transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:15] This is a Keep Hammering Collective. I'm with Rick Reeves. He is the pastor of my church. Well, it's not really my church, it's a church. I go sometimes, I should go more often, but Gospel Community Church and Rick Reeves.

Speaker 2:
[00:30] You at least got the name right, so that's a good start.

Speaker 1:
[00:32] Well, I had to look at the hat.

Speaker 2:
[00:36] Is that props there for you?

Speaker 1:
[00:37] No, yeah, we got, hey, we're branding, dude. We're branding, dude. It's merchandise. So yeah, what's up?

Speaker 2:
[00:43] Yeah. Well, first, I'm excited to be here, so thanks for having me. But yeah, this kind of started off because I said, hey, we're planting a church down in Roseburg, and you've given me a hard time for that. So we can share those comments or not about how your whole faith is going to fall apart and all of that, because we're going to go plant another church. But yeah, we planted Gospel Community Church in Eugene about 10 years ago, and now we're going to go plant a church down in Roseburg, which is where I grew up. And so we started a conversation and you said we should get you on the podcast. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[01:17] Well, you have a, so I'll give it the CliffsNotes version, a small town like me. So we have that, I mean, we've got a bond there, which that I like people with flaws. Just to be honest.

Speaker 2:
[01:31] You like crazy.

Speaker 1:
[01:32] I like crazy.

Speaker 2:
[01:33] You're drawn to crazy.

Speaker 1:
[01:33] I like flaws. If you've had a perfect life, get away from me. Okay, because I can't learn shit from you. But so I've always really liked. And also I like for whatever, I'm a toxic trait guy, but I like like strong.

Speaker 2:
[01:48] Is that what your therapist told you?

Speaker 1:
[01:49] I guess. But like even as, even as a pastor, it's like, I want to, I want to be able to look at somebody and be like, okay, I respect them. I'm going to listen to what they say. And if somebody's up there talking about, you know, you know, making a carrot cake or they went to Orange Theory and they're a guy, I'm like, I'm out, dude. I can't, I can't do it. So that's a flaw of mine.

Speaker 2:
[02:12] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:13] Yeah. But anyway, so I liked, I liked your sordid past story. Then you fought MMA. You were the holy terror. You had a, you had a nickname.

Speaker 2:
[02:22] Holy soft now. Yeah. But yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:25] So I just love, I mean, it's just a cool trajectory, cool arc. As long as we don't go back down to where you started.

Speaker 2:
[02:34] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[02:35] Cause you're going back to your, your homeland.

Speaker 2:
[02:37] I am, which is, which is in some ways terrifying. So I was back there for the first time this last week. And the start of my sermon was, this is, this is wild to be here. I said, the gospel is not for little engines that could, it's for the train wrecks who can't. And the man standing up here is a living testament of that, which is, which is true. That's not an original quote to me either, by the way. But, and then I looked out, I said, Cody, I saw a guy there, I was like, Cody, I haven't seen you since we arrested together 20 years ago at the fair. And then, you know, there's not a worst place to be arrested than the fair. But, but yeah, that was the start of it. I don't know if Cody will be back, but yeah, that was the start of our first off launch down there this last Sunday. So yeah, yeah. So.

Speaker 1:
[03:19] Well, it's exciting. And also I want to support it. So what we talked about is, you know, a church plant takes money, you know, people whatever you can talk about it, not talk about it, but it's just a fax. You got to rent a facility, you got to pay for the music people, you got to, you know, all this stuff, chairs, whatever. But so I said, okay, let's do a podcast. Let's talk about you. Cause I like your story. Your story is cool to me. It's just, or it's, and it's real and it's like powerful. But so I said, let's, let's do a podcast and I'll just say, Hey, I'm going to give away a bow. And how I do that is like, I do it like one day, if you order something off the website, you can get this, I'll pick somebody who orders and they get a brand new top of the line holy bow. So I said, we'll just do that. Then we'll just use the money from that gift to you for your church plant. And everybody wins.

Speaker 2:
[04:12] Well, it looks sketchy if I put in for the raffle and then I win.

Speaker 1:
[04:16] No, I mean, you got to work out that with God, I guess. As long as he's cool with it. What does it matter what I care or think or say?

Speaker 2:
[04:27] Yeah. So going back, a big draw for you, since we're here right in front of each other now, and we won't rehash everything from breakfast yesterday. But a big draw for you to Gospel Community Church was, what you would say is the transparency or the authenticity or something like that. Is that what drew you in?

Speaker 1:
[04:53] Yeah. I mean, I like, like I said, I like people who...

Speaker 2:
[04:56] I mean, our dating relationships started at the pancake house.

Speaker 1:
[05:00] Right. Yeah. Like years ago, you mean?

Speaker 2:
[05:02] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:03] Yeah. You came out...

Speaker 2:
[05:03] And then you had your wife come and fill out the church for herself.

Speaker 1:
[05:06] What I said was, you know, you talked to me about your church, and I don't know if you wanted me to go or invited me or something like that. But I'm like, that's my wife saying, I'll get her on it. So then you kind of grilled me yesterday about why is it your wife, why is it your wife's thing? And I'm like, because I'm too flawed. I mean, I say I can pretend with the best of them, right? I'm, I can be fake as shit. But as I told you yesterday, I'm the one who has to look myself in the mirror. And no matter you said, well, you're here at church every Sunday, not every Sunday, but I try to go when I'm in town, I always go and I'm there. I read some script, I don't read it enough, but read some scriptures, go to church, do my thing. So it seems like on the surface that doing pretty good. And then I look myself in the mirror. And then I have to be like, you are fake. You are, cause I know when I get mad at somebody driving and I'm like, want them to crash or I want to make them crash. Or, you know, you see a cute girl, you notice a cute girl and you're like, what is wrong with me? So I'm the person who has to look myself in the mirror. So it's like, I'm always torn between how I should be and how I am.

Speaker 2:
[06:26] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So there's a lot there.

Speaker 1:
[06:30] Yeah, there is.

Speaker 2:
[06:31] Yeah. So since you invited a pastor on your podcast and you're a pastor, which means I get to talk about Jesus and the Gospel. And so I'll reiterate what I said yesterday.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[09:10] I'll say this, I think there's a massive misconception of what the message of Christianity is. Massive, and I know it sounds dramatic to say massive, but I think it's true. I think oftentimes you'll ask people, hey, how's your faith or how's your walk or something like that? And people commonly respond with, man, I'm trying hard, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. And the message of Christianity isn't I'm trying hard, it's I'm trusting, I'm believing, I'm resting in the sufficiency of what Christ has done. And so the world says, well, Nike says, you can do it. Christianity starts with something completely opposite. It says, you can't do it. You can't live a good enough life. All have fallen short. All have missed the mark. And so to me, that's a freeing starting point, because that's honest. And then you read the Bible and you see people that are just absolute screw ups. Like I'm drawn to the Bible because I read it and I'm like, man, God uses the Davids. Like look at David's story. And so you look at stories like that and then you start to realize it, God really does save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And so it's really not about us measuring up. It's realizing right out of the gate that we don't submit a report card of B minuses. We just turn in our report card of Fs. And then we put our trust and faith in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. And he says, here's my report card of A plus, flawless, perfect, righteous, holy. And he transfers that to us. And so I think there's a massive misunderstanding, which is why I'm passionate about preaching the Gospel. I have a hard time believing that. Like I can tell you, trust in that, believe in that, believe that God's love is unwavering and doesn't falter. But I preach it so passionately because I have a hard time believing it. And we talked about this yesterday. Like I believe, help me with my unbelief. I preach the Gospel passionately because I have a hard time actually believing it. I preach the Gospel passionately because I find myself defining myself by my own failures, my own faults, my own sins. The same things you just said are all the things that I struggle with. And if any honest pastor in the world out there is being honest, the man in the pulpit is not saying, I need less of God's grace. They're in the pulpit saying, man, I'm the one who is up here declaring my massive need of God's grace. So for me, this will be good. This will be good. Yeah. So sanctification, the way that people commonly define it is the process in which we grow into Christ likeness. Here's the thing. The majority of the times that it's used in the New Testament, it's talking about a past tense event because what the New Testament is commonly saying is that you have been sanctified and that word actually means that you've been made holy and set apart. And so the problem is, and this goes back to the problem with Christianity is people confuse and conflate two doctrines, justification and sanctification. Justification says that you are legally declared righteous by your faith in Jesus Christ. So here's a simplest way to understand it and maybe a way to remember it. Justification is that you're justified and it's just as if I'd never sinned.

Speaker 1:
[12:08] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[12:09] So what happens when we're justified by God through our faith in Jesus Christ is our sins are removed. They were placed on him, God's wrath punished Christ instead of us. And then the result is our sins are removed. But it doesn't stop there. It's just as if I'd never sinned. But it's also just as if I'd always lived a holy and obedient life. Because now the life of Christ is transferred to us and that belongs us. This is why this is huge. A couple of years ago, I was meeting with a young guy. And maybe you can relate to this because I can. And he kept telling me about something that he did a couple months back. And he's like, yeah, but you don't get it. I did this. You don't get it. I did this. I'm like, hey, I don't know what you're referring to. And I don't know what you did two months ago. But if your faith is in Jesus Christ, I do know this. Then you're not defined by what you did two months ago. You're defined by what Christ did for you 2,000 years ago on the cross. And you got to stop defining yourself by your life, your actions, your failures, or even your so-called success, and start being defined by Christ's obedience, his righteousness, his perfection, his success. Because that belongs to you through faith. Like our faith, our faith in Christ, which our faith is a gift from God, too, credits Christ's righteousness to our account. So that's justification. Just as if I'd never sinned, but just as if I'd always been obedient. So what's crazy is God looks at Rick and sees a perfect obedient man. Not because I am, but because Christ was in my place. And then now what I do is I recognize that that is true, and then I start living a life consistent to who I am as a new creation in Christ and I will grow in sanctification. Here's the problem. Many people, many people base their justification on their sanctification instead of their sanctification on their justification, which is even more confusing, but it means this. My security isn't how much I'm growing. My security isn't looking inside of me. My security is what Christ has done and finished for me on the cross. He said it is finished. Three days later, he rose from the grave. He proved that is true. And so I, as a man, no longer have to rest and trust in the life that I lived in my own actions, which that's not a cop out, but it's really freeing because I believe the thing that liberates men and actually what creates fearless men is men who are loved and men who are loved by God infantly that are sons of God that are secure in that. And now, and they now realize I don't need to prove myself to the rest of the world. Cam, I did that for years. I tried to do everything on the outside to fix everything that was broken on the inside. And that's, I think that's an exhausting route that men fall prey to.

Speaker 1:
[14:46] Yeah, a lot of them, most of them.

Speaker 2:
[14:48] I mean, you can't relate probably. I mean, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:51] Yeah, no, it's a, well, so when did, I mean, when did you know? When did, like, how did this faith start with you? And it's just like, when did you, when did you know?

Speaker 2:
[15:01] It's messy. It doesn't look like, it doesn't look like how I hear people tell their stories.

Speaker 1:
[15:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:07] Or like even my mamma and my papa, they would say, when were you saved?

Speaker 1:
[15:13] Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:13] Like you got to have in a journal somewhere, like, what was the date?

Speaker 1:
[15:17] Or your testimony. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:19] Yeah, and I'm like, man, I don't have a specific date. I was 23 years old, and it was a rough night. And I woke up and I said, God, I'm going to try you out. I don't know what that looks like, but please help me. That was my prayer, not the sinner's prayer, not what you're. And then, so I went and got plugged into a church and then came to realize that I am a man who has fallen short. I am a sinner in need of God's grace and put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ to be the one to pay for those and save me and whatnot. And I'm getting baptized, getting plugged into a church, but then my MMA career took me down to Reno. So all that happened in Roseburg, but yeah, I was 23 and it's pretty gray. Like I don't have that.

Speaker 1:
[16:03] Yeah. Just defining clear.

Speaker 2:
[16:05] Defining. And I wish I did because some people do. And then it makes me go, man, what's wrong with me? At times it's made me question whether I am saved because I don't have that date. Like some people do.

Speaker 1:
[16:15] Cause you want the all powerful God to show you something.

Speaker 2:
[16:19] Yeah, I wasn't bawling. It wasn't like this. There wasn't this heightened emotion and all this stuff. Like I hear people say they just had to pull their car over the side of the road. They were crying so hard and everything like that. It wasn't like that. I didn't have that. And then, yeah, I think more and more. I went from being incredibly rebellious to incredibly religious overnight. And now I was like, all right, now I need to prove God. He didn't make a mistake. And so then I got exhausted from doing that. I was like, all right, I'm going to show God that I'm legit. And I started to believe the lie that what I can do is I can maintain God's love and earn God's love by my ongoing obedience, instead of realizing the Gospel.

Speaker 1:
[16:57] Through works, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:58] Yeah, yeah. The Gospel saved me past, present, future. It saved me. It's saving me now. It's going to save me in the future. And so, yeah, that was liberating freeing, too. But yeah, not until I was 23 and not a typical, I walked the aisle or something like that happened.

Speaker 1:
[17:13] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[17:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[17:14] I mean, I don't know if that decision was like many of the decisions I've made in life after a crazy night, then you're like, I'm never drinking again. What was I thinking? And then the next weekend, guess what I'm doing?

Speaker 2:
[17:27] I've had lots of those, too. So this one was different.

Speaker 1:
[17:30] Like that at 23, though, did you have you never had a back step since then? Or has it been smooth sailing?

Speaker 2:
[17:39] Yeah, that's a good question. In a lot of ways, I cut a lot of stuff out of my life immediately because I knew I didn't have any sort of willpower over those things. And so like I quit drinking for years. Plus I was fighting at that time and it's just not, you know, can do so with the diet and whatnot. But yeah, no, I would say that, and I tell this to our church family all the time, when we put our trust and faith in Jesus, we are a saint. That means that we are set apart, we are made holy. And I would say I'm a saint who struggles with sin. I'm not a sinner trying to become a saint. And so maybe this will answer the question a little bit more, is I would say I daily wrestle and struggle with sin. I daily, weekly, monthly wrestle with lust. And the things that you just mentioned, I had an addictive personality on the other side of Christ. I still have an addictive personality. I just sometimes change what I'm addicted to. I go through seasons of my life where I have to pull back on alcohol because I'm realizing that it's not a gift in this season of life. It's becoming my God. I'm not mastering it. It's mastering me. And so if you're saying, is it buttoned up, polished, prim and pretty? I think you know. I think you know it's not. I think it's a grind.

Speaker 1:
[18:58] Well, that's a relief for me. I mean, for people like me, because people from the outside in might say, oh man, how nice would that be? Just never have this weighing on you. Like never have the pressure of being a human, a flawed human weighing on you, but you do. And we can't beat it on our own, I think is the whole point to this.

Speaker 2:
[19:20] Yeah, man, I'll sit down. It's one of my favorite places in town, Little Big Burger. But I sit down in Little Big Burger with one of my friends and former elders.

Speaker 1:
[19:28] You love fries, it looks like.

Speaker 2:
[19:30] Dude, I love fries. I love truffle fries.

Speaker 1:
[19:33] Thick kid.

Speaker 2:
[19:36] That's how you win bench press competitions, Cam.

Speaker 1:
[19:38] I know. Power, baby.

Speaker 2:
[19:40] I'm at Clydesdale, though. I'm not going to tell you what my mile pace was today. Six? Five? Six? I'm at Clydesdale. Six. That's hilarious. 745.

Speaker 1:
[19:50] Not bad. Not bad. I mean, you're going to gas out after round two and then just get the shit beat out of you around three.

Speaker 2:
[19:58] I think I had another mile on me at that pace. That's probably about it. Yeah, no, but I was sitting down with my friend, former elder Ronnie, and man, he's battled with pornography like his entire life. Just a radical testimony and story. And I was sitting down with him and still as a Christian, this is a battle. I think that's the key word and what people maybe miss and understand is the battle and the wrestle is a good thing. Like that's the sign of the spirit working inside of you when you are battling and resisting because there are things that I used to not battle and not resist. I just gave way to them. But I asked Ronnie, I said, hey, if I gave you a pill right now and said, if you swallowed this pill, you'll never struggle with pornography again or with less. Would you swallow the pill? And he said, no. And I was like, what? And he said, here's my fear. He said, if I swallow that pill, then right now, my struggle with pornography and lust, he goes, though I hate it, keeps me buried on my knees and dependent upon Christ and the cross. And he goes, if that's removed, my bigger fear is that my pride would destroy me. And so I was like, whoa, I've never heard someone say that before. Like, I assume I'm like, if I got a pill for you, and it'll just fix everything, you would take it. But from his perspective, he's like, man, this thing is keeping me buried. I'm not saying that Ronnie was saying, or anyone saying that, yeah, just keep marching on after it. But he's saying, man, this thing keeps him humble and dependent upon the cross and upon Jesus. So.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] Yeah, that's a good perspective.

Speaker 2:
[21:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[21:33] Yeah, I hadn't thought of that or heard that either, but.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] Yeah. Yeah, because there's plenty of stuff that I wish it would go away. I also don't think it's helpful. For some guys, I think they think that the way to overcome sin by hating yourself and hating sin, but that's still all about, that's self-centered. It's still all about you and what you're doing. And I think what we need to point people to is stop looking at yourself and start looking at Christ. And so you're still just focused on hating yourself and wallowing in your sin and self-hatred and self-loathing and stuff like that, but that's still not loving Christ and that's still not being satisfied in Christ's love for you. And so I want to redirect people from, hey, yeah, put your sin to death, but just hating it isn't going to do that. What actually is, is actually feeding on how amazing Christ is, what he's done, what he's paid for, what he's purchased for you, who you are, how God sees you, how he loves you. Yeah, I think men who are the most secure, fierce, and whatever they do, I'll tie this into fighting. I started fighting as a non-Christian and I was juiced out of my mind. So backstory, grew up in a... Sometimes when guys say, they're like, man, I grew up in a really rough household. My dad was meeting me. I think I have a lot. I have a hard time with that because I know what my household looks like and I know what my relationship with my dad looked like. So having a spanking might have been traumatizing for you, but having a bloody nose and black eyes is much different. So grow up in this, grow up by just a rough nose, tough dad, I was telling you yesterday, my dad's six, five, 300 pounds. I see my dad literally get more fights than anyone else. I mean, my dad made the paper in Roseburg. I've seen him knock out people's teeth with a mag flashlight before. So just a fierce, fierce guy. So grow up in this family and I'm tiny, tiny. I'm skinny, I'm little, I think I felt like I hit puberty when I was 18. So late bloomer, just super insecure. And the way I deal with that is what everyone does is what's wrong on the inside. We think we're going to fix it by doing something on the outside. And so I take three trips down to Tijuana over the next three years, rested two out of those three, taken to see the judge once. Which by the way, they gave me all of my stuff back every time.

Speaker 1:
[24:04] That was nice.

Speaker 2:
[24:04] Yeah, it was really nice. They even told me the best way to get out of town.

Speaker 1:
[24:07] That's how you usually hear those stories. No.

Speaker 2:
[24:10] Any time we go to Mexico now, if we're on vacation, I'm so nervous. My wife's like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, they can arrest you any time. So yeah, I decided I'm going to get on ROIDs and fix all that I don't like about me. I was an angry kid, got into fighting.

Speaker 1:
[24:28] Yeah, steroids will help.

Speaker 2:
[24:29] Steroids will help, yeah. My first fight, the majority of my professional career was at 170, but my first amateur fight was at 205. Yeah, and they didn't test. So I was like, this is, yeah. I felt, I remember looking across, I was like, this poor guy. He's got like 21 years of just scars and anger and just wrath and bitterness built up, just coming at him. But my amateur career, I was doing that and taking steroids. And then I quit, not because of Jesus. I wasn't a Christian at this point or anything like that. I just decided, I didn't want people to say anything that Rick did. It was because of steroids.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[27:32] So, but I lost and I was so wrecked by losing that I stayed in the locker room until everyone at the fights left, till the entire place was empty. Because I couldn't face people as like I built up my reputation or identity of being tough. And then my sister at the time, she goes, she goes, Dad told me he got beat up by like some skinny, scrawny guy. I got introduced to Jiu Jitsu. I just thought you could just throw haymakers and win fights. And then some skinny scrawny dude put me in a triangle choke. People thought I was winning because I was just hammer fisting him. And then all of a sudden, yeah, you're tapping, tapping. The thing that changed is that finished my amateur career, started my professional career. That took me down to Reno. And what changed is this. I felt a tremendous amount of freedom when I understood that my identity was no longer in being a fighter and trying to prove myself, but my identity was given to me as a free gift by God. So my identity was that I'm a son of God who's infinitely loved and nothing or no one could possibly change that or take away that. You've been around a church long enough. I ask my kids almost every night, why does dad love you? And they say, because I'm your son or because I'm your daughter. So the essence of my love is connected to that relational reality. Every man needs to hear that because it's freeing. Because now for the first time, I remember just running out to the ring with excitement. I was like, for the first time, I don't feel the weight of whatever happens to me in there is going to define me to my core. And I don't know how to face people. I'm a son of God who gets to go in there, lay it all down, but it's not going to wreck me if I lose. I'll be able to face people and those types of things. And so, yes, that was the most freeing and most powerful thing to me, which I tell my kids, I'm like, man, you want to see who's free and fierce in any sport or whatever? Those that are loved.

Speaker 1:
[29:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[29:22] And so, yeah, that's what I'm passionate about.

Speaker 1:
[29:26] I think that, I mean, men are judged on accomplishments and worth. You know, like, that's how they're worth is like, what can you offer? What can you provide? What can you do? So it's like, we talk about this works and it's like, it's not what you do, but we are society tells us for a man. I mean, there's that meme that says the only thing that gets unconditional love is women and dogs. Men hit the oil rig.

Speaker 2:
[29:51] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] You know, get to work.

Speaker 2:
[29:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:53] It's like, so it's really hard for a lot of people. Like you had that that moment or that clarity or that change, but a lot of guys are still fighting with, I gotta prove myself.

Speaker 2:
[30:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:04] Because everyone's judging me. It's like, you go to work and you're like, oh, what's your job? Oh, they pay, how much they pay there? You know, so now they're just like, oh, how much do I make? What's my salary? What kind of car do you drive? You know, it's like, we're always, and we put ourselves in those positions, and then we're like dancing with the devil, like trying to always outdo this guy or that guy or prove to this girl that you're better. It's like, it's tough. So is the, I mean, it's more than tough. It's exhausting. And is the answer faith? Faith and just...

Speaker 2:
[30:43] Yeah, you want me to get you a couch? This sounds like it's gonna be good, man. You can lay down.

Speaker 1:
[30:46] No, I'm just like, it's just a hard...

Speaker 2:
[30:48] I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. I think everything is coming at men inside the world saying you need to prove yourself. You need to work hard. And there's some aspects of that where I would say, yeah. Because in some ways, I think men are running in the opposite direction, even from their God created design on some of those things. What I would say though is that since you're a runner, I'll use this analogy.

Speaker 1:
[31:17] I'm a bow hunter.

Speaker 2:
[31:18] Okay. So am I, Cam, there's a difference between you and me is that you have animals hanging on your wall.

Speaker 1:
[31:27] So you got camo.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] I'm a bow hiker. I do have camo. Yeah. Is if two guys line up on a race or line up to run a marathon, think about this. If the one guy steps up there and says, Hey man, everything in my life is riding on this moment. Like if I don't win this race, if I don't perform well, if I don't get first place, if I don't accomplish it, like I lose this, this, this, and this, right? And then another guy steps up and he's getting ready to race and he's kind of, I don't know, bouncing around, whatever you guys do before you get ready for a race.

Speaker 1:
[32:10] Yeah, adjust a jock strap, stuff like that.

Speaker 2:
[32:12] Yeah. Oh, and there's a pep in a step. If that second runner gets up and knows this, that at the end of the day, that his life isn't resting and trusting in the race that he runs, but in someone else who ran a perfect race 2,000 years ago, and that what someone ultimately needs is not how they can prove themselves externally, but they need to be proven before God and only Christ can do that. I do believe that in the depths of who you are, like every man's soul needs that. Like I think men are trying to prove themselves and show something. And at the end of the day, there is this freedom in saying, hey, I don't have to prove myself. And again, I'm not defined by what I do or don't do. Christ proved me worthy through his life, and I'm defined by his actions, not my own. Like Christ ran the perfect race and that race belongs to me. The ultimate thing that Cam needs, that every man needs, is they need the approval and love of God. Whether men want to admit that or not, it's like we're afraid to say that, but that's what men need. And so I think so much stuff that we're trying to do is trying to appease the world or prove ourselves, but to who? Because I think the ultimate person we need to be proven to is God, and someone else takes care of that, his name is Jesus. And so I do think that's freeing, and men need to hear that. I don't think it means that men just roll over and become lazy and apathetic though.

Speaker 1:
[33:40] Yeah, because as you're saying that, because I'm the contrarian, I'm always like, oh, it sounds like an excuse to be weak. It's what I just heard. But so what I would say to that is like, I love that. And it's like mentally and spiritually, it makes perfect sense. But if the guy who maybe he doesn't believe in anything, he's chasing his own ego, but he worked his ass off. He put in the hard training. He's been sacrificing for years. And this guy goes to church every Sunday. He knows he doesn't have to do it for anybody, but he didn't train. He's gonna get his ass kicked. I don't care who's in his corner. So like, I can, I look, I know what you're saying. And I'm like, I'm thinking about, yeah, that's a spiritual world, but I'm talking about competition, baby. So the best, the best would be you're saved, unyielding faith and you worked your ass off.

Speaker 2:
[34:40] Yeah. So let me give you this.

Speaker 1:
[34:43] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[34:43] First Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul says this, verse 10. He says, by the grace of God, I am what I am, but his grace to me was not in vain. In fact, I worked harder than anyone else. Then he goes on to say, but it wasn't I, it was God's grace that did it in me. And so again, I would say, do all, Cam, you're sitting in front of someone who's one of the most competitive people in the world. You can ask my wife that, and it caused fights when we were dating. And so our counselor told us to stop doing competitive things. I don't let my kids win. One of my daughters is just like me, she'll flip over a monopoly or checkers board and stuff like that. We're just, we're sore losers. And I'm even, I'm more of a sore winner. So I do victory laps around my house. Like it's not, it's not pleasant. But at the end of the day, the difference is still this work hard or whatever you do. And I was told this once by Brandon Slate, he was a freestyle gold medalist wrestler. And I was struggling because some, some Christians from the Christian community were coming toward me while as a Christian saying, Hey, you can't keep fighting. Like you can't punch someone in the face. Like you can't do all this. You know? And so I was getting rattled because I was like, you know? And so he was like, Hey, Rick, whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. He's like every double leg I take every single leg. He's like, I'm giving it 110% for the glory of God. But at the end of the day, Brandon Slade doesn't have to walk off the mat and feel like he's an utter failure in life unless the only thing that's giving him his identity is his wrestling ability. And if the only thing that's giving Cam, you know, his identity in life is a bow hunter. You know, you and I both know that's a horrible identity because bow hunting has the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And you're after you can drive home empty-handed and feeling like a complete failure. And so it's not that you stop trying. It's not that you give up. It's not that you don't put in the effort. It's just that your whole motivation changes. You're fueled for the motivation changes, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:
[36:39] Yeah, no, it does. It's just, yeah, it's hard just, I guess, breaking that down in the competition aspect. And regular life is super easy. We always, you know, and there's that, it's not even like in, I don't think it's in the Bible, but maybe it's the 10th Commandment, but it's like treat others the way you like to be treated, blah, blah, blah, all that sounds great. Sounds great. That's not competition.

Speaker 2:
[37:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[37:03] But so anyway, that's where, because like to compete for me, I want to hate everyone and crush everyone. And like that doesn't seem very Christian like.

Speaker 2:
[37:16] Yeah. Yeah. Define what you mean by that. Like when you are competing against someone.

Speaker 1:
[37:24] I just want to win.

Speaker 2:
[37:26] You just want to win.

Speaker 1:
[37:26] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:27] Yeah. Do you think there's something intrinsically wrong or evil with the desire?

Speaker 1:
[37:33] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[37:38] Not with you, but with the desire to win.

Speaker 1:
[37:40] I think it's a validation of the hard work you put in. You want to prove to yourself and to others that everybody sees, social media, everybody sees the shit everybody does every day. It's just like, why are you doing that? You suck at running. So you want to be like, no, I'm doing all this work and look, see what happened? Okay. So give me a like on there. And I think it's just, yeah. So I think it's that. I think it's like you want to be acknowledged. And that's another thing men want to be acknowledged and respected. And so sometimes these works, these accomplishments give us that.

Speaker 2:
[38:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:14] And it's hard to get that just like, because to get that in a regular, like maybe a regular Christian, I don't even know what Christian life is, but a regular, like whatever normal people do, which I have no idea. I always said I never wanted a regular life. But if you're just talking to a normal guy from down the street, whatever they talk about, I have no idea. I don't even want to be involved in this conversation. But how do you earn respect in that situation? I guess it's just being intelligent, putting things in perspective, maybe listening, offering advice, I guess, right?

Speaker 2:
[38:47] Yes. So you're saying for the average Joe that's walking just down the street.

Speaker 1:
[38:52] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:55] Yeah. Because when I see the average Joe walking down the street, the first thing I'm thinking is not respect.

Speaker 2:
[39:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[39:03] So like that's where I, you know, like I said, I'm toxic, so I'm not trying to like say this is how people should be. This is a flaw.

Speaker 2:
[39:10] Yeah. Again, I don't think you're crazy, and I don't think you're the only one that has those thoughts. And part of that, correct me if I'm wrong, is part of that is that you don't want to be average.

Speaker 1:
[39:22] No. Yeah. That's a failure.

Speaker 2:
[39:24] Yeah. It's kind of like Achilles line in Troy. He wants to be remembered, like he's willing to go fight a battle because he wants his name remembered.

Speaker 1:
[39:35] I think that, like, I remember Roy had this, my friend, you know, most people know who died in 2015, but we were up on a bear hunt, I think the year before, maybe in 2012, hunting brown bear, and I did this little video of him, and he said that hunting was his missions field. He said, because hunting is a hard environment, it's a tough crowd, basically, and guys just aren't gonna listen to you for no reason. You have to give them a reason. So he said, God blessed him with his hunting talents to give him a reason for other men to listen to him. Like he'd go and speak at Montana Bow Hunters Association thing, do a seminar, or even Alaska. I spoke in Alaska and I'm like, why are these guys listening to me? I'm being tough down in lower 48 is not being tough in Alaska. Alaska is a whole nother level. So, but through hunting, you can kind of like, even the toughest guys will be like, okay, he's killed some good bear, maybe some good bulls. We'll see what he has to say. But without that, so anyway, Roy would say that hunting gave him that credibility to where he could, you know, preach to people essentially, not preach, but like to share his journey and they would listen.

Speaker 2:
[40:45] And I would say yes and amen in the same way that when I would receive pushback for being a fighter in that community, I said, do you think, realistically, that some average Joe off the street or someone who is in choir or something like that is going to be able to step into these men's life and be able to share the Gospel with them? Like, do you think that they're gonna respect them? And I would say no. There's a level of respect because of the blood, sweat and tears. And so in the same way for him, which is why I believe that Christians need to be deep in their mission field, but not just that. This is where I'm gonna agree with you. And maybe this will be the only time, Cam. So, so good. I'm excited. Yeah. Is that-

Speaker 1:
[41:28] Let's equip this.

Speaker 2:
[41:30] Yeah. Make this the main thing. Is it, it pisses me off when anyone in any field isn't striving to be the best that they can be in whatever they do. So this is, this is gonna sound so arrogant. So hear me out. I literally have told people before that I'm trying to be the best preacher in the world, which means I'm applying myself. I'm reading, I'm studying, I'm praying for God to grow me in the gift of preaching. Do I think that I'll accomplish it? Probably not. But it's not from a lack of effort or trying to be that. And I would say if you are a personal trainer, that you should strive to be the best possible trainer in the world. And I would say if you're a bow hunter, you should strive to be the best. Whatever your job or profession is, I believe because we are Christian, that whatever we eat or drink or whatever we do, we're supposed to do it for the glory of God. And so I want to do whatever it is that I do to 100% to try to be the best at it, while at the same time knowing that even if I don't arrive at that, it's not going to cripple me. And I think that's the big thing that like men do need to hear is that we should be striving like that. We should be living like that. We should be giving it our all. But I think the freedom is this, is that even if I were to become the best preacher in the world, and even if you and Truett, which I do, I think you guys will accomplish it. I think you guys become the fastest father and son in the world. So at least your dreams are practical for you, right? So being the best preacher in the world is probably not. So but even if I accomplish that, Cam, what I'm saying is I don't believe it's going to satisfy what my soul ultimately needs. And it's like plugging in a bunch of different wires. We have a bunch of wires in our house and there's like USB, USB-C and all this stuff that is hard for me to keep track of. So my wife puts all the cables in a drawer, but it's like trying to just wire in and put in a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 1:
[43:23] Let's see if this works.

Speaker 2:
[43:24] Yes, see if this works. But at the end of the day, I believe our souls were created to be wired back into our relationship with God to have his approval, and I believe that's what men are longing for. And so I think even the working hard and our own attempts at righteousness and all that stuff is I think us trying to do what only Christ can do, and that's get us back into the relationship that we need to be in. Otherwise, I do think everything else in this world is going to leave us dissatisfied. I mean, look at the amount of men who have accomplished huge things. Tom Brady, I don't know if you ever saw that interview, but it was like after the fifth Super Bowl or something like that, he was like, yeah, there's something inside of me that's still missing. And I'm like, hey, I know what that is. You were created by God, and you were created to be in a relationship form and nothing, it's like the wires. Nothing else is going to line up until you're back into this relationship that you were created to be in. And the only way back, as Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth and life is through faith in Jesus Christ and that, but because of that, I believe that men can enter into their careers or their hobbies without being crippled by them. But again, if your hobby or career is gonna be the thing that defines you and you suck at it, I would say, I think I was a lot better fighter. This is a humble brag. I think I was a lot better fighter than the opportunities I would have given. I was just a lot less of a tool by the time I became a Christian. I was still pretty toolish. My wife can tell you that, but just less. I wish I would have applied for the, tried out for the Ultimate Fighter before I was a Christian because I think they would have loved me then. But man, there's parts of me that, like there's part of my fight career is like, maybe I don't talk about it as much because I never accomplished what I wanted to in that and I hate that. Like I wanted to fight for the UFC. When I was 10, I wanted to play Major League Baseball. My papaw was like, hey, I don't see that working out for you. At 10, he was like, what's your backup plan? I'm like, I'm 10.

Speaker 1:
[45:17] Really?

Speaker 2:
[45:18] Yeah, that was an honest conversation.

Speaker 1:
[45:19] You're gonna shit on my dreams already?

Speaker 2:
[45:21] Yeah, 10. I had a course correct my entire life.

Speaker 1:
[45:24] I could be president. It could be an astronaut.

Speaker 2:
[45:26] No, my papaw's brutal. He's like, I don't see that working out for you. What's your backup plan? But yeah, all those things to say, it's like, yeah, the things that I was embarrassed by, and I've shared this from the pulpit before, but man, there's things about my story. There's things about my family. There's things about all sorts of stuff. Just being a dropout and not even that, but being at alternative schools and then not making it at alternative schools. Yeah. Yeah. Like all sorts of stuff. Having a bad credit score when I married my wife, like all that's just so much stuff that I was embarrassed by. But my attempt was, I'm going to try everything I can on the outside to achieve, get success, fix whatever's wrong. But I'm trying to do external stuff to fix it and a problem that's broken on the inside and a problem that I believe that only can be fixed by Christ in the Gospel. So yeah.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[49:46] Cam, I used to hate my story though, man. I was embarrassed.

Speaker 1:
[49:50] Of course, I mean, hey, me too.

Speaker 2:
[49:51] And there's still aspects of it. My whole thought life, you're saying the guy in the parking lot, when someone flips me off, there's still a part of me that just wants to catch up to him and snap their finger. There's still a part of me of whatever drugs I didn't try, my curiosity runs wild. And I'm like, I wonder what that one would have been like. And if I'm missing out on something, so man, there's still a lot of that stuff that's there, that's alive and inside of me. But yeah, I'm like, there's still that aspect of like the brokenness. Though I'm perfect in God's eyes, the reality is that I'm still imperfect on this side of eternity. I'm going to remain that way until Christ returns. But yeah, I think, yeah, just to clarify, I hated my story. I was embarrassed of it. And I ran from it. I think the thing that allowed me to come out from hiding was the freedom of knowing who I am as a child of God, knowing that I'm no longer defined by my story. In fact, man, I'm grateful for my story now, which might sound crazy to you and it might sound crazy to other people, but I'm glad there's a lot of brokenness. I give my friends a hard time that had really loving dads. I'm like, yeah, it must have been really tough having a dad tell you that he's proud of you all the time. But I'm grateful for those things because I think it helps me to relate to people and be able to empathize with people that are like, that are willing to be honest, that are battling their addictions and battling whatever they're going through. And again, I think everyone is, whether they're willing to admit it or not.

Speaker 1:
[51:17] Yeah, no, I totally get that. And I mean, my mom has apologized to me for my childhood. And I said, I go, mom, I'm glad. I'm glad it was so shitty because that's who I am now. It has made me who I am. I might be the biggest pussy in the world with the dad, like, champ, we're so proud of you. You can do anything. That's okay. You don't go to practice. Let's watch TV. That, you know, so I would much rather have the broken family and the alcoholism and all that.

Speaker 2:
[51:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[51:51] Any day of the week. So yeah, that makes sense. But also what makes sense is, you know, you're going back to Roseburg, your hometown where you were screw up. It's like, when I go out to my hometown, I still feel like I was the drunk, crashing trucks, just smart ass all the time. Wasn't beating people up, but getting beat up. Like punched in the eye and shit at parties. So it's embarrassing to go back to, cause now we're different people, but hometowns never forget, dude. You can't be a star in your hometown.

Speaker 2:
[52:25] Yeah, I mean, it's biblical as prophets not welcoming his own in his hometown. I think that's part of the thing though, Cam too, is it's good for you to hear, and I think it's good for other men to hear. I think that terrifies them about, you know, being sold out for Jesus or going all in is that, man, there's going to be these expectations that your whole life is going to like turn around in a night, and if it's not that everyone is going to be disappointed in you and is going to be frustrated with you and it's just that's not a reality, right? It's a process. It's a grind. Sometimes it's two steps forward and five steps backward, and that's, I think, a picture of what it looks like to wrestle with the Christian life. So I think you need to hear that. I think other men need to hear that is that it's almost like, man, if I'm following Christ, are all these people gonna think that this is how overnight I'm gonna sound this way, be changed this way and all this stuff. And I'm telling you, I've been a Christian now for almost 20 years, man, I'm still wrestling and I'm wrestling with those things. Like, I want to get out of my car, out of my truck.

Speaker 1:
[53:35] Yeah, your little, what is that little car?

Speaker 2:
[53:37] I want to get out of my Prius.

Speaker 1:
[53:38] Yeah, your Prius.

Speaker 2:
[53:40] When guys have their pants below their ass, like sagging them and crossing a crosswalk so slow, Cam, it is like, it's everything inside of me just wants to jump out of the truck and just grab them by their pants and just get them going. And so I'm just saying there has to be room and space within our church families for people to be broken and wrestling in this whole messy process because that's what it's gonna be. I think it's a lot messier than what people realize. I think it's a lot messier than maybe then people want to admit. I believe the gospel is going to save you and take you right where you are. You don't have to clean yourself up and it's gonna transform your life. But that process is messy and oftentimes slow. And the beautiful thing is God's not gonna be more committed to a person 20 years from now when they look more like Jesus than he was in the moment when he first saved them. Because his love is never gonna change, it's not gonna grow, it's not gonna... Yeah, I explain God's love like this, like a fire. On our days we're crushing it, it's not pouring gas on God's fire. On the days when we're dropping the ball, it's not pouring water and cooling it off. It burns hot all the time. And it's because of his decision, his choice, his faithfulness, his goodness and his grace. And because of what his son has done, there's like, we don't, I mean, so people need to know and hear that it's gonna be bumpy, it's gonna be messy, it's not gonna be buttoned up. I think that's why you and some other people are like, are drawn to our church family. Like that dude's crazy, he's squirrely, but he's crazy about Jesus. There's a bunch of broken, messy people here and it's not buttoned up, it's not pretty. And I think that's what it's going to practically look like. And then I think we're afraid that my mess is gonna scare you away and it's gonna scare other people away. And I've been terrified of that too, which is why I hid my story for so long. And I've used this example for I was watching 8 Mile and at the end of it, they do the rap off and they're like, M&M goes first. I was like, it was just like an eye opening moment for me. And I'm not saying go watch, since it's not this past thing, go watch 8 Mile. It's just a great story of good morals. But I love this rap off, but this is what I love. He gets up there and says, that's right, I am white trash. My best friend is Cheddar Bob, who shot himself in the leg. I did grow up in trailer park and all this stuff. But then he says, he says, go ahead and tell these people something that they don't know about me. And he tosses the mic. Cam, that was like a light bulb moment for me where I was like, I felt like the enemy for so long had used so much of what I was embarrassed and ashamed of to just be like, man, if you tell people that, if you tell people that. And even in the pulpit, when I share sin and brokenness, I'm like, if you tell people that, you tell people that they're going to be right out the door. They're never coming back. But what I've realized, man, is that for the most part, people aren't afraid of our messiness. What they hate and what is it turn off is when we pretend that it's not there, like you're saying. And then I think people can sniff that out. And they're going, nah, I'm not buying it, man. Nice try. So yeah.

Speaker 1:
[56:43] Do you still, I mean, I know, cause I just know me so I can talk about my screwed up brain. I still don't share all my everything. You know what I mean? I still kind of water it down a little bit. Like I say, I was a screw up, but I still don't. It's still too much to do. I'm like, no, you got, okay. You'd give me a little grace on something. Yeah. Oh yeah. You were young. But if you knew everything, so I still don't, I've never even told him, I've never been honest my whole life, 100% honest.

Speaker 2:
[57:22] Well, you just were.

Speaker 1:
[57:23] Well, not really. I didn't say anything.

Speaker 2:
[57:25] Well, you just said that honestly you've never been honest. I felt like that's a pretty honest statement. So maybe that's the first time we should mark that down.

Speaker 1:
[57:32] But it's hard because you still want to protect yourself.

Speaker 2:
[57:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[57:39] Because what happens is people say, oh no, you're fine here. Here's a little rope and you take a little rope and you're like, I can't hurt myself with this much rope. But if somebody gives you all the rope, like, oh, I'm gonna hang myself now. And so you still kind of like save a little bit of the worst details. I do anyway, but that's a side note.

Speaker 2:
[58:00] I think it's good though. But yeah, so let me ask this question, why?

Speaker 1:
[58:04] I don't know. I think it's just because, I mean, I feel like, I felt like, there's that whole stupid, what is it? God, what is it? What's that? Not the fraud thing.

Speaker 2:
[58:25] The fraud thing?

Speaker 1:
[58:26] Yeah, well, you feel like a fraud, but you're-

Speaker 2:
[58:29] Oh, like an imposter syndrome?

Speaker 1:
[58:31] Yeah, so there's that. So it's like the imposter syndrome thing, where I've always felt like, if people really knew how my brain worked, I would be, they'd be like, this guy's a mess. And so I think there's still like that protecting a little, or worried too much about like, I'll give them a little just to where I'm unrelatable, but-

Speaker 2:
[58:54] So what you're saying is it's real dark up there. I'll tell you a little bit about the shades of it, but I'm not gonna let you see how dark it really is. And then what would be the fear of the outcome that if you saw that, you would be like, my goodness, this guy is incredibly screwed up.

Speaker 1:
[59:10] Yeah, and it's just like, you know, because there's this whole thing where I get celebrated for like, oh, I've, you know, chased these goals and I had this full time job and it, you know, it didn't matter. I did. But what I have to deal with is how hard I was on the kids because I was trying to do too much. I was too tired. I was pissed off all the time. I would, you know, take them to the movie, leave them in the movie, go on a run, because I had to get my miles in, come back for like a few minutes of the movie. It's just like, and I share that stuff, but there's so many other things where I was just like so selfish to just be like, no, I'm going to be the best in the world at what I do. I don't give a f*** about anyone else. That doesn't feel good.

Speaker 2:
[59:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:50] Because that would include my family.

Speaker 2:
[59:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:53] Let alone it's, it's, it was easy for me to say I didn't care about a guy who is competition. But how could I steal from my steal me for my family? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[60:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:05] To chase. So I haven't even, and there's a million different examples that I'm embarrassed.

Speaker 2:
[60:12] Was that a hypothetical that you took your kids to the movies and then left and went for a run? Okay. I've never heard you share that or talk about that. So, so you share that because why? Because that's something where you feel embarrassed about, or you look at that and go, man, that was selfish.

Speaker 1:
[60:27] I can't even, I, the thing, it feels selfish that I couldn't even turn it off to enjoy a movie with my kids.

Speaker 2:
[60:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[60:33] I still had to do my thing, get my miles in. So took them to Regal, ran around Alton Baker and did all that, got my miles in. And it's just like, yeah. So I just feel guilty about putting my own goals above, you know, and it feels weird now cause I get celebrated because true is successful. Tarrant does good. Tanner's a beast. But I'm like, man, yeah. It just doesn't feel like, like I, I did the best I could do.

Speaker 2:
[61:07] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[61:08] And, and so I feel like I feel fake.

Speaker 2:
[61:11] Yeah. Yeah. Man, I'm, I'm piecing all this together as you talk, but, so you feel fake because you're praised for all that you do and you're celebrated for that. And then even your kids have some pretty incredible success because of that. But at the end of the day, you're recognizing, man, a lot of what I did was from my own selfish ambition.

Speaker 1:
[61:34] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:35] Is that accurate?

Speaker 1:
[61:36] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:36] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[61:36] Yeah. And I would just say, I'm providing for my family. I'm showing my kids what hard work me does and can result in and they can do whatever. So I was like, I would twist it to, to be like, oh, this is what I should be doing.

Speaker 2:
[61:51] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[61:52] But it was just me justifying it.

Speaker 2:
[61:54] Yeah. Yeah. Well, do you recognize that or see it is a good thing that you even can say, man, I don't feel like that was right. Like, do you think that's a good thing for you to be able to recognize, hey, I think that was selfish and, and I don't feel good about that because I would say, I think it's a cop out when men say my job is to provide and that put, that means putting food on the table. I would say that's part of it. And that's part of what it is to be a father, but it's also being present too. And so like, are you saying, I mean, I think it's a good thing to say and recognize, man, how can you admit on this podcast with I don't know how many men watching, how are you able to admit that knowing a bunch of people are listening to this, knowing that that is embarrassing, because I'm like, man, yeah. So I think that's a genuine question. Like how are you able to do that? Because again, or is what you're saying is, look, I can say that, but there's layers of it that are much deeper than that, and I won't take you there.

Speaker 1:
[62:56] I think it's, yeah, I have no problem admitting that because I get judged all the time. I mean, I get so much hate. So it's just like, I'm gonna get a little more hate. I don't even care. But what I struggle with is knowing that, talking about it, being honest, I don't know if I would do anything different. Yeah, I'm still that same psycho.

Speaker 2:
[63:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[63:22] And like, I can say, yeah, that wasn't great. But if I was back in there, I can't tell you I'd do it any different. I'd be like, no, I still don't care about anything. Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm just not even, I shouldn't even go to church is what it feels like. Because it's like, that's what I just know how I still am.

Speaker 2:
[63:40] And anyway, yeah, so you're communicating that at the core, there's still so much of the selfishness. And so to, it would feel like I'm dis, that I'm not genuine and that some people aren't genuine to be like, oh yeah, I have this whole life. But you're saying if I could run it back, there's a good chance that I would do it all over again and do it the same.

Speaker 1:
[64:03] Yeah, and that doesn't feel right.

Speaker 2:
[64:04] Yeah, yeah. Do you think you would? I'm like, like, do you really think you're like, all right, I get to hit rewind, restart, run it back? What would I actually do that or would I sit there at the movie theaters? At this point, I'm just curious. What would I sit there and watch whatever the movie is with my kids? Is it hard to say?

Speaker 1:
[64:28] I just don't think I would.

Speaker 2:
[64:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[64:31] Because it's been 58 years now of just competition every day. Every day, I have to win.

Speaker 2:
[64:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[64:42] Whether it's a screwed up thing in my head or if it's an actual race or if it's whatever, I just can't turn it off.

Speaker 2:
[64:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[64:49] Then I'm not happy.

Speaker 2:
[64:50] What happens if you get hit by a car? I'm being serious.

Speaker 1:
[64:54] I'm going to be so relieved. Just swear to God, dude. That's not what I thought you were going to say. I would love to get killed hit by a car because I'd be like, finally, relief. There's a quote in one of these books where it says, there's no rest for me in this life, perhaps in the next. So I just can't. So it was like to me getting hit, that'd be sick.

Speaker 2:
[65:18] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, you kind of took a lot of my ammunition away right there. Because I'm like, what happens if Cam gets hit by a car and he's in a wheelchair and he can no longer run at the pace he's running, then who is that Cam sitting there in the wheelchair? And yeah, I think that's a genuine question. Like who is that Cam Hanes that's sitting there that can't do anything? Because I've told people before, I'm like, man, are Gospels like a quadriplegic Gospel. So much so that what I'm saying is that if you are a quadriplegic, you can't do anything. Like look at the criminal on the cross, like you can't do anything to save yourself, to prove yourself, to show like you might want to do something. Like you can't even pick up your Bible, like someone have to hold it in front of you. And so man, that's how amazing and scandalous the Gospel is, that the quadriplegic is never going to go on a mission trip. They're never going to be able to lift their Bible to, and so, and yeah, and in a very real way, the criminal on the cross is a picture of that. It's like, man, the guy couldn't do anything, he's like the most vile criminal other than look to Jesus and trust him. So I think it's a genuine question. Who is Cam Hanes if he's sitting in a wheelchair and can't run anymore? You say thrilled, happy and stuff like that, but I don't believe that. I think you're sitting there in the wheelchair. I don't think you're going to drive Tracy insane.

Speaker 1:
[66:44] I don't want to be in a wheelchair, dude. I want to be dead. I was like, no.

Speaker 2:
[66:49] Yeah, that's not my hypothetical.

Speaker 1:
[66:51] You can't just build off of it. Let's get that car going a little quicker or something. Let's end this shit. So anyway, this isn't about me, but hey, I was going to ask you, what's the heart? So you say, I want to be the greatest pastor in the world. What does that look like? And what's the hardest part of that happening?

Speaker 2:
[67:11] Yeah. Man, what does that look like?

Speaker 1:
[67:13] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[67:16] You'll hear our shepherds, our pastors commonly say that our shepherds are going to smell like sheep. So in other words, I believe that a good pastor smells like sheep. He's not sitting in an ivory tower somewhere, but we're pastors that are, when people are in the hospital, we're going to be in the hospital praying with them. And so I think the reality is Cam, is that being a good pastor is incredibly not flashy. It's because no one ever talks, as they say, about the planes that touch ground or the trains that make it to the station. They only talk about the derailments and the crashes. And so I think there's a lot of faithful, good pastors out there, but I don't think it's flashy. I think it's pretty boring in that sense. And I think that's a good thing, because again, as you, well, I'm not saying you do know, but it wrecks, I think you've been in a church before where there's been a pastor that goes off and has an affair. I mean, that has a huge impact on a church and church family. And so I would say what it looks like is, Paul lays it out, is fight the good fight of faith. I would say keep placing my trust and faith in Jesus every moment of every day. I'm ultimately not defined also by being a pastor first and foremost. I'm a son of God who gets to pastor a church. I'm not defined by being a preacher. I mean, people give me feedback on sermon all the time, you know? Whether I want it or not. But if that ultimately defined me, then it would crush me if they're like, yeah, you're not my style, but it ultimately doesn't define me. And so I think a big part of that is being faithful to do the really small things and do those well and to fight the good fight of faith. Keep being faithful. Don't, I would say, guard my life, guard the church's doctrine. So don't chase a bunch of just weird doctrines. And as you probably do know that, there's a lot of weird beliefs and belief systems that people are running after and chasing and going down every rabbit hole there. And so I'd say that's a big portion is protect the message of the Gospel, keep preaching it, keep teaching it, keep it central, but keep planting churches. I mean, that's what, this might not make sense to most people out there. I've been asked by people from Eugene, they're like, why would you ever want to move to Roseburg? Like, that's an awful place. And I said, you realize that people in Roseburg are saying, why would you ever want to be in Eugene? Yeah, definitely. But I have a heart for rural organ. I want to see, you know these sounds for me, not in the woods, but I want to see churches in Drain, Oregon and Elkton, Oregon. I want to see churches in Myrtle Creek. I want to see churches in Rice Hill and all these little small podunk towns that don't mean anything to anyone else. They mean something to me. So every time I'm driving through these towns, I'm praying for churches to be planning and healthy churches that preach and teach the Gospel with real men that aren't afraid to be transparent, authentic and real. They aren't afraid of their brokenness that are preaching and teaching God's Word faithfully and preaching and teaching the Gospel faithfully. I want to see Southwest Oregon just saturated with healthy churches. So I think that's part of it. And I believe that before we moved here had that vision. I drew it out. It's like some weird type of vision. It was just like I told my wife, I was like, I want to see healthy churches in all these towns and I want to see them saturated. And I want to see the Gospel transform men's life. I want to see husbands get saved. And I want to see families turned upside down. And I want to see, man, I would have loved to have seen that for my dad. I would have loved that. But I want to see that. I want to see because I believe the Gospel has such saving, transforming power that because of that, then towns become transformed and communities grow in light of that. So I want to see that happen in Southwest Oregon, which again, that sounds crazy to a lot of people because they're like, who cares about those towns?

Speaker 1:
[71:00] I get that. So it's like that just that leads me to this question. You say to be the best pastor in the world. So there's some pastors or leaders of churches, I would say, oh, that means a big facility on TV, TV evangelist type thing, reaching millions, right? Because that seems like success, right? But then on, so is that the goal or, but to me, what I hear is you like the small town environment. Is that, why is that? Is that because you feel safer there? Because that's you? Or you felt ignored as a young man and needed something like that?

Speaker 2:
[71:44] And you have flipped the table on this therapy session. I like it. All right, keep going, keep going.

Speaker 1:
[71:49] Because I do, you know, in some, some respects, like I, and I told you, I think Eugene needs you just as much as Roseburg, maybe more probably, you know, we got a lot of fucking weird people here in Eugene that could use a masculine type child of God up there preaching every Sunday. But I'm not saying that the small towns don't need that because they do. And because one thing that I've noticed, like with Jelly Roll and Hanging Around and going to some of these shows and like hearing, seeing his response to people, kind of like what you're talking about with Roseburg, is like, you know, you said white trash or whatever, maybe I have, I don't, I mean, but that's me, essentially. And it's like, those are the forgotten people. The poor white people never get talked about, you know, it's always like the urban stuff or the, let's, you know, people coming from other countries for asylum, something like that. The poor white people, good luck.

Speaker 2:
[72:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[72:48] You know, and so...

Speaker 2:
[72:49] Yeah, is there a more hated group of people than a blue collar white male in today's society?

Speaker 1:
[72:56] Yeah, I mean, it's just like, so I get, to me, that makes what you want to do even more powerful and that's cool and I like it, even though I don't like you leaving here. But it's, so tell me, how do you get to become the best in the world so it's not congregation size, it's not reaching millions, what is it?

Speaker 2:
[73:16] Yeah, it's a good question. So I'll be honest here, it's to say, so you know this, our church's mission statement is to make Jesus the hero. About six months in, sometimes people think there's a lot of thought and creativity put into like the name of the church and stuff like that, but while I was filling out the form from the secretary of state, my buddy was next to me, Brandon, and it's making you put in the name of your non-prophets. I was like, we don't have a name, and he's like, what do you care about? I was like, the Gospel? He's like, what else? Community? He's like, all right, just say Gospel Community Church, and he's like, we'll come up with something cooler later. And so that's still the name. Six months into the church, someone's like, hey, it seems like whenever you preach or we have a Bible study, it seems like the main goal is to make Jesus the hero of it, and I was like, there you go. The problem is, Cam, and I think this is what you're saying that you can relate to, is that I still want to be the hero, and I want the glory, and I want the fame. So even our Mission Statement Man is something that I battle with, because in coming on this podcast, whatever it is, there's a huge part of me that I want to try to take the attention, and I want to try to be the hero, and I want the glory. So that's something I wrestle with. And so there's a part of me that wants that, what you're describing. Like I would want to, you know, I want the success. I want the fame, I want to...

Speaker 1:
[74:32] You showed me that guy yesterday, Joby, is that his name?

Speaker 2:
[74:35] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[74:36] And like he must reach a lot of people.

Speaker 2:
[74:38] Yeah, I think his church is like 20,000 people or something like that.

Speaker 1:
[74:41] And I said, you have that same, because you are good, right? And it's like, I know we got to make Jesus, well, and Marcus came up with this because it's like, you're so good at preaching. We were like, yeah, it's not about you, it's blah, blah, blah. You have these guest pastors out there, whatever preachers, whatever it is. And Marcus said, instead of just make Jesus the hero, make Rick make Jesus the hero. So I get that the problem is you're really good. And so-

Speaker 2:
[75:09] Thanks, man.

Speaker 1:
[75:10] Hearing that over and over, I don't care who you are, that's gonna impact us as men. It's gonna affect our ego. So I get that. But the fact that you're conscious of it is a good step. But yeah, it's just weird because we saw the guy yesterday with all the people and he's like a badass and he's just on fire up there for the Gospel. And I can see you doing that too because you are so good. But yeah, I was just curious.

Speaker 2:
[75:35] I got to bulk up a little bit more though.

Speaker 1:
[75:37] Yeah, that guy's jacked.

Speaker 2:
[75:39] I might need to double a dose. So yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:
[75:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going both cheeks.

Speaker 2:
[75:43] Like make a trip back to Tijuana.

Speaker 1:
[75:47] But yeah, so I was just curious about how success is defined for you to be the best.

Speaker 2:
[75:52] Yeah, that's a living reality, something I live with and that I ask people to pray for. I'm like, pray for me in this because those are things where, man, I feel disingenuine at times because I'm like, this is the church's mission statement. And I'm up there at the same time, like, man, I'm wanting that. But also there's a greater desire in me too, or there's this other desire. John the Baptist said that his mission was to decrease so that Christ would increase. In other words, he was OK being in the shadows, so that Christ would be in the spotlight. That's in me too. And so both of those things, as the Apostle Paul says, like both of these things are like waging war inside of him, you know? And yeah, so that's a reality. But ultimately, I trust that the spirit is going to continue to refine and sanctify those desires so that my desire is ultimately for Christ to be in the spotlight. But that's a living reality. But what does that look like practically? I don't want to build an empire. I want to, I think what success looks like for me, and I think we should define success whenever we're planting churches. I think it's a healthy thing to do is, I think what success looks like is, is your church actually living out its core values? And so one of our core values is transparency. Do people feel safe within your church to actually confess their sins and bring forth their brokenness? And I would say, man, that's a sign of success. If someone knows they're hidden in Christ and they don't have to protect their image anymore, but that Christ has come in and restored them, then man, there's a lot of freedom to say, man, I'm hidden in Christ. I don't have to hide anymore. And so there's freedom to be transparent. So I would say success looks like that. It looks like we're planting churches that keep planting churches, that keep multiplying churches. And that's why we're a part of a church planning network called Acts 29 that exists to plant churches like that. But I think success looks like looking and saying, man, we got more and more pastors that are now pastoring churches in this town and this town and this town, and there's more and more men, Cam, I would say. Because I would say our culture is pretty gritty, and I'm thankful for that. I would say a bunch of crazies that are crazy about Jesus. And I was once told that I take the Gospel serious, but not myself. And I thought that was a great compliment. And so, that would be my hope, is that in these small ruled gritty lumber towns, that there's places where those rough neck, rough around the edges guys go, Yeah, I want to get plugged in. I want to hear about Jesus. And Will Primos, their company, the tagline was, speak the language. I feel like I speak the language. I feel like I speak the language of small town. It's a lot of Christless conservativism. In other words, they have all the conservative values without Jesus in them. So I feel like I understand that culture. I speak that language. There's a lot of good old boyism and legalism of like, hey man, look, I'm working hard. I'm putting in the work. I'm trying my best and therefore that proves me to be a good person. That's the common message. And so I mean, I know how to speak to that. And so my heart is for those guys that are just rough and tough and gritty and think there's no way I'm ever stepping foot inside of a church. My heart is for those guys.

Speaker 1:
[79:17] It makes me think of Powers, Oregon, where I go in Elkhunt out kind of over towards Coos Bay, just a tiny little. And I could have met, I just think about a church there for all those guys. I work in the woods, they're tough driving truck or setting chokers or timber fallers or in a mill somewhere. Those guys.

Speaker 2:
[79:35] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[79:35] I let those, because that was who I was gonna be. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2:
[79:40] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[79:40] And so yeah, I totally get that.

Speaker 2:
[79:43] When you're headed there, you drive through Camas Valley. And even like those little towns like Camas Valley, I'm like, man. Like, yeah. So did you know that there's a Johnny Cash song about Roseburg?

Speaker 1:
[79:53] Oh, no.

Speaker 2:
[79:54] It's called Lumberjack.

Speaker 1:
[79:55] Oh, really?

Speaker 2:
[79:55] Yeah. It actually mentions, it's talking about Roseburg, but it actually mentions Eugene in the song too. So yeah.

Speaker 1:
[80:00] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[80:01] Yeah. But he's talking about just the burly, just rough around the edges type guys. And I'm like, man, who's reaching? Who's reaching those guys?

Speaker 1:
[80:12] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[80:12] Because it goes back to your best friend and his ministry with, you know, reaching bow hunters and stuff like that. It's like, who's reaching those guys?

Speaker 1:
[80:22] Right.

Speaker 2:
[80:22] Because again, those guys are rough and tumble and they're lumberjacks.

Speaker 1:
[80:28] They're not going to listen to anybody.

Speaker 2:
[80:30] No.

Speaker 1:
[80:30] If you wear skinny jeans, you got whatever.

Speaker 2:
[80:32] That's why I was literally getting ready to say that. I was like, yeah, your vegan diet and skinny jeans, it's going to be real tough, man. You got a lot working against you. And so, yeah, my heart is for those guys to say, man, I get it. I get you. Like, you know, so, yeah. And this is a place where you can come in and you're going to meet other men like you. So, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[80:54] Who's the best preacher you've ever been around?

Speaker 2:
[80:58] Best preacher I've ever been around.

Speaker 1:
[81:00] And why are they the best?

Speaker 2:
[81:01] That's a good question. My favorite preacher, by simply reading his sermons all the time is a man named Charles Spurgeon, who's called the Prince of Preachers. But let's go more modern day. I would say guys that I enjoy listening to are guys that I try not to listen to. That's a problem because I don't want to mimic them.

Speaker 1:
[81:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[81:23] So, man, I think Matt Chandler is one of the best Bible preachers right now. And he's in our network. I think Jobi Martin, the gentleman I was showing you is another one. My favorite preacher is Tim Keller. And yeah, in fact, he could explain the justification, sanctification thing much better than I do. He has a YouTube video called Dead Orthodoxy. And I'd recommend everyone to listen to it. It's phenomenal. I enjoy listening to him because he's not charismatic. And I'm drawn to that. He is, he's very heady, he's very intellectual, but man, he knows how to get to Jesus in every passage, in every verse of the Bible. He's just, yeah. So I mean, he preaches the Gospel clearly and faithfully and knows how to preach Christ from every book and page of the Bible.

Speaker 1:
[82:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[82:19] And that's huge.

Speaker 1:
[82:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[82:20] Because you can moralize the entire Bible, which I think Tracy said that's what she understood. So many of the Bible stories get moralized into where we become the hero when in all reality, they're actually pointing to Christ, the true and ultimate hero and stuff. So yeah, so he's a guy. I think he was phenomenal at that. But yeah, I try not to listen to a lot because I don't want... Also, a lot of pastors are getting fired for plagiarism.

Speaker 1:
[82:43] Oh, yeah. I could see like using ChatGPT for sermons.

Speaker 2:
[82:48] I had a guy tell me, he's like, yeah, I think that's fine. I was like, other than the Bible says that those who labor in preaching and teaching, I was like, you know, so...

Speaker 1:
[82:57] Yeah, it goes against it for sure.

Speaker 2:
[82:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:59] I was curious. We talked about this a little earlier, but what's the best criticism you've ever received? So people love giving advice.

Speaker 2:
[83:07] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[83:08] And I get advice all the time. I'm like, did I ask? I don't remember asking you. I don't actually care what you think. So, but sometimes you get some good criticism and you're like, maybe I can reflect and get better from that. So have you got good criticism before?

Speaker 2:
[83:25] I have, man, and plenty of it. So, let me roll out some of it for you.

Speaker 1:
[83:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[83:33] I mean, I have a great and close and honest relationship with one of my best friends in the world who were planning the church down there in Roseburg at his gym, yeah, CrossFit Roseburg. And so, he is lined out for me. I mean, I remember we were sitting in a Chinese restaurant, but I mean, he lined out for me where he sees so many of my character flaws. At the same time, I was like, man, that stings.

Speaker 1:
[84:04] Why was he doing this?

Speaker 2:
[84:07] But I don't know exactly, I don't remember why he was doing it. I think he was frustrated or pissed about something, and it was probably warranted. But I also realized that it's those type of people that are willing to say difficult things to me, which I know that sounds crazy because I've heard, I've had people say something to me, my other buddy Adam, I'll share that one in a second. But with Dave saying all that stuff to me, I was like, man, that guy loves me enough to be that uncomfortable to say difficult things to me knowing that it could risk the friendship. So I think sometimes people don't say stuff because they love themselves and love you loving them more than they actually love you to tell you something that would be really hard and difficult. Does that make sense? I've had a guy, another buddy Adam, to where I could hear his voice shaking. And he's like, hey, man, I feel like you're horrible at texting me back and calling me. I've called you multiple times. I'm putting a lot more effort in this friendship and stuff like that. And I would say his statements were true. My wife would tell you, I mean, she told me yesterday or the day before, she's like, hey, look at your text messages. And she's like, have you responded to anything? She's like, it's like, look at all those, no response. And so I'm like, yeah, not great at that. But I remember listening to Adam tell me all that stuff. And I was like, hey, man, like I can hear your voice, like shaking. That tells me that you love and care a lot about me and our friendship, that you're willing to share something that hard with me, that I can see, man, you're clearly not chasing your own comfort because you are not comfortable in sharing that with me right now. And so those are types of things. I am often criticized on my communication. I am bad at communicating. A lot of stuff stays in my head that doesn't actually come out. And so and then I will have expectations of, I think people should, my dad used to say...

Speaker 1:
[85:49] They should have known.

Speaker 2:
[85:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[85:51] Even though you didn't say it.

Speaker 2:
[85:52] Yeah. Like my dad used to say, I can't look up your butt and read your mind.

Speaker 1:
[85:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[85:55] And I think I want people to do that. So I'm criticized on that. Preaching, I mean, I've been criticized for, I think if you're faithfully preaching the gospel Cam, I think people are going to accuse you of what's called being an antinomian, saying that you're against God's law. I believe God's law is good. I believe it's holy. I believe it was a gift. It's just, it's not able to save us. Only God's saving grace can do that in the gospel. And so, but one of the things that, whenever you're preaching that message and you're preaching grace that you're going to be charged with is that, oh, this means you're an antinomian, you hate God's law, that you don't believe people should live a moral life or follow God's commandments or anything like that. I'm like, that's not consistent to what I believe, but I believe we should preach grace heavy and hard. I also believe we should preach, because of that, grow up hard too and live consistent too. But yeah, I think those are examples. So yeah, I hope this, I hope that if someone's willing to sit down with me and tell me how stocky I am and they're willing to give me the bad news, I hope that they're willing to give me the good news too. Which is something that I believe our church family and Christian community should do. If I come to you and I'm like, Hey Cam, I think what you just did was screwed up and selfish and awful. And if I came to you or if I went to a brother in Christ and said something like that, dude, that was, come on man, that was so selfish. I would also want to remind him, Hey, that's why Jesus went to the cross, to pay for your selfishness. And now because of that and because of your faith in Jesus, God doesn't see a selfish man. He actually looks at you and sees a perfectly selfless man because Christ was every moment of every day Christ was selfless and that life now actually belongs to you. In Christ, and so I'd want to make sure that if I'm going to give someone bad news, I'm also going to give them the good news if they're my brother in Christ.

Speaker 1:
[87:56] Yeah, I get that. Yeah, and I think it's like it's different to when somebody's talking like we get mad and we yell or you get drunk and you say crazy shit. There's always a little bit of truth in it. But when somebody's calm and just saying, hey, can I talk to you about something way different? So if you have a buddy or like this criticism we're talking about, if it's set in anger, it's easy just to blow that off. It's like, ah, they're just pissed. Even the person saying it says, oh, sorry about that, I went overboard. But when you can sit down and just say, hey, can we talk? That's where it means something. But I was thinking too like for you specifically, when you're saying all that, I was like, and I don't know when the discipline part or when but like for you, because you are kind of like a bigger intimidating guy, I think it's better for not, for you to not do discipline type stuff, not do the correction stuff, because you already, then it's like double or whatever. It's like intimidation plus criticism. You know what I mean? So it's almost like in, we talk about these-

Speaker 2:
[89:08] I have to be mindful that-

Speaker 1:
[89:09] These mean people.

Speaker 2:
[89:09] And my wife has told me that too. She's like, your voice, your voice can intimidate people.

Speaker 1:
[89:15] Right.

Speaker 2:
[89:16] And I mean, I get worked up, Cam. I get passionate. There's as many people, we've played this game within our church family of trying to assign one word to people. And so the word that's been used for me oftentimes is passion, you know? Or passionate. And so yeah, I have to be mindful of that. There's even times in grocery store where we're like, I'll go up behind someone and I'm like, hey. You know? So yeah, I think, yeah, I have to be mindful of that. Keep going, sorry.

Speaker 1:
[89:41] It's all good. I was curious too. So what's this? I have these random Thoshes.

Speaker 2:
[89:47] Oh man, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[89:48] Just crazy. But what is your favorite scripture right now?

Speaker 2:
[89:52] Yeah. My favorite scripture right now, I would say, man, I love Colossians 3.3, that our life is hidden in Christ with God has been just massive, not just now, but just for the last 20 years, growing more and more of understanding what it is to be hidden in Christ. But yeah, I'm also drawn to parables. Like I love Matthew 20. That parable pisses so many people off. What is it? That parable blows up merit, and it shows that you're saved by grace and not merit. So it's this whole parable that Jesus tells. Again, you have to realize when he's telling stuff like this, and when he's telling a story about the prodigal son, the Jewish leaders were pissed off because they're like, yeah, Tim Keller wrote a book called Prodigal God, and that story is actually great because what Jesus is doing is showing how prodigal a rogue God, because that's what the story is about, is this father who's giving this lavish grace that wouldn't be... Anyways, I'm gonna go back to Matthew 20. Man, I'm like a retriever. If something's thrown out there, Cam, I'm gonna chase it. So I'll reel it back in.

Speaker 1:
[91:03] I love it, love it. That's why we're doing this.

Speaker 2:
[91:07] Matthew 20. There's this laborer and he goes out and he finds someone to come and work his vineyard. And he does that first thing in the morning. And then he comes out a few hours later and he gets someone else. And he does that on until the evening, until basically right at dark. And then it's time to pay their wages. Well, he agreed to pay them a denarius. And so he starts off by paying the person that he just hired right before dark, who hardly worked at all. In fact, some people have really taken the time to break it down to show that like, he might've not even done anything by the time that he got out there, right? But he still got paid. And then the person that came in around noon got paid. And then what the people started to think, and this is where the frustration is, is they're like, okay, well, I'm getting ready to be paid. That guy didn't do anything. He got a denarius. That guy did more. He got a denarius. Since I came at the very start of the day, I'm probably gonna get a lot more.

Speaker 1:
[92:00] Two, three.

Speaker 2:
[92:01] Yeah. And then he gives them a denarius. And he's using that story to show, you're not saved based upon your merit, based upon your work, based upon your effort. You're saved based upon grace. And so even parables like that, that Jesus tells are just brilliant and just show his infinite wisdom in. And so I love parables like that. I told you yesterday, one of my favorite verses, that's like, even today I was out on a walk and I was just reminding myself of that. I believe Lord help me with my unbelief. Can I have faith? Help me with the little faith I have.

Speaker 1:
[92:33] That was the one I needed.

Speaker 2:
[92:34] Yeah, I trust. Help me with my lack of trust. So that's a huge one for me in this seasonal life. Or planting. Planting is expensive. It's scary. I'm stepping into the town that I also hurt people in and cause problems in and stuff like that. So yeah, there's a lot where I'm like, all right, Lord, I believe help me with my unbelief. And so yeah, I'm in that season where that prayer is a living prayer and reality for me.

Speaker 1:
[92:56] So yeah. That's good.

Speaker 2:
[92:57] What about for you? You got some verses tattooed on your body, don't you?

Speaker 1:
[93:02] Well, I had another question for you. So tell me how this would go over. What if you go and set up this church down there in Roseburg and whatever you're plugging away. And then new guy comes in, your replacement up here, and this one just blows up. And it's like, you can't even fit all the people in there.

Speaker 2:
[93:24] Okay. I didn't know if you meant like implodes or...

Speaker 1:
[93:27] No, it goes crazy.

Speaker 2:
[93:28] Blows up in the right way?

Speaker 1:
[93:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[93:30] Yeah. How would I respond to that?

Speaker 1:
[93:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[93:33] Yeah. I would...

Speaker 1:
[93:35] Because let me... So you said you got to preface this when you're talking to your buddy, you got to say, this is, you know, I have flaws too. So when I left my job, there's a little part of me thinking like, I hope it just turns into a shit show. And then because it kind of validates my work. Like, oh, you see, I was doing good here. It was people didn't realize how good I was.

Speaker 2:
[93:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[93:57] That's my ego.

Speaker 2:
[93:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[93:58] I really didn't want them to fail, but you sort of do sometimes a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[94:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[94:04] So this is me. I see. This is why I need to go to church.

Speaker 2:
[94:15] I think, man, though it's hypothetical, I think I would genuinely be excited. Like, I want this church family to thrive and grow and be healthy.

Speaker 1:
[94:27] That's exactly what you're supposed to say.

Speaker 2:
[94:28] Yeah. And I knew you would think that. But in all reality, if it doesn't, I think that also says something about my leadership too, that's terrifying to me. So that can also be a reality and that I created, it was a cult personality more than it was anything else. It was just there for me. And so I think-

Speaker 1:
[94:50] The success of planting churches is when you're not there, they're still-

Speaker 2:
[94:55] I thought you were gonna say something like this. Like one of our members asked, hey, you're taking the name down there to Roseburg, what if you become weird and woke? That's what was asked. And I was like-

Speaker 1:
[95:05] Could happen.

Speaker 2:
[95:06] Well, I was like, well, what if that happens to you guys? The same question could be asked here and whatnot. But yeah, I am, man, I'm hopeful that the church grows and thrives and is healthy and successful. So yeah, and I'm trying to like, like plummet the depths of my heart to be like, what I, here's the thing. I know how I'm wired. And so here's my problem. I am wired to be a planter and start things. I don't think I'm good at all the fine tuning that the older a church gets and the more nuanced things get and the more administrative they are. That is just not, I love creating, I love building, I love pulling people together, I love starting, I love that stuff. So Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, he says, you know, that I planted in Apollos Watered. I don't think I'm a water. And I think the guy who comes in to lead for us needs to be really good at watering and doing that stuff. And so, yeah, so someone asked me, they're like, what are you going to do in Roseburg in 10 years? You know, you're just going to go plant another church or something.

Speaker 1:
[96:17] So yeah, that's what I was wondering too, because I am like that also where I get the dopamine hit from the new challenge. But then because I get bored easy. Yeah. Then once the new challenge is gone, then it's like, what?

Speaker 2:
[96:31] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[96:32] You said administrative. It's like just the same on normal. This feels like regular life again.

Speaker 2:
[96:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[96:36] I don't want regular life. I want the excitement of this challenge and this, you said you're scared about it. Is it gonna fail? It's like, that is cool. But I wonder if to be the best pastor, as you said, your goal was, if you need to develop that other part too. You know what I mean? So you make the big splash, but then also how do we continue to build this?

Speaker 2:
[96:59] Yeah. And that's the tricky question is, there's a way in which God created us and He gave us our strengths. Do we spend more time developing the areas of our weakness or do we spend more time leaning into our strengths? Which is why some churches hire guys that are more of an executive pastor role because they're really good at all the nuts and bolts and stuff like that. I'm not a nuts and bolts.

Speaker 1:
[97:24] China shop.

Speaker 2:
[97:26] I'm not a nuts and bolts kind of guy.

Speaker 1:
[97:30] I had some questions for you, I didn't get to them.

Speaker 2:
[97:32] Oh man, what did you have?

Speaker 1:
[97:34] Well, you were known as a holy terror. What were you actually running from?

Speaker 2:
[97:40] That's good. That is good. I think I gave you quite a bit of what I was running from. My mom gave me that nickname by the way. So that's why it's a good one. Yeah, it's a good one.

Speaker 1:
[97:52] What do you think people misunderstood about you back then?

Speaker 2:
[97:56] Man, what do I think people misunderstood about me? Here's a big one is that I was a pretty sensitive kid growing up, like pretty sensitive and...

Speaker 1:
[98:15] But acted tough.

Speaker 2:
[98:16] Well, no, I think part of that is that...

Speaker 1:
[98:19] Or when you were small, you were sensitive, but not tough.

Speaker 2:
[98:22] Yeah, and then, yeah, like just so much of me is raised by this ultimate man's man. And I'm like, dude, I'm pretty sensitive. Like, I just remember seeing, like I hate bullies to this day, but like when people are picked on and stuff like that, like I just remember like it would make me sad and stuff like that. So I think part of it is that, even the intimidating factor that I have from how I look, I think once people get to know me, like there is still a reality that I think, it's like God created a guy who is still sensitive and yeah, I don't know that so much of me of what I was doing was trying to like respond to being who my dad wanted me to do and all that stuff.

Speaker 1:
[99:05] And to be clear, insecure a little bit. You did the steroids to be the big strong guy. So yeah.

Speaker 2:
[99:11] I was a chameleon too. I think that's the hard thing is like I would be whoever I needed to be in whatever group I was in in order to survive, including when I was around my dad. I wanted to be who I think just like any son, it's like you're just longing for your father's approval and stuff like that. So yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't even know if that's a good answer, but I guess that's what I would say is. Yeah. Is that there was a whole lot of mess going on. And man, I want to be careful what I say. And I've grown in this more, especially over the last couple of years, because there's a lot of good stuff that I learned from my dad. But I think the difficult thing was, is that what you're describing was a living reality for me. And I would say, especially from my mom, and that's who my heart breaks more for, is that we could put on the best facade. We could go to church and we could even go to church as a family. And my dad commanded respect, just his presence alone. But man, we're full of crap. I mean, if someone could have looked on what was going on inside of the walls of the home and stuff like that, it was just, yeah. So I think, yeah, when you say imposter syndrome, I think for so long I had an imposter syndrome. But I think also, I think my mom has said that she's like, I think our whole family was in survival mode.

Speaker 1:
[100:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[100:43] Yeah. I used to take pretty intense sleeping aids.

Speaker 1:
[100:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[100:47] Last week of my dad's life was pretty awesome. Got to spend some time with him and got to go in the room with him and ask my mom to leave. And I said, my dad was huge on eye contact. And so I said, hey, can I talk to you? And he's like, yeah, go ahead. And then I started to lay stuff out for him. I'm like, hey, this is what it was like. And he just looked away. And he looked away the entire conversation. And I said, but I want you to know, I forgive you. And I think you did the best you could. And then I left the room. I could see that there were tears in his eyes. He never said anything, but I left the room. It's pretty crazy. I've never taken sleeping medication, like prescriptive sleeping medication since that day. So, but yeah, man, there was just so-

Speaker 1:
[101:28] Do you think, so that was a relief for you to be able to say that to him? Yeah, absolutely. And that gave you peace?

Speaker 2:
[101:36] After so long, just so much bitterness and hostility and anger and-

Speaker 1:
[101:39] Probably afraid. And like when he's in a hospital bed, he's vulnerable. So vulnerable. You feel like you can, okay, finally, I can say how I feel.

Speaker 2:
[101:47] Yeah, and I told my wife, I'm like, man, like regardless of how much training you have and whatever you learn, like I was still terrified of my dad. You know, there's just like, man, there's just a deep fear there. But yeah, I felt like, yeah, the power of truly of forgiveness. And yeah, of what I would say is basically just holding glass or holding barbed wire for so long, hoping that it was going to somehow impact him or something like that. But it was just destroying me. And so, yeah. And so, but yeah, I would say people probably didn't know the depths of what was going on inside of the home, you know, because I think that would be misunderstanding.

Speaker 1:
[102:30] Yeah, for sure. That was was a cancer. What's your dad? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[102:34] And you would have never. So my dad retired, probably the hardest working guy I've ever known, retired after 44 years with the railroad. And then he got two jobs. He was working part-time for a butcher, just straight out for meat. And then he was working as a janitor for one of his close friends to clean the offices at night. So he was just a guy who couldn't sit still.

Speaker 1:
[102:52] And yeah.

Speaker 2:
[102:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[102:54] It's got some positive attributes. I mean, got some negative too, but like did after that talk, did it ever come up again? Or how, how long was he alive?

Speaker 2:
[103:03] No, no, I remember it never came up again. I got to take care of my dad the last week of his life, but by quite literally, you know, and you could just, I could see the humiliation in his face, which it does. It breaks my heart now because he's like, you know, he would say, he always call me my boy. He'd say, they did some crap, my boy. I got you sitting here giving me a sponge bath and stuff like that. He's like, this is what's waiting for, you know? So it's just like, you know, it's like, man, but yeah, I think there was, I think my dad, I think my dad, the one thing he said, which it still sticks out to me, he says, I don't think I know who I am, but I've always had this hard shell on the inside, but I don't know if that's consistent who I am on the inside. I was like, oh my gosh, like you just said, what, just how I felt for most of my childhood. But like all I've ever thought of you is like hard, hard. You don't cry. You don't show emotion. You, my dad's three favorite words in his life were suck it up. I was bit by a copperhead when I was 10 years old and he took me home and told me to suck it up. And my mom made him take, you'll have to ask my mom about that. My mom was like, take him to the hospital. You crazy? Yeah. Suck it up. Those were his words, man. And so, so yeah, but I think it was, it was wild for me to hear him say that, like from, yeah, more or less like for the majority of my life. I don't think I've been the man that I actually am on the inside. I just know how to have this shell and this, and that's what he's done. Yeah, so.

Speaker 1:
[104:28] Well, when he died, what was that like?

Speaker 2:
[104:32] Man, people ask, like, if you had three wishes, what were they? I'd say that all my family, friends and loved ones are saved, that I'd be a billionaire. I'm going to be, you know, if we're being honest. Yeah, yeah, and I'd like to have another day with my dad because my dad got me into hunting. Like my dad taught me about work ethic. My dad taught me a lot. There's just a lot of conversations that I, I want to know more about my dad and where my dad was at and stuff like that. So I try to answer questions for my dad because I was like, hey, if you were, you know, if this is like when he was, I was like, if you die today, you stand before God in heaven. It's famous question, you know, or classic question of, and God says, why should I let you in dad? What are you going to say? And I'm listening if people are going to answer in the first person and say I, or if they're going to answer in second or third person. And so I wanted to just force this question to be, and just be like, dad, don't say anything, just point to Jesus and say, he's the only reason I can come in, you know? Yeah, yeah, like this is what you'd want to do if this were to happen, you know? But my dad would profess to be a Christian. And we would profess to have been, you know, raised in somewhat of a Christian home. But I think my mom and-

Speaker 1:
[105:47] Loosely speaking.

Speaker 2:
[105:49] Yeah, there isn't a child who made it in our home outside of me past the age of 16 years old. Like they ran away or left. It was just, I'll say.

Speaker 1:
[105:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[105:59] It was tough.

Speaker 1:
[106:00] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[106:00] Yeah. So tougher than what it was portrayed to be. And that's what's difficult. So, but at the same time-

Speaker 1:
[106:07] What do you mean tougher than?

Speaker 2:
[106:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[106:09] Oh, so it didn't seem, from the outside didn't seem as bad as it probably was.

Speaker 2:
[106:14] Again, there's guys and people who have way harder lives than me. So I don't want to say I've had the toughest life because there's aspects of my life that were good. I mean, my parents were married. That's, you know, like that's not a-

Speaker 1:
[106:24] Yeah, my dad wasn't around. Yeah, so like- At least your dad was there, right?

Speaker 2:
[106:28] Totally. And so there's aspects like that where I was like, man, and my dad worked hard. It's not like we were broke or poor or anything. Like my dad worked hard to do whatever he could to get us nice stuff. So it's not like those things were there. It's just like, yeah, there was a, yeah, just a, this is what a Sunday morning face looks like. And then this is what...

Speaker 1:
[106:50] Was it like, didn't, I mean, nervous to go home? Or for him to come home?

Speaker 2:
[106:59] Oh man, Cam. And my mom would say the same thing, is that that was just a common emotion whenever my dad was around. We would if whenever my dad was, this was our habit. And maybe you did this too with your mom or something like that. But whenever dad came home, we grabbed rakes, we grabbed whatever we could. And we started moving around the house and acting like we were doing. But my mom would do it too. And it was just like his presence is like no one's sitting down. And my wife noticed even like when I was growing up, that when my dad was around, I would start grabbing stuff and doing something. So it's like ingrained in there to like, don't sit around, don't be lazy.

Speaker 1:
[107:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[107:31] And all that. So yeah, just.

Speaker 1:
[107:33] Have you ever seen the movie Tree of Life?

Speaker 2:
[107:35] No, it's pretty good.

Speaker 1:
[107:37] But I always say that our house reminds me of that house. The movie which maybe, but Brad Pitt's the dad. And he was really hard. And so like when he would go travel for work, it was just playtime jumping on the mom and the kids, jumping on the furniture on the bed, just having the best time. And then dad gets home and was like, Oh God.

Speaker 2:
[107:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[108:00] So that was like, I always say that's how it was for me. Like when I'd leave and then when I come home, it'd be like, Oh God, dad's home.

Speaker 2:
[108:11] My mom, my mom will kill me for saying this. But you know, I was baptized Catholic. Dad would have called himself a Southern Baptist. I grew up in Texas before Roseburg. We moved there when I was about 13. But man, it was funny because the Baptist pastor would come over to our house. My mom would run around. She'd be like, All right, all right, put the booze away. But like, it was like going around the house and like taking all the alcohol and like shoving it into the cabinet.

Speaker 1:
[108:35] Because Catholics can drink.

Speaker 2:
[108:36] Yeah, shoving it and hiding it and stuff like that because the pastor is over. And so so much of that was like, and yeah, I remember my mom would say like, whenever they would even sit down with the pastor or talk about whatever's going on in their marriage that my dad was so intimidating that he would say, you don't know me and I don't know you. And so he would set the course of how those meetings are gonna go.

Speaker 1:
[109:00] So watch it.

Speaker 2:
[109:01] And so essentially, people were terrified of him. So no one's gonna say anything-

Speaker 1:
[109:05] Just ground rules.

Speaker 2:
[109:06] Yeah, he's setting the ground rules upfront. And this is how the meeting's gonna go down. And so, yeah, so there was this whole facade of like, this is what it's, and I think that's why I had such a hard time with, for a while, I had such a hard time with Christians and whatnot, because I'm like, yeah, I just, I think there's a lot of BS. And I'm like, and because we had behind that. And yeah, so.

Speaker 1:
[109:30] Yeah, I know that I get that facade. I was like, you know, when a man loses his dad or son loses his father, whatever it is, it's such a, I mean, you talking about that in the hospital, cause my dad died of cancer also. And it's just like, it doesn't matter how old you are or how, what you've went through or how it's like seeing your dad, you know, we always want to be strong. We always want to be, we set the standard. This is, watch me, this is the standard. And when that goes away, I just, I'll just, you know, I was very thankful that I had those moments, kind of like what you just described with your dad, with my dad where he couldn't do anything, you're just laying in bed. And so we could just talk. There was no other distraction, but I'll just never forget, you know, he died. I go over there, he died at his house, you know, at his hospice, but then they're, you know, the coroner's there and he's like, oh man, I'm just by myself. Can you help me get him out to the car? And so, you know, carrying your dad in a body bag is like, I'll never forget. Like we're just, just like, you're like, hey, I need help moving that bench out to the truck. Just like that. It was just so weird. And it was just like, I'm like, that's the last memory of my dad. Just like, here we go and get him in there. And it's like, I was grown. I was, you know, 47 years old, but you know, still now, if I think about it, or if I think about Roy too, it's like, man, we're not that tough. I'm not that tough because it can still impact me.

Speaker 2:
[111:15] Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[111:16] You know, and it's like, we go through these lives.

Speaker 2:
[111:18] Did you get to have some of those like hard conversations with your dad or not?

Speaker 1:
[111:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he was like, no, we did. And that's what I say I'm thankful for because we didn't have those moments. Cause I'm busy. He was coaching at South forever. So he's always busy with the kids. And, you know, so we just, when he's healthy, just like a lot of people, you just doing your life.

Speaker 2:
[111:40] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[111:40] You know? So you, there is a blessing, even though it was a terrible, long, painful death, there was some positive to it, you know, with the having that time to be able to go over things and apologize or do whatever, just have a real talk. But yeah, it's like when you talk, I just, it just brought all that back when you're talking about your dad. And, you know, it's, you know, and we talk about being leaders and being men and what that means and how it can impact others. It's like, I don't know. I don't know if we don't, guys don't talk about it enough. But anyway, I just wanted to just bring it out.

Speaker 2:
[112:22] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[112:22] Just cause you reminded me of it.

Speaker 2:
[112:24] There is this reality is like for so much of my life, all I wanted to do. And that's, I think a lot of boys are like that with their dad, but like, I just wanted to be like my dad.

Speaker 1:
[112:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[112:33] My dad literally took me hunting for the first time when I was five years old, you know? Like that was awesome. Yeah, it's amazing. And yeah, he would tell people I shot the deer and that's not the case, but I got the credit and the glory for and stuff like that. And so yeah, I think for so long though, that I was striving so hard to gain my father's approval, but to no avail that I was just like, man, I'm exhausted, you know? And so, and then I would say that's when like, just more disappointment and all that came. And I just think it finally took its toll. I think I've just finally started to quit. Cause I was like, well, I think the other side of this, to just make him give up on anything in me is just to quit.

Speaker 1:
[113:11] When did he die?

Speaker 2:
[113:13] He died when my oldest daughter, she's 12. And so my wife was six. So he died 13 years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[113:22] How long have you been preaching?

Speaker 2:
[113:25] I've been preaching since I was, we planted here when I was 32, 10 years ago. And I started pastoring at the church down in Reno. I was a family pastor down there for a couple of years. And so that's where I first started preaching. And so my dad got to come and hear me preach.

Speaker 1:
[113:40] Oh, he did. That's what I was going to say. It's like, has he seen your progression? Because I mean, I would just thinking of that before I asked, it's like, he'd have to be proud of you.

Speaker 2:
[113:51] I think if you ask, if my dad was here today, he would tell you, my best friend, Dave, my dad. So Dave would tell me, he was like, Hey man, I had lunch with your dad today. I was like, I had lunch with my dad. And he's like, yeah. He's like, he's told me that he's just sorry and regretful for his actions and decisions and how he raised you and all that sort of stuff. And so, and then he said that at our wedding too. So he had the microphone. I mean, most people couldn't understand him.

Speaker 1:
[114:23] Can you say that your friend or your dad?

Speaker 2:
[114:25] No, my dad did. So he grabbed, so I've never heard him say these things, but my buddy would tell me he had lunch with your dad and this is how he's feeling. I was like, Oh, but until our wedding, he did it. Then he grabbed the microphone and yeah, again, my dad's, so he's raised in Arkansas. My wife could not understand me, so I was always like interpreting. Yeah. But most people couldn't understand a lot of what he said. But at the end of what everything he did say, and that's how I know, I'm like, man, yeah, he was proud of me, is that he said, I'll tell you one thing for certain, is that he said that boy right there is the finest boy in the United States of America. That was like the only thing that people can understand. Someone made me a shirt that says finest boy in the United States of America.

Speaker 1:
[115:09] It's a hell of a title.

Speaker 2:
[115:10] That title belongs to me, man, no one else. I mean, you can go for-

Speaker 1:
[115:13] Yeah, put it on a belt.

Speaker 2:
[115:14] Yeah, second place out there for someone. But yeah, so all that to say is like, so he, during that speech, he said like, I'm sorry for not being around, I'm sorry for how hard it was, I'm sorry for these types of things, which is hard for me in that setting, because I was like, man, it was awkward, and then stuff like that. But I feel bad because someone asked me why I never went up to him and hugged him afterwards, and I just think, I don't think I was ready to hear it, I don't think my heart was there.

Speaker 1:
[115:39] Yeah, I think it kinda, like you went through a lot of pain for a lot of years, and hugging him probably would have let him off the hook, and you still felt some of that probably.

Speaker 2:
[115:50] A lot of that, man.

Speaker 1:
[115:51] Like, yeah. Because if that was me, I'd be like, keep apologizing. You know what I mean? Because we're so, we can be so vengeful.

Speaker 2:
[116:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[116:07] And so maybe it was that. Maybe you had been in pain so long that you were quite ready to let him off the hook.

Speaker 2:
[116:13] When I first went through pastoral candidates, seeing all that stuff, and I was interviewed by other pastors, they were like, dude, you need counseling. And I was like, counseling's for weird people. I don't need counseling. I'm like, that's not for me. You guys probably need counseling for saying that.

Speaker 1:
[116:29] I definitely need counseling, but I definitely won't go.

Speaker 2:
[116:33] So, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[116:36] Did you know in Roseburg, remember those, did you ever know that me and Ted New joined down and shot those goats up on the cliffs before?

Speaker 2:
[116:43] No, I think they're still looking for the suspects.

Speaker 1:
[116:46] Did you ever see those goats up there?

Speaker 2:
[116:50] Yeah. Did you know that people would paint those at times?

Speaker 1:
[116:54] Like a paint ball gun?

Speaker 2:
[116:55] No, they were like for St. Patty's Day, like they would grab one of the goats and paint it green and stuff like that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[117:00] Well, we painted them red, like a running an arrow through them. But no, they must have went over the hill and then whoever owned that property back there, like, cause they're a feral, you know, people, they don't want goats there. They weren't doing anything other than, I don't know what they do. But so we had this, there's a guy that worked at the mill down there. I think his name was Jeff. I wish I could remember his last name. I got a picture of him. You might know him, but this is, he's probably way older than you. But he worked at Roseburg, whatever that mill was. And so Ted Nugent was playing at the concert here and me and Wayne were together. He was like, hey, so we asked him, hey, you wanna go on a bow hunt before his concert with the damn Yankees over here at the Holt Center? It's like, hey, we can go kill these goats down at Roseburg. He's like, yeah, let's do it. So we went down there and just killed the shit out of them.

Speaker 2:
[117:50] Is that legal?

Speaker 1:
[117:51] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[117:52] Yeah, that mountain's called Mt Nebo.

Speaker 1:
[117:54] I think it's legal because they're not like, they're not deer elk.

Speaker 2:
[117:58] I'm wondering because, I'll explain to you, have you ever heard of the organization called TIP, Turn In Poachers?

Speaker 1:
[118:02] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[118:03] We're fundraising right now, man, for a church, but.

Speaker 1:
[118:06] Well, this is 36 years ago. So I don't know what the statue's limitations are on shooting goats.

Speaker 2:
[118:13] I'll squeal so quick, man.

Speaker 1:
[118:15] Hey, yeah, let's start two churches.

Speaker 2:
[118:17] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[118:19] Yeah, we hit a net.

Speaker 2:
[118:19] You guys know, you guys been wondering what happened to those goats?

Speaker 1:
[118:22] We hit a nest egg with our donations here.

Speaker 2:
[118:24] Yeah. You're going to have all that cut out.

Speaker 1:
[118:28] I don't give a shit. I used to be so nervous about making a mistake hunting because you make, you make one like even just innocent mistake. Like when you're like, if this is your job, it's over. Now, I don't even, I mean, I'm not going to ever poach anything, but I don't, I don't worry. It's like cancel me. I don't give a shit.

Speaker 2:
[118:47] My mom's been worried about stuff that I share because we used to call in pizza to other people's houses. Then we would jack it from the pizza guy. And then, so I shared that and she's like, hey, I don't know what the statute of limitations is on that sort of stuff. But yeah, so.

Speaker 1:
[119:02] Yeah. Anyway, I think we're good on the goats. I don't know about the pizza thing. I think that's longer.

Speaker 2:
[119:08] You mean as far as prison time?

Speaker 1:
[119:10] Yeah. Robbie and the pizza guy.

Speaker 2:
[119:11] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[119:12] Of pizza. I think that's like 30 years.

Speaker 2:
[119:15] I mean, you're just snagging the bag from them and then running, you know?

Speaker 1:
[119:19] It's not that serious.

Speaker 2:
[119:20] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, good shit. Kids have to survive.

Speaker 1:
[119:26] Yeah. Hey, this has been an awesome conversation, dude. I'm so I mean, I'm pumped that we're able to do this boat thing, help out the church, but mostly I just want you to succeed. I want you to be the best in the world. That's your goal. I want you to impact all these small communities that need Jesus and need to hear the good word. I want all this to happen. So I haven't, you know, finding a good church and a good leader of the church is difficult. And we've been to a lot of churches around here.

Speaker 2:
[119:58] So when we went to yours, it was like, it was like, you know, Trace told me that time after the breakfast or whatever, cause I didn't really know you. But she's like, oh yeah, you'll like him. He's, you know, he's like.

Speaker 1:
[120:10] Like, he's not vegan.

Speaker 2:
[120:12] Yeah, he's like, she's like, I think she just said, you'll like him. And I'm like, and she was right. So it's hard. So it sucks that, I hate that you're leaving. There's some great men at the church, though. And I love Chad, I love, he's a good guy. I love Adam, great guy. DJ, there's all sorts of like, just cool people. And Cam goes there. Of course, my son goes there. My wife's sister, it's, I really look forward to it.

Speaker 1:
[120:44] Do you ever get to hear DJ and Renee's story?

Speaker 2:
[120:46] And I've never looked forward to church.

Speaker 1:
[120:49] Because at some point, you got to hear that story.

Speaker 2:
[120:52] So now I have it.

Speaker 1:
[120:53] Yeah. They planted the church with us, man. And it was like, and I'll share it. They've shared it publicly, but he was having a long term affair. And so yeah, the fact that DJ is a Christian, the fact that DJ is a pastor, the fact that DJ loves theology and their whole marriage, man, is like a picture of redemption. It's incredible. So yeah.

Speaker 2:
[121:16] That's awesome. Well, there's a lot of good examples of doing life the right way with Jesus there at your church. So yeah, I'm very thankful. Thankful for your friendship. Thankful for this opportunity to sit down and talk. And yeah, it means a lot. Thank you, Rick.

Speaker 1:
[121:34] Yeah, likewise.

Speaker 2:
[121:35] Appreciate it, brother. All right, guys, keep hammering.