transcript

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Speaker 3:
[00:30] Tell me if this sounds familiar. You have some ambitious plan for meaningful or productive things that you want to accomplish, but then your phone enters the scene and the next thing you know, the day is over. Lost in a blur of digital slop. So I've been interested recently in a potentially powerful strategy for pushing back on this distraction monster. Becoming a more disciplined person. All right, now let me be more specific about my hypothesis here. Here's what I think is true. If you can cultivate a standout disciplined pursuit in your life, something hard that you can come back to again and again, then this specific discipline will rewire your brain in a general way so that resisting distractions becomes massively easier. Now this idea is super compelling to me, but is it accurate? And if it is, how do you actually maximize your chances of succeeding with putting it in the practice? Well, these seem like the perfect questions to ask in a Monday Advice episode of this show, so that is what we're going to do today. Now here's my plan. To help me find answers, I'm going to be joined by my good friend and friend of the show, Brad Stulberg. Brad has an excellent chapter in his most recent New York Times bestselling book, The Way of Excellence, that talks exactly about cultivating discipline in this way. So I'm going to have Brad on the show. I'm going to ask him three things that I want his help with. One, how do you choose the right type of discipline pursuit? Two, how do you stick with it in a way that is going to be sustainable and turn you more generally into a disciplined person? And three, what benefit should you expect from putting this plan to become more disciplined into action? Now this third point is clear. I mean, it's critical. When I went in this conversation with Brad, I was thinking the real benefit I care about doing something hard is being less distractible. But Brad convinced me that the real rewards actually go much deeper than just less distractibility. All right, so if you're tired of your attention being hijacked by your devices and want more meaningful days, then this episode is for you. As always, I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, the show for people seeking depth in a distracted world. And we'll get started right after the music. All right, Brad, welcome back to the show. Last time you were here, your book, The Way of Excellence, was just about to come out. Since then, it has come out and was a New York Times bestseller, so I'll pass on my congratulations about that.

Speaker 4:
[03:12] Thanks. Top of the Mountain is, it's narrow. Not a lot of time up there, but it was fun. It was a good night.

Speaker 3:
[03:18] Do you wear the official sash? As a New York Times bestselling author?

Speaker 4:
[03:22] No, I didn't get a sash.

Speaker 3:
[03:25] Well, I'm not surprised. It's a great book. And we're going to pull from a different part of the book today because I think it's relevant to what we talk about here on the show. In particular, you have a chapter in there that people really like about discipline. And we were chatting, and we were making this connection between discipline as a potential response or cure for one of the issues we talk a lot on this show, which is that sense of distraction, overcoming your life, sucking the energy out of your life, making you feel like you, I think your phrase is, what is it, restless exhaustion?

Speaker 4:
[03:57] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[03:57] Restless exhaustion. So this idea of discipline being the cure is something I want to get into. So we're going to get into the ideas from that chapter. We're going to get into like nuts and bolts advice for how to actually use discipline as a cure for distraction. But let's start, I want to start with your story, because I think discipline has played a really interesting role in your life. I want to sort of rewind back. You're leaving high school as an athlete, heading off to college. Talk about the role of sort of discipline, physical activity in your early life.

Speaker 4:
[04:28] Well, growing up, I played sports. I played basketball and football at a pretty high level. And it was good enough to play maybe small division one schools or most division two, division three schools.

Speaker 3:
[04:39] You said basketball and football.

Speaker 4:
[04:41] Football was the sport that I was going to go play in college.

Speaker 3:
[04:43] What was your position?

Speaker 4:
[04:44] I played slot receiver, tight end. And then outside linebacker.

Speaker 3:
[04:48] Oh, interesting. So you were fast and kind of tall.

Speaker 4:
[04:50] Yes. And I'm still kind of tall. I'm not as fast. But so I ended up deciding to go to University of Michigan for a whole number of reasons that we don't have to get into. I was not good enough to play football at University of Michigan. So this thing that gave my life a ton of structure in discipline went away. And then in college, I dabbled in endurance sports. I started running. I was generally active. But I never had a pursuit that I was trying to get good at that really required discipline. I'd call it a hobby. And then after college, I got more and more into running.

Speaker 3:
[05:23] What did you do after college? So what's the professional context now?

Speaker 4:
[05:26] I went to work at McKinsey & Company as a consultant because I was relatively smart, insecure, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And as a McKinsey recruiter said, that we recruit smart, insecure people that don't know what they want to do. They make great consultants.

Speaker 3:
[05:37] I wrote this, I found it recently, that I had written a humor column in college. And the whole premise of the column I found this recently was no one actually knew what a consultant did. Yet it seemed to be what everyone was like interviewing to go do. And the whole column, the whole premise was like, one of us is going to figure out one day like what this job actually means. But they're great ever recruiting from elite schools. Like just trust us. All you need to know, it's hard. And you get a high five and a gold star if you get the job. They're like, well, sign me up, buddy. I'm into it.

Speaker 4:
[06:03] Yeah. So I went to do that. And I got more and more into running. And I don't think that this was coincidental because is a consultant, whether or not you do a good job is very subjective. Right. You've got the opinion of the partner that you're working for. You've got the opinion of clients. Generally, the things that you're recommending in the studies that you're working on can be multi-year transformations. So you don't get an objective, concrete sense of, I put in work and here was the result, which is the total opposite of running. In running, you train, especially if you're new and you either get faster or you don't. So I caught the running bug. I got hooked on running. I completely transformed my body to become more of a runner.

Speaker 3:
[06:44] So you had all the mass and muscles of being like a.

Speaker 4:
[06:48] I was 205 pounds when I graduated high school and throughout some of college. And then as I got into running, I got down to 160 pounds.

Speaker 3:
[06:55] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[06:56] So it got pretty serious about it and I got pretty good. I was never great.

Speaker 3:
[07:01] What distances are we talking?

Speaker 4:
[07:02] I started with half marathons, then I ran marathons, then I did half Ironmans, then eventually I did an Ironman triathlon. My goal was to qualify for Kona, which is the World Championships, and I came up just short.

Speaker 3:
[07:12] Okay. With like Rich Roll?

Speaker 4:
[07:13] Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3:
[07:14] Yeah, interesting.

Speaker 4:
[07:15] But I was always, so there's two things about that. The first is I was always fighting against my body. My genetics are clearly those of a football player. There's a reason that I didn't run cross country in high school and I played football. It's because I was better at football. So I was getting injured. I was top heavy.

Speaker 3:
[07:32] Your podcast co-host, our common friend Steve Magnus, that's the build over runner. Correct. You see this guy, you're like, oh, I get it. You're a long distance runner. You see you and I, you don't think pre-fontaine.

Speaker 4:
[07:42] Exactly. Well said. So I was fighting against my body. And then also, as I got older, I was fighting against my life because the amount of time it took to get better at long course triathlon, and forget the fact that I was always injured. So now I got to do physical therapy and all this other stuff, but just the training. Once you're pretty good to get better, it requires a ton of training, 15, 20 hours a week. And I realized that that didn't fit my life. And then when we had our first child when I was 30, it became very clear that I was not going to be able to pursue trying to be a world class writer at the same time that I wanted to be a really good father and a husband, and also continue to get better at triathlon. So then I entered kind of like the dark night of my athletic soul where I decided that I'm not going to be an endurance athlete anymore. This had always been a huge part of my life. Now I've got a baby at home. I'm still relatively early in my career, right? I'm at age 30. And this thing that had been this anchor in my life was just suddenly gone.

Speaker 3:
[08:41] Yeah. What did you feel when that disciplined pursuit was gone? How does that subjectively show up in like how you actually feel day to day? Like what was the differences that later on you went look back like, oh, this is what changed when that left my life?

Speaker 4:
[08:56] I felt more frenetic. I felt more distracted. I felt less settled and less situated both in myself and in the world. Even though, again, I'm a writer, I'm not an athlete. Running should have nothing to do with writing, swimming, biking, nothing to do with writing. But that anchor and that disciplined pursuit in my day, what I later learned about myself and I think applies more broadly is it had all these carryover effects to other elements of my life, that then that became a huge vacuum.

Speaker 3:
[09:26] What about stress and anxiety? Like something I recognized, like when I was in graduate school, I was doing graduate school stuff and writing books. And one of like the hidden advantages I realized about that is that it gave me, if something was going poorly, I could focus on the other thing and still feel good. And like there's momentum. If I was struggling with my academic research, I could be like, okay, you know what? I'm just putting in the time there, but what I'm gonna daydream about and get excited about is my books. Or if the books were doing poorly, I might be like, no, no, I'm like doing well in the research. So I mean, was it serving? Do you think like your athletic pursuits was serving as a sort of counterbalance to the other stuff that was going on professionally in your life that gave you a way to sort of even out the ups and downs, the anxieties, the stresses, and did it change when that went away?

Speaker 4:
[10:12] Great point. 100% is the answer. I was like another room in my identity house. So if the only room in your professional identity house is writer, and then you've got a family room, we don't really make concrete progress in family. But in writing, like if shit hits the fan, if I'm lost, if I'm stuck, if I have a piece that flops or worse, a book that doesn't do as well as I thought, you could feel a real sense of like stagnation. Then it's nice to be able to double down as an athlete and say, well, I'm getting better, I still get mastery. So essentially, we know that it feels really good to be making progress and to be on a path of mastery. If you have more than one area of your life where you can do that, you diversify your mastery portfolio.

Speaker 3:
[10:50] Then what about the physical piece in terms of like burning energy, the energy you have or don't have? How did that change for you when you didn't have? I mean, it must have been when you're training that much. You're talking about hundreds and hundreds of calories of athletic endeavor most days. That's also probably just your physiology felt different.

Speaker 4:
[11:09] I'd say that it felt different. I still remained really active. Like I take walks. When you have a baby, it's very easy to put them in the ergo carrier and you're constantly walking while they're sleeping. I think that there was less of that because toward the end of my career as an endurance athlete, I felt like I was fighting against my body to continue to try to stay that size and get better so much that it became cognitively very draining.

Speaker 3:
[11:33] So part of it was diet, part of it was just constant exercise.

Speaker 4:
[11:37] Constant exercise and always being injured. That ultimately became the thing. In my height, 5'11, being 165 pounds actually makes you a fairly heavy endurance athlete. For me, I felt like I was always starving myself. I was never eating enough just to get to 170 pounds. You're looking at me now, this is how my body wants to be. It didn't want to be that.

Speaker 3:
[11:59] Yeah, I'm 6'2, and used to row at 165. It's brutal. It's brutal, yeah. There's a lot of cutting weight to win into that. Yeah, and injuries too, right? Because people with our bills, if we run too much, things go. Our knees can't handle it, I can't whatever. Okay, so here's where we now get relevant for the existing audience. I'm very interested then. And so you stop that, your career's going good places, you have kids, you're not doing the endurance athletes. At some point, you make a very deliberate decision of like, I need non-instrumental discipline back in my life, but I need to be strategic about how I do that. So what's the story that leads you to the thing you're doing now as a source of, I'm like, I'm doing suspense in the audience. They don't know what it's going to be. Spoiler alert, it's crocheting. He's a killer crocheter.

Speaker 4:
[12:51] I'm really good. No, but I did get in a bonsai, which is kind of close to crochet.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[15:33] All right, so Theo, my son is born and I remember that I just needed something physically active. I mentioned I did a lot of walking, but I need to say physically active. So at the time we lived in Oakland, we lived right across from the YMCA. So I started going to the gym and just throwing around weights. And the only time I ever trained in the weight room was always very instrumental. I trained to be good at football. Like I never trained to train, I trained to be good at football. And then in the weight room, it felt great. I felt like I was back in high school. My body just immediately responds to this kind of training. It's clear that we talk a lot about nurture your nature. My nature is built for that sort of thing. So I started getting pretty good at it. I started getting stronger. I started putting on muscle. And I realized that, which never occurred to me back then, that I could actually train in the weight room without football. Training could be an end in and of itself. Strength training could be an end in and of itself.

Speaker 3:
[16:29] Like just wanting to have gains on what you're able to lift, for example. Or just like how strong you get.

Speaker 4:
[16:34] Yeah, picking a couple lifts and saying, this is what I currently do. I'm going to work on the skill. I'm going to show up consistently and I'm going to get stronger.

Speaker 3:
[16:42] So what did this look like in the Oakland days? You would just, how long, how many days a week? It was just, hey, I have a little bit of downtime. Hey, Caitlin, I'm going to run across the street in 30 minutes. Yeah, just feel good.

Speaker 4:
[16:50] I'd say that was the first year or the first at least nine months of this. It was a hobby. Yeah. I'm just going to go throw around some weights. I knew enough from football. I'm going to do two days a week lower body, two days a week upper body, but not a lot of thoughtfulness went into it. Then once Theo got a little bit older, he starts sleeping a little bit better, I have a little bit more time and cognitive bandwidth, I say, I'd actually like to have a goal here. That's when I discovered powerlifting.

Speaker 3:
[17:19] How did you discover it?

Speaker 4:
[17:20] I didn't even know powerlifting was a sport. There were some guys at the YMCA and they're always doing squat bench press deadlift.

Speaker 3:
[17:26] Is that what it is, by the way, maybe you should clarify this for the audience. When you hear powerlifting, what happens in a powerlifting competition?

Speaker 4:
[17:33] In a powerlifting meet, you have three movements. You have the squat, and then you have the bench press, and then you have the deadlift. There's also something called a push-pull meet, which is what I ended up doing, which is just the deadlift and the bench press. In a push-pull meet, the benefit of this is it takes half a day instead of a whole day. Okay. I don't love squatting. I still squat because you have to squat to deadlift strong. Something about having 600 pounds in my back, it's a little scary.

Speaker 3:
[17:59] Deadlift is literally the weight is on the ground and you just pick it up, you stand up and it's at your waist.

Speaker 4:
[18:04] You lock. Yeah. The point of a deadlift is it's at a dead stop on the ground and you need to lock it out to your waist. It is by far my favorite movement. It is a whole body movement. It's kind of the pinnacle of total strength.

Speaker 3:
[18:16] Yeah. Okay. Is that the one where people can, if you just look at raw weight numbers for weightlifting things, that's the thing where the numbers are the highest? That's like the, because you're doing the least motion with it?

Speaker 4:
[18:28] Some people squat more than they deadlift. Some people deadlift more than they squat. But yeah, you can get a pretty big number on your deadlift.

Speaker 3:
[18:34] All right. So here you are. You're in Oakland. At this point, you're done with McKinsey and working for Kaiser at this point, or you're doing the coaching or what's...

Speaker 4:
[18:41] Yeah. So I've taken a job at an internal consulting group within Kaiser, which is a big healthcare system, and I'm still 50% Kaiser. So I'm getting health benefits through Kaiser. I had a really great boss and now my writing career is starting to look good. So I'm 50% writer and I'm slowly realizing that Kaiser is not going to pay me at 20%. I think I just need to be a writer.

Speaker 3:
[19:03] Yeah. If you want to do more writing, you're making that move. So that's the time when you start taking the power lifting more seriously. You met some guys at the gym that were doing it. You learned about it. Now you had a number that you're going to try to increase. All right. So then how did it develop into what role it plays for you today?

Speaker 4:
[19:20] I fell in love with it. I fell in love with the very concrete objective progress, where you put in work and you either get better or not. I fell in love with how it makes me feel. So like the feeling of putting yourself through a hard workout in an undistracted way became an enormous anchor in my day, and I fell in love with the gains. Because when you get serious about something, and we should talk about this, you do get better every single day for a time, and that feels really good. Then about six and a half years ago, my family decided that as a part of just going all in on writing, we're going to move to Asheville from Northern California. I'd already written the book Peak Performance with Steve. I was becoming known as an expert on performance, and there's all this BS out there when it comes to training. I founded gym in Asheville, and I remember looking when we decided we're going to move to Asheville. I wonder what the training seems like, and there was this gym that just seemed phenomenal. They really knew what they were doing. So even before I moved to Asheville, I reached out to the gym. I got a coach, and we said, all right, we're going to try to get your deadlift and bench press and squat as strong as possible.

Speaker 3:
[20:28] Was this Zach at this point?

Speaker 4:
[20:29] This is Zach.

Speaker 3:
[20:29] All right. This is our common coach.

Speaker 4:
[20:31] I hooked Cal up with Zach. That's why Cal's looking so strong.

Speaker 3:
[20:33] Between Brad and I, we average. Actually, the average, when I was going to say we average on the deadlift, would be a very embarrassing number. I'd say between the two of us, we can max out.

Speaker 4:
[20:43] Our combined deadlift is probably quite good.

Speaker 3:
[20:46] Yes, our combined deadlift is, what's your deadlift?

Speaker 4:
[20:49] 530.

Speaker 3:
[20:49] Our combined deadlift is over 600 pounds.

Speaker 4:
[20:52] There you go. I'd love to get to 600. So, yeah, so I start training. I start getting coached by Zach. And at this point, power lifting, I'm an athlete again. So weight lifting and power lifting shifts from a hobby and something I do to a part of my identity. And I don't say I'm a power lifter, but I'm an athlete again. And what that means for me is not that I'm going to win medals because I'm not.

Speaker 3:
[21:15] But you do compete.

Speaker 4:
[21:16] I did. I've done a few competitions.

Speaker 3:
[21:18] Yeah, but that's something, right? That changes something, right?

Speaker 4:
[21:20] Yeah, I think so. But I think it's more just saying that I care about this. I'm going to set a goal and I'm going to hold myself accountable to it. And this is no longer just something that I do. This is something that I do deliberately with intention and with a kind of discipline, a discipline to show up, a discipline to be consistent, a discipline to care. That to me is the shift from I lift weights to I am an athlete.

Speaker 3:
[21:46] Okay. So then before we get into how my audience can think about having a discipline anchored in their life, I want to sort of more fully explore what comes out of this, right? So like a common objection would be, but Brad, that takes up a lot of time, which you could be hustling even more. Like that could be time that you could be, maybe you could write books faster, or that's time you could be building more social posts, or you could be doing whatever. So how do you understand the balance of time required by a non-instrumental discipline pursuit and the benefits you get? Like what would your life be like if you took this completely out of your life and just repurposed the time you spend on this just for work?

Speaker 4:
[22:27] Well remember, I'm coming from 17 to 20 hours a week training as an endurance athlete to in the gym. I'm in the gym four days a week for maybe an hour and a half at most two hours a day.

Speaker 3:
[22:40] The rest of us were like, that's a lot of time. So you're saying to you, you're like, oh, I'm basically barely training.

Speaker 4:
[22:44] Yeah, my reference point was much higher. I could give you a nice buttoned up answer about how it's a no-brainer and power lifting makes me better at everything else in my life. And I think there's a lot of truth. But you know that I call you once a month and I'm like, would I be a better author if I just stopped training so hard and all I did was take long walks? So there's a real tension. What I would say is it's a trade-off. And I've come to believe that, yeah, it does take time, it takes effort, it takes energy. But the benefit of having this disciplined pursuit in my life carries over everywhere else where one, it's a net benefit. Number two, I enjoy it and I get a kind of satisfaction out of it that I don't get anywhere else. And number three, it gives me an area of life like you were saying earlier where if I'm in a little bit of a rudder, I'm stagnating somewhere else, I can try to focus and make progress there.

Speaker 3:
[23:37] Did you notice any differences? Like when you had a surgery on your leg a few years ago, which I assume took you out of training for a little while. I was going to ask if you noticed any differences in that period where you couldn't be training, but also you're in recovery, so it was not a normal.

Speaker 4:
[23:52] But I was still training and this is where Zach is a really good coach because the benefit of training isn't just getting under a barbell, the benefit is the disciplined pursuit in your life. So we just designed all kinds of workouts that I could do with crutches. So it was a lot of upper body on the skier, it was bench pressing, it was pull-ups, and then there was the rehab for my leg.

Speaker 3:
[24:12] Yeah. Okay. Then from the outside, I see the power lifting time you do, which to me is a lot of time. It slows you down in a good way. So I want to run this theory by you, right? So it means when you're thinking about your professional pursuits, it puts a little bit of a governor on the freneticism or speed with which you can move forward because it's like, well, the work is a part of my life, this is another part of my life. I feel like it keeps you in this mindset of like, what is my ideal lifestyle and moving forward. I think it's beneficial. I think without that governor, if you had a lot of time and you wanted to fill that time with, everything has to be filled for my writing career, I mean, you could have a killer TikTok channel in which you use dance to sell supplements or something like that, right? Like, I mean, I see from the outside, but I want to get your take on that, the sort of pacing it instills on your professional life, like slow and steady, I'm working on this idea, it becomes a book when I work on that idea, is like actually from a slow productivity standpoint, better.

Speaker 4:
[25:10] I think we're practicing what we preach, even though sometimes it can be hard. I think if my goal was pure growth, and if I define growth as book sales, and if I define growth as people who subscribe to my Instagram and Substack, then this would not be a good part of my life. Like it would be detracting from growth. However, my goal is not growth. My goal is to do good work and to live a life of excellence in a deep life, to use both of our terms. And in so far of it, that's my goal. Having this governor is really helpful, 100%. It prevents against obsession and burnout. And even though the volume and the velocity of my writing work isn't as high because of this, I think the quality is higher because even though it is quote unquote stressful to train that hard, it's a different kind of stress than the cognitive stress of writing. So it gives my brain a chance to rest. And it gives me cool shit to write about. Like the weight room is a microcosm for life. You face fears, you're vulnerable, you make progress, you have to show resiliency, you have to overcome setbacks, you're doing it with other people. You don't feel like doing it all the time. Like these are all things that lead to excellence in anything.

Speaker 3:
[26:15] Yeah, okay, so then let's make this a general strategy then for people writ large. So generalizing beyond like the particular thing you do. So how do we actually generalize this discipline habit? So what are we looking for if I'm an individual that says I want to have a discipline anchor so that all these benefits that Brad has, I have this sort of, it evens out my life, it gives me perspective, it prevents one part of my life from spiraling out of control. My anxiety goes down, the various benefits. What are we looking at if I'm just listening to this show right now? What am I looking at to try to do?

Speaker 4:
[26:55] The first thing that I would say is you should find a pursuit that you can do at the level you want to do it that fits into the rest of your life. So what I mean by that is if I wanted to keep training in triathlon, I don't have 20 hours. All of it's going to happen is I'm going to stress myself out because I'm going to feel like I'm never training close to my potential. It's taking away time from these other things. So what's the point here? So you have to right size what you're doing. So for me, mastering and getting better and trying to be the best is really important. To be my best, I should say, is really important. I know that in weight lifting, could I train more than eight hours a week? Of course, but the returns would be so diminishing that I actually feel like training eight hours a week hard is about the max that I can do. And I can still be a really present father. I can still coach my son's baseball and basketball team, my daughter's soccer team. I can still write really well. So it has to fit your life. I think a huge trap is people get really inspired and they're like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna train for a marathon or the triathlon or I'm gonna start a coffee shop. And then you realize that that's a 20 hour a week project and I don't have those hours and then it just causes more stress.

Speaker 3:
[28:09] Yeah. Okay. So you need a realistic target. What should you be looking for in the actual activity that it should be challenging? There's growth and it's not directly connected to what? Like your compensation for your job. What's the properties we're looking at for what makes a pursuit a good discipline anchor?

Speaker 4:
[28:28] I'm gonna make it really simple and then we can elaborate. Meaningful struggle.

Speaker 3:
[28:31] So it has to have struggle. And we've talked about this before. So what makes a struggle meaningful? I think people, not to reuse the word, struggle with that concept, right? Because like why is weight lifting meaningful, right? It's not because people think, oh, that means what I need to be lifting sacks of corn that I'm loading up to the truck to go to impoverish people.

Speaker 4:
[28:52] Or doing it for charity.

Speaker 3:
[28:53] Or doing it for charity. So what do you mean by meaningful here?

Speaker 4:
[28:55] You are doing it because the qualities that you are learning from doing it, you feel, are making you either a better person or better at other parts of your life. If I was just power lifting because I wanted big muscles and I wanted to be able to talk about how much I deadlifted, that would be very empty. That would not be meaningful. I am doing it because I feel that through the struggle and through the challenge, it actually helps shape me and helps shape my character into the kind of person that I want to be.

Speaker 3:
[29:24] I've heard this about men before. Like if you talk to, like I have a friend who's like a Jiu-Jitsu black belt, or you talk to people who are like professional fighters, they'll often tell you like, hey, for men, there's this other nice thing that happens is that it aims and burns off and uses your testosterone and your aggression in a way that they become really nice guys, like the nicest guys you're going to meet is going to be like a Jiu-Jitsu black belt or whatever, because they've sort of burnt off that aggression. They're not twitchy and anxious and like flying off the handle or whatever. So there's probably another thing there is like it helps you show up as a dad and show up as a husband better perhaps, because like you probably have a lot of testosterone energy, et cetera, and it needs somewhere to go. Otherwise, you could be a little bit, do you buy that? I've heard that from fighters a lot. It's like fighters are nice.

Speaker 4:
[30:15] I think fighters are nice, but I don't think that's necessarily the reason. All right, listen, we're all on a bell curve. So I don't know my natural testosterone. I've never had it measured. I don't know if it's high, low, somewhere in between. For some people, that's probably true. I think what's actually going on, though, is a little bit more nuanced and to me more interesting, which is that if you train for fighting and you do it really hard, it softens you because you realize how freaking hard it is to step into the arena and try to kick someone else's ass or to get your ass kicked. And that makes you a softer person. I think the people that go around all machismo and are assholes, part of the reason is they've actually never done anything meaningfully hard in their life. I think when you do something that's meaningfully hard, it softens you and makes you kinder. It's like this paradox of becoming a humble badass.

Speaker 3:
[30:58] It's funny if you ever hear Joe Rogan on his podcast talk about fighting, because he was a kickboxer and a fighter for a long time. He hates it so much and he's so obsessed with, I don't think you realize how easy it is to injure your head. He's just terrified by all fights. You could fall and hit your head. You could die, you get brain damage or whatever. So it's funny. The more someone fights, you're right. The more fighting is terrible.

Speaker 4:
[31:17] Yeah. Well, I think doing something really hard and with integrity makes you a more compassionate person. I truly believe that because you see how freaking hard it is to give something you're all in to try to get better and to fail along the way, and then you get kinder.

Speaker 3:
[31:31] You're probably not as tuned in in every conversation about like, I need to prove myself, I need to make sure that people know that I'm an impressive person, and then you're bragging and embarrassing.

Speaker 4:
[31:40] It's a quiet discipline. In the book, I talk about the difference between like performative discipline and real discipline. And performative discipline is you're pounding your chest, you're giving a hype speech, you require a parade to tell everyone how disciplined you are. That's not discipline. Discipline is showing up at the gym when no one else is watching and doing the workout and then going home and not needing to tell everyone about it, and showing up for your family or your job or whatever else you have to do. Like that's actual discipline.

Speaker 3:
[32:06] Yeah. It's like how I always thought about writing like when I started was I was like, okay, step one, write for 10 years. Step two, put your head up and say, hey, can I do something interesting yet? It's just like the long sort of unromantic. It's not a slog, but it's time consuming.

Speaker 4:
[32:22] But I think back to the initial premise about discipline versus distraction, I think if you actually commit to something like that, it simplifies life in like the best of ways because you're not so worried about the constant velocity and freneticism in the latest trend. You just have your thing and you go do it. So what's so great about power lifting is you've got all these bros talking about optimizing this and supplements and protocols and new ways to train. And it's like, no, like I'm just going to show up at the gym and work these lifts and do it with a good coach and a good community of people. And I don't have to pay attention to any of that.

Speaker 3:
[32:56] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[32:57] And that is so freeing to not have to pay attention to any of that. It's like it's calming.

Speaker 3:
[33:02] So going back then to the first point, choose something that actually fits within your life. How do we navigate the tension between, okay, maybe very little fits in my life right now. And actually what I need to do is actually free up some more time, like make some sacrifices versus this would require too many sacrifices, right? So I assume in some people's lives, like actually you should give some things up.

Speaker 4:
[33:26] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[33:26] So that you can have a disciplined pursuit, but also if it's, I need to train 20 hours a week, that's giving up too much. So how do we, what's that tension between, you should sacrifice on behalf of your disciplined pursuit, but it shouldn't be unrealistic sacrifice. Is that the right way to think about it?

Speaker 4:
[33:40] That is the right way to think about it. And I think that it's obviously going to differ based on an individual circumstances. There are some people, I want to couch this, that probably truly don't have an hour a day for a disciplined pursuit. If you are in medical residency or in a fellowship as a transplant surgeon, if you just had twins, if you are somebody that is working two jobs just to pay rent and make ends meet, then you probably don't have an hour in your day, and this just might not be the advice for you at this season of life. However, if you don't fall into one of those small categories, I think a lot of people think they don't have an hour a day. But if you were to take social media off your phone, or if you were to not be so neurotic about studying that 11th hour and say that 10 is probably enough and maybe the 11th hour actually has a negative return, then you would get that hour back a day. So I think part of discipline is actually making it the hour. Now, there's a big difference between an hour and three hours, but I think most people can find an hour a day or an hour five days a week. I think that most crafts, if you actually show up with deep focus for that hour, you can get pretty dang good.

Speaker 3:
[34:52] We're talking, and just to be clear, this is not physical is one category. Doesn't have to be physical, right? So it could be an intellectual thing.

Speaker 4:
[34:59] Watercolor, woodwork, get into gardening, bonsai trees, you joked about crocheting, but quilting, make art, make music, learn guitar. The physical stuff, sure. If you're a dude that played football, and maybe you're testosterone hypothesis, it has these other benefits. But I really just think I'm inclined for power sports. Some people are inclined to grow orchids. Great, grow an orchid. It doesn't matter what it is, what matters is that you care about it, and you show up with deliberate intention. It's a long game that you're playing, and you realize that to get really good, this isn't like, I'm going to do 30 days at 30 minutes a day and then be great. This is like, I'm going to do this for 30 months and maybe 30 years.

Speaker 3:
[35:44] All right, so let's get into the traps then. So we were talking about this a little bit offline. We were able to come up with several ideas. You were telling me of these are the things that trip people up after they commit to what you just said. After like, you know what, you're right. I want to discipline, pursue it and anchor. It's going to anchor out my life. I'm going to be less like distracted and restless. It's going to fit into my life. I'll sacrifice not too much. All the things we talked about. All right, so we have some traps. All right, what's the first one that's going to trip a lot of people up?

Speaker 4:
[36:11] I think the first trap is the hobby trap, which is that you're doing it and you like it, but it's just kind of a hobby. And there's not that intentionality. Maybe there's not a goal associated with it. There's nothing wrong. I think most things start this way. This is how my pursuit of really powerlifting and strength training seriously began. But you can also get stuck in that hobby phase. And I think the challenge with that is then things always come up. And when things come up, you just don't do it because that's just a hobby.

Speaker 3:
[36:37] So it's a hobby if you're not, what, if you don't have a particular difficult goal you're working towards, you're just sort of like putting aside time and doing it.

Speaker 4:
[36:45] Yeah, I think it's a hobby if you, it's a little bit about the goal that you're working towards, but I also think about it's where it fits into your life. So I think a hobby, you have a much easier time not showing up for or letting go. I think a discipline practice, part of what makes it a discipline practice is that you actually say no, this is important to me, I'm going to do it. And even if that means letting other things go.

Speaker 3:
[37:07] So if you're like, I try to get to the gym three days a week because exercise is good for me and I like lifting weights or whatever, that's very different than these three times a week, I'm meeting a trainer at the gym because we're trying to get my deadlift up by 20%. So you have like set times you have to be there, set goals you're moving towards, not just, I try to put aside time for this on a regular basis.

Speaker 4:
[37:32] Yeah, I often think about it like there's exercise, there's training and then there's training hard. Exercise is what you first described. Training is when you're like, no, I'm training, like this matters and I'm gonna do it and it's gonna be important to me. And then training hard is a whole other thing.

Speaker 3:
[37:47] And then, all right, so what is training hard, do we need to get there or is that?

Speaker 4:
[37:51] No, I don't think we need to get there, I think if you get there, you'll get there. And that's probably true in any pursuit. Training hard goes from, you know, now it's this discipline practice to, I used to think that there was easy, medium and hard and this is true in anything and now I realize that there's easy, medium and ten different credations of hard. There's nine, 9.1, 9.2, 9.3, 9.4 and all those have a different feel. When you talk to anyone that's on the path of mastery, they feel this in their own craft too.

Speaker 3:
[38:20] All right, so we have the first trap is the hobby trap where I do it when I can, it's fun, but it's not set schedule towards set goals. All right, what else do we have to worry about?

Speaker 4:
[38:30] But just to be clear, most discipline pursuits start as hobbies. So it's actually good to have hobbies, but at a certain point, if you really like it, but you're still feeling kind of distracted and frantic frenetic, you might want to take that hobby and turn it into a discipline practice.

Speaker 3:
[38:43] Is what you're looking for is like, hey, I have this thing I like to do in my life and maybe you're looking for, oh, I don't like it when I miss it or I'm always happier when I'm doing it. That's the measure of like, oh, this is something that I might turn into a more discipline.

Speaker 4:
[38:55] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm a better person when I do it. So maybe I don't even enjoy doing it. I shouldn't say I don't enjoy doing it, but training every day is still hard. I don't wake up stoked to train, but once I've trained, I'm like, whoo, I'm glad I did it. It makes me better.

Speaker 3:
[39:09] Okay. All right. So let's move on. Then what's another trap that we have to worry about?

Speaker 4:
[39:12] All right. The other trap is one of my favorite. It's the 1% better everyday trap.

Speaker 3:
[39:15] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[39:16] So this term was popularized, I believe, by James Clare in his book Atomic Habits, and it is a great mindset. I completely agree with James on this. So get 1% better everyday means consistency over intensity, which I literally have a chapter about in my book, so I agree. It means that you don't have to hit home runs, you don't have to be a hero, you don't have to train till you puke, you just need to show up and get a little bit better everyday. As a mindset, I could not agree more. The problem is, when you are new to something and you have that mindset, you actually do get 1% better everyday. And that is a really strong, gratifying source of motivation. Now, what happens, and this happens in every single pursuit, and it's generally after anywhere from 9 months to 2 years, you stop getting 1% better everyday. And you have these plateaus. And the honeymoon phase of progress is over, and if the only thing that was bringing you back to the gym or back to the garden or back to the studio was the fact that you were making concrete progress, observable progress, then you're going to quit. And so many people quit once they stop getting 1% better everyday. So the way that I've come to think about it is 1% better everyday works for the first 9 months to 2 years of a disciplined pursuit, but then you kind of have to get rid of that altogether.

Speaker 3:
[40:32] Interesting. But then why, I mean, just from an athletic training perspective, just to put on that type of lens, what's the goal when you get to that plateau period? Why do you keep, like, what would happen, why do you keep training? Is the idea, like, eventually now it's just slower gains or you're gonna lose gains or now you have to start finding, like, much more, like, what happens if you're, like, you're an athlete? What happens when you hit that plateau? What are you trying to do?

Speaker 4:
[40:54] Two things happen. The actual reward is that you showed up and did the work, workout. It's purely intrinsic.

Speaker 3:
[41:00] But why, why do you-

Speaker 4:
[41:01] You exerted discipline.

Speaker 3:
[41:02] But why do you need to show up and do the work? Like, if I'm just an athlete, because otherwise you're gonna start losing.

Speaker 4:
[41:05] Oh, yeah, well, one, you're gonna start losing. Two, it's a part of your life. Three, you train at that point, not just to put more weight on the bar, to make the table more elegant or to grow the orchid more beautiful. You do it because it's like this process of discovery about the craft and self-discovery and curiosity. I think that that's how I like to think of it, is that the motivation has to shift from 1% better every day to curiosity. Yeah. You see this in, there's this great quote from Kobe Bryant. Whatever you think about his off-court life where he had all kinds of struggles, on the court, he's one of the best players to ever play basketball. Before his tragic death, he was asked, are you the kind of player that plays not to lose, or are you the kind of player that plays to win? Kobe Bryant said, I'm neither. I play to figure things out. I play to learn something.

Speaker 3:
[41:53] So you're still looking for progress, but it's different.

Speaker 4:
[41:55] It's different. It's felt. It's not as observable.

Speaker 3:
[41:59] Like empower, give me an example from your own.

Speaker 4:
[42:00] I'll give you a great example.

Speaker 3:
[42:01] From your own lifting.

Speaker 4:
[42:02] Well, forget my own lifting. Let's talk about an actual world-class power lifter. Lane Norton, who I spent a lot of time talking to for the book, he is the world champion deadlifter for his weight and age category. In Lane Norton, it took him eight years to move his deadlift from 716 pounds to 723 pounds.

Speaker 3:
[42:23] Can I just say for the record, combined, Lane Norton and I can combine deadlift over 750 pounds. Love it.

Speaker 4:
[42:30] So, Lane got less than 1% better every year.

Speaker 3:
[42:35] Wait, so say it again, seven years.

Speaker 4:
[42:36] Eight years. Eight years to gain seven pounds. Oh, God. Yeah. So, what kept Lane going back? It's exactly what I said. He's just like, this is a part of my life. Exerting the muscle of discipline and showing up, that is the reward. The work itself is the reward. And I'm endlessly curious if I make this little tweak that would be imperceptible to anyone but me. This could be, instead of having half a percent of weight on my pinky toe when I'm pushing the floor at the start of a lift, I'm going to put three quarters of a percent of my weight on my pinky toe. What would that feel like? What am I going to get out of this? So, you're running all these little experiments and it's the little experiments in the feedback loops that you're getting from those experiments that are every bit is addictive, is adding weight to the ball.

Speaker 3:
[43:21] So, it becomes a more nuanced type of progress. And it might be like the same metric that you're getting better at automatically by just training. Now, you have to do a lot more thinking, creativity to make it better. But it could be other things as well. Like, okay, actually I can make my training sessions much better or something like this, right? Like, oh, it's less injury prone or less exhausting if I'm smarter about how I do it. Like, so if you're learning guitar, for example, there's probably a period where you're just, I am getting better at guitar every week and I can play more songs or whatever. And then at some point you get to a place where you've mastered all those techniques. And now you might just be like, hey, there's like a particular picking technique and if I could really master this, it's a little subtle, but it'll allow me to do like this little thing or something. That might take six months, but you got to learn to make that be just as exciting as it was when you were six months into guitar playing and you're like, oh, I can play the F chord really well now, which like opened up a bunch of songs.

Speaker 4:
[44:10] Yes. And that endless curiosity becomes like the ultimate fuel for motivation. And you can have this professionally too. One of my best friends is a really well-trained and fine emergency medicine doctor. And he talks about how now he's not chasing better outcomes. What he's chasing is like the feel of a better, he calls it being more efficient, but efficient isn't even spending less time with a patient. Efficient is quickly sizing up what the patient's real problem is, getting to a diagnosis and doing it in a way that feels really good.

Speaker 3:
[44:42] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[44:43] But the outcome on the quality board at the hospital is going to be the same.

Speaker 3:
[44:46] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[44:47] But if he doesn't have that feel, then he could very easily get bored on this plateau. But instead, it becomes much more intrinsic, much more curiosity driven.

Speaker 3:
[44:54] I mean, this is just mastery, right? So like mastery goes through phases. And when you get to these, like the levels you actually call mastery, you have like a huge acquired body of knowledge and technique and skill. And now you're kind of perfecting its application.

Speaker 4:
[45:05] Yes. And I think that that is one of the most like, for me, that is one of the most motivating things about mastery in any craft, is when you start to combine thinking and feeling. And sometimes you think your way to the right answer. Sometimes you feel your way to the right answer. And it goes from being cerebral to like a nervous system thing. My sense is even you with writing. And you are, and I say even you, because you are so skilled, but you are you are so intellectual and cerebral. My guess is that oftentimes, when you have a great turn of phrase, you know it in your body before you know it in your mind.

Speaker 3:
[45:39] Oh, yeah. And I do exactly what you're talking about with writing. Like writing for me now, especially when I'm doing like journalism, especially like New Yorker stuff, which is like really refined, is I'm constantly now thinking about that like little tweak, trying something I hadn't been able to do before, doing something a little bit more interesting with the rhythm or the structure of the article. I'm going to go A, B, C, then A, B, A. And like, can I make that structure work? Like trying to pull a thread through, and it becomes the really small things. When you're first writing, it's the really big things. Like I still remember the first book I wrote, the manuscript I got back from my original editor, Ann Campbell, shout out to Ann. And this is back when they would copy edit things with pencils or whatever. She's like, this is really good. You don't use any contractions anywhere. You should use more contractions. I think it's a little bit unnatural that you always say do not and cannot. And I had just in my mind was like, that's not formal. That's not sufficiently formal writing or whatever. So you're like early on, man, there's big gains. They're like, don't start every sentence with the word so and use contractions, right? Like huge gains. And now I'm kind of in the weeds of like, can I pull this thread and weave it around this one in this way, which I saw like such and such writer do? I wonder if I can pull that off. And no one would even, no one notices. But like for me, it's pretty exciting.

Speaker 4:
[46:54] That's it. And you never get that in a hobby. So like if we do this linearly, you go from a hobby to a discipline practice, and then you get those 1% better, hell, 50% better, 20% better, 5% better. And then eventually you can't be addicted to the observable gains. And then you start to feel these other more intrinsic, curiosity driven gains. And that's your motivation and your fuel to come back.

Speaker 3:
[47:16] All right. Are we missing any other traps or do we get them all?

Speaker 4:
[47:19] I think there's one other trap. Well, there's two. There's the eyes bigger than your stomach trap, which we kind of already talked about, which is I'm going to go from running a 5K to an ultra marathon, even though I've got a stressful job, three kids at home and there's no trails near my house. Yeah. Like you're just, you're going to burn yourself out. It's never going to last.

Speaker 3:
[47:34] I think I have an example like that in the new manuscript I'm working on, where it was someone who wanted to surf, right? And living in San Diego, which is like people surf there. And the idea was she was like, I did it. This seems like really meaningful to me, right? But the reality was you don't live particularly close to the ocean, right? Surfing is really hard. It's really hard to pick up like later in life. Like you really have to be doing it all the time. You don't have the ability to do it all the time. It's actually those lineups are also kind of stressful because all the locals are there. This just doesn't make sense, even though on paper you're like, wouldn't that be great if I was a surfer? Then I think in that example, what ended up happening was she realized, and this is actually a hypothetical, but I was like making a point in the book that like, well, you know what? There's like a group of people who ride, they like mountain bike. We do have trails right near me and they kind of, they would go on rides and I sort of can go on rides with them over time. And then we do trips every once in a while. And like it was much more tractable. And it still got to the same place of like, I want to be outside in nature doing something physical. But the first idea, it just didn't make sense. It would just take way more time than you had, way more skill than you could build. So I guess that's the part of the eyes are bigger than the stomach. Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean that that's like the right pursuit for you.

Speaker 4:
[48:49] Yeah, it's got to fit your lifestyle. And you might have to make some changes, right? Like it's a struggle, but the changes can't be drastic. You can't, I mean, I guess you could unhave kids. That's called leaving your kids, but we're not recommending that. That's not the deep life or excellence.

Speaker 3:
[49:01] No, it's your next book. Drop the dead weight.

Speaker 4:
[49:05] Yeah, literally drop the dead weight.

Speaker 3:
[49:06] A plan for rediscovering.

Speaker 4:
[49:07] Deadlift more, yeah. No, we're not going to do that. All right, the last trap that we haven't touched on at all is what I call the optimization trap, which is when you think that discipline means row optimization. So controlling everything that you eat, staying up on all the latest protocols and hacks and fads, and what ends up happening is you're chasing all of these bright shiny objects, but so often this is just like performance art. Masquerading is actual progress where you'd be better off to ignore 99.99% of that stuff in discipline means focusing on the main things. In performance talk, we say don't major in the minors, keep the main things the main things. If you want to get good at dead lifting, you got to dead lift a lot of weight. Sure, do you have to eat enough and sleep? Yes, but optimizing your nutrition, optimizing your sleep, optimizing your breathing, you could spend all of your time and energy worried about that and not dead lift any more pounds than you were because what actually matters for a dead lift is showing up at the gym three to four days a week and training hard.

Speaker 3:
[50:10] And this probably comes partially from, we see this focus on like suitor productivity in the world of work increasingly. So it's just a mindset you have where you're like, oh, the key is in this new pursuit I want to do because I've learned this from like knowledge work is like always be doing things like new ideas, trying things, lots of action. I have all these tips, I'm doing it, I'm checking this off, I'm taping over my mouth, I'm putting my face in cold water. Like I'm doing all these different things because in the world of work, visible activity is sort of roughly associated with usefulness. But in the world of discipline pursuits, there is no boss to say, wow, you really answered those proverbial emails fast, you must be productive. The boss is the weight. And it doesn't really care that you taped up your mouth or whatever it is or took alpha quick or something like that. It's how many times have you lifted me? And is your muscles wired in a way to lift this now? It's just moving weight.

Speaker 4:
[50:59] Yeah, it takes a lot of discipline to get in there and move the weight. And it also takes discipline not to have every bright and shiny object distract you. And it's not to say there's not a time and a place for innovation in tweaking your technique. But I think that a time and a place means maybe once a year you try something a little bit new. It doesn't mean that every single time such and such fitness, longevity, influencer releases a new podcast, you totally change your approach.

Speaker 3:
[51:21] We're going to take another quick break to hear from our sponsors. Now, starting a new business is hard. I remember what it was like starting up the media company that produces this podcast. Here's what I learned. Don't reinvent the wheel. Trust industry leaders whenever you can. And this is where Shopify enters the scene. If you need to sell something, you need Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10 percent of all e-commerce in the US from big names like Goldbergs and Mattel to new brands just getting started. You want to sell online? You can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready to use templates. Do you need help spreading the word? Shopify can help you easily create email and social media campaigns to reach your customers wherever they are scrolling or strolling. If we ever start selling products related to this show, I know exactly what platform we'll use, Shopify. So it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com/deep. Go to shopify.com/deep. That's shopify.com/deep. I also want to talk about our friends at AG1. Springtime means travel, business trips, vacations, weddings, and travel makes it hard to stay consistent with your health. Well, this is where AG1 travel packs enter the scene. Now, if you're not familiar with AG1, it's a daily health drink clinically shown to support your gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps with 75 plus ingredients, including five clinically studied probiotic strains. AG1 replaces the need for a multivitamin probiotics and more. Look, here's why I like AG1. Supplements are complicated. I don't want a whole pile of pills that I have to keep track of and keep supplying. With AG1, you put one scoop in a cup of water each morning, done. You've done what you need to do to address that part of your health. All right, this brings us back to the traveling. How do you keep this routine up if you're on the road? Using AG1 single use travel packs. You can just rip open a pre-portion pack, throw it in water, wherever you happen to be. Health consistency maintained. This allows you to treat AG1 like a non-negotiable ritual no matter what chaos the spring throws at you. Go to drinkag1.com/deep to get an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 for free in your AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's a $72 value, yours free only while supplies last. Go to drinkag1.com, that's drinkag1.com/deep.

Speaker 1:
[53:58] Your LinkedIn feed can give you daily insights from your professional community. It cannot keep you updated on the daily office gossip.

Speaker 5:
[54:06] Oh my gosh, no way.

Speaker 1:
[54:08] It can help you stay informed on the latest news and trends in your industry. It cannot stop your boss from trying to start a new office trend. Who's ready for Flip Flop Fridays? And while we can't stop all of the office jargon.

Speaker 3:
[54:20] Does this vibe with our collaborative latticework metric?

Speaker 1:
[54:23] LinkedIn can start taking your career to new heights. LinkedIn is the network that works for you.

Speaker 3:
[54:28] All right, let's get back to the show. I have this term for this sometimes that's relevant. I call checklist productivity, which there's a real attraction to making progress on something by doing a bunch of steps if you look at any individual step, you know for sure you'll be able to do it. Nothing is just like do this for a year, put yourself out there. It's like, no, I learned this information and I can do all these things. Set an alarm, take this supplement, make sure I get this much sunlight. Everything on that list is doable. And you're like, I'm gonna get a sense of progress out of checking a lot of things off of that list. And almost always checklist productivity for almost anything that's hard and valuable doesn't really do much. And so I don't know the world of fitness optimization as well as you do, because you and your podcast talk about it a lot. But I was thinking about it, I do see this a lot in the writing world. There's a lot of checklist productivity for people that want to be in writers. I really want to focus on optimizing my sub stack. I really want to focus on using AI to build a custom idea management system that helps me more quickly make connections between different concepts. I really want to focus on the workflow I use for having the right social channels. And there's all stuff that nothing in there is competitive or requires long skill acquisition. And that is a lot more satisfying than you gotta put pen to a blank page and push past that stage where your mind wants to resist and build the best thing possible and then have someone tell you later what's bad about it and then get 1% better the next time until that stops happening and then you have to get more creative. So I get it now. So I don't know the...

Speaker 4:
[56:09] That just clicked for you. I can tell. You're 100% right because it is a lot easier to do checklist productivity. Anyone can optimize themselves to death and burn themselves out by trying to micromanage and control every single part of their day. What's actually a lot harder is identifying what really matters, showing up, doing what really matters, committing to it, doing it for over a year, doing it through plateaus and coming back again and again. That's what's actually gonna not only make you better, but that's what leads to satisfaction. There's some fascinating research that has recently been published that shows that perfectionism, which is very close to row optimization, it actually leads to decreased performance, not increased performance. So it's not even neutral. It makes you worse. And the researchers say there's two mechanisms for this. The first is it's exhausting. Because once you open up Pandora's box to optimization, your checklist can grow to infinity. And the second is that it's kind of lonely, because it's all about what can I do. So now, I have to write this certain way. Well, I can't go to the coffee shop to write. Or I can't have a glass of wine with my significant other, because that's not a part of my optimal diet plan. And it just contracts your life more and more and more. And we know that when we're tired and lonely, we don't perform well.

Speaker 3:
[57:21] All right, so let's go back to benefits then, because this brings me to another benefit. I really want to try to hammer this home, because I want people to understand what we're selling here, basically. Because it seems to me, when you have a real disciplined pursuit in your life and doing all the things the way you talked about it, a lot of that optimization stuff that you might have elsewhere in life, that desire goes down, because that desire of like, I have all of these very careful rules and checklists, it's all just trying to scratch the itch of like, I'm efficacious.

Speaker 4:
[57:53] Exerting agency.

Speaker 3:
[57:54] Exerting agency, look, look, I'm able to like, do voluntary things that are hard or whatever, but they're fake hard things that aren't really leading you much, but if you have an actual thing you're doing, like, no, no, I've been working really hard on this, then you don't really feel that urge anymore of like, oh, I better have like 17, you know, my aura ring to make sure that my steps are done and just the right sunlight hours or whatever, like I'm already scratching that itch of being efficacious and agency. So I'm just going to have the glass of wine with my wife because, you know, I'm happy and I had a hard day.

Speaker 4:
[58:25] That's it.

Speaker 3:
[58:26] 100%.

Speaker 4:
[58:26] I couldn't step better myself. Like that, that is a huge value of a disciplined pursuit. Like it is grounding. It helps you immediately not waste time on all the exhausting distractions. It's focusing and you get to exert agency in an increasingly chaotic world, which has its own intrinsic benefits.

Speaker 3:
[58:45] Do you think this helps with technology? So to go back to our original premise, a lot of my listeners feel like they're losing more of their life to screens in a way that's like not adding. It makes them stressed and it numbs them, but in a way that like you feel worse about it afterwards. Does it help? Like do you think the fact that like you are getting after something like this on a regular basis makes the allure of the numbing or these other things less appealing?

Speaker 4:
[59:12] I don't know is the honest answer. I can tell you that the hour to an hour and a half that I'm training, I'm not looking at my phone. So at the very least, you're building an hour, an additional hour into your day of a non-alienated pursuit where you can get really close to the craft that you're working on and that in and of itself is valuable. Whether or not I would use my phone more the rest of the day if I didn't train, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. I mean, maybe in so far as like I'm doing something real and that's another value. Yeah, like everything on the phone is like digital. It's ephemeral. It's quasi real or pseudo real. It's real on the internet, but it is not as real is picking up a weight because you're either going to make the lifter or not. The, the, the orchid that you're growing, you're either going to get the flower or you're not. The table that you're making, it's either going to stand or not. In the garden, like that tree is either going to die or it's not. That is something that is so real. And maybe when you have the satisfaction of doing something that is that real, some of the like ephemeral internet pseudo real, it loses its edge because like, you know it's not as good as the actual thing.

Speaker 3:
[60:22] What about your ambitions in other parts of life? Is this another benefit where if you have something like this going on outside your professional life and now maybe like the, the, the move you and Caitlin made when you moved to Asheville and you sort of redesigned your life, do you have more confidence, more ambition? Like, oh, I'm used to pursuing hard things, doing the work, I believe in myself, I can make change happen. Now you have like a professional opportunity of like, I'm going to leave this job, I'm going to change this here, I'm going to make some sort of significant like whatever leap. Does it open up more possibilities in other parts of your life?

Speaker 4:
[60:55] I think so. I think it gives you, I mean, Matt Crawford has written so well about this. It gives you a sense of self-reliance that is hard to come by, which is I can take on a challenge, I can start as not being very good, I can put in work that I can trace back to myself, I can get better, I can ride out plateaus, I can face my fears that I might fail, and I can keep showing up and doing it.

Speaker 3:
[61:16] Yeah. Okay. So then final question. I feel like I need a better discipline. You got to help me here, Brad. I'm thinking about it because writing is like my main career now. It's not an aside. I have some things I do as hobbies. Maybe I should be turning one of those into a discipline anchor.

Speaker 4:
[61:37] I mean, I would love that. I think you should try to deadlift more. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[61:41] You think it should be weights.

Speaker 4:
[61:42] Well, I don't know. I mean, you're already doing it. So you're already putting time into it. It is extremely concrete in your training age. You're a good rower, but your training age for like true strength training is still very young, which just means that you actually will get those 1% gains for a while, which is fun at the start. So I think that that's a good option. I'm curious, what else? So I recently started, it's so funny, my friends joked that I just started a YouTube channel that's all about deadlifting and bonsai trees. So I mentioned bonsai trees a few times. I recently got into bonsai, and this might be half eyes bigger than your stomach, half eyes not. The half eyes bigger than your stomach is I thought that I'd like go to the Bonsai Society monthly meetings and like help people repot their plants and like really get good at it. And I just don't have time because it turns out to get really good at bonsai takes a shit ton of time. But it's only half eyes bigger than your stomach because I've now had bonsai trees for a winter and they're all alive. They all came back to life. So like I'm doing enough, but that still is like hobby, not really discipline pursuit. And the reason is because my discipline pursuit is strength training. I have my craft and I have my family. There's not enough room in my life. So I think you got to pick the one thing that you actually like really want to do if you're going to do this because your life is already pretty full.

Speaker 3:
[62:56] Yeah, yeah. Well, our common trainer has been, because I told him, I was like, okay, we need to add now. I need to add some sort of goals because later I want to be training for something. I don't know what yet. So we just started adding, you'll appreciate this. What Zach calls indicators. Let's have a couple of indicators.

Speaker 4:
[63:12] KPI's he calls them, Key Performance Indicators.

Speaker 3:
[63:14] And like, let's just have a few that just get better at. And really it's just about the exercise of, all right, I had a sort of fitness goal and we did some specific training for a goal to get better. To me, that's just a mindset shift. Now, ultimately, I don't know if it's going to be fitness will be in my discipline anchor. I want to have something I'm training for that involves being outside. I don't know exactly what it is, but I really like that idea. But I was like, let me just get used to, let's go after some indicators for like six months and just get better at them. Just, that's just like practice for like, while I'm trying to figure out what to do. But I also have other interests, like my super elaborate Halloween animatronic displays. I just bought a bunch more equipment. So maybe that's where I need to make my, my graduation into discipline.

Speaker 4:
[63:55] I'll tell you what, you'll get more status that way. Nobody in Asheville cares what I deadlift, but there's a house on Vermont that is the best Halloween house and everyone knows that house and they talk about it all year long.

Speaker 3:
[64:05] It does, it, it, you're more known, but probably lowers your status as like a reasonable human being because you're the guy who's building really elaborate. It doesn't exactly make people be like, hey, if we go to war, that's my leader.

Speaker 4:
[64:17] Fair.

Speaker 3:
[64:17] Yeah. All right, that's good. So I need to, I need to think about this a little bit more hardly, but I've been convinced, right? Like reading your book, talking to you about this, like this is really important. I think it's important for my audience to think about, this is like a really good buffer against almost all the issues I talk about, whether it's the overload and pseudo productivity in work, whether it's the addiction and digital diversion that's trying to numbing out your life outside of work, whether it's falling into rabbit holes of outrage and anxiety down, you know, on Twitter or something like this.

Speaker 4:
[64:44] You need the discipline. You need the discipline. You know, it's, it's, it is, part of why I wrote the book is like the pursuit of excellence is just this fundamental human need. And I think that people sometimes confuse an excellent result or a standard that is set by a lineage and a craft and has very objective measures. Like I am not an excellent power lifter by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm pursuing excellence. And I can still get all the benefits of the pursuit, even if I'm never going to win a gold medal in, you know, perhaps the foremost benefit. And I think there's a reason that people keep coming back to this chapter is when you have a disciplined practice in your life, you feel grounded and it has all these spillover benefits. And yes, you're sacrificing, but that's part of what allows the benefits. If you weren't sacrificing, then it wouldn't be as meaningful.

Speaker 3:
[65:30] You don't take your mind doesn't take it seriously. Like that maybe that's like another like little trap to throw in there. If there's not something you've had to say no to or a little bit of difficulty involved in what you're doing, it's not really a discipline. It's recreation.

Speaker 4:
[65:44] Yeah, and you see this in not to like take this metaphor too far. We could talk about this topic forever. It's like dating. It's like the kind of nonchalant like I'm never going to commit to anyone. Well, okay, but then like you're never going to get the value of a committed relationship. And we often think about dating and relationships in terms of people, but you can also have a relationship with a craft. Yeah. And in order to get intimate with one craft, you're going to actually have to say no to some others.

Speaker 3:
[66:07] Yeah, but this makes us feel like you're doing bad things with weights.

Speaker 4:
[66:11] Only you, Cal.

Speaker 3:
[66:13] We need more of those hand sanitizer wipes.

Speaker 4:
[66:16] Oh, God, Cal. Cal, Cal, Cal. I didn't think we'd end up here.

Speaker 3:
[66:19] I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[66:19] Some weird things happened in my gym. I don't think it's me, though.

Speaker 3:
[66:22] Yeah. Power lifters have their own world. Let's get there. All right. This is great, Brad. I really appreciate it. Okay. So, I mean, everyone knows you now. You're on the show all the time, but the book is The Way of Excellence. Check out our last episode we did as well about whether or not the internet is undermining our ambition, which generated a lot of feedback. Like people are really interested as well. Check out the book and the podcast, Excellence Actually, which is like all about this stuff. It's Brad along with Steve Magnus and Clay Skipper, and they get into all these types of issues. So always a pleasure to have you here, Brad. Let's go lift some weights. Thanks Cal. All right, Jesse, there we go. That was my conversation with Brad Stulberg. You weren't around that day, and you missed out getting to say hi to Brad, but we could have trained together.

Speaker 5:
[67:11] I know. I want him to give me deadlifting tips.

Speaker 3:
[67:13] I was thinking, here's how it would go down. He would try to one up you by deadlifting some crazy amount of weight, and then you'd be like, hey man, 10K on the rower, let's go. And then you'd get the upper hand again.

Speaker 5:
[67:23] I mean, he can definitely deadlift a lot more than I can.

Speaker 3:
[67:26] Yeah, you cannot last him on the erg. And when society crumbles, and we're all being chased by the zombies, that ability to row to freedom, that's the one that's really going to last. But that was a good, you know, hey, look, I am thinking about it. You have good, you're good with this, Jesse. You have like hard things you work on, completely optional. Do you find this sort of similar effect, like in the training you do, or the sports you play, that being disciplined in those specific areas helps you in general, in other areas of your life, just feel, I don't know, more autonomous or in control or less distractible? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I got to do more of that. All right, when I come back, I'm going to be in massive shape. I'll be swole and disciplined. Good discussion, always happy to have Brad on the show. Okay, so you've heard from me. Now we want to hear from you. As is our tradition on these Monday Advice episodes, after we tackle our main question, we open the show's inbox to get some more direct feedback from you, the listeners and watchers. Now remember, if you have a question or a case study or something you think you might find interesting, you can send it to us at podcastatcalnewport.com. All right, Jesse, what do we got this week?

Speaker 5:
[68:33] Hi, our first message is from Kathleen. It isn't a question, but instead a suggestion for our audience.

Speaker 3:
[68:40] All right, I like suggestions. We get some advice from an audience member here. All right, let's see here. Kathleen says, I recently listened to Deep Questions, episode 394. In it, you mentioned the struggle people have with the abundance of choice in media, and I wanted to share what my husband and I are doing this year to avoid that struggle. We call it monthly movie motifs. We came up with 12 movie motifs or themes. Every month, we choose one and watch three to five movies that fit the theme. Our motifs include things like favorite book, westerns and historical people. Last month was martial arts or as my husband called it, martial arts. There's a note here that says, we have since been divorced. The last draw.

Speaker 5:
[69:26] They must watch it in March.

Speaker 3:
[69:29] It'd be weird otherwise. It'd be funny if it was like last month as my now ex-husband called it, martial arts. We brainstorm theme movies in the narrowed down by personal importance and availability. It's been fun seeking out movies that would not have been on my watch list otherwise. We don't feel overwhelmed by our options or less influenced by the algorithm. I'm passing this along in case other people find it helpful. I appreciate what you do. Your books have improved my life greatly. That's a great idea. I do like any system when it comes to movies or books that gets you reading things that isn't just at the top of your list. It's like, oh my God, I'm so excited to see this. I call this Netflix syndrome. I think it really is an issue in the streaming era where on demand you can get almost anything is that now you set your standards towards, I don't want to watch something unless like I'm very excited about this very specific thing, just solving like exactly an entertainment craving I have right now. And then people get paralyzed because, oh, I can't find something that fits that impossible criteria. And with a library of entertainment that would have exploded the head of like a young Steven Spielberg, you can't find anything you want to watch. So having another thing that forces you to watch interesting things based on criteria beyond just like what is my favorite thing, I think it's a good idea. I did this with Ebert's, Roger Ebert's collection, it's like the 100 Greatest Movies and it's a hundred of his long form reviews of like his 100 favorite movies. And I just started going through those and I just wanted to check off as many as possible. How many did you get to? I don't know, maybe like 20, 25. But it does get, I mean a lot of them I had seen before, but I probably saw at least 20 movies I hadn't seen before. And you want stuff that you wouldn't otherwise watch. Like that's when I first watched, you know, Bonnie and Clyde, critically important movie, but you might not otherwise be on your radar. Like that's when I watched Five Easy Pieces. That's when I watched Fritz Lange's movie M. You want it otherwise, your algorithm, your personal algorithm of like, what is the thing I want to watch most right now? What have selected them? But I remember those movies way more than they're like, oh, this is the perfect show. I can't wait to watch on a streaming service. But I think you could do this with books as well. Trips, restaurants. My wife and I did this during the pandemic, like right as the restaurant started opening again, and it's pretty easy to get reservations. We had this, we're like, let's go to as many of the Michelin starred restaurants in Washington, DC as possible. And again, it puts you to places that you might not have otherwise thought about when you're just like, hey, where do we want to go to dinner?

Speaker 5:
[71:56] Isn't it kind of crazy that the Michelin name is after the tire and how they did that to promote stuff?

Speaker 3:
[72:01] I agree. And that you have these-

Speaker 5:
[72:02] Sounds like such a normal thing.

Speaker 3:
[72:04] Yeah, and it's like these super snooty chefs that are injecting essence of sea foam into bubbles of gelatin trying to get the tire stars. And we want the tire company stars. Yeah, it's crazy. It'd be like, I don't know, being at like the Met Gala where you have all of these fashion designers and the outrageous outfits or whatever. And you're like, well, what I'm really hoping to do is to get like two thumbs up from McDonald's. Like it's kind of random. I hope I can get in Jiffy Lube's book of great fashion this year, but I guess you get used to things. All right, what else do we got?

Speaker 5:
[72:45] Our next message is a reaction to last week's interview with author Amy Timberlake.

Speaker 3:
[72:51] Right. So for those who didn't see it, Amy Timberlake is an award-winning children's author who uses a typewriter. We use that discussion to get in this idea of sometimes downgrading your technology actually upgrades your results. More friction, less options might not make you faster, but might make you better. All right. So Elliot wanted to share his own story of simpler technology. Elliot said, I had to stop listening to the podcast this morning when Cal started talking typewriters right off the bat so I could share my thoughts without being influenced by the discussion. I'm an attorney. He was worried by the way that he wanted to say something pro-typewriter, and he was worried as the interview goes on that Amy Timberlake would be like, my typewriter killed my husband. It would be really inappropriate for Elliot to be really pro-typewriter. All right. Elliot goes on to say, I'm an attorney handling mostly complex commercial litigation. For many years, I have been a mechanical typewriter hobbyist. About 10 years ago, I started integrating typewriters into my workflow. In the AI Addendum episodes, Cal has recently been talking about the importance of staring down a blank page and getting words on it from one's own brain. This is what I use a typewriter for. As often as I can, I write a first draft of any brief or memo on my mechanical typewriter. I love that I'm away from any screens except my remarkable, which has my research files organized on it. It helps me to focus my thoughts and power through the hard spots where it would be tempting on a computer to click over to something more distracting. I also find that as I retype the document into the computer, almost every sentence is improved. It is a built-in step of revising and editing. In other words, I would encourage anyone who thinks and writes for a living to consider typing a typewriter, trying a typewriter for first drafts, I recommend a 1950s Smith Corona. They're ergonomic, easy to type on and widely available. So I looked this up, Jesse, you know, vintage 1950s Smith Coronas. And there's a variety of prices. And I'm imagining the cheaper side, the cheaper side's like between one and $200. Now I assume these are probably like non-functional or barely functional because on the upper end for the same typewriters, it's more like $1,000 to like $1,300. So I bet, I don't know for sure, but I bet that gap is between like a refurbished typewriter that's gonna work and a vintage typewriter, but it might not actually type. Amy, you said something about like replacing the pads. I don't know what that means. It does look like people are manufacturing ribbons for those though. So you can still buy new ribbon for your old typewriter. Maybe we'll have to try this out, typewriters. I like to use the Remarkable as well. I still really like my Remarkable.

Speaker 5:
[75:20] I was gonna ask that, you still use it?

Speaker 3:
[75:21] I use it, I like it.

Speaker 5:
[75:22] You've been using it for a few years now.

Speaker 3:
[75:24] Yeah, they gave me a new one. And then the newer one, the Paper Pro or something Pro is really good. Yeah, I mean, I really love the writing surface. It has colors now. I'm a remarkable fan and I love the feel of the writing. I mean, it's kind of ridiculously expensive. But I like mine. All right, do we have another message?

Speaker 5:
[75:44] Yeah, we do. Our next message is from Andrew who tells us about a success with what he calls an information walkabout.

Speaker 3:
[75:51] That's interesting. All right, let's see what Andrew has to say here. At the beginning of 2025, I went on an information walkabout where I systematically extracted myself from compulsive phone usage. In the end, I got a light phone too, a small e-ink dumb phone. It does text and calls and that's it. I still have my old smartphone, which is like a household tablet now, kept in the attic office for indulgences. It remains completely necessary for certain digital tickets to live events. I also still have a work smartphone, which is mostly necessary for authentication of other work applications. My family teases me that I tried to get rid of my phone, and now I have three. They are a bit like Voldemort's horcruxes. I've divided the multitude of tasks usually present on a single device into three, weakening the pull of the digital world. I'm not sure if that metaphor completely tracks there, but okay. On top of this, I bought a desktop computer, so digital consumption is spatially confined to the attic office. It has been a resounding success. I highly recommend it. The distribution of three phones in remote places in the house greatly reduces impulsive consumption. However, when they are around, old habits return, so you have to remain vigilant. All right, I like that story. Again, it goes to this idea we talked about in last week's episode, which is we don't know what we mean when we say productivity. The technology industry has convinced us that productivity has to do with speed, reduced friction, and options. Again, I've argued this before. This is essentially the definition of what productivity means to a computer processor. How quickly can it process through instructions, and how do you make sure that the amount of different instructions that are available are as much as possible, and get the most out of the processor? This doesn't translate well over to cognitive human activities. That's just the reality of it. Our bottleneck on almost anything important we do is not friction in the moment. It's not having more options. It tends to be our cognitive context, actually getting our brain to cooperate, doing something abstract. So we see things like this come up time and again. You look at a setup and say, well, that's more complicated. That's going to increase more friction. That is not giving you any capabilities you couldn't already just do by having one powerful phone. Why can't you just moderate the way you use that phone? But that is a cognitive blind way of thinking about productivity, productivity while ignoring the reality of the human brain. The bottleneck again is often, can I muster and sustain focus on the thing that's most important? And sometimes having more friction and less options is the way to actually open that bottleneck and get better work done. So I appreciate, was this Andrew? I appreciate that case study. All right, before we go for today, as I like to do at the end of Monday episodes is to check in briefly at how things are going here with me and the Deep Work HQ. Jesse, my sabbatical is looming. Semester ends in a couple weeks. My number one project on the top of the queue for my sabbatical is finishing this upgrade of the HQ. So we got all the, I moved all the stuff here in boxes. So I think that's a good first step. Then there's just a small detail of actually opening the boxes and installing everything.

Speaker 5:
[78:49] How many sabbaticals have you had?

Speaker 3:
[78:50] This is my second.

Speaker 5:
[78:52] The first one was how many years ago?

Speaker 3:
[78:55] Well, it would have been seven.

Speaker 5:
[78:56] Every seven years?

Speaker 3:
[78:57] Yeah, so it's every-

Speaker 5:
[78:59] I didn't realize it was every seven years.

Speaker 3:
[79:00] Yeah, so they actually borrow, the sabbatical borrows the timing from the Bible. So this is from, I don't know, Leviticus or Exodus. It's early Bible stuff. In the academic setting, it's typically six years of service earns a sabbatical. So after six years' worth of, so 12 semesters of teaching. So you really have to count the semesters because you might have leave in there for other things or like maternity or paternity leave or whatever. So obviously that doesn't count, but it's like 12 semesters of working earns you a semester, Georgetown at least, a semester sabbatical at full pay or a two semester sabbatical at half pay. And so I'm doing the two semester sabbatical at half pay so I can take off the full year. But step number one, renovate the office. Step number two, I am working on a new book. Once I'm almost done with the deep life edits and then I'm going to switch right away into research for my next book. So talk about more later. I'm also bringing more of my techno criticism and digital theory into the academic realm as well. So I'm going to be working on some, in addition to like my normal public facing writing, have some papers in the docket for various sort of academic or academic adjacent venues. So a lot of thinking, a lot of writing.

Speaker 5:
[80:22] Like the real technical stuff you're doing or more of the...

Speaker 3:
[80:24] No, so not like my technical computer science, but like my digital criticism. So like the academic versions of some of the theories and ideas we might talk about like on the show or on the page of The New Yorker. I'm also going to do some academic audience work as well. So a lot of thinking, a lot of writing. I'm really looking forward to it. And a lot of NBA Jam. We got an NBA Jam, an arcade cabinet so that we jump in and play a game. We're going to get good at that. I'm going to master that game. All right. What have I been reading? I finished Michael Pollan's new book about consciousness. Interesting. It's a hard topic. You know, a lot of times in his books, he can really himself get into what's going on. It's, you know, his last book, you really hear about his encounters with psychedelics, you know, omnivorous dilemma. He goes on these four different missions to try to understand a relationship to food. Can't really do any of that with consciousness and it's a really complicated field. So I think there's a really good book. It was really hard to try to organize all these different thoughts. And I really like his sort of pro-human stance too. He's not very impressed by attempts at AI consciousness and why people, engineers who think that they're getting consciousness in AI are far, far off the mark. So I really appreciate that as well. But there's less for him to do personally. And the scientists weren't interesting. This is really a problem, I think, with scientists. But he had to end up in that place where he visits a lot of scientists. Clearly, the conversations weren't that quotable. And you do that thing where you make the scientists in your writing into like sages. And as I left, he turned and said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, like, why statement or whatever. As opposed to like some books where like the scientists have an interesting arc in story themselves. You can kind of get into their lives and the complexity of what they're working on. Kind of like he got into the farmer Joel Salatin and omnivores dilemma. Not really the case here. I think the scientists were like cardboard cutouts to deliver the research. And then he would just, it was always like, as he walked away with a wink, they said whatever, the sort of sage, nomic, Yoda style treatment of the scientists, which was okay. But anyways, worth reading. I've been thinking a lot about AI consciousness. So I'm glad I read it.

Speaker 5:
[82:33] Follow up from last week, did you read the Altman article?

Speaker 3:
[82:35] I haven't read it yet.

Speaker 5:
[82:36] I did.

Speaker 3:
[82:37] Yeah? All right.

Speaker 5:
[82:38] It's long.

Speaker 3:
[82:39] This is for people who don't know, this is Ronan Farrow's and Andrew Marant's long article about Sam Altman, who I didn't realize, I listened to them on Ed Zitron's podcast. So Ed Zitron interviewed Ronan and Andrew. And what I didn't realize, cause I haven't read it yet, is like Sam Altman cooperated. Like he did a lot of interviews with him.

Speaker 5:
[82:59] Yeah, he did.

Speaker 3:
[83:00] It wasn't a nice article though, right?

Speaker 5:
[83:05] Yeah, maybe not. But I think I'd be interested in your take once you read it. I mean, the one thing I, he's really rich, huh?

Speaker 3:
[83:13] I guess on paper.

Speaker 5:
[83:14] Cause he, but I think he has like investments in a bunch of other stuff that was done from Y Combinator all over the years. And he has like a $25 million car.

Speaker 3:
[83:22] You can buy a $25 million car?

Speaker 5:
[83:24] And he has like a $2 million car.

Speaker 3:
[83:26] I didn't know you could buy it. I guess I could imagine a $2 million car. $25 million car. Is it, it's basically just covered in diamonds?

Speaker 5:
[83:34] I don't know. I think I read it right. But it was like, yeah, a $2 million car and a $20 million car.

Speaker 3:
[83:40] It's a Toyota Prius on which, on the roof encased in plastic is a minor work from Michelangelo. So that's why the car is worth $25 million. It's just a flex. So I guess the point of that article was really to try to get at what actually happened during that period where he got kicked off, fired by the board and then he came back. Because I guess, I didn't realize that that was basically a mystery. There was very little was said in public about why he was pushed out and why he came back. So I guess that's really what they were trying to figure out.

Speaker 5:
[84:13] And it gave a lot of the history too with Paul Graham and Y Combinator and what he did before and that sort of thing. His first failed, or I don't know if it was failed, but his first venture in the social media company that he had before he like led Y Combinator and stuff.

Speaker 3:
[84:28] It kind of, not that he stumbled into OpenAI, but it was like a nonprofit that his other rich tech friends were like putting money into, right? And he was like...

Speaker 5:
[84:35] Well, he and Elon were talking a lot in the beginning. Now I think they hate each other.

Speaker 3:
[84:38] They hate, but it was like, hey, it wasn't considered, I don't know, I get this sense that unlike the hard charging tech CEOs, this was like, this isn't a for-profit company originally. It's like, oh, we should, we're worried about AI, we're rationalists, we're on the West Coast, we're influenced by these type of thinkers. Let's like have this non-profit that like Elon and other people are gonna put a lot of money into, like, oh, Sam, you can run this thing, right? It wasn't, they weren't thinking of this as like, this is gonna be a hundred billion dollar business or whatever, right? So it's not like in a lot of these stories, you get like the hard charging CEO who starts from scratch, this huge thing and is super ambitious and grows it really big, where this was like, oh, you could be in charge of this sleepy non-profit. And then they scale up GPT-2 and like, oh my God, look at what this thing can do. And they weren't ready for what happened after that.

Speaker 5:
[85:22] It talks about how in the beginning, he recruited a bunch of employees due to the safety aspect. You know, you know, they weren't going to get paid as much as, you know, from Google and other places.

Speaker 3:
[85:33] Yeah, and then they got upset. Yeah, I mean, Dario Amadei was one of his employees.

Speaker 5:
[85:36] Yeah, he's mentioned a lot. Yeah, and his wife.

Speaker 3:
[85:40] All right, well, I'm going to read it. I'm trying to visit the New Yorker building coming up in a New York trip. So what if I run into Andrew or Ronan in the hallway? I need to have read the article. So all right, I'll read on the train there. That'd be perfect. All right, well, that's all the time we have for today. We have a AI reality check episode probably coming on Thursday. So stay tuned for that. And we'll be back with another Monday Advice in the episode, The Monday That Follows. Until then, as always, stay deep.