099 of it all, for the W2.

Speaker 2:
[06:15] There are so many stories in my sister's town that my eyeballs are falling out of my head. Affairs and embezzlement. All I hear in Orange County, there's so much that goes on here that that's the thing I think. Living here and knowing how people are, the women that they chose for that show and continue to film, is just like there's so much going on here. We have a lot of transplants because of the Palisades fires. Like in the last year, we have a lot of families that are from LA, and they are so different than the OC folks. Like a lot of them are much more career driven. This is like I constantly feel like OC is like, specifically where I live. It's a lot of people that have generational wealth and are mailbox money people. So they live in a resort town and they have a resort town identity. So they're disinterested in people who have jobs because they have nothing in common with them. And they don't, it's like they can't compete with them because everything is about competition here. Because the wealth comes from the grandparent or the great grandparent. So they're insecure when somebody comes from out of town and that person has some sort of job. That's interesting. Also, people don't ask questions here. Like on the Northeast, okay, where did you go to school? And where do you work? And what is your business about? Oh, you said you were one of three kids. Tell me about your siblings and where did you grow up? And what did your dad do? People ask a lot of questions. It's not like an interrogation, it's just like a practice. We're really interested in other people. We're interesting and interested. I say somebody who grew up in Philly, right? But in Southern California, nobody asks questions because they're all so self-consumed. So what happens in that environment? You have a lot of con artists because you can make up anything and no one will ask you questions. So if you drive a fancy car, they just believe that you are the son of the Sultan of Brunei, and that you have this business and that they just believe it all. So it's a breeding ground for con artists.

Speaker 1:
[08:30] I mean, HSA, that does sound a little interesting.

Speaker 2:
[08:35] No, but that's what I'm like, why can't they cast people who personify that? Mysterious, where does your money come from? And also the backstabbing in certain social circles, because everything is about how do you get ahead? People use people here as utility in a different way than they would back East. Like here currency is, do you have a second house in Palm Springs or Hawaii? And if so, can we use it? Versus East Coast, it's like, who do you know who can get me ahead in business? So it's different.

Speaker 1:
[09:15] I feel like we have seen some examples of that on OC. I mean, we had someone served eviction papers on Can't Roller, their child.

Speaker 2:
[09:22] I know, but that was so long ago.

Speaker 1:
[09:24] 2008, that was like the market crashing. So when it comes to maybe that lack of curiosity and also community slash culture, tell me.

Speaker 2:
[09:36] And there's no community because especially like in the coastal towns, because it's a lot of people who grew up here. So they are only interested in the people that they grew up with, or that they went to USC with and we were in a sorority with. So for example, I moved here a while ago. I'm not from here. I didn't grow up here. The only way I was able to make friends is when I had children, because then you're stuck at the same preschool and that was the first time that I actually met friends. It's impossible or I should say it was impossible socially to be an outsider. And that's what makes this show different or it could make the show different now, is that it's changing because we have so many people who are coming from outside of Orange County. So that's the story I would tell if I was a producer, is the fish out of water component. Like if you're from New York or LA and you move to a place where materialism is everything. So that's kind of awkward for people that are outsiders. And how you infiltrate social structures in a place where they reject outsiders.

Speaker 1:
[10:44] So why do you think production has held so strong in trying to make, not like a round peg fit into a square hole or the reverse, but trying to make people work with the existing cast? I mean, we have the camera back.

Speaker 2:
[11:02] I don't know. I guess I'm under the assumption that they have these focus group meetings and maybe they get the idea that people really are invested in these women and want to see them for the rest of time. I just don't understand how that's possible. And I think that Rhode Island is a great example of that. People want new and fresh and interesting stories. They also want people who actually spend time with each other off the clock. I don't know, like I do believe that Gina and Emily are really close friends. But I think the other ones just think about each other as coworkers. In the same way I think Dorit thinks about the women on that show as coworkers. I don't see them ever spending time off the clock.

Speaker 1:
[11:49] I also though wonder, I mean listen, with the response that is somewhere nearing ecstasy that a lot of members of the Bravo community have for Rhode Island, Orange County is quite literally going into its 20th season. So the vibrancy of Rhode Island, all fine and good, almost feels sort of miraculous this far down the Housewives path to feel like we're kind of reinventing the wheel a little bit. But season 20 of Orange County, like I hear your argument, why not totally reset for 20? But I also think they've been through this for 7,000 seasons so far, a feeling of exhaustion is somewhat realistic at a certain point, no?

Speaker 2:
[12:34] Well, I think maybe there's this, well, I think in Unscripted TV there has been a fear of making risky choices because they need to make the money back from COVID. So they use IP that already exists, they do a lot of reunion shows. Over the last few years there's just been a complete fear of risk taking. Real Housewives of Rhode Island is a complete risk. So instead of resetting Orange County, why don't we bring somebody back for nostalgia's sake? Maybe we'll get someone who just doesn't push them too much and we can just throw out easy episodes. It's much more risky to go, okay, let's find a group of women who are 15 years younger than the current cast and film them. And also ensure that all of these people have relationships that existed before we started the casting process, that they're all married to people who are open to the idea of being on film. Now, my argument would be there's no better place to find supportive partners than probably Orange County. Because a lot of them, it's generational wealth, so they don't have to confirm with their boss over at PIMCO, hey, can I be on camera? Because they spent a lot of their time on their sailboat, you know, drinking my ties and just waiting for the check to come in. There's no better place. And also, I think this is like a breeding ground for influencers too. I mean, you've seen the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives cast now are in Orange County. They're like living here for weeks. It's because we have this huge swell of influencers. That to me is why Amanda would be a better fit in Orange County because she's more of like an influencer kind of vibe. I think she'd be much happier here and she would fit in better. So to me, another funny thing that they should be chasing, if you had younger women who are influencers or influencers adjacent, how that affects social situations because currency is how many followers you have versus maybe in New York, it's about how much money do you have. Everything in OC is for the group of women in that specific age group is like, how many followers do you have? I feel like that's the modern story they should be chasing. Vicki Gunvalson, what's there? What's there?

Speaker 1:
[15:06] I do think there's a feeling of nostalgia. I mean, when I saw her from my TV, get that orange, I was like, good for her, because we know she wanted it for so long. It does feel like, no, really, I felt so happy for her because she wanted it. And there is, I mean, she's-

Speaker 2:
[15:26] I learn a lot of things in life. Should I be on a TV show? Come on.

Speaker 1:
[15:30] Listen, I think if season-

Speaker 2:
[15:31] It was most interesting in the early seasons, because Orange County is about suburbia. And she was a suburban mother who was trying to run her business and the social dynamics between herself and Laurie, and how Laurie then ended up marrying somebody who had more money than her, and that how the class disparity, that to me was very interesting and funny, and the way she was trying to parent these children who absolutely couldn't stand her. That was when it worked. But in the latter years, I just think that we could find people that are much more interesting. And I know I'm coming after her right now, but I'm just saying, for somebody who spends their entire work week, their life, devoted to unscripted TV and watching well beyond Bravo, the success of other shows outside of Bravo are shows that really continue to modernize, to bring in new cast members, and to chase stories that are of the time. And I think that Bravo makes a big mistake by not doing that.

Speaker 1:
[16:36] Do you think that's also production specific? Isn't there a little bit of a connective thread on the west coast of the shows that keep done fucking up?

Speaker 2:
[16:47] Well, it's not even just that. It could be a show runner. It could be a network executive who, I feel like for OC, it's more of a network executives that have a soft spot for the olden days. But the things that were so good about that show were really in the first few seasons.

Speaker 1:
[17:06] And then how do you compare that criticism to what's happening now with Beverly Hills? Like how would you judge the season of BH by that standard?

Speaker 2:
[17:17] I think it was pretty boring. Okay. So a difference between OC and Beverly Hills, and Alex Baskin talked about this on my podcast many years ago. He said, even though those two places are within like an hour drive of each other, they're culturally so different because OC lives a little bit louder on camera, and they'll confront situations. Beverly Hills is much more contained. They don't want to put things out on the table. They're much more worried about the reputation. Containment, I guess, would be the operative word. So I think you need to bring in people. Okay. When I think about Beverly Hills and where we are right now, the industry is changing. And so people who were like when Kyle Richards was growing up, like the movie stars had the most power. And that's different now in Hollywood. The people who have a lot of power are the people who have YouTube fame. YouTube is much more of a conversation starter or a bargaining chip. The success of a YouTuber versus somebody who is like on a sitcom because like sitcoms are almost going away too. And because of the COVID and also the lack of green lighting projects and both scripted and unscripted, people have moved more to online. And so I think like you have to have people that sort of represent the city in which you're focusing on, which is obviously a company town, industry town. But maybe if you got people who maybe they were the mother of a manager of a young YouTuber or influencer. Like that to me is like an example of making it more modern. So you want to have somebody like Kyle because she's lived there her entire life and she has all of these relationships. And I do think the fact that her husband had this real estate firm was interesting because that gives some proximity to a lot of stars. But also the relationship between Kathy's husband and Mauricio was also pretty interesting as well. So that made sense at the time and maybe that might change as, Kyle's kids are now leaving for college and I know she wants to spend more time in Nashville. She's probably not there as much. But also that's kind of representative of the industry. And a lot of people, like my niece is working on a film right now and they're filming it in England because of tax issues. So a lot of the filming of television shows from game shows to movies are filmed in Ireland. So there are less productions that are being filmed in LA. You still need to go to LA because that's where the agents are and the big events. But the industry itself has changed and I think you need to adapt that. So then you have to go back to the constant question and that's what I would probably do as a producer every year for Beverly Hills. Like, okay, who lives in this city? What is this city about? Because the city is always another character in the show. So for like New York, when they rebooted it the last time and they got a lot of influencers, I didn't know if that was really the best fit because when I think of influencers, I don't think of New York. I do think of Wall Street. My sister, like I said, lives outside of the city and that is a big thing. I've never understood why they didn't try. Maybe they did try to cast but didn't work out. I know that they looked at Anthony Scaramucci's wife for a hot minute. She would have been great. I think getting some, because Anthony Scaramucci is finance. Now, he worked in the White House for a hot minute, but his background is finance. My friend actually worked for him. So I think you got to have somebody who is someone like a woman who works on Wall Street or is married to somebody who works on Wall Street because that to me is more of a New York story.

Speaker 1:
[21:12] But don't you think they went after that? I mean, I don't think their goal was like an influencer, as derogatory as sometimes people tend to use that phrase. But that is its own economy now. That's like a genuine economy in and of itself, even if it doesn't echo the spirit of New York, of old school New York, classic New York.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] But if you were going to film a show in a city, you have to think about who has the most power in that city. I don't think influencers have the most power. You can have some on the show, but you can't lean totally into that. For example, if you make a show about Miami, which they did, what's their industry? Like real estate, tourism. You got to get women who, like Marisol Patton, she knows everybody because she had a PR firm. That makes sense for Miami. Miami is flashy. That makes sense. If you make a show about, like if they made a show about Austin, Texas, for example, you're going to have to do technology because that's like the big new thing. You're going to have to have podcasters because that's the big new thing there. You have to think about who lives in that city. Because otherwise, you may as well call it the Real Housewives of Sedona, the Real Housewives of Topeka.

Speaker 1:
[22:32] But then what happens when that access doesn't match up with someone's like charisma factor? Surely, they've gone after the kind of...

Speaker 2:
[22:41] And you can't do the show. And you can't do it. It's not interesting.

Speaker 1:
[22:44] Well, do we know? I mean, listen, I would assume then that you don't love Carol's return. Or do you? Because she sort of speaks to bridging the gap and also a very New York spirit. Like, Carol feels New York.

Speaker 2:
[23:00] She feels very New York to me, absolutely, yes. Like, sort of, she kind of bridges the socialite and media world. I mean, she did work at ABC News, so she has relationships with people in the media. Of course, the Kennedy part, I'm sure that factored in a lot to it. When I think of New York, I think of Jackie Kennedy. I think of Jack Schlossberg. I think of Caroline Kennedy, of course.

Speaker 1:
[23:26] Ninety-one percent of dog parents say their pup is an important part of the family. And if you ask my mother, the Tobes, Chester, our seventeen and a half year old Shishipu, is her favorite child. And if anyone gets being dog obsessed, it's Ollie. They're relentless about delivering the best food and experience for you and your dog. And they give you a way to check in on their health over and over and over again. There is so much that sets Ollie apart. Ollie's fresh recipes are developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. We're talking the best meals with the highest quality ingredients. And the experience is curated to your dog. From the moment you start your subscription, everything is tailored for your pup. The meals are perfectly portioned and you get a pup tanner and scoop for easy storing and serving. And I haven't even mentioned health check-ins through their app to check in on your dog's health with real vets. Chester is 17 and a half and obsessed with his food from Ollie. So much so that when he turns the corner after an afternoon walk with the tobes, he is sprinting back to the house excited for his next meal. Get ready for both you and your pup to be obsessed. Head to ollie.com/andysgirls and tell them about your dog and use code Andys Girls to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer an obsession guarantee. If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's ollie.com/andysgirls and enter code Andys Girls to get 60% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. I am all about a new beginning and not just because the Real Housewives of Rhode Island is finally here. It's taken me a minute to redesign my apartment into a space that truly feels like me. And the last step was decorating my bedroom. There are so many different options out there. It was hard to narrow things down, which is why I am so thankful for Bowlen Branch. Bowlen Branch creates everything you need to make your bed feel finished. Signature sheets, supportive pillows, cozy blankets and luxurious comforters, all crafted from high quality organic materials. Most people building a new bed start with two sheet sets in a comforter and then layer in a waffle blanket for texture and extra comfort. The result is a bed that looks beautiful and feels amazing the moment you get into it. That was absolutely my experience. I have the Signature Hems sheet set and the waffle bed blanket, both in the color pewter, which is this beautiful, almost light, creamy gray. My sleep has gotten better. The room looks incredible. Tofu has actually claimed the blanket as his own. And PS, the sheets have gotten even softer after washing. Upgrade your sleep with Bowl and Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlinbranch.com/andysgirls with code andysgirls. That's bowlinbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com/andysgirls. And use code andysgirls to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. This is Sarah Galli from the podcast Andy's Girls. Grief doesn't keep a calendar. Anxiety doesn't clock out after five. Depression doesn't care if it's your busy season. Support can still fit into your life. With Grow, you can find a therapist who meets you where you are. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. The single most important decision that I have made to better my life was starting therapy. It's helped me both better understand and communicate with family members, friends. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over a hundred insurance plans and sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com/let'sgotoday to get started. That's growtherapy.com/let'sgo. growtherapy.com/let'sgo. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. It does feel like in some of these franchises, specifically the ones that have been around for a zillion years, there is a little bit of like an inflection point here of how we're moving forward. I do think that the production part of it, the idea of like maybe some of these personal individual relationships factors, but like Kyle, for example, I don't think she drives the story forward. I think what she brings to the show is her history of being on it, but I think she's actually been a hindrance for a plot for several seasons.

Speaker 2:
[29:00] So that's true.

Speaker 1:
[29:02] Like with some of this, I don't think you would have the same issue with Vicky. I also do though understand the perspective that, you know, for everything that exists between Gina and Emily, the relationship with several members of the cast either feels inflexible because there's just genuine hatred, like between Tamra and Shannon, or it doesn't feel like the show can move forward as a group of friends versus a group of people who've made history. You know, like it's hard to make a show out of that. It's not impossible, but I don't think the issue is Vicki returning. I think the issue is who here is willing to genuinely like do this thing and figure out a way to set some of this aside and move forward. But like maybe that's just unrealistic when you've been on the show for this long.

Speaker 2:
[29:55] For somebody like Vicki, she historically has said bad shit about all of the women there. So why are we led to believe that she has a genuine interest? She is the most unlikable person because she doesn't give anybody a moment of interest. It's all about her. She's not interested in other people. I don't. Okay. I should say it this way.

Speaker 1:
[30:17] I'm giving eyes.

Speaker 2:
[30:18] I think the best cast members are interesting and interested. You have to be interested in other people because it creates conversation and movement. But if you are completely disinterested and you think that you run the show, it creates a barrier and I don't think it makes the show flow well.

Speaker 1:
[30:39] I don't think you're wrong in saying that. I also though think from a character perspective, think of the number of unlikable people who have become iconic housewives in many ways because of that unlikable nature. You need someone who is willing to show sometimes incredibly ugly aspects of themselves, self-sacrificing, shall we say, for the betterment of our entertainment every Thursday at 9. You know, like, Wiki is not an outsider in that.

Speaker 2:
[31:11] A personal story. Like, what's her story? She goes to work at the insurance company. We don't, she doesn't film with her children. You know, like, do I see her friends? I don't think she has many friends. There's nothing there. I've already seen her story play out.

Speaker 1:
[31:28] It's, I'm fascinated by the fact that the criticism is focused on Vicki, which I also understand. Like, I get it. I don't agree with it, but I completely understand it. But not Kyle or Teresa or, well, there's really nobody left in New York, but maybe it's not one or the other. It's all of them.

Speaker 2:
[31:45] I'm totally bored by Teresa. Totally bored.

Speaker 1:
[31:47] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[31:47] I'm totally bored by Kyle. I am, I am totally bored. I'm just saying I understand why they have kept her. Because she has, when they think of Beverly Hills, for a long time that, you know, if you make a show about Beverly Hills, you have to think about who has the most power here. And she had relationships with people who had power. You can't get Julia Roberts on the show, but okay, you can get the Hilton family because Paris Hilton has an enormous amount of power. So I get that. I'm not saying I find her to be, like, her stories, like, so compelling and interesting. I don't. I think all of those women who have been on the show from the very beginning are not interesting. I think you need to have new housewives.

Speaker 1:
[32:37] That has to be tough, though, from a network perspective, especially when you think of New York.

Speaker 2:
[32:43] I think they make it tough. I think they make it tough. And what I think this creates is a lot are a lot of cast members who then believe that they are like, I believe it should be like Menudo where you just like swap out people. I think when you don't do that, you create these monsters who kind of terrorize in some ways the other cast members. And they believe the show should be centered around them. And then the egos and then, and then I think it probably from a financial perspective, the disparity in pay. If you've had somebody on for 20 years, you have to pay them an enormous amount of money, right? And then you get somebody and they're not going to make real money maybe till like season three. I think it's a colossal, it is a clusterfuck of issues when you keep someone on too long. Think of like corporate America. Is it a good thing to have the same COO for 20 years? Maybe not.

Speaker 1:
[33:46] But isn't there an affection that comes with like working?

Speaker 2:
[33:51] You know what? That everybody in the office is like, oh, here's Kevin. Kevin's been here for 20 years. Kevin doesn't know how to use Excel spreadsheets and doesn't understand the internet. Kevin's fun because he gets drunk at the parties at Christmas time. But is Kevin effective to the company?

Speaker 1:
[34:09] Oh my God, I hated Excel.

Speaker 2:
[34:11] Does Kevin understand how to bring in new customers? Or is Kevin just really good friends with the CEO and they go play golf together?

Speaker 1:
[34:22] But if we went with like term limits, we wouldn't have had the many different interesting dynamic generations of New York up until season 12-13.

Speaker 2:
[34:35] But maybe we didn't get a lot of unbelievable other things because of it.

Speaker 1:
[34:41] Yeah, but like six of one half-dozen of the other, we don't know what we're going to have, except that what we were served was very good. Up until the end, like the end was bad. Like 12-13 was, if I'm remembering those numbers correctly, which I'm sure I'm not, was not good. Like they couldn't hold a final reunion before they all got.

Speaker 2:
[35:04] Think of it this way. In 2026, Love is Blind is kicking the ass of a show like Real Housewives of New Jersey. It's, you can't even compare it. And if you're a network executive, you sleep with one eyeball opening, open. Like if you work for Peacock or Bravo and you're like, how do we get new viewers? It's not keeping the same people all the time.

Speaker 1:
[35:29] But Love is Blind is showing such obvious weak spots because, you know, it's a huge hit. I don't disagree that it's a huge hit, but the casting process, it's become so watered down and so bad. No, it's great. No way. But I think the toxicity that exists, the quality of the people overall, especially the men that they're casting on this show, has become worse as every season has gone on because the person's interest in, like, quote unquote, finding love has changed. You're trying to find love for your Instagram.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] No one is actually looking at Love is Blind. And, like, I mean, there are certainly people that have gotten married. I mean, Daniel and Karen.

Speaker 1:
[36:13] Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[36:15] But I don't think people are watching it in the same way they don't watch The Bachelor and go, oh, this is going to work out. They want to be entertained. And when they watch Love is Blind, they think about when they were dating, or people who are dating are like, oh, my God, this reminds me of the date I went on last week. It's keeping up with the times. It's culturally very relevant. Real Housewives of New Jersey with two sister-in-laws who've been having the same fight for 15 years is no longer culturally relevant. It's not creating new conversations. It's not creating new viewership. The viewership of Bravo continued like we're aging that way. You're not getting new people.

Speaker 1:
[36:58] Couldn't you though make the argument that prior to watching the Miami reboot, this won't work, this won't work because you're trying to mix different generations of housewives, people totally new to the franchise, and people who are returning, and then from, I mean, I know it's now on pause, which is a national tragedy. It really, really worked. Like, isn't it possible that New Jersey could really work?

Speaker 2:
[37:25] No, it's too stale. You know what? Miami would work if you film more with Larsa's Kids. That's a whole new generation. Have Larsa's Kids, you know, film a little bit with them, and then do a spinoff with Larsa's Kids and their friend group in Miami. Something like that, where you're bringing in more people. Now, somebody would go, okay, have a show about Gia. Now, I think people are so sick of that family because they've watched them for so many years.

Speaker 1:
[37:50] Next Gen, NYC, was a huge, huge hit.

Speaker 2:
[37:54] Wait, two things. That was an ensemble show where she had to, she was around all the other people. It wasn't the Judas show. That's what I'm saying. The Judas show in suburban New Jersey, I don't think that's going to be a big hit. I just don't. And number two, a giant hit. Bravo is still pretty niche if you think about it. When you compare to Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and Love is Blind, and like some of these other shows are mammoth hits.

Speaker 1:
[38:25] But also Secret Lives is like crumbling right now.

Speaker 2:
[38:29] Oh, that's going to continue to be hot.

Speaker 1:
[38:31] It will continue to be a hit, but it's hugely lost its footing with everything that's happening with Taylor and Dakota.

Speaker 2:
[38:38] Oh no, people still watch it. They love it.

Speaker 1:
[38:40] People will still watch it and love it. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying, I don't know that we're going to be thinking about Secret Lives of Mormon Wives celebrating its 20th anniversary unless they continue filming three seasons a year.

Speaker 2:
[38:51] Yeah, they'll do maybe like 10 seasons and then there'll be something new. That's what I think you have to do. That's the reality right now. People have a very short attention span and episodes are going to have to be shorter and they're all going to be on YouTube or streaming. And these other, I just don't think the Housewives of yesteryear are going to be as watchable in the next two years. You got to get new people, new stories. That's what I'm just telling you. How are you going to convince a 26-year-old to watch a show about 60-year-old women in Orange County, whose lives are basically like, let's go out to a lunch and argue about, I don't even know what they would argue about anymore.

Speaker 1:
[39:39] But I'm not worried about a 26-year-old at this point, because I do still think the audience for Bravo is like an advertiser's dream. Is it not? A majority woman audience? And I don't know, the demo, like the peak demo. I can think of the peak demo for podcasts about housewives.

Speaker 2:
[39:56] I know, but are people, but I don't think they have the numbers that they, their numbers are just not what they used to be.

Speaker 1:
[40:05] I know, but we're also 20 years in. I don't, I mean, and then I think of like, kids these days, like, embracing 90s core. I don't know that it's so wild.

Speaker 2:
[40:15] It's not gonna be like that.

Speaker 1:
[40:17] But I don't think, I mean, the idea of breaking housewives to fit whatever cultural zeitgeist-y, you know, current philosophy in reality TV works. I don't know that that's necessary. I think it's-

Speaker 2:
[40:31] I wanna see moms in their 30s. Like, I like- I like to show up at that.

Speaker 1:
[40:35] But that's different from change- totally, okay, great, great, great, great. But that's different from, like, breaking the structure of housewives to fit whatever is working.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] You do Real Housewives, but with younger women in a different city.

Speaker 1:
[40:47] I think that's what's happening with Rhode Island, and it's spectacular for Bravo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[40:52] So that's what they need to do. New cities, new women, younger women. That's it. I don't think investing in the old stories are working. So to your original question for New Jersey, bringing back Melissa and Teresa is circling the wheel. I'm so over that feud and that family and their dynamics. Unless we find out what really is going on with Louis, maybe. But other than that, I just feel like I'm exhausted by that.

Speaker 1:
[41:22] Yeah, that gives me the creeps, honestly.

Speaker 2:
[41:23] Do I really believe that they are really like this family? They all come together now, and they all love each other suddenly? No, I don't.

Speaker 1:
[41:31] I don't know how much of it I need to believe. I just want good TV.

Speaker 2:
[41:35] I can recommend a lot.

Speaker 1:
[41:38] I mean, I have so much affection. I feel like I'm riding high watching episode 4 of Rhori.

Speaker 2:
[41:48] Yes, but I don't think you're going to feel the same way when you watch the season of Housewives of OC.

Speaker 1:
[41:55] No, I don't feel good about season 20.

Speaker 2:
[41:56] I feel like Salt Lake City is getting real stale to me too.

Speaker 1:
[42:01] Yes, because I do think that Salt Lake City has been forced into this mess of its own making, which was, when it happened, iconic, which is the idea of working toward these big, big, big bangs of drama and conflict that sort of silo the quality of the show from itself. The last year's finale was tough to watch because it felt like women were just trying to force themselves to scream and even some of the conflict and animosity with Meredith and the rest of the cast, I was trying to understand where a lot of that upset was coming from and it felt confusing. It didn't feel accessible to me. I'm okay if you hate somebody and I don't get why, as long as I feel like it's somewhat natural, but also irony alert for me to be like, that episode of Housewives didn't feel natural. But I just want to watch good TV. I feel like I'm satiated in so many ways from Housewives. It still to me brings me at points in which I'm surrounded by darkness, genuine, much needed levity and light. We're still finding ways to have it. My issue with Season 20, which I've said on the pod is I feel tough about it because at the center of it is the Tamra, Shannon, and now Vicki of it all. And I just don't think that from the hints that Tamra has been giving, it feels like we're sliding right back into what's happened the last two seasons, which is a lot of harsh.

Speaker 2:
[43:37] They all hate it, like Liz and I live here. Which is why I don't think Vicki is the issue. I hear what people say. I'm in it. They all despise one another. If they appear to be getting along on camera, it's the same thing with Melissa and Teresa. They all despise one another. So it's performative to do these scenes where like, oh, the gang's back together. I think it reminds us all of the people we know from like school or community where you're like, cut the shit. You two hate each other.

Speaker 1:
[44:08] I would just be worried if Orange County potentially reinvents for season 21 that it becomes Selling Sunset, which I enjoyed the first couple seasons and then I was like, I'm done. No, what?

Speaker 2:
[44:20] No. That's what it's like here. Sorry. That's what it's like here.

Speaker 1:
[44:26] But it was so over, it was so internally over self-produced.

Speaker 2:
[44:31] No, but I'm saying it's like-

Speaker 1:
[44:32] But that's life?

Speaker 2:
[44:34] People in bonkers outfits and it's all about what you have and what you show. That's what it is like here. That's why I'm always like, what is the show that they have? This is not what people are like here.

Speaker 1:
[44:47] Man, that's kind of a downer and I mean that, I mean we will walk toward the light. I do want to get your thoughts on-

Speaker 2:
[44:59] They're a land.

Speaker 1:
[45:00] On Rhode Island and some other stuff. But oh man, I mean, am I just being too overly optimistic?

Speaker 2:
[45:13] I do.

Speaker 1:
[45:13] I love it.

Speaker 2:
[45:14] I love it. You don't want it to go because it filled you in times of your life where you had a much needed escape route that needed to be put in place and it was comforting, but it just doesn't, I don't think it works in the same way it did 15 to 20 years ago.

Speaker 1:
[45:36] I think it works in a different way. Because I think what you and I are saying actually a lot of similar stuff, like you and I think both find a lot of enjoyment in Rhode Island, right? Maybe we both thought Miami was great. There's two.

Speaker 2:
[45:50] Miami is my actual favorite. I think that show is beautifully shot. I find each woman's story to be incredibly compelling. I find they're all super passionate and open. And I love that. I love Real Housewives of Rhode Island because all of, I love the focus on culture. I think that's what Miami and Rhode Island do better than other shows. Culture is kind of missing in a lot of these shows. And I think the things that I've loved about Housewives is getting a window into stories that don't exist in television shows and in movies because women of a certain age are sort of cast aside and forgotten about. So, I like Miami and Rhode Island because there are stories that I have not really seen before. Like I said with Kelsey, okay, a woman who has this agreement with a man where she lives in his home and she's then accepting that this is not going to end in a marriage proposal and putting aside your career because you're being taken care of. And what are the ramifications of that? I love that. That's a conversation. We could have an hour conversation on Kelsey alone. I love Miami. Alexia to me is one of the greatest housewives of all time. Because her story is so layered and she continues to evolve and she has conversations about herself that are uncomfortable. I don't see that in other franchises. I love that Rhode Island, this discussion which I'm sure is percolating now about Rula and her husband. If you were somebody who was the mistress, and then you become the wife, and then he has another mistress, that's a whole conversation starter about, should you be surprised by that? Do you have a right if you have violated somebody else's marriage in order for your own needs? I just don't think, I keep going back to OC, but the conversations that have come out of last season, we couldn't do that. I have an hour conversation on one housewife and a story. There are not many layers to it. I think it's because they've probably bled for 20 years. They have given us everything they can, but I don't think there's much more to give. Whereas, I'm excited about Rhode Island because I get the origin story. I get to learn about who they are and why they look at the lens through which they look at life. But then the added component of, oh, they have pre-existing relationships. What was their relationship like five years ago or 10 years ago? Like finding out that Rula's husband's ex-wife was the Spanish teacher. Like, give me more. Put it into my veins. Love it.

Speaker 1:
[49:07] Hola.

Speaker 2:
[49:07] Yeah. So that's why I think shows like Miami and Rhode Island are really good.

Speaker 1:
[49:16] What did you feel? We will get more granular about Rhori, but what did you feel about the decision to put Miami on pause? And do you think there's any way that the network regrets that?

Speaker 2:
[49:27] I think they did immediately. You do?

Speaker 1:
[49:30] Because we freaked out? We freaked the fuck out?

Speaker 2:
[49:32] Yeah, because everybody freaked out. And they, I think that historically, they do take viewer reaction to heart. I think they are very good about that. They'll kind of acknowledge it in their own way and make changes. Yes, I think also not a good look when you've got a cast that's all immigrants. Not a good look to swipe it off. Such a culturally rich cast, no, they have to bring it back. And the fact that Lisa goes to prison. She went to day camp.

Speaker 1:
[50:08] She went to day camp. Yeah, but the fact that Adriana and Alexia were there with Local TV that was doing like a super close up on their reactions greeting her outside. I said, this is cinema. This is cinema.

Speaker 2:
[50:20] So Marisol, she's really good friends with all of them. I mean, pretty much all of them, they're like at her house during the week. You don't get that in other shows too. Yeah. So anyway, I think they'll bring it back. But I think they need to get Larsa's kids. Talk about culturally relevant. Those kids are like, really, like they all have really interesting stories and it's NBA players, and the daughter is like an influencer. Plus, do you know how many people are clamoring to get their kids into University of Miami right now? Like that's the hot school. It's a whole experience when you go there. It's like bottle service. It's like a whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[51:03] What? Oh, it's like an algebra? What the are you talking about? Bottle service. At the club? College is the club?

Speaker 2:
[51:11] When I was in college, we would go to like a dive bar. When you go to University of Miami, they're going to clubs with bottle service. Like we're talking mega money. I want a family that has moved to Miami because their kid goes to University of Miami and they are in the scene. Like I want that.

Speaker 1:
[51:29] Oh my God, that sounds like a nightmare.

Speaker 2:
[51:31] I know Alex Earl also she went to University of Miami like this. This is the stuff people are talking about in the world.

Speaker 1:
[51:39] Wow. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[51:41] I'm not saying I could help the network. I'm just saying I can help the network.

Speaker 1:
[51:48] Kate Casey, consultant at large. I'm here for it. I'm really here for it. Listen, there's so much for us to discuss. We need to just like canoe on over to the Ocean State because I need to chat with you about Rula, the Spanish teacher. Did you watch Alisha on Watch What Happens?

Speaker 2:
[52:09] I think I saw clips of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:12] Oh, first off, oh my God. And honestly, having her there with Angela Stangela was literally so perfect because their energies are just so great. But like her talking more about this woman and the car stuff-

Speaker 2:
[52:27] By the way, the fact that she said in the episode, yeah, I'm not married and I have to ask, like we're not legally married and I have to ask him for money. And I hate that I'm in this financial position. God bless. God bless. A lot of women probably are in similar positions and she just spoke for them. To be that open, to put yourself out there. And then of course I'm like, oh God, I hope she gets a ton of opportunities out of this and then she can build her financial nest egg and she doesn't have to rely on this dodo bird, like, yes.

Speaker 1:
[52:58] Yeah, except on Watch What Happens, it felt like she kind of resigned herself and was apologizing for wanting some sort of financial equality, equity or stake in her relationship.

Speaker 2:
[53:09] He's like, he treats me well. I'm sure. So then I'm like, oh, what's happening behind the scenes? You know what he's saying to her? He goes, do you know how much I spend on those goddamn dolls? Do you know it's true?

Speaker 1:
[53:25] She said she has 100. I said, you go girl. Well, I want to see that attic. Talking about Alicia and her husband, I am so interested in getting your thoughts because from the through line of examining women, let alone women getting somewhere closer to a woman of a certain age, and also this idea of being a stay-at-home girlfriend or wife, and the way that that person's value is so, seemingly in some of these dynamics just constantly reinforced as not enough or nothing. It's tough to watch those moments with Alicia because then again, that book end, that moment from Watch What Happens, maybe I'm reading too much into it, and I get why she would say that, but I felt like the dream that she had for herself, that so many of her co-stars, especially Liz, were pushing forward of, you deserve more. Let's practice you talking to your fiancé, partner about the ways that he should respect you. It feels like she felt, well, I've gotten this other dream, Rhori. I don't need to have a quality in my relationship. I felt so sad seeing that moment, especially because she's such a bright light.

Speaker 2:
[54:46] He's probably says to her all the time, I have friends whose husbands do this to them, and they constantly have to remind that, aren't you so lucky that I give you this lifestyle? Aren't you so lucky? When you hear, we can't forget this. When you are in a situation where somebody has the same language over and over and over, sometimes people feel so defeated, they accept it. It's like being in a cult. But if your spouse has to tell you, and you don't have any financial independence, you are reliant on them because they are the one who is in charge of the finances or if you leave them, then you have to go find a job, that can be paralyzing for a lot of women. He probably is saying to her all the time, look, look at this life that you have. Look at this great house. Look at all of this. Why would you want anything different? Then she's like, yeah, you're right. It is okay that I have to ask you for $2,000 a week so that I can go shopping for my daughter. Yeah, you're right. Do you start to believe it?

Speaker 1:
[55:56] I mean, is it possible we could ridicule him enough into respecting what his for all intents and purposes, like wife, what his partner is bringing to the table? I feel insulted on her behalf every time I hear her talk about it.

Speaker 2:
[56:13] I know, but he probably grew up in a community where all of the men think like that because they were raised like that. They were raised by dads who said, just find a woman who gets food on the table. Find a woman who will look nice if you have to go to a party. And so, it's just like cyclical. It's just we go in circles and the patterns. So, I just think also when you are in a community and all the spouses are kind of like that, you kind of accept like, oh, this is just the way it is. The best thing that these women can do is be part of the show together because now they're going to be receiving DMs from other people outside of their bubble about opportunities, what they deserve, what they see in them, that maybe they don't see in themselves. I suspect that in a few years, a lot of these relationships may not be together because they suddenly see a version of themselves that they maybe cast to the side or maybe didn't see because the person that they're with have made them believe this narrative that the woman should be sort of an accessory to the husband.

Speaker 1:
[57:25] I'd like to see the husbands put some pressure on him. I mean, Jerry's not acting that way toward Liz. Gary's not acting that way toward Joellen. Ashley and Jared have seemingly a nice partnership. Kelsey is an outlier specific to this dynamic, but I think there was more awareness of how their agreement would work.

Speaker 2:
[57:50] She's going to make money and then she's going to be going on media opportunities and getting all this attention, and he's going to go, I don't like this. I don't like this. It's changing the dynamics of the relationship that they had some sort of agreement when they got together. He's the star because he's got the pizza business in town. You know what I mean? It reminds me a lot of Simon and Tamara. He started to resent the attention that she was receiving, and then suddenly she's making more money than he did. Remember, he worked at Fletcher Motors, Fletcher Jones Motors, and he acted like he was this big baller, like his job wasn't like blow your hair back, but he made her feel like that. He made her feel like he was the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Then she's making more money than him, and she's getting all of this attention, and she gets all of these media opportunities. I remember I interviewed her one time and I said, I'll never forget you were on the Today Show, and it was like with Kathy, Lee, and Hoda. It was maybe she was filling in for Hoda or something. Anyway, she was there, and they panned the camera to the side where Simon was, and he was giddy trying to get camera time too. I thought, oh, okay. She didn't realize that at the time that he loves attention, and he's starting to resent her because she gets more attention than him, and then on top of making more money. How emasculating.

Speaker 1:
[59:20] And are you thinking about that with Bill and Alicia or Kelsey and Redacted?

Speaker 2:
[59:26] Oh, I think that with Alicia and her husband. Redacted? No, I think Redacted is probably the kind of guy who's like since they're not married and she was just like the trophy girlfriend, he's like, oh yeah, yeah, I was such a baller. I had this broad living at my house for like 10 years and she would do whatever I wanted, like I bet that's a redacted deal. And then Rosie and her husband, now they seem like he's, although he does perform in that Frank Sinatra tribute band, so maybe he is a bit of a ham too. He could turn into a gorga. Again, we only know four episodes of these people. We may find out more people or more about them as, we have a very limited scope of who they are and how they operate in the world. So thus far, that's the impression that we get, but it could totally change. I think the one case that we know probably to be true is Jared and Ashley because they have been in the media for all these years. I mean, they're pretty transparent already, but Liz, like I don't, we didn't know her.

Speaker 1:
[60:35] No, and I mean, thank God that we're now being introduced to her. There are some slightly complicated feelings that I have about her watching the newest episode because she dropped that little nugget, like a little wink in her confessional that Kelsey's got some splay and to do about her relationship with Dino, which I presumed meant there had been some entanglement that Kelsey didn't want to address. Now it turns out per episode 4, she did date him at some point briefly. The reason she didn't want to talk about it is because he was seemingly stalking her after. If you know that as a friend, why would you reference that as an Easter egg of like, well, she's not pure when you know the, like, quote unquote purity, quote unquote, when you know the reason she doesn't want to talk about this man is because he was really crossing lines and boundaries and she doesn't want to return to that like dark period of her life. That was tough.

Speaker 2:
[61:31] She's trying to shake off her entanglement business or social entanglement with Dino. So she's like pushing the past and passing it off.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] Yeah, but also if I was, I mean, God forbid, I think through Dino's eyes, if I was Dino, and I would hope, and this is overly optimistic, way too overly optimistic, that he recognizes his behavior was at least super toxic, I don't know that I would like my dear friend bringing that up and opening that can of worms. I don't think from either perspective, I think you're totally right, Liz was trying to get us on a different path, but sweet Lord, that the way she did it.

Speaker 2:
[62:14] Now we know it's at least one thing that's going to be brought up at the reunion, right?

Speaker 1:
[62:18] Yeah, but I would assume she wouldn't even want to go down that path because her dear friends, who she's so closely associated with, I mean, did she even have a conversation with him to be like, you treated my friend like shit? Probably not. It doesn't.

Speaker 2:
[62:33] Probably not.

Speaker 1:
[62:34] I think that was such a lose lose for her and a reveal in a way where I was like, oh wait, but you were so great at calling out misogyny and all this other stuff, and then look what we're doing.

Speaker 2:
[62:45] Look what we're doing. Again, with the dynamics, I wonder if she finds, this would be a great question for her, I wonder if she finds that people often dismiss her very real feelings about abandonment or distrust because they say, well, you signed up for this.

Speaker 1:
[63:04] Who's the she?

Speaker 2:
[63:06] Kelsey? Yeah, you live a life where you don't have to pay any bills, someone takes care of you, but you could also date other people. What kind of message are you sending? I'm sure she gets a lot of that. People dismiss her feelings because they see this lifestyle. I mean, with the drone footage and she's on the pool float. That's probably how people look at her life. We all know that that's probably not the reality. She probably cries herself to sleep many nights, like many women do when they're 29 where they're like, fuck, I'm not where I want to be in my romantic relationships, in my career, maybe with conflicts with friends and family. But they see that and they assume like she's got some sort of sweet deal. And I'm sure she has made bad decisions about relationships. We all do. We all do.

Speaker 1:
[63:58] Yeah, and it's interesting that, you know, there's this other person who's presented to us as a possible option for her romantically. And she's saying she's interested. He has all these good qualities. He respects her. I hope I didn't just say that out of an assumption through osmosis. But like, you know, it would be more of the kind of relationship dynamic that she would prefer, except wait, he can't retire her in the ways that she wants. So she doesn't really look at him as realistic versus, you know, Judge Caprio's kiddo.

Speaker 2:
[64:31] But again, again, I bet you that's the culture there where you have a lot of men that are like, well, she owes me, I gave her a lifestyle. That's kind of like the deal. They make him with the devil, right? I mean, is there anything that's really much different than Kelsey and Alicia? Like they both painted themselves into a corner because they're with men who think that they're just sort of like an accessory.

Speaker 1:
[64:58] It makes me so, I'm just, I, it's tough to watch.

Speaker 2:
[65:03] It's tough to watch. But I'm going to tell you as somebody who, so listeners, just so you know, I have five children. So I have a different lens because I see a lot of women. So I had my first baby when I was 32. So I got married at 30, 32. So I feel like I have seen so many friends, other moms from preschool days, who have completely different lives now. Like they divorced, they have a new chapter, and a lot of them will say, I made a lot of accommodations in our relationship because I really wanted to be a mom. And so once you make the first accommodate, like, yeah, he's not totally supportive of my friends, but I do want to have a baby and we will live in this town or we do go on nice vacations. It's like you make one accommodation and then it's like another accommodation until then they're looking at the mirror and they're like, what the hell kind of power do I have in this relationship anymore? And it like slipped through the cracks. I saw it with my own sister. And so the version that we are when we're like 25, like out of college and we start our career and we're like, I'm going to find this person and we're going to have this family or live in this community. I think that a lot of people kind of look past certain things because you have this plan for yourself if you want to start a family. And so I'm often reminded of that when I see some of the Housewives stories. Like everybody has these great intentions of like where you want to be if you decide you want to have a family and then you marry somebody and you're like, shit. And then it takes sometimes for a lot of women to go, I made a bad decision but now I have these children and what am I going to do? And so that's what I love about Real Housewives is like a snapshot into a lot of a lot of these life chapters and where somebody is. And so I don't know, I think the discussion of like how could a woman get themselves into this position where they're totally reliant on a man? I'm saying it would be surprising, I think it would surprise people how easily that can happen.

Speaker 1:
[67:32] I totally agree and I think the focus on Rula and Brian's relationship is particularly interesting. Alicia mentioned it briefly after Andy asked her, an audience member I forget who, asked her a question about it and her response was like, Rula is fighting for her relationship and her marriage and I hope she wins. And that was interesting language to me because I just think of like, what are you losing for winning? Because this man is, I mean, she has that scene in last week where she's with her friends and nobody wants to use the word affair. Like that's the worst part is not his behavior, but how you define it and minimize it. And then you have the scene with Alicia's six aunt or I don't know if all six were there, but like a few, a percentage of her six aunts telling her, you know, I hope here's my experience. I had men mistreat me. I hope you find a way to hurt him. I was screaming, I like literally died for that moment. But the ruler of it all is particularly interesting because here is someone who has said repeatedly, things aren't great when I'm talking one on one, but to everybody else, I'm not going to mention what this man has done to me and how I do feel mistreated. But I'm going to fight like hell to protect this for my idea of what a family is. I just think like you're losing yourself entirely inside of the, you are a part of the family. Where's what you deserve and what, and this is so easy for me to say a single person without kids. But I just think in terms of like your kids are watching, it's so much, there's so much pressure to including her own expectations and the kids and everything else. But like your kids are watching the way that your husband is mistreating you. Is that the kind of family example? You're sacrificing yourself for this. It's very, I'm not saying, I'm just saying it's incredibly complicated.

Speaker 2:
[69:30] Yeah. Well, I think a lot of times women are so overwhelmed, especially if you're a working mom and if you've got little kids, that you're just trying to keep your head above water. You can't even think about those things because you're, okay, so like, okay, you wake up and you turn over and you look at this guy and you're like, I cannot believe I have to be in the same bed and home with this asshole. But then it's, you know, one o'clock in the afternoon after you've worked, you've run errands, you've made calls, you gotta pick up the kids and go to a doctor's appointment. And then after that, you've gotta run to a meeting. The person down the street wants to talk to you about the shitty playdate that your daughter had and then you have to think about your daughter needs to try out for that team and did you get the right coach and then your son is not doing well in science and then you're beating yourself up because he should have been in the science camp and then you've still gotta feed them dinner. Okay, now the dinner's done and God, the house is a disaster so let me pick up a couple of things. And then the kids are needing to go to bed but they had that assignment and they're rushing, you're rushing to make sure that they fill out the reading log and then the husband that you can't stand is looking at you across the room and he's like, I wanna watch a show in the downstairs room, and you watch whatever you wanna watch upstairs. So then you go upstairs and you're sitting in your room and you're like, how the fuck do I get out of this? But I'm so damn tired. That's what I think a lot of them are probably experiencing.

Speaker 1:
[71:04] And then on the flip side of it, you have someone like Rosie, who's clearly saying, I don't think I want this. And then Ashley, as so many people do, is like, no, you do, you do want it. We can share in this together. And it's like, no, some women don't. Some women don't.

Speaker 2:
[71:23] Yeah, I think a lot of women are like, like I said, remember, I told you, I moved this community and the only way I could meet people was when I started to have kids. That's when I had my first friends. So I think a lot of it is like, I want you to be part of my big milestones with me. And then if you don't have kids, then you're not gonna want to come to our third birthday party and you're not gonna know what I'm talking about when I say that's the sixth grade tryouts for soccer. I think a lot of it is like, I want you to be part of my world where it's like, it's not everybody, and I am telling you as a mom of five, you don't need to do it, man. You don't. You do it because you want it. That's the worst shit I've ever heard is somebody like, you should have a kid, you should have a kid. Having a child is a 365, 24 hours. It is a back-breaking, mind-bending job. Although, do I love it? Absolutely. But I would never want to push somebody into doing something if they didn't have their full heart into it, because it affects your children too. Trust me, we know a lot of kids that will say now, yeah, I don't think my mom was really into being a mom. My dad, not so interested, and I can tell you my dad, obviously he was not interested. He abandoned me and was involved in terrorism in Ireland. So there you go. There are lots of people that don't really want to do it and somehow end up doing it. So if you don't want to be a parent, it's totally fine.

Speaker 1:
[72:55] And often the conversation is, revolves around, but you'll regret not having them. But the flip side is, some people regret having them.

Speaker 2:
[73:03] They sure do.

Speaker 1:
[73:04] They sure do.

Speaker 2:
[73:05] And what an asshole thing to say to somebody. You are going to regret it. That's like saying to somebody, you're going to regret not taking that job. Well, are you going to have that job? Like, you don't know what someone else's life is like, or what they have a capacity for, or what fuels them. I think it's better to say to somebody, pursue your passion than it is to be like, oh, you're going to regret it if you don't marry some dodo bird, and then you're stuck with their family and their life. By the way, I have lots of friends who have gone on to have five children without a partner. They've done it on their own. So people can do that too.

Speaker 1:
[73:47] Yeah, there are so many ways to create a family, and sometimes those families don't involve kids.

Speaker 2:
[73:52] And trust me, a lot of people treat me like I'm operating a cult. They're like, why in God's name would you have five children? Trust me. People will ask, they'll go, are you Mormon or Catholic? And I always say, no, I'm an Episcopalian baby hoarder.

Speaker 1:
[74:08] And you know what? You do you boo, and there's no part of me that wants them. There's no part. I just, I adopted a cat. I am, I have my hands full as a single parent to Tofu. And I, I don't, there's no part for forever. Since I was eight, when I was, I remember being eight at all children's theater. And during rehearsals, I was like, I'm going to have a baby girl and her name's going to be Cassandra and it's going to be Cassie for short. I was very focused as a literal child playing mom because I liked the idea of having a kid with a fun nickname. But that's, that's the height of how I felt about kids with almost no exceptions. And I'm okay. I'm very comfortable. There's no, there's no, I've had so much shit in my life and health stuff that like, there's, I don't, I don't have space for it. I, and I had not a great experience as a kiddo. I don't want exactly what Rosie's talking about. I'm like, babe, I so see you in this. I completely understand. She doesn't want to be, she doesn't want to potentially have a child that feels the way about her that she feels about her mom. Like say that without shame. You have nothing to be ashamed of in saying that. Like people don't like to talk about the, that they feel like there's something that they should be ashamed about in talking about less than ideal childhoods or relationships with family members, most especially parents. And it's like more people go through shit than don't. And that's one of those moments where I appreciate housewives because in the ways that we redefine what it means to be a housewife while also examining some of the like stereotypes and power dynamics foisted by, you know, the husband in that dynamic, I really appreciate seeing a woman on a show called Housewives and being like, listen, I love being an aunt, which I would have loved. I would have loved to be an aunt. I love being, you know, an auntie, and maybe I'll change my mind, but I don't know how much time I have to do that, but this is where I am.

Speaker 2:
[76:05] Some of the most special relationships that a child can have are with ancillary people in a parent's life. Like, I have friends who have really interesting talents that my husband and I do not have, that my kids can talk to that person about it. You know, I feel like, for some reason, people come to me about infertility stuff, I guess, because they're like, you know, I want to talk to somebody who's had a lot of children, and I'm upset because I don't feel like it's happening. And I'm always reminding people that you can be so instrumental in a child's life, even if you're like someone's neighbor. I say this as somebody who had a completely dysfunctional childhood, went to a boarding school for underprivileged children. All my classmates were orphaned or from poor families too. They were people in our life who did one small thing for us. They told us, you're a great writer, you're really funny, you have enormous resiliency. There's just things that they said to us that put so much wind in our sails, helped us with our confidence. And they didn't have to be a parent. They didn't have to be somebody who was in our life every day. But it changed the trajectory of our life. So I think in the pursuit of having children, also be mindful that you could be so helpful to people with children around you. Maybe somebody down the street, there's a child that you see outside playing street hockey or something like, talk to them, talk to them about stuff that they're interested in.

Speaker 1:
[77:58] Totally. I think it's a great point. And also, Kate Casey, when's the book? When is the book? I need to see you write this on the written page, and I would like to read it, please. My goodness. A big life story to tell.

Speaker 2:
[78:14] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[78:15] Any time. Thanks so much for our little pod swap journey. You need to come back immediately. There's so much more that we have to discuss, and maybe we'll do that when Miami's put off the pods.

Speaker 2:
[78:29] It'll come back. I think it'll come back. I think it will come back.

Speaker 1:
[78:32] Yeah, but I don't know. Then I feel like they'd feel the pressure to recast it, and it's like maybe don't do that. We've all fired Julia, that's all fine and good, and I don't know what to do with Dr. Nicole, who I love, who won't come back understandably if Marisol's in the cast, so I don't know what to do there, but you got a great show. I don't know if it'll still be great if you're taking your sweet-ass time trying to fix a problem that isn't broken. The only broken part is your own fuck ups with the peacock exclusive to airing episodes and people getting confused of when to watch. Blaming that on the cast or the story is not really where that blame goes. But in the meantime, Kate Casey, tell AG some recent episodes of the pod where folks can follow you on social, mention it all.

Speaker 2:
[79:21] So Reality Life with Kate Casey, you can listen to it anywhere you listen to podcasts. I have six episodes a week. Every Monday I tell you what to watch. Tuesday through Friday I interview people who are featured or who make unscripted TV, so reality shows and documentaries. And then every Saturday I do a Saturday series episode. It began with me telling people about my life story and then I started interviewing people I know and it has expanded to people who have just like wildly fascinating stories. As of recently, a lot of people who found out about birth parents later in life. Okay, so I have a what to watch list. You can get it at katecasey.substack.com. When you sign up for that, every week in your inbox, it usually comes out Sundays. It'll tell you all the great things that you can watch this week. And I do a ton of interviews with people who are featured or who make true crime docs, sports docs. Every kind of documentary, I've done a ton of cult stuff. If you followed NXIVM, I had Nancy Salzman on, like very interesting people. And tomorrow, I, yeah, I've got just everything. So check that out, a Facebook group, Reality Life with Kate Casey too.

Speaker 1:
[80:28] And we did a big old deep dive, sort of a Rhode Islanders guide to Rhori. So if you want to listen to that episode, which I highly recommend, you can find that on Kate Casey's amazing podcast, Reality Life with Kate Casey. I do just want to make a public service announcement before we wrap. I have never in my life, I've heard of pizza strips, which is how I described them. And you can also call them party pizza. I have never in my life for the woman whose grandpa was a Superior Bakery huge fucking deal in Rhode Island, to call them pizza chips. I had to go back and then they referenced it on Watch What Happens. Need to have Alicia on the pod to really figure that out because I know this woman loves herself a cracker as do I. I always have gluten-free crackers, usually too many bags wherever I go for sodium, but from my health, yada yada. But babe, we need to talk about the chip. I've never heard that in my life.

Speaker 2:
[81:23] Talk about the chip.

Speaker 1:
[81:24] We gotta talk about the pizza chips.

Speaker 2:
[81:26] That's your merch. We need to talk about the chips.

Speaker 1:
[81:29] We need to talk about the chips. It does not make any sense. Rhode Island-based Bravoholics, please slide them into my DMs. Send me a satchel to discuss on Patreon, because I've never heard that used as a title. And listen, I could be 100% wrong, but I was shaken by it. That was the one thing from the episode that got me the most. LOL. Speaking of the Patreon, sign up for the Andys Girls Patreon, number one way to support the pod at patreon.com/andysgirls and on Instagram and threads at damegalli. Kate Casey, thanks so much for coming back.

Speaker 2:
[81:58] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[82:00] Thanks to everyone for listening and we will chat with you soon. Bye-bye.