transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Now, at McDonald's, wake up to a $4 breakfast meal deal. Wake up to a sausage McMuffin or a sausage biscuit, to hash browns, and wake up to a hot coffee. Get your $4 breakfast meal deal. Limit time only.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] Prices are in participation.

Speaker 3:
[00:13] May vary. Prices may be higher for delivery.

Speaker 4:
[00:15] Spring Black Friday is on at the Home Depot. Save on grills and patio sets that will be sure to bring your hosting game up a notch. Fire up your feasts with help from the Home Depot and save on grills, like the next grill for Burner Propane Gas Grill was $249, now in special buy for $199. Or give everyone the best seat in the yard with the Hampton Bay-Mayfield Park four-piece conversation set for only $399. Save on grills and patio sets with low prices guaranteed during Spring Black Friday, only at the Home Depot, now through April 22nd, while supplies last. Exclusions apply to homedepot.com/pricematch for details.

Speaker 5:
[00:50] Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs viral articles, celebrity memoirs and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea Devantez. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today we are book clubbing actor and R&B legend, Brandy, her memoir titled Phases, which was just released in March, 2026. Now I feel like we all know her as Brandy, but she is Brandy Norwood, who was only 15 years old when she released her 1994 debut self-titled album, which featured hits like Baby and I Wanna Be Down. She then followed it up with her second album, Never Say Never, which featured the hit duet, The Boy Is Mine with Monica. Oh boy, this just took me back to a thousand moments of karaoke with a friend of mine, maybe a talent show or two. I'm pretty sure I tried to perform that song. She is also known for songs like Have You Ever, The Full Moon and Sitting Up in My Room from the iconic Waiting to Exhale soundtrack. That is just to name a few. Brandy is also an actor. She starred in Moesha, that 90s sitcom that we all know, which ran for six seasons and ended on a cliffhanger. She also starred in the 1997 TV adaptation of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, which of course featured Whitney Houston as her fairy godmother, which will come up a lot in the book. So let's dive in. Our guest today is Julia Washington. You might remember Julia from our heated, heated rivalry panel that we did earlier this year. Julia is also the owner of Pros and Glow, which is my favorite literary-inspired gift shop. You must sign up. Basically, if you sign up on Julia's Patreon or her website, you get a candle delivered to you every single month. Every single month it comes. It's like a wine club, but it's a candle. And you get access to the book club where they discuss an adaptation, basically a book to film or book to TV adaptation. And then the candle is themed off of that. Or if you don't do that, you still get the recording of it. It's my favorite thing ever, Julia, to get this candle every month. It's $25 a month. It's such a sick deal. And I got a hated revelry candle, of course. I just got my wedding candle. For anyone who maybe wants to sign up, Julia, tell them what's coming down the lane. What candle would you get if you signed up today?

Speaker 6:
[03:20] If you sign up today, you'll get our May candle. And we are doing Margot's Got Money Trouble.

Speaker 5:
[03:27] Amazing. I watched the first episode, loved it.

Speaker 6:
[03:30] Yeah, I'm so excited. Like I'm waiting to watch the show, but I mean, I consume the books before I make the candle. Cause we try to, we, it's just me Chelsea. Unless you want to count my dog pouting that I'm not sitting on the couch with her, then it is okay. But I try to capture the essence of the book through the scent. And so like I've got to consume the book before I make the candle.

Speaker 5:
[03:51] What scents are coming up for you for Margot's Got Money Troubles?

Speaker 6:
[03:56] It's actually very fruity.

Speaker 5:
[03:57] That feels right. Because it's sparkly. It's fun.

Speaker 7:
[04:00] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[04:01] I was like, I don't want to do anything that's too inspired by Love Spell because like that felt like I would go too far.

Speaker 7:
[04:08] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[04:09] But I needed to like capture that like vibe of like, well, we've just walked into Victoria's Secret.

Speaker 5:
[04:14] Yes.

Speaker 7:
[04:15] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[04:15] Oh, I can't. Oh, God. What Victoria's Secret spray did I just use for years? I could visually if I saw it, I'd be like, that's my girl. I love your sense because they're always strong in the way of like, I hate where you light a candle and you have no idea you did. Like I want a sense to hit the room, but they're also really elevated and chic and nothing's like overpowering or like sugary. So I can't wait for this.

Speaker 6:
[04:40] Thank you.

Speaker 5:
[04:41] Okay, Julia. I reached out to you because something in me said, Julia is the Brandy guest. Now, was this correct? What were your overall feelings on the Brandy Memoir?

Speaker 6:
[04:55] I had very high hopes for the Brandy Memoir. I wanted to learn things that I didn't already know. And I was very excited, thank you for that, because the book in general just sort of gave me this nostalgia that I've been missing, which is great. Did hit a little bit of a plateau around page 200 where I was like, okay, I need you to give me more.

Speaker 5:
[05:21] Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 6:
[05:22] I get it, Whitney's fairy godmother, got it.

Speaker 5:
[05:25] Yep.

Speaker 6:
[05:26] You have lots of relationships that kind of didn't end great, got it. You're trying to reclaim yourself, got it. I need more Brandy.

Speaker 8:
[05:34] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[05:35] This book gave a lot and also I felt her restraint.

Speaker 6:
[05:40] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[05:42] Yes. It was either restraint or sadness. I wasn't sure if she didn't want to delve a ton into things because it was pain or if there was protective restraint, which is wild because you're going to hear y'all. She shared a lot, but there was something in the tone that was a little reserved.

Speaker 6:
[06:03] Yes. My most marked up chapters were the chapters where she talked about her relationship. Boyz II Men. Then the chapter where she talked about her pregnancy, like those are my most marked up ones. At the same time, there was stuff that was to your point of like Moesha ended on a cliffhanger. What happened?

Speaker 7:
[06:21] She doesn't really seem to have been a fan of Moesha.

Speaker 5:
[06:26] Let's dive in. I want to read a page from the preface. This actually, now that I just opened this page because I marked it, given what we just said about tone, I actually think this explains it and this is the answer. She told us in the beginning. Still, even now, I'm afraid that I will disappoint people by sharing my story. I'm certain that details here will differ from how others might have told it. Because of that, some names and identifying details have been changed or omitted to respect their privacy. Some scenes and conversations recalled here are done in the spirit in which they have been remembered, have been reordered and or combined for narrative purposes. The limits of my memory made me reconsider writing this book. I thought about just carrying all these stories locked inside. I'd gotten used to carrying them around, and they could vanish with my last breath and remain unknown. I'm afraid of what people might think. But my hope is that in surrendering my truths, that young girl who dreamed under the moon can feel understood and finally find release.

Speaker 6:
[07:20] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[07:21] It's a theme of the podcast, which is that carrying this will set me and hopefully others free, but by sharing what she's been carrying. So she wants to share, but it's very scary for her. Brandy, I would say wait away for a while, especially compared to how prevalent she was in pop culture for some time. So I think dipping a toe back into the water of people writing headlines and gossiping about you must be pretty scary.

Speaker 6:
[07:49] Yeah, yeah. It felt very much like she's on the outside of her story telling her story to me. She's got these big emotions and that comes out when she's talking about her relationships. And not just specifically the Boyz II Men relationship, but all of them. But then at the same time, there's moments when you're just like, again, I get it. Whitney Houston is a fairy godmother. I got it. I need more because then when she tells us that Whitney has passed and just how devastating that is for her, if I didn't know Brandy and know their relationship and had seen this Cinderella and just watched, I went back and rewatched the 1997 Grammys just to refresh my memory. If all of that hadn't been in my memory, I think there would have been a disconnect for me between how impassioned she was about Whitney. And she did a lot of work to meet her prior to them connecting for Cinderella.

Speaker 5:
[08:45] I have a note that I wrote and I said, not enough Whitney and worst picture section ever.

Speaker 6:
[08:52] Worst? I literally thought of you. I immediately flipped to the picture section. I was like, oh, oh, Chelsea's not going to like this.

Speaker 5:
[08:57] I said, girl, the amount of iconic, incredible images in Brandy's life. And I mean, there's only two a page, barely. There might be like seven images total and the ones she chose are really surprising to me. I think there's a lot of pain in Brandy's life. And I think looking back doesn't always bring pride. Also with Whitney, I didn't rewatch the Grammys. So I was sort of wondering if she was writing around some of Whitney's drug use and the realities of their friendship. But okay, so diving in from the beginning. At first, Brandy grows up in Mississippi and learns to sing in church and loves sort of the tradition of having her hair braided and what that means in black culture and with her family and with women. And it was a sweet moment of like, I didn't realize how iconic my hair would be for girls in the 90s showing her braids and that becoming a signature part of her look. I thought that was so beautiful. And then they move to Carson, California. And the chapter starts and it says, every kid in Carson hated Brandy Norwood. And Julia, this is where I thought the book was going to be perhaps the best memoir I've ever read. She told this story that I was screaming about. So basically Brandy is viciously bullied. I mean, there's intense violence from when she's eight years old, walking to school and kids hate her and pick on her. And she goes through a lot. And then finally in fifth grade, she meets her one true friend, but is still getting picked on. And this girl, Latoya, humiliates her in front of the drill team where she was like a part of that whole squad and like just shoves her and shoves her and belittles her and humiliates her. And then, Julia, did you see this coming? I'm gonna read what happens. She said, most of the kids in my neighborhood had latch key parents working to keep food on the table and the lights on. I knew Latoya would be home alone during a specific window each afternoon, just like me, just like most of us. First, I gathered every extension cord I could find around our house. From behind the TV, the garage, from my parents' bedroom, hid them under my bed. Then she said, finally, the day came. The block was quiet. Most kids were still at after-school programs or at friends' houses. From my lookout spot, I saw Latoya return home, the front door closing behind her. I retrieved my makeshift weapon. Extension cords braided together into a heavy, flexible whip. We're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back. I've been doing a little spring reset with my closet lately, really just trying to pare down and get rid of stuff. As I was getting rid of things, I realized the pieces I was for sure keeping, the ones at the top of my wardrobe were from Quince. They are well-made, versatile, easy to reach for every day. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They have all kinds of inclusive sizes. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful, and the pricing makes sense and doesn't make you sweat. Quince makes products using premium materials like 100% European linen. They have styles starting around $50. They have things that are lightweight, breathable, effortless. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. The Quince Ponte stretch pants have become my go-to.

Speaker 9:
[12:26] They don't wrinkle.

Speaker 5:
[12:27] They have extra long or extra short, and they're very stretchy, which I love. Listen, are we doing non-stretch pants after 2020? It's been six years and I'm still not going back. Refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/glamorous for free shipping and 365-day returns now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com/glamorous for free shipping and 365-day returns quince.com/glamorous. So I have a big event coming up and in the Patreon, someone had posted about the Jesse Nelson documentary, which is great. It's on Amazon. She is one of the pop stars in Little Mix, if you know that group. Anyways, a long way to say there was a woman being interviewed who had a great eye makeup and I said, that's the eye makeup I want to do for my event and I said, oh, I need to get a highlighter for above the eye to pull this off. And then I realized I already have a perfect one. It's Thrive Cosmetics Beauty Eye Brightener. I have the color Champagne. It's fantastic. This product I love because I love makeup, but one of the things I'm worst at is eye makeup because it takes such precision. And this product kind of has a big thick, not like a crayon, but it's like a big round stick. And so it's easy to cover a lot of the eye. So I absolutely love Thrive Cosmetics Brilliant Eye Brightener. Cannot recommend it more. And with over 150 million in product and cash donations to 600 plus giving partners, your purchase directly fuels real impact. Every purchase goes to a cause that they support, including domestic violence, which is a topic that is extremely close to my heart and my life. And that's beauty with purpose. Amplify your spring look with Thrive Cosmetics. Go to thrivecosmetics.com/glamorous for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's Thrive Cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E, metics.com/glamorous. Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. And I marched across the street, my heart pounding so hard I could feel it in my fingertips. Knock, knock, knock. Like the fool she was, LaToya broke the one cardinal rule drilled into every latchkey kid. She answered the door. Our eyes met for a split second, hers widened in surprise, mine narrowed with purpose. Before she could speak, I swung.

Speaker 6:
[14:53] My thought was, okay, somebody told you this is a thing you know you can do.

Speaker 7:
[14:57] How did you know to do that?

Speaker 6:
[14:58] You don't know how to braid. You don't sit around at like what? She's like 10 at this point. She's fifth grade. Fifth grade. So like 10 or 11. I don't know. I wouldn't have thought, you know what would be an interesting thing to try out? Braiding extension cords and then hurting somebody with them.

Speaker 5:
[15:13] To make a flexible whip. I was trying to think what iconic 80s, 90s movie could she have gotten this from? I couldn't think of one. If you know the answer, put it in the Patreon comments.

Speaker 7:
[15:23] Who did she get this from?

Speaker 6:
[15:24] Who did she get this from? And somebody had to have like, or overheard, I don't know.

Speaker 5:
[15:29] Something. Okay, I can hear everyone being like horrified at this story. And I just want to validate that. She did hit this girl with her whip and then no one ever bullied her again. From what I know from the story, the girl goes to school and it's just, just was like, okay, I'm healed and I will not pick on Brandy again. The one thing I wanna say is that a portion of my life, we moved to this small town and it was fight culture. It was the exact same thing she's describing of like, you are gonna undergo daily violence and the only way to get out of it will be to participate and show them you're not to be messed with or to move away. There was a part of me that was like, this is like the nerdy sweet bullied girl who like, I understand how years of enduring violence could lead a kid to be like, I must tell the school to stop hurting me and this is the way I do it. Though obviously, there were a million other solutions, but she clearly didn't feel like those were an option or didn't know about them. Her mom is such a big part of her life later in the book. I'm like, where? I know she said she didn't tell her parents, but they seems like such caring parents in the book.

Speaker 6:
[16:36] That was such a disconnect for me because on the one hand, she does talk a lot about, especially when her mom becomes her manager where she's like, we have this line where my mom is more my manager than my mom, I just want my mom sometimes. But then also when you're a child, you love your parents so much. She speaks so beautifully about her father and how much he impact her and her music career and what she is capable to do with her instrument. But yet there's something missing about your comfort level, especially Chelsea, with the ritual of sitting between someone's legs and having them braid your hair for hours. Like the amount of connecting that happens in that process. You know, like I'm a 42-year-old woman and I'm like, I wish I could go back and sit between my auntie's legs and just have her braid my hair. Like that would heal me today. So for me, that was a disconnect of like how bad was the bullying? What was going on mentally for you that you couldn't say something to your mom. Like there's a piece missing that just feels like there's things missing.

Speaker 5:
[17:41] I'm so glad you're saying that because and we'll get to it later in the book, but there's other parts where she talks about her parents. And I kept thinking, given what I know about Ray J and you in other areas of your life and other stories, this either can't be true or you're leaving out a really important fact about your parents. Because parents are fallible and in this book, hers are not. And so many crazy things happen with these kids that I, it just feels hard to be like, how were they perfect? And I'm not saying they should have been perfect, but she was saying they were. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[18:16] She was saying they were. Absolutely.

Speaker 5:
[18:18] Well, at 10 years old, she's like, I only had one wish and it was to get a record contract and be a very famous pop star. And she starts doing the talent circuit and she sings Whitney's The Greatest Love of All. Now, Julia, have you ever done a Whitney song at karaoke? If so, what was it?

Speaker 6:
[18:35] No, because I know better. However, with that said, I will, if I need to get my day started and I need to just get myself pumped, I'm turning on, I want to dance with somebody.

Speaker 5:
[18:49] Oh yeah.

Speaker 6:
[18:50] And I'm singing like I have vocals.

Speaker 5:
[18:53] That's probably the most cathartic therapy available. A hundred percent. I had a like E-Edibles phase in my 20s, and each time I would put on Whitney Houston songs with nature backgrounds. And I am devastated to say that your girl has attempted saving all my love upwards of a dozen times at karaoke. And I've got this like very silly princess soprano voice. That's just like not, just not. It's just not. It's a no and everyone had to hear it. Now, Brandy can sing. She is 10 years old singing this absolute Whitney banger. And through the talent show circuit, she meets Whitney's music director, Ricky Minor, who gets them seats to a Whitney concert and they're in the nosebleeds. And Brandy at 10 or 11 is like, I'm gonna get down there, I'm gonna meet her. If I just make eye contact with Ricky, who sat them in back. And she hustles her way down there with her mom in tow to meet Whitney and Whitney can't meet her that night. And she's just like sobbing and crying. There'll be multiple more times in life where she hustles her way to the front of the stage to try and meet Whitney Houston, who is her idol. And her mom kept saying the cream will rise to the top, you'll meet her when you're ready. Which makes it very beautiful because she's gonna be her very godmother in Cinderella. But it was so wild to read these stories of a 10-year-old making it through a stadium, convincing security guards to get them to each new level. And then she's like, and then I got Cinderella and Whitney was my godmother. And then there's like no set stories. And there's no stories after that.

Speaker 6:
[20:24] Nothing. And to like, I understand that this song that she chooses to sing is her song over and over and over again. And she is emotionally connected to that song. We all have that. We just proved that. We all have that.

Speaker 5:
[20:36] Save it all my love, you guys. It's my song.

Speaker 6:
[20:38] Yeah. I just, I just felt like, and maybe you nailed it on the head with the she's protecting Whitney in some way or their relationship in some way. Because again, something's missing. I loved the story she told about how she approached Cece and was like, hey, I love Whitney. Can you call her? Like that is gumption. That is like a brave, bold child. And yet somehow that bravery, that boldness diminishes over time. And it really feels like she doesn't know who she is. It's almost like Whitney's the compass that, you know, she's like, that's what I want. That's what I want to be. And her parents are reminding her like, be Brandy, be Brandy. But her eye is like, be Whitney, be Whitney. But the good version of Whitney, right? Like, cause that's another repeated theme where she's like, I'm a good girl. I have this good girl reputation. There are things that I'm not allowed to do because I'm a good girl.

Speaker 5:
[21:34] Yeah, I think I'm projecting this now from what you said, but the idea of like meeting your heroes and realizing the pain they're going through from fame, which is the thing she was pursuing at the time, must have really changed her. In a way, she didn't write down.

Speaker 6:
[21:49] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[21:50] Well, through the talent show circuit, which like I'm nostalgic for a time, I was never a part of and one of the cookies gave me the word for this and I absolutely forgot it, but I'm nostalgic for a time I never lived through, which is this 90s kid talent show circuit where kids were just like, it was like these shows, these live shows people would go to and there'd be 10 acts that night and there'd be a winner or a loser and you'd get to know the industry and people trying to come up. There she meets the guy who was managing a little group called Immature. Anybody remember that? Were you an immature fan?

Speaker 6:
[22:23] My sister was.

Speaker 5:
[22:23] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[22:24] So I do want to mention Brandy and my sister are almost the exact same age. A lot of the stuff she was talking about, I was observing through my sister because that was my sister. Not necessarily like singer girl, but when she was talking about immature, when she was talking about all these different things. I got into Moesha because my sister was watching Moesha.

Speaker 5:
[22:45] Yes, that makes so much sense. And immature is on the talent circuit and this is their intro. And I got to tell you, if I saw 10-year-old boys walk out and do this, I'd be like, they're stars. One would come out and say, my name is Romeo and I'm from the moon. The first boy announced with a sly smile, his voice carrying to the back row without effort. My name is Half Pint and I'm from Pluto. The smallest of the trio followed, bouncing on his toes. I'm Batman and I'm from the stars. The third boy concluded, spreading his arms wide as if embracing the entire audience.

Speaker 7:
[23:14] And we're immature. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[23:19] And their manager Chris Stokes is like, I would like to manage you Brandy, but he kind of sits on her career for a while and has her be a part of a girl group. And she gets her solo act from performing as a girl group and the record label guys standing there saying, forget them, you step forward. It's you, you're the star. But Chris really didn't lead her there. So she ends up leaving him and she gets her solo career. But before that happens, she said Half Pint one night physically assaulted her when she was in the living room, like put his hand up her shirt and began feeling her up. And she was reading a book, like they were all just hanging out there as they did. And she picked up the book and threw it at him. And it went flying across the room. And it hit Jerome's eye, who is Romeo. And it detached his retina. And they like rushed him to the hospital. And later, he wears an eye patch and like makes it part of his thing. And that came from Brandy defending herself from this assault. And it should be noted that Chris Stokes also has allegations against him from other groups. So it was just a very unsafe environment, even though she said her dad and her mom were around all the time.

Speaker 6:
[24:35] Yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, Chelsea, but I kept thinking, where is your mother? Like I kept checking myself when I was saying that too, because it's like, where's your mother? At the same time, it's like, I don't know what it's like to manage a child in the industry. Like what access in the 90s.

Speaker 5:
[24:52] And her mom wasn't managing her yet. Her mom, I think, she works as like a tax account at HR.

Speaker 6:
[24:58] Block. But again, back to the Brandy of it all being like, her parents are sort of on this pedestal and they're these really wonderful anchors for her throughout her story per her version, per her vision. And yet she's constantly in these situations where you're just like, but I'm not asking this in a judgmental way, just curious, where's your mom?

Speaker 5:
[25:19] And listen, it's a question to ask, where's your dad? Like, where are they? Okay, so from here, she starts writing about a drama teacher who changed her life, who was the teacher who made her realize maybe she does want to act. And when she said his name in the book, I was like, Mr. Bialik. I was like, that's funny.

Speaker 7:
[25:37] Sounds like Mayim Bialik.

Speaker 5:
[25:39] And then she's like, you know, Mayim Bialik's dad, my acting teacher in school. I said, what? And Mayim's like in Blossom. And one day comes to do like a Q&A with a class. And it's like, here's how you like become an actor. And I got to tell you, have you ever seen Beaches?

Speaker 6:
[25:57] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[25:58] Mayim is the most talented child alive. When she is playing a young Bette Midler, so my jaw is still on the floor from that performance.

Speaker 7:
[26:08] Now realizing like, yeah, she had like a theater school dad.

Speaker 6:
[26:13] It makes sense.

Speaker 5:
[26:13] It makes sense. And he's teaching Brandy how to act. And she realizes maybe I'll do auditions. Does that part blow your mind? I'm like, and it's not said in the book, but I'm like, is this man just like randomly in Carson? Are we in LA now?

Speaker 7:
[26:26] Like, where are we?

Speaker 6:
[26:28] Okay. So I felt like I was like, oh, I know exactly who she's talking about, even though she hadn't dropped the bomb yet. But I also felt like she did that a lot where she was like, here's the setup of who I'm talking about or gives you the explanation. And she brings him up again later. She was so impactful to her, just long term, which is crazy to me because could you, I know you asked me a different question, but could you imagine sitting in your classroom one day and like Blossom walks in and is just like, hey guys.

Speaker 5:
[26:54] It would have changed my life. It would have changed my entire life. And I think one great teacher who sees who you are and validates it. I think if you're lucky, everyone has that one teacher who just changed your entire world by seeing you. And it feels like he's that for her.

Speaker 6:
[27:11] She does have a lot of access to people who are really close in the industry that I don't think I realized right away.

Speaker 7:
[27:17] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[27:18] And just her boldness to get through all of that too was really interesting to read. But it's always nice to find out that there isn't a garbage man on the planet.

Speaker 7:
[27:28] You know, it is nice.

Speaker 5:
[27:30] But I got to tell you, one other theme in the book is Brandy writing about garbage men and not including their garbage context.

Speaker 6:
[27:38] Right.

Speaker 5:
[27:38] So I really, listen, I hope, I'm sure Mr. Bialik is fine, fingers crossed. But like, I don't trust her to tell me in the book if they're not. Well, at this point, her mom is like, hey, you're really serious about this. I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to manage you and Ray J. And her mom starts studying the same way she studied on how to, you know, learn taxes and all this crazy stuff. She's like, I'm just going to study being a manager so that I can help my children achieve their dreams. And this leads to her getting her first TV show. It was on for a year and it was supposed to be The Black Roseanne. And her TV mom, Thea Vidal, hated her and was like, can't you learn your lines? And it was just like a horrible experience and when the show ends, she's like thrilled about it. Did you ever watch that show?

Speaker 6:
[28:27] I didn't watch Thea. I actually looked to see if I could find it streaming. And if it is, I didn't find it. But just listening to her talk about how awful Thea was to her was really heartbreaking because she's what? Like all of 13, 14 years old.

Speaker 5:
[28:40] I think she's 12 or 13 here.

Speaker 6:
[28:41] Yeah. So this is a literal child and you're just...

Speaker 5:
[28:44] Berating them.

Speaker 6:
[28:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[28:47] She also sounds like such a timid child in many ways. Like she wants to follow the rules. She wants to do good. She wants to do a good job. She wants to work hard. And so it's extra painful because Brandy just wanted to please everyone.

Speaker 6:
[28:58] To do well.

Speaker 5:
[28:59] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[29:00] And she understood the weight of like there's not a lot of people that look like us on TV.

Speaker 5:
[29:05] This means something.

Speaker 6:
[29:06] At 12 years old, understanding that, you know, so it's like not having that nurturing, you know. Sherrilee Ralph would never actually.

Speaker 5:
[29:13] Would never. Sherrilee Ralph coming up. But first, she gets a record deal, Atlantic Records, at 14 years old. And she did it. Okay, we're going to take a quick break right now and we'll be right back.

Speaker 9:
[29:32] We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often life or usually price gets in the way. That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 percent off hotels and up to 50 percent off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure. Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit priceline.com and book your next trip today.

Speaker 2:
[29:59] Go to your happy price, Priceline.

Speaker 3:
[30:02] Pepsi Prebiotic Cola in Original and Cherry Vanilla. That Pepsi tastes you low with no artificial sweeteners and three grams of prebiotic fiber. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola. Unbelievably Pepsi.

Speaker 5:
[30:19] Okay, welcome back. Let's continue the conversation. At 10 years old, she said, I want a record deal. At 14, she had a record deal. The guy who was like, come back when you're 14, she did and they're like, great, you have a deal now.

Speaker 7:
[30:33] She tells a story. Did you know who this was?

Speaker 5:
[30:36] Because you were talking about how she would introduce people. I didn't know who she was going to say as she said, we spent hours that time fine-tuning Love Is On My Side. She said, Robin was just 17 then, as green as I was and years away from becoming Robin Thicke.

Speaker 7:
[30:53] I was like, Robin Thicke.

Speaker 6:
[30:55] My jaw dropped? I was like, no, I don't like it.

Speaker 5:
[30:58] I don't like it at all.

Speaker 6:
[30:58] I don't know why, but my body recoiled.

Speaker 5:
[31:00] But apparently, they just worked on a song for a day and that was that. At 17, he went off to live his R&B life, I guess.

Speaker 6:
[31:09] Ruining black women everywhere.

Speaker 5:
[31:12] And that's where I was like, so this is what I mean, like I get guarded for the story and she's like, Robin's great, right? She just moves on.

Speaker 6:
[31:19] And you're like, but Brandy, you wrote this in 2025 probably? I think maybe not.

Speaker 8:
[31:23] Come on.

Speaker 6:
[31:25] Like we know. Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[31:26] We know.

Speaker 5:
[31:27] So Brandy, you know, her first album comes out and she explodes onto the scene and her second album and at the exact same time, she gets Moesha, which we're going to talk about in a second. So she's, I mean, just blowing up. And one of the groups her and her brother have looked up to their entire lives and are obsessed with, probably second only to Whitney Houston, is Boyz II Men. So one day when her mom wakes her up and says, Wanya Morris is on the phone for you. She's like, oh my God. This is another one where I'm not faulting her mom, because I think in the context of the time, I believe many mothers and fathers did very similar things. Where she's like, hey, this adult man wants to talk to my teenager.

Speaker 6:
[32:17] Famous, powerful. In the industry my daughter wants to be in. Yes, of course.

Speaker 5:
[32:21] Yeah. Of course, without giving it a second thought. And she had just gone through a heartbreak with her boyfriend. They were going to save each other's virginity for each other. And then he called her up and was like, actually on spring break I went for it. Sorry, babe. So she's hurting. She's newly famous. And one night she walks into a restaurant and she hears a voice announce, tonight is a special evening. It's Brandy's birthday. I turned slowly and found myself standing before Boyz II Men in the flesh. I hadn't seen Wanya since he dropped over by my friend's house. And I never met the rest of the guys. Now here they were surprising me for my birthday. And then she does another performance at the Tacoma Dome in Washington state and after the show, Wanya is there with a dozen long-stemmed white roses.

Speaker 6:
[33:12] That's a red flag. That's a red flag. Red flag!

Speaker 5:
[33:15] And she's there because she's opening for them. She's opening for Boyz II Men. And this man is like, I know what will do it, surprising her for her teenage birthday and bringing her white roses.

Speaker 6:
[33:27] Her sweet 16, because at this point, you know, she was heartbroken because, you know, things didn't work out with whatever his name was before him. Yep.

Speaker 8:
[33:36] Hey, everyone. Producer Christina here. Now, at this point in the episode, some of you might be wondering, why aren't they talking about Kobe Bryant? Now, for those who don't know, back in 1996, Kobe Bryant and Brandy Norwood briefly dated and they went to Kobe Bryant's prom together. It was highly publicized. They were pictures. And the reason why we don't talk about Kobe Bryant is because he's not mentioned, at least directly, in the book. So Brandy actually talked about this in a recent interview with Parade Magazine and she said, I was hesitant to speak about Kobe because he's passed away. I wasn't sure if that was appropriate or not. You know, Kobe had such a special soul. I had the chance to meet him, go to prom with him, work with him on Moesha and just admire him from afar. We just had a great time that night, just being amongst regular teenagers. Also, Kobe's not the guy that she's referencing when she's talking about coming off of heartbreak and going into dating Wanya Morris. So, I just wanted to clear that up. And now, back into the episode.

Speaker 5:
[34:37] Wanya one day is like, you know, we should do something together. You know that song Broken Hearted, upcoming on your album? Like, we should do it together, like as a duet. And she's like, oh my god, like for real? And he's like, yeah, like let's do it. And she wrote this, It seems to me that he weaponized my admiration, shaped my friendship into dependence, my respect into desire. I felt swept up in a current I couldn't control. Now, what is a devastating sentence for me to say, Julia, is that this reminded me of an improv teacher or two of mine. And thankfully, I did not date them, but I absolutely remember that first message being like, you are so talented. And the desire I had for that to be true, and my admiration for their position as the greatest improviser in Chicago, I was so swept into it that I didn't see it coming until it was in front of my face being like, we should have sex though, right? And you're like, whoa, I thought, oh my God. And then you're like, I'm so stupid. I really thought, I really thought you thought I was talented. And this is what happens with Brady. So I just was trembling this entire chapter of being like, I know this game.

Speaker 7:
[36:02] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[36:04] I don't have necessarily a similar experience when it comes to like artistic profession, but I definitely have an inappropriate age gap romance in my history. And so a lot of just the ways that he was treating her and just like being so lovey-dovey in the beginning. I mean, now we call it love bombing, right? That wasn't really a thing that we talked about in 1997 or whenever she was 16. We have this conversation all the time in my friend group about age gap romances and like, when is it okay? And like, what's the definition? Because mine was I was 25 when I met this person and there was a 20-year age gap. And then I have a, yeah, he was, listen, he looked good. He looked good. And also he helped me get out of a really dangerous situation. So like there's this weird complicatedness around it.

Speaker 5:
[36:51] Isn't that how it always goes? And I want to say always, but it's like, because they helped you, you overlook certain things. Also, I don't know anything about your relationship perhaps. That was his in, you never know.

Speaker 6:
[37:02] You never know. And so like this conversation we're constantly having in our friend group, because it seems to be a common theme with women I know, where we all have some version of an age gap, whether it's mine is the longest, the biggest 20 years. Congratulations. Thanks. I should get a trophy actually. And others are like maybe five or seven years or like 10 years. And the consensus that we all have is that it doesn't really matter what age we were when that relationship started. It does matter if you're like 15, 16, 21 sure. But like the point is, we were all in a very vulnerable state and we're taken advantage of. So like in theory, 25 is an adult, right? It's interesting how that level of vulnerability of whatever age you were, right? Like I was 25, I was running a program, I was a single parent, I had a child. And yet there is still a lot of, I don't want to call it emotional abuse, but it's probably what it was.

Speaker 5:
[38:00] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[38:01] Happening because the power dynamics were different and he's been on the planet longer than I have. So there's this like-

Speaker 5:
[38:06] I think you nailed something really important because I've talked about age gap relationships in the past because they come up a lot in the memoirs. And the one I had was terrible. So that's my view on them. And I have had messages from people being like, I'm in an age gap relationship and very happy and fulfilled. And I think that's absolutely key to the age gap. Was the person in the lower power dynamic, the lower age, in a vulnerable position when you got together. And I think that is what is key to whether these relationships are bad or, you know, age doesn't matter to us and we are in love.

Speaker 6:
[38:41] Yeah. And with Wanya, it really does feel predatory. There's a point where like some of my notes were like, say some of them. Nope. This is the nerve. This is not normal, especially at 16. Literally hate this. Yeah. You know, he's 22, she's 16.

Speaker 5:
[38:58] And he would say out loud, my girlfriend is 16.

Speaker 6:
[39:01] So he knew. He knew.

Speaker 5:
[39:03] And they hid it from her parents and they hid it from the world. They knew to make a plan to say, oh, we only started pursuing something when she was 18. So they were hiding for two years. This is the most egregious one and Brandy knows it. He would make her sent him a page before she could call him on the phone. So she could never call him out of the blue. She had to send that page first because why? Because he was busy with other ladies.

Speaker 6:
[39:27] Yeah, and that's so controlling. That's so manipulative and she's 16 and she doesn't understand that. I got the sense too that there was a level of innocence that maybe she wasn't, I mean, she talks a lot about in the book about like, I was, you know, my reputation is the good girl. I'm the good girl. I can't do anything wrong. Like I'm not allowed to show my midriff in photo shoots. And like that's a huge part of what she talks about with her reputation. At the same time, it really did feel like, especially during the Wanya years, that she really believed that that's who she is. But she is a good girl. She doesn't do these bad things. Like they're not going to, like the line of just dating in secret is already bad enough.

Speaker 5:
[40:08] And also she's losing her virginity to him. And she had prized and kept precious and was saving it for this other boyfriend. Here's this man who is taking advantage of her. She wrote some sentences that I thought were stunning. She said, your first real love, your first experience with sex, these are a natural part of youth, rites of passage that should unfold with tenderness and care. Mine unfolded under the influence of a man who seemed to know exactly how to make me question my own beliefs and boundaries. And I hung in this strange balance. I was navigating that time in full view of the world. Every move scrutinized, every choice dissected by people who didn't know my heart. And below she said, I was too naive to realize that deep down inside he did not see me as special. I think he saw me as conquerable, as someone whose boundaries could be negotiated away.

Speaker 6:
[40:55] Yeah, that broke my heart.

Speaker 7:
[40:57] And it felt so relatable.

Speaker 6:
[41:00] So relatable. And then there's another point too, where she says, he and I understood with diamond cut clarity, that public knowledge of our relationship would ignite scandal, potentially threatening everything we've both worked for. So it's like, you know what you're doing is wrong. And yet there's still this innocence to her when it comes to the relationship of believing. And then a couple pages later, she says, whatever existed between he and I, it felt real. I genuinely believed it was true love. And I was like, feelings of every woman everywhere who were groomed.

Speaker 5:
[41:35] Who were groomed, 100%. And she wrote this, she said, the shame I have carried over this relationship ends here. Buried in these pages like ashes scattered to the wind, I have grown more resentful at his insistence and reframing that time. His continued attempts to rewrite history with himself as the misunderstood romantic lead rather than the adult man he was. His refusal to acknowledge what I believe he did, to take responsibility for the power I believe he wielded and abused feels like its own form of continued abuse. He was old enough to know better, old enough to understand the power dynamics it plays. And then got this line. I would say this chapter makes the entire book feel worth it. Whatever notes we gave it, the fact that this chapter exists, I think is just so stunning and such a gift. She wrote this. She said, being taken advantage of as an immature teenager, and then having it thrown in your face for the next 30 years is a kind of cruelty only reserved for women.

Speaker 6:
[42:37] I also underlined that passage as well. And it really does like, I don't know if you've heard him talk about it.

Speaker 5:
[42:43] No, tell me.

Speaker 6:
[42:44] She calls them out in the book. She says, like, he never says the same story twice. Like, there's different details every time.

Speaker 5:
[42:50] And he's like sharing it to capitalize on it, to capitalize on her fame, to make him look, he's like, oh, I had to let her down. Easy. I mean, okay. Yeah, I'm just, come on, dude. So thrilled she finally spoke out and put this in its place.

Speaker 6:
[43:05] The final line of this chapter, I was like, thank you for saying this out loud. She said, I was a child, he was an adult, and it's time the world understood the difference. And I was like, amen, with like exclamation points and underline. Because I think, especially when it comes to being, and again, the printer ran out of ink with me, so you can't always tell that I'm black. But being, the over-sexualization of black girls in our society is real. And here she is, she's 16, she's innocent. She still has this beautiful idolization of love. Like she really thinks that this is something that is good and wonderful. And it's clear throughout the book that she is a girl who loves to be partnered.

Speaker 7:
[43:50] She loves to be partnered. And also she was groomed into it.

Speaker 5:
[43:53] She was groomed into her feelings. The way we were taught and are taught to look at our virginity, but especially in those precious chastity years of the early 2000s, of like the way she must have felt tied to him long after that happened. And the way they end is that she happens to pull up to a stoplight, look to the left and see him in his car fondling his assistant. And she's like, oh, you've been cheating on me the whole time. And he was like, yes, of course. Well, see you later.

Speaker 6:
[44:18] Of course I have. I'm a grown man.

Speaker 5:
[44:20] That's why you paid me.

Speaker 6:
[44:21] And you're like, duh, of course you have. You're a grown, sir.

Speaker 7:
[44:23] Sir.

Speaker 6:
[44:25] Jail.

Speaker 5:
[44:25] On top of emotionally abusing her and putting her down and making her doubt her talent. And this is right when her fame is peaking. So I think this also explains a lot of how she was birthed into the world of fame and her sense of self and how it was just pulled apart from the very beginning because this is right when she gets Moesha and she is recording music as she is in this TV show that is filming year round, like almost constantly, especially with episode orders back in the day.

Speaker 7:
[44:55] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[44:55] And so let's talk about Moesha. She said, Sarah and Vida were rarities. One of the few black female writing teams who had managed to carve out space in writers rooms where they were often the only women of color. And they go and pitch this TV show, Moesha, that Cheryl Lee Ralph played Dee, her stepmom. And I love just like, you know, she was leading this sitcom and now she's here in Alba Elementary and just like, Cheryl is just like such a gift in Hollywood. And also she said she was so bad at first at the role of Moesha that they called up Kim Fields and is like, can you come help this girl? And she does. And I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Kim Fields is like famous and working and she just took time to just come help this teenage girl be good at the role and like learn how to act. And she said Kim Fields is how she survived Moesha.

Speaker 6:
[45:47] I really love that story because it really felt like, again, the pressure and understanding the importance of like, hey, this is a role that is going to mean something to so many little girls and teenagers everywhere. I remember when it ended and then I remember when streaming started, it was just like, why can't I find the show anywhere to stream? I would love to have the comfort of Moesha in my living room, like how everybody else has the comfort of like, friends, I don't know, friends or whatever other CW TV shows existed after the death of UPN. And I got in a conversation with somebody on Twitter, RIP, about how we couldn't find Moesha anywhere. And then one day it showed up on Prime, but she had to pay for it. But I'm happy to report it is now on 2B. All seasons are on 2B.

Speaker 5:
[46:36] 2B is genius. Y'all, 2B be snatching up the best content, giving it for free with ads, the way television works. And I think they're crushing it. Wow. I agree. Well, yeah, I really felt that she understood how important and beautiful and incredible this show was and how much it meant at the time. While holding in the other hand some pain about it, she wrote this. She said, there were times when Moesha could be incredibly judgmental, even cruel, especially to those who loved her most. She could be regressive, contradicting her own feminist principles. Nothing graded on me more than how she sometimes treated her best friends, making jokes about their bodies, their socioeconomic status, their intelligence. How could a show meant to empower black girls, feature a protagonist who engaged in body shaming or slut shaming? The true magic of the series, in my opinion, was the sisterhood between Moesha Kim and Nece. And I worried that sometimes we undermined that magic with cheap jokes.

Speaker 6:
[47:30] I feel like that's fair and also that's also 90s TV.

Speaker 5:
[47:34] I know. And I think she probably bears this burden of the imperfections of this character even more because she was the only young black girl character in some ways. I know there were other characters. Like this was like a huge, you know.

Speaker 6:
[47:51] She was the lead.

Speaker 5:
[47:52] She was named after her. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[47:54] Yeah. It's not like Family Matters where it's like, oh yeah, Laura Winslow. Like we all know Laura Winslow. Like, you know, but it's very much her show through her lens.

Speaker 5:
[48:02] Yeah. And that like, you know, you've got so many like white male teenage leads on multiple shows that you can compare the differences in their personalities and their humor. And like this was like just Moesha. So I think she feels and must have heard some extra rebuttals towards how her character was handled. Now we're going to get to her brother, Ray, who she calls Ray in the book.

Speaker 6:
[48:27] Chelsea, I'm dying. Okay, continue. Sorry.

Speaker 5:
[48:30] You know, I sometimes teach how to write memoir. And there's a lesson I teach that I really had to grapple with in this memoir, which they say like, you don't have to tell anyone's story, but your own. You don't tell other people's stories if it's not within yours, especially if it'll hurt them, especially if they're alive and you don't want to. But then I read a book like this, where his story is entirely missing. And I rethink that lesson because I think that the asterisk is like, unless of course you are both famous and the public knows both of your stories and your intertwining timelines, in which case you do need to acknowledge it, because she wrote a lot about Ray and also absolutely nothing.

Speaker 6:
[49:16] Absolutely nothing at the same time.

Speaker 5:
[49:18] I will read this paragraph and it's kind of what she says throughout the whole book. She said, What makes me proudest of my brother isn't his accomplishments, though there are many, but his resilience, his ability to reinvent himself, to build his own empire on his own terms, to remain fearlessly unapologetically Ray J. We are still each other's best friend. We are still each other's biggest fan. We are still Ray J and Brandy R&B, finding our way through this complicated world together.

Speaker 7:
[49:42] I said, then what did you think when he made a sex tape with Kim Kardashian?

Speaker 5:
[49:47] Literally, you're in it. As is best friend. Can you please speak on how he has said Kim and her mom paid him to do this and orchestrate it?

Speaker 7:
[49:55] Can you speak on those claims?

Speaker 6:
[49:56] Speak on that, especially because your reputation is a good girl.

Speaker 5:
[50:00] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[50:01] Like how is your, like I'm sorry, your siblings impact how people also view you.

Speaker 7:
[50:09] Yes, hugely.

Speaker 6:
[50:10] Especially when you are quote 25 months apart, just say two years. And like you have this huge thing happen to your family that Ray J did and you have no thoughts?

Speaker 5:
[50:23] No thoughts. And also I think I'm failing in the blanks for Ray J here, but their mom manages both of them. And when your mom is your manager already, holy shit, but also she's managing your sister who's successful and managing you who are not, I can only imagine the pain, the very complicated puzzle of pain that creates for you.

Speaker 6:
[50:43] Is this a situation where maybe, because you know how the husbands are always awful when the wife is more successful and then we read about it and you cover it in the memoir coverage? And we're just like, oh, that guy, he is very insecure that his wife is talented. Like, is that also part of it too?

Speaker 5:
[51:02] And he alleges and granted he's not in this book, right? There's nothing for me to back this up with, but he's made some wild YouTube's that maybe are true. I have no idea that he's like, Chris Jenner and Kim plans the sex tape. Here's the agreement I made. They were going to release it. They saw how Paris did. I did it on purpose.

Speaker 7:
[51:19] All that stuff.

Speaker 5:
[51:19] It's like, is that a decision he made because Brandy was doing so well? And he was like, let me go this route. It's weird to know what this man's dick looks like. Yeah, because I'm sorry the sex tape got leaked.

Speaker 7:
[51:33] I saw some of it.

Speaker 5:
[51:34] Like if you didn't know any of that and you just read this book, you'd be like, what a nice guy who is her best friend and once had an album. The end.

Speaker 6:
[51:41] Yeah, especially when she goes hard on how encouraging he is to her with her career and how like, girl, you got, you know, you need to self love. I know you struggle with, she talks about struggling with self worth and he's like constantly there being like, you got this, you got this, you got this. And you're just like, but Brandy, you're a good girl. I need to know what you thought because you kept secrets from people because you're a good girl reputation. And yet you have no opinion about what your brother did. Like I would have an opinion. If my brother popped up with a sex tape, I would be on Instagram live talking about it.

Speaker 5:
[52:18] Okay, I love that for you. I don't know if I'd be live-ing it, but I'd have an opinion in my memoir 20 years later. I mean, I think that what's interesting is I think she's still in a bit of a prison of the 90s and early aughts, which is when the media set her on fire and stole her career from her is how I look at it. And I think she's still in that prison of sharing will hurt me. And I wish I could be like, memoirs have changed. Like welcome to 2026 because she loves him so much. She absolutely could have written through her love for him what happened in a way that is incredible. Unless of course there's NDAs and Chris Jenner will sue you, possible. But you could still write your opinion you could still talk about how this impacted you without making it horrible or salacious or bad. But yeah, I think she clearly feels protective of him and loves him very much and didn't want to talk about it.

Speaker 6:
[53:12] Fair.

Speaker 5:
[53:13] Well.

Speaker 6:
[53:13] And also.

Speaker 7:
[53:15] And also. And also.

Speaker 6:
[53:18] You wrote a memoir. I need to know how you felt about this.

Speaker 7:
[53:21] I know.

Speaker 6:
[53:23] Sorry.

Speaker 5:
[53:24] What do you mean? I feel the same way.

Speaker 6:
[53:25] I mean, I'm actually not sorry. I really do. I was like, oh, I can't wait for the R&B chapter. I bet that's about her and Ray J. And then I was like, okay, cool. Got it. Message received.

Speaker 5:
[53:36] Best friend.

Speaker 6:
[53:36] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[53:38] All right. So then Cinderella happens. I mean, this was revolutionary. Like a black Cinderella at that time, at this time. It'd be revolutionary tomorrow, which is devastating.

Speaker 7:
[53:50] And she wrote this, which I thought was interesting.

Speaker 5:
[53:53] What none of us fully grasped then, what we couldn't possibly have known, was how profoundly this single casting decision challenge an industry still clutching tightly to outdated traditions.

Speaker 7:
[54:03] I said, you didn't know?

Speaker 5:
[54:04] I mean, I guess that's great for all of you.

Speaker 7:
[54:07] That seems impossible.

Speaker 5:
[54:08] But she said, One network executive who enthusiastically supported Whitney as the fairy godmother, expressed reservations about the prospect of two black women in the central roles. Quote, if you're coming up with someone like Brandy as Cinderella, this executive suggested, why can't you go and get Jewel instead and have a white Cinderella and a black fairy godmother? Craig and Neil, bless their conviction, the men behind this movie, didn't flinch in the face of this, absolutely not. They responded firmly. The whole point is that Cinderella is black and so is the fairy godmother. We weren't interested in a white Cinderella when we started working on it and we still aren't. This is unbelievable how they got this cross. Of course, they could see Whitney as the fairy godmother, as the magical woman who fixes the white girl's life. So the fact that they held their ground and that we had this movie, what a gift.

Speaker 6:
[54:53] I love it. The whole time too, when I was reading that paragraph, I was like, oh, I love that you're like, we're not doing the Magical Negro. Thank you.

Speaker 5:
[54:59] Which that executive clearly thought they were doing and they said no. They said no and they listened and Disney did it.

Speaker 6:
[55:06] Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[55:07] I don't feel like they could do it tomorrow.

Speaker 5:
[55:08] Like they did Little Mermaid and I guess now because we have the internet, they heard everyone's racism about that. But wow. Okay, I wrote this note on the next page. So now we're about page 200, which is where you said the book plateaus. This is my note at the top of that chapter. It says, she's been 18 forever.

Speaker 6:
[55:27] For a long time. I was like, oh, is this only going to be like 14 to 18? If that's the case, cool. I still don't feel like we had enough. No, if that's the case.

Speaker 7:
[55:37] I was like, whoa. We just turned 18.

Speaker 5:
[55:40] Then finally, she gets to the Boy Is Mine chapter. I mean, this song, the way this song has a chokehold on my entire childhood, like just the amount of times I was like, talent show, boy is mine, talent show, boy is mine. Then karaoke nights, horrible karaoke nights, where you just wasted with girls being like, let's do it. God, I love this song. So this was another fantastic chapter. She said, so there Monica and I stood, all draped in elegance and glamour, yet barely concealing the ice in our eyes. It was the 1998 MTV Video Music Awards. I love this chapter. So she talks about how her, Monica and Aaliyah kind of hip hop culture at the same time. And the way they are treated, very similar to Miss Brittany, Jessica, Mandy and Xtina, where they start getting compared and thrashed about against each other. And this idea that three young black women exist is like mind blowing. And so everyone is talking about rivalry and cat fights and all the stuff that the media does. And also her and Monica have something in common, which is that they both were obsessed with Whitney as kids growing up trying to make their careers. You have these two Whitney obsessed teenagers who have now made it onto the scene at the same time. And she said they refused to play into like a feud, but that radio DJs would create skits where like someone played Brandy and someone played Monica and they were always like fighting with each other on the radio, even though they never actually fought in person.

Speaker 6:
[57:16] Until they did. Until they did.

Speaker 7:
[57:19] Until they did.

Speaker 6:
[57:21] So somebody needs to write some hated rivalry fanfic about this. This is their version of heated rivalry.

Speaker 9:
[57:26] Please heed the call.

Speaker 5:
[57:28] I need the Monica and Brandy Boy Is Mine fanfic.

Speaker 7:
[57:31] Yes.

Speaker 5:
[57:32] So she is working on a track on her next album and it's The Boy Is Mine. And she said it was like a stripped down mournful version. And she was like, wait a minute, I see this as a duet. And she's like, can you guys call Monica? Because I think she thinks I hate her and ask her if she'll do it with me. And they come back and they're like, she said to call yourself. And so she calls Monica. Monica's like, just call me yourself. Like, let's go hang. And they go to, is it Magic Mountain? They go to some roller coaster extravaganza.

Speaker 6:
[58:01] Somewhere in Atlanta. Yeah. Like a Six Flags.

Speaker 5:
[58:05] Six Flags. Yeah, she loves Magic Mountain and Six Flags. And so they go hang out all day and ride roller coasters until they get recognized and people start going crazy and they leave. But it's so cool these two teenage women in the business at the same time getting to like talk to each other for the first time. That to me is where the fanfic is. Like that you could be friends through this.

Speaker 6:
[58:23] Yeah. There's something so beautiful about it being such a teen driven activity, right? Like a music and parts is such a big high school activity. And I don't think Monica had a traditional high school career either. So like they get to have this moment. Like that's a field trip for high schools. We're going to the park.

Speaker 5:
[58:40] So like you can't be like complaining about your pop stardom and money to a fellow 17 year old who's like going high school. Like they would resent you. They don't understand this is like one of the few people in the world who could really understand her.

Speaker 6:
[58:53] Right.

Speaker 5:
[58:54] They record The Boy Is Mine and it's just immediately out of this world. They up the tempo. They're like, holy shit. And then when we returned to LA, she wrote, We learned that Monica wanted to recut her vocal with her own producer and that she immediately feels bad of like, oh, the session she did with me, she doesn't like. But then she said, her vocals are better with a new producer. And I'm sure her producer was like, you can do better than this. Then she said, the song blows up. And without warning, Clive announced he was renaming Monica's album to The Boy Is Mine, because it was a track on Brandy's album and it blew up and he wanted equal ownership of the song. And she said, she blamed Monica before she ever knew the full story. She said, neither of us truly wielded that much power in those days. We were teenagers in a world where men twice our age made decisions about our careers, our images, our narratives, but instead she was mad at her.

Speaker 6:
[59:43] I do appreciate that she acknowledged that like, oh, I was mad at the time, but I also realize now that we were kids.

Speaker 5:
[59:49] Yeah, absolutely. And she later writes, and then the feud gets worse when she has the opportunity to go on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno and promote her album and sing the song, but Monica is unavailable. So she's saying it alone, singing both parts.

Speaker 7:
[60:07] That doesn't sound like a good performance.

Speaker 6:
[60:08] It doesn't sound like a good performance, but she justifies it with like, well, we have to promote it.

Speaker 5:
[60:14] And I think that, yeah, they were fighting over this song they created together. And she said they then hate each other for years to come. That takes years to remove. So then she said they were both booked for the VMAs, and then the Grammys, and then they were nominated for best R&B performance. And then she said they won the Grammy, and her and Monica like race up and win it. And she said, the lesson wasn't lost on either of us. The industry would always try and create narratives that served its purpose, especially for young black women. But we had the power to write our own stories, to define our own relationships, to control our own legacies. So loved that chapter. And it's going to come back a little bit.

Speaker 6:
[60:55] I have a question for you. Because she talks about how the whole point was supposed to be subversive, like us doing this was supposed to be subversive. What did you think about that? Like her saying that and not anticipating that there would become this true rivalry.

Speaker 5:
[61:10] Yeah, I mean, I think that was the thing is, it's genius. It's one of the biggest hits of the time. They try and recreate that magic later and don't. The fact that she had the wherewithal to bring her onto a duet and get to work with her on something so they wouldn't be enemies, even though the song is about feuding over a boy. And then it turns into an actual feud. It sounds like 17-year-old decision making. Now, did you not believe it?

Speaker 6:
[61:36] I had a moment where I was like, I'm surprised that you didn't realize it would turn into a real feud. That surprised me that she didn't have that foresight. But then again, she is 17, 18 years old.

Speaker 5:
[61:48] And they had that great day riding roller coasters. Before they even decide to do this, I think she thought it was a friend. Also, this splits the money on the song. So there's no way you'd be like, would you like to get a bunch of money with me? And we're going to perform a lot together, even though I think we're probably going to feud later. Like, no, she had no idea it was coming. Yeah. And they didn't protect them. And I'm sure all the men played into it. All right. She does a made for TV movie with Diana Ross. And I only have one thing from the entire chapter I want to say, which is at one point she's struggling. She's overworked. She's had no childhood. She goes to her mom for help. Her mom is like, I can't help you. I'm your manager now. You need to get to work. Said with love supposedly. And she finally goes to Diana Ross on set and she's like, how do you do it all? Like how do you have a life? How do you have boundaries? But also do music and also act. And like, how do you do this because I'm dying? And Diana Ross said, I've got three pieces of advice for you.

Speaker 7:
[62:43] No chewing gum while talking.

Speaker 5:
[62:45] It's distracting and unprofessional. She tapped my jaw lightly. Set up straight, posture is presence. She placed a finger between my shoulder blades, encouraging me to straighten my spine and keep your knees together because the cameras are always watching even when you think they aren't. I said, worst advice ever.

Speaker 6:
[63:05] Sounds like advice from Motown.

Speaker 5:
[63:08] I was like, oh, poor Diana Ross. Poor, poor, to grow up in life and a young girl asks you for help and that's the advice you pass on. Just misery, intergenerational misery.

Speaker 6:
[63:22] It gave me the whole like, oh yeah, you were taught. Like, I don't know if you've ever seen this documentary. This is kind of, I promise it's related. There's this documentary that went on in the 90s. It was a music documentary and they did a whole episode dedicated to Motown and they interviewed the etiquette coach. I don't know what her official name is that like coached like the Supremes, all of the girl groups that Motown brought in and maybe even some of the guys, but it was very clear. She was working with the women. This woman, Drip, head to toe, she looks fantastic. She's probably in her like 80s at this point. However, that advice sounds exactly like her interview from that documentary.

Speaker 5:
[64:03] Because it was your knees. I remember one time some old man friend of like a stepdad or something of mine, so I don't know how he got in my life, but I have this clear memory of him being like, best advice for you, always keep a nickel between your knees. I didn't understand it for a second until I realized like, oh, so you can't open your legs.

Speaker 6:
[64:20] Thank you, sir.

Speaker 5:
[64:23] Keep your knees closed, Brandy. I'm sad for both of them, not mad at Diana Ross. I'm sad for both of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[64:29] Just this idea that, again, like the road to femininity, to being respected as a woman.

Speaker 5:
[64:35] And a black woman. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 7:
[64:38] So now we've got a Dringo.

Speaker 5:
[64:40] Oh, my least favorite Dringo of all. She lists her exact weight. 24 inches around my waist, size two jeans, 115 on the scale. And she talks about the pressure to stay extremely thin, especially in those years, which were the heroin chic years. And this, plus she's been working non-stop without a day of rest. Like she can barely get that day to go ride roller coasters for years and years and years. She feels like she's lost her mom. And then she starts dating someone she calls the Dreamer. And she says he's a backup dancer, but given that details may have been changed, I'm not sure that's correct. But she says it turns into deep, deep emotional abuse. And one of her memories is that he called her a bitch 13 times in 20 minutes once. And her mom, I got to tell you, I actually think this is great. As long as your child's a reader, her mom gives her a book about verbal abuse. And Brandy's like, no, it's fine. But then one day when things get really bad with him, she runs into her bedroom and opens it and realizes that's the relationship she's in. I was given a brutal book that saved my life. It was, I'm going to say a little too late. It was after the relationship. But it was called Saving Beauty from the Beast. What a title. It really did change my life though, because it was this thing where you think you're just like all alone, because you're also a teenager, so you think that. And then a book basically writes a prescription to everything that just happened to you. But I do think, I don't know how y'all feel out there. I guess this is a book podcast, I think it's a really beautiful way to get through to someone who doesn't want things to get through to them. A book, a podcast, another tool where you can take in content about what's happening to you without having to face someone who loves you where you are instantly defensive and unwilling to hear it.

Speaker 6:
[66:25] Yeah, and I think in this case too with Brandy, what I'm reading between the lines, because of her relationship with Wanya, because of her relationships with other men in the past, maybe her parents didn't feel like this was a situation that they could approach because her mom did confront her politely about Wanya and was like, are we sure this is just friendly? Like this feels more. And she was like, it's absolutely, we're just friends. And too, when you're dating in high school or high school age and you're-

Speaker 5:
[66:50] And she knew to lie. She knew her parents would shut it down.

Speaker 6:
[66:53] Exactly. And so I think like her mom sending her this book and then saying, call me when you read it, is really powerful because she knew, this is the only way my daughter is going to understand what she's going through. And that's really hard. It was really, really, really hard to read.

Speaker 5:
[67:10] Absolutely.

Speaker 6:
[67:10] About the dreamer.

Speaker 5:
[67:12] And also I hated the name she gave him because she never really talked about why he was the dreamer. It's a pretty precious name. Like could have been the demon and said he's the dreamer. I imagine it's some jab at him of like, I don't know, he was probably always like, I'm going to start an ice cream company or whatever that he never did. But other than that, I'm like, why is he the dreamer? Because he was jealous of her success maybe.

Speaker 6:
[67:38] And was very vocal about being jealous of her success.

Speaker 5:
[67:41] And it sounded similar to Wanya. Like it just sounded like you've been groomed into this relationship. She's probably 20 here. And all of this leads her to have a nervous breakdown. A true nervous breakdown where she has left the dreamer, but one day on set for Moesha, she just walks off set and keeps driving and is just sounds like delusional and hallucinating. And she calls the dreamer who is treats her terribly and her family comes and she's kind of hallucinating and laughing and being like, I'm fine. And finally, her mom makes sure she has a break. And again, she writes wonderfully about her mom. But something I read between the lines is that there were a couple of times in this book that she approaches her mom and tells her it's too much and she needs a break and her mom is like, you wanted this?

Speaker 6:
[68:30] No.

Speaker 5:
[68:32] And I feel like those are moments when key things were missed and led to this. And then here her mom gives her a break from Moesha and then says, this was beautiful. She said, I'm not going to be your manager anymore because I need to be your mom. I thought that was stunning.

Speaker 6:
[68:47] And that's got to be so hard because what's the line there? Motherhood's already super hard and trying to understand the balance of I want to support my kids' dreams, especially when it's an unconventional dream, especially when there's no guarantee that they're going to make enough money to live. It's not like you're like, yeah, babe, being an accountant, you're always going to have a job. It is a very like, you're taking a big risk here.

Speaker 5:
[69:09] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[69:10] And she, in that balance of like caring for your daughter, but then also business, business, business, that's such a hard position to be in.

Speaker 5:
[69:19] I have something terrible to say. And I know there are reps who listen to this podcast and my manager listens, but I still, I'm sorry, I have to say this.

Speaker 7:
[69:29] Manager is motherhood.

Speaker 5:
[69:32] Oh. It's motherhood via business. But wow, are you mothering someone? It's built into the relationship when you're an artist. And that's crazy to say because a lot of people out there got some bad mommies, but like it is the motherhood of your career. When you are also a teenager and you're in all these vicarious positions legally and paperwork with people, like I can understand the desire for a mom to be like, I will take that role because not taking the role of manager with teenage daughter probably feels like letting someone else parent them. And yet, it can't be the best option given what's happened classically with all the momagers out there.

Speaker 6:
[70:15] When the mom did say, I'll be your mom, I wrote momager in the margin. But what you're saying makes perfect sense because that nurturing element is so important just in relationships in general, whether it's romantic or platonic or business, you don't want to be in relationship with somebody who doesn't care about your personhood. Yes.

Speaker 5:
[70:38] The stuff outside of business. Because even when you're managing business, you're managing the person as a whole, their time, their creativity, their money, all these things that are just like add up to like your life. That's why I say it's motherhood because you're managing a lot of things in this person's life. So yeah, I love that she took a step back, but then later in the book, she's going to be like, I needed my mom back as my manager, it's the only time I felt good. So she clearly has a tricky relationship.

Speaker 6:
[71:03] That was a flip for me where I was like, again, I wish you would be comfortable sharing more about how this relationship might have been volatile or not, because it felt very much like you just went 200 pages telling us how much you hated having your mom as a manager and now you want her back. I need to understand, well, it's whatever.

Speaker 5:
[71:23] When she said that, I was like, wait, what? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, everyone, you just heard a whole lot of what happened. Guess what happens next. Guess, everyone thinking ahead, what comes next? Someone out there got it. I know it.

Speaker 7:
[71:36] She's like, I'm really into the Torah.

Speaker 5:
[71:38] Now I'm into Scientology and I'm learning from Deepak Chopra. I said, oh no, we've really hit rock bottom. Why is Hollywood, I mean, Scientology, baby girl?

Speaker 7:
[71:50] Who got to Brandy?

Speaker 6:
[71:52] I panicked. I was like, please, is she, please don't.

Speaker 7:
[71:55] Please don't. She does.

Speaker 5:
[71:57] It sounds like she was like, okay, I'm not going to become Jewish, but I'll read the Torah and the Quran, but I'm not going to become Muslim. Love and Scientology. Then she backs away from that. I'm worried Deepak Chopra stayed, stayed in her life. And at this point, this is where I'd like to, this is where I'd like to tell everyone that Deepak Chopra is in the Epstein files, emailing Epstein to bring his harem of girls to his spiritual talks. Oh, I just love that I've always hated him. It makes me feel so good. But she's casually mentioning these men who you're like, wait, that's a questionable man. What are you going to say about him? And then she's like, loved meeting Michael Jackson, fell back in my chair. And I get it for that moment, that time, but again, you're writing this in 2025.

Speaker 6:
[72:36] In 2025, like we have so many documentaries at this point. It's not as quiet secret. People, we know.

Speaker 5:
[72:44] We know.

Speaker 6:
[72:45] It's in pop culture.

Speaker 7:
[72:46] We know, do you know? Don't seem like you know.

Speaker 6:
[72:50] Because again, it's like one of those things where it's like in our black household, this conversation comes up all the time. Like how much of Michael Jackson are we still allowed to listen to? Like this is a regular conversation. So I'm just like, Brandy, it's 2025 when you're probably writing this book. Read the room, read the room. We can have an appreciation for the music and the things that he did. And also both things can be true.

Speaker 5:
[73:12] Both things can be true. I don't think she has that with people in her life. I don't feel like she can include the bad about them.

Speaker 6:
[73:17] I agree, I agree. That's why I feel like there's a level of like she's removed from the stories about herself that she's telling.

Speaker 5:
[73:24] Yes, I agree. All right, there's two giant stories we have to get to. And then the book is over because the entire book is probably up until 18 and then like 40 pages more on the rest of her life. So the next huge thing that happens is that she gets pregnant with a guy named Robert. And she writes more about these horrible relationships than she wrote about Robert, which is like, he's a friend. And I got pregnant and it happened so fast. And she's like, I'm thrilled. And in 2002, Brandy announces she's going to have a child.

Speaker 6:
[73:53] How old was she here?

Speaker 5:
[73:54] 22.

Speaker 6:
[73:55] 22 probably.

Speaker 5:
[73:56] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[73:57] And 22, 23.

Speaker 5:
[73:58] As you said, she had the relationship of, I'm not even going to show my midriff. So to be unmarried and to be so young, having a child, which is also something else we talk about in memoirs of women in the spotlight, having a child or marrying someone as a way to take control back of their life. I don't know if that plays into this because she didn't write too much about it. But then she's like, and then there was no spark with Robert. And so we separated. And then she said, this is what I want to read about it. Now, when she wrote this, I said so much is missing here. But she wrote this. She's like, you know, we became friends and we were co-parenting and everything was lovely. And then she said, I heard Wendy Williams announce with barely contained glee that she had scored an exclusive interview with Brandy's ex. The word sliced through my exhaustion like a cold blade. My brain penballed between panic and disbelief. He wouldn't. Why would he speak to anyone, let alone the self-proclaimed queen of gossip about us, about me, about the motherless child? And basically, because she knew she was going to get heat for being unmarried but also was not ready to marry him. They agreed they would just lie and people would say, why aren't you married? They would say, we are. And that this would help her save face. And then he goes on Wendy Williams after they've broken up and he says, quote, there was never a marriage. He proceeded to tell Wendy and by extension the entire world, that we had fabricated our marriage to protect my pristine image, that I had been, quote, the other woman, that he had reconnected with his girlfriend who was now carrying his child. And most devastating of all, that the entire charade had been orchestrated by my mother. Now what killed me about this book is that she never was like, no, it wasn't. Or I can't believe he cheated on me with another woman who's having his child just as I've just had his child. She doesn't address it in a way that made me go, is some of it true? I don't understand what's happening.

Speaker 6:
[75:54] She was so calm in writing about the absolute betrayal of him saying this on national television. I was like, I am a woman who has a baby daddy. We are finally peaceful because that child turned 18 and became peaceful. I no longer have to orchestrate shit. But it's like, I was shocked at how she was so just like, call about it, restrained about it. And like the idea of like, well, she's the other woman. I have somebody else. This was no big deal. But then also in the three paragraphs she wrote about him prior to, talking about how important he was and how good he made her feel and how cared for she was. And I was just like, what happened? Where is, what happened? How do you get from this man made me feel very secure in my pregnancy. Great. Love that. To he is going on television. Like I felt like that happened a lot in the book Chelsea, where she was like, this guy is great. This guy is great. And then, oh my God, he betrayed me. And you're just like, at some point Brandy, I need you to go to therapy, which I'm pretty sure she acknowledges later that she did. But there's something about this whole situation. Like, what's the right, like, what is this cycle that we're in that we're constantly getting betrayed? I'm not blaming her. That is not what I'm doing. But I'm very confused about how I'm constantly in this story with her where she's like, and then I was betrayed. And you're just like, what?

Speaker 5:
[77:29] I know, I know. And also like, I get being betrayed over and over again. It happens. It's weird that she just doesn't write about it. She's like, he said these things anyways. Like, wait, what do you think about that? Why did he say that? Why did he say her mom orchestrated it? She then, she basically loses everything. She loses her cover girl deal. She loses, I mean, her entire career goes down. She has to go on Oprah. She doesn't have to, but she goes on Oprah.

Speaker 2:
[77:56] We recently learned that she got married and is... She's married now.

Speaker 5:
[78:04] In a Where Are They Now episode, admits she lied about it because she felt the pressure of having to be perfect and apologized to Oprah for lying to her.

Speaker 10:
[78:12] I felt like having a child out of wedlock would ruin that. It would ruin my career, everything that I had built. And I'm really sorry for that because, I mean, you just don't lie to Oprah. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[78:25] I mean, this is brutal and she loses everything from this. And she said, I have paid incalculable costs for that single decision. The judgment I fled from found me anyway, raising questions that haunt me still. What if I had embraced honesty from the beginning? How much of the backlash stemmed from my pregnancy outside marriage and how much from the deception itself? After years of crafting an immaculate image, I'm certain the reaction would have been severe had I told the truth initially, and my child would have suffered. Yet ultimately, I'm at the same fate anyway.

Speaker 6:
[78:52] I was not a good girl, but I also wasn't a bad girl. But I didn't have a good girl reputation to protect, but also child out of wedlock, also very, very young. I was a teenager when I got pregnant, but I was 20 by the time that kid came around. And so I understand this secrecy around it. I understand this fear, especially when you come from... I mean, her dad is the music director at their church. There's this level to it where it's like, we can't acknowledge that this great sin has happened because it is such a sin and we have failed. It's not a personal failure, it's a familial failure. And especially at that time, because I think it was like a couple years later that I had my child. So when she's talking about the secrecy of it all, I felt that very deeply because there's this element to it where you're just like, we don't want anybody to know, but also we love the baby. And you're just like, but not you, but not you, but not you. And I do think, and this is where I am judging, I'm so sorry, but also not really sorry. I do think hitting it head on and just being like, yeah, this shit happened, sorry. Like I was pressured to marry that man. I said, no, well, you can't have a baby out of wedlock. Watch me. I don't want to be legally tied to that person. Like respect that decision. And so like, it hurt in the beginning, but by the time the first birthday came around, nobody gave a fuck. Really? It was over. It was a non-issue. Like, oh, whoops. You know, we had a little mistake. But then there's this human that is innocent and beautiful and represents this like great, I don't know, ball of just like anything is possible. And everyone just like falls in love because I've heard a rumor that being a grandparent is better than being a parent. And like, it just sort of happens. Would that have happened for Brandy? I'm making an assumption, her career, whatever. I can't speak to that. I do believe that her family would have been okay.

Speaker 5:
[81:00] Well, definitely, it sounds like her parents, at least the way she wrote the book, because they were always happy and fine about it and that it was for the public. Julia, thank you for sharing that story. I feel like that's just like so inspiring and beautiful. And also the way you talk about like all of a sudden there's this gift and this child that wipes everything away. That's kind of what happens to Brandy in the book. When she has Sarah, she's just sort of like all of it was worth it. And I'm just here to protect her. And I don't care that Robert did that to me. Moving on, I'm protecting my child. But I mean, this is really going to be sort of the moment when Brandy starts to leave pop culture in the way we knew her in it. And who do you think manages her? Guest in your head, guest in your head. It's Benny Medina. Benny Medina, JLo's infamous manager. I said, well, no wonder you miss your mom. I can't imagine Benny Medina did a great job. I don't think you did. And then we get to the other huge part of the book, which when this book was coming out, I said, is she going to write about the car accident? And I don't know what happened to my brain, but this car accident was in my head. Almost like you hear it from so many other people and so many other people that you like don't even know the story. I had, I remember this and had no details of the story. Correct, in my memory. I'm curious how you think she wrote about it. Basically, in 2006, this is from a report on TMZ, so not her book. Brandy was driving her Land Rover at 65 miles per hour and did not notice that the cars in front of her had slowed considerably. We're told Brandy's vehicle struck a Toyota in front of her. That Toyota then hit another Toyota, and then the car in the middle slid sideways and hit the center divider, and then it was struck by another car, and the woman driving that car died. In Brandy's book, I think what I really appreciated is that she just really centers the woman whose life was lost. The thing she writes that's different from the reporting is that she said, it was an accident, a tragic convergence of circumstance and human error, but a woman lost her life and I had lived. Then later her mom is like, why don't you speak out right now? Like why don't you speak out? And then Courtney who I think is a publicist said, why don't you speak out? People haven't fully heard from you Courtney said, his voice gentle but insistent. What is the purpose in doing that? I asked to clear the air he said, why? Because I want a career again, my voice cracked on the edges, this shouldn't be about me. He said, if you fully share your story, you can move on. And one of the things you should address is how you were treated by the media during this time, he suggested. He toned careful, measured each word like it might break me. Like a murderer, I whispered, finally meeting his gaze. Quote, people are going to want to know exactly what happened. My mother interjected, her eyes holding mine. Brandy, being the fourth or fifth car in the collision herself, doesn't really know what happened. And she writes that the collision had already happened, and then her car became a part of it. All of the press reports are like Brandy started it. And she navigates that as much as she can, while saying it didn't really matter because this woman died, and I never know what to do with myself after that. And she said, I began to listen to the Internet, and I began to believe I was the awful, reckless monster that the Internet and thus the world believed me to be. And she said, the grief has never left me. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[84:21] And it made me wonder too, like, does she even remember what was going through her mind at the time of the accident? Because she does talk about how it's in fragments, you know, it's so easy to zone out when you're driving and not necessarily realize, like, oh, traffic has slowed down because it's so easy to just be in your head. And so it made me kind of wonder, like, was she maybe, I don't know, thought distracted because baby daddy's doing something weird? I don't know.

Speaker 5:
[84:45] And we think that, but she wrote, like, I was clear headed. I was not foggy. I was not tired. Like, that's what she wrote in the book.

Speaker 6:
[84:51] I trust that she knows her own mind. I also know that when you're behind the wheel and you're. I guess it's me wanting to believe that how do you miss brake lights when you're going 65 miles? And so I'm giving her like.

Speaker 5:
[85:08] I think that's also the difference. What's reported is that she missed brake lights and at 65 miles per hour slammed into the car in front of her. What's written in the book is that those cars had already been in a collision and she's the fourth or fifth car to join. It's very different. And I don't know what to say to that. Two versions are written down.

Speaker 6:
[85:26] Exactly. No charges are pressed.

Speaker 5:
[85:28] They look into it. They're like, it's fully accidental. I don't know. But also, yeah, when a life is lost, like you really feel her grief because then book over. Book over. Oh, I kept saying there's only two more things.

Speaker 7:
[85:40] There's two more things.

Speaker 5:
[85:45] She and Monica try and do another duet, which obviously did not hit the way The Boy Is Mine did. And the night when they're performing at the Beverly Hilton, that's the night that Whitney dies and Brandy had been talking to her for three hours on the phone the day before. Three hours. And none of that relationship is in the book. And then when Whitney passes, she's just utterly devastated. And we don't get more than that. And her and Monica are devastated. They loved her so much. And like three days after Whitney's funeral, they're like, you have to do the music video. And they did it. And I'm like, we have not learned to say no.

Speaker 6:
[86:21] Right.

Speaker 5:
[86:22] And like, I should talk.

Speaker 7:
[86:23] But like, say no.

Speaker 5:
[86:25] No.

Speaker 6:
[86:28] It's hard. Yeah.

Speaker 7:
[86:29] And this is devastating.

Speaker 5:
[86:31] This is the final thing that happens to the book. I mean, this is page 345 and the book ends at 358. She plays Roxie Hart on Broadway.

Speaker 6:
[86:42] Chelsea, when I read that, I was like, oh my God, how lucky am I to read a memoir for Glamorous Trash, where the writer gets to play Roxie Hart. I am God's favorite in this moment.

Speaker 5:
[86:55] I mean, where do you think we're at in terms of memoirs that end with them playing Roxie Hart?

Speaker 7:
[87:00] I feel like we're at 13.

Speaker 6:
[87:01] That feels-

Speaker 5:
[87:02] I bet I could list 13 women who have played Roxie Hart and written about it as the resurgence of their life inside their memoir. And when they weren't doing that, they were on Dancing with the Stars or both.

Speaker 6:
[87:12] And that's the picture, that's the final picture in the picture is her as Roxie Hart.

Speaker 7:
[87:17] Her as Roxie, she's like, Roxie brought me back to life.

Speaker 5:
[87:20] And you know what, Brandy is so fucking talented. So we've got a real talented Roxie on our hands. I love that we've got a non-white Roxie leading the show. I hate this. I hate this.

Speaker 7:
[87:31] I said no.

Speaker 5:
[87:32] And you know what my note is? You're writing about Roxie Hart, but you're not going to write about Queens.

Speaker 7:
[87:38] The TV show about a girl group starring you and Yves that clearly ended with so much drama that you didn't even mention it.

Speaker 5:
[87:48] But you're on Broadway as Roxie Hart, but no Queens?

Speaker 6:
[87:51] But no Queens. She's like, we're not doing that. My goal in life was to be Roxie Hart. And I didn't know that until they offered me Roxie Hart.

Speaker 5:
[87:59] And now I am happy. And then I wrote a memoir and I asked my daughter Sarah if people wanted to hear from me or if I was irrelevant. She said people wanted to hear. And she was right, Brandy. We want to hear from you. We want to hear from you.

Speaker 6:
[88:10] Can I just say, I actually really did love how she protected her daughter from the fact that she was Brandy for the first couple of years. Because I was thinking about it in contrast to the Beckhams, who it's like their kids were berated by media from they were in utero and they had no, you know, it's like it's from the jump. But here's Brandy, granted not great how she had to like sort of recluse in that way. But I did really love, it felt to me like she was like, I'm prioritizing this child's development in a relationship with me as her mother. And so then when they, whatever holiday it was when they're all together and they pop in the tapes and she's just like running to the room is like, that's my mom.

Speaker 5:
[88:50] She's crying.

Speaker 7:
[88:51] She's like, you're famous and you sang these songs and you didn't tell me.

Speaker 6:
[88:57] I felt like it allowed her to actually develop an authentic relationship with her daughter and not be like, well, I'm Brandy's daughter.

Speaker 5:
[89:03] That's so beautiful. And also Brandy probably didn't get to have many authentic relationships with people. So the fact that she got one with her daughter and her daughter gets one with her before all this stuff entered the chat. Yeah, that is really beautiful. I think, yeah, I'm really glad you said that. I read it a different way where I'm like, you just went away and nothing in your life in the past 15 years was worth writing about besides Roxy. This can't be true. All right. Let's do the Booktel test. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth?

Speaker 6:
[89:32] I think the author thinks she's vulnerable in sharing her truth because how disappointed were you that the acknowledgments were half a page?

Speaker 5:
[89:39] So disappointed. I said at least there'll be secrets here. No, no secrets.

Speaker 6:
[89:41] No. Because she does talk about in the acknowledgments about how much she gave of herself to write this book. And I was like, I feel like you were not the friend to sit in a car after an event when I'm dropping you off and we're having the deepest heart to heart. Like I don't think that exists for her.

Speaker 5:
[89:58] Maybe she didn't grow up with girlfriends like that.

Speaker 7:
[90:00] Maybe she, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[90:01] Yeah. And that's, you know, but I feel like she felt like she was being vulnerable. And that's, I have to accept that. She felt like she was being vulnerable and I have to accept that.

Speaker 5:
[90:12] She felt like she was being vulnerable and I have to accept that. Great. And I'm going to say she felt like she was being vulnerable and I do not accept. Do not memoir unless you want a memoir, baby. Do not memoir unless you will memoir. I got to tell you, for two of those chapters, The Boy Is Mine chapter and The Boyz II Men chapter, I think it was absolutely worth it. And I give her it all for those two chapters. So I'm so glad the book came out. But yes, I think she held a lot back. Okay. Second question, was it entertaining to read?

Speaker 6:
[90:38] I think the chapters that we really honed in on were like the Boyz II Men chapter, the Versus chapter. There's a third one, it obviously made a great impact because I can't remember the title of it. Those chapters, I was riveted, right? Like, oh my gosh, like this is insane. But I think, you know, I'm going to stand by my, it plateaued for me. And then it got to the point where it's like, I gotta finish this book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5:
[90:59] I get it. I gotta tell you, I had a great time. I had a great time. But I did come off Eliza Minnelli's memoir, which was just like, no structure for 400 pages. And so just having a well-structured, each chapter ends with, you won't believe what happened next. I was having a great time. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way?

Speaker 6:
[91:18] I think that for me, I appreciate the nostalgia she gave me to live in because I am having experiences in life where I'm like, man, I would love to be able to go back to like 1996 and just be sitting in my aunt's house and we're all just doing our hair. That would heal me. So I appreciate having that unique experience of being a 90s kid and like an older millennial 90s kid sort of captured in that way because it's like, I didn't really experience the 90s as teenager, but I lived it through my teenager siblings. So there was something very like full circle about it and comforting. But I didn't learn anything new about myself. And that's something that I want when I read. Yes.

Speaker 5:
[92:05] Listen, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm going to say, I was almost to know. But then there was one piece of this that I'm going to read that elevated my life because it helped me understand some other people in my life who infuriate me. And reading this felt like reading inside their mind. And she said, I had been so afraid of failure that I would have done anything to keep going forward. I stopped trusting my instincts and second guessed myself because I wanted to please whatever label was giving me the opportunity to do music. In therapy, I later learned that I had been moving through life in a state called learned helplessness, which happens after a person is repeatedly exposed to negative or stressful situations. My therapist explained it like this. This is a tough metaphor. Imagine a dog repeatedly getting shocked in a cage and not being able to escape after, over and over, they might stop trying to find a way out even if the cage door suddenly opened. And I think viewing learned helplessness in someone else can be excruciating. But hearing it from inside her mind, I think it explains a lot of her decisions and a lot of— because she seems so powerful and so successful, and I think it explains a lot of the book as well, like this fear to tell the story.

Speaker 6:
[93:21] Yeah, I'd be curious what she would be vulnerable and open and willing to say in another 20 years.

Speaker 5:
[93:27] Totally agree. I think we could get another memoir in 20 years. Julia, this was so divine. Now that we finished the episode, I say yes, it was a psychic moment that you were the guest. I knew it. And before you go, we got to tell the cookies that our limited edition, Glamorous Trash merch candles are coming back. Julia handpours them and makes them our psychic moment candle, and my higher power is finding a woman who's down to fuck some shit up. Candles are going to be available for sale again on April 28th. You can find them in Julia's shop link. We will also be linking them on the socials and on the Patreon and in upcoming episodes. But on April 28th, you can buy Glamorous Trash candles again, just in time to get one for Mother's Day for your mother, or for yourself, or for a mother you know, or just for a random man to let him know to have a nice psychic moment day, or to let him know that your higher power is finding another woman who is down to fuck some shit up. Maybe with a little note that says, found one. So watch out. I don't know, I don't know what's going on in your lives, but those are gonna be available April 28th on Julia's shop. And Julia, please tell everyone where they can find you.

Speaker 6:
[94:46] You can find me on Instagram as the Julia Washington. There are hyperlinks in my profile there that will take you to everything, to take you to Pros and Glow, take you to the book club, all the things. And then on Patreon, it's just patreon.com/juliawashington. And yeah, like Chelsea plugged at the top, you can subscribe to the book club candle. You get the candle every month straight to your door. It comes with a brief description of the book to encourage you to read, because we love reading here. And yeah, sometimes I throw in extra goodies if I've got extra goodies. And I just, it's my favorite thing in the entire world to make. So please let me share it with you.

Speaker 5:
[95:23] And every candle is hand poured by Julia herself. It's all like organic and good stuff and curated and support small, powerful lady businesses.

Speaker 6:
[95:33] Yes, everything is hand poured. Everything is in small batches. And I do that on purpose to make sure that the quality is there.

Speaker 5:
[95:41] Thank you so much for doing this podcast with me and we will see you all again soon. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez, our executive producer, Jordan Moncada, our sound engineer, Marcus Hom and our amazing associate producer, Dominique Banius. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Quince. We will link those incredible brands in the show notes, so go check them out. Everything is always linked in the show notes. On Apple, there's also transcripts. And if you ever have questions, go to the Patreon chat lounge and I'll see you there.