transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:16] Hello, and welcome to Car Talk from National Public Radio with us, Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers, and we're broadcasting this week from the Murky Behavioral Research Center here at Car Talk Plaza. This is a study of sorts, I guess, sent to us by someone named Peter Graham of the Department of Behavioral Sciences, Pensacola Junior College in Florida.

Speaker 2:
[00:37] This is not a study of sorts, this is brilliant.

Speaker 1:
[00:40] You think so, huh?

Speaker 2:
[00:41] Oh, here's what Peter, what's his name, Peter?

Speaker 1:
[00:44] Peter Graham.

Speaker 2:
[00:45] Peter, I teach an experimental psychology class and ask our not brain dead students to design and run an experiment. One of them came up with the idea of looking at the effect of gender on car repairs. Now, get this, Tammy disconnected the ground wire for the check engine light on her still under warranty Kia, so the light came on. Then she took the car to 10 different repair shops and asked them what to do about it. Got it. She also had her six foot four macho boyfriend, Corey, take the car a week or two later to the same shops. Okay? Got it. Here's what we got here.

Speaker 1:
[01:24] Let's find out the results.

Speaker 2:
[01:26] We got 10 shops and first we have the diagnosis that Tammy got and the cost to fix it. And for the same shop, in many cases, the same mechanic.

Speaker 1:
[01:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[01:39] The diagnosis that Corey got. Now, shop number one, they told her she needed a new alternator, 385 bucks. Two weeks later, Corey goes in. The wire to your light is out. Cost zero. Shop number two, oxygen sensor and Cadillac converter. 320 bucks. There's a little asterisk. The mechanic offered to cut her a deal if she would go out with them. Corey got the same diagnosis except in the case of Tammy, the price was 320 dollars.

Speaker 1:
[02:13] Did he go out with the mechanic?

Speaker 2:
[02:14] In the case of Corey, he didn't want to go out with him. 135 dollars. Shop number three, Tammy goes, fuel injector, 565 bucks. Corey, the wire is loose, 10 dollars. Shop number four, you need a transmission, Tammy, 2,400 dollars. Corey, same shop, the wire is loose, price zero. Shop number five, to Tammy, the wire is loose. For Corey, the wire is loose, that was the same.

Speaker 1:
[02:45] Shop number six, call it a push in Vegas.

Speaker 2:
[02:49] Shop number six, you need a water pump, 765 dollars.

Speaker 1:
[02:53] So wait a minute, the lights on and you need a water pump.

Speaker 2:
[02:56] Get that. Shop number seven, oxygen sensor. Shop number eight, told Tammy she needs a head gasket for 300 bucks. They told Corey, the loose wire, zero.

Speaker 1:
[03:10] I see the trend here. You get it.

Speaker 2:
[03:12] Shop number nine, you have a faulty exhaust system, 1345 dollars for Tammy. For Corey, a loose wire, zero. This goes on and on.

Speaker 1:
[03:22] Well, it's pretty obvious then, that if you need your car fixed, you better be 6'4, and a guy. Right?

Speaker 2:
[03:30] Man, this is serious business. And I think this is very widespread, quite widespread.

Speaker 1:
[03:37] I know it is. I mean, you see it in every day in our shop. Anyway, if you'd like some bogus information about repairs for your car, our number is 1-888-CAR-TALK. That's 888-227-825. Hello, you're on Car Talk.

Speaker 3:
[03:53] Hi, my name is Lindley.

Speaker 1:
[03:55] Lindley, you need an oxygen sensor and a water pump.

Speaker 2:
[03:58] That would be $1,345, Lindley. But when you go out with me, I can cut that down to $1.50.

Speaker 3:
[04:05] Actually, they just got me for two oxygen sensors.

Speaker 1:
[04:08] You have a Nissan Sentra.

Speaker 3:
[04:09] Actually, I have a 96 Jetta.

Speaker 1:
[04:11] Oh, a Jetta.

Speaker 3:
[04:12] And I innocently enough took it in for routine maintenance. It's got about 38,000 miles on it. And I got a phone call that afternoon saying that the compression test had come back with one of the cylinders being around 75 pounds of pressure.

Speaker 1:
[04:27] What year Jetta is this?

Speaker 3:
[04:28] 1996, 38,000 miles. Wait a minute.

Speaker 2:
[04:31] We haven't even determined how to spell Lindley yet. And you're already talking about a 96 Jetta.

Speaker 3:
[04:35] Well, go ahead and try to spell my name.

Speaker 2:
[04:37] Is it just L-I-N-L-E-Y?

Speaker 3:
[04:39] That's correct. You're one of the first people who got it right.

Speaker 2:
[04:41] Oh, really?

Speaker 1:
[04:43] I had a W in there, but I don't know where.

Speaker 2:
[04:45] A W? Oh, it started. W-L-I-N-E-O. And where are you from, Lindley?

Speaker 3:
[04:53] I'm calling from Seattle, Washington.

Speaker 2:
[04:56] Seattle. Got it. Okay, so you got a 96 Jetta. You brought it in for what reason again?

Speaker 3:
[05:01] Just routine maintenance.

Speaker 2:
[05:02] Routine maintenance. They say one of your cylinders has got 75 pounds of compression.

Speaker 3:
[05:06] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[05:07] Okay, so continue.

Speaker 3:
[05:08] He gave me an estimate for rebuilding the head for about $1,700. And I checked my warranty and realized that I was still under a powertrain warranty. Oh, lucky you. So I took it to a Volkswagen dealer in Seattle.

Speaker 1:
[05:22] Oh, so this wasn't the dealer that you went to?

Speaker 3:
[05:24] No, it wasn't. It was a private mechanic.

Speaker 1:
[05:26] Right, okay.

Speaker 2:
[05:28] That makes more sense.

Speaker 3:
[05:29] So I was expecting that. So I told them the problem and they said, well, if you're covered and if it's an engine problem, we'd be happy to replace the engine. So I thought, great, this isn't going to cost me $1,700. However, they called me after they took a look at it and said they had retested the compression and that the four cylinder was at 210 pounds. So I'm wondering, is that possible to have it 75 at one day and 210 the next?

Speaker 2:
[05:52] Well, it depends if the car is under stress. It's like blood pressure. So one day you take the blood pressure at 190 over 150 or something, and you take it the next day and it's 40 over 10.

Speaker 3:
[06:06] It doesn't sound healthy either way.

Speaker 2:
[06:07] It doesn't sound healthy. But it's kind of unlikely that your compression, if someone did it correctly, it's kind of unlikely. We could attribute it to a faulty gauge, for example. Let's do that.

Speaker 1:
[06:22] Well, let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 2:
[06:25] Otherwise we would have to call him a no-good rotten sleazeball. And we don't want to do that because he might be in the club.

Speaker 3:
[06:33] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[06:34] Right. But he's probably a no-good rotten sleazeball.

Speaker 1:
[06:38] Probably. So you mentioned something about oxygen sensors.

Speaker 3:
[06:43] Right. The dealer, after they determined, they said that there was no compression issue, they did say that both of my oxygen sensors had gone out and they went ahead and replaced them and they said that could possibly be related to whatever was going on.

Speaker 1:
[06:58] They did those under warranty?

Speaker 3:
[07:00] No, they did not.

Speaker 1:
[07:01] They should have.

Speaker 3:
[07:02] Really?

Speaker 1:
[07:02] I believe so.

Speaker 3:
[07:03] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:04] I believe they should have done it under warranty.

Speaker 2:
[07:05] Oh, sure, because it's part of the emission-related stuff.

Speaker 1:
[07:07] Exactly.

Speaker 3:
[07:08] Okay. Part of my question, too, is why would my oxygen sensors, both of them, go out at such a relatively early age for my car?

Speaker 1:
[07:16] Well, they figured you'd be so ecstatic about not having to pay for a valve job that you'd pay for almost anything else.

Speaker 3:
[07:22] That's what happened, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:24] Well, this does demonstrate that women are often treated poorly, as Peter Graham's research showed, when they go in to get their cars fixed. And I think the first guy was trying to, what's the word?

Speaker 2:
[07:38] Rip you off.

Speaker 1:
[07:38] Rip you off. There you go.

Speaker 3:
[07:40] I need to find somebody brand new to go to.

Speaker 2:
[07:42] For one thing, it's almost unheard of to have bad compression at 38,000 miles.

Speaker 3:
[07:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[07:48] So even if he did have bad compression, he should have suggested to you, no matter what, that you go back to the dealer and ask them to fix it for free.

Speaker 3:
[07:56] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[07:56] And he didn't do that. So he was trying to rip you off. I would find someone else. And it demonstrates the power of the second opinion.

Speaker 3:
[08:03] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[08:04] My brother asks for a second opinion all the time.

Speaker 4:
[08:06] It usually is.

Speaker 1:
[08:06] And you're ugly, too.

Speaker 2:
[08:07] You're still ugly.

Speaker 3:
[08:10] That's funny.

Speaker 4:
[08:11] Well, good.

Speaker 3:
[08:12] Well, I guess I'll just keep searching.

Speaker 1:
[08:14] Keep searching.

Speaker 2:
[08:14] And don't go to that guy anymore.

Speaker 1:
[08:17] Yeah. And tell the dealer that you'd like them to refund your money, because this should be covered by the emissions warranty.

Speaker 3:
[08:22] I'll be happy to do that.

Speaker 2:
[08:23] When your warranty runs out and you're looking for a good VW mechanic, go to the mechanics files on cartalk.cars.com.

Speaker 3:
[08:30] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[08:30] And you'll find somebody in Seattle.

Speaker 3:
[08:32] Gotcha. I'll be happy to do that. I've checked your site before, and it's great.

Speaker 1:
[08:35] See you, Lily.

Speaker 2:
[08:35] Thanks.

Speaker 1:
[08:36] Thanks. Bye-bye.

Speaker 2:
[08:37] That was like a shameless plug for our website. Wasn't it? It was blatant. It was shameless. And it was totally uncalled for. I'm ashamed of myself. I'm ashamed of myself. I am.

Speaker 1:
[08:49] And you should be. Here we've got more calls in the puzzler answer coming up right after this. Hi, we're back, you're listening to Car Talk with us, Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers, and we're here to talk about cars, car repair, and duh, the answer to last week's puzzler. Now, this was submitted by Ross Sukashima, I assume, if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, and he writes, A friend of mine used to work at a Ford assembly plant, and he told me the following story that took place some years ago. A new model came out, and like any new model, there were bugs that needed to be worked out. Amongst these problems was one really strange one. Seemed that one out of every six cars delivered to a dealership would have a dead battery. The engineers at Ford were perplexed. They did circuit tests for short circuits. They tested their own shorts, and none were found. They did extensive lot testing on batteries to see if one out of every six was a problem from the battery manufacturer. No. No luck. They hired specialists and consultants, experts on batteries and chemicals to try and pinpoint a problem, and of course, they found nothing. For three months, the problem existed, and for three months, the problem remained the same. One out of every six cars delivered would have a dead battery. He says, my friend was a quality control engineer and decided to take things into his own hands. He walked the entire assembly plant, talked to workers, started out in components. Then he went to Chassis, the electrical, the cafeteria, and he wound up at final test. And without fail, each car would start up at the end and was driven away.

Speaker 2:
[10:32] So we're back to the cafeteria.

Speaker 1:
[10:34] There were no dead batteries at final test. He was stumped. He watched the cars being loaded for shipment and then turned around to talk to the guy in charge of final test. He asked him if there were ever any dead batteries at final test. The guy said, no, never.

Speaker 2:
[10:50] Yeah. See, the only thing I get out of that is that whatever happened, as they were loading the vehicles on to the truck.

Speaker 1:
[10:58] You're so close. He then explained the situation. One out of six batteries was dead. He pondered and smiled and said he knew what the problem was. The question is, what was it? I gave a hint. This was the old days when cars were big.

Speaker 2:
[11:14] When cars were big.

Speaker 1:
[11:16] And the big trucks that carried the cars held, how many cars do you figure?

Speaker 2:
[11:19] Five.

Speaker 1:
[11:20] How about six?

Speaker 2:
[11:24] Six is good. Well, they should have only had five.

Speaker 1:
[11:27] They should have had only five. That's right. But because they had six, one of them was always at such an angle that the mercury switch for the trunk light was turning the trunk light on for the entire time the car was being transported on the truck.

Speaker 5:
[11:42] Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] And that was killing the batteries when by the time they reached their destination, one out of the six batteries was dead.

Speaker 2:
[11:53] What mercury switch for the trunk light?

Speaker 4:
[11:56] There's no such thing.

Speaker 1:
[11:57] Of course there is.

Speaker 2:
[11:58] I won't touch it, though.

Speaker 1:
[11:59] No. That's fine.

Speaker 2:
[12:01] Fine. It's a great answer. Great. Absolutely great.

Speaker 1:
[12:09] Who's our winner?

Speaker 2:
[12:10] No winner. The winner is Kathleen Sullivan. Ah, Kathleen Sullivan, a fine brat of a last. From La Plata, Maryland. And for having her answer selected at random from among the thousands of chances that we got, Kathleen is going to get a $25 gift certificate to the Car Talk Shameless Commerce Division on our website.

Speaker 1:
[12:30] Really?

Speaker 2:
[12:31] And with this $25 gift certificate, she can get a copy of, for example, among other things. This is not a suggestion. Just as an example, our new book, In Our Humble Opinion, which, as we know, will make a pretty good table leveler.

Speaker 1:
[12:45] Indeed.

Speaker 2:
[12:46] At least according to all the reviews that I've heard. Good luck, and congratulations, Kathleen Sullivan, from La Plata, Mexico.

Speaker 1:
[12:58] We'll have a new, I guess I'd have to call it, automotive puzzler coming up in the third half of today's show, so stay tuned for that. It may not be automotive. I may change my mind. In the meantime, if you'd like to call us about anything, the number is 1-888-CAR-TALK. That's 888-227-8255. Hello, you're on Car Talk.

Speaker 6:
[13:17] Hi, guys. This is Enrico Farina in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Speaker 2:
[13:21] Enrico, what a beautiful name.

Speaker 6:
[13:23] I cannot be Arub Gupta, though.

Speaker 2:
[13:26] No, you will never be Arub Gupta. But say your last name again.

Speaker 6:
[13:32] Farina.

Speaker 1:
[13:33] Farina.

Speaker 2:
[13:33] Like Farina.

Speaker 1:
[13:34] Like flour.

Speaker 6:
[13:35] I am the Vero McCoy. I'm Italian.

Speaker 2:
[13:38] The Vero McCoy. That's MCCOI.

Speaker 1:
[13:45] It's C-U-O-I.

Speaker 6:
[13:48] Translate it to Italian. You'll get it.

Speaker 2:
[13:50] Well, I'll work on Enrico Farina. It might be okay.

Speaker 1:
[13:54] So where are you from?

Speaker 6:
[13:55] I'm born in Italy, brought up in Argentina.

Speaker 2:
[14:00] Where in Italy were you born, Enrico?

Speaker 6:
[14:02] In Italy. In Milano.

Speaker 2:
[14:03] Milano.

Speaker 1:
[14:04] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[14:05] Una belle città.

Speaker 6:
[14:06] Una belissima.

Speaker 2:
[14:08] So what's up, Enrico? What's new in Tulsa?

Speaker 6:
[14:10] In Tulsa, everything is just fine.

Speaker 2:
[14:12] Well, how the heck did you get to Tulsa? You went from Milan to Argentina. To Tulsa?

Speaker 6:
[14:19] I have a sister living here, so I moved from Argentina to Tulsa because we are the only blood relatives left in the family.

Speaker 1:
[14:28] Well, that's interesting. We have a sister that lives in the Boston area, and that's why we're looking to relocate. How is Tulsa?

Speaker 6:
[14:34] I don't know. I've heard about her.

Speaker 1:
[14:37] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] So what's up? What's up?

Speaker 6:
[14:39] Okay. I have a Nissan Sentra 95, power locks, and the power locks going crazy.

Speaker 2:
[14:47] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[14:47] So they just have a life of their own. They close whether I'm driving, I'm with the key on, I'm with the car off. Anyway, it's crazy. So of course, I went to a couple of good guys, mechanics.

Speaker 2:
[15:05] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[15:06] And they just scratch their head and say, you need to go to the dealership, which I did. And guess what? Oh yeah, we need to change everything. It's going to cost you only 550 bucks plus labor.

Speaker 2:
[15:18] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[15:19] So I say, okay, thank you very much for the information. And I called you.

Speaker 2:
[15:24] Is it possible to disable the electric thing?

Speaker 1:
[15:28] Yes. Sure it is.

Speaker 2:
[15:29] It's not like power steering.

Speaker 1:
[15:31] No, you can, if you want it to, I believe on this car, you can disconnect the power door locks and still operate them by hand.

Speaker 6:
[15:39] Well, if that's the whole solution, I think I'll wait during the summer. It works just fine.

Speaker 1:
[15:46] But these things go up and down on their own?

Speaker 6:
[15:50] The power locks close on their own.

Speaker 1:
[15:52] Here's what I think it is.

Speaker 2:
[15:54] I don't think you have to replace everything, if that's what they do.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] No, I think you have a couple of broken wires in the driver's door. You know, in order for the power door locks to work, you can operate everything from your driver's door. You lock the driver's door, it locks everything else. You unlock the driver's door, it unlocks everything else. And in order for that to happen, there must be wires going from the door, where the switch is located, into the body of the car. And they pass right through, there's a big fat harness, it looks like a salsiccia, okay?

Speaker 2:
[16:27] And there are wires inside.

Speaker 1:
[16:29] And one or more of those wires is broken. And I would be willing to bet that when a couple of them that are broken touch together, it's the equivalent of touching the switch.

Speaker 6:
[16:39] Oh, I see.

Speaker 1:
[16:40] So you need to have somebody open that harness and find the broken wires. And I bet you that's going to fix the thing.

Speaker 2:
[16:47] You might, I mean, you might still spend 550 bucks on the time it takes to find the bad wires.

Speaker 1:
[16:54] Well, if we do it, of course, but you're going to spend 100 bucks to fix this, and the problem is in that harness leading out of the driver's door. I'd almost be willing to bet on it.

Speaker 6:
[17:03] Fantastic.

Speaker 1:
[17:04] I wouldn't bet any money, but I would bet something, you know.

Speaker 6:
[17:06] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[17:07] Enrico, piacere.

Speaker 6:
[17:09] Piacere, cari, love your show.

Speaker 1:
[17:11] Ciao. Thanks, bye bye. 1-888-CAR-TALK, that's 888-227-8255. Hello, you're on Car Talk.

Speaker 7:
[17:19] This is Rebecca from Oklahoma. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[17:24] So what's up?

Speaker 7:
[17:25] Well, I have a 93 Honda Accord that my dad gave me. The clutch, when I first got it, it was fine. I drove it from Chicago because my dad lives in Chicago and I live here. So I drove it from Chicago and it was great. I get here and the weather started getting hot about three weeks ago. I tried to shift it into reverse and it wouldn't shift at all. I had to try to shove it into reverse. I thought that can't be good.

Speaker 2:
[17:51] And what was it doing?

Speaker 7:
[17:53] It was very loud grinding and it went. Then it took about, this is just the first time, it took about three minutes for it to start shifting. The stick would shift weirdly.

Speaker 1:
[18:02] Right, right, right.

Speaker 7:
[18:04] Then we began engaging right off the floor and then other times it will engage half a foot off the floor. Whoa.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] Well, this doesn't sound great.

Speaker 7:
[18:15] I know. I don't think it's great at all because it's been at the mechanic and they have not called me back and my car is stuck there.

Speaker 1:
[18:21] We do that occasion. We try to wait people out.

Speaker 2:
[18:24] Yeah, maybe they'll forget where they left it. What mechanic did I bring? I brought it to three places, I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[18:32] Well, here's what I think.

Speaker 2:
[18:33] Well, but wait, first of all, before future reference, next time something like this happens, don't make it grind and jam it in, especially if it's reverse.

Speaker 7:
[18:42] You're right.

Speaker 2:
[18:42] Shut off the engine.

Speaker 7:
[18:44] You're right.

Speaker 2:
[18:44] Then it will go into reverse.

Speaker 1:
[18:45] Go into any gear.

Speaker 7:
[18:47] That's what I did.

Speaker 2:
[18:48] Oh, you did?

Speaker 7:
[18:48] Well, I did that like the second time, the first time I just hit.

Speaker 2:
[18:51] You didn't tell us that. You said you gave it muscle and you jammed it in.

Speaker 7:
[18:54] I did jam it.

Speaker 2:
[18:55] Kicking and screaming.

Speaker 7:
[18:57] And then I turned it off and I put it into reverse. And then it wouldn't shift out of reverse. So then I was stuck turning the car off, putting in the first, putting the car on.

Speaker 2:
[19:05] See, at least if you do that, I know it's inconvenient. But if you do have a clutch problem, you don't want to add to it a transmission problem because then it really runs into money.

Speaker 7:
[19:15] Well, and then the question is like, if it is going to cost a lot of money, should I give it back to my dad? Yes. Before I do the repairs.

Speaker 1:
[19:23] Well, here's what you should do. These guys who looked at it must have, first of all, should have checked first the hydraulic clutch. This thing I believe has a hydraulic clutch with a master cylinder and a slave cylinder and it takes fluid. And my first inclination was that you had a failed clutch master cylinder.

Speaker 2:
[19:44] That was my first inclination too. You have a second inclination?

Speaker 1:
[19:47] I do.

Speaker 3:
[19:48] Get out of town!

Speaker 1:
[19:49] I do and I'm 99% sure that I'm right.

Speaker 2:
[19:53] Oh, really?

Speaker 1:
[19:53] And what's wrong with this car is that one of the anti-chatter springs in the clutch has fallen out.

Speaker 7:
[20:00] Anti-chatter springs?

Speaker 1:
[20:02] And it's jammed between the flywheel and the disc or between the clutch cover and the disc.

Speaker 2:
[20:09] You're crazy.

Speaker 1:
[20:18] But that's what it is. Or it isn't the whole spring, it's a piece of the spring.

Speaker 7:
[20:22] The anti-chatter spring.

Speaker 1:
[20:24] Yes. The hub of the clutch disc has a bunch of springs, like five or six of them, that go right around where the spline is. And one of those is broken and that piece occasionally gets jammed in between the pieces of the clutch and the flywheel, thus making the thing difficult to disengage. Why? Because you step on the pedal, you try to disengage it, but now in a sense you have a big fat thick clutch in there.

Speaker 2:
[20:50] Right, because the spring is the clutch disc now.

Speaker 1:
[20:52] Exactly. The spring is now transmitting the power. And then the piece flies off someplace.

Speaker 2:
[20:57] And then it comes back?

Speaker 1:
[20:58] It comes back. Sure, because what happens? You shut the thing off.

Speaker 7:
[21:01] You're crazy.

Speaker 2:
[21:03] You're absolutely crazy.

Speaker 1:
[21:05] Rebecca, I've seen it happen at least once. I'll admit, it was in Roswell, New Mexico. But tell him to yank the transmission. And I'm going to go on our website and recommend that you be on Stump the Chumps.

Speaker 2:
[21:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:21] Because I'm 100% convinced now, especially considering the razzing I just got from my brother.

Speaker 2:
[21:27] Well, I will admit that it's perfectly, entirely possible.

Speaker 1:
[21:34] And likely.

Speaker 2:
[21:35] And I had trouble, I will admit also, that I had trouble making the hydraulic diagnosis fit the symptom.

Speaker 1:
[21:44] Have them yank the transmission and put a new clutch in it. That's going to fix it.

Speaker 7:
[21:47] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[21:48] See you, Rebecca.

Speaker 7:
[21:49] Thanks.

Speaker 1:
[21:49] Good luck. Thanks for your call. Okay, it's time for me and my brother to take a short break and work up a detailed outline for the next 20 minutes of the show.

Speaker 2:
[21:57] I have the outline. And here, it's right here. Roman numeral one, take calls. Roman numeral two, fool around.

Speaker 1:
[22:06] I thought fool around was one and take calls was two. We'll have to discuss this. We'll be back in a minute. We're back. You're listening to Car Talk with us, Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers. And we're here to discuss cars, car repair, and the, the new puzzler.

Speaker 2:
[22:26] Yeah, make it good, man.

Speaker 1:
[22:28] Oh. You had to spoil it. This came from someone named Rob, who used to work for Applied Logic, because that was his e-mail address, but I'm sure you got.

Speaker 2:
[22:37] No, he's fired by now.

Speaker 1:
[22:38] For unauthorized use of the company time, email and all that. Yeah. Anyway, here it goes. My wife owns a 92 Olds Achiever with a quad four, five speed manual transmission and all that other stuff, power everything. One morning she's heading out to work and she comes back into the house and says, my car won't start. I go out and I listen as she tries to start the car. She turns the key, zippo, not even a click. Being in a hurry, she takes my car. So I put the battery charger on her car and later in the day, I go out and I start it right up. I drive it around a bit to charge the battery. Everything's fine. The next day, the exact same thing happens. She turns the key, zippo. I visit a website and I find instructions for determining if there's a drain on the battery and all that.

Speaker 2:
[23:29] I do the test.

Speaker 1:
[23:30] I find out there's no drain. So what would any half-intelligent person do? Because I'll buy a new battery.

Speaker 2:
[23:37] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[23:38] So the new battery is installed. The next morning, same problem.

Speaker 2:
[23:42] With the brand new battery.

Speaker 1:
[23:43] So we push the car out and I jumped it from my car. I get in it, I turn the key, and I drive her car to the dealership, and she follows in my car. They call back later to report that they couldn't find a darn thing wrong with it, but we're charging $180 nevertheless.

Speaker 2:
[24:02] Tammy.

Speaker 1:
[24:03] We told them, let it sit there overnight and try it in the morning. They called the next morning and said what? No.

Speaker 2:
[24:08] Started right up.

Speaker 1:
[24:09] Started up like a shot. Oh. So we go to the dealer.

Speaker 2:
[24:12] Geographic.

Speaker 1:
[24:13] So my wife, she says, my wife gets in with her keys, turns the key, won't start. And we're standing there scratching our heads.

Speaker 2:
[24:25] I don't believe it.

Speaker 1:
[24:26] You don't believe it, do you? I don't believe it.

Speaker 2:
[24:29] I don't. It's brilliant, though.

Speaker 1:
[24:31] At which point I ask her, did you just buy something for your car?

Speaker 2:
[24:36] Yeah. And she says yes.

Speaker 1:
[24:38] Yes, I did. The question is, what did she buy? And why? In addition to the battery. Yeah. What did she buy that was preventing it from starting? Now, if you think you know the answer, write it on a postcard. Or better still, but only slightly better still, a mahogany humidor filled with hand-rolled Cuban cigars, Monterey Excaliburs, to be precise, and send it to Puzzler Tower, Car Talk Plaza, Box 3500, Harvard Square, Cambridge.

Speaker 2:
[25:14] Our very fair city.

Speaker 1:
[25:16] MA 02238. Or you can email your answer from the Car Talk section of cars.com. If you'd like to call us, the number is 1-888-CAR-TALK. That's 888-227-8255. Hello, you're on Car Talk.

Speaker 4:
[25:30] Hi guys, it's Herman from Indianapolis.

Speaker 1:
[25:32] Hi Herman.

Speaker 4:
[25:32] Herman, how are you?

Speaker 1:
[25:33] Oh, we're great.

Speaker 4:
[25:35] That's good, you won't be after you hear my problem.

Speaker 1:
[25:37] No, do we owe you money? You're suing us, are you suing us? You're not suing us?

Speaker 2:
[25:43] Not yet.

Speaker 1:
[25:43] Then everything's good.

Speaker 2:
[25:44] We haven't given him an answer yet. What's up Herman?

Speaker 4:
[25:48] Okay, we've got a 1987 Volkswagen Golf.

Speaker 2:
[25:51] Yep.

Speaker 4:
[25:51] About two weeks ago, it started to have a problem. It would lurch after you got above five miles an hour, like it does when you first learn how to drive a manual transmission. Got it. Just the bucking and all. Couldn't get it to stop, took it to the mechanic. He changed out the fuel pump, said that we apparently got bad gas and changed it out. Thing ran fine, drove it home, no problem. Next time I got in it, same thing, the lurching and the jumping again. Looked back to him and he said, well, apparently the clogged fuel filter caused problems with the fuel pump, so he changed out the fuel pump. Ran fine. As soon as we got it home, started it up again an hour later and the same thing.

Speaker 2:
[26:35] But you made it home, right?

Speaker 4:
[26:36] Yeah, we made it home.

Speaker 1:
[26:37] As you got home or as you approached home, it started to run worse and worse?

Speaker 4:
[26:42] Fine until you shut the car off.

Speaker 1:
[26:44] Okay, and then what happened the next morning?

Speaker 4:
[26:46] The next time you start it, and it can be an hour later or it could be the next day. And same thing, it lurches and jumps and bounces.

Speaker 1:
[26:53] So it runs okay until it warms up?

Speaker 4:
[26:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[26:57] Aha!

Speaker 2:
[26:58] Aha!

Speaker 1:
[27:00] I think he's barking up the wrong tree because every time he replaces the fuel pump, in order to do that, he's gonna let the thing sit, it cools off, he puts the fuel pump in, he starts it up, runs great, he drives it around the block a few times and he says, I'll call Herman and tell him his car is all fixed. And by the time you actually drive it a reasonable distance, it starts misbehaving. I don't think the problem is in the fuel pump at all. In fact, I know it. I mean, what are the chances? I mean, we always have nine fuel pumps in.

Speaker 2:
[27:27] How long can this go on?

Speaker 1:
[27:30] I think it's more likely to be, for example, your bad ignition coil. It could be something as simple as a bad ignition rotor. We see that a lot in Volkswagens. It could also be a bad airflow sensor.

Speaker 4:
[27:42] Airflow sensor. Okay, I'm writing all this down.

Speaker 2:
[27:45] I'm personally voting for the coil.

Speaker 1:
[27:47] Oh, yeah. He's got a classic coil symptom. The first thing he should do is just replace the ignition rotor and let the thing run for half an hour and drive it. If it's still, that costs five bucks. If it still misbehaves, then he should go ahead and test the coil. And he should test the stuff hot.

Speaker 2:
[28:04] When the engine's hot. Because if you test it when it's cold, it'll be good. And he'll say, it's fine. Just like the fuel pump is fine.

Speaker 4:
[28:11] Yeah, like it does when I drive it home.

Speaker 1:
[28:12] Yeah. My gut feeling is ignition. Either the rotor or a spark plug wire or something like that, or the ignition coil. And it's the right age to need anything.

Speaker 4:
[28:25] OK. It needs everything.

Speaker 2:
[28:28] Well, it's not everything.

Speaker 4:
[28:29] If my kid's car, he's a junior in college now, it has to last one more year.

Speaker 1:
[28:34] You'll hope just one.

Speaker 2:
[28:35] You'll make it.

Speaker 1:
[28:36] Good luck.

Speaker 4:
[28:37] Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1:
[28:37] Start with the cheap stuff. Bye-bye. 1-888-CAR-TALK. That's 888-227-8255. Hello, you're on Car Talk.

Speaker 5:
[28:47] This is Susan Smedegar from Montana.

Speaker 2:
[28:49] No last names, please.

Speaker 1:
[28:50] Hi, Susan. Susan something or other from Montana.

Speaker 5:
[28:53] Smedegar.

Speaker 1:
[28:54] Smedegar.

Speaker 2:
[28:54] Smedegar.

Speaker 1:
[28:56] Montana. M-A-T-A-N-E-R.

Speaker 2:
[28:59] A-N-N. I think it's two N's. A-N-N-E-R.

Speaker 5:
[29:02] Close enough.

Speaker 1:
[29:03] So what's going on, Susan?

Speaker 5:
[29:05] I have an 85 Subaru GL10 wagon and I'm on my fifth water pump in a year.

Speaker 1:
[29:11] Oh, really?

Speaker 5:
[29:12] Really. I had it replaced in May of 99 and this was all just preventative maintenance type thing.

Speaker 1:
[29:19] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[29:19] And it went out the first time in the end of July. And they said that it wasn't installed right, that it hadn't been bolted down or something.

Speaker 1:
[29:28] That would do it.

Speaker 2:
[29:29] How did you know that it was something wrong with it?

Speaker 1:
[29:32] It wasn't leaked out.

Speaker 5:
[29:33] Because like it stranded us on the side of the road.

Speaker 1:
[29:35] And it overheated, right?

Speaker 5:
[29:37] But the thing is that it doesn't really overheat. The temperature doesn't go up.

Speaker 1:
[29:41] So how do you know?

Speaker 2:
[29:42] Then how do you know anything is wrong?

Speaker 5:
[29:44] There's a whining that starts about a minute before. It lurches kind of, there's a chunk and it's over. The coolant is pouring out.

Speaker 2:
[29:53] There's a clunk or a chunk? Well, it kind of just goes, And all of a sudden the fluid is pouring out of the water pump?

Speaker 5:
[30:01] I'm assuming the water pump. I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[30:03] When you get it towed in, they say, Oh, the water pump failed. Right. And they put another one in.

Speaker 5:
[30:08] Right.

Speaker 1:
[30:08] And then the car is okay.

Speaker 5:
[30:10] And then the car is fine. And so then it goes out again the 1st of September.

Speaker 2:
[30:14] And each...

Speaker 1:
[30:14] Susan, do you know Doug Berman? Do you know Doug? Do you know who Doug Berman is? He's our producer.

Speaker 2:
[30:20] Did he pay you to call us?

Speaker 1:
[30:22] Did he call you? Did he tell you to phony up this whole store? I mean, this is...

Speaker 2:
[30:26] Give us a break, will you?

Speaker 5:
[30:28] It is the sound of the true tale.

Speaker 1:
[30:30] I mean, has anyone come up with an explanation to date?

Speaker 5:
[30:33] Let's see, the 3rd water pump, they said that there was nothing wrong with the part that something in my car was out of alignment.

Speaker 2:
[30:39] There was nothing wrong with the pump?

Speaker 1:
[30:42] I'm beginning to believe that.

Speaker 2:
[30:43] Well, we would have to, wouldn't we?

Speaker 1:
[30:45] I'm beginning to believe that...

Speaker 5:
[30:46] Okay, I took it in, and...

Speaker 1:
[30:49] They couldn't find anything.

Speaker 5:
[30:50] They said nothing's out of alignment.

Speaker 1:
[30:52] Here's what happened. I got it.

Speaker 2:
[30:54] You've got it.

Speaker 1:
[30:54] This engine, because it's 107 years, you must have about 180,000 miles on this thing, right?

Speaker 5:
[31:00] It's got almost 114,000.

Speaker 2:
[31:02] I'm not going to like your answer. I want you to know right now, you're making this up.

Speaker 1:
[31:06] You're going to love it. You are going to love it.

Speaker 3:
[31:09] If it's Keith, I'll love it.

Speaker 1:
[31:11] If it's Susan, you're going to love it too, because it explains everything so elegantly as to be almost unbelievable.

Speaker 2:
[31:21] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[31:22] You have excessive crankshaft end play. Oh. Oh, Tommy is changing his tune.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] I'm changing my tune.

Speaker 1:
[31:30] So that the crankshaft is moving in and out. It's not supposed to do this, but because it has this play, when you rev up the engine and the crankshaft moves in and out, the belt which drives the water pump is driven by the crankshaft pulley, it is putting a force on that pulley that is pulling the shaft out of the pump.

Speaker 2:
[31:55] Oh, man. Again, my brother has done it. No one, no one could have come up with this theory. No one in the entire Western world, including Australia.

Speaker 1:
[32:09] I think that's what's happening. You should ask them to check for crankshaft play. I believe your thrust bearing in the engine is worn. All right. Tell them these bozos on the radio think you have a bad thrust bearing and that's actually causing the shaft of the water pump to be pulled out, pulled out of its socket.

Speaker 2:
[32:30] I have to say, this would explain everything.

Speaker 1:
[32:34] It's elegant.

Speaker 2:
[32:35] So go somewhere and say, please check for excessive crankshaft end play.

Speaker 1:
[32:41] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[32:42] And they will say, my God, how?

Speaker 1:
[32:45] Who were these men?

Speaker 2:
[32:46] Susan, how did you come up with that? And you say, it came to me in a dream.

Speaker 1:
[32:51] See you, Susan. Good luck. Call us next week. We'll tell you what car you should buy.

Speaker 5:
[32:56] Okay, thank you. See you.

Speaker 1:
[32:58] Bye-bye. Well, it's happened again. You've wasted another perfectly good hour listening to Car Talk. Our esteemed producer is Doug, the subway fugitive, not a slave to fashion, cute, cute, cute. Berman. Berman. What did I say? Cute, cute, cute. Our associate producer is our Frau Catherine Pickle Fenolosa. Thank you. And Louis Cronin, the barbarian. Our engineer is George Hicks. Our senior web blackie is Doug, the old gray mayor and our technical, spiritual and menu advisor just back from his victory at the Tour de Fork in France is John Bugsy Lawler. Our public opinion pollster is Paul Murky of Murky Research assisted by statistician Marge Inovera. Our customer care representative is Haywood Jabazov. Our director of new product repair is Warranty Myfoot and our shop foreman is Luke Busy. Our dermatologist for teenagers is Don Pickett. Our divorce attorney is Carmine Notyours. And of course, as always, our Russian chauffeur is Bikov Andropov. Our chief counsel from the law firm of Dewey Cheatham and Howe is U. Louis Dewey, known to the bread truck flat and scooter riders in Harford Square as Uee Louee Dewey. Thanks so much for listening. We're Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers. Don't drive like my brother.

Speaker 2:
[34:09] Don't drive like my brother.

Speaker 1:
[34:11] Don't drive like my brother.

Speaker 2:
[34:12] Don't drive like my brother.

Speaker 1:
[34:13] We'll be back next week. Bye bye.

Speaker 2:
[34:17] And now it's a special pleasure for us because in the studio, we have Car Talk Plaza's chief mechanic, Mr. Vinny Goebbels. Vinny.

Speaker 1:
[34:23] And thank you very much. Now, if you out there want a copy of this here show, which happens to be number 26, you can get one on the web. Just head on over to the Schemers Commerce Division online at the Car Talk section at cars.com.

Speaker 2:
[34:37] And what if somebody wanted something else, you know, like our new book, for example, in all a humble opinion? Would they go to that same website, Vin?

Speaker 1:
[34:44] No, you dope. You go to www.biancajaggerwithalangreenspan.com. Of course, you go to the same site. What are you, some kind of moron? You go to the Car Talk section at cars.com where you order by phone. You just call 888-CAR-JUNK.

Speaker 2:
[35:01] Well, thank you, Vinny. That was simply marvelous.

Speaker 1:
[35:04] Hey, marvelous at this, will ya? Car Talk is a production of Do He Cheat Him and Howe and WBUR in Boston.

Speaker 2:
[35:11] And even though the Italian ambassador says, Porca miseria! Ma chi sono questi gavoni? Whenever he hears us say it, this is NPR National Public Radio.