transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:49] Hey, it's Brooke at Good Inside. A quick note before we get started. This week, we're bringing back one of the most beloved episodes in our catalog, Your Motherhood is Only as Powerful as Your Personhood. A conversation between Dr. Becky and poet and author Cleo Wade. We're doing it right now for a reason. If you ever had a hard night with your baby and caught yourself thinking, I'm doing this wrong or why does this feel so hard when everyone else seems fine? You already know that the problem isn't really the hard moment. It's the story that follows it. That quiet voice that turns a rough night into a verdict about who you are as a parent. So we built a brand new podcast around that exact experience. It's called Rattled because it's for those moments when new parenthood shakes you. Every episode, we go into the honest, disorienting, often beautiful mess of new parenthood. Because sometimes you just need to hear someone else name the thing you're feeling. Alongside the podcast, we're opening up something much bigger, a whole new home for the baby years inside the Good Inside app. Sleep support, lactation expertise, workshops, tools, all of it designed around one core belief, that a parent who feels held can hold their baby. That when you feel sturdy, everything else gets easier. Which is why today's episode still hits the way it does. Because Cleo Wade said it perfectly, your motherhood is only as powerful as your personhood. She and Dr. Becky go deep on what it actually feels like to lose yourself in the baby stage and what the path back looks like. Subscribe to Rattled by Good Inside, link is in the show notes, and share it with new parents and parents to be in the life and now Dr. Becky and Cleo Wade.

Speaker 1:
[02:29] In your recent book, Remember Love, which is so exciting, you really focus on recovery and you talk about really reclaiming yourself. Let's start with that.

Speaker 3:
[02:45] Well, as I was writing this book, I kind of in a way that was very different than any other kind of way I approached writing before, is I really felt like, okay, I kind of tried to place myself back to moments in my life where I felt that I was stumbling around in the dark looking for a light and realized I had to turn it on within myself. I tried to figure out how to follow those breadcrumbs. Remember that no matter how faint that kind of light feels, it is still there. There's this one page that actually started out as a joke, really, where I write about how there's the old Motel 6 commercial that's like, we'll leave the light on for you. But that actually in some of my toughest moments, whether it was really contemplating repacing my life, when I found that my life was moving at a pace where I couldn't find or access freedom and joy, even though I was attaining a lot of exterior goals. And so when I felt that I lost track of myself, or I felt that I couldn't feel like myself in moments of whether that was postpartum depression or high, high key anxiety, I'd kind of hear that voice, we'll leave the light on for you. And I really kind of would always think, how did I, you know, the light has been left on in there somewhere for me. And so much of this book is how I journeyed back and finding it, whether it was through hearing somebody say something, like the two words, remember love, that I'd heard, and then using those as an anchor to kind of change my thinking around things. And as you know, because I think you teach this so well, is that all change starts with your inner dialogue. The first change you make is the new thought you take.

Speaker 1:
[04:39] That's so powerful. I want to ask you more about that, I don't want to zoom too far past something you said, and you said something, then you also said postpartum depression. You didn't say these things totally connected, so I just want to see if I got it right. You talked about the loss of freedom and joy while you were seemingly taking off maybe various accomplishments. And the thing I was thinking about before you even said postpartum was so much of the experience of becoming a mom for the first time is like, it does feel like an accomplishment. A lot of people like, I did this, I had this baby, I'm supposed to do this, this is like a milestone in my life, this is a huge developmental leap for me, I'm an adult in a different way. And yet, having a baby in terms of freedom and joy in those early days, I mean, are not there.

Speaker 3:
[05:36] Well, and here's the thing, gratitude that comes from a place of guilt is not gratitude. So you talk about this in a great way in your TED Talk when you're saying, you're joking about your son and you're saying like, and if you could just be grateful for this, but like when gratitude is attached to guilt, it's not gratitude, it's something else. And so what happens with postpartum depression is every time you're trying to get to gratitude, you're doing it from a place of guilt.

Speaker 1:
[06:06] Can you dive into that?

Speaker 3:
[06:08] You say, I can't, I should be grateful. I mean, I have a baby, I have a this, I have a that. It's, whether the baby's healthy, I'm healthy, I'm... And so you think that you're trying to get out of postpartum depression, but you're actually, because it's, you're reaching from gratitude, from guilt, you're always at a deficit, you can never get above ground. And so the thing is, is that gratitude is only ever attached to the actual present moment and no stories. And that's what makes it spiritual. That's what makes it magical. However you want to look at it, that's what makes it that thing that's very, very, very present. And that's why, as you know, most shrinks like to say, if you're thinking about the past, you're depressed, if you're worried about the future, you're anxious, but if you're in the moment, you're present because in the present is where we access gratitude. It has no stories. It actually is just that like, the sun still came up, the sun comes up, I'm okay, I can be okay, I believe okayness is possible. There's gratitude there.

Speaker 1:
[07:17] Where did the guilt come from postpartum?

Speaker 3:
[07:20] I think the guilt comes from you want it what you have. Why isn't that making you feel, the way you feel is wrong, right? And that shame, that's guilt, and then they're kind of breeded, I feel. You're so happy you have your baby. Why aren't you feeling like yourself? And I think also, the hard part is that everyone tells you a baby changes everything. And I think we don't know how to wrap our heads around how much motherhood changes you, and that change is just hard. And it's funny, I was just saying this to a friend. It's like, the act of change is easy. The feelings that accompany change are so difficult. So, you know, writing your signature is easy. The feelings that come with signing your divorce papers are impossible. You could even go so far as to say that the labor, the childbirth, which is not easy, but it's actually easier, that change of the baby coming into the world is easier than the feelings that accompany having a child. And so I think that there's a lot that, you know, the feelings that come with the change that happens when you go into parenthood, I think that's something where there's not quite enough space held for us to live in the contradictions and complications.

Speaker 1:
[08:47] We kind of think we should have a much narrower range of feelings.

Speaker 3:
[08:50] So we don't even have spaces for it, right? We don't even have a space to say, you know, we're kind of, that's opening up more and more. But I mean, we barely have a space to say, like, what we actually do when we're breastfeeding. You know, you and I talked about that with our friends of, like, I'd be like, you know what, everyone was like, yeah, I breastfed for 10 months, but nobody told me they were supplementing. And I kept being like, when I had no milk, I'd be like, how are they doing this? Like, some is coming out, but there's not enough to sustain this kid. And I'm like, what the hell? Yes, we all deserve our privacy. Yes, we should all walk the line between privacy and secrecy and offering help to each other, I think.

Speaker 1:
[09:31] But the stories we tell each other actually really impact the range of feelings we believe we should have.

Speaker 3:
[09:38] Big time. I mean, anytime someone says to me, I'm struggling as a new mom, how were the early days for you? The first thing I say is it's so damn hard. And so start there. Start with the honesty. Like start with, like a friend had texted me earlier today, telling me something that was really hard. She was going through and she was like, I'm crushed, but I'm okay. And I said, actually, just start with, I'm not okay. This is really hard. I'm so sad because the honest moment of I'm not okay is actually the only way to get to okayness. Like you just can't skip the step. You just prolong the ability to land in okayness.

Speaker 1:
[10:21] I'm thinking about my answer when people said, what were the early days like? I said, completely unenjoyable. That's what they were like for me. And I think some people actually go back and forth between enjoyable and unenjoyable. But I definitely was kind of in the group of like the baby stage is, I don't know what I'd say. It's not for me. It's not my favorite. It's not where I thrive. I didn't love it. You know, I really, really didn't. And yeah, every time I tell someone that, and now I guess I'm telling everyone who listens. Yeah, the baby stage was unenjoyable for me. I'm not even calving on it. Period. Done. Right? Hopefully that means at least one more person saying, oh, like, I guess this is an okay way to experience the stage. And it doesn't mean this is the type of parent I am. This is not the way I'm going to always feel about my child. This doesn't mean anything about me or my kid or our connection. It means, like you said, actually, in this moment, this moment is unenjoyable, and there happens to be a lot of these moments for this stage.

Speaker 3:
[11:19] And between the sleep deprivation and the hormones and everything else, you don't feel like yourself. And there was real pain, there was for me. There was real pain in feeling like, I wish my kid could get to know the real me. Like, and I wrote in Remember Love, you know, it's, I thought I knew how to love myself, but I know, I knew how to love myself when I felt like myself. It's really hard to love a stranger, especially when change has turned you into the stranger. And so for me, I was using the tools to keep the person I knew how to love maintained. Like that was the self-care toolkit I was using, and I didn't realize that I would have to radically change how I was supported, how I gave myself grace, the thought patterning I had around productivity, and so many things in order to actually give myself care when I didn't feel like myself.

Speaker 1:
[12:18] You're so talented in using words to describe very, very complex, in some ways, like non-verbal experiences that we have. So I know there's a lot of people listening who are experiencing, have experienced postpartum depression. How would you describe what that felt like or what it was experienced like by you? Because I think your words, they do, they just have so much power to help people feel understood.

Speaker 3:
[12:49] Well, I think first and foremost, I'd say that no matter what my experience is like, yours is unique to you, and I think that really loving yourself in a way that allows for you to witness how you feel at any given moment without judging it is how you can understand what you're going through and ask for the right help for what you're going through. And so, you know, I hate to kind of generalize the feeling of postpartum, but I can say that I think postpartum depression is not so dissimilar than other types of depression or periods of depressive waves where you really do feel that how you are in relationship with yourself and those around you is just off. And you're wondering why things that usually either bring you joy or bring you ease do not. And you feel very disconnected from the things that make you feel like yourself and light you up. And I think we all have those kind of little sparkly things where we could be, you know, it's like the thing that makes you laugh out of nowhere or the thing that kind of is that like, you know, triggers or whatever that built in happiness. I do feel that we all have and have access to kind of lights up. I think it's just a lot harder for those things to light up. And it's really hard to hear anyone rationally tell you why you shouldn't feel that way. So I think that one of the ways I think we know we, it's kind of a surefire sign we could use a little support or help, is if we feel a little triggered by somebody saying, this might help. And if we feel like the idea of help feels almost like an affront to what we're going through, that's to me how I always know that I'm like, I need support. I need a shift because someone's offering me a tool and it's pissing me off. And like that's just, why would that be something that's pissing me off?

Speaker 1:
[15:06] There's such a powerful nuance there. I think that's a really important reflection because if it's from the right person who you really feel like truly does love you and has your best interest, there's something about the lifting out of this kind of emotional state you're in that makes you angry, right? And I think the nuance is we all need to hear from people and we need to say to ourselves, I'm allowed to feel this way. My feelings are real. My feelings are real. My feelings are valid. I'm not making this up. I believe myself. And, right, that's on one side, that like validation. And, yeah, it could be a good idea to get some tools and skills. Not because my feelings aren't real, but because this is not a great way to feel on ending days.

Speaker 3:
[15:50] And also because the people in your life who love you, no matter how much they love you, they don't see the invisible churning inside of you. And I think that's what creates the anger. So I think you have this part of you that's churning to like get out of this and you're treading in water and you're like, I don't want to feel this way. It doesn't feel good. I don't feel good. I don't feel like myself. This isn't working. Nothing's working. When does it lift? How does it lift? How does this, like, how do we think again? When will I laugh really hard again? When will I identify with anything other than tired? Do you know? And so I think that there's no one sees that in the, in your head and in your heart all day long, those thoughts are on a loop and they just rumble inside of you. And it's a pretty, I feel like, kind of violent feeling because they're just churning and churning. So that's why I think we get triggered by someone saying, would you like to try this? Or maybe you should try talking to your therapist twice a week instead of once. You're like, because in your head, you're like, aren't I doing enough? You have no idea because they do, they have no idea. Because I do feel that our bodies do desperately want to get out of the funks we get in. I feel that spiritually, you know.

Speaker 1:
[17:01] So, how did you get out?

Speaker 3:
[17:04] So, you know, I had this real, why I called the book Remember Love is I tell the story in the beginning of I'm in the bathtub. I'm at the height of my postpartum depression with Memphis, my first daughter. And I'm trying to do the things you do when you're sad, which are like, what would make me feel better? So I'm like, I'm going to get in the bathtub. The bathtub makes me feel better. I'm going to put on a podcast. I'm going to put on Tara Brock. Tara Brock makes me feel better. But I'm still kind of in this fog, right? And so I'm like kind of going through the motions because what I at least know is, you don't feel good, do the things that make you feel better. And I actually have even seen in my life that you can fake it till you make it a little bit with that. It doesn't heal, like you're not going to listen to one podcast or person and it heal everything. But if you do the things that help enough, you see results, I find. So I'm in the tab and I can't, I'm kind of listening and kind of nod. And then I hear her say, remember love. And it was as if someone yanked me from the fog, not the depression, but from the fog and put me in almost this bubble of clarity, where I could clearly understand that it was time for me to start figuring it out. And those words, remember love. It was two words and that's what I needed. Because what I wasn't doing was remembering love and how I spoke to myself every day. Because every day I only identified what I felt was wrong. And I would never do that to a friend. And I realized that for myself, it was always like, why can't you think? Why can't you move faster? Why couldn't you get that all done today? Why aren't you spending enough time with your kid? Why aren't you able to get it together to look cute at dinner? Why don't you want it? And it was really toxic. And so I got in a Post-it note and I wrote the words, please remember love on it. Because even saying please was the first step of kindness I needed. And once I could really identify that first and foremost, I like was not remembering love within. All of a sudden, I felt that I could access and really use the tools. I could slow down, I could ask for extra help. I didn't end up having to or choosing to have medication to help me, but I know so many people that that has helped. But I could just start actually giving self-care to this new person. And I wasn't trying to tell her she was wrong. I wasn't trying to shame her. I wasn't trying to. And I could actually say, OK, what do you need? How can I give it to you in a loving way?

Speaker 1:
[20:03] I recently traveled to Switzerland for work, and I have to say, the home I booked on Airbnb really shaped the whole trip. It overlooked the mountaintops, and there was this sweet little porch where I could sit in the morning and drink my coffee. If you were following me during that time on Instagram, you saw me post from that exact location. Also, there was just this incredible coffee machine that somehow made my morning routine feel intact, even across the ocean. And I was also just able to get sunshine before a full day of conversations. All those quiet moments in the morning, they grounded me. Oh, and this touch I just loved was I got three bars of Swiss chocolate left by my host, and I can confirm they were all gone by the end of my three days' day. When I travel, I don't just want a place to sleep. I want a place to land, a living room where I can decompress, and a space where I can do bedtime over FaceTime and feel at home when I'm away from home. That's why I book homes on Airbnb. It helps me find places that feel grounding, not just convenient. Because when where you stay feels good, everything else feels a little better too. One thing I notice with parents all the time, and honestly with myself too, is how often we all just feel depleted. I mean, parenting asks a lot of us. We're making decisions all day, navigating big feelings and keeping everything moving. It's draining. I want to tell you something I do that both helps me stay hydrated, but honestly also feels like a form of self-care. I always have an Element drink mix in my bag. Instead of just carrying snacks for my kids, I go to this when it's 3 p.m., 4 p.m., 8 a.m. and I'm tired and it's something for me that helps me feel taken care of and honestly makes me feel better. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix that helps support hydration without the sugar and artificial ingredients you'll find in so many sports drinks. It is truly part of my daily routine and it makes a difference. If you want to try it, Element is offering a free 8-count sample pack of their most popular flavors with any purchase. Just go to drinklmnt.com/goodinside. To me, I always say this about mantras, and I love them for kids too, is like, they take moments that are so big where your anxiety and thoughts, they just expand and expand and expand, and it gives you something so simple and small to repeat. There's a mastery to it, right? So it really puts a boundary around these really overwhelming feelings we have.

Speaker 3:
[22:32] For no other reason, it's a go-to to redirect, and we need those. We should not think that our mind is always going to work in our benefit. I think that we are unbelievably absorbent beings, and anyone who lives with children sees that. You see that all of a sudden, your daughter moves her shoulder in a way you do, or you never taught them to do that or ask them to do that. So I think when you realize that we are absorbing in a world that we haven't even quite figured out how to create this world that allows us to love ourselves with ease. So as we are moving in a world and absorbing that, our minds are like seeing a billboard, seeing this, seeing a person on social media, seeing this, and it is triggering things in our brain to think and go and move in a certain way, and a mantra is an anchor. It will yank you from that, and you can actually have discipline around a mantra to, as we said in the beginning, make the first change by choosing the next thought. I don't think there's anything that does that better than a mantra. I just don't.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] I totally agree. Now, you said this question like, what do I need? Can I give myself what I need? I would love you to give some examples because I know some people are like, I don't know what I need. How is this to know what I need? It can feel so big and pressuring, but how did you walk yourself through that?

Speaker 3:
[24:03] You can first start with the basics of what does anybody need? What does blanket kindness look like? My kid is running and falls and scrapes her knee. What does she need? She does not need someone to say, just get up and walk it off. They do not need that. You'd be surprised how often we're doing that to ourselves. And so I think to say, like, if you don't quite know what's the exact need or what you think you should even be allowed to need, you know, one of the things I really talk about a lot in this book, and I think the part of the book that's called Worthy Rebellions is there's a poem in it that says, you call yourself the glue, but while you hold it all together, who is holding you? And in that, so much of that is that we find pride in being needless. I need nothing. Wow, aren't I great. Aren't I lovable? And I think first, saying to yourself, everyone should be allowed to need something, especially me, because you're saying it to yourself. So you say, everyone should, what are mine, what would anyone need? And so, and any, any single person needs to, needs to be affirmed that their experience is worthy of tenderness, time and attention. Every single person needs that. I don't care what you're going through, whether you're at, you know, trauma or hard time, is it two or a ten? You need that. And so start there.

Speaker 1:
[25:44] Also, I find a lot of people start a self care routine through getting themselves water to drink in the morning. And again, I think there's something like, what do I need? I don't know. Everybody needs water. Everybody needs hydration, right? And it seems kind of random or very simple, but it's actually really not, because you're just getting in a habit of treating yourself as if you need to give yourself things, right? And if you can start that with water or a mantra, it actually doesn't really matter which you start, because you're just starting the practice.

Speaker 3:
[26:17] Rest, sunlight. There's a part of the book where I talk about how, you know, I just like, I don't know, but I know enough to give myself cool water on my face, sunlight on my back for a minute, putting my feet in the earth. I think that there are these things, and so much of kind of what I felt that also really helped me during my postpartum was kind of just this remembering or reconnecting to, I think sometimes we just build so many things with our hands, and we're making so many manmade things that we really forget that our nature is so much more akin to the natural world than it is to like any algorithm or computer or anything else. So I really do feel that we are built to break and repair and kind of bloom. And then we are seasonal and the feelings that come through us are seasonal. And we do have these icy winters and things do melt and it freaking rains and it rains and it rains and it rains. And then something beautiful happens. It's the best sunset you've ever seen in your life. Like, and that is the nature of our lives. And I really felt that one of the first things I really did during, well, while I was like, what do I need? And I was like, I need to go on a walk. And every day, no matter what, I went on a walk and I didn't, you know, I kind of put music on but put everything else on airplane mode. And I just noticed around me, I just said like, I just need to like, I want to notice what every tree is doing in my neighborhood. And that actually helped me so much because there'd be days where I'd go on a walk and I'd see a tree that was holding a brown leaf and a blossoming flower at the same time. And the leaf was about to fall and the flower was just coming in and they were both hanging there at the same time. And I just thought this is us, like this is who we are. And I felt that so deeply and that's why nature is such a heavy theme of this book, because the book is about repair and recovery.

Speaker 1:
[28:21] Yeah. You know, I was just brought back to my early days after having a baby. And I had to go on a walk around like 4, 4.30 every afternoon, because if I didn't, like that's like when it was, I had all my kids kind of in the fall. So like it was always like getting dark around then. And if I was inside my house and then like the darkness literally was coming, it felt like this like heaviness and this dread of the nighttime, because that movement just like, and I think that's something, I don't think I realized it exactly at the time, but that's something I needed. It wasn't so sophisticated. It was walking like three blocks outside of my apartment, going to get something, walking back home, fresh air, seeing people like literally experiencing motion in my body. And so I just think for everyone listening, like I think we hear, especially as women, like what do I need? Ah, I don't know. Oh my goodness. And like we should have some something really flowery or like really, really complex, like.

Speaker 3:
[29:21] Or it's a spa day.

Speaker 1:
[29:23] Right, or it's a spa day. It's actually interesting, both of us, like, you know, it's talking kindly to yourself, maybe it's water, but like movement. And like it wasn't just a little bit of movement was huge for me too.

Speaker 3:
[29:34] Or kind of building in these times where your personhood is at the center. And so I think that a lot of the time when you live in a family unit, the other roles are not at the center. I remember one of my early mantras in motherhood was your motherhood is only as powerful as your personhood. And I think when you go on that walk or, you know, for me, it's so funny you say 430 because my kids are still so small. And so still every day at 430, I have to take a shower because I have to have a minute to myself before the bedtime bath time marathon begins. Because they're both, you know, have a three and a half and a two year old. So they're both at that age where it takes forever and they torture you every step of the way. Like, you know, and that's just all they're into is just torturing you until they're down. And so it's for me, I'm like, I just need that moment. But because it's like I'm in the shower and I take a long shower. And again, it's probably something to do. Like, you know, you're probably like, I just need fresh air. And I'm like, I just need some water like on my body. And like I just, and I even bring like a bottle of water. In the shower with me, I drink water, I have a shower, I just have that reset before I just go into like the meal. And will you eat this? And no, you won't eat this. And like, will you do this? Okay, if you can wear this princess nightgown. And like, and it's so torturous.

Speaker 1:
[31:01] Yeah, well, I think by four, we're all like out of gas in our car. But like the journey is just beginning.

Speaker 3:
[31:06] Beginning.

Speaker 1:
[31:08] Right? And so, yes, like any... You have to fully refuel. Like, or you have to at least partially refuel, right? Because those moments when we don't, when our kid complains about dinner and then they don't take the bath or they splash water and it's no longer fun. You're just like, I'm gonna have to clean up this whole thing. And then you explode. It's not because you're some horrible human who hates their child. It's like, what does the human body do when you literally have nothing else to give and you're in a position where you have to give and exude patience and all the things? Like, the body implodes. That's just what happens.

Speaker 3:
[31:45] It breaks down. And that's okay. But I think also we have to just figure out how to allow for our... I think it's maybe like there's something around allowing for there to be breaks that help you avoid the breakdown. And they think that we just don't really live in this culture of giving ourselves even these micro moments, like the five minutes actually to... Even if you are so stressed and you can't take the shower, you can't go on the walk, there's probably the five minutes where you can lock yourself in your pantry or in the bathroom and just say like, I'm just going to take five minutes to just have like, be kind to myself and sit down, have some water and not talk to anyone and just because I just, I'm going to give myself this reset. And I think you'd be surprised, like most people are like, there's no way that could help. But like disrupting the like kind of flow when the flow starts to get a little too intense, I think always helps. How could it not?

Speaker 1:
[33:00] 100%. For me, it like is sitting down on like a couch when my kids are calling me. And this is one of my favorite lines. I'll say, I'm not available right now. I'm spending a few moments being still. And that's really important to me. And like they've learned over time. And like they used to protest. It was that. Is that as good as all the other things? No, but sometimes it was two minutes of like stillness on the couch and not moving and completing. It did shift what happened next.

Speaker 3:
[33:26] Well, and guess what? Because these absorbent beings, I have to say that the only way that they will ever value stillness is by having seen a parent give space and place in the house to stillness. I remember being on tour once and someone saying to me, I never saw my mom sit down a day in her life. She said she worked all day. And when she got home, she made our clothes and she cooked and she did. So she's like, the idea of self-care is like makes me sad to think about because it's so far from like she's like when people ask me to get there, I'm almost angry. I'm like, how would I know how to get to self-care? How could I ever put myself on my front burner? I'm never, I always joke. I'm like a woman has never heard those words. Like I'm just on my front burner right now. Like no one has ever mentioned the burners unless they're on the back burner. And she was like, but I never saw it. And I said, you know, the greatest gift you could give to your own daughter now is to show her because your struggle in finding places to give yourself care, care being a moment of stillness, a moment to self, a moment of reflection in a world that doesn't try to give us any space to reflect or contemplate because we have constant distraction in the palm of our hands. The only way we can give that to our kids is to model it. That's the only way we can never tell them, have stillness, have care, give yourself care, take time to yourself. If they never saw their parent do it, it just doesn't work. And I think it's hard because most parents struggle with like how do I really distinguish claiming things for myself in a way so children understand the power of claiming things like time for yourself and rejecting your kids. A friend of mine said that to me once and I was like, you know, well, I think to me, I never let my kids, especially at this age, be the people who determine like what actually happened in the situation as far as an emotion like rejection goes or true, true sadness. Or like when my kids are mad that I go away or upset when I leave for work, like I could be like, I've got to go, you know, do this thing for two hours for work. And if my three-year-old is like in hysterics, like I know that's not the saddest she's ever been. I actually know that she can't regulate disappointment. And I also know that children, you know, can't be the people who determine that they were rejected. We have to like really help them and teach them with these words actually mean through a really long span of time. But I think we always want to tie a bow on it in the moment with kids, where you're like actually rejection is something you teach kids for like 20 years, to truly understand rejection.

Speaker 1:
[36:03] Yeah. And I, you know, it's so interesting. I've never even thought about it as like rejection. Like when I hear it, like, how do you take care of yourself and cope with your kids feeling rejected? I guess it's just not the framework I would use, I would say. And it goes back to, you know, you called out a part of your book that was one of my favorites about, you know, the glue. And how, you know, if I think about a glue container, which is what so many of us are for our kids, there's no capacity to have a glue container without the container, right? Then it's just glue spilled all over. And so I guess when I think about taking care of myself and self-love and self-care and how my kids might feel about it, I'm teaching them that boundaries are a part of every form of love. There's no relationship where love exists, that boundaries between those two people aren't also an existence.

Speaker 3:
[36:53] Well, I'm surprised that you haven't had someone come to you around the rejection piece. Maybe that's a word that's not often used in it, but to me, the idea of mom guilt can only exist because we're trying to avoid rejection. Because somehow the rejection is just in there to you in some way, right? So it's like, everyone has that, I just left, I got on the plane, and I'm just feeling like the mom guilt of not being there for bedtime or whatever. To me, somehow, I think that the mom guilt is just somehow in relationship to you having this idea that you're somehow rejecting your kid, or your child is feeling rejected.

Speaker 1:
[37:35] Yes. I guess the boundaries are, it's always the solve for everything.

Speaker 3:
[37:39] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[37:40] Because those are my kid's feelings, right?

Speaker 3:
[37:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:44] Everyone has feelings when you set a boundary.

Speaker 3:
[37:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:47] Everyone does. Okay, I want to kind of end by asking you, for everyone who's listening here, who I think might be wondering, yeah, I don't have a practice of self-love. I don't have a practice of self-care. If that's true, probably also they're thinking, I haven't had that modeled for me. What's a first step that's small enough that I might think I can do that?

Speaker 3:
[38:13] Someone recently asked me what was the thing I noticed the most about or changed for me in my writing since I had kids. I told them that when you really live with kids, it's so clear that love is your birthright. My children really love who they are and they don't believe that anything is wrong with them. They certainly celebrate every part of who they are. When you see that from holding that person in their first breath, that is the clearest thing to me about having a child, is that loving yourself is your first breath. How do we return there? Because there's just a lot of junk that gets in the way. I think that first and foremost, say my love belongs to me through it all at my most fragile, when I feel the most kind of in my power, it doesn't matter, like it belongs to me, and I know that for sure. And then I think when you're feeling disconnected from it, you at least like that is when I joke about the Motel 6, I'll leave the light on for you, that is the light on that's for you, is that you know your love belongs to you. And then you can start trying to question, how do I get there? And self-care is really that practice of how do I get there? I once wrote this thing that said, if self-love says I love you, self-care says prove it. And it's kind of this way that we say like, well, if I was in a relationship with anybody else, how would I show them? What would I do to make it clear that I love them? I attend to them, I'd really deeply consider them, I'd really see and notice who they were when they changed. And remember love, I wrote, it's simple, every time you change, get to know yourself again. That is an act of love, that is an act of care.

Speaker 2:
[40:08] The idea of this episode is that the hard moment isn't the problem, the story you tell yourself about it is. That's what we're building in our new podcast Rattled. Not tips, not checklists, just honest conversations that help you feel less alone in it. New episodes drop every Thursday. Subscribe wherever you're listening or find the link in our show notes. And if you want more than a podcast, if you're looking for sleep support, lactation expertise, workshops, community, Good Inside Now has a whole new home inside the app, built just for the baby ears. Because this stage deserves real support and so do you. Thanks for being here. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 1:
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