transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] There's absolutely no way, don't even try, to tell the story of Christian music without Michael W Smith. If there is one name that we can all look back on and say, this person wrote the book on great Christian music, it's Michael W. And I'm very thrilled to have him as my guest today on the 1 Degree of Andy podcast. I'm excited for you to be here for this episode. Before we get to that, make sure to subscribe so that you never miss an episode of 1 Degree. Write something nice about the show, leave us a 5-star review, and get ready. This is a good one, Michael W. Smith, right here on the podcast.

Speaker 2:
[00:38] Good night.

Speaker 1:
[00:42] I'm Andy Chrisman, and I'm the host of the 1 Degree of Andy podcast. In my nearly 40 years on the road touring in Christian music with the group 4Him, I've met a lot of amazing people who have some remarkable stories to tell. From CCM artists to legendary producers and industry executives to comedians, actors and authors, I've got a Rolodex full of names that you'll recognize. Men and women who have made us sing, laugh and cry through the years. Just like you and me, they've had their faith tested along the way. So join me each and every week for stories of hope, significance and a walk down memory lane. This is the 1 Degree of Andy podcast. I got to tell you about the first time I met you, which I think was either 1988 or 89. I was in Truth, and we were doing our Christmas show somewhere in Florida at a ballroom. I feel like you were on tour with Amy because it was you and Gary.

Speaker 2:
[01:47] Probably was.

Speaker 1:
[01:49] Maybe you were doing rehearsals in the big auditorium or big arena next door. Marty from 4Him, it was back before we were 4Him, we were on the Truth bus, and there was a knock on the door, and I went down to open the door and it was you and Gary. Of course, I'm like 21 years old. You guys are my heroes. I'm like, wow. I'm freaking out right now. You said, we'd love to see Roger, if he's on, Roger Breland. So you came on the bus, and I said, well, I'm Andy, and you shook my hand, you said, hey, I'm Michael. Just like you did when you walked in with all the people here today. And I just got to tell you, that has stuck with me. That's a core memory for me in my development as an artist, to not think that people know who I am, to be cordial, to be kind. And I just have to say, you helped start me out on the right foot, that I remember your kindness back in 1988. And I've never forgotten it. And I do that to this day. If someone knows me and comes up to me and says my name and shapes my hand, I will repeat, well, I'm Andy. Nice to meet you. And I credit that to you. So I just, it's so cool to be able to have this conversation with you. Maybe talk about your career a little bit. Where you are in life now. But welcome to the 1 Degree of Andy podcast.

Speaker 2:
[03:12] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[03:13] Michael W Smith.

Speaker 2:
[03:13] Glad to be here with you.

Speaker 1:
[03:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[03:15] And you know, the whole kindness thing, I learned that from my mom and dad. They were the kindest people that I ever met. They were my heroes, both in heaven now and then I find myself doing the things. My mannerisms are like my dad. I mean, I say hi to everybody. Like, hey, old buddy, if you don't know their name. You know, people look at me like I'm crazy, you know, but just they just exuded kindness with everyone. So, I think I probably learned it from them. And I think as you get older, I mean, I'm sure I was naive and a little bit immature back then. But as you get older and you get wiser, you realize it's not about you. And we are supposed to treat people well, you know. And scripture says, consider others more highly than yourselves. That's a big one, you know. But I just always try to do that because, I mean, it's tough when you're a recording artist and everybody's sort of, not everybody, but you're kind of idolized a little bit. So, you have to sort of like break that down, but hey, you know, I'm just like you, so.

Speaker 1:
[04:22] Well, it plays against that whole fame thing, plays against everything that the scriptures teach us about, you know, how to be godly men and women, how to follow Christ. It's a difficult road, which, you know, from the surface, you've handled really well. And I think that one of the reasons you have been able to do what you've done for so long, is that people eventually figure out who you are, you know, through the way you've treated people and have stories. We know people that aren't who they claim to be. They may be nice on the outside, but not that way one on one with people.

Speaker 2:
[04:58] Right.

Speaker 1:
[04:59] I think it's a testimony to your nature and those lessons you learned from your parents that you are still doing this today and still revered by all of us in the music industry, not just the people who love your music, but you drop the name Michael W Smith in any circle, everybody's going to smile and go, yeah, that's a good man right there. So I'm just grateful. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. I don't know where we're going to go here, but.

Speaker 2:
[05:26] I'm ready.

Speaker 1:
[05:28] I found your music back in the mid-80s, and I have to say my favorite album of yours is your second record. The song, I don't know, it's just something about maybe where I was in life at the time, and a budding musician that it just spoke to me. I went back and got your first album, and I know so many of the guys that you went on tour with, and you played with back in the day. I just had Reid Arvin on for a conversation, and he talked about meeting you and hearing you play behind Amy when y'all were on tour together and just how even just your vamping behind Amy talking was like, writing music back there and everything is recordable. Can we just kind of go back to the beginning of your career and talk about what brought you to Nashville, who you knew, what got you into this whole journey?

Speaker 2:
[06:23] Well, long story short, I wanted to be a professional baseball player growing up. I was a jock and a musician. Grew up in the church. My mom was church secretary. I worked at oil refinery, but I knew at 15 years of age. It's the only other time I walked down the aisle. Ten years old, I got saved. And then five years later, I walked down and said, I think I'm supposed to do something in music. I asked my pastor, Stan Franklin, if he would lay hands on me and pray for me.

Speaker 1:
[06:53] Well.

Speaker 2:
[06:54] And long story short, I just ended up moved to Nashville. I just thought I probably belonged in LA or New York. I didn't want to move that far.

Speaker 1:
[07:04] And what were your connections here?

Speaker 2:
[07:07] Really none except there was a friend of mine named Benny Key, who was in Truth a long time ago.

Speaker 1:
[07:16] Roger tells a story that you wanted to be in Truth.

Speaker 2:
[07:20] Oh, I did. Because Truth came to my church every year.

Speaker 1:
[07:23] Yeah. You said you were too young.

Speaker 2:
[07:24] I was too young.

Speaker 1:
[07:25] Yeah. I know he regrets it now.

Speaker 2:
[07:28] So it was Benny that I was writing all these songs, I needed a resume and I had somebody help me write a resume. And then, I don't know if it was Shane Keister, it was a contact Shane because he was from Huntington, West Virginia, and real close to where I grew up. But I sent a resume to Randy Cox, who ran Paragon Publishing Company. And so I drove down and played in my songs, and stay at the Music Hall of Fame Hotel.

Speaker 1:
[07:57] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:59] Drove my mom and dad's car down and Randy said, I don't know crazy about your lyrics, but I love your music. I love your hooks.

Speaker 1:
[08:06] How old were you at the time?

Speaker 2:
[08:07] I was 20, 20, probably 20. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[08:11] Were you playing baseball?

Speaker 2:
[08:13] No, I kind of stopped playing baseball. I mean, I made the All Stars all growing up. Then at 15, I didn't make the All Stars. Yeah. Cause I was doing this.

Speaker 1:
[08:22] There's a lot of artists that were baseball players.

Speaker 2:
[08:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:25] That ended up moving into music.

Speaker 2:
[08:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:29] You gotta be great if you're gonna play. I really thought, I mean, I wanted to play for the Reds. My instincts were good. Then I learned that from my dad because my dad was my coach. And so I just had a lot of natural ability, but you know, wasn't big enough, you know, and all that stuff. And but I remember just going, when you kind of just know inside going, I think music is supposed to be a part of the fabric of my life. I didn't miss baseball then, you know. And so I moved, I eventually moved here, I moved here in 1978 and worked at Coca-Cola, waited tables, ate a lot of bologna sandwiches.

Speaker 1:
[09:07] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:09] And I was in a really not a good place, and I've written books about it, all the gory details about my being a prodigal, you know, from 75 to 79. Almost lost my life from a drug overdose. But my mom and dad just kept praying for me. And I'm convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'm sitting here with you because of the prayers of my mom and dad. And so, I had this radical encounter with the Lord in 1979. I hit rock bottom, basically, you know, and I convulsed and cried and just for three and a half hours. And no beyond a shadow of a doubt that Abba was on the floor with me with his arm around me. And I got off the floor and I hadn't really been the same since. So, and then I met my wife, Debbie, you know, been married for 44 and a half years and five kids and 20 grandkids. And I think we're, I think we're done, but I said that at 18. So, but then I just, and then they'll make this really short. But then I just, you know, I met Mike Blanton, Dan Harrell, and through Randy Cox, and then all of a sudden here's Amy. And I find myself in a room writing songs with Amy for the Age to Age record.

Speaker 1:
[10:20] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[10:21] And so that's how the whole, and then I wrote a song for Sandy, How Majestic is Your Name, you know, that was the actually, Only Love Will Last Forever was my actually first cut and truth cut that song. But my second song that I got cut was How Majestic.

Speaker 1:
[10:33] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[10:33] And then I started writing songs for myself. And so nobody would give me a record deal. I mean, you know, I've tried to go to LA to try to do the pop thing. And it was always going to be faith-based. I mean, it just feels the most important thing in my life. You know, I wanted to be like Elton John. I wanted to write these really hooky, great pop songs, but let them reflect, you know, my faith and my heart for the Lord and whatever. That didn't happen. I came back and so Mike and Dan went and borrowed money from a bank and started a record company called Reunion Records. And Kathy Giacoli and myself were the first two artists on that label.

Speaker 1:
[11:07] I love Kathy. She's one of a kind.

Speaker 2:
[11:10] So I wrote songs for her. So that's kind of how the whole thing kicked off. And then, you know, not a bad way to start off. Now you're going to be Amy's musical director and she's going to let you open up the show. So I did that for two and a half years. And so her audience seemed to gravitate towards my music. And then I'm headlining my own tour in 85 and then I teamed back up and did a big picture tour. And then the biggest tour, I think, if I'm not mistaken, the biggest tour I've ever done was the Lead Beyond Tour. And that's when I teamed back up with Amy. So it was Amy and I and Gary. And we played, I think we filled every arena in the country. It was like, it was just a, and we were having so much fun. I mean, we're just like, gosh, can you believe we get to do this?

Speaker 1:
[11:53] And the musicians you guys had on stage with you.

Speaker 2:
[11:55] Jerry McPherson, Chris Rodriguez.

Speaker 1:
[11:57] Chris Rodriguez, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:59] Gosh, I just, I think it was Mike Bernadale was playing bass. Yeah, it was pretty incredible.

Speaker 1:
[12:07] So what was your first breakout song? Like the first song on radio where you realized, I mean, you're writing songs for other people and you're touring and you're in the middle of all of it, but there's that one song on the radio that hits.

Speaker 2:
[12:23] Yeah, I think the first song was Graze the Lord, I think. It was kind of the big choir number on the project. That song was so different from the rest of the record. You need to save your own, could he be the Messiah and all that. But I think that's the first thing that I heard on the radio. And that's so exciting.

Speaker 1:
[12:43] And you're hearing it sung in churches too.

Speaker 2:
[12:44] It's sung in churches, in the hymnal and it's crazy. And probably one of the biggest songs of my career is Friends. I don't think that was really ever a single.

Speaker 1:
[12:55] Was it not?

Speaker 2:
[12:56] I mean, it might have been, but I don't ever remember them saying, we're going to release Friends as a single.

Speaker 1:
[13:03] How did that catch on then?

Speaker 2:
[13:05] What was the story behind it? We ended the Amy Show every night with Friends on H&H tour, definitely straight ahead tour. And we sang on Leave Beyond. So, it just kind of became this, I mean, to me it's like, and I wrote it with my wife. I mean, Debbie and I wrote all the songs on the first album. And I love the lyric, but there's nothing like, well, look at the song, I don't go, wow, man, that's like the greatest song I've ever written. Because I think it's like, it's just okay, but there's something about it that just, that you look at people in the audience and you go, oh my gosh, this song is the part of the fabric of their lives of hundreds of thousands of people. I sung it at funerals and I sang it at graduations. So, little did I know that I was going to have to sing that song for the rest of my life. I don't get tired of it, because you just see what happens in the audience, when you sing it. It's beautiful. I'm just, gosh, so grateful.

Speaker 1:
[14:13] So, this is so trivial, but just as an artist, knowing that your name is very important, like with 4Him, we hated it. But we got to the signing of our record deal with Vincent and we had to put something down. So we just went with 4Him. Were you always Michael W Smith or were you Mike Smith? Were you like, how did that?

Speaker 2:
[14:35] Yeah, I was Mike.

Speaker 1:
[14:39] Mike from West Virginia.

Speaker 2:
[14:40] I was Mike. It's still one of my friends back in West Virginia. They called me, hey Mike, we'd love to come and see you in concerts. But the Michael W thing happened when I was signing with BMW. Back then it was BMI and I was with them for just a year, and I was been up with Ascap ever since. But I went over to sign up because I'm thinking, gosh, I'm confident. I think I'm going to get something on radio at some point. There were like 33 Mike Smiths. I'm going, well, if I do get something on radio, I sure hope they pay the right Mike Smith. So I thought, well, my real name is Michael. My middle name is Whitaker, old family name. I thought, why don't I just go Michael W Smith? And that's how that happened.

Speaker 1:
[15:30] There it is, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:30] It was all trying to start my songwriting career with BMI.

Speaker 1:
[15:38] Well, we all know now with streaming services, that it's super important to have something that's very unique, and that no one else has.

Speaker 2:
[15:46] Well, I always thought it was kind of a boring name. It's not like Elton John, Billy Joel. It's like it didn't have that little ring.

Speaker 1:
[15:56] Which is not their names.

Speaker 2:
[15:58] Exactly. Or Bono. But I thought, well, gosh, it is what it is. My name is Michael and my last name is Smith. It's a pretty common name with a W in the middle. So it works.

Speaker 1:
[16:10] Yeah. It worked out well. I want to talk about the transition from your second project to your third project because it's a pretty huge shift sonically.

Speaker 2:
[16:18] Big leap.

Speaker 1:
[16:19] Yeah. And I've had Wayne Kirkpatrick on. And I know the, he told me the story of, I guess it was, I remember him saying that he was asked to just play guitar 2 maybe or just rhythm guitar. And he's like, I don't even know how to do that. And you guys invited him on tour. He said yes anyway, which is such a, is such a common theme with all the artists that I talked to. And he's like, yeah, I don't, I don't know how to do that, but I'll say yes. Like you just always say yes.

Speaker 2:
[16:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:48] And he told the story of you guys writing Rocket Town together.

Speaker 2:
[16:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[16:53] So can we walk through that just for a minute? How, how that whole shift, because it was a major shift sonically from your second record to this big shift. Yeah. The big picture.

Speaker 2:
[17:02] Yeah. You know, I wrote all the music on that record. He's just, that's my strong suit as music. And I always got to feel like I got to find somebody to help me with the lyrics. And Mike Blanton told me about Wayne. And I think maybe I heard a few songs and Mike said, I think you should take him on the road because I think he might be a good writing partner for you. And I think that's why Mike really wanted me to take him out. And so we hit it off. It's great. I think the first song we wrote was Rocket Town. It kind of reminds me like maybe it's a modern day. If Jesus was, here we are in, what, that would have been 1985, going to his hometown or whatever. I don't know. I think it's chatted about that a little bit, but man, he started pinning those verses. It's like, gosh, this is so good. I mean, the lyric is so good. And so I remember going, bro, that's awesome. I said, I've got eight other songs in my back pocket. And it was Wired for Sound and Lamu and Pursuit of the Dream.

Speaker 1:
[18:21] Yeah, I love that. Is that Chris Harris?

Speaker 2:
[18:24] That's Chris, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[18:25] He's doing the baseball card.

Speaker 2:
[18:27] Yeah, that's Chris.

Speaker 1:
[18:28] Which he did later on with Jeff Moore on that one, I believe.

Speaker 2:
[18:31] Yeah. So we ended up writing all the songs. I think almost every song in the big picture, we did. And then we just kept writing, writing. Did a ton of stuff on Change the World, Go, Usher Men, Place This World. It was Wayne and Amy writing the lyric. So, yeah, he's, and I'm, and I'm miswriting with him because I am. There's just not a lot of poets. Just my opinion. I'm sure they're out there. Maybe I just need to find out who they are so I can give them a call.

Speaker 1:
[19:05] Does it feel like it's as, like, there hasn't been a need for them lately because of the type of music that's been so prevalent lately. Again, I'm misspeaking, but we were talking before we got rolling. I got to do a little work with Wes King this week, and he's working on a new project and invited me in to do some things. Man, just listening to his lyrics, I'm like, I've missed this. He's in there with Mark Hill producing, and I'm sitting in the studio listening to what they're doing going, it's like, this warmth comes over me like, I've missed this type of creativity and writing and depth of lyric, and you're not sure where the song is going to go, and then you're like, but it had to go there.

Speaker 2:
[19:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[19:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:49] Wes is a poet.

Speaker 1:
[19:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[19:51] Yeah. So I love writing, and I've written two or three of my favorite songs. This Is Your Time was, I wrote with Wes. There She Stands, the thing inspired by 9-11. That was Wes. But I would always go to him with a melody. And it always take forever, but I'm patient for writing a song now, I'm patient.

Speaker 1:
[20:12] The best ones do.

Speaker 2:
[20:12] But gosh, he's so good, and he's so intelligent. I feel very small when I'm with him, when it comes to intellectual stuff. But every time I'm with him, I sort of walk away going, gosh, that was amazing. I can think like that. It inspires me.

Speaker 1:
[20:29] Do you feel like it's been part of your secret sauce, though, is having guys like Wayne and Wes and these people that you've put around you to elevate what you started with a song? I think we all growl that way, the producers and the arrangers and programmers and all that kind of stuff. You have to choose wisely because you know...

Speaker 2:
[20:51] It takes a tribe.

Speaker 1:
[20:52] That's right. Because once it's out there, it's going to last forever. But you always felt like you had a way. Again, I bring up Chris Rodriguez, who I know is a big part of your tours and some of those great sounds you created, guitar-wise and on those records. That was very iconic that you kept those guys around for a long time, didn't you? Just kind of as a core.

Speaker 2:
[21:15] Yeah. And then everybody's, from time to time, somebody asks, they go off, oh, you can go work with Madonna or whoever. It's like Chris has worked for tons of people. And I've never been really upset about any of that stuff. Just do what God wants you to do. If you need to go take a break and go work with somebody else, I'm totally fine with that. It is nice to kind of keep a core group of people together, and I've got a kind of core group that's been together for five, six, seven, eight years. Stu G's been with me for, gosh, 14 or 15 years now.

Speaker 1:
[21:51] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[21:52] So, and then it's just trying to, I mean, for me, because this is my 37th album, believe it or not. I think it's 37. But I mean, yeah, best of, you got Christmas albums, you got instrumental stuff. But I like working with young people. I like, I kind of think it keeps you young.

Speaker 1:
[22:11] I agree.

Speaker 2:
[22:12] And they kind of got their ear to the ground a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[22:16] I was going to say, they're listening to music, you're not listening to.

Speaker 2:
[22:18] Probably so.

Speaker 1:
[22:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:19] And then my kids now, Ryan, Ryan's my filmmaker. He's my oldest, 42, he sent me all this obscure kind of crazy stuff, you know, Lone Bellow and Muffin and Sons and things like that.

Speaker 1:
[22:33] So my daughter's the same way that the playlists that she sends me.

Speaker 2:
[22:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:36] I was like, I would have never heard that, but I love it.

Speaker 2:
[22:38] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:39] So I'm just trying to expand my horizon here just a little bit to just, and I write all the cinematic music. My musical hero is John Williams.

Speaker 1:
[22:48] Oh, well.

Speaker 2:
[22:49] Of anybody.

Speaker 1:
[22:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:50] And I'm a Beatles fan and I'm Andre Crouch, and I cut my teeth on the Jesus movement in the 70s.

Speaker 1:
[22:58] I was going to ask you, who were the artists you were really leaning into and taking inspiration from back in the 90s?

Speaker 2:
[23:03] Well, in Christian music, it was Andre. Andre, gosh, Lava Carty Hall, Randy Stonehill, Larry Norman, The Archers.

Speaker 1:
[23:13] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:14] I mean, I had all, Honey Tree, Second Chapter of Acts, I had a love song.

Speaker 1:
[23:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:20] You know, my first record, my first really, other than stuff that was very conservative. I'm trying to think what the records were, but really the first Jesus record that I'll call it, a Jesus record, was, I'll talk about it in the Jesus documentary, is I was in my hometown, a little small town, it's two blocks long of the city. We have a consignment shop. We don't have, it's pretty small. And I found out they had a record bin of all these clothes, but they have a record bin. I think I'm going to see if I can find me a Beatles record. And of all things, this is like 1970, maybe 72, 73, maybe, maybe 71, I'm trying to think when that record came out. But I'm thumbing through the records, and all of a sudden I see this big red Maranatha thing, you know, like a Maranatha thing that says something about Jesus. And it said on the front cover, it says, The Everlasting Living Jesus Music Concert. I think, I don't know if it's a concert. And then I turned the record over, and everybody had long hair, and they're all singing about Jesus. I'm going, that's what I want to do. I remember as a 13-year-old, I'm going, that's what I want to do. I remember just going, and I bought that record, and then I got the second one, and so I bought all the Maranatha records, you know. So that really kicked off my love and appreciation for Christian music and what was coming out. Keith Green, guys, that guy could go on and on. But I was also into Elvis, and I was into The Beatles, and I had all the Beatles records, and I had all the early Elton records. Man, the songs, just incredible. They're still incredible. So it was kind of a cross, and that's kind of what, when I came to Nashville, I remember just saying to my management, Mike and Dingle, I want to do pop music, and I want to sing about Jesus. Why can't I do that? And make it infectious pop and whatever. And it can be this, but it can be a lot of this. I'm just-

Speaker 1:
[25:31] I'm an 80s guy. So, you know, I'm growing up on Duran Duran and Howard Jones, and you know, a lot of these really great program stuff with live guitars. But that, when I go back and listen to your early stuff, I hear a lot of those influences as well. A lot of that British programmed stuff that was, that again was unpredictable.

Speaker 2:
[25:55] Right.

Speaker 1:
[25:56] That, you know, you had to be listening to some of that as well.

Speaker 2:
[25:58] Well, in the 80s, I were. Phil Collins and Genesis and Tears for Fears record. Songs from the Big Chairs.

Speaker 1:
[26:05] That's my favorite album of all time. My favorite band.

Speaker 2:
[26:08] It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1:
[26:09] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[26:09] You know, so infectious.

Speaker 1:
[26:11] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[26:11] So hooky. And they're still playing.

Speaker 1:
[26:13] They are. Their new stuff is great too. Yeah, I love.

Speaker 2:
[26:16] So I listen a lot. I was big. And then I was in, most people, Kastner and Wife had just completely gone blank. Kershaw, Nick Kershaw.

Speaker 1:
[26:28] Yeah, Nick Kershaw.

Speaker 2:
[26:29] Huge, huge fan. He only had one hit in America. And it was called Wouldn't it Be Good? From Pretty and Pink Motion Picture.

Speaker 1:
[26:38] Right.

Speaker 2:
[26:40] But I was so crazy about Nick, his melodies. And I learned a lot with my voice. I've learned to do some things with my voice that I learned from Nick. I'll do a little vibrato at the very end of a phrase where it's going straight, and I'll do a little vibrato. I've been doing it ever since, since the 80s. But I called Nick through Clive Calder, who was at Geffen Records. And because that's when we were starting to have all the partnerships with the major labels to release our records in the secular market. And I told Clive, I said, I want to work with Dick Herschel. He said, I can make that happen. And I did. And he went over there and wrote a song from Living the Life with Him. And then he came over here and we wrote something together. And he sang on it too. So it was a bucket list for me. And then my only other bucket list is John Williams. And I don't think it will ever happen. I've always wanted it to be awesome if he could arrange one of my pieces. I know. And I write all this cinematic stuff all the time. You know, and trying to figure out what to do with it. You know, but whatever. So that's it. I'm rambling a little bit. No, I love it.

Speaker 1:
[27:47] This is the kind of stuff I love. And I feel like my audience loves the details that no one else is really going to talk about. But let's talk about, you brought up the Jesus music movie. And to be honest, that's the whole reason this podcast was born.

Speaker 2:
[28:00] Really?

Speaker 1:
[28:00] Was because you had two hours to try and tell the story of Christian music.

Speaker 2:
[28:07] Which is very hard.

Speaker 1:
[28:08] Which is very hard. And I'm like, oh, this would have been a great miniseries, you know, seven, eight, two-hour episodes, right?

Speaker 2:
[28:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:16] So I was like, I would love to tell some of the other stories that weren't told in the movie. Like, let's talk to the hundreds of different artists and musicians and producers and radio promoters and DJs and everybody associated with the Christian music industries from the 70s, 80s, 90s and early 2000s to get even more of a picture of what Christian music was during that era, which I like to call it the golden era of Christian music because it was...

Speaker 2:
[28:48] It might have been.

Speaker 1:
[28:49] I think it was. I don't know that we'll ever get back there. I mean, there's a lot of great art out there right now, but it was the Wild West. You could do anything.

Speaker 2:
[28:58] I feel like we were discovering continents that had never been conquered. I'm not saying we conquered. I'm just saying we just... That's why when Amy, I love, in her interview, she said we were just having so much fun. I think you can have fun and walk God and all that. The fun part is just, can you believe we get to do this? We're writing things, maybe not new, but for our marketplace, I mean, I think we were blazing the trail a little bit. But we weren't trying to compete with anybody. This is kind of who we are.

Speaker 1:
[29:36] Radio was so accommodating. They would play so many things. We talk about it all the time here is that you could hear DC Talk, and then Michael D. Smith, and then 4Him, and then Sandy Patty, and then Carmen, and then Garmo and Key, and Big Tent Revival, and it was everything on one radio station, and it was a beautiful thing because you never know what you're going to hear next. Everybody had a license for at least enough runway to go make a record.

Speaker 2:
[30:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:08] We'll pay for it, make a record, let's see what we get, and we trust you as an artist.

Speaker 2:
[30:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:16] I'm not going to say I miss those days, because that makes me sound like an old crotchety man, but part of that is like-

Speaker 2:
[30:23] I think that's valid. I mean, I do too. It's a different world, and the streaming, and singles, and AI, and I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I don't like about what's going on. I mean, I don't want to say I can't do anything about it. I can, I just need to just be me, and I need to just keep creating. And I feel like I'm writing some of the best songs I've ever written in my life.

Speaker 1:
[30:58] I love your new stuff.

Speaker 2:
[30:59] I'm just going to keep going, you know? So until the word says, it's your time's up, you know? Well, I mean, why would I retire?

Speaker 1:
[31:07] I know, right?

Speaker 2:
[31:07] Yeah, right.

Speaker 1:
[31:09] I agree.

Speaker 2:
[31:09] There's still people who come, and there's still people who need to hear the gospel.

Speaker 1:
[31:14] We should have more to say.

Speaker 2:
[31:16] Have more to say.

Speaker 1:
[31:17] And God is endless, so his creativity is endless, and his ideas are endless. So let's keep finding them and do what we can do. Well, let's talk about your new music, and there's a couple of other things I would love to get to with the time that we have. But I do, it's not blowing smoke, man. I love the new stuff. I feel like we're back in the 80s with the wall of sound, and just so many layers, and it's interesting. Like I was listening to some new music the other day with some friends of some songs that a friend of mine wrote. And the one thing that I could put my finger on that I really, I could say positive about the song was, I wanted to keep listening. Like I didn't feel like I had heard the whole song in the first two minutes. And I was like, I want to know where this goes. Like I'm in, I'm leaning in. That's the way I feel about your new music is that I'm starting to lean in going, where's he taking me? And I like it. And I think that's been missing for a while. So why go back there? Like what is, because it is, it's different. Because I do want to talk about worship here in just a minute, because that's a huge part of your story. But why now? What spurred you on to make the record you're making now?

Speaker 2:
[32:30] Well, I get bored from time to time. I've never been one to play it safe. Maybe I have from time to time in the past. But it's, I remember Collie, Cobb and I worked on a couple of things together. I remember we were talking about, had this big, kind of like this conversation we're having. He said, bro, he said, you need to make a record for you. I think he said that in the purest terms of, if it moves you and you can get excited, and maybe do the two step and jump around the room a little bit, then you probably need to record it. So, I've been pit so many things that are, everyone's going to get pit songs and they're just okay. They're just very safe and very predictable. We've been there and I don't think we need a whole other batch of those kind of songs. I'm not being critical, Blink. I've written my share of not so good songs. Songs I hope I'll never have to sing for the rest of my life. And I say that from stage and going, I'm not going to tell you what those songs are, because they might be your favorite.

Speaker 1:
[33:45] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:46] So, but I'm just trying to just reinvent my management, I hate when I say it, but I think there's something healthy about just reinventing yourself.

Speaker 1:
[33:54] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:55] But how do you reinvent and stay true to who you are? I'm a musical guy. You know, like two weeks ago, I was listening to Thriller by Michael Jackson. I had an old Genesis record on the other day. You know, just stuff that's infectious and it inspires you.

Speaker 1:
[34:17] Right.

Speaker 2:
[34:18] And so these things just start falling out of the sky. And when I'm in our arms around the sun, I mean, that was just a crazy, there's a little throwback, you know, a little 80s throwback, especially with the synths.

Speaker 1:
[34:32] That's in my head right now.

Speaker 2:
[34:33] Yeah. Yeah. And then the whole flood thing was just insane. The bridge to flood was a little bit of my classical, I would not call it true classical, but there's, I love Bach, and I love Handel's Passade, and I love Mozart, you know, but there's a little bit of some of those changes with a synth that has a little classicalness. It's kind of like Kansas, because I'm a big Kansas fan. Leftover Turing Mask.

Speaker 1:
[34:59] Yeah. I'm a big Muse fan.

Speaker 2:
[35:01] Oh, I love Muse.

Speaker 1:
[35:01] And so there's a little bit of that too, that I'm like, oh, come on, give me a little more of that.

Speaker 2:
[35:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[35:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[35:06] So, and you know what? Those songs probably won't find themselves on radio, and that's okay.

Speaker 1:
[35:11] I hope they do. Something's got to break the dam just a little bit, I think. And there's a lot of really great stuff out there right now that's just bubbling under the surface. And I think, hopefully, like I said, there's nothing wrong with where we are right now with music, but where you and I come from, there's just a different level of intrigue. Like, again, I didn't know how different your second and third records are going to be. That's the kind of stuff that I long for just to go.

Speaker 2:
[35:41] You want to be surprised.

Speaker 1:
[35:43] Let's talk worship for a second, because...

Speaker 2:
[35:46] Let me say one thing real quick. I still like albums. I still call them albums. We're in a single driven thing here in 2026. I still put on a record and listen to it from start to finish. I don't know if I'll ever shake that, but I just need to say that because...

Speaker 1:
[36:09] It's a thought. It's a thought. Somebody had a thought from beginning to end and said, these songs go this direction.

Speaker 2:
[36:15] And the record holds together.

Speaker 1:
[36:16] That's right.

Speaker 2:
[36:17] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[36:18] Worship. So you mentioned something earlier about streaming and how everything... Streaming changed everything. The iPad, iPod changed everything. Napster, all that stuff. And that all started to hit around 1998, 99, 2000. It's no secret the Christian labels really weren't prepared for what that was going to do to them. They were a little slow getting into that world. And at the same time, worship was starting to hit. I just had Jeff Dio on. And that first Sonic Flood live record just went bonkers. And it changed everything. And of course, Delirious is on the scene. And Matt Redmond, and here comes Tomlin. And there's a shift. And so I've had guys like John Mays and Eddie DeGarmo on the podcast. And that's part of their story. Was they get called in to go, what do we do with this? Our label is like, we don't know what to do with this music, but it's going to be big. Let's get our hands around it and see how we can market it. And now, after 9-11 and after streaming becomes the new thing, worship is like the thing. Now, it's coming. We all know it's coming. So, you know, Phillips Craig and Dean, Newsboys, Rebecca St. James, everybody's starting to shift towards worship. But it was your worship record that to me, I can rewind the tape and go, there it is. That's the one that pushed us all off the cliff in a good way to go, somebody of Michael's caliber is doing worship music, and it sounds amazing, and it's got some drama to it, but it's so heartfelt. I know I just set you up for, you know, I don't know what you want to say about it, but can we just talk about where that came from in the decision to make your first live worship record?

Speaker 2:
[38:16] Yeah. Long story short.

Speaker 1:
[38:18] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[38:20] I've been a worship leader at Belmont Church for 19 years, and still doing Place in This World, and still doing Cross the Goal, but I've been a worship leader for a long time, and felt called to it. Just never felt like I was supposed to maybe do a record. Maybe one day I would do it, but it just never crossed my mind. I would have a little worship moments like Go West Young Men. A lot of these young people do not realize that Agnus Dei, they all think Agnus Dei is a brand new song. It was on the Go West Young Men record, which came out in 1990.

Speaker 1:
[38:58] And we're still singing it today.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] Still singing it.

Speaker 1:
[39:00] Crazy.

Speaker 2:
[39:00] All around the world. It's crazy. Let's have this research. Whatever. Yeah. There was a time, it was 2001. I thought it was, I'm mistaken on who actually approached me, but it was GMA. Remember GMA week, and everybody's coming in from around the country. And somebody from the GMA said, you know what, I think we've lost our way. It's like, who's number one, and who's selling the most records, and who's got the number ones? A lot of me, me, me, me, me, me talk. And what do you call it? Schmoozing and all, whatever you call it. Whatever we all did back then. And sometimes you hate that you did it.

Speaker 1:
[39:46] Still gives me a little bit of anxiety.

Speaker 2:
[39:52] And they told me, says, what if we started off GMA with a worship service? And we could set the tone for the week. And would you lead the deal? I said, I think I said, let me pray about that. And I didn't, I didn't have to pray long because I kind of felt like it resonated in my heart. I felt like that's what we needed to do. If you would give me some creative control, I'm not going to run the show. It's going to be, we're going to do this together. And my whole idea was, I want every artist to come and be in the choir. Drop your ego. We're going to worship together. And we did it at the Rodman. And it was-

Speaker 1:
[40:35] Was that the year that we were all sitting on stage together? I remember that.

Speaker 2:
[40:39] I think you were there.

Speaker 1:
[40:40] Yeah, I was there.

Speaker 2:
[40:41] And it was so incredible to me.

Speaker 1:
[40:44] It was Twyla. And Twyla did the Lamb of God.

Speaker 2:
[40:47] She might have done-

Speaker 1:
[40:48] And I think Rich was there doing Awesome God.

Speaker 2:
[40:52] It could have been. I'm trying to think when Rich, that might have been before then. All I know is I just thought Jesus was coming back. It was so incredible. And I was already working on this pop thing. And three weeks after that event, I woke up in the middle of the night. And I don't say this very often, almost audible. But I just heard the Lord say, for such a time as this. And I went, I'm not doing it. I was arguing with God. I'm not doing it. Because the worst thing was kind of starting to do the same as, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon. What are people going to think about me? Oh, Smitty's jumping on the bandwagon. Because I think the Hill song record had come out in the late 90s. Three weeks later, same about three o'clock in the morning, just for such a time as this, I'm not going to do it. And then three weeks later, like almost like I was literally up in my bed at 3 a.m. I was like, okay. It'll probably be the least successful record of my career, but Lord, I'm doing it, I think you want me to do this. I just was obedient. I put all this team together and we all went to Lakeland, to Carpenter's Home Church, took a bunch of artists, and we all just wept just after that night. It was so, we all kept thinking, gosh, whatever happened out there, I hope it translates to a CD. But I mean, we're all back there, just we're all underneath just crying, just crying. We're so grateful because something shifted in the room.

Speaker 1:
[42:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[42:34] I think when you listen to the record, there's moments during the record, especially like Let It Rain, and you still just like move you.

Speaker 1:
[42:41] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[42:43] That record came out on 9-11.

Speaker 1:
[42:47] That's right. I do remember that.

Speaker 2:
[42:49] Yeah. It's the biggest record of my career. And literally, everywhere I go, all around the world, everybody knows every song from that record. I only wrote one song.

Speaker 1:
[43:01] That's what I was going to say. You took songs that already existed.

Speaker 2:
[43:04] Because I didn't think I had the, I didn't think I had the, I just thought, I don't think I can write a bunch of songs. And it really didn't, it really wasn't all about me writing the songs. What are the songs in 2001, this year? What are the songs that are like really special? Open the eyes of my heart. Above all, breathe, just love breathe. The Tomlin song, forever.

Speaker 1:
[43:30] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:31] And we did Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus, Let It Rain, was a thing that I heard Pocket Full of Rocks do in DC, out on the lawn. And then, Ognus Day was on there. And so, and we just, that's what we cut. We did, and so it's crazy. And so, and then I did Worship Again. And I think I did some pop stuff. Now I did A New Hallowly. I mean, I've been in and out of it, but yes, I think there was something very strategic and very timely about that record. Did it start the worship movement? I don't know. And it really doesn't matter, you know. But I do think it was a pivotal record. And I think it was a healing record for our nation on some level with what just happened. You know, we've been attacked.

Speaker 1:
[44:17] Well, at that point, we're all looking at this, probably the most unified our country has been since World War II.

Speaker 2:
[44:25] I agree.

Speaker 1:
[44:25] Is that those weeks following 9-11, everybody's, you know, we're closer than we've ever been.

Speaker 2:
[44:32] Right.

Speaker 1:
[44:32] And we're not talking politics. You know, we're not debating everything around us. We're just like, we're a nation together. And the other, I feel like nations around the world were feeling it as well.

Speaker 2:
[44:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:45] And then for, you just see it's hindsight so clear, right? It's so 2020 because you can look back now and just go, look what God was doing. And he was so, his timing was so perfect. He knew what was going to happen. And he started stirring the waters of worship, stirring the waters of the music industry. And thank God, you woke up and, and I finally said yes. Yeah. You said yes.

Speaker 2:
[45:12] After three, three times.

Speaker 1:
[45:14] Well, again, I think the, I think the worship, the modern worship movement is built on a handful of records. And that's one of them. Like you say, you didn't start it, but you, you understood your heart and your spirit understood what was happening and where it was going. So I just personally as a worship pastor myself, I want to thank you for setting an example of someone taking their incredible skill set. Cause you could have done anything. You could have been like, no, I'm, I'm making my own stuff. I write on my own stuff. I'm not doing other people's music. I don't go that direction. But you did something out of a willing heart because it was what needed to be done. And I think that set a real example for all of us as artists. Like, well, if Michael's going to do it, then who are we to say no? Like we should be doing this as well.

Speaker 2:
[46:00] I loved it. I remember everything about that night.

Speaker 1:
[46:05] Who are the other artists that were there?

Speaker 2:
[46:06] Cindy Morgan was there. I think Phyllis Craigendine, Amy, Chris Rice. I know I'm missing a bunch of people. I just remember at the end, after we kind of woke up from weeping on the floor, I just remember going, I'm made to do this. It's like, it wasn't hard. It was just like, gosh, this is who I am. You know, like doing it at Bellwads. I almost did exactly what I did at my home church, except there were 10,000 people there, however many, and everybody jumped in and became a part of it. So yeah, it's a great memory, that's for sure.

Speaker 1:
[46:49] Then you started a church at some point, a long time ago, right? These things are just kind of ping-ponging all the time.

Speaker 2:
[46:58] What are we doing? Like we don't have anything else going on in our lives. Oh, I could write a book about that. Yeah, we started a church called New River, and I pastored it for two years from summer of 2006, I think, till 2008. One of the hardest things I've ever done. But I really, I realized how much I love the church. And even with all this stuff, I'm from the mindset of going, guys, let's love God and love each other. It's really that simple, and we got to get along. And then you know this as well as I do. You got people who have their opinion.

Speaker 1:
[47:44] Well, you can just say, then there's people. That's all you got to say.

Speaker 2:
[47:47] Yeah, and it will just drive me crazy. And just going, why? Why? Is life so short? And you know, then you become empathetic. You have empathy for, well, he was abused by his uncle. He had all the past and all the stuff that people deal with, and they have to deal with it. And so a lot of that stuff comes out, you know, and tried to shift the church from its original mission. Oh, it got to go on, on, on. But whatever, I'm glad I did it, and that church is still flourishing.

Speaker 1:
[48:23] Really great.

Speaker 2:
[48:24] Gunny Keith Robertson is pastoring. I just passed it, actually, on Lewisburg Pike, coming out here. So I think it was, I mean, to me, it's like, that church would never be there if we didn't, if we weren't Debbie and I obedient with two other couples who started the church.

Speaker 1:
[48:39] That's what I was going to ask, who did you start the church with?

Speaker 2:
[48:41] Yeah, it was six couples. And the crazy thing was, we had one, I mean, I won't get into all the details, but basically, less than a year later, six months later, the other two couples were out, you know. Really sort of not, they just decided to get out. And all of a sudden, it's like trying to guide and direct this thing. It's like, oh man, and we started in our barn, out on our farm. And we were in a theater, and we were here. But you know, then eventually I felt released, going, I need to release it. And then my son-in-law Jack, you know, passionate for a while. And then, and then Keith came in. And now Jack is back, you know, with my daughter, Whitney, and their five beautiful kids. And they're passing a church celebration of life. So we're kind of trying to help them in this new fellowship. So that's where we're at now.

Speaker 1:
[49:34] I think I mentioned earlier, I had Jeff Dio on, and he's a senior pastor now at Church in Texas. Wow. And, you know, he said, we both kind of agreed that we believe that being a senior pastor at a church is maybe the hardest job you can take on.

Speaker 2:
[49:52] I agree.

Speaker 1:
[49:53] I do not envy the role of a pastor. I'm fine right where I am in my seat, leading worship for 20 minutes and then, and then, you know, not having to do all the stuff and keep the lights on and, you know, keep everybody where they're supposed to be. That's gotta be one of the toughest jobs.

Speaker 2:
[50:11] I think it's the hardest job.

Speaker 1:
[50:12] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[50:14] I have great admiration for, when I say that, I have great admiration for everybody out there listening to this podcast, Who's Pastoring? I am for you and I know you're for them as well.

Speaker 1:
[50:24] Well, so you mentioned earlier, one of the things left on your bucket list is to work with John Williams. Is there anything else you haven't done? Because you've, I mean, what a life. And you've done, you've had so many great opportunities. Is there anything left on that bucket list? You're kind of like, if I ever get the chance, I'm going to do that.

Speaker 2:
[50:47] I mean, as a kid, after seeing Funny Girl and Funny Lady, I always wanted to do it with Barbra Streisand. That probably won't happen. The John Williams thing, I have actually great connections. I know a lot of people who know John. I mean, if I push for it, I could maybe make it happen.

Speaker 1:
[51:05] Sometimes, they're going to do his ask.

Speaker 2:
[51:07] I got to do his ask and he's saying no. That's right. The acting thing is something.

Speaker 1:
[51:11] You did that a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[51:12] I did that and I really enjoyed that. But I'm not going to move to Hollywood and I'm not called to be a full-time actor. But I think maybe there's another script, maybe we can do something. I think the biggest thing on the bucket list is I think I want to do another instrumental record. But I started writing a symphony like 12 years ago, and it's probably not a true symphony. David Hamilton has tried to help me with some of the terminology and what that would look and feel like. But I write a lot of really passionate music that don't have any words. And maybe I'm just supposed to do that, you know? And I've written a lot of those lately too. And like Schiller's List is probably, I know that was Ennio Morricone, it's probably one of my favorite soundtracks of all time. And oh, that's not right, sorry. Schiller's List, John Williams with that piece of music is unbelievable. But Ennio Morricone is the Gabriel Jobot with Robert De Niro, Bobba Don Blake on the movie, one of my favorite movies of all time.

Speaker 1:
[52:26] Oh, you're talking about...

Speaker 2:
[52:27] The Missionary and he's doing pented climbing.

Speaker 1:
[52:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Silence. Yes, I can see the poster of it right now.

Speaker 2:
[52:40] But the music to that movie is unbelievable. Just unbelievable. So, and what's great about John, Ennio Morricone too, but John, melodies, it's the melodies. And you can't get those melodies.

Speaker 1:
[52:58] We just watched the newest Jurassic Park movie, and they used John's theme. They used the original themes, and you're just like, it's still so warm inside right now.

Speaker 2:
[53:08] I can play them all. I can play them all. Every theme song, I can play them all. So, and it's so crazy that I've had people, I've had a lot of people, and who knows if it's true, I think it probably is true, that a lot of people have claimed that they have been healed by some of my music, and it wasn't the ones with words, it was the Freedom record.

Speaker 1:
[53:33] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[53:36] And then Bill Gaither, oh my gosh, that's hilarious. He loves my Gloria record, the second FitzRoyal record that I did. He loves it. He just talks about every type of scene. Oh my gosh, on and on.

Speaker 1:
[53:47] Oh, Bill.

Speaker 2:
[53:48] And so, they're doing this hymn, they're doing this hymn, this kind of modern hymns record, and he really, really wanted to know if he could take one of my songs from the Gloria record and put a lyric to it. I said, yeah, let's do it. It's called The Patriot. It's the second song on the Gloria record. So, Gloria wrote this lyric. It's really quite good.

Speaker 1:
[54:09] Talk about a bucket list. You can check that one off to go.

Speaker 2:
[54:13] And I love writing songs for her, but I think this is gonna be a pretty special number. So, yeah, so that's probably my bucket list, yeah. And then selfishly, I don't know if it's a bucket list. I want to live a long life. And mainly, not for me and success, I just want to watch my grandkids have kids and be a mentor and help them guide through this crazy world that we're living in. And that's really what I want to just be 98 years old or whatever. And like Don Finto, my mentor, Don, he's mentored me for 44 years. He's 95.

Speaker 1:
[55:00] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[55:01] He's just sharp as a tack. I mean, he's just, he's going to, I bet he's going to live to at least 100 if not longer. But he's still pouring his life into so many people. He still goes to Israel three times a year. He's just, I just want to be that guy, you know? I want to write music when I'm 95. But I want to be there for my family. That's really, that's probably my selfish prayer. And obviously, God, you know, I'll go whenever you want to call me home, but I'd love to live a long life.

Speaker 1:
[55:31] Well, I can't wait for the rest of your record. Yeah. It's, are you going to tour it? Are you going to take it on a tour? Are you going to do any?

Speaker 2:
[55:39] Yeah, the tour starts April. You know, it's probably, you know, the record's not going to come out till September. New single is called Hymn for Communion. I've always wanted to write a song about Communion. I'm really excited about that piece of music. And then, it's just trying to finish the record, and I keep writing songs, and that's what happens with every project. And the crazy thing, every January, there's no creativity. And every year I say, well, I guess, I guess I got to find another job, you know. And my wife goes, you know, you say that every year. And then all of a sudden, February, it's like you turn the faucet on, and you can't hit record fast enough. So that's the, that's where I'm at right now. So it's exciting. I mean, gosh, it could be, it could be the opposite. It could be like, you're dried up, and there's nothing there. The fact that there's songs still coming out is, it's all, it's all a gift, Andy. It's all a gift. I'm very, very grateful, and I'm grateful to be having this conversation with Andy.

Speaker 1:
[56:42] Well, how good was that? Michael W Smith, there is literally nobody like him. One of the nicest guys you're ever going to meet, and his new music, please check it out. It's really good. I'm not lying. It's some of my favorite stuff out there right now. So thanks so much for joining me today for another great episode of 1 Degree of Andy. I'll be back next week with another fantastic guest. Until then, make sure to subscribe, write something nice about the show, leave us a five-star review. I'll see you next week right here on the 1 Degree of Andy podcast.

Speaker 2:
[57:12] Access More.