transcript
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Speaker 7:
[01:14] It's the Saints and the Ains.
Speaker 8:
[01:15] I told myself, I said, she gon start off with this song today. It was the hat that gave you away.
Speaker 7:
[01:21] I don't know what they got to do.
Speaker 8:
[01:22] The hat is just, you know.
Speaker 7:
[01:23] We need the Lord find the Lord. By identifying the two different demographics that are engaging in this conversation today. Which is the Saints and the Ains.
Speaker 8:
[01:33] Realistically, do you think it's a lot of Ains to listen to our podcast?
Speaker 7:
[01:36] No.
Speaker 8:
[01:37] You just like to acknowledge them?
Speaker 7:
[01:38] No, I think they are Ains that don't know it yet because they serve in church.
Speaker 8:
[01:45] Oh my gosh. Why does she just come for y'all next?
Speaker 7:
[01:47] No, it's not even Che. I just think the form of godliness is a thing. So you engage with religious things without necessarily having the eternal substance that matches what you do externally. Shout out to you though. But this is a part of that process. God is able to like, solve, remove the scales and show you that you were living according to your own righteousness.
Speaker 8:
[02:13] So basically what you're trying to say, people be singing that song with you and not really realizing they are Ains.
Speaker 7:
[02:18] For sure.
Speaker 8:
[02:18] Wow.
Speaker 7:
[02:19] Because who wants to be a Ains?
Speaker 8:
[02:20] It's the saints, Andy. Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[02:22] You know, sometimes I think about this really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really random. But we were watching something the other day where somebody was breaking into somebody's house. Did you take the dog out?
Speaker 8:
[02:32] I did.
Speaker 7:
[02:33] Okay.
Speaker 8:
[02:34] He's tweaking.
Speaker 7:
[02:35] We was watching something the other day when somebody was breaking into somebody else. I was like, I don't know if you ever told that story. We don't have time for you to tell the story, but one day we're going to tell the story again about how Preston broke into that man house and how that man was there.
Speaker 8:
[02:46] Yeah.
Speaker 9:
[02:47] Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[02:47] Story time with Preston Perry. I was doing a lot of crazy things.
Speaker 7:
[02:50] After the Lord redeemed you and now you worship. Just like Trip Lee.
Speaker 9:
[02:55] Hey, I like that. I like that segue.
Speaker 2:
[02:57] You're so light skinned.
Speaker 9:
[02:58] I know. God made me like, no.
Speaker 7:
[03:01] Are you bi-racial?
Speaker 9:
[03:01] I really look like this. What happened?
Speaker 7:
[03:03] Who's white in your family? Somebody's white.
Speaker 9:
[03:06] I've never met them. Now I am. Now look, I know black people always say this, but this is real. I have receipts.
Speaker 7:
[03:15] Okay.
Speaker 9:
[03:15] I am one eighth Cherokee.
Speaker 7:
[03:18] Okay.
Speaker 9:
[03:19] My grandmother was half Cherokee.
Speaker 7:
[03:20] You are a little red. Yeah.
Speaker 9:
[03:22] My grandmother's half Cherokee. Hot cheekbones, no beard.
Speaker 7:
[03:25] I can see that.
Speaker 9:
[03:25] No, it checks out a little.
Speaker 8:
[03:26] Jackie just be saying the darnest things.
Speaker 7:
[03:28] No, the lighter you are, I'm like, you got some white up in there.
Speaker 9:
[03:31] Yeah, I mean, look. Like recently. I haven't met them. They hiding. I ain't met them.
Speaker 7:
[03:36] Anyway.
Speaker 9:
[03:37] I would like to, at some point, maybe when we're done, hear this story about you breaking in somebody's house and they there though. Because I was engaged by that. I did feel like I was just sitting with y'all in the living room for a second. I thought I was just watching the podcast.
Speaker 7:
[03:48] I feel like he's told it, but I just kind of, I think we got new people that haven't heard it.
Speaker 8:
[03:52] You want me to tell it now?
Speaker 7:
[03:54] We have a guest. It's up to the guest.
Speaker 8:
[03:56] You want to hear it?
Speaker 9:
[03:57] I would love to hear it, but I don't have to be on the podcast. It's up to y'all. I'm a guest.
Speaker 7:
[04:00] You can tell it afterwards.
Speaker 8:
[04:01] I'll tell it afterwards.
Speaker 7:
[04:02] We'll tell y'all next week.
Speaker 9:
[04:03] How's that? Yep.
Speaker 7:
[04:04] Okay. Trip Lee, you got a new album coming out. What's the name of your album?
Speaker 10:
[04:09] For Your Glory.
Speaker 9:
[04:11] Bragg Worship is the umbrella for the worship stuff I'm doing and the title of the album is For Your Glory.
Speaker 7:
[04:17] Are you singing?
Speaker 9:
[04:19] A little bit. Not mostly though. So on a couple songs I am.
Speaker 7:
[04:24] Okay.
Speaker 9:
[04:24] Because there were a couple demos where people were like, no, it's because my goal was like, I'm going to just Kirk Franklin-ness without being a generational genius. But I'm like, I'm going to write, produce these songs and then I'm going to just get people to sing them. I don't want people being able to see them in a worship space to be limited by my limited vocals. But it was a few of them that people were like, no, you got to stay on this one. So it's a couple.
Speaker 7:
[04:49] Most of y'all know Trip as an author, a pastor. I don't know if you're pastoring now.
Speaker 9:
[04:55] I'm not pastoring now. Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[04:57] Pastoral gifting, Bible teacher and rapper. This seems new for you to be venturing into the worship.
Speaker 8:
[05:06] Speaking of rapper, I want to just quickly say, I told y'all this before the podcast started. I want to say it in real time. Our first out-of-show show with one another as friends.
Speaker 7:
[05:18] Out of town?
Speaker 8:
[05:19] Out of town show that wasn't in LA or Chicago, was in Ohio at a Trip Lee concert.
Speaker 7:
[05:25] Oh wow.
Speaker 8:
[05:27] And this had to be-
Speaker 7:
[05:27] We were openers.
Speaker 8:
[05:28] Yeah, so like-
Speaker 7:
[05:29] No, I wasn't actually. I think I was a supporter.
Speaker 8:
[05:31] No, we were openers. Like, so I tell people all the time, when we first started off with spoken word poetry, especially in those early days when our poems went viral, people didn't know how to place us. And we came like second fiddle to the Christian Raptors. So like people will literally book us just for y'all breathing room. Like, you needed like space in the end of the day, so throw a poem up there.
Speaker 9:
[05:57] That was funny.
Speaker 8:
[05:58] And that was the first time I met you. That had to be like 2011, a long time ago. And you were just real quiet and they told me like you're introverted. So I was like, all right, I'm going to talk to them.
Speaker 9:
[06:09] If I gave off don't talk to me energy, I apologize.
Speaker 8:
[06:11] No, it's all good. Throughout the years, I got to know you. You know what I'm saying? And like, you're just like my wife. Y'all are, y'all part personnel is like, but yeah, I remember that. It was like the first out of time show me and Jackie Hill together. It was Ohio. That dude, what was his name? Opposition in my face. I feel like there was a little person there. Trying to play the fence. I'm bigger than this dude. I aired Jordan on it.
Speaker 7:
[06:30] You know what I said?
Speaker 8:
[06:32] K-Drama.
Speaker 7:
[06:33] Was there a little person there?
Speaker 8:
[06:35] Yes, and the promoter was a little person. You remember this?
Speaker 9:
[06:41] I do. Because I remember them being at other events too, other stuff around that.
Speaker 8:
[06:45] Yeah, that's crazy. First day I met you, man. 2011.
Speaker 7:
[06:49] I'll tell the truth that when I became a Christian, I was immediately introduced to him, to Lecrae, Flame, Dizzle. Not even The Truth came later. What I liked about you, I was like, oh, he country and he sound worldly. Telling the truth. And it was like, it was a 2020 album because I just remember it looked like you was on Mars or something. It was like a little space bubble. Yeah. And I was like, oh.
Speaker 8:
[07:14] That's a great album, by the way.
Speaker 7:
[07:15] I don't know where he from, but he sound like us.
Speaker 9:
[07:17] And so shout out to you.
Speaker 7:
[07:18] I appreciate that.
Speaker 9:
[07:20] I appreciate that.
Speaker 8:
[07:21] Now you said...
Speaker 9:
[07:21] But, you know, there may be lots of things that I do, but y'all too, I mean, I can think of many different eras. I was like, oh, I didn't know they did this too. Oh, I didn't know they also did this. I didn't know they also did this. I love that.
Speaker 7:
[07:34] It's kind of like the Lord.
Speaker 8:
[07:35] Well, speaking of that, you said something about the worship. You said you wrote these worship songs?
Speaker 9:
[07:40] Yes.
Speaker 8:
[07:41] Wow. So that's, I'm really intrigued by that. Have you always kind of had a gift of writing songs like that? Is that something that you developed over the years?
Speaker 9:
[07:51] This is something I developed over the years. It was something that I wanted to do for a long time, but felt like I don't know how to do this.
Speaker 8:
[07:58] Wow.
Speaker 9:
[07:58] When I was in college, I was part of a urban church plant. I was real young, hip-hop influenced. The songs we sang together, the worship songs felt like they were so at the center of our time together. It was like when we were evangelizing, we were singing these songs. We were in small groups who were singing these songs. Sunday morning, it felt like some of our richest time together. And this church had, from the beginning, which church plants normally don't have, they had amazing musicians that could take those songs and make them feel like us. So they were taking CCM songs, making them feel more like us. They were taking traditional gospel stuff, making them feel more like us. And I was just always like, man, I wish there were more songs that felt more like us. I wish that the categories didn't always feel so firm. But at that time, I was like, but I don't write worship songs. And I was like, I'm not going to ask somebody to send me a trap beat to write worship songs to. So I don't even know where I would start. And we had a couple of people in the church who were starting to write stuff. And so that was just something that had been on my heart and mind for a long time. I also was at a church in DC for a season, about four years, this church, completely different. No drums, old hymns. Took me a very long time to be able to connect with those. But again, I was like, man, there's some rich truth in these old hymns. Now I would, you know, sometimes getting disagreements with the disagreement sounds strong, but I would be like, hey, pastor, this song has beautiful truth and the melody is a funeral. And I wish that, yeah, I just wish that there was a way for this to connect more to me and how I'm interacting with it. And when I held Planet Church in Atlanta, we didn't have amazing musicians at first. And you know, so it was hard to have songs that really felt like us. So anyway, through all these seasons, I'm like, man, I would love to, I just see the gift that songs are to God's people when they gather together. And I wonder if I could ever do that.
Speaker 8:
[09:50] That's dope. I love seeing people who've been known musically in a different space, to kind of venture into another space. Because it just shows you how complex and how creative God has made us. That's dope. I'm excited to hear it.
Speaker 7:
[10:04] What's ironic is I was listening to this sermon before I came downstairs from John Mark Comer about Jesus in the wilderness. And he quoted this passage from the Screw Tape Letters where the senior demon is telling the little intermediate demon that two things that Satan hates is silence and music. And I guess I'm wondering, what do you think about worship? How has that developed? What is your theology of worship and how has that led you to this point?
Speaker 9:
[10:37] Yeah, I think, I think initially when I was first, I became Christian, I was like 14. And, you know, I knew I didn't really like the songs that they sang in big church, which I was calling at the time. We was going to youth church and in youth church, we would, there was stuff that felt more like stuff I liked, but you know, it was Kirk Franklin stuff. He was able to spread him and stuff. Still some of my favorite songs. And then remixing random songs. I remember, you know, that Gap Band song, Outstanding.
Speaker 7:
[11:10] That was an offering song.
Speaker 9:
[11:13] I never knew it was a Gap Band song because we sung the Christian version of it. And then one day I was like, Charlie Wilson stole this from my worship leader.
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Speaker 9:
[13:23] But I didn't think, I think I thought maybe it was just another fun moment of services that happened. I think it was when I was in college, and was part of that church plant. And I started to see how important it was to kind of the life of what we were doing. That's when how I thought about it began to change. And I think, I've been saying like, if there was one thing that this project did, and it just gives me opportunity to have these conversations, is I think we undervalue the importance of singing when God's people gather together. I think we do not fully appreciate the importance of that.
Speaker 7:
[13:58] Tell us more.
Speaker 9:
[13:59] I think we, yeah, I think some of us treat it like it's like a fun, fluffy part that happens before the serious gospel work. You know, I had a friend who's like, true, like, do we have to sing in church? I was like, why? He was like, I don't like it. I don't like the songs my church sings. I don't think they sound that good. I don't connect with these songs. Can I just show up when it's time for the sermon? And I think a lot of people, even if they don't say that, that is kind of how we think. We think like, oh, if I'm running a little bit late, I'll still be there for like the message. That's the main part. I think some of us think almost like out of Western Church, we had all this stuff. We got lights and fog and we sing songs. And it's like, well, no, no, no, no. That part is not a Western, that's not a new thing. That is something God commands us to do. So yeah, we do have to sing songs. And it's also not just an emotional part of the service. It's not, I think even pastors make this mistake, where they like think about shepherding every part of the life of the church. And they think about all the discipling. And they're like, oh, but you know, worship leaders used to do this thing. And then we'll get to the serious gospel work. The Bible, I think, is treating the songs we sing together as how God is discipling his church in some ways. It's part of the big gospel work. So I think of Colossians 3. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and singing with gratitude to the Lord. So it's like, if the word of Christ is supposed to dwell in us richly, one of the ways we're teaching and admonishing each other with that word is singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. And so sometimes I want to encourage dudes especially who don't like to sing in church. What you're doing is you're not just kind of opting out of the part of service you don't like, you're disobeying God's clear command. You're not just robbing God of glory, you're also robbing other people in the congregation of getting to hear God's people sing to him. Because it is us singing with gratitude to God, but it's also singing to one another. There's something that happens when we're singing God's truth to one another together. And so that like over time has just become a really strong conviction of mine, even pastoring. While pastoring, I'm seeing no one is ever going to, I don't know, music has access to our whole self in a way that just words don't. I mean, and we know this kind of instinctively. There's songs that you haven't heard since you were seven that you remember all the words. No one is ever on a Thursday morning driving to work and reciting the words to my third point of my sermon. They're just not doing that. There's a way that music gets in us. There's something special there. I'm like, that's a tool in my tool belt to help God's people grow that I don't want to let go of. I was talking to a girl one time. She was like, hey, Trip, you know, I struggle with depression and anxiety. I've been struggling to read God's word, and I've been struggling to pray this week. And she said, but on Sunday, when we came and we were singing these songs, and I got to hear hundreds of people singing God's truth, I was reminded that, oh, God's goodness, that I've been wrestling with sin. This is a reminder. We're all walking in this together. And it was almost like a way for us to bear each other's burdens, to sing God's truth to one another when we're having difficulty doing it ourselves.
Speaker 7:
[17:21] Yeah, I do think you bringing up the point of men struggling in worship, I think it can be a temperament thing. I think it's gender, but temperament, because I think worshiping or singing out loud has a vulnerability to it.
Speaker 8:
[17:38] And I was going to say that too. I was going to say that too, because it's like, I don't mean to be funny, but some people sound like a coughing motorcycle when they sing.
Speaker 7:
[17:45] Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[17:46] And it's not like...
Speaker 7:
[17:46] Why are you saying that?
Speaker 8:
[17:48] Some people just don't sound good.
Speaker 7:
[17:50] What's that got to do with you? What's that got to do with you living up your hands and giving God glory?
Speaker 8:
[17:55] What I'm saying is, I feel like I know the Lord probably receives it, but I don't feel like my singing is joyful. It doesn't sound joyful.
Speaker 7:
[18:04] Oh, so you're embarrassed.
Speaker 8:
[18:06] I feel like it's a distraction when you get it. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 9:
[18:10] I think it's a fair question.
Speaker 8:
[18:12] Because I had a family member. So I applaud him because he had no shame.
Speaker 9:
[18:21] Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[18:22] But the way he sung, we made fun of every week because it sounded like somebody was snatching his big toe off every time he hit a note. He sounded like a dog. You know what I'm saying? Got hurt. He heard a dog got hurt and they had a... That's the note that he stated.
Speaker 9:
[18:53] That was the only note.
Speaker 8:
[18:54] That's the only note.
Speaker 7:
[18:54] This is the way you are reinforcing so many people's insecurities.
Speaker 8:
[18:57] So listen, what I'm not trying to do, I'm not trying to say don't sing in church. I'm just saying if you can't sing well, probably like low.
Speaker 7:
[19:04] What do you got to say?
Speaker 9:
[19:07] No. So, and I'm not going to say the names, I have a really close friend who we, anytime we, and we didn't live in the same city, we'd go to conferences sometimes, but anytime it would be like, hey Christ alone, I hope it's fine. And me and my other friend were always like.
Speaker 8:
[19:27] In all seriousness, can it be a distraction? That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 9:
[19:30] Yes, it can. But I think, I think the part that makes it a joyful noise is not that it sounds good, it's the heart that it's coming from. And if it was necessary for us to have singing talent, to obey this command, then God would have made very specific. All the commands of scripture to sing to the Lord, a new song, to sing praises to the Lord. None of them are as long as you have these particular gifts. So I want to go so far to say is music and singing is an important part of your following Jesus, that you cannot ignore. Music has to be a part of how you follow Jesus because he commands it.
Speaker 8:
[20:16] That's convicting.
Speaker 7:
[20:17] Why do you think it's, one, I think it's helpful to define terms. So what is worship and why is it important?
Speaker 9:
[20:25] Yeah. The way, one of the things that I, and I even wrestled with whether I wanted to call this brag worship or not, because I think, I was talking about this with my daughter, we were talking about Sundays and I'm like, you know, how was service at? She'd be like, oh, I like the worship, I like the, and we, I've already started saying, hey, so let's just be clear when we say that, what you're meaning right now is the music. There's nothing in the Bible that talks about singing as more worship than the rest of us worshiping Jesus. But it is a way that we worship Jesus. People call it worship music. We know what we mean by that. Worship is, so it's not like music, it's not like a genre of music, it's not a particular sound. Worship is responding to God's greatness. Worship is acknowledging the greatness of God. And we know in the Old Testament, the kind of groups of words that they use for worship, some of them had to do with service, some of them had to do with bowing and reverence. And some of that had to do with the ways that God commanded people to worship in the Old Testament, in the temple and in the tabernacle. And in the New Testament, it talks about worship, it, as we know, is saying, let all of your life be a reasonable service to God, so that every ounce of every day is us trying to acknowledge the greatness of God. When I wake my kids up, I want to do it in such a way that acknowledges how incredible God is. And so even when God's people worship come together, we want all of it to be worship. That's what God has made us to do, is to make much of him. I call it a brag worship because the Bible, that's been the theme in my music for a long time, talking about bragging on the Lord. And then hip hop is so boastful. We know how rappers are. If there was like bragging Olympics, rappers with gold medal every year. And it's very impressive actually, how good rappers are bragging. And so I always felt like if this is a boastful art form, I want to boast in the Lord. The scripture is clear on that. And I thought that's a good way to talk about what we do when we sing together. And worship is making much of God.
Speaker 8:
[22:39] You got a question? I want to ask you.
Speaker 9:
[22:41] Does that answer your question? I mean, you can... I'm trying not to like talk too long.
Speaker 8:
[22:46] I want you to...
Speaker 7:
[22:47] Because you done did all the work. But I guess I'm really interested on why God has created and instituted music as a form of worship. Because I was even thinking about it yesterday. Music means a lot to me. It just always has. And yesterday, I was really processing some really hard things. And what was helping me process well was music. But it was... I think the difficulty is that the music was producing certain emotions that wouldn't have been produced by a sermon per se, but it also was leading me into prayer because those emotions were present. And I was like, I think this is one of the reasons why we have the Psalms, because it just gives us language for what's happening within our bodies. And I think that's an aspect. And I'm just curious on what you think about that.
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Speaker 9:
[24:44] Yes, that's definitely an aspect. I wish I could remember a couple of passages off top, but there are passages where the Psalms are talking about tuning instruments to mourning. It's like, what is it about music that like accesses our emotions in some unique way to where it should be a part of how we mourn? In times when musicians playing for David as he's in a season of mourning, it's like it's not something that we came up with. There's some way that God has made us in a way where, I mean, where for whatever reason sounds and rhythm and time have a profound effect on us. I mean, and we see it like one of my favorite passages in the Red Sea, Pharaoh chasing after Israel, right? They're behind them, Red Sea in front of them. God splits the Red Sea miraculously. They walk through on dry ground, the wall of water, wall of water. They just walk, God made a little street. They get through and then God crashes the Red Sea in on them, which is miraculous, incredible. And the first thing they do when they get to the other side, they don't just talk about it. They don't just say, man, God is good. They don't just send it to the group chat. They sing. And they sing these beautiful words, like, God is a man of war. Pharaoh and his chariots have been thrown into the sea. And it's like, there's something about the glory of what God just did that just saying words wasn't enough. That there's something about the beautiful poetic language and the singing together that is able to praise God in such beautiful ways. And we notice in all of culture like music and especially singing together is in stuff that we enjoy. If you go to a concert, obviously people singing together and it like, you feel something emotionally. Basketball games, defense, you know, just chanting together. It's a unifying thing. And that's not by accident. And God is like, one of the reasons I gave you all that is so you can make much of me. Yeah. And it just connects to us. I love that.
Speaker 8:
[26:49] That's fire.
Speaker 9:
[26:49] That's fire.
Speaker 8:
[26:50] Yeah. My next question is...
Speaker 9:
[26:52] Oh, can I say one thing I just forgot about? Please. Because my five-year-old yesterday, when something scary is on TV, so he, I applaud him, he knows himself. So he knows when he's going to get scared. His name is Silas. He got glasses. I never want my kids to have glasses when they were little because it can look a little crazy, but he's very cute. And he, when something scary is on, he doesn't cover his eyes, he covers his ears. And so sometimes he thinks something is about to be scary, like we were watching America's Funniest Home Videos yesterday. The music they put under was kind of ominous. And it's like there's something about how that music sounded that like made him think like, uh-oh, here comes a scary thing. And I just think it's interesting that we have an innate sense for what certain kinds of music do to us emotionally. And I think the more like, I don't know, depending on what kind of theological circles you in, you may think that anything emotional that comes along with worship must be suspect. Like, if it does something to us emotionally that it wouldn't do without music, then that must be negative, as if God didn't create us this way.
Speaker 8:
[28:00] He's teaching, boy.
Speaker 9:
[28:01] I think what we should be more concerned with is that those things are matching up. And what they're producing in us is a love for God and a brokenness before God and not something counterfeit. And we're not convincing ourselves because we only had an emotional experience. But yes, that's on purpose.
Speaker 7:
[28:17] Can I say something here? Because I wrote a paper. I might have said this on the podcast before a couple of years ago. And I was trying to answer the question, is God's presence dependent on the worship styles of the church or something? And one thing I started to discover is that there are some musical styles that feel more oily, feel more powerful. And it isn't necessarily that it has more power or more oil, because when God's people are gathered, God's presence is there regardless. I think what we're experiencing is, I think there are some songs that give more room for sali and then more space for what feels like presence, because some songs lean more intellectual. I think some lean more emotive. Both are beautiful, but I think we sometimes, especially when you grew up in a country like me, I think you'll be like, nah, oil is on that, oil ain't on that hymn. Oil is on that, oil ain't on that liturgy. It's like, nah, one is tapping into different parts of your brain and your body. It doesn't make it less powerful.
Speaker 8:
[29:24] That's very interesting to me. Yeah, because what's crazy is when you were listening to the guy you just said you were listening to, John or whatever, and he was like, two things that the enemy hates is music and silence. I was brushing my teeth, but I was like, Jackie, that part, I listened to that part. And then I think what he said next, he was like, because the devil he hates, like he loves chaos. He loves things to be noisy and disorderly. And so I think with that being said, I think to what you just said, I think I never thought about that. I think creating an environment for people, hearts to kind of be bare, to be still, to be reflective. And so it's probably not more so about necessarily music, but how music helps us and prepares our heart to be, to respond to the Lord. You know, I'm just processing, but I think that's deep to me.
Speaker 7:
[30:22] How has pain, I guess, developed your relationship with worship?
Speaker 9:
[30:29] That's a great question. I think some of the vulnerability, even though we were just talking about that comes with singing, especially with other people. There is, yeah, I'll say this, part of it is when I look in the Bible and I see the songs that we have in here, like there's a whole songbook in the Bible.
Speaker 7:
[30:50] Right, what's it called?
Speaker 9:
[30:52] The Psalms. And that songbook is not, it's full of pain. You know, I say sometimes you might go to church on Sunday and all the songs sound like the Lego song. Everything is awesome. And it feels like if we're gonna engage with God honestly and talk about how good he is, we kind of have to like forget about all the hard stuff and the pain. And then we have this moment, which I think we can treat engaging with God like that sometimes. I don't think that's what God wants us to do. I think God wants us to bring that pain in with us and then stand it up next to him and his goodness and to think about how he speaks to it. And so like for me, when I, so that's helpful for me because when I begin to write, even in how I want to worship God and want to lead people to worship God, it feels inauthentic if I'm not being honest about how hard life is. You know, so much of my last, I don't know how long it's been, 17 years that I've had a chronic illness. So much of how I begin to write and express anything, it's almost like I can't not talk about this, this here too. And then I look in the Bible and I'm like, well, there's all this pain that's there too. You know, I was thinking about Asaph, like there's these 10 songs of Asaph, right when the, in the third book of Psalms, it's like 73 to 83. And all of them are just like heartbreaking. Like 74, you know, like, you know, sometimes people like want to just open up to the Psalms, like as a happy devotional. And I'm like, you may open it up and just pick one and be like, everybody hates me. I wish I was never born, you know, but seven, Psalm 74, why have you rejected us forever, God? That's the first verse. Or Psalm 77.
Speaker 7:
[32:45] I don't think that would get a double word.
Speaker 9:
[32:48] I cry aloud to God, aloud to God and he will hear me. I sought the Lord in my day of trouble. My hands were continually lifted up all night long. I refuse to be comforted. I think of God, I groan. I meditate, my spirit becomes weak. He goes on and on about how he's in this deep distress. And I want people to find comfort in the fact that this is what the songs in the Bible sound like. Because when you get to the end of all of them, you know, like verse 16, he says, the water saw you, God. The water saw you, it trembled. Even the depths shook, right? Verse 13, God your way is holy. What God is great like God, you are the God who works wonders. I just read that to say, we can say life is hard and God is good in the same breath. And if we feel like we have to ignore one to do the other, there's a problem. So for me and my worship of God, my pain, my difficulty, my trials, I always feel, I don't know what the forefront of how I begin to engage them. And one thing that pastoring did for me at least is, I don't know, it just gave me a clear picture of what's going on in lots of people's lives all the time. And so when we gather on Sunday morning, we see people singing, like there's a lot of people going to do lots of stuff that we don't know about. And so we want the songs that we sing to be able to have space to be honest about that at the same time. And I think even being able to lament together, lament, so not just like, oh, I'll deal with my pain when I'm alone, but when we come together, we just say happy stuff. I want us to be able to say sad stuff together too, and talk about how God can speak to it.
Speaker 8:
[34:19] How has your condition, for those who don't know your condition, I think if you want to explain some of the things that you went through over the years, but how have your condition kind of helped your worship and influenced the way you worship, whether that's rap or writing music.
Speaker 3:
[34:40] Tomorrow morning is knocking.
Speaker 5:
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Speaker 7:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 10:
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Speaker 10:
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Speaker 9:
[35:26] So I've had an illness for the past, what year is this? 2026, 18, 19 years, man. 2007. And when I first got, you know, like it was after my first year of college, I went to Bible college because I found out you didn't have to do math at Bible college. And the only thing I cared about when I was 18 was Jesus and hip hop. And I met some dudes, I was like, wait, you went to a Bible college? Like you can go to college and study the Bible. They're like, yeah, so went to Bible college. Coming back for my second year, I just felt horrible. I wasn't sure what was going on. Felt like I had like a virus or something. I was starting to sleep like 18 hours a day. And I was still exhausted for the other six hours that I was awake. My roommate's calling me a bum. He's like, you're squandering your education trip. God doesn't, it's not glorified in this. And I'm going to the doctor, they're like, I don't know what's wrong with the virus. Take this, you're good. And long story short, it just continues. And I say, doctor after doctor after doctor. They test me for every single thing they can think of. And they said, if it's all of these things, I think you have chronic fatigue syndrome. And I was like, all right, bet. What do I do? It's like, nothing. There's nothing you can do. Try to live a healthy lifestyle. We don't understand it that well. And doctor after doctor after doctor. There's stuff to treat symptoms that you do over time. But so in different seasons, it's affected me more or less in different ways. Some symptoms have come and gone, but it's been the hardest part of every part of my life for the last 18, 19 years. Hardest part of my marriage is my health. Hardest part of my relationship with Jesus is my health. Hardest part of parenting is my health. Hardest part of my work. Yeah. And so it's a constant challenge. Something that feels in some ways good, some ways maybe not good, but it feels like a shadow, a kind of a cloud over every minute of everything I'm trying to do. Never know how I'm going to feel. So I don't know how many good hours I'll have in any given day. And I don't know what time of day those good hours will be. And so yeah, that's just hard. That's why I'm not pastoring now. It was just hard health-wise. So yeah, that has... So when I've... The songs that people talk to me about that I've written, like a sweet victory, the songs that have meant the most to them, they're always the ones where I'm talking about the heartbreak of trials and God's goodness in the midst of it. The number of people who have said, hey, Trip, I have a chronic illness, and just this song helped me to know that there's still hope in Jesus in the midst of it. Or I was going to take my life, man, seeing that there's victory in Jesus changed my life. My mom was dying of cancer. This is the song she listened to every single day in the hospital. Those are the songs that have done that. And so it even felt like as I'm writing these worship songs, I definitely don't want to push that out because we don't want to think of that as, if it's not compatible with worshiping God with other people.
Speaker 8:
[38:29] Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 7:
[38:30] I think what I've found is that, I guess the things that God puts us through, the ways he disciplines us, the ways he trains us and prunes us, it makes our worship that much more authentic. You know what I'm saying? Because it becomes more than just a word, it becomes color by experience. So if I'm saying that God is good, I'm like really saying that from my heart.
Speaker 9:
[39:02] You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 7:
[39:04] And so I do think, and I think that's all up in God's plan, is like in my life, he wants my confession to be authentic. And even in my worship, he wants it to be authentic and sincere and just real. Even for the joy that I experience in that whole dynamic of singing a song that is actually true for me and not just words. And you have seasons where it is just words.
Speaker 9:
[39:26] That's right.
Speaker 7:
[39:27] Where it's like, let's talk about that. You know, the song where he says like, my mind is getting mixed up with gospel. Cause I remember when I first started going to this church in St. Louis when I was a new believer, and you know how like you got that one person, they're like the worship leader, they don't sing. They're just exhorting y'all to get prepared. And she would get on the mic and she was like, and I command my soul. And I would be like, why? I ain't went through nothing yet. And so I didn't understand why she was so adamant about having to talk to herself before she worshiped. Talk about that.
Speaker 9:
[40:02] Well, I think it feels like another honest, the way that the psalmist are processing the world honestly. For him to say, bless the Lord, oh my soul, telling himself to bless the Lord, even in the midst of all the hard stuff, it just feels like the psalmist being honest. And to me, that's very helpful when I'm struggling and I open up God's book and it understands where I'm at.
Speaker 8:
[40:23] Yeah. That's Psalms 103.1. By the way. It says, bless the Lord, oh my soul, and all that is in me, bless his holy name. Did you talk about that one? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 9:
[40:35] And then he says, my soul, bless the Lord, and do not forget all his benefits. And then he starts to run through it. He forgives your iniquities, he heals you your diseases, he redeems you from the pit. It's like, I don't know, I want Christians to know like sometimes this isn't what your soul is going to feel like. And that doesn't mean to withdraw and pull away. That means lean in, remind yourself of his goodness, remind yourself of his forgiveness, spend time with people who see it, sing about his goodness. I don't know if y'all ever like, have not really believed something when you started singing a song and by the end of it you did. That's what I love about some of the songs that have. More depth in the amount of work, like dense, that's what I'm looking for. More dense lyrically, you know, like it is well or something. Some songs that like take you on this journey and remind you of things within it. Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[41:25] Yeah, the commentary from Psalms 103 is dope to me. It says commanding your soul refers to actively instructing your inner being, emotions, mind and will to praise God. That is what Psalms 103 is pointing us to.
Speaker 9:
[41:38] That's good. That's dope.
Speaker 7:
[41:40] That's hard to do.
Speaker 9:
[41:42] You were talking about like our trial is giving us more, I don't know, it being realer to us. There's a song on the album called Fortress with Naomi Rain.
Speaker 7:
[41:56] She can sing. She don't sound like she does.
Speaker 8:
[41:58] No, she can sing, sing. Her voice is so pretty.
Speaker 7:
[42:03] It's magical.
Speaker 9:
[42:03] When we was writing, she was like... Because everything we were writing, it sounded amazing. She was like, yeah, people are telling me don't sing it because it's going to trick us. It sounds better than it is right now. But we wrote this song, Fortress, based on St. Corinthians 12, when I'm weak, I'm strong, which was a passage for me specifically that meant more to me while going through trials where I feel like I cannot depend on the strength of my body at all. And so when Paul's like, I boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses. It's not like an intellectual question I'm asking to be like, how, why is he boasting in weakness? It's a, no, I need to know what's happening in your heart. I need that because this feels like it's ruining everything. I need to know how this is something you boast in. But anyway, that song, Fortress, starts, you know, I'm weakest when I'm strongest in my eyes. I'm hopeless when I rejoice in my highs. Lord, keep me low until I recognize. I'm feeble till my fortress arrives. And I just like, I want to put that kind of honest about weakness, rejoicing in God's truth and in God's people's minds and hearts.
Speaker 8:
[43:10] I had two questions, but I'll do the short one now. I think about your condition, and I think about your giftingness when it comes to rap. And I can imagine how being a hip hop artist can be very hard with that type of condition. You know, throw your hands up, throw your hands up. We're chronic, you know what I'm saying? And so I guess, you know, when I'm thinking about what you're doing now, it seems...
Speaker 9:
[43:35] Why are you laughing, Jackie? That was a...
Speaker 7:
[43:39] If he performed like me, he wouldn't have to worry about it.
Speaker 8:
[43:42] No, because I've been to your concerts and they're live. And I've always saw you, because we cross paths through the years a lot, you know what I mean? And I always thought about your condition and like how hype your crowd's been, how taxing them may be on your body. And now I think about what you're doing now, it's just, to me it's beautiful that you can still do music and don't have to jump around a stage. And so is this a beautiful, is this a more, is this a better season for you? Even physically, mentally, spiritually, still been able to do music and not have to be so taxing on your body?
Speaker 7:
[44:16] Yeah.
Speaker 9:
[44:16] That's interesting. Honestly, I hadn't thought of it that way. There are some things about making these songs that is harder than...
Speaker 7:
[44:24] In what way?
Speaker 9:
[44:25] It's a completely different way to write songs, for one. So I feel like I had to learn how to write songs over again in a new way. Rap, as y'all know, we get lots of words. You can meander your way to a point, too. For the art of it, you can't meander your way.
Speaker 7:
[44:42] There's so much space.
Speaker 9:
[44:43] Yeah, and I had a song, Supernatural, where I say I wish that... And I'm just talking about, we need God's supernatural grace. But I'm like, listening to a bunch of stuff I wish was different in the world. I wish the forbidden fruit was bitter. I wish we all would get banned from Twitter. I wish hip hop didn't root for killers. I wish police didn't shoot to killers. I wish that I could dance like Thriller. I wish everybody knew my God, the healer, the cancer killer. Wish I could switch Dr. Pepper for liquor, protect some livers. I'm just going through all this stuff. Some of it's serious, some of it light. But the point at the end is, we need God's supernatural grace, we can't fix all this by ourselves. I can't put that in the worship song. I can't ask your mom to sing that on Sunday morning. So I had to figure out, okay, how can I say these things in universal ways, but not take the beauty or interesting character out of it. I had to say that to say, there's also, if I know that some vocals need to be done for my album, I just go record those vocals. Y'all know, what's the hardest part of an album when you're finishing up? What's the thing that's like, I don't know, when Ace is like, oh, Jackie, we almost, it's usually features.
Speaker 7:
[45:49] I feel like I'm gonna be wrong. Oh, okay, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 9:
[45:51] You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Nah, features is like, because you're not just working with your schedule, you're working with other people, other people gotta get stuff in, and the reason you want other people on your stuff is because they're good at it and they're doing lots of stuff.
Speaker 7:
[46:04] And they usually lack urgency.
Speaker 9:
[46:06] Yeah, yeah. And this is like all of the songs are features. All of the content I have to have other people a part of. This is not 100, you know, it's a, so there's lots of extra elements that make this harder. So there are times where during the making of it, it feels like it's taking more of my energy.
Speaker 8:
[46:23] But I wonder when it's finished, how relieved it would be. Yeah. You ain't got to go on the road.
Speaker 9:
[46:28] Yeah, I still haven't thought about it like that yet, but that's interesting. You know, I'm about to go on tour with KB and Tarian, and this is the first time on a tour where I'm going to be doing some of these songs live. And yeah, so it'll be interesting.
Speaker 8:
[46:40] That's dope.
Speaker 9:
[46:41] It'll be interesting. But yeah, I mean, I'm naturally laid back too. So I had to make myself be more, you know, like Cray is all the energy in the world.
Speaker 7:
[46:52] Cray and KB, they love to jump.
Speaker 9:
[46:54] Yeah, I'm like 15 with these dudes.
Speaker 8:
[46:57] You are the more calm one. You are the calm one. I wanted to shift gears, but if you wanted to-
Speaker 7:
[47:04] No, because you said you had two questions.
Speaker 8:
[47:05] Well, my next question is kind of shifting gears. Okay, so a couple of years ago, Trip, I was invited to this like, this private influencer meeting or whatever. And I was like, I didn't know why I was there. I was just on the wall. And an interesting conversation kind of broke out between like the older generation from like historical black churches and a lot of the Christian hip hop artists that were in the room. And I didn't even know a lot of this conflict because I didn't grow up in a church. So I was just ignorant to a lot of these things. And one of the things that some of the older black influential pastors said, how they felt like, back in the day, they felt like slighted by CHH artists because they went into white evangelical spaces and kind of just lived in those spaces more than the African-American church. Because back in the day, especially when we was doing Lexi Conference every year, it was predominantly white reform type spaces inviting Christian rappers, even poets. And then some of the rappers pushed back and was like, y'all all called our music demonic. Y'all said y'all can't worship with, and I think both can kind of be true at the same time. And so I think I will want you to speak to both. Speak to the person who says, because it's even Jackie was saying, like it's even like this, this kind of this ideology emerging.
Speaker 7:
[48:30] It's a resurgence of criticism around Christian hip hop.
Speaker 8:
[48:35] That it's unredeemable, that you can't worship through it. And for me, that's, you know, like the first time I heard about Christian heathenism was a Christian hip hop song. The first time I heard Sin Broken Down is when Flame was like, the Bible causes sin. You see, that's our nature. It's like a pig in a pen. They'll pass a steak up just to eat slop. Cause that's what, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 7:
[48:58] Who is that?
Speaker 8:
[48:59] Flame. Flame, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 7:
[49:01] It's all here by theology.
Speaker 8:
[49:02] Oh my goodness. Back in the day, y'all songs was so theological. Like 2020 was such a theological, like, and I'm not even trying to gas you. Like a theological, like piece of art work, right? And so speak to the people who say, Christian rap is not redeemable. We can't worship God through it. Yeah.
Speaker 9:
[49:21] Yeah. I think we, I think we take our cultural preferences and then we just baptize them and we look for passages to make them true. I remember one time I was talking to this, I was at some conference I had spoken at, and it was a dude who had not been around hip hop before, and he was very skeptical of me. And then he heard me teach and he was like, oh, this was good. And he was so confusing to him. And he, and what I realized as we talked, he was like, you know, cause what about it makes you want to dance and blah, blah, blah. And there's, how can that have serious themes in it? And I'm like, you know, there's like slow rap songs too. Like, you know, there's a lot of different, I think the more foreign it feels to people culturally, the more they just read in their biases and what they just hear when they, when they hear it. And I think I would want people to, one, allow space that, for cultures that aren't yours, there's a lot you don't understand. There are things that mean something to you that that's not what they mean to other people. Things that sound aggressive or ungodly to you that are not. And we have to be curious enough to actually learn and care for each other. Even in thinking about worship music, it sounds different everywhere. Everywhere sounds so different. And in other ages in the church, it's like, do we think that like these light airy pads is just what Christians have been doing the whole time? Like, that's not, nah, that's not.
Speaker 7:
[50:45] They turn them pads on, y'all think the Holy Spirit walks in.
Speaker 8:
[50:48] I say, it's the sound.
Speaker 9:
[50:50] And it works. And it gives people that space, but that's not what God's presence sounds like. You know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, one of the things that was helpful for me early on is cross movement. They were really, at the time when I was first getting into Christian pop, they were really doing a great job of helping people understand that God redeems all peoples from all cultures and the parts of a culture that don't look like God, that's the parts you got to get rid of. But everybody's not trying to turn into one kind of culture. That's not helpful.
Speaker 8:
[51:22] Do you know, I put on my IG the other day, God didn't save me from my culture, but God saved me for my culture, to reach my culture. And on Facebook right now, I was reading the comments this morning. It's like 300 comments of people saying that it's sinful, that God wants to boot culture out of the window. It's not about culture. Kind of just dissing culture as if culture is wrong. And somebody in the comments ironically brought up Christian hip hop. They was like, but y'all listen to Christian hip hop. And I'm like, cause I think people can sometimes be so heavenly minded when they know earthly good. And when you look at Christian hip hop, that's all it is. It is God redeeming people that come from a particular culture. And so we can engage in this artwork that started on the streets of the Bronx. It did not start in the church, right? But because all music comes from God, it is redeemable. And so for people who think that hip hop can't be redeemable, it's like you were born in sin and shaped in the nickel. He redeemed you. Why he can't redeem culture in hip hop?
Speaker 9:
[52:26] And you assume that your culture is neutral. You assume that you don't live in a culture that's different than other people's cultures.
Speaker 8:
[52:32] Absolutely.
Speaker 9:
[52:33] There's stuff about your culture that looks ungodly to people. It's like you're not the standard. And I think there's just a lack of curiosity and a cultural arrogance that I think, yeah, keeps us from thinking wisely about it. So I encourage people before they're like, oh, I don't understand that, to just ask questions, say, tell me more, help me understand. Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[52:53] It's all really fascinating, especially since I re-entered into the Christian rap space and my sound is a particular sound.
Speaker 9:
[53:02] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[53:03] And I think some of it, and I say this gently, I do think some of it is ignorant in the sense of when you listen to even CCM, they are pulling from a lot of secular artists and secular sounds, but because you're not familiar with Coldplay, you don't know that that's the reference.
Speaker 9:
[53:22] You know what I'm saying? That's right.
Speaker 7:
[53:23] But because you're familiar with Three 6 or whatever, your ear is attuned to what the influence might be, so it's quicker or easier, I think, to say that's wrong because it reminds me of this, not knowing that we need to apply that to everything.
Speaker 9:
[53:39] Absolutely.
Speaker 7:
[53:40] Also, I wonder if it's much like, you know, when you come out of the world, you do want to naturally reject everything that reminds you of that space. And so I think some of that is legitimate, where it's like, I don't want to be reminded of when I was in the club. I don't want to be reminded of when my daddy listened to KRS One, if that was a thing. I don't want to be reminded of da-da-da-da. And I think that's where we have to really do some work in understanding what convictions are. You understand what I'm saying? If it is sin for you, it is in fact that.
Speaker 8:
[54:15] And that's the reason why I've been patient for the most part with the people on my IG and Facebook or whatever, because I think it is an attempt to be holy, right? And I told this girl the other day and this guy the other day, I think the problem is when we come out of the world, I think we give the world too much credit for the church handling their things. It's like, I think we have to understand that the world doesn't create to pervert. And so all things come from God, right? And so we look at something and be like, that's the world. It's like, no, that's not the world. You're looking at the way the world abuse things. And you're saying that the church shouldn't use it because of the abuse, not because they have it in their hands. Right. And I think that if we understood that, it's like, no, like, no, the world abuses wine. Yes. That's not, the wine doesn't belong to the world. They abuse it. Music doesn't belong to the world. They abuse it, right? And so when God redeems it and restores it, Christians then bring it out to the world and represent it.
Speaker 7:
[55:21] Cause drums are not inherently sinful. High hats are not inherently sinful. Harps are not inherently holy. You understand what I'm saying? And I think when we really distill it down to instrumentation and the way we are gathering these instruments to curate a certain particular sound, I think we need to get real specific. That's all I'm saying. Cause I remember when I started to really pray and when I felt like the Lord was drawing me back into music, I was at reach and I distinctly heard, I'm not saying the Lord spoke to me audibly, but there was this strong burden of, I am giving you, I am sending you into different territory, where there are people that will not listen to your podcast, will not read your books, will not listen to your sermons, but they will listen to your sermons in a song. And so I think when you do, I think we have to trust that God is using Christian rap music to draw people to himself. Cause at the end of the day, like you said earlier in the conversation, people listen to music more than they listen to their audio Bible. People listen to music more than they fellowship. People listen to music more than they're in the text. And that thing is ministering to me.
Speaker 8:
[56:35] This is the Lord. This is the Lord. Cause as soon as you said-
Speaker 7:
[56:38] That was very declarative.
Speaker 8:
[56:39] As soon as you said that, I thought about, this had to be like 2014. No, it had to be before then. I think it was doing Grip season. Me and Jackie was part of this non-for-profit organization that mentored like inner city youth from the projects in Chicago called Grip. And it was this 14-year-old boy who came to faith through one of your songs. Oh, wow. I would never forget that. And we brought him to the Legacy Conference. I think he met you. He was supposed to meet you. But it was that song, how does it go?
Speaker 7:
[57:15] I thought he was doing Church Club.
Speaker 8:
[57:18] I know, it was a song you had, The Good News, We Was Born In Sin, The Good News, We Can Be Born Again, The Good News. And then you just really broke down sin and worldliness and God's righteousness or whatever. And he came to faith through that song. That's incredible. But here's what I'm saying. This is a project. He lived in the Stateway Gardens in Chicago, and he probably wouldn't have came to faith on some CCM and Maverick City.
Speaker 7:
[57:52] We love Maverick City. We love CCM.
Speaker 8:
[57:54] I'm saying God has a diversity of people to reach different demographics. And I think that we just undermine the sovereignty and the all-knowingness of God when we try to put God in our own boxes. You know, that just, I think it's sad.
Speaker 9:
[58:09] And the number of people that I... This is one thing about having done this for too long is... People make you feel old, but the number of people that I talked to who said, hey, I never knew anything about any theology. Your music made me read and study these things. I had a song called Beautiful Life, where I was talking about the sanctity of human life, even in the womb. Someone said, I heard this song and decided not to abort my child. The number of people who said, me and my wife came to a Christian hip-hop concert, we would both gravitate toward it, and that's how we met, and that's how we got married. The number of lives changed, scriptures read, people who've met Jesus through Christian hip-hop, that to me, I want to give people pause in how quickly that they discount things. Because like you're saying, the Lord is at work.
Speaker 8:
[59:00] That's so dope.
Speaker 7:
[59:01] Amen.
Speaker 8:
[59:01] That's so dope.
Speaker 7:
[59:02] I still want to lean back into real quick, because I think that's meaningful. The embarrassment and the insecurity of worshiping in the public gathering. I think that's a thing. And so-
Speaker 8:
[59:15] You saying I should sing?
Speaker 7:
[59:17] You do sing, to yourself.
Speaker 8:
[59:19] What I'm saying, in church, in front of people, you think I should do that with Tripp said?
Speaker 7:
[59:23] You do do it.
Speaker 8:
[59:24] I don't do that.
Speaker 7:
[59:25] You don't sing?
Speaker 8:
[59:26] No, like real low.
Speaker 7:
[59:28] We need to explore this. I guess I thought you sang.
Speaker 8:
[59:33] Have you ever heard me sing in church?
Speaker 7:
[59:36] Yeah, a couple of times.
Speaker 8:
[59:37] Probably because you're sitting right next to me.
Speaker 7:
[59:39] Right. I thought it was a thing. So why don't you sing?
Speaker 8:
[59:41] I'm not going to sing how my cousin be singing.
Speaker 7:
[59:43] Don't do it. Don't do it. I don't want my concealer to get messed up. Why don't you do it?
Speaker 8:
[59:50] That song, Shabbat. Hallelujah, Shabbat.
Speaker 1:
[59:54] Praise the Lord, Shabbat.
Speaker 8:
[59:56] Hallelujah. Da-da. Lift up your hands.
Speaker 7:
[60:00] I had a Jewish roommate one time. I was playing that song. She was so offended. She was like, it's not Shabbat.
Speaker 8:
[60:07] It's Shabbat.
Speaker 7:
[60:08] She said it like real Hebrew. I'm like, I didn't know.
Speaker 3:
[60:12] I just like the song.
Speaker 8:
[60:13] Kelly.
Speaker 7:
[60:14] Yeah.
Speaker 5:
[60:14] I was like, Barak.
Speaker 7:
[60:16] She just was so offended.
Speaker 9:
[60:17] That's hilarious.
Speaker 7:
[60:18] We need to talk about this, though. Like what's happening internally that is preventing people from worshipping in the gathering and how do we exhort and encourage them to do that?
Speaker 9:
[60:30] Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[60:31] For me, I don't even think it's... I don't know how we got back here. I don't even think it's...
Speaker 7:
[60:36] I felt like we need to circle back.
Speaker 8:
[60:38] I don't even think it's like an insecurity. I think when I hear you rap, when I hear you rap, I'm like, man, they're gifted for this. I hear Naomi Rain and CC. Wine had sings. They're gifted for this. I think when people hear me write a poem, it's like I know I've been gifted to write poetry. And when I see people that don't, it's like, no, that's not a poem. You just wrote down your thoughts and said it out loud. It's not a poem. And so for me, it isn't...
Speaker 7:
[61:03] So you think people will judge you?
Speaker 8:
[61:05] I don't think people would judge me. I just don't think it'll bless nobody. It's just like, what am I doing this publicly if it's not going to bless anybody in the public square?
Speaker 9:
[61:14] And I think it will.
Speaker 8:
[61:16] You think it will?
Speaker 9:
[61:17] Yes. I think it will, because it's a thing we're doing all together. So there's one thing...
Speaker 8:
[61:23] So my cousin not blessing me was my heart.
Speaker 9:
[61:25] Well, he may need to turn the volume down a little bit. You know what I mean? Maybe he needs to sit in the back. But no, there is a collective thing that we're doing. There's a unifying thing. It's different than the other ways we encourage each other. Like the sermon, someone talks and we listen. Maybe we talk back a little bit. Or when someone's praying, one person is praying, the rest of us are praying along, saying amen. Or if we're all praying at the same time, we can't hear each other. There's this unique part where we are all singing the exact same words, the exact same truths about God, the same celebrations all together with one voice. It's just really unique. And I think us hearing each other, I just think the value of like her rapping, you doing poetry is like that's performance. Or you being gifted at it, that is what the blessing is. When we're singing all together, us being gifted at it is not what the blessing is. It is the singing to God. Now, of course, we don't want your cousin leading.
Speaker 8:
[62:22] I pray for you. You pray. I think we, I think everybody can join in there. I love you.
Speaker 7:
[62:27] You have no problem singing on this podcast. I'm not seeing why we can't find it.
Speaker 8:
[62:30] I'm not singing. I'm not. That song, you don't have to hit no notes. You kind of stay there. But it's like certain CCs, writing songs.
Speaker 9:
[62:37] Oh, yeah. But I think that's why a lot of worship music is very singable with simple melodies. So that everybody can sing along.
Speaker 8:
[62:44] I'm going to sing more in church. I'm convicted.
Speaker 7:
[62:48] I think the encouragement is one, you can be moderate. You know what I'm saying? So it's not like you have to sing out loud. You can mumble to the Lord.
Speaker 8:
[62:57] Yeah, I be mumbling. I be singing to the Lord.
Speaker 7:
[62:59] I just think also in the public gathering, not only are we being encouraged communally because we're hearing the words being sung to us, but I think there is a special experience in us saying things back to him. You know what I'm saying? And so I just wonder how he could minister to you.
Speaker 8:
[63:16] Mm, this podcast was for me.
Speaker 9:
[63:19] I don't think it's good to be vulnerable like that.
Speaker 7:
[63:21] Yeah, you're very, very right.
Speaker 9:
[63:23] Sometimes I can hear myself not singing that good, and I'm like, and that's okay. That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing right now. Now, my wife sings beautifully. And so I'm like, I am extra blessed when I hear her singing good. So, but, and I've been trying to make my son sing.
Speaker 7:
[63:37] Yeah, I be sitting there trying to, I get distracted, because I'm listening to the band and the bass. And I'm like, and if I hear one flat note, I'm like, and so anything, sometimes I have to divest myself from the creative joy of it to just worship.
Speaker 8:
[63:52] So that's interesting. Yeah, y'all got me thinking.
Speaker 7:
[63:55] So for all the people, can't wait till Sunday. All the people who share that same, those thoughts about, you know, can I sing, should I sing, don't want to sing. I don't think you have to pressure yourself into being something you're not or sounding in a way that you're not gifted for. Just see it as an opportunity to commune with God. And people will see you and be encouraged by you. And so, and it's discipleship even for your children.
Speaker 8:
[64:26] And so what we're not saying is join a worship team. If you're feeling, oh, no, sing it, get your seat.
Speaker 7:
[64:32] If some people, I'm like, yeah, they might can't even know. They just told y'all, yeah, cause you was willing. But that mic is off. I know it is. I don't know if you're anything.
Speaker 8:
[64:40] I don't want nobody to be like, oh, I'm joining the worship team tomorrow.
Speaker 3:
[64:43] Trip said, everybody can sing.
Speaker 9:
[64:45] And that is distracting. Now, sometimes we got what we got, but there have been times I'm like, Lord, help me focus, please.
Speaker 7:
[64:52] Yeah, it's a fight. Well, thank you Mr. Trip Lee for inviting us to worship. We will have your album in the show notes. Y'all listen to that. Y'all sing it out loud as long as you want to in the car.
Speaker 8:
[65:07] Before you go, just tell them the name of the worship.
Speaker 9:
[65:10] Yeah, so Bragg Worship and the name of the album is For Your Glory. And it's, you know, there's Naomi Reign and Doe and Madison Ryan Ward and Lea Smith and Jonathan Traylor. They're the featured artists on this one.
Speaker 8:
[65:24] Yeah. And then there's more to come. Oh, line up. Well, man, thank you for your service for the kingdom, even, you know, serving the Lord with your condition.
Speaker 9:
[65:32] I appreciate it.
Speaker 8:
[65:32] That's admirable, bro. Love you. Peace.
Speaker 7:
[65:35] Auto Immunes Unite.
Speaker 8:
[65:37] Wow. Bye, y'all.
Speaker 7:
[65:41] With The Perrys is produced by The Perrys with support from Amanda Reid and Channing McBride. Video recording and audio production by Matthew Baxter and Xavier Fairley. Edited by the team at Tread Lively. Artwork by Hobb. Thank you for listening. Now go with God.
Speaker 6:
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