transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] After helping rescue girls out of sex trafficking in Asia, today's guest says that nothing is surprising about the Epstein scandal. He is a therapist that is helping me psychoanalyze why these politicians pursue power and pleasure and continue to get away with it. We will also get into therapy culture, the problems with it, why it typically doesn't work for Christian men, and what we can do about it. This episode is so encouraging. I know you're gonna love it. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Good Ranchers. Go to goodranchers.com. Use code Allie at checkout for a discount. That's goodranchers.com. Code Allie. Trey, thanks so much for taking the time to join me. If you could tell everyone who you are and what you do.

Speaker 2:
[00:51] Yeah, I'm Trey Tucker. I'm a mental health therapist. That's my job title, but we could go all into the in-depths of who somebody is and all that good stuff. But I just, I love helping people. I love seeing people step into the best versions of themselves that they can become. And I love helping them clear over the roadblocks that are trying to get in the way of that process.

Speaker 1:
[01:10] Yeah, well, I can't wait to talk to you about therapy culture, because how you approach it is different than the typical psychiatry and therapy of today. But first, I want to hone in on that one thing you said about yourself, is that you love to help people. Because you love to help people so much that you have traveled the world rescuing little girls out of sex trafficking. And we talk a lot about that kind of evil on this show. Obviously, people say they care about it, but not everyone has had a front row seat like you have. So can you just tell us first how you got into that kind of work?

Speaker 2:
[01:42] Yeah, even just thinking about it, as you talk about it, I can feel my heart rate getting up there just because they're still in anger. And I never even knew that human trafficking was a thing until I watched the movie Taken. And when I saw that movie, I thought, but first I thought that's got to be fiction. That can't be a real real life thing. And I realized it is. And it got me so angry and it stuck with me because I think that's a big sign of like, what are you wired for? What are the things that stick with you beyond just a couple of weeks of feeling angry about it? And it just wouldn't leave me. And I didn't, I wanted to do more than just donate money to it. I wanted to get in there and actually do something about it physically. So I started just reaching out to these organizations that do the rescue missions. And a lot of them ignored me. A lot of them said, hey, we already have full-time people. We don't really need you. But a few of them actually, they were receptive to the idea of this part-time guy that has no law enforcement experience, no military experience, that was just wanting to basically potentially give up his life to come in there and help. And I had to vet them because I didn't want to get double-crossed. They had to vet me just to make sure I wasn't some sort of double agent. But it worked out and we got 20 girls out all in all. We can talk about as much as you want into that.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] Yeah. Well, yeah, tell me what it was like to first get involved. What did those initial steps look like?

Speaker 2:
[02:58] It looked like me emailing so many organizations and calling them and just being annoying to them, quite honestly. Just I knew I wanted to do this and I wasn't going to get stopped. I knew somebody had to use me. So I just kept on trying and finally one seemed like a good fit. And they described the process of what that trip would entail. They said there will be roughly five of us on a team. Only one of the members of the team had any sort of military experience. And they said, we're going to train you up in physical fighting for a few days just in case you need to use that. And we're going to train you for a couple of days and how to talk to the girls in those bar settings where you're going to be. But after that, we're just throwing you right in there. So I thought, yeah, I'm in for that. I don't need a bunch of runway of training. I just want to dive in.

Speaker 1:
[03:43] So this organization, it exists, and there are other organizations that are like this that go into places like Thailand and other especially Asian countries. This happens all over the world in every country, but it's very prevalent in these Asian countries. And they find out the places where these young girls are getting prostituted. And they find a way to infiltrate those spaces with their trained team and basically just rescue those girls and take them away. So how did they first find out where these trafficking rings are?

Speaker 2:
[04:17] Well, sadly, it's out in the open. And a lot of the law enforcement is so corrupt because they've been bought by the mafia that's running these rings that it's not hard to find. It's easy. And this particular organization focuses on the underage girls. But there are plenty of women of all ages who have been trafficked and are stuck in there. It's just that one particular organization isn't big enough and doesn't have the resources enough to get them all out by themselves. So it takes a bunch of niche organizations. But what happens is the people who work there full time, they're constantly going into all these bars. Imagine like walking into Hooters and the girls are scantily dressed. You're there to buy drinks and food. A lot of the tourists, they come from the US, Australia, England and China. So as long as you look like the typical tourists that are there basically for sex, then you're not going to draw any attention to yourself. But we came in already having the intel that the full time guys had gathered. So when they scan for all these bars, they're looking for girls that appear to be underage. They've done some investigation work to say, yeah, these are the areas we want to target. And then our job is to go in there and do raids and basically what they call burn ourselves, where I was the face of the raid that we eventually did. So I couldn't, they told me you can't go back for a couple of years because my face ended up on all the security cameras as the guy that basically triggered the raid. And so we just did the basically drove the final hammer swing into the nail that the guys who lived there had set up for us to do.

Speaker 1:
[05:50] Well, tell us about the first raid.

Speaker 2:
[05:53] Yeah, so and I'll say this, there's two ways we got them out. One was the raid and then the other way is you just convince them. You don't have to play a role. You just sit there and you get to know them and you earn their trust. So that's what we spent the bulk of our time doing. And then we started prepping for the raid because we knew at the beginning of the trip that the raid was going to be at the end. So everything in between was either training or trying to just convince them to come with us. And one of the toughest things was sitting down face to face with one of the girls and you have to act like the jerks that are in there. You have to play that same role so that you fit in. Just the, and I have to choose my language carefully, but you really, you have to take on a persona that's not comfortable. And one of the toughest things was each of us had to get practice in asking a girl how much for sex. And like I couldn't even get it out of my mouth the first time. Cause it was just so wrong. But then you do it enough, just like anything. And it just, it became normal. And that's a whole concept that can be applied to a lot of things. But that was the biggest hurdle is that I was comfortable in the spaces. I was comfortable talking to whoever. But when it came down to really asking those awful questions, because in the back of my mind, I knew they hear that question all the time. I know what they end up having to go back in the rooms and do with these awful dudes.

Speaker 1:
[07:15] And you're asking the question to verify if that person is being prostituted. And then also to get access to where you need to go to then try to convince them to leave or rescue them.

Speaker 2:
[07:27] Exactly, exactly. Because again, once you blend in, then you're good. You have to spend money just like the guys, but you gotta talk the talk so that they'll first earn your trust as like, this guy's at least safe. But then once one side could establish, once we could establish that they were actually being prostituted, then we were just trying to show them like, hey, we're actually good dudes. Like over the course of a couple of nights, we would just hang out with them and make small talk. And at the end of those couple of nights, if we sensed that they might be willing to leave and just come with us, then we would do that as well. And we can go into as much of that process as you want as well.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[09:05] So the taking part, that's always scheduled in advance. You can't just do that with short notice. So the organization found a level of law enforcement that wasn't corrupted. And the raid itself was where we had a bar already identified with girls that were underage. And we knew on a certain date at the end of the trip, that was happening. We were taking down that bar. Everything else, everybody that we met in between was unscheduled. So the first one we rescued, that's, it was just friendly conversation. And at the end of the second night, I said, hey, me and a teammate were sitting there. I said, we're not typical guys here. Here's who we're actually representing. And we had to be really quiet about it because walking around were the pimps. And the pimps are actually women. They're called mamasans. And they're pretty scary just because I've seen how evil they treat the women. But as long as the customers are spending money, they'll treat you like gold. But I knew I had to speak quietly enough to where only me and the girl could hear it and then not draw attention. But usually they don't even agree to meet you to leave. But if you can get them to meet you, then you set a rendezvous spot the next day away from the bar. And they're scared to even leave the bar because they're threatened with their life. If you leave and don't come back, we'll hunt you down, we'll kill you, we'll kill your family. So just getting them to agree to meet you somewhere is a big hurdle. She agreed and then even if they say yes, about 20 percent of them don't ever show up at the actual meeting spot. So the next day, we're sitting there, my teammate and I are waiting at the spot, just thinking she's probably not going to show up. She's probably going to chicken out and lo and behold, she shows up. And we were overjoyed. So we went through the list like, this is what your life's going to look like next. There's going to be an orphanage, there's going to be job training centers for you to actually gain a skill.

Speaker 1:
[10:56] In the same country, so in Thailand?

Speaker 2:
[10:58] There are multiple centers, some in Thailand, some in other countries, and it just depends on the situation of where they need to be the safest. But they have, they need the job skills. Otherwise, if you free them and they don't have any skills, then they go back on their own. So thankfully, this girl said yes, and she ended up in the job training center in the orphanage. Not only did she get job training, but also she got the trauma care she needed.

Speaker 1:
[11:24] And do all of them stay in the same nation, in the same country, or are they able to leave?

Speaker 2:
[11:29] They can leave, for sure. Once they're with the organization, they're free to leave at any point, and if there's a location that they don't feel as comfortable in, then they'll transfer them to a different spot as well.

Speaker 1:
[11:41] What was the youngest girl that you encountered?

Speaker 2:
[11:43] 14.

Speaker 1:
[11:44] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[11:45] But we were told that there were even younger children that were harder to access, but the 14 and up, roughly, is right out in the open.

Speaker 1:
[11:54] And how did these girls end up in prostitution at such a young age?

Speaker 2:
[11:58] Some of them were kidnapped, and all of them, it happens at such a young age that they don't really remember their families. So they're either kidnapped or their families are taken advantage of, where these guys come to these villages that, sadly, they're uneducated, they're low resources, and these guys make all these promises, saying, hey, just give us your kids, and we're gonna put them to work in these factories, and we're gonna send the money back to you. And that sounds really good to these families. And so, unfortunately, they give their kids to these guys, and the kids never come back. So those are the stories that infuriate me, because you ask these girls, hey, how did you end up here? I don't know, this is the life I know.

Speaker 1:
[12:39] Yeah, how many raids have you gone on?

Speaker 2:
[12:41] We did one, and they do multiple in a year with the teams, but the raids are really hard to coordinate, because again, finding the law enforcement that's not corrupt is the biggest hurdle and takes the most time.

Speaker 1:
[12:53] Right. What do you wish people knew here, who care about trafficking but have never seen it up close like that, knew about how we can help or the reality of trafficking?

Speaker 2:
[13:04] Yeah, I talked to men about this a lot, and it really is a direct correlation between the pornography industry and the traffic industry because they're basically cousins. And you wouldn't think it, but if you trace it back to the organized crime rings, they're ultimately owned by the same folks. So if you're watching that stuff, you're feeding into that culture. And then just psychologically, the more you watch stuff on a screen, the more you're going to want to do it in real life. And a lot of these cities in that country, they're known as just sex tourism cities. And even if you don't ever go there, you're still feeding the view count and the revenue that goes into that machine. So we got to work, especially as guys, at being the highest character guys, because even if you're not doing it yourself as a guy, you got to stop other guys from letting their lust lead them in all these different directions. So if we can just build up ourselves as high character, high integrity, just cover your own territory, that can stop this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[14:07] What's the best thing that we can do as moms over here, to both protect our families against that culture of pornography, the predation of trafficking, but also to help those victims, both here and abroad?

Speaker 2:
[14:20] Yeah, always resources are in low supply in those organizations. And then awareness that leads to action. I'm not a big fan of just being aware of an issue, because I'm aware of a lot of issues, but find an issue, whether it's traffic or anything, but find something that actually urges you to action. And so could be donating. It could be a lot. There are a lot of organizations domestically that work with girls who have been trafficked and stayed in the US or maybe have been brought over to the US after being trafficked in other countries. And there are a lot of trauma healing centers here. There's a lot of outreach to prostitutes on the street. There's organizations that the women will walk up to these women on the streets with a bouquet of flowers and the card saying, hey, you're loved, you're seen. Here's a number to call if you want out of this. So there's all kinds of ways. And almost any even mid-sized city has outreach ministries like that.

Speaker 1:
[15:15] A lot of people don't realize that this is happening at strip clubs and all kinds of places, even like Hooters or places that might seem like, oh, that's just a restaurant where guys go, or actually those women are being forced, or they were at one point forced into that, and they actually do need help and freedom and to know that there's a better way. And so it might not necessarily mean going to Thailand. It might be for some people listening, but it also might just be something in your backyard. I'm sure you've been paying attention to everything that's been going on with the Epstein files. I think at one point, it just seemed too crazy to be real. Like how is it possible that all of some of the most powerful people in the United States, some people that we've looked to as moral exemplars, some of the most powerful people in the world, are apparently part of a pedophile trafficking ring. You have a different perspective on this though, than just someone who's been reading the news. Has there been anything in the reporting of the story that has surprised you?

Speaker 2:
[16:18] No, no. The stuff that I was hearing long ago that everybody dismissed, or most people dismissed as conspiracy theories, I said, no, that's probably real. I didn't have firsthand access to whatever was going on in that island, but I've seen the depravity enough to know, yeah, that can happen to any of us if you really let that go that far. So nothing surprised me in terms of what happened. It's still infuriating because the elite of the world, it's almost this blackmail that you have to willingly put yourself into to make them trust you and then be part of the power club. Like, okay, now that you stamped your ticket into this little island and this way of life, now we can trust you because they all have blackmail on each other.

Speaker 1:
[17:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[17:05] It's not even a political thing. It's just if you want power, this is the avenue to it.

Speaker 1:
[17:10] Yeah. I think most of us just don't even understand what it's like to be in that echelon of power. And I've watched all these documentaries on Jeffrey Epstein, listened to all kinds of interviews about people who have been reporting on him for a very long time. And it's hard for me to understand the hold that he had on so many people. And reading the emails back and forth, I mean typo-ridden emails inviting people to his island. It's hard for me to understand why he was so appealing to so many people, especially to men. And so obviously neither of us speaking from a personal perspective, but from your therapist's perspective, when you're looking at those power dynamics and just his personality, like what do you see?

Speaker 2:
[17:52] I see human nature is I'm wanting to be satisfied at all times. And so if I can get rich enough, then I think that'll satisfy me. And then if you look at pretty much every rich person in the world, that didn't do it for him.

Speaker 1:
[18:06] Solomon.

Speaker 2:
[18:07] Exactly. Solomon, yeah. And even at the end of his life, it was ultimately sex that undid him because he couldn't find the satisfaction. But yeah, once the money doesn't satisfy and he realized that, then you think, well, maybe power is going to satisfy. So I'm gonna chase that. And all these guys at that island, they had plenty of power and that didn't do it. And so then it becomes, well, how can I essentially like live forever, eternal life? And so I think that's where some of that twisted, like eating of the baby stuff probably came into. And Epstein himself, he was just the puppet or the pawn. Like he just had that magnetic charisma about him. He was the guy at the door, like the bouncer that could let you into this world that you thought was going to satisfy. So I don't think it was so much him and his magical ways. I think he was just the guy for the job at that particular point.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[20:44] They study this stuff, the psychology of it. There are people around them study this stuff. And it comes down to really two major categories, identity and psychological safety. And there's a bunch of subcategories that fall under each of those. But they've studied the fact that if you can take someone's beliefs, political or otherwise, and make it not just thoughts and potential solutions to issues, if you can transform them into, this is who you are. And if you believe this stuff, somebody who opposes what you believe, they're attacking who you are, and they're attacking your tribe. Then you're moving beyond somebody's logical brain, and you're moving into their subconscious. And when the subconscious takes over, it shuts down the prefrontal cortex, the logic brain. And when somebody, when that happens to somebody, they will fight and argue no matter what the actual facts are, because they're afraid. Their identity has been threatened. Their tribe, their belonging has been threatened. And so these politicians know how to take what should be just a nuanced issue, where the front of your brain is just thinking evaluatively. And they know how to go right to that subconscious, it puts you in a fight or flight mode instead. And we can go into the psychological safety part in a minute, but we can pause on identity if you want to.

Speaker 1:
[21:57] No, you can keep going. I'm interested in the psychological safety part of it.

Speaker 2:
[22:00] Yeah, so and this is, we all need safety. Like if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, safety is one of those basic needs. Like you can't actually move up his triangle without some safety. So safety is great. What happens is we, our need for safety ends up jumping some of the logical aspects. And so these folks know like any politician that really is charismatic, they know that people are anxious, they're uncertain, and if they can bring a level of strength and certainty, then people will look past their record. So if let's say I'm, if I'm a politician and my actual record is pretty bad, then I'm going to focus on saying things with enough certainty that people just forget about the record because they want to feel safe. So like research in a leadership shows that if you say something certain, with certainty, people perceive your confidence as a whole lot higher than it actually is. And if they think that you're competent, it doesn't matter what you've done in the past because they think, well, that guy's competent. He can get the job done in the future. Again, just that safety aspect. So whether it's me portraying strength and certainty or me portraying such a smile and a warmth and a friendliness that you just feel like, oh yeah, that guy's trustworthy. I won't worry about the past stuff. He just, I like him.

Speaker 1:
[23:23] Yeah, you know, that's interesting. If you assume that everyone needs a basic level of safety, then you could wonder, okay, but why does this group love this politician so much and this group love another politician? And I think about two totally different people, Barack Obama and Donald Trump. I could see how someone would listen to Barack Obama and feel safe because he's warm. You don't think that he is going to be aggressive in any way. He seems trustworthy. I could also see why someone would listen to Donald Trump and feel safe because I watched a 2016 primary debate the other day. And while all the other politicians are talking about how America is great and they're just going to keep on making it better, he comes in and lists all of the things that are making someone feel unsafe. Our borders are wide open. We still have ISIS that we're worried about. And then he gives him a solution and we're going to solve that. We're going to win. America is not only going to be great, but we're going to be secure. We're going to be safe. And so two different personalities, but now that you're talking to them, they're actually giving different kinds of people the same thing, and that is safety and security. So interesting.

Speaker 2:
[24:29] Yeah. And it really doesn't matter the party. All these politicians, I believe, they're just actors within the same play. They're just essentially the puppets that are arguing it out. And that's what they want the general population to do, is argue it out with each other and think that we're the enemies of the other side of the enemies. And these politicians are just the distraction for something bigger going on. So yes, whether it's the Trump angle or the Obama angle or whichever politician you're looking at, they're playing the same game and they're using that same psychological safety because they know they can get us to bypass the logic if we'll just cling to that need for certainty and for safety. So-

Speaker 1:
[25:06] But just to play devil's advocate, there are real things that make us unsafe.

Speaker 2:
[25:11] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[25:12] Like, and it's not always wrong or an intentional psychological play for a politician to say, this real thing here is a problem, it's killing people, and we're going to solve that. It can be a manipulation tactic, but it can also be a legitimate pointing out of a real problem, right?

Speaker 2:
[25:30] Oh yeah, absolutely. It's all a matter of the heart and what's your ultimate motive is. So if somebody is in it for their own power and ascent to fame and fortune, then they'll use it manipulatively. But if they're using to serve and actually serve a purpose greater than themselves, then yeah, point out the problems, point out the threats and look for salvation. And that's ultimately the story of life itself is the good versus evil. And we know we need a savior. And from a biblical standpoint, and even Hollywood picks up on it, we know we need solutions.

Speaker 1:
[26:00] Yeah, definitely. Tell me how you got interested in psychology.

Speaker 2:
[26:04] I think just from a wiring standpoint, I look back in my whole life and I realized people opened up to me when I wasn't really trying to get them to open up. And then I always have liked listening to people's stories much more than talking. And for whatever reason, middle school on, I was able to tell people like, hey, here's probably why you're doing this and maybe why this pattern is happening for you. And it was just kind of a natural thing. But I took the long road to actually get there. I went into the corporate world first and then into education. But it kept coming back to like, I see that the why people do what they do and what makes them tick. And why they climb the ladder and then obviously, often why they self-sabotage their way down, it just fascinated me. So eventually I thought, well, I need to get it through this thick skull that I gotta get a master's in psychology.

Speaker 1:
[26:54] Okay. And then you became a therapist. How many years has it been?

Speaker 2:
[26:57] It's been about 10, maybe 11.

Speaker 1:
[26:59] But your platform, you talk a lot about being like a different kind of therapist. When I think of typical therapy today, I think of at least for women, someone sitting down and telling them, you are so perfect, you are so awesome. All the people that make you feel bad in your life, they're wrong. And I don't know if that's how it is for men in therapy, but you're offering a different approach.

Speaker 2:
[27:22] Yeah. So one of the lines I love saying is like, when you come talk to me, it's therapy without the fluff. Because I'm not going to tell you how great you are. Like that'll be maybe a piece of it at some point, but that's not the destination. The destination is I'm getting you ready to live out your individual mission. So yes, I want you healed. I want you whole. I want you feeling good, but I want you all of that so that you can live out your mission and your purpose. And I think a lot of therapy, unfortunately, it's got people self-focused where it's all about my peace and my happiness and just having everything and get back to that certainty and safety thing. It's an empty promise because the people, let's take achievement for a second. A lot of people think if I can just achieve my way into happiness that'll satisfy. But even when you achieve the biggest goal in your life, research shows that the satisfaction only lasts for about three months. And after that three months, you're about to fill in the way you were filling before you achieved it. And unfortunately, therapy just, it makes us the center of the story so often. Not all therapy, but this whole therapy culture thing has got us too self-focused and it gets me fired up. So I take the coaching approach, the sports coaching approach that I came from. So I'm talking to people like, you're the baseball player I used to coach, and this is the way that we're going to talk as a coach and an athlete. Because yes, it's about your skills, but then it's about putting you in the game so that you can help the team win. And a lot of therapists, it's just empathy for the sake of empathy and compassion, just for the sake of compassion. And you can't grow without suffering. One of the things that I tell my clients is, I want you to suffer. And they'll look at me like, what? Like, yeah, I want you to suffer. I want you to struggle. I am not here to give you relief. I'm here to help you get stronger so that when you suffer, you can look back and realize, hey, look, look what I did. And for the believers, look what God helped me get through. Like I look at King David and you look at the Psalms, he's saying things like, God, thank you for the afflictions of my youth. And he's looking back at, God, you trained my hands and my fingers for war. When he was a boy in the fields protecting the flock, he was fighting off animals and going through all kinds of stuff. He had no idea what was going to come to him later in life. And he realized all that training in the field helped me win battles. And then when he won those battles, he came back from the battles bloodied, beaten up, sweating. It was awful and he won, but he always said, God gave me the victory. And it was also his physical exertion and the training that led up to those moments. So I want people to go through enough to realize that I've got the strength, I've got what it takes, and therefore I'm gonna use it for something bigger than me.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[31:57] Yeah, so I love what you're saying about the meds, first of all, because there's so many people that just want that immediate relief of medication. And I'm all for meds, but we gotta keep them in the right place in the batting order. So yeah, if somebody's coming in and they're depressed or they're anxious, anxiety is really the main thing that people come in to see. That's like far and away the issue that people come in with. I'm asking them things like, who's your support network? What's your source of happiness? Because everybody uses that word happiness, and I'll use that with them for a minute, but then I'll flip it to, okay, now let's talk about joy. Because typically somebody who's depressed, they think if I could just stack up enough happy moments, then I'll be constantly happy. And that's just not the way it works. I help them figure out, what is joy versus happiness? And once they see that it's really joy they're looking for, then we start talking about, all right, what's the source of that joy and that peace that we're actually looking for? Because typically, they're looking for the right things. They just need different language and they need some different approaches. And I just help them see like, what you're trying to get is good. It's just the road you're trying to take is gonna keep leading you astray. Because if you chase happiness, you guarantee you'll never get there.

Speaker 1:
[33:09] Yeah, if you could define anxiety, how would you define it?

Speaker 2:
[33:13] Fear of the future, fear of the unknown. It's like in people who have seen Inside Out 2, they bring in anxiety as a character. And it is the perfect portrayal of what's happening. It's a part inside of us that wants the future to work out for us. Like it has good intentions for us. It's trying to keep us safe and keep everything good. But what it's doing is it's putting us on alarm. So in the book I just wrote, I talk about anxiety as a caveman and the caveman's one job is to keep you alive. Like he doesn't care if anything else. He doesn't care if you're happy. He doesn't care about anything except for keeping you alive. And if he sees a threat, what he thinks might kill you, then he's gonna give you those uncomfortable sensations that we call anxiety. And what he's doing there is he's trying to get our attention to look at what does he think is a threat. So in today's society, we don't live in a very physically unsafe way. Like there's no wild animals trying to chase us and things like that, there used to be when we all lived outside. But the caveman still got his job. So he's looking at things like public speaking or uncomfortable conversations or a test at school. And he sees that those might be potential threats. So maybe those are gonna kill us. So let's get really anxious to get your attention so that you can either decide like, we gotta fight this threat or run away from it. So the caveman is trying to help, but he's just, he's kind of misinformed about what's really a threat. So we have to not fight the anxiety. That was one thing I messed up early as a therapist is I tried fighting it for myself and for others. And then I realized, no, what you resist persists. So let's lean into the anxiety and see what it's actually thinking is the threat because we could probably help the anxiety part realize like, oh yeah, this isn't actually gonna kill us. So we can just make a couple of adjustments internally and then handle the circumstance better.

Speaker 1:
[35:11] Can you walk us through that? Like if someone is anxious, say, I'm just anxious about my child, anxious about them going to school because what if something happens to them? What if something, you know, someone bullies them? It's one thing to be anxious about yourself. And when you have children, like all of your deepest fears are transferred onto them. And it's even more painful being anxious for them because you actually even have less control over their lives. And so if someone were to walk in and say, I'm just so anxious about this, how would you walk me through? I have no experience with anxiety of my children. So walk me through how you would talk someone through something like that.

Speaker 2:
[35:47] Yeah. First thing I would do is I'll tell them, hey, you're normal. Like, especially in that parenting example, like something happens to people when they, when they become parents, it's like a switch gets flipped in the brain that you didn't even know was in there. And all of a sudden, like you'll do anything for this, for this living being and the fear and the expectations and the hopes are just so magnified. So first I affirm it, like I'm like, you're normal, you're gonna be all right. There's nothing wrong. Like we're gonna, we're gonna adjust this. This is just part of the nervous system. I love it. I'm like, this is how you're wired on purpose. So starting there, then I say locate it. So find it in your body, cause you can't, you can't really talk your way out of some sort of what we would call a mental struggle. It's just, it's a whole nother soapbox, but talk therapy mostly doesn't work for men. Talk therapy was actually designed with a lot of research with women. And it works great with a lot of women, but for a lot of men, it just doesn't work. So I always try like, let's start with our body first, because that's really where the emotions live and the brain just makes sense of those emotions. So with anxiety, a lot of times somebody will say, well, I feel it in my chest. I feel like it's a butterfly in my chest. Not always that, but I say, all right, let's find it. And now let's put a name to it. Is it anxiety? Would you call it something else? Because research shows when you put a name on it, it actually makes that feeling decrease a little bit is because it makes it less of a threat. If it's this unknown monster that's swirling around in my head and my body, then it's scary. But if I can point at it and I can name it, it's like, oh, okay, well now I know what I'm aiming at. And then I ask them, all right, what truth would you like to replace it with? Because typically with anxiety, it's some sort of a lie that we think, it's like some outcome that would happen like, well, that'd be the end of the world. I just, I could never go on. Like, okay, we'll take that. But then if there was a truth that you would rather hang on to, what truth would that be? So once they've located it and named it and truth it, I kind of make truth a verb, we walk them through those steps because there's a lot of steps in between those three. But getting them to that point of like, all right, this is the truth I want to believe. Then that's where the actual therapeutic exercises come in of helping truth feel so deeply enough in their soul and their heart that the anxiety gets pushed out because of what's true.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] Yeah. You know, sometimes I just find myself, I'm like going through my day and I'm like, gosh, I've got this underlying sense of sadness or worry or dread and I don't even remember why I have it. And sometimes I just have to sit with it for a second and try to think back, okay, what first made me feel this way? Was it a video I saw on X? Was it something that really happened? Was it something that someone said to me? Is something about to happen tomorrow that I forgot about, that I'm worried about? And if I've never thought about really locating it in my body, but if I can locate it in my mind and then kind of talk through, okay, why is that making me worried? And what if that thing really did happen?

Speaker 2:
[38:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:51] And thinking about what, sometimes it's like, okay, actually that would really be terrible if something happened to my child. And I just say, okay, am I taking all of the steps that I can to be prudent in that regard? And then you just have to give it to the Lord eventually. Because some things are possible and you don't actually have power over them. They could happen and you just have to kind of surrender it. And the surrender part is hard. It's hard because you feel like you're losing control over the outcome.

Speaker 2:
[39:17] I'm so glad you brought this up. Okay, so I just discovered this because I geek out on like the meaning, the Hebrew meanings of words and the Greeks. And I don't speak either of those languages. But so the verse, be still and know that I'm God, that used to make me so angry. And I'm like, God, what do you mean be still? Like I got a real problem here. I'm in a storm. Why do you want me to just be still? And what I realized is that the word, and I believe it's Rafa in the Hebrew, it doesn't mean just don't move. It means release your grip. And that idea of surrender is, like first of all, you can't receive with closed fists. And it just means like trust that the idea that I thought that I had control, that was a lie anyway. I can't control anything about my heartbeat or almost anything in my own body. How am I going to control anything that happens out there? And I just, if I can start to realize like, yes, the circumstances might happen that are negative, or I might be in the middle of a battle right now. But if I can loosen my grip and stop white knuckling it, then I can realize that like, oh, God is God, not me. And that he's going to take care of me no matter what happens. That becomes the game changer. And that really is the solution to anxiety. It's not changing your circumstances or slapping meds on it.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[42:54] Absolutely. Yeah. When, when you really realize how little control you have, it can either be freeing if you let it be, or it can be so terrifying that you just start grabbing every little bit of control that you possibly can and the idea is like, okay, I can't control it. And so therefore, what am I going to do about what my body is telling me? So like your daughter in that situation, I would say her caveman got activated somehow.

Speaker 1:
[43:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:21] And so in her mind, whatever wasn't going right, it was a, it was a threat to the caveman and she might not have had words to actually put to it. But if you can help her in that moment to like, okay, if your fists could talk, what would those fists say? And if she could like somehow get into a little kind of playful conversation with her fists, like what do your fists want to do? What are they trying to get? You know, all the little questions. And then help her realize like, okay, things are probably tight in your chest and your stomach. So let's see if we can breathe some air into that area. Like I asked people to take, take the air they're breathing and put an imaginary color to it. And if they can send that imaginary color down to that spot that feels tense, it starts to loosen up inside. And then their literal and physical, excuse me, literal and metaphorical grip starts to release because God made our bodies in such a way that breathing, especially breathing into the stomach helps us actually calm down and re-center. And then once we actually see like, oh, the world's not ending, then my logic brain comes back online and I can say that, oh, okay, God is in control. But when my caveman's activated, my logic brain's been shut down, he's taken over from the subconscious and I'm just in fight or flight mode.

Speaker 1:
[44:35] I know you specialize in seeing men and this is a problem for both men and women, but especially in the patients that you see, do you see dopamine addiction, like just wanting the next bit of excitement to be a big problem?

Speaker 2:
[44:47] Oh yeah, oh yeah. Dopamine, especially on social media, it lasts for a second and a half.

Speaker 1:
[44:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:53] So that means the reason I'm scrolling so often to the next video is because this video brought me about a second and a half of pleasure and then it wore off. So subconsciously I'm like, all right, let's get the next one to get the next hit. And then the big underlying problem is we think dopamine is for pleasure, but it's really for pursuit.

Speaker 1:
[45:12] Yeah. Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2:
[45:13] So the dopamine gives us this euphoric feeling because we know God inspired us to achieve things and to take action and to push the darkness back. And so we need something to push us into action. Dopamine is one of those things. And so as we're pursuing a goal, then we need more fuel toward that goal. Now it needs to feel good in order to keep going. But a lot of times because of that whole, what's called a hedonic treadmill, we just get focused on the pleasure of it. Like, oh, that felt good. I want more of that. And we need to realize like, okay, it felt good for a reason. So now let me take that good feeling and channel it into something that's pursuit worthy and not about me. And again, it goes back to, am I just seeking my own good and my own pleasure? Or am I taking what's good in me and trying to spread it?

Speaker 1:
[46:00] Yeah. And by hedonic treadmill, you're talking about hedonism, just the pursuit of pleasure for the sake of pleasure. And it just, it never stops. And that's why I think there is some benefit to boredom and allowing our kids to be bored. My oldest, we're reading through The Little House on the Prairie Book Series. And it's just, it's a slow cadence of book, but also just a slow cadence of life. Like their routines day after day. And there's something so beautiful in how mundane and simple their lives were. And it challenges me as a mom. But it really, what I feel is, is that like allowing that boredom in your own life and in your kid's life, it takes a lot of self-control on your behalf. Because it's not like we never have any options. We always have an option to be entertained. But clearly there's something in our soul that doesn't want or shouldn't have that constant pursuit of pleasure. Because none of us feel good after we spend an hour scrolling on our phones. All of us feel bad, not just in the physical sense, but in like the soul level. It's like, oh, I just wasted an hour of the finite time that God has given me. Doing something really dumb. That was fruitless. It's like we know that on a deep level. It's interesting.

Speaker 2:
[47:14] Yeah, it's that short-term pleasure versus long-term satisfaction. And I always want to speak about this in a way that doesn't bring shame, because if we start beating ourselves up, we just stay stuck in the thing that we're trying to get out of. So yes, the tendency is to go after that short-term pleasure and to avoid the silence or avoid the boredom. And the research shows, because all truth is God's truth, and the research shows that the more we crowd out our brain with distractions and social media and anything that fills our brain with information, the more eventually it's like a balloon that just pops. Our brains aren't made to constantly take in information. It would be like if I go to the gym and I'm doing a bunch of curls and I never stop doing the curls, my biceps are not just going to not grow, but eventually they're going to break. So I do the curls, I work out, and then I let the muscle rest. And our brain is a muscle as well. It's got to get some rest. Like there was a time about three years ago where I was just going through it. I mean, anxiety, anger, sadness, depression, all that stuff. And I like, all right, I know I haven't been taking time for silence and to let my brain be bored and I need to do something drastic. So I went on an eight-hour walk.

Speaker 1:
[48:29] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[48:30] Yeah. So it was miserable. I wanted to quit so bad. And especially those first two hours, because all the thoughts that I had been stuffing. It was detoxing. Yeah. All the thoughts I had been stuffing came up like a volcano eruption. And like, I just want to quit so bad. But I knew if I just waited it out for those seven or eight hours, I would at least feel a little bit better. And thankfully, I did feel it wasn't perfect by any means. But I had cleared out the junk in my brain just from the boredom. The brain really does a lot of its own cleaning if you just give it the space to do it.

Speaker 1:
[49:02] Interesting. Okay. Eight-hour walk. That's one way to do it. Okay. With this last sponsor, I want to challenge you. I want to challenge you to really think, do you have $140 to give? If it meant a matter of life and death for a baby inside the womb, do you have $140 that you could be generous with? If you give $140 to Preborn, their network of pro-life clinics, that covers the cost of five life-saving ultrasounds. These free ultrasounds are given to pregnant women who maybe have been told by Planned Parenthood that they just have a clump of cells, that they can just evacuate at any time without any consequence. But when this mom sees the baby inside the womb, she sees that it's a life, that it's a human being that she is carrying. She is so much more likely to choose life. That's what we want. That's what pre-born is doing all across the country every day. Maybe it's not $140 that you can do right now. Maybe it's $28. That covers the cost of one life-saving ultrasound. This is how we can put our money where our heart is. This is how we can save lives and even invest in eternity. $28, $140. Go to preborn.com/allie to make your gift today. That's preborn.com/allie. Tell me a little more about your book, Tough Enough.

Speaker 2:
[50:28] Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about writing a book. And a publisher came to me saying, hey, we want you to write a book for men. And I thought, well, I haven't even thought about this, but if they want a book, I don't want to write just another book for men because there's hundreds and they're all great. A lot of them. I thought, all right, if they want a book, I'm going to write to an audience that has been forgotten. And men in their 20s have been cast aside. And even worse, a lot of people have told them, hey, we don't even need you. So just go over there and stay there. You're not useful at all. And that's one of the worst things you can tell a man is that you're not needed. You're not useful because especially we're wired to take action, to protect, to serve and to provide. And I looked around and the publisher and I, Zondervan and I looked around and see, I don't think there's ever been a book written like this specifically for young men. And the principles are for really anybody. But the examples I wrote are all examples of, here's how this principle looks for a guy in his 20s. And each chapter is a separate issue that guys either ask me a lot about, or I just see that guys need to know about that they've never been told. Like when I talk about the caveman and how to deal with emotions to a guy face to face, he's like, wait, what emotions aren't bad? Like I don't have to just distract my way out of them. It's like the light goes on. And so I thought, let's write this in a way that tries to reach those guys that have been forgotten.

Speaker 1:
[51:51] Yeah. Tell me one of the chapters, the subject of it that you tackled.

Speaker 2:
[51:55] The first one right off of the bat is distractions, especially for guys. I'm like, all right, distraction is the enemy of everything that you're capable of becoming because there is a war and each guy has a purpose. Each person has a purpose and distraction, especially for guys. I see that as the silent killer and I'm okay. I'm not making distraction itself the enemy because I don't really care whether it's like one of my friends, he's in his 20s and every night after work, he goes home and he watches a movie, like two or three hours. I'm like, what are you doing? Like what, how do you have, first, how do you have that much time? And then what are you trying to distract yourself from? So whether it's a substance or looking at the wrong stuff or movies, whatever, I'm like, let's take the thing you're doing and let's figure out what's it helping you run away from. Because if we actually confront the thing we're running away from, then we realize, oh, here's who I am, here's my purpose, and here's what I'm made for. That's growth and that's fulfillment.

Speaker 1:
[52:51] That's really good. It's called Tough Enough and it's out now. People can get it wherever books are sold. And tell us where people can follow you to because you're on Instagram and other places.

Speaker 2:
[53:02] So first with a book, I always want to say, I'm donating any profits I might make from the book to organizations that help young men and also to help end human trafficking. So I say I'm all about helping these people and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm not trying to line my pockets with this thing. So trying to get that message into as many people as I can. So the book is available wherever books are sold. So Rugged Counseling is my social media. toughenoughbook.com is where they can learn more about the book itself.

Speaker 1:
[53:28] Awesome. Well, Trey, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. This was so good.

Speaker 2:
[53:31] This was awesome. Thank you for having me.