transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:18] What's up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of True Crime and Cocktails. We're so glad that you're here. As always, I'm your host, Lauren Ash, and as always, I am joined by my co-hostess with the most s, Christy Oxborrow. How you feeling?

Speaker 2:
[00:30] I am so great.

Speaker 1:
[00:34] Is this about the hockey?

Speaker 2:
[00:36] It is about the hockey. Yeah. Yeah, I'm so great. Did I scream to a level?

Speaker 1:
[00:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[00:44] Did they take it to fucking overtime? I thought it could be fun to record this moment and cherish it forever. So I started recording on my phone each time the teams sent someone out to shoot. Then after the first round, I was like, okay, nobody scored. So then I stopped the video and deleted it. I'm like, what am I doing? Second time, did it again, and I was like, let it go. Third time, and I was like, no, I'm not going to do it. Still nothing. I was like, okay, do it again. So I recorded. My guy scored and then my other guy saved it, and I screamed to a level, and I was conscious enough to realize I was shaking the camera. So I stopped it and then immediately started sobbing, and just uncontrollably sobbed and kept just repeating, my boys, my boys. So loud, I just don't even know. But again, the Philadelphia Flyers, the first team in NHL history to make the playoffs after being nine points away from a wild card spot, and we got a third in the metro spot. So I'm so proud of them.

Speaker 1:
[02:12] I love to see that for you. Also, I'm probably going to need you to release that tape.

Speaker 2:
[02:17] I did post the tape, but I didn't see it. I stopped it before I scream, but I stopped it before I started crying. Well, but yeah, I have posted it. I also felt good about, I mean, the first one that I ended up deleting, I say some colorful words when I go to score and we don't. I'm glad that I caught it. I've watched that video back multiple times and it makes me cry every time because I remember the swell of emotion that I felt in that moment. But the amount of interviews that I've seen with these boys, and people will ask them about it, and their response is like how much they love each other. I'm like, so they're like the Blue Jays but in hockey, and I was like, this feels absolutely right, that we would gravitate to the teams that are all about being bros.

Speaker 1:
[03:20] I also like that I've liked this video that you posted, but I haven't heard it. I think I must have liked it while I was in bed, and what I love is that if I'm in bed, I can't have the sound on. There's no one else in the house. Why am I watching videos on mute?

Speaker 2:
[03:35] Well, here's the thing, though. You also, like, you get what's happening.

Speaker 1:
[03:39] You don't need to hear it. Yeah, I think that that was probably my thing, was that I was like, oh, that's amazing. I didn't. But again, why am I not going to toggle the sound on? Again, why would I be keeping the volume down? I live in a home.

Speaker 2:
[03:55] You're just, you're respectful of just the animals. You're respectful of the home space.

Speaker 1:
[04:02] I guess. Oh my God. Last night, in the night, there was a giant crash. And I have glass break monitors. So if they're turned on and you open the dryer, that sound will set them off. Closing the dryer.

Speaker 2:
[04:20] I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1:
[04:22] If you close a drawer too firmly, it'll set them off. But what didn't set them off was whatever this crash was. And that was a gift because in the moment I was like, okay, if it had been somebody coming in the house, there's no way the alarm's not going off.

Speaker 2:
[04:37] Right, right.

Speaker 1:
[04:39] So then I was like, well, get the taser, get the stun gun. And then I thought, what if it's lost its charge? So then I thought, get the pepper spray as the backup.

Speaker 2:
[04:54] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[04:55] And then I was like, shouldn't you be testing this? Doesn't matter. What I love is that I then bravely paraded through this home at three, four o'clock in the morning, possibly uncharged stun gun in one hand, pepper spray in the other. And it was, I had been washing dishes, like the stuff that can't go in the dishwasher and a wooden cutting board had slid out of the drying rack and slid onto the floor crash. I do also feel a little alarmed that that didn't set off the glass break sensor.

Speaker 2:
[05:33] That is a loud noise.

Speaker 1:
[05:34] It was very loud. It was very loud.

Speaker 2:
[05:37] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:40] So that's not great. It's not great.

Speaker 2:
[05:42] No. But I mean, what a relief. It was just, you know, like dishes settling. Or, you know, like I've, because I've had that where you stack them in a certain way, and then all of a sudden it slightly shifts and something clunks. And you're like, well, here we go. I'm going to die.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:00] Because I hear, I can hear the cats. Who are we kidding? I can hear cheddar. Because it's not, it's not Evie. She's too lazy for this. I can hear cheddar from my bed with the door closed. I can hear her jumping up and throwing her body into the door to try and get upstairs. I mean, it's like, you know, you go downstairs. Like if you could just be chill, wander the house, sit on the table without us knowing, do whatever you want at night, I'd leave the door open. But she scratches on our bedroom door or howls like a goddamn wolf outside our door at like three, four in the morning. And I'm like, no, thank you. Therefore, basement, which is where all their food, water, bathrooms, all of that are, and so many places to sleep. But she just wants to be where the people are, not on like aerial. That's who she is.

Speaker 1:
[07:03] Yeah. Sharkey has, you know, cause Sharkey is so young and spry for his 17 years. Anyone who meets him is like, that cat can't be 17. I'm like, I know, he's impossibly young. The one thing about him that is his age, he started howling. He started morning howling. Morning and night, but primarily morning howling. Like that level. Oh, boy.

Speaker 2:
[07:27] Now, this is an age thing.

Speaker 1:
[07:30] I personally believe, because I have had other older cats in my days, and they reach a point, my thought is, is that they're going deaf and they're like trying to hear themselves.

Speaker 2:
[07:44] That's heartbreaking.

Speaker 1:
[07:46] It is sad.

Speaker 2:
[07:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:48] I also think it could just be, humans don't get easier with age. I think maybe they just become a little more demanding, that they're like, why haven't you gotten up and fed me? For those who are like, maybe he has a health issue, take him to the vet. I promise you he's fine. He's been checked over. He is completely fine. It's just, he's just doing a weird cat thing. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, is it jarring? Yes. Yeah. Do I find myself begging for him to just come to bed? Yes.

Speaker 2:
[08:24] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[08:26] Yeah. But he's his own man. He's his own man.

Speaker 2:
[08:30] Every parent has heard their child wake up way too early, looked at a clock and thought, please go back to bed. Please go back to bed.

Speaker 1:
[08:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:42] So, 100 percent.

Speaker 1:
[08:45] And listen, he's not howling the rest of the time. It's only around meal times, which makes me feel like that's all this is.

Speaker 2:
[08:51] His time has just shifted a little earlier.

Speaker 1:
[08:54] It's like that Simon's Cat, those cartoons.

Speaker 2:
[08:58] No, I don't think I know Simon's Cat.

Speaker 1:
[08:59] Oh, you love Simon's Cat. Oh, it's very cute. It's like a little pencil drawing animation. And the cat points at its mouth, pushes the empty bowl and is like, it's very cute.

Speaker 2:
[09:11] I'm charmed. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:14] Yeah, you'd love it. I got us to write down a list of things to send you. There's Simon's Cat. There's some other things we were talking about before we started. Yeah, there's a lengthy list starting of videos to expect from me. Now, I do have something very quickly. Now, I have a minor update.

Speaker 2:
[09:35] Hey!

Speaker 1:
[09:35] Now, that's usually what Christy does on this show, but hey, here I am stepping out of my lane. It's not even good. I haven't written anything. But for those who don't know, I just started watching because it literally just came out within the last three or four days. Boy Band Confidential. This is, of course, the documentary executive produced by Joey Fatone. It's a four-part series that's, of course, getting into the dark side of boy bands. Obviously, we talked about Luke Perlman in that whole situation. I will say this. I'm really enjoying this documentary, and I feel like because it was made by one of them, I feel like they were able to get more guys from different groups, and some of the stories are quite heartbreaking, and also stories I just never heard before. I'm not going to give any spoilers because it's obviously very new, but there are two things I want to talk about. These are not spoilers, but if you don't want to hear them, skip ahead. One of them is the documentary starts with shots of lots of the different guys that are going to be featured in the documentary singing Amazing Grace. Acapella. Now, I don't know if their intention with doing this was like, compare who's the better singer. I don't know if that was their goal, but that's where my brain went. I'm going to say this, and I know this might sound unbelievable, but of the guys they showed, some of which I'm more familiar with than others, of course, in my opinion, the number one singer, Nick Lachey.

Speaker 2:
[11:30] No shit.

Speaker 1:
[11:32] Honest to God, I thought he had the clearest tone. I thought he was the most confident. I was like, I think it's Nick Lachey, and I wouldn't have thought that, but you know what? I also love 98 Degrees, baby, when the lights go out. Go back to that one. That was from Five. Never mind. I didn't want to. Who didn't love 98 Degrees?

Speaker 2:
[11:54] Period.

Speaker 1:
[11:55] Don't have to name a song.

Speaker 2:
[11:57] Here's the thing. I had an obsession. Obsession with 98 Degrees. What's the song? The music video, they're in a boxing ring.

Speaker 1:
[12:17] Oh, yes.

Speaker 2:
[12:18] And I was obsessed with it. I mean, we can't even get me started on Nick Lachey because what's left of me?

Speaker 1:
[12:28] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[12:29] Get out. Hey, baby, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1:
[12:32] Want to tell you, don't worry.

Speaker 2:
[12:34] I will be here.

Speaker 1:
[12:36] Don't wait up.

Speaker 2:
[12:37] Is that that's Backstreet Boys, The Call.

Speaker 1:
[12:39] I mean, it's such a good song.

Speaker 2:
[12:42] I mean, Mother Laurel will tell me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 1:
[12:45] Oh, yeah. No one is more familiar with the Backstreet Boys.

Speaker 2:
[12:49] I'm pretty sure that is the Backstreet Boys.

Speaker 1:
[12:51] All right.

Speaker 2:
[12:51] God, I'm trying to. This kills me. It's a slightly slower one. God. OK. I love that. I'm like, do I have to say this?

Speaker 1:
[12:59] I promise you that was that was them. This, I promise you, was it? That might have been a Nicola Shay song. I'm trying to. Here's what I'm learning. I don't know that I know any 98 Degree songs, but I'm wanting to give them credit for a lot of other hits.

Speaker 2:
[13:14] OK. Here, I'm going to. OK. 98 Degrees, Boxing, The Hardest Thing.

Speaker 1:
[13:26] Oh, yeah. It's the hardest thing I ever have to do. Whatever.

Speaker 2:
[13:34] Look you in the eyes and tell you I don't love you. Try to show no emotion when you start to cry. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:51] Here's the thing. Yeah. You don't have to tell her you don't love her. Right? Yeah. Is it the hardest thing you'll ever do? Maybe for a reason. Maybe that's because it's really mean.

Speaker 2:
[14:04] Now here's the thing. I did just quickly Google 98 Degrees Hits.

Speaker 1:
[14:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[14:10] I do. Because of you.

Speaker 1:
[14:15] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[14:16] My everything. Invisible Man was very big for them. Then there's also from the soundtrack of Mulan, True to Your Heart. Oh, yeah. Give Me Just One Night.

Speaker 1:
[14:29] Oh, that's it.

Speaker 2:
[14:30] Give me just one night.

Speaker 1:
[14:33] Una noche. That's that, right?

Speaker 2:
[14:36] Is it? I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[14:38] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] That's the one.

Speaker 1:
[14:39] That's the one for me.

Speaker 2:
[14:41] There it is. What I like is it took us about 10 songs, but we finally got to a 98 degree.

Speaker 1:
[14:48] We got to one that I'm very familiar with. It just took a lot of effort and time.

Speaker 2:
[14:52] In our defense. In our defense. We don't need to defend ourselves. But in our defense, the boy band pop songs coming out in that chunk of time. I mean, there was a lot of similarities. There was a lot of similarities.

Speaker 1:
[15:12] Listen, I mean, they were they were cranking out. They were cranking out the hits.

Speaker 2:
[15:15] They were. They were.

Speaker 1:
[15:16] They were putting together the bands, cranking out the hits. Lou Pearlman was taking most of the money. I mean, it was, you know. Yeah. Being a creep and shit.

Speaker 2:
[15:24] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:25] Oh, they get into more of the creep stuff in this one, I think. More so than in I forgive me because I don't really remember the other documentary. And I know I don't really remember our episode too. That's not a slight against us. I don't remember any episodes that we do. But I don't remember it getting into the same level as I've seen so far here. So trigger warning for people about that if you need it. But also, very damning. Very damning. Last thing I wanted to say on the matter. And again, this isn't a, this isn't a, this is a detail. So it's, you know, I guess it's a spoiler, but again, skip ahead if you don't want to know. It's not a huge plot point, but something that was of interest, I thought, was they were talking about how when Lou Perlman got arrested for everything that he was doing, the fraud and all of that, part of the deal was they started selling off his assets to make money to give to the guys in the bands, right? I think we talked about that in the episode as well. But what we didn't talk about, because again, I think this was the first time, and I don't remember who the gentleman was or what band he was from, but he was talking about how when they did those auctions, one of the things they auctioned off was the songs. He's like, in the auction that they set up to make money to give to all of us, they sold the rights to our music. He's like, we have songs that get millions of streams now, and we don't get a dime, and he goes, and I truly don't even know who owns it. And that, I was like, that is the saddest thing I've ever heard, that it was like, how on earth wouldn't they just give those songs back to the artists?

Speaker 2:
[17:08] It seems like the easiest way.

Speaker 1:
[17:11] The easiest way! I remember the day that my anxiety got so bad that therapy just wasn't cutting it anymore. Don't get me wrong, therapy was helping, but it just wasn't the whole answer for me. If your anxiety, depression or ADHD are more than just a rough patch, you don't just need another meditation app. Talkiatry gives you access to real psychiatric care with licensed clinicians who can diagnose and prescribe medication for you if it's right. It's a simple way to get effective treatment right from home. Talkiatry makes it easy to see a psychiatrist online using your insurance in just days. Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, OCD, PTSD, insomnia and more. Unlike therapy only apps, Talkiatry is psychiatry. That means you're seeing a medical provider who can diagnose mental health conditions and prescribe medication when it's appropriate. You'll meet with an experienced licensed psychiatrist who takes the time to understand what's going on, builds a personalized treatment plan, and can prescribe medication when it's right for you. Your care will stay consistent and evidence-based. Getting started with Talkiatry just takes a few minutes. Complete a short online assessment, get matched with clinicians who fit your needs, and schedule your first visit in days, not months. More than 300,000 patients have already found high quality psychiatric care through Talkiatry. Head to talkiatry.com/tcac and complete the short assessment to get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's talkiatry.com/tcac to get matched in minutes. Anyway, I just was fascinated, and I highly recommend. And, you know, again, update. A little, that's a little tidbit for you there. A little teesier, like hosier. Get out of here. I mean, my energy's jagged a little, but anyway, it was just, it was interesting because it felt like, again, there's some new details in that documentary. And the documentary is also, I thought, just interesting because you hear from a lot of other boy bands that we don't, that aren't connected to Lou Perlman. There's a whole Boys to Men section in the first episode, which is interesting. There was a lot of stuff in there I had never heard before. Lot of lore. So yeah, have at it, folks.

Speaker 2:
[19:42] I love that.

Speaker 1:
[19:43] And you, and listen, I was just gonna say, sound off in the comments. What sound off? I am not a fucking cheerleader.

Speaker 2:
[19:53] The next thing, if you tell people to smash that like button, I will smash my own head in if I say it.

Speaker 1:
[20:02] No, I was gonna say, in the comments, let us know if you think Nick Lachey was the best singer, because to me, it was far and away Nick Lachey.

Speaker 2:
[20:12] Now, keep in mind, I have not seen this, so I don't know the people who were singing, but I thought for sure you were gonna say JC.

Speaker 1:
[20:22] He wasn't there. So this is the other thing. There's only certain ones of them there. So yes, I'm not saying he's the best singer out of every-

Speaker 2:
[20:29] Of course, you're just saying of that specific group.

Speaker 1:
[20:32] And I don't know if that was their intention or not. I don't know what their intention was by making them sing. To me, it felt like it was a moment for us to go like, oh, can they still sing or whatever? And to me, I was like, God, Nick Lachey, he's a really good singer. And I always thought that on Nick and Jessica Newlyweds. They'd have clips of him performing, and I was like, he really is a very good singer.

Speaker 2:
[20:53] And he was born for it.

Speaker 1:
[20:56] Yeah, maybe he's born with it. It's not Maybelline, he's just a good singer. Nick Lachey.

Speaker 2:
[21:03] Maybe he's born, God, what is it? How does it go? How does Maybelline go?

Speaker 1:
[21:08] Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline.

Speaker 2:
[21:10] There it is. I tried to sing the beginning part that it's, maybe he's born with it. Maybe it's talent.

Speaker 1:
[21:18] That's the thing. It's like, God, I think he's... Listen, I think that all of them are very talented, to be honest. I don't think you can get that job. Nobody can get that job and be successful if you're not talented, period.

Speaker 2:
[21:31] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] It may not be everybody's cup of tea, and that's fine. Not everything is for everybody. But yeah, I was impressed. He's also aging well. I don't know what's up. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[21:47] Yeah, I could not be more tickled by the fact that the breaking news is Nicola Shay's talent. Update. I love that so much because that's the joke. I have a small update for you. Well, not so much for you because you already know the update because I gave it to you in real time. This is for the people.

Speaker 1:
[22:10] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[22:11] I mean, obviously, also for you. But I spoke in the last one about those mystery box Lumas from the Mario movie.

Speaker 1:
[22:24] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[22:25] How I ended up with the special one without realizing it and gave it to a child. Then I was like, I have to circle back. A week later, one week later, I went back to the theater just to get them. They were sold out. They're sold out everywhere. They were like, hey, big sign that said, sold out, don't worry, use this QR code and buy it on our website. I was like, website, done. The only thing on that website was popcorn buckets. And I was like, no thanks. So then I'm like, now I have to reach out to people I know in other cities that live near a cineplex to find them. We'll never fear. Then I made a little stop. At Walmart, because I wanted Tostitos Gold, because they have become my favorite thing, because I've now started warming up my chips. Oh, because specifically like Tostitos, like a tortilla chip type thing, I've started warming them in the oven. And I'm gonna tell you, it really makes a difference. How many times in the last three weeks have I just had like chips and salsa for lunch? I don't wanna tell you, because it's embarrassing, but it's more than four. It's, there's no judgment here, a revelation. But while I was there, I discovered, they're called yo-yos, but I don't wanna use them as yo-yos. They're these cute little, that's adorable, lumas. Now, they came in three different colors, so I bought one of each. And we've got, like, they're so cute.

Speaker 1:
[24:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:07] And then because you got one with eyes open, one doing a wink, oh, one with both eyes closed. So now I've got the three lumas, cause I felt with a luma, you gotta have multiple in a grouping. The lumas are the little star characters or whatever. But now that I've had these, I'm okay. I've let the mystery ones go. This is close enough for me. So my update is I was, it's just gonna have to do. I had to let it go. I've just, what else am I gonna do? I've had, I've had to move on. I didn't want to, but look, I have to, I have to let it go. And I have some lumas, some lumas is better than, than none. Yeah, so I've had to accept it, but I'm trying to accept it by saying that my, my initial problem has been resolved.

Speaker 1:
[25:12] Right, which is wonderful.

Speaker 2:
[25:14] I'm trying to accept that.

Speaker 1:
[25:16] And why am I such a shit-disturber? Like, why am I the enabler to it? I'm such an enabler. I'm like, are you happy with it though?

Speaker 2:
[25:24] Because all you want is for me to be truly and in my core genuinely happy. And you're worried that I'm faking it. And you're like, I want genuine happiness. And so you're just checking in.

Speaker 1:
[25:41] What if I told you the resale cost on these bad boys has come down?

Speaker 2:
[25:46] I wonder if people were like, no, everyone's gonna want them. And then they put them up there and went, nobody does.

Speaker 1:
[25:52] I think that's exactly what's up.

Speaker 2:
[25:53] Nobody wrote a random Yahoo in Saskatchewan.

Speaker 1:
[25:58] Anyway, listen, you're a good woman. And I'm glad, listen, you know what? I should take a page from your book. I should find myself satisfied with things. I should stop buying things I don't need.

Speaker 2:
[26:10] Oh, just because I, just because I'm excited to have those in my life and I've told myself, that'll do, that'll do. It's like that moment in love, actually. My crush, I've gone to her door, I've professed my love, even though my best friend, aka her husband, is literally right there. But he deserves it when he starts the program before she comes back, because he paused it when the doorbell rang. Not the point. The point is, I feel in that moment, she has come out, she's kissed me on the cobblestones, and I've said, that'll do.

Speaker 1:
[26:50] Like that's enough. Enough, enough, no.

Speaker 2:
[26:52] Enough. That's what I've done with these Lumas. I've just told myself, enough. And I'm telling you why. If my team hadn't made the playoffs, yeah, I'd be scouring that internet.

Speaker 1:
[27:05] Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 2:
[27:07] Because they have, I'm like, you know what? A win's a win. I'm so full of dopamine over that, that I'm like, okay, I can let the Lumas slide. I'll trade them for a Stanley Cup. Is that pushing it? Yeah, yeah. Again, nobody believed in these boys. We've been laughed at for so long. For, I have loved the Philadelphia Flyers for longer than most of those players have been alive. For years, decades, I have been, every time I say that they are my favorite team, I get, why? Because it's almost like you only can like them if you're in Philadelphia. And the thing is, they're worldwide. Go back to the most recent time they were in Anaheim and they played against Cutter Gautier, who we will not speak about. He got booed in his own building because we had so many fucking fans there. The point is, Philadelphia has a heart and I love those boys to the ends of the earth and I'm so proud to call them my own.

Speaker 1:
[28:34] Oh, God, what a gift. What a gift we are.

Speaker 2:
[28:42] Oh, I mean, we've been cracking up through voice notes all day.

Speaker 1:
[28:46] Oh, yeah, we've really been on one. We've been on one. I was saying that earlier, I was like, God, what's going on with us? I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm going to a place nearby, I gotta go. That song's living rent free now, you know?

Speaker 2:
[29:04] But the beautiful thing is now you know it's not 98 Degrees.

Speaker 1:
[29:08] Yeah. And I think I knew that in my heart of hearts. I just wanted it to be 98 Degrees because I think it's such a good song. And I'm going to say something now, too. I think 98 Degrees, the unsung heroes of the boy bands. Why?

Speaker 2:
[29:22] Okay. Why?

Speaker 1:
[29:24] Because they really, really worked hard for it. And I'm not saying that the other boys didn't, but the 98 Degrees boys, and they talk about it a little bit in the documentary, but I also remember this from my Nick and Jessica newlyweds days. Like, they grinded it out. They were definitely like not living in the lab of luxury, like definitely from working class, like just trying to get to the next thing, et cetera. Am I in love with 98 Degrees? Is that what I'm just saying? Is this me and Nick Lachey's love story here?

Speaker 2:
[29:53] I mean, they did with Four Guys what took other bands Five Guys to do.

Speaker 1:
[29:59] Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:
[30:01] I've now questioned, I'm like there was four of them, right? Yeah, there was Nick Lachey, there was the other Lachey, no offense. Then there was that one guy who looks like a math teacher, but then he takes off his shirt and you're like built like a gym teacher. What does that even mean? Then the guy with the goatee glasses. So yeah, there's the four of them. I'm telling you right now, if anybody looks at a picture of 98 degrees, you'll know exactly which one of them I meant. One liked a beret hat. He always seemed to have a hat.

Speaker 1:
[30:41] I think he was balding.

Speaker 2:
[30:43] Oh, well.

Speaker 1:
[30:43] This is before all the hair transplants and turkey were happening. Big Lachey, little Lachey, o'beard bald little guy.

Speaker 2:
[30:57] Well, I'll say it for the other guy. I would honestly say he's Lachey adjacent. He looks like he could be a Lachey.

Speaker 1:
[31:07] Is he a cousin?

Speaker 2:
[31:09] If he is, I'll be blown away. Because I always thought he looks like he could be, like he's close enough that I would buy if there's a relation there.

Speaker 1:
[31:22] 98 degrees. Were any of them cousins? No. Got it. No. Nick Lachey and Drew Lachey, Jeff Timmons and Justin Jeffrey. Okay. This is the other thing. Unlike the boy bands that were put together, they were formed independently. They were all from Ohio. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:52] Well?

Speaker 1:
[31:53] I just think, you know what, honestly, I think good on them. I remember Nick and Jessica Newlyweds, which I know I've said Nick and Jessica Newlyweds probably like eight times at this point. It speaks to my love of Nick and Jessica Newlyweds. But I remember on that show, he was just very, he seemed very kind of humble, like very kind of, I don't want to say blue collar. It's not necessarily the right term, but like he would just be very horrified at the money she was spending. You know, he wanted to do everything himself. Like he wanted to like fix things himself. He didn't want like hire a handyman. Now I also do have to say, you know, Nick is not perfect. I found upon a recent rewatch, he was very mean to her and how he spoke to her, very condescending, but he was young.

Speaker 2:
[32:40] Why am I defending him?

Speaker 1:
[32:44] I think I've gone through a transformation. A transformation. Haven't had a sip of alcohol. I think I've been through a transformation today. I think I started today a wee caterpillar. I think I went into a cocoon when I watched that documentary and got dazzled by Nick Lachey's singing, and I think now I've emerged a butterfly that has 98 degree tattoos on its wings.

Speaker 2:
[33:08] I'm going to say it. You got Lacheyed.

Speaker 1:
[33:28] I absolutely got the shade. He's dreamy.

Speaker 2:
[33:32] Listen, I always thought it. Again, do a rewatch. And if this is what we're gonna do over on Patreon, maybe give that The Hardest Thing video a rewatch. I'm not even sure if he's one of the boxers. I thought he was, but I'm pretty sure the video is in like a sepia, like some sort of a, maybe a black and white, I thought it was like a sepia tone. I don't know, it's romantic as shit. And I remember, like that's, that's the romance we grew up with. And I guarantee I have not seen that in probably 20 years. So I'm concerned going back that I'm gonna be like, God, I thought this was romantic.

Speaker 1:
[34:18] Well, I don't feel like the lyrics are romantic, are they? I mean, maybe I'm, I'm jumping, I'm jumping ahead. But the whole, like, the hardest thing I'll have to do is tell you that I don't love you. Like, well, then why are you doing it?

Speaker 2:
[34:28] Well, when I, when we, when we're, we're, like, going our separate ways, the hardest thing is gonna be to not tell you that I'm in love with you.

Speaker 1:
[34:37] Oh, okay.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] The kind of, like, I want you to stay.

Speaker 1:
[34:41] Well, then just say that.

Speaker 2:
[34:42] Well, yes, but boys can't just be straightforward.

Speaker 1:
[34:46] And this is toxic masculinity, right there.

Speaker 2:
[34:48] Well, yeah, okay, 98 degrees, hardest thing, lyrics. Um, oh, God, it's killing me, it's killing you, both of us trying to be strong. Oh, I've got somewhere else to be. Promises to keep someone else who loves me. And trust me, Fast Asleep. I don't believe I ever thought that was their lyrics. I've made up my mind, there's no turning back. She's been good to me. She deserves better than that. It's the hardest thing I'll ever have to do to look you in the eye and tell you I don't love you.

Speaker 1:
[35:27] So he's been cheating.

Speaker 2:
[35:31] Hinder's Lips of an Angel. Has been used as wedding songs for years. And that's literally, why are you calling me so late? It's kind of hard to talk right now. My girl's in the next room, so I can't be too loud. The fact that I knew those exact words. Why am I justifying they're cheating? The point is, he was cheating.

Speaker 1:
[36:03] So the hardest thing is telling his, the woman he's cheating with that he doesn't, oh, the hardest thing I'm going to ever have to do is say I didn't love you as I go back to my girlfriend, who's been really good to me.

Speaker 2:
[36:13] This is, yeah, again, again, I didn't say, again, it was a different time. It's the hardest thing I'll ever have to lie to show no emotion when you start to cry. I can't let you see what you mean to me when my hands are tied and my heart's not free. We're not meant to be. And that's when Nick goes into his separate, like, we're not meant to be, like he has a solo, cause of course he does. It's the hardest thing I'll ever have to do to turn around and walk away pretending I don't love you. I also reference Dr. Zhivago, which I think is pretty revolutionary in music. Is it revolutionary? None of them have ever seen it.

Speaker 1:
[37:05] I have a few pieces of feedback. One, I think you found a karaoke song.

Speaker 2:
[37:12] Yeah, once I remembered.

Speaker 1:
[37:14] Two, maybe it's a duet. You're taking Nick's solo. Three.

Speaker 2:
[37:19] I wouldn't hear of it.

Speaker 1:
[37:20] I'm not going to put on my psychologist hat, but I'm just going to have you just put a pin in, it's so romantic and then close lyrics. Oh, that's all.

Speaker 2:
[37:31] Oh, again, when did the song come out? How young was I?

Speaker 1:
[37:39] Listen, it's kind of like this is, again, Scandival would not have been a scandal back then, you know?

Speaker 2:
[37:46] Oh, well, no, it probably would have been. 1998, I would have been 11th or 12th grade. So, single is shit is the point. So, when a pretty boy is on TV in a boxing outfit, and he looks nice wearing it, and he's like, I'm so deeply in love with you. I have this girl, but I love you more. 17-year-old Christy would have been like, that's all I needed to hear was he loves me. Well, and I understand that's broken, and I've come a long way from there, and I would not put up with that shit, even for Lachey, not now. No, not now, Nick, because now he would try and say this to me, and I would put my finger on his lips and be like, shh, no. And then I walk away.

Speaker 1:
[38:50] Good for you.

Speaker 2:
[38:51] And then I'd have to not be able to show emotion, even though it's his song.

Speaker 1:
[38:57] The cycle continues.

Speaker 2:
[38:58] Yeah. Yeah. I just have, but I would tell him, we could have had our time. Sorry, Nick. Sorry.

Speaker 1:
[39:08] On that note, what are you drinking over there?

Speaker 2:
[39:15] I've got water. And then just after we dicked around for a bit, I went and got myself a Pepsi and was like, I don't need the caffeine. And the fact that I've spoken to Nick Lachey, I didn't need the caffeine.

Speaker 1:
[39:32] No, no, but that's all right. I'm the same. I had a water and I've crushed a Diet Coke and yeah, I'm not sleeping anytime soon. But let's get into the case. We're of course discussing Sherri Papini. Now we did put a flag on the plate today. Four hours ago? Yeah, into a two parter because it's just there is just so much to cover. So this of course is part one of the Sherri Papini saga. This is March's patrons poll pick over on patreon.com/truecrime and Cocktails. We run a poll every month where you can vote for one of the episodes that we will cover here on the main feed of our show. So if you're interested in that, check that out at your leisure.

Speaker 2:
[40:13] Oh, God.

Speaker 1:
[40:15] Just burping over here.

Speaker 2:
[40:16] All right.

Speaker 1:
[40:17] For those not familiar with Sherri Papini, let's get you up to speed right now. In November 2016, Sherri Papini, a 34-year-old married mother of two, went missing while jogging in Redding, California. After clearing Sherri's husband as a suspect, police were unable to figure out what happened to Sherri. And then on the morning of Thanksgiving, Sherri was found badly injured on the side of the road, 150 miles from home. When Sherri was questioned, she claimed to have been abducted at gunpoint by two women, who tortured, beat, and starved her for 22 days before randomly releasing her. Police searched for the female suspects to no avail, and the case seemed to go cold until 2020, when DNA results led to a shocking discovery. Christy Oxborrow investigates.

Speaker 2:
[41:02] I normally have questions in there before I investigate, but I didn't put any this time, because I had to alter that at the last minute, because we chose to split this partially to give me time to finish it.

Speaker 1:
[41:18] Well, I was also going to say, I don't know that we chose to split it. I think it just became so beast, like such a beast, you kind of had to.

Speaker 2:
[41:25] Yeah, because I was starting to panic voicenote and be like, this is how many pages I'm at, and I'm only at this part of the story. I still have so much more to go. So yeah, we're just splitting it too. We're just splitting it too. So disclaimer, this episode will contain mentions of, oh no, that one's not in this one, here we go, intimate partner violence, rape, self-harm, and graphic descriptions of physical violence. So trigger warning for those who need it. As part of my research for this episode, I watched the 2024 Hulu documentary, Perfect Wife, The Mysterious Disappearance of Sherri Papini, and the 2025 Investigation Discovery documentary, Sherri Papini, Caught in the Lie. Sherri Louise Graff was born June 11th, 1982 in Shasta County, California. From the best I can tell, she was raised in Reading. Her parents, Richard and Loretta, also had a daughter, Sheila, who was born around 1980. According to Sheila, there was a lot of drug and alcohol abuse in the home, so Sheila was often left caring for Sherri at a very young age, to the point where she was more like a mother figure than a sister. Sheila said their parents often fought in front of them and that she witnessed Loretta becoming physically abusive towards Sherri, including a time when Loretta allegedly dragged Sherri across the house by her hair. In 1998, when Sherri was 16, she dropped out of school and ran off to Los Angeles before moving to the Bay Area. At some point during this time, Sherri dated a guy named James Reyes. They dated for about three years before breaking things off. Sherri returned to Reading in 2006, where she ran into Keith Papini. Years earlier, when Sherri was in the eighth grade and Keith was in the seventh, the couple shared their first kiss, but then eventually lost touch. After being reunited, they immediately started dating, moved in very quickly, and then married in October 2009. They had a son Tyler in 2012 and a daughter Violet in 2014. Sherri was described as a super mom. Keith worked at the electronic store Best Buy and Sherri worked in sales at the phone company AT&T. In January 2016, after more than 15 years with the company, Sherri was laid off, so she decided to become a stay-at-home mom. Overall, Keith and Sherri seemed like a happy normal couple. On the morning of November 2nd, 2016, Sherri texted Keith to ask if he was coming home for lunch. He later replied to say no, that he had a busy day, but Sherri didn't respond. When Keith arrived home around 5:51 p.m., Sherri wasn't there and neither were their kids. Keith called the daycare and discovered the kids had never been picked up. He used the Find My Phone app to search for Sherri's phone and discovered it at the end of their street at the intersection of Sunrise Drive and Old Oregon Trail. Sherri's phone was on the ground with her earbuds attached, with a few strands of her long blonde hair wrapped around the earbuds. The phone was playing the song Everything by Michael Buble, which was Sherri and Keith's wedding song. Sherri had recently gotten into running in preparation for a local 5K race that was coming up on Thanksgiving. She had said she likes to listen to their wedding song on repeat when she goes for a run because she felt it was a good pacekeeper. When Keith spotted the phone, he took pictures of it before calling 911 to report Sherri missing. From the best anyone could tell, Sherri sent the text to Keith at 1047 a.m. and then didn't read or respond to any messages after that. Her wallet and wedding rings were both found at home. It was said she always left them behind whenever she went for a run. Sherri Papini was described as a 34-year-old Caucasian female, 5'4, 105 pounds, with blonde hair and blue eyes. Local police, along with 250 volunteers, did a massive search for Sherri. Sniffer dogs and helicopters were brought in, and a local company even printed and posted hundreds of flyers for free. But no sign of Sherri was found. Now, as in most cases of a missing woman, the first prime suspect was the husband. In this case, Keith Papini. Neighbors reported hearing a lot of arguments between the couple. A friend told police that according to Sherri, Keith had threatened to kill her, chop her body up into tiny pieces, and bury her in the backyard if she ever tried to leave him.

Speaker 1:
[46:32] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[46:33] The friend said Sherri described Keith as controlling, and said he wanted the classic 1950s housewife who would cook and clean, but he also wanted Sherri to work outside the home. One friend even said Keith had given Sherri a black eye, but later it was discovered that it was all through an accident. Apparently, they were at a friend's house, and they were playing Nintendo Wii, and one got too close to the other and accidentally caught like an elbow in the eye. But the rumor around was that it had been done intentionally and not through a video game, if that makes sense. When police interviewed Keith, he admitted that the marriage wasn't as solid as it seemed from the outside. He said, early in their marriage, before they had children, Keith discovered that Sherri was texting inappropriate things with another man. He got so upset about it that he requested a post nuptial agreement, which determined if Sherri ever cheated on him, Keith would get everything. From that moment on, they chose to keep their money separate. When Sherri was laid off at the beginning of 2016, she received a healthy severance package, so she decided it was enough she could stay home with the kids. But she also wanted to keep them in daycare. Keith refused to pay for it, saying he shouldn't have to pay someone to watch their kids if Sherri is home all day. And I don't know how often the kids went to daycare or how long they were there each time, but I will say sometimes daycare isn't just about someone watching your children when you can't. Sometimes it's also about helping your child socialize before they start going to school. So no judgment on the choice either way. But daycare wasn't the only decision that Sherri made that Keith was against. In early 2016, Sherri chose to use some of her severance money to pay for breast augmentation surgery, which is just a classier way of saying a boob job. Keith was against it because he felt it wasn't necessary, but Sherri did it anyway because it was her body and therefore her right to do so, which might be the one time in this entire two episode series that I will praise Sherri Papini for her choices. Fair.

Speaker 1:
[49:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:08] The police questioned Keith multiple times, but they were unable to find any evidence that he had harmed his wife. After Keith successfully passed a polygraph, police publicly stated Keith was no longer a suspect. But if it wasn't Keith, then what happened to Sherri? Well, according to the Forbes list of most dangerous cities for women in the US in 2012, Redding, California was number five.

Speaker 1:
[49:35] Whoa.

Speaker 2:
[49:35] For those who are curious, according to the list, the top four included Springfield, Illinois, Fairbanks, and Anchorage, Alaska, and Saginaw, Michigan.

Speaker 1:
[49:46] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[49:47] According to Forbes, for every 100,000 people, there were 797 violent crimes and 65 rapes in Redding. At the time, Redding had a population of about 93,000. Now, obviously, the numbers would be a bit different since we're talking 2012, and Sherri's disappearance occurred four years later. But it does help to paint a picture of potential dangers that may have existed at the time, especially when you see there were similar cases to Sherri's in and around Redding. In August 2003, 22-year-old Heather Carpenter disappeared in Redding. Her body was found four months later in a shallow grave three miles northwest of Redding, near a town called Keswick. Police received a tip that Heather was last seen with 17-year-old Patrick Larmour, who was subsequently convicted of Heather's murder. Larmour was sentenced to 25 years to life and given an additional eight years for a rape he had committed in 2002. He'll be eligible for parole consideration in 2036, I hope instead, he rots.

Speaker 1:
[50:57] You're saying.

Speaker 2:
[50:59] In mid-October 2016, 52-year-old Stacey Smart disappeared in Lewiston, about 33 miles west of Redding. Stacey was officially reported missing on the same day as Sherri, although her case received a lot less attention. Stacey was described as a Caucasian female, 5'8, with blonde hair and blue eyes. As of this record, her case remains unsolved. But easily the most similar case to Sherri's was that of 16-year-old Tara Smith. In August 1998, Tara went missing while out jogging near her home. Her family contacted some of Tara's friends and discovered that there was some sort of relationship happening between Tara and her married 29-year-old Taekwondo instructor Troy Zink. Zink admits to seeing Tara that night and even giving her a ride. He told police that Tara asked him for $2,000. And when he said no, Tara got angry and stormed off. Zink claims he last saw Tara about one and a half miles from her home around 6:30 p.m. He then drove to a place called Hang Glider Hill where he prayed for a few hours alone and then returned home around 11:30 p.m. Police brought cadaver dogs to the area and even drained the lake, but there was no sign of Tara. Her family believes that Tara was ending the relationship because they later discovered a breakup letter that Tara had written to Zink in her room. But police couldn't find any physical evidence that Zink was responsible, so they couldn't charge him, which is maddening because he admitted to giving Tara a ride the night she disappeared, and then a few days later, he cleaned out his entire vehicle and replaced his tires. Why would you, why do you have to suddenly replace all of your tires? That's wild. But on the positive side, when police searched Zink's Taekwondo studio, they discovered several firearms, which was a big no-no because Zink was a convicted felon. Because in 1992, he was convicted of spousal rape.

Speaker 1:
[53:16] Oh, God.

Speaker 2:
[53:16] He denies it, but he was convicted. It is illegal for a convicted felon to be in possession of a firearm, so Zink was charged with gun possession and sentenced to four years in prison. Tara was described as a Caucasian female, 5'7, with blonde hair and hazel eyes. As of this record, Tara Smith has never been found, and Troy Zink has never been charged with Tara's disappearance. Since Tara and Sherri Papini had visual similarities and were both last seen jogging within just miles of each other, even though obviously the cases were quite far apart year-wise. But police interviewed Troy Zink to see if he was somehow connected to Sherri's disappearance, but it turns out Zink wasn't even in California at the time that Sherri went missing, so he was ruled out as a suspect. While searching for other potential suspects in Sherri's case, police learned that a man named Donovan Misk, who ran a restaurant in Lansing, Michigan, was having communications with Sherri. According to Donovan, he met Sherri in 2011, when she was in town at a sales conference. He said they went to a few bars together and had a good night together. Donovan said that he knew that Sherri was married, but she had told him her husband was violent and often locked her in their house. Over the next five months, Donovan and Sherri texted back and forth and started planning a potential future together. And that's when Keith found the text messages. So, I believe, based on the timing, this was the incident that inspired Keith to get the postnuptial agreement. Donovan said he didn't hear from Sherri again for about a year when she reached out again. The texting again dwindled, and most recently, Sherri reached out in April 2016. Donovan told Sherri that he was going to be in San Francisco between October 31st and November 2nd and asked if he could see her. In these messages, Donovan referred to himself as the love of Sherri's life. But since Redding was more than three hours north of San Francisco, Donovan wasn't able to get to Sherri and she wasn't able to get to him without Keith knowing. I just love that he was like, love of my life, can I see you? She's like, I'm about three hours away and he went, ah, not worth it. For the love of your life? Okay.

Speaker 1:
[56:01] Well, listen, the hardest thing he ever had to do was tell her that he didn't love her. Sorry, it was right there. I'll be good.

Speaker 2:
[56:09] It was right there. I don't want you to be good.

Speaker 1:
[56:13] I'm a bad girl.

Speaker 2:
[56:17] It's nothing to like us to break mid show. I actually wish we did it more often. Yeah. It helps ease tension. Oh God, what was I even? There we go. Donovan. There we go. Donovan. Sherri texted Donovan at 9 PM on the night of November 1st to say, a solution may be in the works. But Donovan flew out the next morning before hearing anything more from her. And then that same morning he flew out, Sherri disappeared. But since he was on a flight at the time, he was not considered a suspect. But Sherri at this point had been missing for weeks and police had no clue as to where she might be. And then around 430 in the morning on November 24th, which was Thanksgiving, a man called 911 to say he found a woman in need on the side of Interstate 5 near County Road 17 in Yolo County, which is about 150 miles from Reading. The identity of the man is unknown, but the woman was Sherri Papini, miraculously resurfacing after disappearing for 22 days. Now, I don't know if anybody has heard, if you're listening has heard the 911 call. It is featured, I don't know if it's in both documentaries, but it's definitely in the Hulu one. But I'm going to say it, that call is bizarre at best. Now, the man says the woman needs help. And then you can hear him talking to Sherri, and he says, like, you said you were kicked out of your boyfriend's car? And Sherri is heard in the background screaming, no, like, it's super frustrated. And then she says, I was kidnapped. And the man says, okay, well, the woman's name is Sherri Panini. And then Sherri can be heard in the background screaming, it's Sherri Papini. Just angrily, angrily correcting him. And I don't know what I'm basing this on, but in that moment, it kind of felt like she was angry that the man didn't know who she was. And maybe I'm totally wrong, but it just felt like she was like, well, I'm famous because I've been missing forever. Everybody knows who I am. How do you not know my name? Because she said her name and him calling her Panini should not have been funny, but it was.

Speaker 1:
[58:56] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:58] And just for her, she couldn't let it go in that moment. And that was also like, I don't know if that would be my focus, but okay.

Speaker 1:
[59:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[59:08] So while Sherri was alive, she was in very rough shape. There were zip ties on her wrists, a heavy metal chain around her waist. The bridge of her nose had been broken. Her long hair had been cut off. She had rashes on her arms, multiple bruises in various stages of healing, cuts, burns. She was emaciated. She dropped down to 87 pounds. There was also a brand on her back, which was mostly scabbed over by this point. When the ambulance arrived, Sherri was hysterical. She was screaming, crying, and asking to see her husband. When Sherri and Keith were reunited, Sherri said that Keith was her knight in shining armor, and she said he was her soulmate. Sherri was so frightened, she refused to be interviewed without Keith in the room. And even then, it took her a long time to be able to speak to the police because she said she didn't trust them. So where was Sherri Papini, almost said Panini, Papini for those 22 days? Well, according to Sherri, while out for a jog on the morning of November 2nd, she got near Old Oregon Trail. She was abducted at gunpoint by two Hispanic women. Allegedly, she saw a dark SUV, and the female passenger in the front passenger seat was wearing a mask over her nose and mouth, and the woman motioned for Sherri to come closer. And when Sherri did, the woman opened the door and showed Sherri a small handgun. Sherri said she instinctively crouched down, then she put her phone down and pulled out a couple of her hairs to place with the phone, so whoever found the phone would immediately know she was taken. Sherri then says she was forced into the vehicle, although she doesn't remember much from that moment. Sherri said the captors put a pillowcase over her head and made her lie down on the floor. She said she heard mariachi music in the car before she passed out and woke up in a bedroom, which had a single mattress on the floor, a bucket in the closet for a toilet, and boards over the only window. She said the women physically and mentally tortured her every day for weeks, adding they starved her, saying they only gave her scraps like stale bread, black beans, tortillas, and quote, homemade gritty Spanish rice. She also said they mostly spoke Spanish, so she couldn't understand what was being said. So just to recap, Sherri said the women spoke a lot of Spanish, they fed her things like Spanish rice, tortillas, and black beans, and they listened to mariachi music in the car. Now, is it just me or is the combination of these things incredibly suspicious? It honestly sounds like Sherri was just simply asked to name as many Spanish things as she could think of. And a lot of people felt this might have been an indicator that maybe Sherri had some racist tendencies. Sherri denies it, but there was an incident years earlier that calls that into question. In 2007, a neo-Nazi website posted a blog post written by Sherri entitled, Keep Walking. In the post, Sherri spoke about getting into a fight with quote, some Latinos in high school and that her father was proud of her for that fight. The post also featured the line quote, Being white is more than just being aware of my skin, but also of having pride for my country. Sherri denies writing the post even though it featured both her picture and her first and last name, which at the time was her maiden name. She said it was a horrific joke that someone was playing on her. She claims when she first learned about the post, she went to a lawyer to have that post taken down. When asked, what lawyer did she go to? Sherri said she didn't remember the name. Then the person who was interviewing her, she said, well, read me a list of the lawyers in the area. I'll be able to pick out the name. It was ethnic. So not really helping your case here, Sherri. But investigators said the post, while it was posted on that Neo-Nazi website in 2007, it originally came from a MySpace page back in 2003. When asked if she ever had a MySpace page, Sherri said, I don't remember. You don't remember? I may have already forgotten what I ate for lunch today, but I certainly remember having a MySpace page complete with a glittery ER sticker, a background that looked like the night sky. And of course, Lauren is my top friend. I'm sure there was a music lyric quoted on there somewhere, although I don't remember which one, because obviously it changed based on your mood. But not remembering whether you had an account or not feels like she's trying to cover for a lie. Did she post that hateful blog about getting into a fight to seem cool or tough? Because it also, the details didn't work out. It didn't sound like it was her. So I think she was just trying to make something up for appearances. She got a rep to protect sort of situation.

Speaker 1:
[65:09] Rep to protect.

Speaker 2:
[65:10] Yeah, and I think when it all came out years later, she just denied it existed because she was embarrassed and she knew it might get her into some trouble. Again, just really sketchy behavior. But back to Sherri's story. So she described the women who abducted her. She described them, one was younger with thin eyebrows and one was older and fatter with bushy eyebrows. Both women wore masks over their noses and mouths whenever they were around Sherri. She also claimed on the night she was released, the two women were arguing before Sherri heard a gunshot and then the younger woman set her free. So why did these women take her only to then let her go weeks later? Well, according to Sherri, the women told her that she had been sold to a police officer so she shouldn't get her hopes up that she'd be rescued. Sherri says, well, that's why she didn't trust the police. But if she was taken and then supposedly sold, why did these women just let her go? It makes no sense. But with the intense injuries that Sherri had suffered, police believed her story and started to search for the two female suspects. Just over three months after being found, Sherri finally sat down for a longer interview with police on March 2nd, 2017. The details of this interview along with later interviews can be found online in a 55-page court document on the Department of Justice website. It's a long read. I didn't plan on reading the whole thing. It just happened. But if you're interested, you can find it at justice.gov or just literally search Sherri Papini court document and it's probably the first hit that will come up. So she said on the morning of November 2nd, she took the kids to daycare, cleaned the house, and then wrapped a Christmas present for Keith. November 2nd, already rapid gifts. Good for you. Around 11 AM, she texted Keith to ask if he was coming home for lunch. During the interview, she laughs and says, it's embarrassing to admit that she was basically asking her husband to come home for sex. And I don't know if this was common for them, but I was surprised because I assumed she was literally asking if he was coming home for lunch. I didn't think anything that she was asking for a nooner. The fact that I call it a nooner probably means that I'm not ready. But maybe I'm just more innocent than I thought. Did Keith understand that she meant sex? Am I the only one who didn't pick up on that until she outright said it? Because there was no, I just thought she meant like, are you coming home for lunch? AKA, when I make lunch, should I make extra for you? That's kind of what I thought.

Speaker 1:
[68:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[68:23] That's apparently not what she meant, or at least that's not what she's telling police at this point.

Speaker 1:
[68:28] Right.

Speaker 2:
[68:29] So Sherri texts for this booty call around 11 AM, and then decides to go for a run. At the end of Sunrise Drive, she sees a dark blue or black SUV drive past her before it quickly stops and backs up. The vehicle had four doors and tinted windows. The female in the passenger seat called out for help, and as Sherri approached the vehicle, the woman opened the door and showed Sherri a gun. She says she has absolutely no memory of getting into the car, but she was placed on the floor of the vehicle facing the long back window. She also said she passed out, but before she did, her hands were zip tied behind her back. When she woke up, Sherri claimed that she was wearing a plain t-shirt and underwear. No bra, no socks, no pants. So for some unknown reason, the abductors changed her clothing except for her underwear, which she was still wearing when she was found 22 days later. Sherri said she was allowed to shower twice throughout her captivity, and they let her wash her underwear in the shower.

Speaker 1:
[69:41] She washed them twice.

Speaker 2:
[69:43] The entire time. And they were white, and there are photos, and they look pristine. And that's... I had, I, yeah, that to me, I was like, that feels odd. But why change all the clothes and not the underwear? That seems weird. But another weird thing from this interview is she said when she woke up, she found out they had cut her hair and put her in an adult diaper. But then she claims her hair was cut later as a punishment for trying to escape. And if they put a diaper on her, well, what happened to the underwear? And why is this literally the only reference to a diaper in your story ever? Because she never mentions it again. And she literally just said, I woke up in a t-shirt and underwear. And now suddenly it's, I woke up in a t-shirt and a diaper. So that felt weird.

Speaker 1:
[70:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[70:45] She also claimed when she first woke up in the room, her hands were now zip tied in front, not behind her back like they had been in the car. She said she had once seen a video on YouTube about how to get out of zip ties. But she said the trick didn't work. So she, quote, chewed the hell out of them until they broke. Sherri said the door to the room was dead bolted from the outside and that there were boards across the only window. So once she breaks the zip ties, she stood on the mattress and pried one of the boards off the window. Or as she put it, quote, yanked the fucker out of the wall super quick. She said she broke a nail in the process. Removing the board apparently made a loud enough noise that the abductors were alerted and they came back into the room. Sherri said as punishment, they branded her. In a later interview, Sherri said the brand happened later and that they had just burned her arm in response to that first escape attempt. I don't know which is true, possibly none of it, but I want to specifically talk about the brand. During her captivity, Sherri was branded on her right shoulder blade. She said the two women tied her to a coffee table and used a wood-burning tool to burn the letters on her skin. She graphically describes the feeling and the smell of having it done, and I can't begin to imagine how horrific that was, which is part of what makes this case so fascinating. It all feels just so unlikely and at times even made up. But when you look at the brand, you kind of think, well, she must be telling the truth. There is no way that someone would willingly allow something like that to happen to them. Well, during that March 2nd interview, Sherri was the first one to ever bring up the brand. She asked if anyone had figured out what it said. And the FBI agent interviewing her said, well, it's hard to see. So he asked Sherri what she thought it said. And she said, I think it says Exodus, but I can't read the numbers. She then added, but I don't know what that means. Well, from the best I can tell, the brand said Exodus 612, which is a Bible verse. And you know I don't read the Bible, mostly because it doesn't include any fey characters that I know of. That's debatable. Yeah. But from the best I can tell, basically, God tells Moses to go convince the Pharaoh and the Israelites to release the slaves in Egypt. No one listens to him. And in Exodus 612, Moses is frustrated. He feels like a failure. And the Internet tells me basically the whole thing kind of boils down to despite feelings of inadequacy, God doesn't give up on people because even in weakness, he remains strong. Sherri said she didn't know or understand what the brand meant. She said that the two women told her, her buyer wanted her branded because that was what he liked. So was the brand done as a punishment for trying to escape, or was it done because that's what this mysterious buyer liked? Also, this means the two women either had a buyer before Sherri was ever taken, or they found one within a matter of hours of taking her. If this is true, then why did the buyer let them keep her for another 20 plus days? Are we supposed to believe that the buyer just like backed out? And if all of this was done for money, why would they just let her go? It makes absolutely no sense. You know what else doesn't make sense? The haircut. Sherri claims her captors pulled her long ponytail as hard as they could and cut her hair off. She at one point claimed it was done after the first escape attempt, but then later said it happened another time. There was also a moment she said she woke up and her hair was cut. So she's never been consistent about that. But based on the photos of when Sherri was first found, her hair didn't seem jagged or rough. It had clearly been cut, but it looked like when a character was zero experience, that's their own hair in a TV show or movie. And then in the next scene, it looks like their hair was professionally done. Am I being too harsh? Probably, but something just feels off. But like the haircut, we can clearly see the brand was done regardless as to when or why. But Sherri has mentioned multiple times throughout her captivity as to when it was done. But maybe she was going through a trauma, so keeping track of time wasn't easy for her. But after prying the board off the window, she was given food which she says was drugged because she passed out shortly after eating it. And then when she woke up, she said she had a chain around her waist that was attached to a cord that was attached to a metal rod in the closet. Now, I'm gonna post a picture of it in the case file for better understanding. But basically, the closet had two shelves at the top and this long threaded pipe that went through both of the shelves and bolted into the ceiling. The cord was attached to a chain around her waist. It was attached to this threaded pipe. And when I say threaded, I mean, you know, it has the raised lines around it like a lag bolt. Does any of that make sense? Probably not. Just check out the case file at True Crime & Cocktails on Instagram and Facebook, and that will give you the visual representation. So during the FBI interview, Sherri said her captors did not show her any news coverage or articles about her disappearance, and they told her everyone believed she ran away, so no one was looking for her. Now, something worth noting about this particular interview is Sherri is now saying she dropped her phone when the women grabbed her. Well, she previously said she placed her phone on the ground and even pulled out hair to put with it, so that when the phone was found, people would know she was taken. Sure, we can say she got confused about whether she dropped it or placed it, but the added detail of pulling out your own hair to leave a clue seems odd. She wasn't asked about the hair. She just said, oh, I must have done that because I was in fight or flight mode. She outright said she pulled out the hair and placed it on the phone, but now she's saying she dropped the phone in the struggle. And her phone is the only sign there was a struggle at all in that location. There were no tire tracks on the road from the car stopping quickly where Sherri was spotted. There were no tracks from the car quickly fleeing the scene. There were no signs of any drag marks, no signs of any indication that there was any sort of a struggle, not a lot of like footprints in the dirt, sort of a situation like there was a big struggle. Also, at that intersection, there are five houses nearby. No one reported hearing screams, no one reported seeing anything. Then I'm like, did she make any noise? When she saw the gun? I don't know, but the entire thing is sketchy at best, which is difficult because it is my instinct to believe women when they say they were attacked. But I know I'm not alone in thinking this was sketchy because the FBI were starting to question Sherri's story. Sherri also pointed out that her captors made her use a bucket as a toilet, and she suggested to them it would make their lives easier if they put cat litter in the bucket, which they did. And they were like, yeah, that was a good idea. And that's also an odd detail to me, to be like, you know what would make my captor's lives easier? It doesn't matter. I don't think you want their lives to be easier. To be clear, I'm not victim shaming this woman. I hope anybody listening knows where this story is going, and knows why I'm maybe being a little harsher on her, but I stand that so many of these things are questionable at best. So a few months after this interview, the FBI bring in a sketch artist to work with Sherri to create sketches of these two women who abducted her. The sketches were released to the public, and while a lot of tips came in, nothing ended up panning out and the case kind of went cold. The Papinis were hounded by the media, including Chris Hansen, Dr. Oz, and Dr. Phil. Comedian Mateo Lane once referred to Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil as Oprah's horcruxes, which makes me laugh hysterically. I know that people will only get that joke if they know Harry Potter lore, but I can't hear those names without thinking of that joke. It is a top-shelf joke. So shout out to Mateo Lane for that, because god, that stayed in my brain. So even with the media breathing down their necks, the Papinis were determined to get themselves back to normal. However, it was taking some time because even though it was months after the ordeal, Sherri had some PTSD. She was having horrific nightmares, waking up in the night screaming. She couldn't sleep without all the lights on. She couldn't drive a car. She covered all their windows with blankets because she didn't want people looking inside. Sherri told Keith that her captors had drugged her food, so she refused to eat anything unless she watched it being prepared. Keith also said Sherri got triggered by the sight of strangers, the sound of a door closing, and she became terrified of just Hispanic people in general.

Speaker 1:
[81:51] Oh boy.

Speaker 2:
[81:53] So Keith got Sherri into therapy with Dr. Stephen Diggs. Keith attended every appointment because Sherri did not want to do it without him. At one appointment, Dr. Diggs suggested Sherri write a book about her experience as a way of helping her record the memories for the sake of the investigation. She wrote about the experience in a book she called 22 Days. She spoke in great detail about the abuse, the lack of food, the branding, the fact that she wasn't allowed to look her abductors in the eye and was meant to remain on all fours with her head down whenever they were in the room. She went into graphic descriptions of the pain she experienced and the smell and sound of her own burning flesh when she was being branded. It has never been released publicly. She has since put out a different book, but we get into that later. But it sounds horrific enough that honestly, if this book had come out by now, I probably wouldn't have read it. If writing the book helped her work through what happened, then good for her for finding an outlet. But where things shift for me from what a horrific experience to, what are you doing? Is how she named her captors. She didn't know their names, and she didn't want to keep referring to them as the older one and the younger one. So she chose to give her abductors names for the sake of consistency and clarity throughout the book. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense are the names she chose. Now I understand something like this, she'd have a lot of anger towards these women. According to Sherri, the older woman did most of the abuse and seemed to enjoy it, whereas the younger woman did not like doing it, and the younger woman was the one who eventually set Sherri free. So for the older woman, the main aggressor, in the book, Sherri chose the nickname Smegma.

Speaker 1:
[83:58] Disgusting.

Speaker 2:
[84:00] And for the younger one, Sherri went with Taint.

Speaker 1:
[84:07] Why?

Speaker 2:
[84:09] And look, I've never written a book, so what do I know? But the names make it incredibly hard to take this book seriously. Again, I've never read it, but to see the names Smegma and Taint is going to take me out of the seriousness of the situation that's being described. But while Sherri worked through her ordeal with writing, Keith was determined to find the people who hurt his wife. He would ask Sherri to describe the room that she had been held in, so he could draw sketches of every detail she could remember, like the room layout, the furniture that was in there, all of that. Keith made so many sketches and gave them to the FBI in the hopes it would help them find the location where Sherri had been taken. But months went by without any sign of the abductor's or the place where Sherri had been held, and police started to question whether the entire thing was even real. Even Keith had his doubts. When Sherri hosted a get together with their friends, there was an awkward moment where Sherri made everyone watch a video from a friend's doorbell camera which showed the moment the friend and her husband learned that Sherri was found alive. I'll say it, odd choice. Trying to make other people watch a moment where your friends are relieved you're alive, is for lack of better words, strange. For me, I wouldn't want to relive that moment again. Maybe this is unfair of me to say, but it just feels like she wanted to prove to other people that someone cared about her, or maybe that's how they reacted. Why didn't you guys react that way? It was just a weird, she wants to watch it, fine, but she wants to watch it with other people at a party? That also seems weird. Another odd thing that gets skipped over a lot in the story is that friends of Sherri's have stated that Sherri had a habit of disappearing, and she had done it multiple times before her disappearance. Suddenly, the story starts getting a little shakier than it had before. Keith mentioned to Sherri's therapist that he didn't fully believe the story that Sherri had told him, but Dr. Diggs said, Sherri's story has never changed and you can't fake injuries like the ones she had suffered. First, I will point out, Dr. Diggs is a professional, I am not. With that being said, well, the overall story hasn't changed. Sherri has changed minor details along the way. At first, she said she purposely placed her cell phone on the ground, then pulled out the hair and laid it on the phone the moment she saw the gun. Later, she said she dropped the phone in the struggle. These are two very different versions of the same story, if the story is simply the phone was found on the ground. Sherri was in an interview, said in an interview that when she first woke up, she discovered they'd cut her hair and put her in a diaper. Later, she said they cut her hair as a punishment for trying to escape. But she also claimed the branding was her punishment for that first escape attempt, and then changed her mind and said, oh, the branding actually happened later on. So yeah, her overall story of, I was taken by these women and tortured has not changed. But the details that led to that have changed, and it's just kind of all questionable. But Dr. Diggs was right when he said, you can't fake injuries like that. All the injuries were real. It's just a case of whether Sherri faked the identity of the person who hurt her. Some of the cuts and bruises could have easily been caused by Sherri herself. For example, Sherri has two scars on the middle of her back, about three inches long running vertically. When Sherri first started dating Keith, he asked her about the scars. She told him an ex-boyfriend stabbed her in the back. She later admitted to him, she'd actually done it to herself. When Sherri's childhood best friend, Jennifer, was asked about those same scars, Sherri said her father, Richard, held her down and cut her with an X-acto knife. Jesus. Jennifer claims that Sherri later admitted, no, she'd actually done it herself. If Jennifer and Keith, if what they're saying is true, then it's more than possible Sherri might have caused some of bruises and cuts that she had when she was found. In December 2003, Sherri's mother, Loretta, called 911 to say that Sherri was harming herself and telling everybody that Loretta was the one doing it. Two months earlier, Sherri's father, Richard, called police to say Sherri had made an unauthorized withdrawal from his checking account. He then later reported, it was just a simple misunderstanding because they'd mixed up their bank cards and Sherri had returned the money. Well, to that I say, if it was a simple mix up of bank cards and Sherri used her father's card without realizing it, so you guys had the same pin number? Because how would she have been able to withdraw money out of the account? How did she do it thinking it was hers when it was his? I don't know. Was it a simple mistake or was her father just trying to prevent Sherri from being charged? I don't know. Around that same time, Sherri's sister Sheila contacted police stating she believed Sherri had kicked in her back door while trying to break into Sherri's home. Then three years prior to that, in October 2000, Richard called police claiming Sherri vandalized his home. Richard reported it as a burglary. The official police report lists it as vandalism. So it seems like there is a long history of possible violence and lies, but causing injuries to fake a kidnapping seems pretty next level. But when it comes to the placement of the brand on her back, Sherri would not have been physically able to reach that herself. So we know that someone else absolutely did that to her. The question is, who would do that? And is there any chance that Sherri agreed to it? Well, in March 2020, police got DNA results from the clothing that Sherri had been found wearing. They got two hits, one female and one male. Sherri said, it was impossible to have a male DNA on her, because she never saw a single man the entire time in captivity. But DNA doesn't lie, so we know that a man was somehow involved. The thing about DNA testing is it takes a while, and also it's not like it comes up, oh good, John Smith's DNA, like it just doesn't work like that. So unless the DNA is already in the system, police won't get a match or any sort of identity. But once it was found that a man was involved, they went back to question Sherri about the various men she knew, hoping to find a match. It turns out Sherri had a history of texting other men who weren't her husband. We're not talking friendly chats, we're talking full on romantic texts where she would say that her marriage wasn't good, she was talking about counting down the days until she could leave him. Keith was surprised to learn that multiple text conversations had been happening without his knowledge. The first time he caught it happening was with Donovan in 2011. Then he got that postnuptial agreement. He thought he had shut down Sherri's interest in doing it again. Well, then police pointed out that Sherri had numerous men in her phone, but had changed their names to more feminine names, so that Keith wouldn't suspect a thing. An unrelated example would be if you put the men, Shane and Ilya, into your phone as Jane and Lily. Yes, it's been months and yet heated rivalry still remains in our souls.

Speaker 1:
[93:09] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[93:10] So now that Keith knows that Sherri's been seeking attention elsewhere, he admits to police that when they first started dating in 2006, Sherri told him that at the time she was married, but she said it wasn't romantic and she was getting divorced. Her first husband was in the military, and Sherri said she only married him to get on his health insurance. The first husband was a man named David Dreyfus, who says he didn't really know Sherri very well when they got married in 2002, and that throughout the entire time he do her, they never lived together. According to grunge.com, David said that Sherri made regular egg donations, which caused her a lot of health problems, so she needed insurance. So to try to help her out, he agreed to quickly marry her before he was deployed. Sherri told her parents that she and David traveled the world together. David said that wasn't true. He said they once met up in Japan, but other than that, they never actually went anywhere together. David later said Sherri had told him she was abused by her father as a child, and he later learned from mutual friends that Sherri had a bit of a reputation as a liar. When David returned from deployment, Sherri told him she'd met someone else, so he agreed to a divorce, which was made official in September 2007. Given the history of secret relationships, did Sherri know the male whose DNA was found on her clothing? Well, from the best I can tell, they never learned the identity of the female DNA. It's possible it wasn't strong enough to get an official match. I don't know, but the male DNA was found to be a match on a police database. Not a direct match, but rather the match had a familial connection to DNA that was found on Sherri. When police checked into the match, they discovered the person in the database that matched had two living biological sons. One of those sons was Sherri's ex-boyfriend James Reyes. But wait, Sherri said she was abducted by two women. She said nothing about an ex-boyfriend being involved. In fact, she outright told police she didn't see any men during her captivity. But if her ex-boyfriend was involved, could that mean that Sherri wasn't as innocent as she was claiming to be? Because if Sherri was somehow involved, then this case goes from being an abduction to being something like Gone Girl, the novel about the woman who faked her own abduction and framed her husband for it. Gone Girl was turned into a movie in 2014 starring Rosamund Pike, who was in the 2023 movie Saltburn with Jacob Elordi, who was in the 2026 movie Wuthering Heights with Margot Robbie, who was in the 2023 movie Barbie with Ryan Gosling, who was in the 2011 movie Crazy Stupid Love with Julianne Moore, who was in the 2007 movie Next with Nicolas Cage. So did Sherri Papini pull a Gone Girl and fool the world? Or is there something more going on that we don't know about? Stay tuned for our next episode where we'll talk about Sherri's ex-boyfriend and figure out what his role was in Sherri's story. Reporting for part one of this series, I'm Christy Oxbrow.

Speaker 1:
[96:59] Masterfully done. Absolutely loved it. Let's take a quick break, hit the can, and we'll be back to discuss part one of Sherri Papini on this episode of True Crime and Cocktails. Welcome back to this episode of True Crime and Cocktails. We're of course discussing Sherri Papini. Papini, Papini, let's call the whole thing off.

Speaker 2:
[97:33] Yep, you're doing great.

Speaker 1:
[97:36] Listen, now I know that we only have half the story. So obviously, for those who aren't familiar with the story too, we're not gonna get too ahead of ourselves, but I'm just gonna call it a few things. I'm gonna say to put a pin in them, you know?

Speaker 2:
[97:47] Oh, sure.

Speaker 1:
[97:48] Psychologist Hat grew up with alcoholic parents, according to her sister, there was some abuse happening, her sister was taking care of her. That's important to note, I think. Ran away to LA when she was young and had dropped out. We know that she later has this pattern of disappearing for periods of time. Again, think about all of this. Okay. I mean, the whole story is fascinating to me on so many levels, on a true crime level, on a psychology level, on all the levels. The fact that she had gotten laid off and then was like, oh, I can live off the severance, not forever. How much was this severance?

Speaker 2:
[98:37] Yeah. It was also-

Speaker 1:
[98:42] It bumped me. I get it. You got laid off, you got a severance package. Great. I understand I don't need to get a new job right away. I get that. Or I'd like to transition into staying at home. I get that. But being like, I got a severance package. I'm good. I never have to work again. Was it $5 million? What are we talking about?

Speaker 2:
[99:02] It seems weird. It also felt in the Hulu documentary that they were like, she chose to leave her job so she could become a stay-at-home mom.

Speaker 1:
[99:13] Right.

Speaker 2:
[99:13] And so I was like, okay, weird. And then they started talking about her severance. I'm like, I don't think you get a severance when you quit. So I'm like, that's weird. Then in the second documentary, they were like, oh, she got laid off. And so I'm like, why didn't they say that in the first one? Why they make it seem like she purposely was like, I'm going to stay home with the kids now. I think to make it be like, well, it's insane that she would put them in daycare. Because they really gave that strong opinion of, oh, well, she wanted to become a stay-at-home mom, but wanted the kids to still be in daycare. And then it's like, well, if you'd said, well, she got laid off, then I would have been like, okay. I mean, that makes more sense, but it was just weird to be like, yeah, so she quit her job and got this huge severance. And it's like, that's not how that works.

Speaker 1:
[100:10] No.

Speaker 2:
[100:11] It was just such a weird choice.

Speaker 1:
[100:13] Yeah. She was doing her like text cheating. That's when Keith was like, we need a post-nup. I just want to say, I had a conversation with my business manager years ago. She was like, you just have to promise me one thing. And I was like, yeah. And she's like, if you're going to get married, you have to get a prenup. It's not an option. You have to have one. I was like, okay. And she goes, because you're going to think you don't need one. And then you're going to think you can get a postnup. And you need to hear it from me. Those are worth nothing. She's like, a postnup is so hard to hold up in court. Good luck. So that's always stuck with me. That it was like, I think that there's the idea that it would be as good as a prenup. But ultimately, I think they're harder to argue.

Speaker 2:
[101:05] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[101:05] I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 2:
[101:06] I find it wild that it's even a thing.

Speaker 1:
[101:09] A postnup?

Speaker 2:
[101:10] Yeah. That you can be in there and then you're like, oh, I've changed my mind.

Speaker 1:
[101:15] I think everyone should have to have a prenup. And here's what I'm going to say. If we take the stigma out of it, because people are like, oh, it means, you know, whatever. No, if you just made it that it's like, no, everybody has to have one and it can be as detailed or non-detailed as you like. But you need to have a document in place before you enter a legally binding contract tying you to someone. There should be something that is in place, even if it's as simple as what happens if you have children and then you split or what happens. You know what I mean? Like, I just think if they made it mandatory, then it's like, I think that protects women. There I said it, because I think there was so much pressure that it's like, you know, in so many different ways, it's like if we all had to do them ahead of time, mandatory, then there's no emotion attached to it. Then it's not that anybody is trying to say that anybody's not really in it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[102:14] Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[102:16] You're entering a business deal, so why isn't there any laid out details? The ins and outs of the contract are to have and to hold from this day forward and sickness and health. That's the only details of your contract. I'm going to tell you something. That's a shitty contract. You need to have more things in detail. I stand by it. I stand by it.

Speaker 2:
[102:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[102:40] I'm just going to say it. This is the final thing I'm going to say. I think about Kelly Clarkson. Okay. I think about Kelly Clarkson and how that man, rest in peace before he died. When they split though, he took so much of her money that he was absolutely in my opinion not entitled to. I think it's disgusting.

Speaker 2:
[103:00] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[103:02] That's all I'll say.

Speaker 2:
[103:03] Especially since they found out he was taking money that wasn't his from her to begin with during the marriage.

Speaker 1:
[103:11] It's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[103:12] She deserves better than that.

Speaker 1:
[103:13] Absolutely. Again, he has passed on, so may he rest. But you know what I'm saying? It's just like shit like that burns, it boils my blood. And I just think if you may prenup mandatory, not that you have to get a lawyer involved, just that there's like a form you have to fill out or whatever. We should have more things in writing before getting married.

Speaker 2:
[103:33] There.

Speaker 1:
[103:33] I'll get off my soapbox. Anyway, I can't even find myself in my notes. Here we go. Okay, you talked about Heather Carpenter and that her killer is eligible for parole in 2036. I wrote, lock them up.

Speaker 2:
[103:48] 100%.

Speaker 1:
[103:49] Oh, he had also done previous sex crime. So I will tack on a few extra years. How about you just keep them in there? This is the new thing, folks, and I know I've been saying this on the show for some time, but my new thing is sex crime, jail for life, period. I think it is absolutely barbaric that we do anything otherwise. Lock them up, because guess what? You're going to save women's lives if you do it.

Speaker 2:
[104:15] You're doing great.

Speaker 1:
[104:16] Well, and then the story about Tara Smith and Troy Zink, and then it was like, he had guns in his studio, which was illegal because he was a felon. Again, it's like, lock them up. Now, Tara and Sherri looking alike, both last seen jogging, it definitely felt like the same MO, so that makes sense to me, especially if it's in the same area, that they would go that way. You mentioned Yolo County, and I just wanted to say, is that where you only live once? See you never. See you never.

Speaker 2:
[104:53] You're doing great.

Speaker 1:
[104:55] I think it's interesting that on the 911 call, the guy was like, you were kicked out of your boyfriend's car? No, I was kidnapped. Like, how was there such a disparity in communication there?

Speaker 2:
[105:07] It does feel like an odd choice, because I'm like, has he ever been interviewed? Because I want to know, where did he get that? Did he see her get out of a car? Did he just make an assumption that a woman crying on the side of the road got kicked out by her boyfriend? Like, was this at that level? Or it just felt so weird that that was where his brain went?

Speaker 1:
[105:33] Well, also knowing, didn't she have a chain around her and zip ties on her and stuff like that?

Speaker 2:
[105:38] She had zip ties on her wrists and then a chain around her waist.

Speaker 1:
[105:44] So again, I don't know. I just feel like it's like, if even if she had been kicked out of her boyfriend's car, like, my God, this woman is clearly, she's in restraints. Anyway, the detail that the bridge of her nose was broken, she's cut, she's burned, she's branded, she's 87 pounds. Obviously, she's hysterical. You know, it's interesting to me because the detail of the neo-Nazi website, and I remember this from watching the documentaries now myself, it's interesting because it was her name, it was her picture. She claims that somebody else was like trying to troll her or something by doing that. But it's interesting that she's telling the story in that post, allegedly, about getting into a fight with specifically Latinos, right? Or Latinos.

Speaker 2:
[106:37] I believe so, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[106:40] And then she's kind of painted this picture of these two captors of hers, of hers being Latin women, the details of the tortillas, the black beans, the rice. It does all feel a little icky, like it does feel like a weird stereotype mariachi music, right? Like it just is all feeling like a caricature a little bit. And I think it's interesting, skipping ahead for a second, I think it's interesting, psychologist hat, that if she does have these kind of stereotypical or negative views about Latinos, which if she submitted to the Neo-Nazi website, safe to say, again, we have not confirmed that she did or that it wasn't someone pretending to be her, but you know what I'm saying. It's interesting that she has an ex whose last name is Reyes, who I'm assuming is Latino. That's interesting to me where it's like, where does that lie for you on the spectrum, Sherri, of where you're at because it feels like you're leaning towards a pretty not great place.

Speaker 2:
[107:48] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[107:49] So I just think that that again, this is all things to put a pin in for next week. Don't remember Myspace, get out of town.

Speaker 2:
[107:57] Yeah. Get out of town. It's again, I get if someone's like, hey, what was your password? Sure. But did you have one or not?

Speaker 1:
[108:08] You know.

Speaker 2:
[108:09] You know.

Speaker 1:
[108:10] And you know.

Speaker 2:
[108:11] I think if she said yes, it would have been like, well, we were going to hunt it down. I don't know if they can look at it or not. Who knows anymore. But I just feel like saying I don't know was her way to cover it.

Speaker 1:
[108:25] There was a site someone had made a few years ago, and if you typed in, if you just knew your handle or whatever, it would pop up. I also found my old website that way. It was called Wacky World of Lauren. Anyway.

Speaker 2:
[108:46] Can we reinstate that?

Speaker 1:
[108:48] Wacky World of Lauren? Yeah. Well, we can look for it later. It may still be up. I saw it a few years ago and I was like, oh my God, there she is trying to learn how to code. Get out of town, Lauren Ash. Okay. I just wrote down what was the motive of these two women. Then you were talking about how she was sold to a police officer, which you asked, then why did they let her go? Her injuries were so bad, the police believed her, everyone believed her. Why wouldn't you? It feels impossible to sustain those kinds of injuries, self-inflicted, et cetera. But then if we're to believe this story, if we're to believe that this Latina duo had an argument and the younger one decided to let you go, first of all, why did it take 22 days for you to be delivered to your purchaser? Were you taken and then put on the black market for someone to buy? Why would you cut a blonde woman's long hair? She was blonde at the time, right?

Speaker 2:
[109:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[109:49] I'm going to be super gross. But again, if you're advertising that you've got this person to sell, which is an absolute nightmare, I wouldn't think that a haphazard haircut would be helping your cause. It doesn't make any sense. Again, like, why are they holding her for that long? Why did they just let her go? If there was money involved, why would they be willing to let her go? And then the detail about the kitty litter stands out to me, because if we are to believe her story is true, it sounds like these women do this regularly, in which case they probably would already know the kitty litter trick. Like, why give that detail? It's just a weird thing to include.

Speaker 2:
[110:26] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[110:27] And then, of course, there's all the, like, inconsistencies that come up about, like, the underwear versus the diaper and stuff like that. And, and, and again, why? I, there's just a lot of questions that don't make any sense to me in terms of what their black market business is and involves. Oh, sure. It just doesn't make sense to me, like. Was she being watched and targeted ahead of time and then taken with, like, the buyer pre-ready to go? Or again, was she taken? And then what's the selling mechanism? Wouldn't she have memories of having photos taken of her by these women? Or some sort, like, or being filmed? Like, is it just a description? Is this on the dark web? Like, how does this work? Like, and I know that she wouldn't necessarily have all those details. But again, it just feels like there's some connective tissue missing in the story, in my opinion. Thank you for calling midday sex a nooner. That is the funniest thing I've heard in a few hours. Man, oh man, you were making me laugh today earlier. The fact that she brought up the brand and then was like, I don't know what it says. Do you? And they're like, no. She's like, I think it says Exodus. Like, it really feels like you're, but I don't know what that means and I don't know what the numbers are. And then the fact that the Bible verse kind of connects to things, it does feel again like it's like, are you writing a novel here, lady? Like, are you living some weird fantasy? Yeah, it's odd because by the way, you know, for what it's worth, again, we're not getting ahead of ourselves. There is still a part two. But psychologically speaking, she does have this pattern of telling people, like, I was abused, like my father abused me.

Speaker 2:
[112:25] Right.

Speaker 1:
[112:25] I was stabbed in the back by my father. I was stabbed in the back by my boyfriend. You know, these kinds of things like she seems like someone who has used stories of abuse, whether they're true or not, again, by her own admission, she was saying those things happened and then she was saying they didn't. That doesn't mean they didn't necessarily happen. I mean, again, I know her story changed because again, was it her father? Was it her boyfriend that stabbed her? The bottom line is, is that it feels like she's sharing things, whether they're true or false, based in trauma, trying to get sympathy is a big thing. So it's interesting again, when we're looking at this broader thing, where the cops are even like, well, she's badly injured, like she's 87 pounds, like clearly we have to believe her. And first of all, how sad that it's like, it takes that to believe women. But secondly, it does just feel so extreme, right? It's like, man, if you're writing the story, you don't need to, like, why do you need the extra attention of the Exodus and what the Bible passage means? And like, you've already got the attention, you've already got, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, again, these details that then may come back to biter, it's interesting because it's like, you didn't need them, lady.

Speaker 2:
[113:47] You didn't need them.

Speaker 1:
[113:48] Keep it simple, stupid.

Speaker 2:
[113:50] Yeah, I keep wondering was the purpose of the brand, was that to take things up a level of extreme? Because that's not something you typically hear in like a kidnapping type thing. But was it also because of all the injuries, it's the one that you're like, I mean, she couldn't do that to herself.

Speaker 1:
[114:13] Yeah, it definitely feels like there had to be some level of that. To me, Taint and Shmegma is the name of a rap duo nobody wants. Wanting to see the ring video of her friends learning she was alive, wanting to show a group that video, again, this is just we're building a psychological profile for next week, folks. Let's twist again, we're just going to keep a pin in all these details. The fact that Keith, her husband, said to her doctor, I don't know that I believe her story, which I defend him for, regardless of whether her story was true or false, it is fucking, it is a tall tale, right? It is a big story.

Speaker 2:
[115:03] So I think to swallow.

Speaker 1:
[115:05] It is absolutely fair. Even if the story is 100 percent true, I think it is fair for someone to say privately to a therapist, I don't know what I believe her. And then him, the therapist, I understand defending his patient saying, her story's never changed. Don't know about that. But once again, you can't fake the injuries. I get it. I get why. I get that. Did they have the same pin? I mean, my mother and I had the same pin number for years. We actually still might.

Speaker 2:
[115:39] No kidding.

Speaker 1:
[115:40] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[115:42] Was it just easier? Because if one of you forgets, the other one knows?

Speaker 1:
[115:47] I don't remember. I think, yeah. I think at the time, it was like this would just be easier. And I know that there was a period of time where I got a different bank card, and then I chose my own number. But then truthfully, as an adult, I got a card, I went back to our shared pin. I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[116:06] You go where you're familiar.

Speaker 1:
[116:07] Go where you're familiar. So anyway.

Speaker 2:
[116:09] I've never purposely chosen a pin. I kept.

Speaker 1:
[116:12] You keep the random one?

Speaker 2:
[116:15] Well, I guess no, I should walk that back. The first one when I got a random one, I've just chosen the random one ever since that same one, but I didn't pick anything special.

Speaker 1:
[116:27] Right.

Speaker 2:
[116:28] That might stay in there better. But I guess the random one is now special.

Speaker 1:
[116:37] Now it's a part of you.

Speaker 2:
[116:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[116:39] I got one more hot take before I wrap it up. And this one is polarizing. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[116:46] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[116:48] I know I want to preface this by saying, I know what I'm about to say might sound problematic, but just go with me for a second. Problematic is a concept, not cancelable. We live in a world now where DNA and familial DNA is like solving crimes. And it's like solving crimes from decades ago, right?

Speaker 2:
[117:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[117:14] Because you made a point earlier in this episode where you said, they collect DNA, they run the DNA. It's going to still take time before they find a match. They got to run through police databases. Well, what if the person isn't in a police database? They got to run to do one of the familial searches. Maybe it's not in there. Much like I've said, I think every, every marriage should involve a prenup, which I stand by and I don't give a shit. The world we live in, and I know people are going to be like, Lauren Ash, that's absolutely preposterous. Why don't we all give DNA samples at birth? There's a record of everybody. Because I think if that technology had existed 100 years ago, of course it wouldn't have, they would have been doing it.

Speaker 2:
[117:57] And- Oh, sure.

Speaker 1:
[117:58] I understand why people could be like, I don't want the government having my DNA. I get that, loud and clear. Don't have to even explain to me why. Noted. I will also say, on the flip, if there was a database where your DNA was stored and you knew that if you committed a crime, your DNA would be found and easily connected to you, is that a crime deterrent? I think it probably would be.

Speaker 2:
[118:29] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[118:31] For victims and the families of victims, it would sure be nice knowing that everybody's DNA is in a system, that you don't even have to wait, that there isn't going to have to be a search. You just run it and bam, there you go. Now, I know that I'm describing a world that feels like a Big Brother run and whatever and maybe a hyper police state. Is that a good thing?

Speaker 2:
[118:53] Is it a bad thing? My fear is just saying, okay, so say my DNA is in this thing. Well, what if someone uses my DNA to put on a crime scene somewhere? They're like, well, her DNA is there. It must have been her because they have access to it.

Speaker 1:
[119:10] I guess I just feel like it can't that already happen.

Speaker 2:
[119:14] Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[119:19] I think all the time, like I've seen people like, you know, you clean out your brush and there's like a ball of hair?

Speaker 2:
[119:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[119:25] I've seen in the world a couple of times, but I love that they've stuck with me, like a ball of hair blowing on the street. And I go, better hope that doesn't get tied to a crime. And I think about it every time. I guess what I'm hearing is maybe DNA evidence would become less helpful or less of a slam dunk if it's like there's so much room for error or there's so many other things that, you know, there's so many planting cases that are going on. I guess that makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[119:58] I guess maybe, what about this? What if, last pitch, your DNA goes into a system, but it's encrypted. So it's not your name and birthday and everything is connected to that DNA sample, but it's encrypted unless a crime has been committed and the DNA is uploaded into the system. And then if there's a match, then you become, then the information becomes available. That's the answer.

Speaker 1:
[120:28] Okay. A couple of things. One, like the passion.

Speaker 2:
[120:37] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[120:38] My only concern then, and I can't believe this is the words I'm using, hackers.

Speaker 2:
[120:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[120:49] I mean, we've all seen live free or die hard.

Speaker 2:
[120:53] Yeah. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1:
[120:54] Fire sale, but with DNA? Or they can, like, I'll take all these encrypted DNA and match them to people, and them were committing crimes. I don't know. But two, I guess now when I feel like my brush needs to be cleaned out, I just burn the whole thing. I guess that's what I'm learning.

Speaker 2:
[121:19] I mean, again, someone could go through your trash, pull that out, take your hair, put it on a crime scene. I don't think that's that hard to pull off. You've only got to be collecting people's garbage for what, a month? I shouldn't have this much caffeine this late in the day.

Speaker 1:
[121:37] So I'm just burning everything?

Speaker 2:
[121:44] Yeah, I think at this point, that is the safest answer.

Speaker 1:
[121:51] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[121:52] On that note, folks, tune in next week for the dramatic conclusion to the Sherri Papini tale. We will be bringing you part two. Cannot wait for that. Listen, fantastic work thus far. I think this is great as a two-parter. I'm glad we made that call earlier. 12 out of 10, fantastic as always.

Speaker 1:
[122:10] Bless you. I will say for people who don't know where this story goes, I am concerned I'm going to come across as harsh, but I promise, just hold off, wait till the end of the second episode, and then you can decide if I was too harsh or not.

Speaker 2:
[122:28] Spoiler alert, she wasn't. We thank you, dear listeners, for joining us on this wild ride. If you haven't already, give us a follow on the socials on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube at True Crime & Cocktails, on Twitter, and on Detectives. If you'd like some bonus content, go over to patreon.com/truecrime&cocktails to learn more about our subscription-based service over there. And the only place, of course, for True Crime, True Crew and Cock, True Crew and Cock, True Crime and Cocktails merch is, of course, truecrewmerch.com. So check that out as well if you're interested. And we still have a few days on the pre-save campaign for my next single FAFO. Go to laurenash.band. You can check out the FAFO merch and you can pre-save the song there, which is hugely helpful for me. And I deeply appreciate your help, as always. Christy, do you want to say good night to the people?

Speaker 1:
[123:11] Oh, good night, Philadelphia. Enjoy round one.

Speaker 2:
[123:19] Good night, Nick Lachey. I'll be dreaming of you.

Speaker 3:
[123:31] Hi, I am Mandy Moore.

Speaker 4:
[123:33] Sterling K.

Speaker 2:
[123:33] Brown.

Speaker 4:
[123:34] And I'm Chris Sullivan. And we host the podcast That Was Us, now on Headgum.

Speaker 3:
[123:39] Each episode, we're gonna go into a deep dive from our show This Is Us. We're gonna go episode by episode. We're also gonna pepper in episodes with different guest stars and writers and casting directors. Are we gonna cry?

Speaker 1:
[123:53] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[123:53] A little bit.

Speaker 1:
[123:54] Are we gonna laugh? Often.

Speaker 4:
[123:55] A lot. A whole lot. That's what I'm hoping, man. Listen to That Was Us on your favorite podcast app or watch full video episodes on YouTube or Spotify. New episodes every Tuesday.