transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 1:
[01:52] Hello and welcome to the award-winning BBC Gardeners' World Magazine Podcast, brought to you by the team here at the magazine. Join us as we chat all things gardening with the nation's favorite experts. Whether you're starting from scratch or rethinking the gardening space you already have, what garden design principles can help you on your way to creating the garden you've always wanted? And what should you avoid? Hello, I'm Claire Venice from the magazine. With a knack for creating outdoor spaces that are not only stunning but livable, award-winning garden designer Pollyanna Wilkinson is known for designing beautifully layered contemporary gardens that balance structure and softness. We'll discuss the do's and don'ts of garden design from mistakes people make time and time again to the fundamentals of garden design that can really make a garden work. Hello, Polly, lovely to have you on the podcast again.

Speaker 5:
[02:46] Hello, lovely to be back.

Speaker 1:
[02:47] Well, it's about a year since we had you talking about garden design and that was such a wonderful podcast. We thought we'd bring you back to you. Really love you to talk to you again. So spring, springtime, is this a good time of year to look at designing your garden or taking on big projects?

Speaker 5:
[03:04] Well, Claire, that is a tricky one to answer. Because on the one hand, yes. So if you want to do things to do with planting, it's a brilliant time because April is the time where you can lift and divide plants in your garden and move them around. The soil is warming, but the plants is really only starting to grow. So it's a great time to plant, and it's a great time to move plants. What is not a great time to do is suddenly think, right, I want to have a garden by summer. That's one of the biggest mistakes we see as garden designers, is forgetting to care about your garden until the weather improves. By the time the weather improves, the landscapers are fully booked and the designers are fully booked. Unless you have a very small space and it only needs changes to the planting, it's too late to have a garden for summer. I say that very much in terms of, I'm talking if you were gutting it and redoing, I'm waving and redoing, hardscape as well, which requires skilled landscapers to do it. They're busy. So I feel like that might be bad news.

Speaker 1:
[04:10] It's the thing, isn't it? When the weather turns nice, all of a sudden we're out there. We're just so happy to be out in the garden again. I want to do things, want to create things, I want to have the best garden we can have this year. It's so tricky. So what are the little things that we can do that can help improve a space?

Speaker 5:
[04:26] I mean, there's so much that you can do now. So I hope I didn't sound too negative, because it's just a case of big build work that maybe takes a bit of time. I'm really eager to stress that these things shouldn't be rushed either. If you're going to be spending money and time on your garden in terms of build, it's worth planning it and doing it properly. But there's loads you can do yourself in the garden to improve it now, because as I said, it's just such a brilliant time to plant. So in terms of, I don't know, something that I'm always encouraging is to sacrifice a bit of lawn and add more planting. So classic mistake is to have really narrow borders around the edge and the mantra of, we must have a big lawn. But if you're willing to wrestle away, I don't know, even another meter of space to add it to an existing planting border, which actually I'm doing as we speak, I've just robbed a meter of my children's football pitch to add more plants. I'm hoping they don't notice.

Speaker 1:
[05:21] I was going to say, are they aware?

Speaker 5:
[05:23] They're aware, but they're consenting. But it's a case of that's such a quick win to make your garden look better. It's to just add some more borders. So little tricks could be making the borders that you have bigger, because the larger they are, the more layers of plants you can have. And one of the best ways to make your borders and your garden look more interesting is depth of plants. It's not just having that one row, but actually having a larger border, say something which is over a meter and a half, dare I say, let's wave at two meters. That's going to give you the opportunity to have layers of plants in, short ones at the front or taller ones at the back. And also the opportunity therefore to have more seasonal interests. So really quick one now would be just, where can you add more borders in your garden? And what I love is such a simple trick, is if you've got paving, which often we do, you come out of the house onto some paving, and then you're rolling onto lawn, why not bring in a plant border between your paving and your lawn? And just give yourself, you know, obviously you need to give yourself a gap through, but bring plants up to that paving. It's sort of my number one tip. Think of it a bit like a photo frame of just making sure that you've always got a frame around the edge between your lawn and your paving.

Speaker 1:
[06:38] Nice idea. Then you can walk straight out into your beautiful floral displays, can't you?

Speaker 5:
[06:43] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[06:43] If you take that bit of lawn out and you're suddenly faced with blank soil, how do you begin to create that lovely layered look without it becoming too much of a daunting prospect? Are there quick wins with that and things you shouldn't do?

Speaker 5:
[07:01] Yeah. One of the number one principles we do when we're planting is make sure that you repeat plants around the space. I think there's something to be said for taking a bit of a survey of what you've got already. The trick would be not to go, I'm just going to add loads of new different plants that I don't have yet, but actually to think what could I use that I already have and repeat. It might be, it's April, so it's the perfect time to be digging up any of your perennials or grasses dividing them and using them. So you don't even need to spend any money here, you can use your garden as your plant shop, and that will give cohesion. I think one of the big mistakes is, we're all including myself, guilty of going to the garden center and falling in love with something and buying one of them and wanting to bring it home. And I would just urge you to, if you can, buy more than that, or buy one, and know you're going to divide it in future. But it's a case of, look around, what have you got? Have you got enough structure? So are there evergreens in your garden? They needn't be large, but we need evergreens for winter structure, because we've just come through it now, but we've all been looking at not very much in the garden through winter, and it's just your evergreens are what's going to carry you through. So make sure that you've got something in there for winter interest, because let's face it, that's the thing we tend to all skip, because it's less exciting. So almost plan your winter interest before you plan the summer, because the summer is easy. So look, is it going to be an evergreen for winter? Or are you going to have some grasses, which also do a really great job for winter as well? Plan them first, then fill in the gaps with the fun bits for May, June, July, August. If you can, try and use things you already got, or if you wanted to try something new, then can you put something new in there, but then also put whatever that newness is elsewhere in the garden so it repeats? Because that repeat is really the trick to making sure that it all makes sense, rather than feeling like a random jumble of different plants.

Speaker 1:
[08:57] I like the idea of the fun bits being the lovely colorful bits that we have in the summer. Add the fun bits to your border.

Speaker 5:
[09:04] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[09:05] What are the mistakes that you see time and time again? I know most of us aren't able to redesign our space from scratch. So if we want to make slight differences, what are things we shouldn't be doing?

Speaker 5:
[09:15] I mean, they're so simple. It's things like planting in ones is a mistake. My caveat for that is, if it's a shrub or something ornamental in its own right, it can sit on its own, although I'd still want it ideally repeated around the space. But it's small things. Let's take an example of something like a salvia, like the very popular, you see it at Chelsea Flower Show all the time, the very upright salvia is like a salvia caradona. So I'm not talking about those lovely big shrubby ones, but the ones which are sort of stay to about 30 centimeters wide. A mistake would be to just plant one of them on its own, because that has no heft whatsoever, and it's just going to look like you've bought one at the garden center and put it in. It needs more heft. If anything, a general rule I try and live by when we're doing plantings, we sort of want everything to be waving at about a meter, eventually. And so something like a salvia is never really going to get wider than about 30 centimeters. So you need to plant somewhere between three and five of them together to get it to a bigger mass. And you can mix and match that. It might be you plant three of one somewhere and then five of one somewhere else, and it might even be seven if you're lucky enough to have enough space and funds. But that heft is what's so important. And one of the biggest mistakes I see is just lots of ones. So one salvia, one nepeta, one alchemical, and on it goes. And it just looks very dotty. And actually what you need is far fewer selection of plants used in far greater massing. And I think the reason that that's such a big mistake is because going to the garden center and buying maybe 21 of the same plants, it looks insanity, wouldn't it? You just saw a trolley full of it. I mean, I would walk up to you and applaud you if I saw that in your trolley. And I have to stop myself when I see a cluster of ones. And I understand that lots of people are buying them knowing they'll divide them in future as well, because cost adds up. But for me, that's it. The big mistake is too many plants not used in big enough groups. And that's true even in the smallest gardens, even in a tiny London courtyard, we will still cluster plants together in minimums of three, in absolute minimums. And it just looks so much more intentional.

Speaker 1:
[11:35] I'm going to be having a nose though in people's shopping drives.

Speaker 5:
[11:38] It's one of my favourite things to do. I have to mind my own business.

Speaker 6:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 8:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 6:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 4:
[12:49] I participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

Speaker 8:
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Speaker 1:
[13:27] This time of year, when we're all excited about planting and proving our spaces, we're all raring to go and want to plant something wonderful and exciting, but to pull ourselves back, I suppose, and be considerate about the space that we've got and what's going to work in there.

Speaker 5:
[13:39] Yeah, I never want to rob people of the joy because this is the thing, isn't it? Gardening is just such a joy. If you love gardening, then you're probably a magpie for plants like all the rest of us. So it's not about that. To be honest, you could buy your one if you want to. As I said, April is the time to divide. If last year you bought loads of different plants, this is the year to dig them up and whack a spade through them or a bread knife a few times, and you're going to triple, quadruple your plants per plant. So it's a really easy fix if you've done that and it's not going to cost you anything.

Speaker 1:
[14:11] What are the good plants to do that with then to divide and increase that space in your garden?

Speaker 5:
[14:16] Well, grasses are a really easy one. So deciduous grasses, so things like Hacanoclerus or Miscanthus or Calamagrostis, those are super easy. And then, I mean, the old classics, loads of the cottage garden classics we all know and love. So Catmint or Nepeta divides so well. And you can take that one down really quite small and that will multiply. Alcamilla mollus, all of the hardy geraniums as well. They behave really well when divided. So it's a lot of the really common plants that you'll find in a garden that can be divided.

Speaker 1:
[14:50] Yes, nice and easy wins, aren't they? With regards to layout choices, like paths and seating and lawn shapes even, is that something we tend to get wrong? Are there particular design tips that you can give us that can help us with those spaces?

Speaker 5:
[15:05] One thing that we do in the studio, which is I don't think unique to us at all, is we like to do a very intentional lawn. So I think a mistake can just be lawn everywhere, to sort of fill the gaps with lawn. And what we will try and do is choose an actual shape. And that shape could be an oval, a circle, a rectangle. It can even be wiggly. That's fine. But an intentional shape that doesn't have sort of strange dog legs or sort of weird protrusions off it. It instantly looks like you've chosen to do a lawn on purpose, as opposed to the lawn is just filling anywhere awkward that you're not sure what to do with. And this is true even in a big country garden. It's still the same. It's just obviously on a much bigger scale. And what we do is fill the gaps with plants. And I know to me that's actually less maintenance than a lawn because actually mowing awkward shapes is a lot of work that was required weekly. Whereas planting them, particularly with sort of very low maintenance thing, such as grasses, which you cut once and then they just do their own thing, is far less maintenance. So I think that's a classic mistake is when you're thinking on we'll just sort of lawn the edges or we'll lawn those awkward bits, I would suggest fill them with plants instead. And it could all be a monoculture. It could all be the same plant, which can look really fabulous, like a sea of lavender, for example. To me, that's just as little maintenance and just as much more impact. So that's a classic one. And the pathways, I mean, the big mistake we desperately tried to get everyone from is pathways through the middle of a garden, because it just bisects it into, always put the pathway down the side. And if you're thinking about sides, think about sun and shade as well. So we'd normally put a pathway on the shady side so that you're not sacrificing sun because you could be planting in that sun. I prefer, I'm more excited about sun planting. But that's just a small classic. And I guess the other question we always ask when we're designing is, do you need a path? This is more for urban spaces or even suburban. Pathways are to lead you to something. So if it's a pathway to a shed, my question is often, do you need a pathway to that shed? Because you're creating a focal point there by walking down. If it's for maintenance and utility and it's wheelbarrow, of course, yes, you do. But if actually it's just a shed at the end of the garden, I'd rather we hid it and you didn't have a pathway going, look at this, look at this. So that's a big one as well as do you need it? If it's to your office, for example, lots of people have offices at the end of the garden now, of course, you need a path. You're going to walk across it in the winter. So it's a question of asking, do you need it?

Speaker 1:
[17:40] And also, I suppose, what materials can you use for a path that isn't going to create that big, this is a path structure?

Speaker 5:
[17:48] Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so we, I mean, we use a lot of gravel for pathways because I love gravel in a garden. It's inexpensive, it's permeable, it's soft and sort of gentle. And I think it's unimposing. I think it just brings the softness to its base. We use loads of it and we just use a metal edge to recess it. And you can use a compacted gravel so it doesn't feel like you're walking on Brighton Beach because the point isn't that it's an unpleasant journey. But equally, if you're a barefoot walker and you don't want to walk on gravel, then we might use things like clay pavers or bricks recessed in the ground. It doesn't have to be a solid paved pathway. Obviously, those are really useful depending on the space, but it can be softer than that and we'll usually surround them in planting as well. Again, one thing we do try to avoid is lawn up to a pathway. We'll try and do planting between it. So much like I said about having that planting between your paving and your lawn, I always want to have that interaction where it's whatever, when there's hardscape, there's always plants before you hit a lawn.

Speaker 1:
[18:48] Yes. Actually, because I imagine then trying to mow that little tiny bit in between, say a border and a path is just silly, isn't it?

Speaker 5:
[18:54] Exactly. It's thinking about the practicality of it all as well.

Speaker 1:
[18:56] When you first go to visit a garden site, to look at designing it, what do you commonly see that stands out to you? There's like, oh gosh, yeah, everyone has that in the garden, a lot of us have that in the garden and we need to stop that. Is there anything that jumps out at you?

Speaker 5:
[19:13] It's always sheds in inopportune places as unusually prime spots in the garden where you're like, why have you put it in the place you're looking at every day, or sometimes the sunniest place? We're like, that's where you're going to want to sit. Don't give it to storage. That's a massive one. I spend my life just being like, what is the shed for? If you're a massively keen gardener and it's full of garden tools, fine, but does it need to be here? Can we hide it? Can we screen it? Can we move it? That's a big one. It's not necessarily a mistake. I guess it's just short-term thinking is designing your garden around kids. As a mom of a now 10 and 11-year-old, man, they grow through things real quick. So the climbing frame seems like a great idea when they're five. By the time they're eight and they don't use, you're like, oh, we handed over quite a lot of the garden to that climbing frame. We didn't think through what it would be afterwards. So it's not that I don't ever want to design for kids because your kids are really young once and it's a total joy. It's just making sure that you don't hinge your entire space around it, only to realize that three years later, it was temporary and they prefer something else now. So it's thinking about, I guess it's future planning. By all means, put the climbing frame, the trampoline, whatever you want for the kids in, what will it be when they've grown out of it? Because hopefully, if it's a long-term home for you, it's just making sure you do it once and do it right.

Speaker 1:
[20:34] Yes, because actually you could, with a trampoline, put the sunken trampoline in the space, and then when the trampoline isn't required anymore, you could take that up and then that could potentially be a pond.

Speaker 5:
[20:43] 100 percent. There's loads of ways of doing it. One of the answers, which is doing myself out of a job, is you don't have to have a fully designed garden. If your garden is full of trampolines and climbing frames, maybe just let that be the case whilst they're using it, but give it a couple of years and they'll have moved through that phase. So there is a degree of thinking, do you want it to be absolutely really beautiful or do you need it just to be a playground for the time being as well? So I am eminently practical that if you've got the space, if you've got an enormous garden and we can fit it all in, great. If it's really tight and these are non-negotiable things for you, then there is a degree of maybe just let it be what it is for now, and then we'll grow through it when they're a little bit older. But things like trampolines actually, we've had a trampoline since my kids were like five and they're 11, they're still using it. And I think they'll still use it as teenagers too. So yeah, that actually does have some longevity to it. So when we're designing them for clients, we will often sink them in the ground because they just become so much less of an eyesore. We will surround them in planting as well. And usually the plan is, can we turn this into a pond or will it just be launed afterwards and it gets immersed in the garden? Or is it going to become a vegetable patch or any number of things? But we always think, what will it be? Because I really want to make sure that people aren't spending money twice.

Speaker 1:
[22:01] Yeah, absolutely. And trampolines aren't always for kids, are they? I don't know about you. Indeed.

Speaker 5:
[22:07] I mean, they are the scourge and bane of my life in terms of the above ground ones. I have one. We've hidden it behind my studio. They're not the prettiest thing to look at, but it's also about fun and everyone using the garden too.

Speaker 1:
[22:20] Yeah, they're finding that balance, isn't it? Now, you create gorgeous, contemporary, soft cottage garden style designs. Are there particular trends that you see in regards to garden design that come and go or are there classic ones that-

Speaker 5:
[22:34] I'm always really phobic of the word trend because I hate trends. Because again, as I said, I don't want people spending money on things, they're going to go off. So we try and keep it classic. There's always a bit of a movement in terms of tonality of materials, for example. So I think if I look back when I was training 10 years ago, pale gray was very popular. I've never warmed to gray myself. Excuse the pun, it's a bit chilly for me. I prefer buffs. But I think tonality changes. But really, it's more the things you find in a garden that I notice as trends. Right now, that's saunas. Every wish list, we've moved through. So I would say outdoor kitchens was the number one thing on wish lists. It still kind of is. I think cooking outdoors is fabulous in whatever guys you want to do it. But that was probably the most popular thing, say, two years ago. Now, it's saunas. Saunas are the thing. So if we're talking trends, it's that. It's the wellness movement. How can you use your garden for wellness? So hot tubs, cold plunges, saunas, outdoor showers, yoga decks, which is fun. So that is the trend, I would say. But other than that, in terms of materials or looks or aesthetics, less so, I'd say.

Speaker 1:
[23:48] And are there classic plants that always work, that we're always looking for those plants that give us longevity in the garden and color throughout the year or as much as we can possibly get? Are there particular plants that are good doers you would recommend?

Speaker 5:
[24:01] I mean, as you've said, as you very kindly said, I'll take your very kind description of my work. For me, we love cottage garden plants. And that sort of level of romance is something I don't think we will ever steer from. And so, you know, the things we've talked about in this, they're classics for a reason, but I'm certainly paired with that, you know, the geraniums, the catmints, the astrantias, but also roses. I will die on the Hill of Roses. And I know a lot of people don't like roses. And usually when they say they don't like them, they don't like the same thing that I don't like, which is that sort of very old fashioned, almost Victorian, rigid, overgrown, haven't been pruned very well roses, bare earth underneath them. It just looks like a bunch of old twigs, usually with some hideous bright orange or red rose. I mean, it leaves me cold. So there's roses in there's roses, but I think they are amazing doers. I think we are often asked for peonies in our schemes, often because they were in bridal bouquets and they were in mine, so I get it. But peonies flower for two weeks of the year. And I love them. And if you've got enough space, we will use them. But I would always use a really roughly romantic repeat flowering rose. They're like this likes of a David Austin Olivia, which is really roofly and romantic and lovely and very peony-adjacent instead, because that's going to give you months of bang for your buck over those two weeks. So we use them if there's space. It's just peonies are quite bulky. So for me, it's more about value. But then the other thing, which we use loads of and it's the bit which I think we probably need to spend more time persuading others of is grasses. So ask a designer, they're going to list grasses. They love a grass. We all love grasses. They're low maintenance. They look great in winter. But I think there's kind of much like the old-fashioned rose garden leaves people cold. I think the thought of kind of like pampas grass sort of swingers vibes, 1970s has really put people off certain grasses. And I don't think that's ever what we mean as designers when we're saying we love grasses. It's these sort of the low-key sort of Haccanocloa and Cessleria and the wafty romance that looks amazing in cottage garden schemes. So that's the other one, which I think people, it's hard to get excited about foliage plants, isn't it? But I wouldn't be without them.

Speaker 1:
[26:16] Well, they have so much interest throughout the year, don't they as well? The gorgeous kind of flow of them. And that continues right the way through. Isn't it funny how things have come back, but yeah, never the pampas grass again, I don't think.

Speaker 5:
[26:27] No, I don't think that one's going to make a return anytime soon.

Speaker 1:
[26:30] Is there one single important garden design tip or advice you could say to people who are looking at their gardens now this time of year, going, oh, just would like to make a change? Not a big one, haven't got a huge amount of money, but I just would like a little bit of a change. Is there something you could recommend that could make a little bit of a difference quickly and easily?

Speaker 5:
[26:51] I honestly think the biggest difference is sacrifice a bit more lawn and a bit more plants. I guess paired with that, I would say, look at your boundaries. So quite a big mistake is not thinking about your plants vertically. So in the ground, in borders, fine. But can you cover your fences with more climbers? Because to me, a really instant impact is just to get more green going upwards. A lot of us don't have hedges or don't have big gardens, and so you do have fences or walls. And my goodness, cover them in all sorts. I mean, there is a climber for every aspect. You could do roses. You could do jasmine. You could do honeysuckles. You can bring in loads of fragrance in your garden that way too. So a really quick tip if you really want to change things and make your garden feel more of an oasis and less of maybe a patch of land which is hemmed in by fence, cover them in climbers. Really simple trick. And then I guess the other thing I'm thinking a lot about at the moment is the sort of late summer gap. So one thing you could do, super simple, you can do it right now, is add in some things and they're making a comeback, or they've come completely back for me. Gladioli, a good corm to be planting now. Wax them in now, wax them in a couple of weeks later, wax them in a couple of weeks after that. So the trick is don't plant them all at once. I did that once and it was quite a spectacular show for about 10 days and then they all went all at once. So if you plant some successionally over the course of April, maybe even May, then your July and August is going to be absolutely cracking.

Speaker 1:
[28:22] Ooh, yeah, that's a lovely thing. I don't know if I've ever grown a gladiola. I'm looking at dahlias. Dahlias are also late summer flowering plants, aren't they?

Speaker 5:
[28:30] You can do your dahlias and you can plant them out in May. But I think there's gladiola again and there's gladiola. I'm not saying reach for the ones which are like big blousy, pink knickers where you can. But there's some very chic ones. I mean, I think it's been renamed now, but Murioli, gladiola Murioli, it's got a new name now. It's stunning, very chic. Or there's Byzantinus, which is the hot pink. They look more like fishing rods. Very chic, very demure. It's less kind of Dame Edna and more classier than that. And I think, trust me, they're coming back.

Speaker 1:
[29:02] Okay. Oh, well, thank you very much. We'll all be thinking of you as we're planting our gladiolas and enjoying them later in the summer. What are you looking forward to this summer in your garden?

Speaker 5:
[29:11] Oh, in my garden? Well, I'm expanding my cut flower beds. So I'm planting 30 different varieties of dailies as a sort of trial to see which ones I love for next year and just on going for client schemes. So for me, I'm really excited, particularly to grow loads of different cut flowers, loads of different dailies this year as my little sort of science experiment to see which ones I just can't wait to see all back in bloom.

Speaker 1:
[29:36] Oh, that's exciting and probably digging up a bit more lawn as well.

Speaker 5:
[29:40] Always.

Speaker 1:
[29:42] You and me both.

Speaker 5:
[29:43] Until there's no lawn left.

Speaker 1:
[29:47] Pollyanna, thank you very much. It's been lovely to talk to you again. Happy gardening this year.

Speaker 5:
[29:51] My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:
[29:53] Thanks for listening to the BBC Gardeners' World Magazine Podcast. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts and never miss an episode. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell others about it and rate us in your podcast provider app.