transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hey, back porchers, I want to enthusiastically invite you to join us at the Carigma Summit. It's happening just in a few weeks, right here in Middle Tennessee. It's April 30th through May 2nd. It's like a Bible bootcamp. It's for women who want to dive deeper into God's Word with each other in a really authentic community. You can find out more details at carigmasummit.com or on my socials. It will not be the same without you. Now, before we dive in, we want you to know that we delved into some sensitive subject matter today. So be aware of that before you listen to the rest of this episode. This is one that I would encourage you to make sure the littles aren't listening. We are so glad you're hanging out with us today.

Speaker 2:
[00:43] Everything that God asks us to do is at that level of Esther when it comes to obedience, right? Like it's just really important. Our obedience less is the Father's heart. You know? And so there's no small little bits of obedience.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] Because every moment of every day we do have the audience of a king. Every moment of every day we make the choice. And because we can't see him, we have to know the king of all kings is going, good job, honey. Good job. I really appreciate that. I love that every moment really is for such a time as this moment. AccessMore.

Speaker 3:
[01:33] Hey, hey, Back Porchers. My name's Allison Allen. I'm the 5'12 spiritual wing woman to Lisa D. Harper for Back Porch Theology. And we're so glad you're here. And I just want to take a second to say, this last weekend, I met a woman that had been hanging out with us on the porch for three solid years, Lisa.

Speaker 1:
[01:50] Oh, since the get go.

Speaker 3:
[01:51] Yeah, since the get go. But we want to extend a special welcome. If you were just joining us, if this is new, we want to say to you, you have got a chair at this table, so pull up, it's got your name on it. You're welcome here. And we just want to take the journey with you.

Speaker 1:
[02:03] And you don't have to have it all together.

Speaker 3:
[02:04] And you don't have to have it all together.

Speaker 1:
[02:05] You can see what's going on under the table. It's really sketch.

Speaker 3:
[02:08] In fact, it's a prerequisite that you do not have it all together.

Speaker 1:
[02:10] If you have it all together, we'd appreciate if you would just stop listening right now.

Speaker 3:
[02:14] Right now. Right now. Lisa, I'm so excited. I am too. We normally have Dr. Jim Howard with us as our resident prof, but we thought it would kind of be fun to change it up today. And we've got another professor, Dr. Lynn Cohick. We're so excited that you're here. But you are also one of Lisa's professors. I want to read her bio because you've just done so much. And I want our viewers and our friends to understand who is actually...

Speaker 2:
[02:39] You're embarrassing me here.

Speaker 3:
[02:40] It's okay. I see you blushing.

Speaker 1:
[02:41] She's legit.

Speaker 3:
[02:42] I'm going to make you blush more. Okay. Lynn H. Cohick, PhD, University of Pennsylvania is distinguished professor of New Testament and director of the Houston Theological Seminary. Prior to coming to HCU, she served as dean of academic affairs at Northern Seminary and provost at Denver Seminary. She was professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and taught at Nairobi Evangelical Graduate School of Theology. Love that. Her books include The Letter to the Ephesians, Christian Women in the Patristic World with a beautiful sub that I'm not going to read. Hold it up there, Lisa.

Speaker 1:
[03:15] Their influence, authority and legacy in the second through fifth century.

Speaker 3:
[03:20] I love that. Co-written with? She wanted us to say... Amy Brown Hughes. Philippians and the Story of God Commentary, Ephesians and New Covenant Commentary, and Women in the World of the Earliest Christians. I mean, that is one bio, but I want to ask you a question about the bio, okay? When you hear that read, is there one that particularly grabs your heart that you say, you know what, Lord, I kind of can't believe I was a part of that, or you used me in that way? When you hear that read, what do you think?

Speaker 2:
[03:49] Yeah, certainly most formative for me, I think overall is teaching. And then the opportunity to teach in Nairobi to Christians from across Sub-Saharan Africa, I learned so much and it opened my eyes to areas in the Bible that I just hadn't seen. I mean, I'd have no reason to see race in South Central Pennsylvania. That was kind of my world.

Speaker 3:
[04:17] Well, you speak of opening your eyes to the scripture and you're going to do that for us. And we are so excited. I don't even want to give away where we're going, but we are going somewhere really, really good. And one of the particular themes in this book, which will unpack for us or kind of motifs is this idea of being caught sort of between a rock and a hard place. And Lisa, you and I were talking recently. Again, over 2,000 cases.

Speaker 1:
[04:42] We don't want to give it away. We don't want to give it away yet, because if you hear the character's name, real person, historical person, but you'll go, oh, I may have heard that story before. And I'm like, not like this. You have not heard this story. You know, y'all know we're cruising through the entire redemptive narrative of scripture in a year. And this is one of those characters I wish we had a month to spend on. But really Dr. Cohick helped me see there's two main female characters in the story, not just one. And they kind of both are between rock and hard place. And you and I were talking over copious amounts of chips and queso. And you asked me, have you ever been in one? Uniquely as a woman, I was like, oh, I've been in several. But the one that came to mind was many, many years ago, I was teaching at a singles conference. It is the last singles conference I spoke at. I'm not big on pizza and putt-putt, and this kind of just ruins singles conferences for me. But anyway, the guy was introducing me. I'd never met him before. We're in a church, a lot of people there, let's say, I don't know, 1,500 people. And I'm in my early 30s. And he says, this is Lisa Harper. I don't know why we do DJ voices in church. Why do we do DJ voices? Church or prayer? But he kind of did this DJ voice. He said, this is Lisa Harper. I'm already up on the platform. And he said, she's a beautiful, and you're like, well, then that's kind of a little awkward, kind of single given celibate gal. And I thought, why did you just introduce me as celibate to like 1500 people in a co-ed audience? And I was so flustered. I looked at him because I was, I mean, I don't want to give away too much in TMI, but I'm in ministry, I'm not married. So yes, that's true, but that's just awkward to tell a co-ed audience. And so I turned toward him. Boy, remember the old platforms in church where everything was carpeted? I don't know why that was the thing, but everything was carpeted. Well, when I turned, my foot slipped, of course, I was wearing heels, and I went sliding, surfing down the whole front, which is like eight steps, surfed all the way down. How I didn't fall or break my ankle is just, I'm not sure. But I land at the bottom, there's a gasp, like everybody gasp. And you know how you're just trying to recover, you're on the giant LED screens. And he says, and gentlemen, she's flexible. And y'all, I don't even remember exactly, I don't remember what I was teaching on. I just remember how do you go from there to the Bible? And sometimes there's such a, there can be such a narrow gap between up to's. I mean, maybe he was just nervous, but he was awkward. And objectification, I was like, I just don't think you would have done that if I was a guy coming in to speak at your singles conference. You would not have commented on my sex life. And you would have not have made a derisive comment about people might want to date me because I'm flexible. And you just go, I just feel like that, that, you know, sometimes you go, I just, that's just weird. And I felt caught and yet I'm in the family of God. And you see that in the story, all too often the story you're about to tour us through is painted as this really wonderful, happy, kind of a great story for the girl. The girl gets, if I've heard one time, I've heard a million times, she gets a whole year of spa treatments. And I'm like, you're not looking at the whole story because both of the women in this story are between a rock and a hard place. The way they walk it out is much better than me surfing down carpeted stairs. But it's not the love story that's been depicted all too often in Christian culture.

Speaker 3:
[08:24] That's right. Would you take us in to tell us where we're going?

Speaker 2:
[08:29] We're going to Esther. We're going to Esther.

Speaker 3:
[08:31] Yeah, we're going to Esther. But in light of what Lisa's just shared, can you kind of unpack the book, as you will, using not just one woman, as Lisa said, that's who we always hear about. What about two women that are between a rock and a hard place? Help us out there, Dr. Cohick.

Speaker 2:
[08:47] Absolutely. And I think, Lisa, to what you just said, with that kind of introduction, you have no agency anymore. You have no voice. It won't matter what you say, what Bible verse, because you have now been objectified to your audience. And I, you know, it's hard to know if that was the man's plan, if he actually had that in mind or not. But that's effectively what happened. And what we'll see, I think, in Esther, starting with Vashti, is a woman who said, I am actually going to keep my agency. I am going to keep my dignity. And then we see with Esther, because her story unfolds over a couple of years. We just see it, you know, in a couple of verses, but actually a couple of years take place. And we can kind of see how she grows into her own voice in the roles that the Lord gives her. Yeah. So on to Vashti.

Speaker 1:
[09:44] I love the idea of voice. Again, whether you're male, female, young, old, the idea of agency and voice, but all that being bracketed by kindness and Christlikeness, because I think sometimes in our culture, we get empowered, confused with enraged. Yeah, that's good. And we use our voice only when it's like, I've taken and taken and taken, now I'm going to use my agency. It's like, no, agency and anger don't have to go together.

Speaker 2:
[10:11] No, and that's not, yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 1:
[10:13] Yeah, so I love where you're taking us.

Speaker 2:
[10:14] Yeah, so the story of Esther doesn't start with Esther. I mean, the book is named for her, but it actually starts with Vashti. And I think it's because we get a chance to see who the guy is that Esther will eventually be married to, right? Who will be the queen of. And this guy is egotistical. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. He just really, he's surrounded by sycophants, right? And he's over the top, the descriptions of the banquets. Everyone gets to drink as much as they want. And we know how well that goes, right? So the women, though, have their own banquet. And this is where Vashti is hosting, and she's the queen. Now, the text tells us that after they've been, the men have been drinking for a week, the king decides to show off his wife.

Speaker 1:
[11:05] For a week.

Speaker 2:
[11:06] For a week.

Speaker 1:
[11:07] I mean, just that verse. People say the Bible is boring. I'm like, really? Yeah. That is like a massive kegger in the Old Testament.

Speaker 2:
[11:13] Yes, yes. And it shows his wealth, but also it shows his lack of self-restraint.

Speaker 1:
[11:19] That's it.

Speaker 2:
[11:19] And so because it's in the Hebrew Bible, and the Jews are reading the story, we already know he's not a good guy. Like this is not a guy we're going to follow, right? He doesn't show restraint. He's not careful. And this will become really important when we get to talk about Esther and how she decides to quote unquote work with him or convince him or persuade him. But right now here's dear Vashti, and she's having her own party with the royal women. And then the king says, come, I want Vashti to come into this room with all the men. That simply wasn't done. And we know that there's a fellow by the name of Herodotus, a Greek historian, who a couple maybe 25 years or so after Xerxes' reign, writes a history of the Persians. I mean, he's writing it about the Greeks, but he includes the Persians. So we know a little bit about the king and about their habits. And it just was absolutely inappropriate for the king to ask the queen to come into the space. There may have been women with the men, but they wouldn't have been royal women, right?

Speaker 1:
[12:27] Or they would have been women who were hired by that, because it just sounds like drunken debauchery.

Speaker 2:
[12:34] Oh, it is. Yeah. Exactly. So here's her rock and hard place. If the queen obeys the king, which is what any subject should do, she then looks like a bot woman.

Speaker 1:
[12:53] Right.

Speaker 2:
[12:53] But if she refuses the king, well, then she's a disobedient subject. And so there's really no right answer. But what she chooses to do is stay in her banquet and not go to the king. So far, this is just about a king calling one of his subjects, who's the queen, to come. But now, his trusted advisors, who are presumably even more drunk than he is, based on their advice, suddenly now, they make it about a husband and wife, and about every wife throughout the entire kingdom. And they say, well, the queen can't be saying no to the king. It's like a wife saying no to her husband.

Speaker 3:
[13:36] You'll set a bad example.

Speaker 2:
[13:37] Set a bad example. So not only is this bad, but we've got to now make sure everyone in the kingdom knows. And there's so much irony in this. Like you could have just said, send the queen away and be done with it. But instead, they're gonna make an edict that will go through the entire kingdom that expresses the fact that the king has been disobeyed or shamed is too strong of a word. Disrespected, that's the word. By the queen, his wife. Like, why not just hide that? Why do you want to publicize that? So it's like, it just spins out of control in so many ways. But you think about that, and I think what really, what was Vashti to do? In the commentaries, some people praise Vashti that she maintained her honor, right? It was, the request by the king was immoral. She would have to have acted immoral. Okay, so they're, they, you know, that's in the plus column for Vashti. But in the negative side, it's like, but her husband asked her to do something, and she refused. So that's in the negative side. So that means, like, she can't win, right? But if you think about the overall story, later in the story, Mordecai does not bow down to Haman. And he doesn't because he will not show the false kind of respect that Haman thinks he deserves. I mean, Mordecai favors the king. He, when he hears a plot against the king's life, he makes sure that someone in the castle or palace is aware, so the king is saved. So he's, he definitely is pro-monarchy. Right. And he doesn't mind showing respect that way, but with Haman, he refuses because it is not a valid request. So I think if we're going to understand Vashti, looking at Mordecai and how he responded is a fair comparison. But what happens is often people say, oh, as a wife, she should have listened no matter what.

Speaker 3:
[15:42] Right.

Speaker 2:
[15:44] And I just think, yeah, but well, if you're going to say that, then say that about Mordecai. Mordecai should have listened to Haman because that was how it was done in the hierarchy in that era.

Speaker 3:
[15:53] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[15:53] Can we back up for just a minute? Because I'd love for you to explain something, Dr. Cohick, that I've never totally understood. When you talked about, you know, they're drunk. He's like, yeah, I'll get my wife to come in, I'll text her. And she's like, no, you're trashy. I'm staying here with the girls. Obviously, I'm taking just a little bit of liberty.

Speaker 2:
[16:09] That's not in the exact Hebrew. That's not in the original Hebrew, how you...

Speaker 1:
[16:12] And then probably because he has already shown he has no restraint, he's a prideful man, then he gives this edict. And the edict is, if it pleased the king, this is Esther chapter one, verse 19, if it pleased the king, let a royal order go out from him and let it be written among the laws of the Persians and the Medes, so that it may not be repealed that Vashti is never again to come before the king. So the edict is that, and then we're going to have basically an American Idol cattle call, and we're going to see what women in the kingdom can come, who would be beautiful and compliant. So is that effectively what takes place? And Dr. Cohick, how many people are we talking about? In the Persian kingdom at that time, when that royal edict goes out, that basically Vashti's banished, and now we're going to have a cattle call, kind of an open call for all the hot girls who will be compliant, how many people are we talking about that that edict goes out to?

Speaker 2:
[17:15] I mean, hundreds of thousands. This Persian empire is huge, and it has a number of what they would call provinces.

Speaker 1:
[17:21] Because this is the dominant empire in culture at this time.

Speaker 2:
[17:23] There'll be months before anybody hears this. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it will be months before this edict eventually gets to some of these places.

Speaker 1:
[17:31] Because people are illiterate, so would it be basically you have emissaries from the king who go out and kind of announce it and kind of basically on the street corners.

Speaker 2:
[17:40] So if you think of like Ezra and Nehemiah, those folks, right? And Ezra or Nehemiah, they have a connection back to the Persian king. So the Persian king will send an emissary maybe to say something to Nehemiah. Then Nehemiah will distribute it in the language of the people and all. That's how they'll know. So Vashti, you know, in a way that request by the king, it would have ended up this way no matter what. Because if she had presented herself to his, to the men in that group, she'd be no better.

Speaker 1:
[18:15] She would have sold herself, wouldn't she? And he probably still would have done the same thing.

Speaker 2:
[18:18] And so, yeah, when he finally kind of wakes up out of his stupor, he'd think, my queen just exposed herself, so to speak. I mean, I think she kept her, would he? I'm not sure that he wanted her only to wear the crown when he came in. Some later rabbinic stories say just only the crown, whatever. But she knew if she obeyed, she wouldn't be queen again when he finally woke up.

Speaker 3:
[18:42] Because she dishonored herself. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[18:44] And so, but then with the question of this whole, after he does this with Vashti, the text gives us a few sentences before it says, and then the king thought, maybe that wasn't such a great idea, because I kind of would like to have a queen.

Speaker 3:
[19:00] Right.

Speaker 2:
[19:00] And so he doesn't, though, open it up like a beauty contest and anyone can apply.

Speaker 1:
[19:05] Right.

Speaker 2:
[19:05] He sends out, again, these emissaries that then they take, they take the women, right? That's the, how it, let a search be done.

Speaker 1:
[19:19] Right.

Speaker 2:
[19:19] And then, and let them take these, take these women. So, they're brought, when you look at the verbs, it's not like a beauty contest that is open to any applicant. Often how it's taught.

Speaker 1:
[19:37] So this is much more human trafficking than open call for a beauty contest.

Speaker 2:
[19:41] Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. How they're sequestered, how these women are sequestered, I think we also want to mention. You know, they are, now, when they get into this space where they're going to be taken to the king, I don't know how to say this, right, in a G-rated show. But, you know, they're now like his special property. And we might think, oh, that's such an honor. But I want to emphasize, and we'll see this in Esther's life, you become, your world gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And pretty soon, she won't even be able to talk directly to Mordecai. She has to go through some of the guys, the eunuchs, that are there as her caretakers.

Speaker 1:
[20:27] That totally changes the framework of the story, because I've heard this story, what, hundreds of times, probably since I was a kid, I've seen it flannel graphed. And it's almost always depicted that, oh, lucky Esther, because she's kind of shy, and her guardian is Mordecai, her cousin. But it's painted like, man, how lucky she got in that initial group of girls who were considered to be the next king. And it's like, yeah, that's not at all the way this story was. In the same way, Vashti, at least she had some agency as a queen. These women who are taken, think more Liam Neeson than Cinderella. They have no agency. And then they're brought together, and their sole purpose is to please the king, and they have no choice.

Speaker 2:
[21:21] And they leave their parents and their siblings, and will they ever connect with them again for what we would call a one-night stand, perhaps? And then that's it. And then they, so they're gathered together before they go to the king. And then they go to the king, and then afterwards, they're put in another space, right? And so their lives...

Speaker 1:
[21:46] They're basically kept women now.

Speaker 2:
[21:48] They're effectively concubines.

Speaker 1:
[21:49] Oh, they, exactly, exactly. And I heard someone who was teaching this, who had a lot of background in Hebrew, and said that the word virgin there doesn't even necessarily, it did denote their lack of any sexual relationship, but also it denoted their age. These are little girls. These are, most of them probably would have been, what, between 12 and 15-ish.

Speaker 2:
[22:15] Right, right. And at that time... So you've got middle schoolers. That's right. And at that time, once a woman started her period, or a girl started her period, there was, you know, a sense, okay, we should get her married. So, but, and so at one level, there wasn't the teenage years the way that we have today, but your point still holds. You're still young. And in the normal course of things, you're with your aunties, you're with your mom, you're with your older sisters, you're with the community that helps you manage all of this.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] And grow up, learn how to be a young woman.

Speaker 2:
[22:50] Exactly, exactly. And Esther, she's an orphan. Both her parents died. She's exiled from her homeland. So she's in a new space that way. Fortunately, the Lord provided Mordecai, who really cares about her. He is her cousin, but he takes responsibility for her.

Speaker 1:
[23:10] She's more of a daughter to him.

Speaker 2:
[23:11] Yes, she really is cared for by Mordecai. And when she's taken, and this gives even more support to what you've been saying, he's always at the gate every day. He wants to know how she's doing. Now, if this was such a great thing, you know, he'd be back home and just bragging on her to his friends. He's there at the gate every day. How are you doing? Which is really special. And I think that's an important part of Esther's story. He raised her in such a way, I think she felt, given all the stuff that was happening, there was at least something, a rock she could stand on. And I think as the Lord provided that, it allowed for her then as she grows up and grows, I mean, the king favored her, she goes into the king and the king favored her. And then eventually they have a banquet, she's the queen, certain incident, you know, things unfold where she remains close to Mordecai, but also seems to kind of know how the palace runs.

Speaker 3:
[24:17] Yeah, I was going to ask you that.

Speaker 1:
[24:19] Yeah, I did too.

Speaker 3:
[24:20] Yeah, because going in, I think there can be this idea, is she manipulating the king? Is she utilizing his weaknesses that we've already seen reflected earlier in the text? Talk about the way she gets to his heart.

Speaker 1:
[24:33] Well, and how, well, and how, because I also want to bring Haman in, because I always want to have this when we say Haman. But, but why? I mean, I think I know why, but talk about how Mordecai coaches her. Yeah, so keep her head down, keep her identity a secret, because it's like she didn't learn this without coaching. The fact that he was a father figure, and he's kind of almost texting her through the gate, going, okay, honey, here's how you do it now here. And how did he know that? Was it just his wisdom? Had he seen that before? Did he know what might happen to her? Talk about their circumstance, because he, she didn't know how to, how to work.

Speaker 3:
[25:11] Approach the king, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[25:13] But Mordecai coached her. Yeah, talk about that, because I always hate it when she's depicted as manipulative. I'm like, no, she's a, she's a young woman who's actually growing up before our eyes on the pages of scripture beautifully.

Speaker 3:
[25:25] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:27] Yeah, it does give you, the fact that Mordecai says to her, don't tell your ethnicity, keep that secret. That's gotta inject an element of worry in her life. What will happen if they find out? Well, they're a conquered people, and they've been taken as exiles. So they have no community support other than other Jews. And you see Haman's, I'll say anti-Judaism, but Haman, he can't be the only one. We know he's not the only one throughout the provinces. There's anti-Jewish sentiments. But for Esther, I think the fact that she listened closely and stayed connected with him and he also made really good decisions. Like when he heard the threat against the king and he was able to tell her, she then goes to the king and says, this is Mordecai. So you see a, she could have, I mean, it wouldn't have been Esther, but she could have, any person could have taken the credit. But she didn't. She credits Mordecai. There's an honesty that he taught her. Even though he says, keep your identity secret, that is that you're a Jew, she's not being dishonest about it. Nobody asked, right? You know, and so I feel like he is teaching her the values of what's right and wrong, but also wisdom. How do you persuade? How do you... And part of it is just get to know the people. So she actually makes friends of the people who are important, the men, the eunuchs, who are important in her now very small world. And they like her, you know?

Speaker 1:
[27:28] She has relational equity.

Speaker 2:
[27:29] She does.

Speaker 1:
[27:30] She builds relational equity. Can we take just a quick...

Speaker 3:
[27:32] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[27:33] You're going to ask this better than me, because you know, concise is not my gift. But I do want to for just a moment bring up Hayman, because he is, to me, he's the... He's just the exact opposite of Mordecai. And you see that play out in the story relationally with those two men. But I also love the juxtaposition of you've got a good guy and you've got a wicked, arrogant... I mean, he's almost an archetype. He's such a stinker. I want you to read it, because I'm going to mispronounce all those names. Read the top of chapter 3, Allie, just to kind of make sure we shed a little bit of light on that part of the story. Because once again, so often people will come up to me who are new to church, or maybe they've come back to a family of faith after a season where somebody used the Bible as just a rule book and whacked them over the head with it. And they'll go, yeah, but I'm not really into the Bible. I had a woman recently go, I love listening to podcasts and I love y'all, but I'm not really into the Bible. And I thought, oh, you have a completely wrong view of what this is. At its core, it's a love story, but so much of it is a narrative. And it is so much more interesting than Netflix. And these characters are so compelling. So read a little bit about Haman. Because Haman, to me, even highlights the goodness of Mordecai. It's like when you introduce him into the story, then you really see how great Mordecai is.

Speaker 3:
[29:02] Yep. This is Haman's plan to kill the Jews. And it says, After all this took place, King Xerxes honored Haman, son of Hamadatha the Agagite. He promoted him in rank and gave him a higher position than all the other officials. The entire royal staff at the king's gate bowed down and paid homage to Haman because the king had commanded this to be done for him, but Mordecai would not bow down or pay homage. The members of the royal staff at the king's gate asked Mordecai, why are you disobeying the king's command? When they had warned him day after day and he would still not listen to them, they told Haman in order to see if Mordecai's actions would be tolerated since he told them that he was a Jew.

Speaker 1:
[29:41] I mean, I just love that. So you got this, first of all, this is my imagination, so tell me if it holds water. I think he's a total, total kiss up.

Speaker 3:
[29:50] Oh, totally.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] Because while the king go, oh yeah, bow before him, it was obviously important to Haman. So everywhere he walks, people bow down before him. I'm like, oh, man, he's great.

Speaker 2:
[29:59] And he paid for it, right? He offered the king a lot of money to make that. Yes, now the king said, oh, no, no, I won't take the money. But people knew, Mordecai, everybody knew that he also gave the king a lot of money.

Speaker 1:
[30:11] So he's an arrogant patron, who obviously is wildly insecure, since he only feels good about himself if people throw themselves on the ground.

Speaker 2:
[30:19] And the king bought it. Again, the king bought it. So we learn a little bit more about who this king works.

Speaker 1:
[30:25] So they're in the tour of Fraternity Brothers. And Mordecai goes, no, no, no. I love that.

Speaker 3:
[30:34] Don't you see traces of Daniel in this? Traces of Daniel here.

Speaker 2:
[30:39] He disobeyed the king's order. Didn't we hear that before? Oh yeah, Vashti. Right? Because it would be dishonorable for, because Haman wasn't loyal. He wasn't the king. There is a respect that Mordecai had for the office of the king, so to speak. But Haman, no, he would just be bound to an arrogant man. And that's not what we do. We have our dignity and Mordecai kept his dignity. But it was at a cost that I don't think any of them realized. And by the way, Esther doesn't know any of this stuff is going on, because as the years go by, her world gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So Haman thinks, I won't put up with this. And he goes to talk with his advisors who give him terrible advice. And they just encourage him in his rage. And then, of course, like any false friend, which they are, then when he finally falls out of favor, they're like, okay, man, you're done. You're done. Sorry. Yeah. So they see the writing on the wall way faster than he does.

Speaker 1:
[31:42] This could get us into deep weeds really fast. So I'll just go here briefly. But you see this huge, to me, it even plays out in our culture. There's a point that as a child of God, you go, no, no more. And there's such a difference between capitulation and contextualization. You know, Jesus, pay Caesar, render him to Caesar is what is Caesar's. So we are citizens of a government. You do everything you can do. But when this king says something that's oppositional to this king, there's a point that Mordecai goes, I'm not doing that. And there's no, I don't think he's trying to incite anything. He's just not going to go against his conscious as a godly man, as a man of integrity. And I love that because sometimes I think for us, even as post-post-post-modern citizens, I'm not ever into dissent or doing anything crazy. But there's times that I go, where am I giving tacit assent when I just need to go, I'm not going to walk that road.

Speaker 2:
[32:48] He rejected celebrity culture, didn't he?

Speaker 3:
[32:50] Yeah, he sure did. Well, and making the choice for integrity and agency in the call of God and letting the chips fall where they may. And one of the things that's so interesting to me is that, if you fast forward the story a bit, is that Haman hangs on the gallows that he built for Mordecai. There's some irony here and that idea of, God, make room, it says in the scripture, make room for the vengeance of God. So take your hands off when you're between a rock and a hard place and neither answer is a good one. You got to go here.

Speaker 2:
[33:24] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[33:24] And let the chips fall.

Speaker 2:
[33:25] That's right. And Esther is shocked at what's happening. Why is my uncle, Mordecai, or my cousin, why is he in sackcloth and ashes? I don't know. And we do, that part may seem odd to us who can, like text and all that, but actually from, I mentioned Herodotus before, he tells a story that shows us that you can be a queen, and we would think queens can just go anywhere they want, but at this time, no, they were often very sequestered. So the story, as it unfolds with Esther having to have an intermediary, is historically what was going on at this time. She really doesn't know what's happening. And then she finds out, again, through, you know, her, she's got to go between.

Speaker 1:
[34:15] And from all the other, however many hundreds of girls, she's found favor with the king. So she's a young queen. And she finds this out about her father figure, who's gotten sideways with the nutter, who's a narcissist. And she, does she see him? I can't even remember that part of the story. She sees him in sackcloth and ashes or she hears it?

Speaker 2:
[34:35] No, she hears about it. She hears about it. This is a couple of years. And, you know, we should just note, this is not a monogamous relationship at this point, right? Because she indicates, Mordecai, she sends this note to him, I haven't been to the king, I haven't been in his presence for a month, which indicates that maybe they had more regular communication, you know, in years past, but it's been a month and she hasn't seen him. And Mordecai, you might not know the patterns of the palace, why would he? But you have to realize, I just don't walk in. Like you have to be summoned.

Speaker 1:
[35:10] Right.

Speaker 2:
[35:11] And so Mordecai, when he responds, you know, Esther, you may have been put there for such a time as this, you know, such a great line. She takes it to heart, but she doesn't follow his exact instructions. His exact instructions were go to see the king right now.

Speaker 1:
[35:29] Right.

Speaker 2:
[35:30] She says, okay, you don't have all the facts and here's what's going on. I can't just barge right in, but I'm with you on this and we need to fast and pray. And he's a good teacher. He taught her in such a way that she could think independently, that she could pull in all the data, including data he didn't know about. And then, and this is the great part, she also saw he always puts God first. That was his reaction to Haman. Right.

Speaker 1:
[35:57] Now, back up for just a minute, y'all, because I'm thinking of the person who's new to the porch going, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What's the crisis? Why is he in sackcloth and ashes? So talk about that for a second, because the crisis is, not only does Haman feel dissed by Mordecai, but then he just blows up and decides, I'm not just going to have Mordecai hanged, and he builds this public gallows, but there's also going to be genocide for all the Jews.

Speaker 3:
[36:25] So it's not just Mordecai.

Speaker 1:
[36:26] So talk about that for a minute for somebody who may not be familiar with this actual historical story that plays out like something on Netflix.

Speaker 2:
[36:35] Oh, I know. Yeah. Well, you can look in the middle of chapter three there, Haman, who isn't really being truthful to the king and his description of the Jews. But he says, there's an ethnic group, they keep themselves separate, their laws are different than anyone else's, they don't obey the king's laws. Well, that's not true at all. We've seen how Mordecai wants to protect the king. And so it's not in the king's best interest to tolerate them. So let's draw up an order authorizing their destruction.

Speaker 1:
[37:06] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[37:07] And the king says, yeah, okay. And by the way, I will pay, Mordecai, I'm sorry, Haman says, I'll pay 375 tons of silver, which is often, I mean, that's what I have in my bank. But, you know, can you imagine, like that amount of money?

Speaker 1:
[37:26] Because a ton is 2,000 pounds. That's Bill Gates kind of cash. That is a lot of coin.

Speaker 2:
[37:35] And the king, you know, I don't need that. I got enough of my own gold. I don't need your silver. These guys are just like, it's...

Speaker 1:
[37:47] It's like their foolishness that came from the kegger. You see it throughout the entire story, because they're so, like you said, his friends do not give him good wisdom. But there's such an arrogance and such an us for and no more that they're casually talking about genocide. Yes, casually. It would behoove your kingdom. You'd have a few less wrinkles to deal with if you kill this entire people group. And he says, okay, cool. It's almost like they're having a conversation over coffee. It's shocking to me.

Speaker 3:
[38:19] Well, in fact, it says destroy, kill and annihilate all the Jewish people, young and old, women and children, and plunder their possessions on a single day. I mean, it's wipe them out and take everything they have. And I mean, this is just the dramatic person to me. Can you imagine being in a province and the courier comes? And that is red and the terror and the fear. And so it is so easy, you guys are so right, to read something like this and just gloss over this, just two little verses. And you go, what would have been happening? The terror.

Speaker 1:
[38:52] And one day. Yeah, and what is that day?

Speaker 3:
[38:55] Right.

Speaker 1:
[38:56] When are they gonna come and kill my children?

Speaker 3:
[38:58] Right. It's just, it's astonishing. The stakes here are astonishing.

Speaker 2:
[39:03] Yes, and they get to plunder. Yes. So at the very end of the story, let me just note at the very end of the story, tables are turned, but the Jews do not plunder. And I think that is an important, I'm not, there's, you know, violence is a part of our world and it's regrettable, but the narrative tells us that this violence happens. But I think it is significant that the narrative makes a point that the Jews did not plunder. They showed restraint and they were acting in a sense in self-defense, because if they hadn't acted, then their enemies had already been ramping up for this day. So, yeah, it's...

Speaker 1:
[39:53] So, back up. So Esther, so this is in the future. If somebody doesn't talk some kind of reason to the king, and like you said, Dr. Cohick, he's already showed a few times, not so much restraint, but it's almost like he's going, oh, I would like to have a queen. You see these moments of almost reflection in the king, and she's able to find favor and speak to him. And she had to be so persuasive. She's probably still really young at this point, right?

Speaker 2:
[40:24] Yeah, I mean, it's only, I think we start the story in his third year, and then this part of the story picks up maybe in his 12th year. So she's still in her early 20s, right? Yeah, so she approaches him, and he agrees to see her, and what can I do for you? I'll give you even half my kingdom. I mean, again, he is just so over the top. You know, and I think with Esther, she realizes I've got to also, in a sense, be over the top. He's persuaded by a lot of attention. So I'm not going to just have one meal with him, I'm going to have two. And I'm going to bring Haman in to set up Haman to fall. But the king has got to be able to see this, right? It has to be. He's persuaded in certain ways, especially when someone pays all this attention to him. So I don't think in this case she's manipulating. She never misrepresents. She never, I mean, she has no power other than persuasion.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] And she's not feathering her own nest. No, not at all. She's not saying, let's do this and also get me a condo and the caimans and a porch. I mean, it's not on her behalf.

Speaker 2:
[41:42] It sure isn't. No, no, no islands, no islands, no cars.

Speaker 3:
[41:46] Can I ask you a question? It's something, it's a small little detail that has always just, I don't know, it gives me shades of Joseph. It's the night that the king cannot sleep and it revolves around Mordecai. And so this book is brought to him and they go through reading all the history and he finds out that Mordecai, this righteous man who's been forgotten, who Haman once dead, has saved him, has actually saved his life. And, you know, I'm thinking about folks that have been joining us, maybe folks that know Esther very well. And so they've been with us, other folks who are going, man, I've got to grab my scripture and I want to dig into this wild, crazy story. But, you know, there's a little bit here about what it means to be forgotten and rediscovered. And I can't help but think of Joseph. And so, Lynn, this is a little bit odd, but I wonder, would you speak to two things for us? Would you speak to someone that feels like they are, as Lisa said, up between a rock and a hard place, that either way they go, the decision and the natural is not a good thing. Speak to them and then maybe speak to somebody who really has lived a righteous life, as we see Mordecai has, but they've been forgotten in the annals of history. They've been forgotten. How does God meet us in our forgottenness? And what do we do when we find ourselves between a rock and a hard place? That's kind of a double hitter if you can.

Speaker 2:
[43:11] Yeah, well, part, well, let me start with the first one. With, we know Vashti's story. So in one level, you might feel like, wow, she left the king's presence and her life was bad. But what she did in terms of saving the Jewish people was she helped Esther and everyone know who this king really was. I mean, in the story, in the narrative, right? Which her story, Vashti's story, would have been known. That is one thing Esther would have known. And I think sometimes our own experience, we don't realize the ripple effects of our own stories. We've all been helped by people whose names almost no one's going to know, but they made a huge difference in us. And that's how God works. That's the economy of God. And then I would say, for a while, yeah, Mordecai, to your second question, Mordecai was forgotten, but not forever, right? And I was talking with a friend of mine about Jeremiah recently and how Jeremiah, oh, what a tragic, at one level, from a human perspective, what a tragic life. I mean, he said over and over again, shape up you leaders. We are going to be judged. God has said an alien army is coming in, a foreign army, unless we straighten up. They didn't listen. They didn't listen. And then partway through the destruction, those who were left said, we'll do whatever God tells you, Jeremiah. And they still didn't listen to him because he said, just stay, just stay. No, they took him and they took Jeremiah to Egypt. But you know what? We're still reading Jeremiah. We're still reading Jeremiah. He is the prophet that the Lord used. So I think sometimes we need to have a longer view of things because the Lord will remember and it will, his word does not come back void, right? It will accomplish its purpose. But we just have to think about the timing in an eternal sense.

Speaker 3:
[45:33] Yeah, that's good, Lynn. That's really good. Really good. Gosh, I wish we could go on another hour.

Speaker 1:
[45:40] We'll wrap up the story at the end, just for the people who are hearing it for the first time or the first time in a long time. Because again, I keep, I know I keep making this point, but when people tell me the Bible is boring, it deeply grieves me.

Speaker 3:
[45:53] Yes, right.

Speaker 1:
[45:53] Because I think, oh, these stories are so compelling. Massive themes of good and evil. Even all the way back here, you're looking at the potential of genocide. You're looking at anti-Semitism. You're looking at, there's so many themes that actually, if we just moved it into modern culture, you'd go, oh, I can imagine that happen. You see these sweeping themes that still are the tides of humanity today.

Speaker 2:
[46:23] You think about Esther at the very beginning, when we meet her, no one knows she's Jewish. That's right. It's on that that the plot turns. Because after the second banquet, then she says, now is the time when she says, I'm Jewish. This is Haman's plot to kill all the Jewish people, including me.

Speaker 1:
[46:46] Wouldn't you love to see Haman's face when she totally pulls the rug out from under him and he's sitting there with the king at the banquet like a fat cat thinking, my future is awesome. And she exposes him. I'd love to see his face. I wish our Bibles had pictures just of him like, oh, crying.

Speaker 2:
[47:05] The king is so frustrated. He gets up and he leaves the space and Haman then bow, you know, bows down. This is again, there's irony so much through this. You know, Mordecai doesn't bow to Haman, but Haman bows or falls at the feet of Esther who is reclining. That's how people ate back then. They didn't sit around a table, they reclined. So she's reclining and Haman's, you know, grabbing on to her feet or, you know, pleading with her with his arms outstretched and the king walks back in and says, oh, and now you're going to accost my wife? I mean, nobody needs to say anything. They just walk in, you know, the servers of the meal just walk in with a bag, put it over his head so that the face of Haman is seen no more.

Speaker 1:
[47:53] But somebody is listening to this going, I just feel like I've tried to stay the course, done the right thing. I haven't. And it's like, it reminds me of Malachi. All the evil are getting beamers and job promotions, and here we are day after day trying to be righteous, and we're not getting that. And I'm like, God dead, miss a beat.

Speaker 3:
[48:14] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[48:14] Don't think God is not on his throne. It's like, stay the course, do the right thing. Because again, Esther is the heroine of the story, and she should be for such a time as this, but we usually make that a one note. She has her moment, she seizes her moment, she stands up, she's brave. And I'm like, this is really a story of micro obedience over and over and over again, and Mordecai doing the right thing over and over and over again. Her, all those years, because you know, from so many years, I've heard the story presented as the whole thing takes place in 12 months. And when you go, this is many years later, she's been faithful, micro-osmally faithful for years. It's not this one and done for such a time as this. It's, you know what? You're for such a time as this today, might be diapering your babies, not hearing another adult conversation until this afternoon, doing the right thing with a good heart, going, Lord, I know you see this, and I'm gonna keep taking steps towards you.

Speaker 2:
[49:19] You know, I'm thinking about that. I know when my kids were in diapers, I felt isolated. Well, that's Esther for years in this, right? But the Lord's working, the Lord's preparing, the Lord, as you are faithfully day in and day out doing, not all of us are gonna be, go into the president or a king or something like that. But everything that God asks us to do is at that level of Esther when it comes to obedience, right? Like, it's just really important. Our obedience blesses the Father's heart, you know? And so there's no small little bits of obedience.

Speaker 1:
[50:02] You know, and then, every moment of every day, we do have the audience of a king.

Speaker 2:
[50:07] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[50:07] Every moment of every day, we make the choice. And because we can't see him, we have to know the king of all kings is going, yeah, good job, honey.

Speaker 3:
[50:16] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[50:17] Yeah. Good job. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 1:
[50:19] I love that every moment.

Speaker 3:
[50:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:21] Really is it for such a time as this.

Speaker 3:
[50:23] Oh, I love that. Dr. Cohick, we like to do something here on the porch, and that's pray for the folks that have been joining us, new and old friends. And so to hear Lisa talk about the long walk of obedience, to hear you talk about taking the long view, to hear you talk about someone that's been forgotten and hasn't yet seen God turn the tables, because Esther is a book about God turning the tables. Would you just pray for that friend? And then we hope that we can get you back later in the year for some more walkthroughs of some of these beautiful books. But would you pray for our friends?

Speaker 2:
[51:02] Oh, Lord Jesus, we are so thankful for your word, and for those faithful followers of you that have gone thousands of years even before us. Lord, you are the same yesterday, today, and forever. And so just as you protected and uplifted and cared for Esther and Mordecai, so too, we trust you will care for us. Whether we're in a space of loneliness, or a space of worry, a space of challenge, Lord Jesus, we ask that you meet us right where we are, and take hold, and comfort, and guide, and lift up. We trust you, we love you, increase our faith that we may serve you more faithfully. But most of all, reassure us again and again of your great love, which you shower on us, that your mercy's new every morning, and your compassion never fails. So we thank you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen.

Speaker 3:
[52:26] Amen. Thank you so much, Dr. Cohick. This has been so much fun and so beautiful. And we love y'all. I mean, we don't just say that. We love you, we pray for you, we think about you. We imagine your world and your life and what you walk through. And I just pray that everything she prayed, you'll see come to be in your week, and the week's coming. And we hope that you'll come back next week and join us right here on Back Porch Theology. See you soon, y'all. AccessMore.