transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:09] Hello, and welcome to a special episode of The Scriptures Are Real. This is where they ask us to do some extra thoughts every now and then. We did one on covenant before. I love talking about the covenant, and that ties in very closely with what they want us to talk about this time, which are sacrifices and the temple. And I love these topics. It's so fantastic. So thank you for being with us today, and make sure you catch this special episode. I hope you'll also do the regular episode. Both of them are fundamental. You won't get so many things in the rest of our episodes or the scriptures if you don't do both of these. We're going to talk about specific sacrifices when we get to Leviticus with Dr. Avram Shannon, who is fantastic, and you're going to love that. But for now, I really want to focus on the temple, but that will bring us to some ideas of sacrifice. So I'm going to talk about the temple in a couple of different ways. And then we're going to get to hearing from Rabbi Jarrod Grover and Rabbi Joe Charnes. And then I'm going to come through and take us on a journey through the temple. So that's what we're going to do today. It's going to be fantastic, but make sure you get another episode also. And then on the Patreon, I'm going to go through Egyptian temples. It's just so much fun. And I'm just immersed in all of this right now, revising a temple book and working at temples and working at temple open houses and everything else. I love it. It's exciting. So good, clean, fun. Thanks for being with us, my fantastic audience. Thanks for being part of our podcast family. Before we get into the the rabbis are both going to give you some kind of different ways to think about the temple or the tabernacle. But I want to start out with some key essential elements. First of all, I'm going to suggest that the temple, ancient and modern temples, all ancient temples and our modern temples are what we might call an archetypal journey. They are about the journey that we are on to be with God again. If I were to summarize the gospel in a nutshell, I would say we have left God's presence and we are trying to return to be with Him in a higher and holier presence so that we can have a closer relationship with Him and have more joy and that Christ makes that possible. And that's exactly what the temple is about. It's about losing God's presence and what we need to do to regain that presence in a higher, holier state and how Christ makes that possible. With that in mind, just to kind of highlight how much that is what this is about, I just kind of want to go through some of the names of the Tabernacle, for example. The Tabernacle is called Tabernacle. Well, that comes from a Hebrew word that means to dwell temporarily. Inherent in the name is the idea that this is where God comes when He's going to dwell on earth. It's also called the Tent of the Presence, meaning the presence of God. This is where, remember the Tabernacle is portable. This is the Tent, right? So you would call it the House of the Presence, if it were not a Tent, if it were not portable. This is where His presence will be when He comes to earth, or the Tent of Meeting, that emphasizes that this is where we go to meet God, or the Tent of the Congregation. This is where people, God's people are, so that they can meet with God. Also called the Sanctuary, which means a holy place. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Or the Tent of Testimony, that's often thought of as where the tablets are. But I want to talk about just the idea of entering into the Tabernacle. And that's probably about as far as we're going to get here. Then I'm going to give the rabbis some chances to kind of share with us more ways of thinking about the Tabernacle. Then we're going to go through the journey, all right? But let's talk about even being able to begin the journey. Who can go through the gates of the Tabernacle? It has a big gate, all right? And wow, in my book where I spent a lot of time talking about gateways and so on, so much to go into there. I don't have to do here, but who can go in into the courtyard? Only Israelites. Well, why only Israelites? Because they are a covenant people, they've made a covenant. Well, why do you have to make a covenant to go in there? Well, let's talk about this. Remember, if the point of the journey is to get to be where God is, and God is of a different nature than we are. We're going to call it holy, but let's investigate the word holy. Holy means to be different. That's really what it means. Kodesh or Kedosh in Hebrew, that's Jesser in Egyptian. They literally mean to be set apart, or set aside, or different. In this case, we mean different from the world. The world is what is outside of that tabernacle. You have to be different than the world to go inside the tabernacle. You have to be, I would say, we could say this, you have to be more godly, less worldly. That's what holy, sanctified, they all come really from the same root. The idea is to be made more godly. Because if you're going to be with God, you will eventually have to be godly, or Christ-like in nature. And so the temple represents degrees of holiness, stages in the journey of becoming less worldly, more godly as we get there. And you're gonna see this kind of idea of getting rid of the world and bringing godliness into you as a motif throughout the temple. And it really starts with the Covenant. What is it about the Covenant that changes you? Well, let's just think, for example, how we enter into the Covenant today. We enter into it at Baptism. At Baptism, you go into the waters. And part of the symbolism of that is to wash the sins away, to wash the world away from you. Another way we symbol we have is that you lay down the old person. That old person dies. The worldliness, the natural man in you, or at least part of it, is dying. You come up a new person, right? And in terms of, it's washed away. Then what happens? You receive the Holy Ghost. You receive godliness into you. It changes you so you are godly. So you've gotten rid of the world. You've been made more holy or more godly. And it's because of that. So there's something about making the Covenant that allows you to be a different kind of person, that allows you to leave the world behind, go through the gate into the Holy Courtyard. You can be there because you now match its nature. It's of a different nature. And I think this happens with our temples. Once they're dedicated, they're of a different nature. You can't go in there if you haven't already become someone of a higher nature, that is less worldly than all the people around them, more godly, more like God. And then, of course, we go through more and more stages to become godly. And we're going to explore that after we hear from our rabbi friends that will help us explore different ways of thinking about the temple. And so, I'm just going to stop my part now. And we're going to hear, first of all, from rabbi Jarrod Grover, and then from rabbi Joe Charnes. And then I'll come back on and we'll talk about this some more. Well, hello and welcome to another special segment in our podcast. I'm so glad to have back with us, Rabbi Jarrod Grover. Thank you for being with us, Rabbi.

Speaker 2:
[07:09] Thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1:
[07:11] It is truly my pleasure. For those in our audience who may have missed it, we have new people joining all the time. The Rabbi was with us on what I think was a really fascinating segment when we talked about the blessings that Jacob gave to his children, including Ephraim and Manasseh, who he adopted as his children. That was the last episode where we covered Genesis. The Rabbi was with us then with fascinating insights that turned out to be one of our more popular segments. So thank you for that, Rabbi.

Speaker 2:
[07:47] My pleasure. If it was able to reach people and deepen appreciation for the Joseph story, then I am more than grateful.

Speaker 1:
[07:55] Well, I believe it did. And so just by way of very quick introduction, you're a Rabbi in Toronto, Canada, and across the street or down the street from an LDS church where you have done a tremendous amount and I would call interfaith relations, helping Jews understand Latter-day Saints better and helping Latter-day Saints understand our Israelite cousins better. So thank you for that work.

Speaker 2:
[08:22] I'm trying.

Speaker 1:
[08:23] Yeah. Well, so are we. So, well, today I am so excited about this topic because another, we were talking before the episode began about shared heritages and we have this shared scriptural heritage in the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament, Tanakh, whatever we would like to call it. And but we also have a shared heritage in the temple. And most of Christianity has abandoned the idea of temples. And it is something that is also very difficult in Jewish religious thought in terms of having a current temple right now. It can be a very hot topic. But we love what we learn from the Old Testament about temples. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And even though you don't have a temple functioning currently, although you typically call your synagogues temples, but you also have a shared love for what we learn about the temple and holiness and so on in the Scriptures. So I'm excited to talk to you about this and would love to see where you would like to take us.

Speaker 2:
[09:33] It's actually an interesting point you bring up, Kerry, that I didn't think about. And that is where this name for synagogues that we call temple came from. Historically, synagogues were synagogues. I believe it's either a German or an American adaptation where Jews change the names of their synagogues to call them temples so that they could seem a little bit more familiar. I think Christians would be more, maybe the thought was Christians would be more comfortable with the idea of worship in a temple than in this foreign thing called the synagogue that maybe they didn't understand. But you're correct. A synagogue, some of a synagogue is modeled on the structure of the ancient temple in Jerusalem, but it is not the temple. And actually there are very clear, distinguishing features in the synagogue that are meant to make it clear that this is not the temple and that the restrictions that would have applied in the temple certainly don't apply there. So I'm really excited to talk about this with you and I'm thanking you for having me on. I guess you gave me a bunch of topics that you said might be interesting for interfaith comparison and this one jumped out at me because of a conversation I had with a missionary who was doing his daily study and was reading through the Old Testament and could not understand why so many chapters were being taken up at the end of the book of Exodus with the details of the construction of the tabernacle.

Speaker 1:
[11:16] Latter-day Saints have the same question which kind of flabbergasts me. Well I guess a Mormon missionary is a Latter-day Saint. That's right. It flabbergasts me because if there's a temple-oriented group around today, it's us. Well I mean there are others but we certainly are, right? So I think, well duh, of course. But anyway, sorry, keep going.

Speaker 2:
[11:39] I'm with you. I said, how can you not appreciate this? Of all the Christian denominations of the world, Latter-day Saints should understand that the structure of a temple should take up an enormous amount of space. It's such an important feature of life for Latter-day Saints, that you shouldn't be surprised that it takes up so much space. He found it a bit boring and it can be. Because the Old Testament is very careful to be detailed and precise with everything that was brought towards the construction, all the measurements, all the work that was involved. And you can get caught up in the details so much that you don't see the forest for the trees. The idea is, it's chapter after chapter in order to signify its importance in daily worship, both in the time when the Israelites were wandering through the wilderness with the tabernacle, and certainly later when the temple became the central figure of religious life in the time when the people were dwelling in the land, both before the Babylonian exile and afterwards as well. So I remember very clearly the first time that I saw a temple, a Latter-day Saint temple. I actually have seen a temple. Don't worry, I was in there during an open house.

Speaker 1:
[13:14] Yeah, I understood.

Speaker 2:
[13:15] When I was allowed.

Speaker 1:
[13:16] And by the way, right now, there's an open house for a temple like less than a mile from my house, the Linden Temple. And so you are, if you come down, we'd love to make sure you can get in there. And if we could, we'd go with you or whatever, but I'm not expecting.

Speaker 2:
[13:31] Oh, I'd love to see it.

Speaker 1:
[13:32] But yeah, I want to just extend that. To make sure everyone knows that there's an open house for a temple happening until the middle of April.

Speaker 2:
[13:41] So well, professor, you know, I'm going to be in Salt Lake next year for the opening of the of the Salt Lake City Temple, which I know is going to be a huge, huge event in the church. And I'm marking that time on my calendar to. And I hope many of your listeners will as well. Am I correct that that is the only temple that has a Holy of Holies inside of it?

Speaker 1:
[14:09] It's the only one that's functioning. The only temples that were built before the Salt Lake Temple was finished had Holies of Holy.

Speaker 2:
[14:16] Oh, interesting.

Speaker 1:
[14:17] Not all of them, whatever was the closest one to Salt Lake at the time. So initially St. George, and then when the Mantai Temple was built, it was closer and then so on. But anyway, but they are no longer functioning in Holy of Holies. They're now sealing rooms and so on. But yeah, so there is one in the Salt Lake Temple.

Speaker 2:
[14:38] Jews get very excited with this idea that there's a Holy of Holies because we only hear about this space almost mythically. Right in the later Jewish writings, in the rabbinic writings, it's made clear that the only one who was allowed in the Holy of Holies was the High Priest, and only allowed one day during the year, on the day of atonement, he would come in and cleanse the inner sanctuary on behalf of the whole people. And if God was not particularly forgiving that year, he wouldn't make it out alive. So I remember as a kid hearing about the story of the Holy of Holies and the fear, not only upon the High Priest, but of everybody when he would go in and perform his sacred duties there with all the other priests sort of praying that he would go in and he would leave in healthy and in a good state. So I get very excited by that. And I'm really looking forward to seeing the new renovated Salt Lake Temple. The first temple that I saw was in Manhattan. I was, I think I was maybe 18 years old and a friend of mine who was a member of the church in my college brought me to see the Manhattan Temple. It's now under renovation. I just was there a couple of weeks ago. And I'm hoping to go to go see it again when they have the open house prior to the renovation. And also last year, the Toronto Temple right here was was dedicated or rededicated, I should say. So I had a chance to see the the open house twice. I came once myself with a group of interfaith participants, but I had too many questions. So they told me to come back alone afterwards. And I got and I got a private tour. Shout out, by the way, to President Casado of the Toronto State who gave me a private tour of the of the temple prior to its opening. And I saw some really cool rooms that you don't see on the normal tours. But the the first time I saw a temple, I was surprised by the idea that the Garden of Eden, that the story of Adam and Eve figured so prominently in the imagery. I was expecting, like any naive person who knew very little about the church, that I would walk in and see busts of Joseph Smith everywhere. And it would be sort of an LDS paradise with pictures of the prophets and maybe historical prophets. And I was expecting something very different, not expecting almost to walk in to a space that seemed awkwardly familiar to my imagination, right? Like familiar to me because, oh, it's the Garden of Eden. I get this. It feels comfortable. I'm seeing veils and I'm seeing spaces and rooms and entrances and exits and very celestial kind of decor. Like it really elevates you. And it took me some time to understand the connection between the temple and the Garden of Eden. And it's a connection that's found within the text that not everybody realizes either Jews who are trying to connect the tabernacle, the ancient tabernacle to the story of Eden, but also Latter-day Saints who I'm not sure understand that the imagery of Eden is not just something you find in modern temples, it was part of the design of the ancient tabernacle as well. The introduction to this entire section of the Bible that's devoted to the building of the tabernacle is in Hebrew, Va'asu Limikdash, make for me a sanctuary that I may dwell within them. Veshachanti betocham, what's interesting, all the commentaries pick up on this, that God does not want to dwell within it. The Bible says, dwell among them. Build me a sanctuary, not so that I can have a house, but it's so I can be with you again. And the tabernacle, the introduction to the tabernacle, being with the people harkens back to the only other time earlier in the Bible where God was with the people, and that was in Eden. The Bible, I call your reader's attention specifically to the word, mit haleich. Mit haleich is to walk from the word la lechet, to walk, right? Very strange. Jews have to struggle with this because what does it mean that an incorporeal God is walking with the people, but in the Garden of Eden, it says that God is there, walking among the Garden. And later in the Book of Leviticus, when the temple is described, or when the tabernacle is described, this is in chapter 26, God says, Veitalechti betoch echem, if you fulfill my commandments, I will walk among you and be with you in your tabernacle. So the whole introduction to the tabernacle is a hearkening back to God wanting to be with the people again. There was, Eden was a moment of intimacy, where men dwelled with God in such a close way, that God was sort of lonely after Eden didn't work out. And was yearning for a time when he could dwell among us again. And that's what the temple represents, that word to walk. It's more than just to dwell, it's to be within us, to feel what we're feeling, to descend and experience what mankind is feeling. It's incredible that God has that desire not to pull away, but ever since Eden didn't work out to say, I miss you, I want to be with you again.

Speaker 1:
[21:36] And maybe I can even point out this connection as you use, you talk about me to locker, it's a rare form of the verb for walking.

Speaker 2:
[21:44] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[21:44] It's not used very often. Yeah, yeah. Well, and reflexive in some ways. And so you get this, I think it strengthens that tie. There are only, and in fact, I wrote a paper with a colleague of mine once on all the times that that form of the verb was used. And it's not very often. And so it strengthens the tie between Eden and what's happening in the Tabernacle because it's not the normal way you're going to talk about walking.

Speaker 2:
[22:11] Totally. It cannot be a co, exactly. This cannot be a coincidence that you find the same Hebrew word in both those sections of the Bible. I think it's Genesis 3 and Leviticus 26. There's much more than just that that connects Eden to the Tabernacle. There's also the sense that man had a responsibility when he was placed in Eden. And one of those responsibilities was to work the land, to do work, whatever that means. Later, that work gets transferred as descriptive of all of the duties that took place in the Tabernacle. It's called, even to this day, Jews use the word avodat ha-mishkan, the work that is done in the temple or the work that is done in the Tabernacle. So, there's another term there, la avod, to work or to fulfill your duties that's also found in both sections, as if in earlier in Genesis, expectations are given by God that man has to be in relationship and it's gonna require effort. It's not gonna be easy. And all these later chapters in the Bible explain, yeah, it's not easy and here's a whole bunch of stuff that we're gonna have to do on a daily basis in order to maintain that relationship, whether it's the daily sacrifices, the penance sacrifices, the incense that's burned on the altar, these are activities that are all designed to show we're ready to put the effort into a live relationship with the Creator and not just sort of bask in the glory of God's protection. If we want a relationship, we have to take action. If we sinned, we've got to follow up with a sacrifice. If we're feeling grateful, we got to follow up with a sacrifice. It all goes back to the Garden of Eden. Choices, responses, not just enjoying the liberties of a free life in paradise, but understanding that an ideal relationship with God requires effort. There's more, too. There's the seven branch candelabrum, which looks like a tree, very similar to a tree. I don't have to explain to you the connection to the trees in the Garden of Eden. The Book of Proverbs calls the Bible a tree of life. It shall be a tree of life to those who hold fast to it. And of course, in the center of the Holy of Holies, inside the Ark of the Covenant, you have the Ten Commandments, or a symbol for the Ten Commandments, and the intense spirit of law that shines forth, right? Out of Zion shall come forth the law and the Word of God from Jerusalem. And we call that the Tree of Life. So right at the center of the Tabernacle is this Tree of Choice that gives us an ability to activate our agency and choose God by following the Commandments. And then we don't have the time to go into it, but I'd say one of the major sections of the Book of Exodus talks about all the clothing that the high priest has to wear. And it's very, very detailed. The breastplate, talk about the earm and thumb and the special hat and all. So working in the temple requiring special garments. Well, special garments are also introduced in the story of the Garden of Eden at the beginning of Genesis. So even though the first time I saw a temple, I couldn't understand the connection between a house of worship and the Garden of Eden. The connections reveal themselves in the Bible in such an extraordinary way. And it beckons us to ask, well, what is the reason? Like, what's at the heart of this connection? It's an open-ended question. Why do I need to feel like Eden when I walk into the temple? I think, for Jews, there's a sense that, as I said earlier, there's a sense of closeness that existed in Eden. And we've been trying to make up for that ever since. Now, I know that sounds very original sin-y, and Jews do not believe in original sin. I would say it's not as theologically powerful as that idea is for many Christians. For Jews, it's just the sense that God wants us with them, and that the closest place we ever had to that was in the Garden of Eden, and that the closest place we ever had to that on Earth was, I'm saying years later, was in the Tabernacle and in the Temple. The presence of God was literally there. What we call in Hebrew, the Shekhinah, the dwelling of God rested upon the people in that place. And when you, I think, walk into the celestial room in any LDS temple, that's the feeling that ought to fill your spirit. That here I am as close as I could ever possibly become to being in the physical presence of the Creator of the universe. And this is where I want to be, right? This is where God wants to be, and this is where I want to be. And I think that moment of purity, if it doesn't give you a sense of rejuvenating spirituality, if it doesn't light your fire, then you're missing out. And I think when you go into the temple, don't just walk in like I did and not know. I'm hoping by reviewing some of these ideas that your listeners, when next time they go into the temple, can understand. This is a place, it's not that God is living in this house, right? It's that God walks among us when we walk into his house.

Speaker 1:
[29:27] Beautifully said. I have to tell you, I love what you're talking about. I've written a book comparing ancient temples, specifically Tabernacle and the Egyptian temple, to modern temples. It's gone to the publisher. I'm right in the middle of revisions of it right now, but it's designed to come out when the Salt Lake Temple is being rededicated. Amazing. I start out that the very beginning, the first pages are exactly this idea, this idea that we sensed the loss of the presence when we were once able to be with God. We sensed that loss and that the purpose of ancient temples and modern temples is to help us overcome that loss and enjoy God's presence again, or the leaf-nay, to be before his face kind of a thing. That's exactly, and I use some examples of people who sense this difference in the celestial room and the idea of holiness and being able to be in God's presence because of holiness and so on. This is an idea that really resonates with Latter-day Saints, I think, although I hope probably not with as many as we would like, but hopefully we're making that so that even more understand exactly what you're talking about. So thank you for that. And I'll just add that I think that it's the purpose of ancient temples almost universally, this notion that there was a time when mankind dwelt with deity and that time was disrupted and one of the major, well, probably the major purpose of a temple is to allow some kind of reconciliation and reunion.

Speaker 2:
[31:05] I would agree with you. Right. And I think that something very beautiful about being in that celestial room, I'm sure you have this in your book, but the major distinguishing feature of the Israelite temples is that there was no idol in the center of the temple that would attract your attention. You had to feel that closeness in your spirit. And that sense of restoration and reconciliation doesn't come from stone. It doesn't come from gold. It's got to come from inside of you. And I think the power of being in that room and just sitting there and breathing and hearing yourself breathe. The spirit of God manifest in that room comes from the fact that there's nothing to see. Only an intention that one ought to feel. So I'm very jealous because Jews have been praying for the rebuilding of the temple for 2,000 years and we're still waiting. And I'm jealous that Latter-day Saints can whenever they want, as long as they have their card, can walk into any temple in the world and have that experience. And hopefully it's one that changes your perspective on daily life. It's not just about reconciling with God at that moment, but turning our hearts so that the way we live our life can restore a sense of Eden, even in Toronto or Utah, wherever we find ourselves, that it is possible to make of this world an Eden, if only we have our hearts in the right place.

Speaker 1:
[33:03] Amen. And in fact, I'll tell you, I'd love your feedback on this. I think that there's a way that's reflected in what we read in the Tabernacle, because the high priest is an interesting figure, that in some ways he's representing Israel coming before God, and in some ways he's representing God to Israel. And you almost see that in the, so not on the, I mean, it is in the Day of Atonement as well, but that's one day of the year. But in the daily ritual, you have a high priest that goes all the way to the veil, right, and offers up incense and so on. And in some ways is representing all of Israel going there. But as he comes out, he really seems to be representing the Lord coming out to his people and bestowing this beautiful priestly blessing on the people so that they go forward in their daily lives with God smiling on them and God being with them and so on. And that way they have exactly what you're talking about. It's not just in the temple. It should radiate from the temple out into wherever we go and everything we do.

Speaker 2:
[34:11] So today is March 30th. It's Holy Week for both of us. It's Holy Week for you. That's true. But it's Holy Week for Jews as well. The Passover begins in a couple of days. And in Passover, in all of our synagogues, this is only done on the pilgrimage holidays. On the pilgrimage holidays, we ask everybody who is a descendant of Aaron the priest in our congregation. They're called the Kohane. Kohane just means priest. We ask all the Kohan name in the congregation to ascend upon the pulpit, to face the congregation, and to bestow the congregation upon them the priestly blessing. The priestly blessing is May the Lord bless you and keep you. May the Lord cause His light to shine upon you. It's in the Book of Numbers. This is a very special ritual. When you were speaking about the priest representing God, I thought of what we're supposed to do in the congregation. I'm not a Kohan, so I'm in the congregation. I actually walk down off the pulpit and stand in the congregation. And I'm supposed to cover my eyes with my prayer shawl, not to gaze on the high priest. And why is that done? So that you don't think that it is the priest who is blessing you. The priest is the vessel, the Kohan is the vessel by which God's blessing flows to the people. He is the invoker. He summons God to bless the people. That is, in our synagogues, I would say the closest we get to a temple-like moment of spirituality and majesty without actually having the physical structure. We're going through a ritual that was done in the temple when the priests used to bless the people. So we still do that, but it's only four times a year. It's coming up in two days. So if you go into your synagogue, you see everybody covers their face, and the high priest makes a special sign with his hands, all to invoke God's blessing upon the people. He is both exactly as you say, a vessel for God's blessings, and also particularly in his role in the temple, an emissary, a servant, on behalf of the people, meant to embody their sacrifices, both their physical ones, but more importantly, the sacrifices, their desires, and places them upon the altar so that it could be accepted before God, and God could ultimately redeem them of their pains. So I'm with you, 100%. I think the priests today still play that role in the synagogue, and who knows, maybe one day I hope to live to see a temple re-built in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what we're going to do there, and who the high priest is going to be. I'll leave that to prophets to figure out. But it would be cool to have, and I'm jealous that Latter-day Saints have that, whenever they want. Just keep your cards in good standing.

Speaker 1:
[37:36] That's right. Well, wonderful. Well, anything else in particular you'd like to talk about?

Speaker 2:
[37:44] Well, I hope one day we'll get to, we're going to talk about the Red Heifer and the Red Heifers role in this. There's much more we can talk about with regards to temples and tabernacles. But I think we'll save it, Professor, for a later podcast. I have too much fun with you and covering for your listeners and also for myself. So much of what is hidden in the text that I think the Restoration helps to reveal.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] Well, thank you. I love this discussion we've just had. It is meaningful, I hope, for if we had some of your congregation tune in and some of my congregation tune in at the same time, I believe it would be meaningful for both in terms of their intellectual pursuit of God and holiness, but also, I hope, in terms of their daily life and their heart and their walking with God. So thank you for helping us walk through that.

Speaker 2:
[38:45] My honor and pleasure. I enjoy this so much, Professor. I cannot tell you. And God bless you all. And I wish you a happy Holy Week. And I hope that it's not only celebrated, but that its message is internalized for all of your listeners. And may it lead to a world where we can more, better embody the attributes of sacrifice for the sake of others. We need that desperately in our selfish world. And that is a kind of love that I wish upon all of you.

Speaker 1:
[39:19] Well, welcome to The Scriptures Are Real. In this segment, I am so glad to have back with me someone that our long-term audience will be familiar with, but we have a whole bunch of people who are new with us. Welcome to the podcast family. We love having everyone along. I'd like to introduce you to Rabbi Joe Charnes, or Charnes, or you say it's said both ways, right?

Speaker 3:
[39:39] My dad apparently changed it to Charnes because people were calling him Charms. The family name apparently is Charnes in English, and he changed it. So I say, I found that out in my twenties. I say Charnes, but if you say Charnes, the rest of the family will bless you.

Speaker 1:
[39:58] I understand that. Anyway, we're glad to have you back. It's nice being here. You've been with us for many wonderful segments, both in what we would call the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. You've studied the New Testament, so we've had great discussions. I think we even did a Book of Mormon episode together, I'm pretty sure.

Speaker 3:
[40:17] I remember James, did we do a Book of Mormon?

Speaker 1:
[40:20] Maybe not. I can't remember. I'll have to check. But anyway, we are glad to have you with us today. And what we're going to talk about today is we're going to cover some chapters in Exodus that actually come follow me. The reading program doesn't have us read. We skip no chapters in Genesis, but for the whole rest of the Old Testament, there it's just too much to cover in one year and read everything. And I understand why we're not reading these chapters. It's not a criticism at all. They have very technical details, but they are about how to build, their instructions really, how to build a tabernacle or which will then be used as they build the temple. And for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, this becomes very, very relevant. This is important to us. And for me, especially right now, and people where I live, because as we're recording this, we're in the middle of the open house for the Linden Temple. And I've been volunteering at that and so on. We're very excited about that. And I'm in the middle of writing a book on ancient and modern temples. So this seems to me to be incredibly relevant to us. And we have Rabbi Joe to help us.

Speaker 3:
[41:31] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I'm looking forward to this. And you're not alone. Your community is not alone in skipping selected portions of the Book of Exodus or Leviticus, especially, often numbers.

Speaker 1:
[41:48] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[41:49] They get passed over.

Speaker 1:
[41:52] Yet I love Leviticus, but that's OK.

Speaker 3:
[41:55] That I would love to have a discussion with you on. That's fascinating. I remember one time I taught on Leviticus and was at the Air Force Academy. And we were having our high holiday service. And we had, please, no visitors were having a special service, but people came in anyways. So fine. And I spoke on Leviticus. And at the end, several people said, we want to study Leviticus now.

Speaker 1:
[42:23] Good.

Speaker 3:
[42:23] So there is potential there. There is. All right.

Speaker 1:
[42:28] But today, Exodus.

Speaker 3:
[42:29] Today, Exodus. Yeah. Yeah. And the chapters that we're going to focus on for our reading that actually is not being read, the chapters are Exodus 25 through 30, because you read 31 is my recollection. You read 31 through 34. And then 35 through 40, but you skip 25 to 30. And what 25 to 30 discusses is it's related to 35 through 40. Right. It is. There's a lot of repeat. The difference is, and we're going to go through portion of it, very small portion, just to get a sense that I hope inspires everyone to look through it on a deeper level. But this is the beginning discussion after Sinai and the legal instruction. Now we're getting the directions or the instructions for what we need to build this tabernacle, this Mishkan. And in 35 through 40, it's the construction. So we have instruction from 25 through 31, although 31 has some other things in it that we'll discuss. And then 32 through 34 is a seeming diversion because it deals with the golden calf and the renewal of the covenant. And then 35, we're back to the building of the tabernacle that began here. And we might get to this, but the question, why this interruption? Why this interruption? Why not have instruction and construction together? And we'll probably get to that. If not this time, next time. We got four years to figure this out. But what happens here, and this is true for all of us, we're dealing with holy structure, holy place, and often we live our lives on this plane without reference to potential holy encounter with place. We don't think of place necessarily as holy, and certainly not our regular space. Temples, synagogues, churches, mosques, okay, that's a holy place, but there's something interesting here that, again, we often live our lives without reference to the potential for holy encounter with place, period. Not a holy place, but holy encounter with place. And it's interesting, the word for place in Hebrew is makom. It means a place. A holy place or just a generic place. But there are many names of God in the Bible, in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. The rabbis also came up with names for God to give more insight into. The names are defining qualities. But this is a fascinating, I've always thought about it. I remember the first time I heard about it and I thought it's brilliant, but I have to think about it. One of the rabbinic names for God is Hamakom, the place. What's the idea behind this? What I think they're trying to say is that we can encounter God, the divine, the holy in every place. It is the place. The place that you are, wherever you are, is a potential encounter with Hamakom, not the place, which is what it means, but the one who is beyond space, place, time, who is filling this place, if we make ourselves available within. So this idea of holy encounter with place, this leads me into the tabernacle, the Mishkan, because we're going to discuss this holy mobile structure or sanctuary. It's a mobile structure, right? Build it, take it down when we move. And this teaches, I think, think again, we're always trying to make these ancient texts, especially the details that seem so distant from our lives, we're trying to make them relevant for our sacred walk. I'm not living in the desert and I don't have a tabernacle. Let's skip these chapters. What I think this is offering us insight into is that we need reminders that holy space or place or holy presence must accompany us in our journeys through life, especially where are they right now? They're in the wilderness. That's when we always and most deeply need holy presence. And so we're taking this structure with us throughout as a reminder of holy presence, holy place, holy space. But that's a metaphor, a masha'l for us in life that in every place, we always need a structure. It doesn't have to be a structure without. It's a place within. And what's interesting about this, the structural narrative of Exodus 25 through 30 basically giving us all of the details and the contributions and the instructions for building this holy tabernacle, this mishkan. It's telling us two things, that holiness of place is always present. It's a makom, the place where the divine is. But it's dependent upon us also, that we have to contribute our presence to that holy presence of place to receive it. Just like we're contributing all of the materials that are necessary to build this tabernacle. Holiness, holiness, holy space, holy place doesn't just happen. We have to contribute, participate, and then build. It's a practice that we build. And what is interesting about these, according to the rabbis, all of these, again, details that we have no real practice for in our lives. We're not doing this. But all of these details can be read through a broader sort of lens or narrative that the rabbis understand this as, which is, these are celestial patterns for a terrestrial edifice. That's Nahum Sarna's language. These are details. But they're celestial patterns for a terrestrial edifice. And that's what's so beautiful, because what it's telling us is the heavenly, the celestial. And heaven is now here on earth through our engagement with. The heavenly is always present, but we have to participate and build. Otherwise, it's not going to come. And what is most fascinating, I mean, if you start looking at the detailed structure of it, which I don't want to overwhelm with details, but many sacred traditions have sacred numerology. There are special numbers, right? So Judaism and Christianity share a lot of them, right? One for the one God, okay? Three, eight, 10, 11, 12, 18. We got a lot of numbers. Seven is a key number in many traditions. This section of instruction, okay? This section of instruction from 25 through 31 is broken up into, at least it can be broken up, into seven sections, and they all begin with the same theme, and the Lord spoke to Moses, you know? That is a marker, and there are seven distinctive themes. If you look at the materials that are being contributed at the beginning of Exodus 25, it's seven broad categories of materials, another seven. So there are many layers here that are giving us hints, and you say, okay, well, how do I find meaning? Well, first, we have to recognize there are deeper layers, deeper potentials, deeper meanings, and then we can start trying to understand the symbolism of these. But first, we have to recognize there is sacred depth here. But one thing that I realized as I was going through it this morning, didn't happen last night, it happened this morning. We're beginning with from 25 to 30, essentially, are the details, the instructions. Once we get to 31, all of a sudden, we're discussing the who, who is going to build, right? We got Ptsalel son of Uri, son of Hur from the tribe of Judah. Love that name, Ptsalel, like in the shadow of God. Okay, and he's the son of my light. That's...

Speaker 1:
[52:51] That is cool.

Speaker 3:
[52:54] In the shadow of God, son of my light. See that? Shadow, light, it's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. So the first part, the first 11 verses deal with who is going to be... It's the sort of construction folk, right? The builders.

Speaker 1:
[53:11] Of chapter 35.

Speaker 3:
[53:12] Of chapter 31. 31. So 25 to 30 are the instructions. And then we've got the personnel, chapter 31. The Lord spoke to Moses, see I have, you know, set apart, singled out by this person named Ptsalel son of Uri. But once you get to 12 through 17, the last... How many verses would that be? Six? My math is right. Yeah. Then it's the Sabbath, the observance of the Sabbath. And then we get the golden calf. It's very interesting to me that they attached Sabbath observance to the instructions by the tabernacle, which in Hebrew is called a mishkan, which has the root idea in it of dwelling, right? Dwelling.

Speaker 1:
[54:05] Dwelling, but like not the permanent dwelling place. It's the temporary dwelling place.

Speaker 3:
[54:10] Right. It's not yeshav. Very good. And if you look in fact in verse eight, 25 verse eight, it uses this word. It says, and let them, okay. Let them make for you this holy place, right? Or in the melody we have, so let them make for me a sanctuary you would think it would say, and the rabbis note this, that I may dwell in it. Right. The language is among them. Is that how it translates it in the King James?

Speaker 1:
[54:46] Yeah. And that's exactly right. To dwell among them.

Speaker 3:
[54:49] Them. But it seems like it should have been the it. The references to the mikdash, the holy place.

Speaker 1:
[54:56] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[54:57] And yet it's a them.

Speaker 1:
[54:58] Yep.

Speaker 3:
[54:58] Because ultimately, that place is a space to allow the divine to dwell within us. But it's every place.

Speaker 1:
[55:09] To have community really and communion.

Speaker 3:
[55:11] Yes, absolutely. So this idea of dwelling, it's right there, v'shochanti. And the word in English, they say shekinah, the shekinah glory, the shekhinah. That's this noun for it's the indwelling presence of the divine.

Speaker 1:
[55:26] Right.

Speaker 3:
[55:27] So what is interesting is here we're talking about building a structure where the holy can dwell. But in us. But it ends with, in 31, 12 through 17, Exodus 31, 12 through 17, it ends with keeping the Sabbath. And my thought, as I was thinking about it, why the Sabbath? Already had Sabbath commandments a few times. What do we need another Sabbath commandment for? Mentioned a couple of times. In fact, we sing it every Saturday morning with a melody. We sing portions of those verses for that reminding us of the Sabbath. But what's fascinating is I think here we are dealing with the instructions for building a holy place, a Mishkan. But by attaching the Sabbath to this, I think we can say just by the narrative alone, the question is, are we also building a Sabbath place, holy Sabbath structure in our lives? Why would they pair those two? I don't think it's, I think it's intentional. It's not accidental.

Speaker 1:
[56:50] It's always intentional.

Speaker 3:
[56:51] So we've got holy time and holy place. But what I think by pairing these two, it's saying, are we building a holy Sabbath tabernacle? Not just keeping it. I dotted my eyes and crossed my T's. Am I building a life that is grounded in Sabbath? That's just as central to our sacred lives and sacred dwelling of the divine as a holy structure. That's another tabernacle of holiness, the Sabbath. So don't lose sight of the Sabbath as part of our tabernacle life. Right.

Speaker 1:
[57:34] And when you think about it, like so, a mikdosh, a holy place, a place that is set apart, it's different than everything else. What is the Sabbath? It is the day that is set apart. It's different than all other days. In both cases, it's designed, it's different because it's designed to bring you into communion with God. And so, I think there is a very strong theoretical, I mean, conceptual connection there, that the point of the place and the point of making time. So, now we've got space and time colliding as they do, is to have us become beings that are set apart to commune with God.

Speaker 3:
[58:17] Beyond time, who is beyond time and beyond place ultimately, yet, he is dwelling within us in a temporal context, right? A temporal setting, which gives us the transcendent sort of encounter with the divine. It's always there, but it's a blending of place, space and time. That's exactly what it is. Space and time, and both are tabernacles that will help us dwell in the fullness of the divine. And it's very beautiful, I think. And let's look at a couple of details here, maybe, just to get a sense of how we can build sacred, start off with space. Let's look at Exodus 25, 1. The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, okay, then it says, Speak to the Israelites, the children of Israel. Have them bring to me gifts from the heart of every person who moves him. Something, how do they say it in the King James?

Speaker 1:
[59:31] So willingly, but I think, yeah, he was moved upon with it.

Speaker 3:
[59:34] So this is, I was intentionally holding back this word for Yidvanulibai, Yidvanulibai, from the heart of one who gives. It's not, this isn't just the giving. I'm glad they added. This is a willing, gracious, total, voluntary gift.

Speaker 1:
[59:59] It's not you give because it's required. It's given because you want.

Speaker 3:
[60:05] Almost, it's interesting. It says, how do they translate the first part of it? Tell the Israelites?

Speaker 1:
[60:13] Speak unto the children of Israel that they bring me an offering.

Speaker 3:
[60:17] So it's interesting that that bring, it's also the word take, to bring this sort of elevated offering. Truma is like an offering that is lifted up. But it's take or bring. And then, but you're bringing your genuine, total, heartfelt devotions. These are offerings. That tells you how to build in our lives, not with this necessarily, not saying for everybody out there, we're not going to build one of these today. But we can build that holy temple within. The rabbis speak of that place within. That holy tabernacle or temple within. But it has to start with a dedicated, humble, devotional offering from the heart. It is just simply your complete, total giving from the heart. That's how we build holy place or space without a structure. When you're coming from that place, that is building holy worlds that we can all dwell in together. That's the first thought that I want to bring out from this verse, that it makes this ancient relic very relevant for us in our sacred walk so that we can have holiness of place wherever we go on the move, because this is what we're building.

Speaker 1:
[61:51] And I think there's a fantastic parallel here because the instructions for how to build the tabernacle start with, I need you to give to me willingly the material to build it. And then what happens, the first thing you encounter once you're inside the curtains that separate the tabernacle off is a sacrificial altar. The parallel, I think, is intentional. It has to begin with you giving of yourself to me. Then I can give myself to you. But in each case, it has to start with a willing giving.

Speaker 3:
[62:29] And speaking of Leviticus, what's the first offering that is described in Leviticus 1?

Speaker 1:
[62:37] I don't remember.

Speaker 3:
[62:38] It's Ola.

Speaker 1:
[62:38] Oh yeah. The total offering.

Speaker 3:
[62:43] Yes, exactly. It's not the only offering.

Speaker 1:
[62:45] And it's translated as burnt offering, I would guess.

Speaker 3:
[62:47] But it means it's completely burnt up. Nobody gets anything from that. It's just a pure, total offering. And then after that is the washing center, you know? And then that's in the court area. This tabernacle structure, it's a hundred cubits and it's divided into 50 and 50. The outer court area with the altar, the offering altar, and then the washing center, the labor. That's the first 50 units, cubits. The second, and what's in the center of that square of 50 units? In the exact center is the altar. That's its position. When you go into the second 50 cubits, there's the holy, and then the holy of holies, 20 cubits and 10 cubits. And in the center of that is the arc.

Speaker 1:
[63:43] The arc.

Speaker 3:
[63:44] The arc, which house the tablets. So even the diagram of it is telling you about the heart of what it means to have a holy structure, but metaphorically what it means to build a holy structure within that we can walk and live with in our daily wanderings, whether it's that wilderness back then or the wilderness of Utah or of Mongolia or wherever we are in life. We're all in a wilderness and we all need to construct holy place and holy time. One doesn't go without the other. We need both. We need to spend time in a holy place. We need a holy place and holy time together. It's not just a place. We have to dwell there. Let's go to verse 10. I'll leave you with this. It speaks of the first thing that we make in here. We've got all the details now from 1-9. We've got the materials that we're using to build.

Speaker 1:
[64:53] What they have to give of the heart in order to have what they need to build.

Speaker 3:
[64:57] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[64:58] The Shekinah.

Speaker 3:
[64:59] Right. So verse 10, it says they'll make an ark of acacia wood. Two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide and a cubit and a half high. Now verse 11 says something that the rabbis take note of. They want you to over it. The language here is overlay. Cover it with pure gold. Then it says again, cover it inside and out. Right? Two times.

Speaker 1:
[65:38] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[65:39] Overlay it with pure gold, cover it with pure gold, overlay it, cover it inside and out. The rabbis ask why inside and out? And then you make this molding around it. The rabbis often try to take the details of something very abstract and make it intimate, make it very relevant and practical for our lives. So they say overlay it within and without. Notice inside and out. It starts with inside and out. Often we can see something outwardly. We don't know what's inside. The outward looks, the outward aspects of it look wonderful, covered in gold. But what is it on the inside? This begins with, first of all, it's the ark. That's the most central and holy structure. That's what we begin with. We're not beguilding with the walls or any of the other structures. We're beginning, not even the offering, the altar, even the incense altar, not the table, not the menorah, not the lampstand in the holy. This is the ark. We begin with what is most central. And we make sure, the rabbis say this is a sort of a metaphor for a truly righteous person or life. That not only on the outside, all that glitters is not gold. Depends on what's inside. We cover the most central and holy structure inside, which we can't see, and outside with gold, precious, right, metal. And that's sort of a model for us that first are we seeking to build, not cover, but build our inner life? Are we seeking to build up our souls from within, or are we simply outwardly manifesting, looking like holy gold? We start with the internal. Make sure that has a wonderful, wonderful place of practice, so that we can cultivate that inner life, that inner godliness, that inner goodness, so that when we do glow without, like it says, it's got the outer part is covered with gold. That's only an outer representation of what was built up within. So our holy life have to begin internally, and manifest externally, not just we're wonderful actors or actresses living lives of holy gold. We start cultivating within. And that's just a wonderful detail about the most central structure within this ancient, holy dwelling place that reminds us that I have to be pure gold within my holy life, my holy living, in my holy service, in my holy giving, in my holy loving. And then I will be a metaphorically speaking, a living, breathing Mishkan, tabernacle that we all need in life, and we need for others to come and take refuge in with us. Because my tabernacle is not just for me. All these details here, we all have, and we all build them slightly differently, and we all worship in different houses, different tabernacles, different dwelling places. But ultimately, if we build up as a result of our sacred practice, that inner life, and we have that soulful, golden practice within, not just without, but that touches within, this world will become a more holy place to dwell in. And it will be a place of greater love, greater light, and of greater service, and of greater godliness, which is what we're all seeking to build through our sacred practice. So, that's where I would leave us, but I'll just live. For those who are going to read it, also 35 through 40, I'll just say it's not just about instruction or intention. You have to then put it into practice. That's what 35 through 40 is.

Speaker 1:
[70:27] That's a great way of looking at it.

Speaker 3:
[70:28] You have to follow up. But what happens? Here, one minute. It's a very interesting diversion. We can't just have instruction without construction. How often does this happen in our lives? We heard something, general conference. We read something through in our sacred text.

Speaker 1:
[70:47] We have the idea we should do something.

Speaker 3:
[70:49] Nothing is built in the end.

Speaker 1:
[70:52] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[70:53] What often happens in our lives is we get all of the wonderful instruction and we might even have the motivation. It doesn't ultimately end in construction, in building. This happens structurally right here. At chapter 32 through 34, it's the golden calf and the aftermath.

Speaker 1:
[71:16] Yeah, they start to build the wrong thing.

Speaker 3:
[71:18] Exactly. We focus on, it was a holy intention, but it went holy, W-H-O-L-L-Y, holy, off. I think it's actually a gift. It's an instructional holy gift that folks, we are often Exodus 25 through 31. But what often happens is then 32 to 34, that golden calf where we follow something that is seemingly at least on one level holy, but it leads us astray, and that keeps us from construction, from building. So we have to take note that it's not just them, the ancient Israelite, they are all of us. The rabbis teach that the maase avos simon labanim, that the deeds of our ancestors are assigned for us.

Speaker 1:
[72:22] I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 3:
[72:23] We often all trip up after holy resolution, holy instruction, holy blessing from our leaders. Then we get caught up in Exodus 32 to 34. Then the building of 35 through 40 of the Holy Structure doesn't take them. If we know the roadmap going in, we can take precautions, and we're still going to fail. We're human. But at least we now have the broader vision of I am dedicated, and now I'm going to be even more determined by service to build in spite of what is seeking to lead me astray. Which is common, and sadly, tragically it happens, and some of us don't recover. But we all have the potential to rebuild, to come back to that holy place, to build a holy place, and to gather together with people from other holy places, so we can reinforce each other, because we all need guides, because we're all going to get trapped in Exodus 32 to 34. And we all need each other to help bring us back, and give us instruction, so that we can, in the end, build, rebuild, build, rebuild these holy places, so that this world will be a holier place, filled with divine light and human love.

Speaker 1:
[74:11] That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you. And I have to tell you, the audience we have, just the most fantastic audience, The Scriptures Are Real podcast group, fantastic podcast, they'll go do fantastic things with this. They're going to be so grateful for what you taught them. And usually, I give our audience, and I'm still going to plead with that, I'm going to say, take something you learned here and share it with others. Build others up. Do it online and tell them about the podcast, that's great. And your Instagram or whatever, but do it in person. But I'm going to give a second challenge here because you've pointed out something and you may not have even realized you pointed it out, but I think you did. This chapter 25 starts with the willing heart part. But then we get to the part that you talked about, putting the gold on the inside, right? And in my mind, one of the themes that we're going to see when we get to the prophets is that it's not enough to go through the actions. It has to be internal. And the way to make it internal is this willing heart. And that's what will put the gold on that. That's what gets the gold on the inside, on the internal part, right? It's better to keep going through good actions than to do no good actions, even if it's not with a willing heart. But I'm going to ask our audience to ask themselves, what is something that I'm doing, that I'm not really doing with a willing heart? And see, we all have something. We can all identify something. There's no doubt, right? Maybe I did it last week with a willing heart, and this week it's not with a willing heart. But see if we can just work on that change so we get the gold on the inside. Because that's when we get the gold on the inside, that's when we're going to get the presence on the inside that you've talked about. And you've taught me that. So that's my encouragement for our audience this week. Thank you, Rabbi Joe, for teaching us that and wanting us to have to experience the presence of God by being a people and a place where he can be at a time when he can be. So thank you.

Speaker 3:
[76:14] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[76:15] All right. That was just good, clean, fun, wasn't it? Thanks for being with us on this journey. This is a journey that we do as a podcast together, and I hope that studying these things helps you become more holy. It brings the spirit into your life, and that will inevitably help you to be more holy. So let's think about now, remember the journey I'm talking about. It's a journey to be with God again. And we have been able to come into the courtyard because of all the things we talked about and the things the rabbis have talked about, but we're now more holy, less worldly. And what's the first thing you encounter in the tabernacle? Well, you encounter an altar. We could literally spend all day talking about the altar and the sacrifices that are associated with the altar. We're not going to do that very much, but I do want to at least have us think through what happens there. What you do is you sacrifice there. Now think about sacrifice. In sacrificing, you are giving up something. In some ways, you take this animal, and the laws of Moses are, you put your hands on the head of the animal, and not in all sacrifices, but in most, and you imbue it with a part of yourself. But what you're imbuing it with is your sins, most of the time. Then you'll kill that. Think about that. You are sacrificing your sins. You're sacrificing the natural man in you, the worldliness in you, the pride in you, the selfishness in you, whatever it is. Think of King Benjamin teaching that we have to put off the natural man and then become saints, right? That's what you're doing. You get rid of part of you, the wrong part of you, the worldly part of you. We are dual beings. We are beings with a fallen nature and a divine nature. We're trying to get rid of the fallen nature and let the divine show through. President Hinckley once asked us to let the divine within us shine through in all that we do. That's part of what we're saying. So you take this part of you, think again how we talked about baptism, you wash away the world and then you bring in godliness. You take the worldliness in you and you kill it. And you put it on the altar as it were. Now there's a dual symbolism to the altar. Yes, it is a symbol of your sacrifice, what you give up to come to God. And what you're giving up is something you don't really want to have in reality. Now you might want to have a lamb and a goat and so on, but we'll talk about that in a moment. But there's more symbolism because of course the sacrifices symbolize Christ. That's absolutely what they do. On the altar, there are four horns. Horns are symbolic of bulls, right? So in the ancient world, the two powerful animals you have to be careful of are lions and bulls. The horns of the bull, that's where you really fill the bulls power. So horns are symbols of power. And you take the blood of the sacrifice and you put it on the horns of the altar. This symbolizes the blood, the power of the sacrificial blood. We would call it the atoning blood of Christ and its sanctifying power. Right? So you, in a way, you're giving up something. And now in most sacrifices, some are completely consumed, but most sacrifices, you and the priest will consume part of it. All right? So you give up something. And then in the end, what you do is you partake of Christ. It's just like baptism. You're killing the fall apart of you. You're bringing in Christ. You're bringing in godliness to you. That's what happens at that altar. What's behind the altar? Well, there's a laver where you wash. You wash away the world. You could be washed from your sins, whatever it is, all right? After washing, in many cases, it might be anointing, at least in the cases of the priests that we read about, they're clothed and then anointed, and they both have the symbols with them. If we had time, we could go through with the different clothing, all the symbols of the clothing. That would be a whole episode in and of itself. But let's just say in short, clothing is being wrapped around in robes of righteousness, bringing godliness and God's power upon you. And there are all sorts of different symbols in the clothes to emphasize that. In some ways, they also, for the high priest, he's carrying Israel to God, but he's representing God to Israel, so on. But you're also anointed. Both the clothing and the anointing are symbols of taking the power of God into your life. So again, you wash away the world, you bring in godliness. There's another way we could say this. Isaiah, in Isaiah chapter 1, says, cease to do evil, learn to do well. Then he tells you that though your sins be red, they can be made white, and so on. But the idea is you have to consistently get rid of the world and bring in godliness. All of that changes you enough that now you can go into an even holier space. You're going to go into the tabernacle, the holy place in the tabernacle. You have to go through another gate, right? And so on. In the Patreon one, where we talk about Egyptian temples, we're going to talk about knowing names of gates and receiving names and that kind of a thing. We don't see it so much here. It's probably happening a little bit, but we don't really get it here. But in any case, you go through this doorway or this gateway, and you're now in the holy place. And let's go through the symbols there. When you come into the... and we could do so much more with all of us. I just want you to know, just blow your mind all the things we can do, but I'm just doing a reasonable amount here. So you come into the holy place and you look to the left and there's a menorah. All right. It is designed to look like a tree. It has almond blossoms on it. Now, almond, they're the first one to blossom, so they become a symbol of quick obedience. All right. But it's also designed to look like a tree, a Tree of Life. Remember that Adam and Eve lost the Tree of Life when they were cast out of God's presence. Now, they're regaining that to some degree. There's some great symbolism there as they're trying to return to be with God again. We're going to talk about the sacred time and becoming like that first pass in the Patreon one on the Egyptian temple and so on. But in any case, we're here. You look to the left, you see this Tree of Life. You're going to be able to gain God's presence to some degree because of that. How do you do so? Well, what it is is it's a lamp. It's got seven lamp stands and they're all burning so that you have light. Think of what we talked about with light and Moses in the episode for this week, the light of Christ and light and truth and so on. That's a really important, powerful symbol. The light is from olive oil. Olive oil is a symbol of the Holy Ghost in some ways. So we have the same symbolism. The Holy Ghost brings the light of Christ into your life, the light and truth into your life, the atoning power of Christ into your life and so on. Olive oil is also a symbol of healing because it's used for healing. It's something that you eat. Tons of symbols there. Now think you look off to the right. That's where the table of showbread is. It's spelled in the King James Version, S-H-E-W, but it's pronounced show. Showbread, all right? Twelve loaves for the House of Israel. So the covenant people, like making and keeping covenants are there. And there was water there as well. And so the idea is that we think that once a week, there was a meal, sacred meal there. It was at least exchanged once a week and they probably ate of it then. There's a sacred meal. Think of what we talked about again in this week's episode with the 70 elders of Israel having a meal with God and being welcomed into his household and how that's similar to the sacrament. They partake of this. It's like partaking of God. Think of the sacrament. You partake of God, you partake of Christ. So one of the interesting things is once you get to the holy place, we lose the symbols of washing away worldliness, but we still have lots of symbols of bringing in godliness. You're bringing in light, you're bringing in the Holy Ghost, you're bringing in the healing and wholeness, right? You're also bringing in Christ by eating and partaking of Christ, bringing in Covenant, 12 tribes, and eating of Christ, and you're welcomed into his household. When you eat in someone's house, you are part of their household. This is God's house, you eat with him, you are part of his household. It's amazing and powerful. All that makes you holy enough you can keep going. Well, what's the next thing? It's the altar of incense. The altar of incense is burning with coal brought from the sacrificial altar. All right, so we've got some more sacrifice involved in there, but it's especially the sanctifying power. So for example, in the book of Isaiah, Isaiah chapter 6, Isaiah sees in the temple, he sees the God and he knows he's not worthy to be with God. So they bring coal from the altar and this is right where he would see God. So it's got to be there in the holy place and they purge his lips with it. It sanctifies him, right? It's purging or sanctifying power. So that's part of it. But it also, we know, represents the prayers of the saints ascending to God. John tells us that. We have lots of other ways that we get that symbol. And so there's this prayer going to God and really, I would guess, asking God for the help to come into his presence. That's what we find on other temple systems, that the last thing that happens before him come into the presence of deities, you pray for help to come into their presence. And so you invite his power into your life with this petition and more godliness. Finally, with all of that, you are changed so substantially, you can come into the presence of God. There's the veil in front of them, the veil will part, and they come in to the Holy of Holies, where the Ark of the Covenant is, which is thought of as the throne of God. This is where God comes. And so symbolically, you've come into the presence of God. It is called the Ark of the Covenant because you come there by covenant and the power of Christ that comes by making and keeping covenants. The lid of that is called the Mercy Seat or Seat of Atonement. So think of that. It's Christ's mercy and his atoning power access through Christ and through covenant that allows us to finally come into the presence of God, to be there where we meet him, where we're in his presence. All of this because we've at this point become so godly, we can be with him. Our nature has been changed so substantially, we can be with him. My guess is that in many ways, what we will achieve in this life is what symbolically happens in the courtyard. And then we'll have other phases where eventually we are perfected enough or become so godly or Christlike that we can come into the presence of God. But think of all the different degrees of holiness. We've got the outside of the courtyard and then you can come in and there's that part and then there's the altar and then there's washings and anointings and clothings and so on. We don't come to God all at once. It's a long process of ever, ever, ever seeking the help of God to get rid of worldliness and bring in more godliness. Something we can only do. You can't make yourself more godly. Only Christ can make you more godly. You can work a little bit on getting rid of world, but you also need his help for that. But this is a long process. It's designed to be a long process where we are engaged with him to become increasingly holy. And I hope you think that through. My guess is you are more holy than you used to be. I can think of lots of things that I used to think were okay but now I think that's not okay. Why did I ever think that was okay? That's a sign I'm becoming more holy. We probably all have that. Ten years from now, I'll look back on what I'm doing now and say why do I think that was okay? Hopefully, we just keep becoming more and more holy. We try and get rid of our natural tendencies, our pride, selfishness, whatever it is, worldliness, and bring in more and more godliness. Make more time for God. Make more time for Christ. Make more time for all of that so that we can eventually regain God's presence because of the cleansing, sanctifying, justifying, sanctifying power of Christ, his atoning sacrifice, the Holy Ghost, and the power of our Father, whose presence we are seeking and whose presence we can gain because of our Savior Jesus Christ. Now, I invite you to think through, to study the Tabernacle, to think through the things you've learned today, and just think through a couple of things that you could do to become more holy. I also invite you to think through a couple of things that might help you understand our own temple experience better. And then I invite you to go to the temple and see what you learned there. And then I invite you to go and share with others. Take them to the temple with you. Take them to the scriptures with you. Be more holy with them. Help them to be more holy. Do something. You'll be inspired what to do. But go and help others be part of your holiness journey, your journey to be with God again. And let's do it together as a podcast family. We have such a great podcast family. You are all so much fun to be on this journey together with. And we are on this journey together. Thank you for that.