transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:30] I tell people this all the time when they think about their participation in the Mass. It is an opportunity for them to think bigger and to have an experience bigger about their life. We invite people, pray, my brothers and sisters, that my sacrifice and yours will be acceptable to God the Father Almighty. So what that really is telling people is that the sacrifices that they make, the sufferings that they have in their life are really part of the bigger project of Jesus redeeming the world, of saving the world, that we get to be a part of that.

Speaker 3:
[01:09] Welcome to The Spiritual Life. I'm Fr. Jim Martin. On this podcast, we reflect on how people experience God in their prayer and in their daily lives, and I'm joined by my wonderful producer, Maggie Van Dorn. Maggie, good to be with you.

Speaker 4:
[01:22] It's great to be here with you, Jim. And we have a really exciting guest this time. We're speaking with Cardinal Blase Cupich.

Speaker 3:
[01:31] Yeah, the Archbishop of Chicago, and he's had many other roles and has many important roles in the church. I'm sure a lot of our listeners know him. But can you tell us a little bit more about Cardinal Cupich, Maggie?

Speaker 4:
[01:42] Yes, happily. So Cardinal Blase Cupich was born in Omaha, Nebraska. He's one of nine children with five sisters and three brothers. And today he serves as the Archbishop of Chicago, one of the largest and most influential diocese in the United States. Before then, he served as the bishop of Rapid City, South Dakota, and as the bishop of Spokane, Washington. Cardinal Cupich was appointed Archbishop of Chicago by Pope Francis in 2014 and elevated to the College of Cardinals in 2016. Since then, he has been appointed to a number of Vatican offices, or dicasteries as they're called, including the Dicastery for Bishops, the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, and the Dicastery for Culture and Education. Cardinal Cupich also serves on the USECB. Committee on Migration and the Subcommittee for the Church in Central and Eastern Europe. That's quite a lot of experience.

Speaker 3:
[02:36] It is, and he's probably most well known these days, I mean in the past year or so, for his outspoken support of migrants, particularly as the Church discusses this. He was a great friend of Pope Francis and is a friend of his fellow Chicagoan, Pope Leo, who we talk about.

Speaker 4:
[02:53] Yeah, they go way back. They do.

Speaker 3:
[02:55] So really happy to have him on the show. He's really a very important person in our Church today, both in the US and internationally.

Speaker 4:
[03:03] And one of the things that he really contributed to this episode of The Spiritual Life, I think was kind of retrieving very traditional prayers that he uses. And one of those is the Lectio Divina. So Jim, would you tell us what is Lectio Divina?

Speaker 3:
[03:22] Yeah. And it's important to say that Lectio Divina and Ignatian Contemplation or composition of place, they're those terms are used interchangeably. And Cardinal Cupich has a kind of an Ignatian way of looking at Lectio. So Lectio Divina basically means sacred reading. It's a tradition that started with the monks, if not before that. Fr. Dan Harrington used to say that there were four steps in Lectio Divina. Again, there are many ways of looking at this, but his four steps are what does the text say? So what's going on in this passage? What does the text say to me? What's going on for me? What do I want to say to God about this text? And what difference will this text make in my life? So it really is kind of taking the text and trying to understand where you fit into it, where God is influencing you, and what difference it will make in your life. Now, that's distinguished in many places from Ignatian Contemplation, which is imagining yourself in the scene. It's a little more sort of visual, right? A little more free form, not that kind of those questions and answers. Cardinal Cupich uses Lectio but also uses Ignatian Contemplation when he's doing Lectio. So, strictly speaking, those two things are often talked about as different, but of course they overlap, right? So when you're thinking about what does this text say to me, you might imagine yourself in the text. So, Maggie, I'm curious, when you have used scripture, what does it incline more to, the kind of question and answer and the insight, or is it more putting yourself in the scene and a kind of Ignatian Contemplation? What would you say?

Speaker 4:
[04:55] Yeah, sure. So I was introduced to the Ignatian Contemplation of scriptures, definitely first, before I heard of Lectio Divina. I think I tend towards a little bit more free form, imaginative, creative engagement. Although I do like this dialectical kind of engagement that Lectio Divina invites us into. I think what I've always loved about it is it incorporates our whole selves, our whole imagination, our senses, our deepest longings tend to emerge when we are engaging with scripture in such a robust way.

Speaker 3:
[05:34] Yeah, and using our imagination and really being able to enter into it in a fresh way. One thing I want to say before we get all these notes from our listeners and viewers is that Lectio can be done in many ways. So I'm sure there are people out there saying, no, that's not the way I was taught, Lectio. It's these four steps or these five steps. There are many ways of doing it. And one of the great things about listening to Cardinal Cupich is he shares very personally his way of praying with scripture. So that's a really important part of our conversation coming up.

Speaker 4:
[06:04] Now, the other traditional practice that Cardinal Cupich introduced to the conversation is the Liturgy of the Hours. And this also has gone by different names over the centuries, the Divine Office, canonical hours, and then it's contained within the Brewery. So what are the Liturgy of the Hours?

Speaker 3:
[06:24] Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking about how to define them. It's basically a series of prayers, mostly Psalms, that people pray over on a regular basis throughout the day. Now, the monks would pray at five or seven times a day, right, if you're in a monastery. Priests and deacons make a promise at their ordination to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, right, daily. Lay people can pray it. There's lots of different ways that you can pray it. It is contained in a book that is usually called a Brewery. And I'll tell you a funny story about this. When I entered the Society of Jesus, the Jesuit and the Vichate, we were given a list of things to bring, black pants, this, that. And one of them was a Brewery. And I didn't even know what it was. And it's spelled Breviary, right? That's how it's spelled. And I went to a religious goods store in Norristown, Pennsylvania, near where I grew up. And I asked them for some clerical shirts and this and that. And I said, and I also need a Brewery. And I remember thinking they could bring out a piece of clothing, a book, a statue. I wouldn't know what it was. And they brought out this red book and they said, here's your Brewery. And I thought, okay, thanks very much. So Liturgy of the Hours are the prayers, right, that are done on a regular basis by monks and priests and deacons and lay people. It is contained in a book called The Brewery. So Cardinal Cupich talks about his experience praying the Liturgy of the Hours, which is also quite moving to listen to.

Speaker 4:
[07:52] Yeah, it is all very beautiful. And it's this very formatted kind of structured way to bring you through the day, to sanctify the hours of the day. And I really appreciated that he was able to retrieve this part of the tradition and at least present it to me anew.

Speaker 3:
[08:09] Yeah, it's a great intro from the Cardinal.

Speaker 4:
[08:12] And then of course we have an audience question that Fr. Jim and Cardinal Cupich will answer together. And this question comes from Joan. And she asks, why is the Sacrament of Confession important to a person's spiritual life? So if you'd like to ask Fr. Jim a question, you can write to us at thespirituallifeatamericamedia.org.

Speaker 3:
[08:35] And now on to our conversation with His Eminence Cardinal Blase Cupich, Archbishop of Chicago. Your Eminence, welcome to The Spiritual Life.

Speaker 2:
[08:51] Thank you, Fr. Jim, I'm glad to be with you.

Speaker 3:
[08:53] Thanks for making time for us. Cardinal Cupich, I'd like to start off just with your own story. Can you give us a bit of a story of your religious upbringing and your vocation to the priesthood?

Speaker 2:
[09:05] Well, thank you. I grew up in a family of nine children. We were about four blocks from the church. The church was like a second home to us because not only were we daily in school at the parish church, but on Wednesdays we would go up and learn Croatian folk dances and songs. It was a Croatian ethnic parish. Then of course on the weekend, we were all involved in the choir one way or another, my dad in the Croatian choir and the rest of us in the choir that the sisters directed. So it was really I would say a very rich experience. And as I said, the parish was a second home to us.

Speaker 3:
[09:51] So what would you say, what would a Croatian Catholicism look like? And how did that influence you?

Speaker 2:
[09:57] Well, I think it was a matter of being able to have different songs in Croatian sung at a Mass. That member was all set in Latin. And to be able to be a part of that culture. But also then when it came to the various holidays, different foods would be prepared. And then on Holy Saturday, they would be blessed as we would have before Easter. Also by being a part of the choir on Christmas, on Christmas Day before we went home to have breakfast, we would go around and do Christmas carols for the people who were shut in, who couldn't get out. And so I remember that very vividly. It was just a matter of belonging to a neighborhood and a community of faith that we were proud of, proud as Catholics, but proud as Croatians.

Speaker 3:
[10:56] And when did Thoughts of the Priesthood start for you?

Speaker 2:
[10:59] So, the sisters in our grade school always talked of vocations. And the pastor came to my parents when I was graduating from eighth grade and said he would like to send me away to a seminary in Wisconsin that he went to. And he said, don't worry, we'll pay for everything. And my parents said, no, we're responsible for him in his teenage years. He should stay with us. And then afterwards, if he wants to go, then that's fine. Well, lo and behold, my brother, an older brother went in. And so I thought I was off the hook. You know, it was like a coupon, one for family. But it didn't work out that way. We both were in the seminary at the same time. He eventually left and I stayed in.

Speaker 3:
[11:44] So what was it about the priesthood that attracted you? What was the, what was the desire there?

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Well, I think as I told people before, I don't think that I really would have been enticed and found it inviting if it were not for the council. The council really grabbed my imagination that we were being called to be a church, not just in the social enclave of that I grew up in, but in a broader way of addressing the world. The church in the modern world, Gaudi and Spez particularly, but also the renewal of the liturgy made sense to me. I saw it as a way of going into the future in a way that could make a difference.

Speaker 3:
[12:26] So for listeners who don't know, we're talking about the Second Vatican Council in the early 60s. I find that really interesting that even as a young person, you found the council. So how old are you at this point when you're learning about the Second Vatican Council?

Speaker 2:
[12:38] Well, I was born in 49, so when I went into high school, it was, I graduated from high school in 1963, so the council was already going on. And we knew about the council. And of course, to the papacy of John XXIII, who really captured the imagination of people by his openness to the world and is very, I think, approachable way.

Speaker 3:
[13:04] I'm curious about your spiritual life back then. What was that formation like and what appealed to you?

Speaker 2:
[13:11] Well, I think it was, you know, the regular practices that we have of the Liturgy of Hours, the Rosary, Mass and so on. But also, I was introduced to Alexio Divina of how we can pray the scriptures in a way that opens us up to being present in the scene of the Gospel itself and to what it has to say.

Speaker 3:
[13:37] For people who don't know, I'm really curious. Can you introduce us to Alexio Divina? How would you encourage people to go about that? What are some of the steps that people could do?

Speaker 2:
[13:47] For me, the way that I use it is to be able to listen to that word, but not in a way in which you dissect it and exegete it for a meeting, for yourself, but rather to allow that word to speak to you, and to draw you into this scene within the Gospel, that's the Gospel story that's being told, and that would allow you to see that you're part of a much bigger world than what preoccupies your attention otherwise. So as a means of doing that, one can place themselves within the scene, within the Gospel text, and try to imagine yourself as being a part of that, and having the Lord actually speak to you in that moment. This makes the Word of God not a dead word, but one that's alive, that has something to offer you as you think about how the Lord is speaking to you at this moment.

Speaker 3:
[14:52] It's a very Jesuit way of praying, too, kind of imagining yourself in the scene, composition of place, what do I see, what do I feel, what do I hear, what do I smell. Right. I'm curious, what would you say to people who ask, well, how do I know what's going on inside of me is really coming from God or it's just a distraction or I'm sort of making it up in my mind. How do you sort of determine what's authentically coming up in your prayer when you're in those in those meditations?

Speaker 2:
[15:20] I think as a general rule, it would be, does it to tend to make me more concerned about myself, or does it draw me out and provide me with a motivation to really give them myself? Does it free me to love rather than just be preoccupied with my own issues and looking for ways in which I can solve a problem? You can't manipulate religion or organize your life around what your needs are and what your concerns are. But always to see that it's part of the call, the call that you have as a baptized person to bring Christ's presence into the world. So if that is not happening in some, at least a general way, then it's probably not the right way to allow that meditation to proceed.

Speaker 3:
[16:17] Yeah, that's a very helpful rule. One of my spiritual directors said, if it leads to an increase in faith and love and charity, you can be sure that's coming from God.

Speaker 2:
[16:26] And interior freedom.

Speaker 3:
[16:27] What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2:
[16:28] I mean, that you really put aside worries and preoccupations about yourself, that you do have the capacity to reach out to other people, even the sacrifice for them and not count the cost.

Speaker 3:
[16:45] Well, where do our personal needs fit in the life of prayer? Because, you know, at some point people want to talk to God about their needs or their struggles or their medical problems or financial problems. Where does that fit into the life of prayer, would you say?

Speaker 2:
[17:00] Well, I think that it's a matter of asking, yes, for assistance in great needs that are there. But also I think an understanding of how God is telling you that even though you are suffering at this moment, it's not meaningless, that you're not alone, that there's a consolation of the spirit, that whatever burden you're going to carry, you will have the strength to do that. And things will not necessarily work out on your timeline, but you receive the consolation that in fact you're going to be able to endure whatever suffering is there simply because the Lord has given you this presence of his life as one who accompanies you in that moment. So I think you always have to be open to that rather than turning to God for quick fixes. How does what you're praying for draw you closer and more intimate way with the Lord? Because that is really where the consolation comes.

Speaker 3:
[18:02] So it's more about being aware of God accompanying you, is that correct?

Speaker 2:
[18:06] Yeah, I think anytime we pray, one of the objectives has to be, how am I drawing closer to the Lord, knowing the Lord more, especially a Lord of mercy. And that consolation is something that goes beyond any kind of healing. I think that we had always every year that wonderful reading after Easter, this second Sunday, which Lord comes through the doors to be with the disciples. And really all he wants to do is say, I'm here for you. You know, I'm not going to solve all your problems. But you're not alone. And don't worry about your failures and your scars, because look at my hands and my side. I still bear the wounds that are there. But we can do this together.

Speaker 3:
[18:56] Now, it's a great insight. You know, I've always thought Jesus could have come back after the resurrection, fully healed of his wounds, right? He could have, but he comes back with his wounds. It's part of who he is, right? And as as and that's part of who we are too.

Speaker 2:
[19:09] Well, yeah. And, you know, I said, if I were in charge of the resurrection, I might have done it a little differently. I would have showed up at Pilot Sports or Herod's House and made it the biggest. I told you so in the history of the world. But I think that's probably too much Hollywood for Jesus.

Speaker 3:
[19:25] Well, that's pretty funny. I also think it's notable that, you know, there is no hint of revenge when he comes back. You know, when he sees in John 21, he sees St. Peter. He doesn't say, now I'm going to, you know, take you to task for denying knowing me or, you know, the disciples on the road to Emmaus. I'm going to take you to task for, you know, leaving Jerusalem. It's all peace, you know, which I think is such a great insight for us today that Jesus is not about revenge or as you said, or I told you so, right?

Speaker 2:
[19:54] Right. Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[19:57] We're going to pause for a short break, but we will be right back.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 2:
[20:12] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 5:
[20:14] Or relaxing sanctuaries like the Conrad and Tulum?

Speaker 4:
[20:17] Hilton Honors, baby.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 7:
[20:30] Hilton for the stay. Book your spring break now.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 3:
[21:10] Your Eminence, earlier, you brought up something that we haven't talked about on the spiritual life, which is the liturgy of the hours or the bravery. Can you define what that is and then talk about how it fits into your spiritual life?

Speaker 2:
[21:22] Well, I think the two words are very important, liturgy and hours. What it does is it allows us to bring our worship and our connection with God beyond the curtain between time and eternity into our life in the hours that we live, that we have a sense that there's a lot more going on in our life than what we see in this world. And so we connect with the eternal of what God is doing by reciting the Psalms that praise God, which we believe is what the heavenly hosts do. We do that with the Holy Holy at Mass. We connect with those who are beyond time and to eternity and see that our lives are part of a much bigger story. And so it's good for us to do that in many ways, to develop a detachment from this world that does not allow us to think that just the things that we have in this world are the sum total of who we are and what we're about. And so we pray these Psalms, we sing the hymns of praise of God like the angels do. And in many ways, sanctifying our time. But for me, what it does is it makes me pause throughout the day to realize no matter what worries I have, anxieties or problems, that's not the full picture. There's something else going on that God is working. And that really does give you an internal freedom about dealing with the issues in life and making you maybe a little humbler and thinking that you're gonna solve all the problems yourself.

Speaker 3:
[23:06] You know, you brought up sanctifying the day. That's a beautiful way of looking at the Liturgy of the Hours. Can you talk about, I know it's a huge topic, but the meaning of the Mass and the Eucharist for you in your daily life?

Speaker 2:
[23:19] Well, I think what's important about, and I tell people this all the time, when they think about their participation in the Mass, it is an opportunity for them to think bigger and to have an experience bigger about their life. There's a line that we say somewhat in passing that we don't give too much notice to. We invite people, pray, my brothers and sisters, that my sacrifice and yours will be acceptable to God the Father Almighty. So what that really is telling people is that the sacrifices that they make, the sufferings that they have in their life are really part of the bigger project of Jesus redeeming the world, of saving the world. That we get to be a part of that. So my sense of excitement about the Eucharist is drawing people into the Eucharist to let them see that their lives are a part of God's plan for bringing the salvation of the world. There's a wonderful book by the name of Ian Matthew called The Impact of God in which he has a line in there that we have to come to an understanding, not that God is an important factor in our life, but that we are an important factor in God's life. And the Eucharist gives us that chance. It draws us into a much bigger picture of who we are rather than material gain or reputation or ways in which we have power over other people. No, our lives mean a lot more than that.

Speaker 3:
[24:50] How does it draw people in, would you say? How does the Eucharist draw people into a larger reality?

Speaker 2:
[24:56] Well, I think people instinctively understand that. That's why they come into the Church, why the liturgy should be beautiful and not mundane or in any way just casual. There has to be that sense of coming into an environment, a beautiful Church with music that lifts their spirits, where the liturgy is prayed in a very noble way, noble simplicity as we see in the Roman rite, that lets them know that they're stepping into a new dimension of what human life is all about. Not leaving the world, but realizing that their experience of the world is incomplete without taking into consideration that they're all also a part of what God is doing.

Speaker 3:
[25:44] I've never heard that noble simplicity before. It reminds me of something I learned in theology, which they talked about high Church with a heart, right? This sort of the beauty. And I think we tend to underestimate the role of beauty in people's lives. Do you? Yeah, it's kind of a curious question. I've been to liturgies around coffee tables in East Africa and huts, literally, outside. And I've been in liturgies at St. Peter's Basilica and in your cathedral, the Holy Name. And is there something other than the Eucharist that unites all of those experiences? Because in one, it's not at least physically beautiful, and in the other, it's sort of very awe-inspiring. What's the connection other than, say, the Eucharist itself?

Speaker 2:
[26:31] Well, I think it's the fact that people's lives are changed. That's the beauty. Remember, we have three sacraments of initiation, and the only repeatable one is the Eucharist, which involves ongoing conversion and deepening into what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. And so, every time that we come to the Eucharist, we should leave a little more changed. And I think that's the beauty of the liturgy, that has a capacity and the power to bring about substantial change in our lives so that we begin to take up the mission of Jesus in a fresh way every time, simply because we have been enriched by that experience and we've been changed. I think that's a common denominator.

Speaker 3:
[27:18] I want to focus a little bit on your work as a bishop and talk about that spirituality. You're, of course, the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago. What's a normal day for you and where do you find God in that day?

Speaker 2:
[27:32] Well, I'm up fairly early most days unless there's some reason that I needed to sleep in because of a late night. And so that's the quiet time that I need for prayer and meditation. I do a lot of my writing in the morning simply because I find it's a fresh time for me. I live in a house here at the rectory with 10 others or 11. With nine others, we're 10 in the house. And so we come in and out for breakfast. I have things at the office or in a parish or every day is different. If I'm here, I have lunch with the guys and then continue on in the afternoon. But every day is different and from seeing people to visiting parishes to writing. And I also have to spend a good deal of time on work that I've been given as a Cardinal in terms of the assignments related to work in the Vatican. I'm on a number of boards or Dicasteries that require me to weigh in on topics. And so that takes a good amount of my time as well. Then I collaborate with my seven auxiliaries. I have a Vicar General who's a Bishop and then we have six regional Bishops. And then of course my administrative staff, the COO of the Diocese is a very capable woman. And so there are meetings on matters of administration that I have to attend to as well. But every day is different.

Speaker 3:
[29:08] Was it a difficult shift spiritually to move from Priest to Bishop to Archbishop? Was there a sense of leaving something behind or gaining something in terms of the new ministries?

Speaker 2:
[29:18] Well, I was a Bishop at a fairly young age, a Diocesan Bishop when I was 49. I went to Rapid City. And I didn't find that shift to be too much because it's a small diocese, 28,000 Catholics, 30 Priests. So it was really manageable for me and God was good. I was there for 12 years. The people taught me a lot about being a Bishop. And I learned I think some really helpful ways of ministering at that level. And then I went to Spokane. I was there for four years at a time when they had emerged from a bankruptcy that created a lot of problems. But we tried to deal with them and move forward. Again, I found the help of the Priests and the laypeople to get through I've never taken on these tasks myself. I still tell people kiddingly maybe, but that I do the same two things every day. I get up in the morning and I find out what I'm supposed to do, and then I find somebody to do it.

Speaker 3:
[30:19] Very efficient.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] That's not too far from the truth either because I have very competent people here. And that sense of solidarity and taking up a common task and empowering people to make decisions can be also be very internally liberating for me. And I find that a very healthy way of doing administration.

Speaker 3:
[30:41] Now you mentioned your work at the Vatican with the various Dicasteries. You were a great friend to Pope Francis and now as a fellow Chicagoan, a friend of Pope Leo. I'd like to talk about Pope Leo a little bit. Did you know him much before the Conclave? And what's it been like to work with him since his election?

Speaker 2:
[30:58] Well, you know, he was at my installation here in Chicago in 2014. There's a wonderful picture of me and him. I'm presiding and he's in the background. He was just named a bishop, wasn't ordained yet and he was so nice to come and he attended my installation. So I knew him from that because he was also at one time very much involved in the leadership of the Augustinians who have a huge presence here in the Archdiocese. And then I got to know him even more about 10 years ago when he became a member of the Dicastery for Bishops, which I've been on since 2015. And then he became the prefect in the last couple of years. And again, got to know him. He had been here at Holy Name Cathedral a couple of times to visit with me. We had lunch here. And the staff and the sisters and all are just aglow with the fact that they got to meet him before he was selected successor Peter. So yes, I would say that we have a very good history together of working on important projects and had a great devotion to Pope Francis.

Speaker 3:
[32:11] What's he like as a person?

Speaker 2:
[32:13] What you see is what you get. He's very normal. The Italians call him Il Papa Calmo, the calm Pope, because he takes his time. He's not rushed. He's strategic in his thinking, but he listens. He's an individual who's curious about other people. I think that's, he's not just tolerant in terms of listening to people. He's curious. And I think that's a great quality. In fact, I think at the heart of synodality, that we really have to be interested in, that other people can contribute to the way that we might view the world. And he has that capacity.

Speaker 3:
[32:56] That's a great word for him, curious. And that is different than just tolerant or listening. He's actively curious. That's my limited experience of him. What was it like to be in the conclave without breaking confidences? What was that process like for you spiritually?

Speaker 2:
[33:11] Well, you know, I'm glad you used the word spiritually because, you know, we dressed in liturgical garb when we went in there. It wasn't just a clinical activity of electing somebody. We entered a worship space, a sacred space, and that's why we had choir robes on, because it really was liturgy. It was prayerful. It was spiritual. We all felt that solemnity there. An interesting thing, though, at one point after he was elected and between the time he was elected and the time that his name was announced by Cardinal Berthi, it was about 90 minutes. And it dawned on me that the 133 of us in that room were the only people in the entire world who knew something that everybody else wanted to know. That's a very strange feeling.

Speaker 3:
[34:02] I want to shift a little bit. Lately, you've been very strong in your defense of migrants and refugees, which I completely agree with you and I agree with your stance. I'm wondering if you get any pushback on being too quote unquote political and how do you know when to speak up and what guides you in speaking on those kinds of political matters? What would you say?

Speaker 2:
[34:23] Well, I don't think they're solely political. I think they had to do with human dignity and which is at the core of the gospel, for one. My metric for being public about various issues is simply this. What I'm about to say, is it true? I think we have to make sure that we're clear about that. Does it have to be said? And the third question is, do I have to say it? And so when I use that line of questioning and filtering, then I usually get it right. And I think that in speaking to people, I'm not out to draw attention to myself or to rile people up from one political spectrum or another. But I think that some things have to be said. And if it's not being said, and I have the words to do it, then I believe that it's important. For instance, I have been very vocal about the rights of immigrants, but also about the war that's going on and the gamification of the war that we see in the videos that have been issued by the administration, to the point where a war now becomes entertainment. There's something fundamentally wrong with that, and gross, and disgusting, because we're talking about real people being killed. And then when you have the gamification of that, where people can bet on outcomes, how many casualties are going to be there, and if financial gain is a result of that gaming, we really have demeaned ourselves as a nation. And I think that had to be called out.

Speaker 3:
[36:14] And I'm glad you did. And you're right, these are not strictly political questions. These are gospel questions that are about human dignity.

Speaker 2:
[36:21] That's right. That's right. And also, I do it as a patriot. I wrote a piece in the Washington Post about this, and recalled what happened during the Civil War, where people from Washington came out with their picnic baskets and their opera glasses to view what they thought was going to be a wonderful spectacle of the Battle of Bull Run, only to flee the site because the Confederates launched a counterattack where thousands of people were killed and injured. And it wasn't so entertaining. And I think that if we try to do that again, we in many ways are marring the dignity of what it means to be an American.

Speaker 3:
[37:08] Let me ask you a question. It's a little delicate. And I'm not asking you to break any confidences, but I'm always kind of curious. When you speak out and when you take stands and when you write those things. And I thought that article about the gamification of the war was excellent. How much coordination is there with your brother Bishops, the USCCB, Secretary of State of the Vatican, Pope Leo? I'm always curious in terms of working with other groups, how much you feel that you need to sort of involve people, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[37:41] Well, I do talk to other Bishops just to get an idea. You know, if they have comments on what I'm going to say, I don't feel that I need to get the approval of the Secretary of State or the USCCB. If it's true what I'm saying. But some of the language that I use does come from the things that the Holy Father has been saying. He gave us, I think, as Bishops in this country, important language to talk about immigration, to talk about the war, and I benefited from that. So rather than running things by them or consulting, I try to see what language they're using so that I'm in line with the message that's there, and maybe to offer a broader understanding of it, given the context that we have in this country.

Speaker 3:
[38:29] So, Your Eminence, we're going to move to the audience question, and it is from Joan. And the question from Joan is, why is the sacrament of confession important to a person's spiritual life? And I'll answer that first, and then give you a chance to answer it. Now, I want to speak as someone who hears confessions, but also goes to confession quite a bit. You know, I think one of the great insights I heard about confession was from Peter Fink, who is a liturgical theologian who taught me the rites and confession. And he said that confession is not about how bad you are, but how good God is. And so the first thing is to be reminded of God's love and God's mercy for you. The second thing is to know that, you know, we all sin, and that, you know, you are able to get forgiveness, which enables you to move on. And I think it's also good for our humility, which really for me is kind of the gateway to the spiritual life, because if you never go to confession, in addition to, you know, all sorts of other, you know, sort of theological and spiritual problems, you're not being reminded that you are a human being who needs forgiveness and who makes mistakes from time to time. And so I think it's, I think it's a humbling thing. And I think it's just good to be reminded of that need for humility. So, Your Eminence, how would you answer that question? Why is the Sacrament of Confession important to a person's spiritual life?

Speaker 2:
[39:47] Well, Elisha, as part of what it means to be a Christian, a Christian is involved in ongoing conversion. You know, we take of the path of ongoing conversion. And also that we understand that there's a difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is about admitting that we've done something wrong. Shame, however, is not that we have done something bad, but that we're bad. What the Sacrament of Confession does is it liberates us from not only with the forgiveness of the guilt that we have, but also frees us from thinking that we are bad, unredeemable, and that we have an experience of God letting us know that we're loved, where there are more than the worst thing that we've done. People live locked in in the toxic experience of shame, because they've done something wrong and they have equated the bad thing they did with who they are. I think that the Sacrament of Reconciliation frees us from that cul-de-sac.

Speaker 3:
[40:57] Well, thanks so much for that answer. That's very pastoral, as I would expect. Your Eminence, I want to thank you for a couple of things. First of all, thank you for your friendship to me and your support behind the scenes. Thank you for all the wonderful work you do for the people of God, not only in Chicago and in the United States, but worldwide, and your service to the Church. And thanks for sharing so much of your own spiritual life with us today on The Spiritual Life. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:
[41:21] Well, it's an honor to be with you and the best to everyone in America. You offer a wonderful service to the life of the Church, and we're better off because of your ministry.

Speaker 3:
[41:39] Isn't he great? He's so accessible, isn't he?

Speaker 4:
[41:41] He's very accessible. He's clear spoken, and he's really kind. I just, you know, just in interacting with him in the making of this episode, I really appreciated his kindness.

Speaker 3:
[41:52] He's a very kind person. He's been very kind to me personally. He was a lot of fun at the Synod, and I just think he's one of my favorite Catholic leaders.

Speaker 4:
[42:01] And, you know, one of those kindnesses that he extended was, I heard in the audience question and answer on the Sacrament of Confession and the importance of it in our spiritual lives. He really distinguished between the guilt that we might feel over making a mistake or doing something wrong and shame, which so many people are paralyzed by and the Sacrament of Confession can free and liberate us from.

Speaker 3:
[42:26] Yeah, it's a good distinction to make. Shame says, I'm a bad person. Guilt says, I did a bad thing. I've written about confession in an article for America Media and the link is in the show notes. Also, I'd like to let you know that I have a new book out, a memoir called Work in Progress. It's the story of finding work through a variety of crazy summer jobs like busboy, dishwasher, caddy, factory worker and many more and eventually finding God. Basically it's a light hearted spiritual memoir about growing up in the 60s, 70s and 80s and is available in print, ebook and audio anywhere books are sold. I really hope you enjoy Work in Progress. The Spiritual Life with Father James Martin is produced by Maggie Van Dorn, Sebastian Gomes and myself. Production assistance from Kevin Christopher Robles and Will Gualtieri. Adam Buckmuller engineered the show. The theme score is courtesy of Teddy Abrams and Nate Farrington. You can follow me across social media at James Martin SJ. Thanks so much and God bless you.

Speaker 8:
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Speaker 7:
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