transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:09] All right, welcome to another exciting week at The Scriptures Are Real podcast. This week, we have a part two. Don't miss part one, but join us now for part two. There's so much good information. We needed to give you more about this. Welcome to another segment of our roundtable discussions. I'm Kerry Muhlestein. I have with me Dr. Andrew Skinner and Dr. Joshua Matson. We all teach or have taught at the BYU Religious Education, Ancient Scripture Department. Today, we're going to talk about one of the most pivotal stories in the Old Testament, and a crucial story that has some elements of it that are maybe a little disturbing or can bring up some questions, and that is the story of the Golden Calf. But to get to understand the Golden Calf, I think we're going to have to start earlier than that with just the whole approach to Mount Sinai, and I know we all have lots to say about that. I don't know, who would like to start us out?

Speaker 2:
[01:10] I would even take us back further and state that priesthood authority that operates in the lives of everyone from the time of Adam up to the time of Moses is Melchizedek Priesthood. There was no separate or lesser Levitical priesthood. There was no lesser law. It was all Melchizedek Priesthood. Religious and civil, civic government were merged into one under the patriarchs. So the opportunities for temple covenants, as I understand them, were available from the time of Adam to Moses. Then, of course, the children of Israel end up in Egypt, and there begins their great trial.

Speaker 1:
[02:00] Good. It's worth noting that it's not only the Melchizedek Priesthood, but that we're talking about the patriarchal order, which I've had an episode already kind of discussing what the patriarchal order is and that kind of a thing. So I'll remind my audience of that. But at least it is during the days of Jacob and Joseph, and I assume it's still that way as they're coming out. Although, you're right, it's a great trial while they are in Egypt, partially because of how difficult it is, but also it seems like they start to partake of Egyptian culture, and they're having some struggles with idolatry there as well. So that's a trial that in some ways they're failing.

Speaker 2:
[02:38] Yeah, it almost seems like they revert back to a kind of a state of spiritual immaturity as they lose connections with their fathers, with the early patriarchs.

Speaker 3:
[02:48] Well, and maybe even lose their identity. How much have we heard from President Nelson about this idea of our identity is where, if we understand who we are and what our most important identities are, we're able to fulfill God's plan for us. And so during those generations in Egypt, how much of their identity have they lost? And particularly that identity of priesthood, of covenants. And they've said, well, because we are enslaved and we're in this position, that must mean God doesn't care about us. We're going to adopt an identity that's different. And it's going to be, as President Holland has said, God could take the children of Israel out of Egypt, but he couldn't quite get Egypt out of them.

Speaker 1:
[03:37] Well, and I think it's worth noting, if we're going to look seriously at this, Rebecca, well, we don't really hear about her, but Rachel is definitely coming from an idolatrous background, right? And when Jacob is trying to take his sons to Bethel, he's pleading with them, please give me your idols. Let's finally get rid of these idols. And so these, they were struggling with idolatry, and maybe still are after Bethel. I don't know. We don't have any information about that. But they are struggling with idolatry, at least by the time they're going to Bethel. And this is the same group that's going to go to Egypt. So I don't know how far they ever got from idolatry when they went down among one of the biggest idolatrous nations of all time, right? The Egyptians have plenty of gods. And so it would not be hard for them to slip back into that.

Speaker 2:
[04:33] And that helps us to understand why a major purpose of Genesis is not only to teach Israel who they are, but whose they are. And as you say, the further away we get from the Holy Land and into Egypt, the easier it becomes to forget whose they are.

Speaker 3:
[04:54] And what a great lesson of it matters where we are, what places we frequent, what kind of things that we frequently ingest. We could talk about dietary laws, but more importantly, what kind of messages that we bring into ourselves.

Speaker 1:
[05:14] And where and who we are with.

Speaker 3:
[05:16] And so a lot of our identity and who we really are becomes shaped by where we spend our time and who we spend our time with. And the Israelites have done that and now God is trying to say, and moving the story along a little bit, when they come out of Egypt, the first thing God wants to do is come into my presence and come up to the mountain, come be with me. And there's a reticence, there's a hesitancy.

Speaker 1:
[05:43] Initially, they seem to be okay with it, like 100%. Okay, yeah, we'll wash our clothes if that's what you want us to do. We won't, we'll set boundaries around the mountain if that's what you want us to do. But then, as it starts to get real, it gets more scary for them, we could say. So sorry, keep going.

Speaker 2:
[06:03] If I can just interject, we find this very powerful verse in Exodus 19, where we learn that God really does want to bring Israel into their presence and make them his private treasure. That's what's meant by the English phrase peculiar people. It comes from the Hebrew segulah, which means private property, frankly, or treasure.

Speaker 1:
[06:30] And one that is so valuable because it's rare.

Speaker 2:
[06:33] Exactly. And so this is what God wants to do. And I think it's important to emphasize that Israel as a whole at first agrees with the plan. They accept the Lord's plan to become this kingdom of priests and priestesses, kings and queens, if you will, a holy nation and this private treasure to the Lord. And then things from there start to unravel.

Speaker 3:
[07:02] Well, and I think it's important in other places we can see, why are they peculiar, why are they a precious treasure? Because they're God's covenant people. They are part of the covenant. And I oftentimes, as we're talking about identity and covenant, I oftentimes have students come to me and say, Brother Matson, why is an eight-year-old making a decision about entering into baptism when they really don't fully understand what they're doing? Or why are children born in the covenant and we have a record of them? It's because of this. Because covenants bind us to God so much that even when we go astray or an individual strays off, that bond is still there.

Speaker 2:
[07:42] And that's a powerful bond.

Speaker 3:
[07:44] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[07:44] I mean, if we look at the history of languages, the Hebrew word is barit, correct? Comes from an old Assyrian word, barat, which literally means to weld, and so this is a strong relationship that we're talking about between God's people and God.

Speaker 3:
[07:59] And because they're the only people, as far as we know at this time, who've made those covenants, that's why God views them as precious.

Speaker 1:
[08:09] And let's say this, if I can add to that, precious, again, because of the relationship they have, but also precious because they're rare. Part of the reason they're rare is they're the only ones that have made that relationship. But in making that relationship, they've agreed to act more like God and less like the world. So they are different or rare in that, that they are willing to both find themselves to God and become more like God.

Speaker 2:
[08:32] And I think that's the critical point because Moses then does what you'd expect Moses to do. He begins to reveal to Israel their responsibilities that go with the covenant as covenant keepers. And when they start finding out about responsibilities, other than making bricks, they haven't had a lot of demands placed upon them in terms of spiritual living. So that's the crucial point at which things begin to unravel. Moses says, well, we have some things that God wants you to do to help you become just like God.

Speaker 3:
[09:11] And so God's going to give some of those insights. We get Exodus 19, as you just talked wonderfully about, Andy, Exodus 20, 21, 22, where we're going to have some of Moses giving that insight. But then we get to Exodus 24, and Moses is going to go up onto the mountain, and then he's going to be gone for a while. And there's all of these insights and this direction that God is going to give to Moses between chapters 25, and when we finally get to the Golden Calf in 32. But what's fascinating to me is, is while those are being given, the message isn't being relayed down the mountain. It's not a broadcast of Moses saying, oh, by the way, this is what I learned today. And so you have what appears as we start in Exodus chapter 32.

Speaker 2:
[10:00] Can I just back up and say, as part of what we see unfold in chapters 21, 22, 23, is what's known formally as the Code of the Covenant, or Israel's Constitution, if we can put it in those terms, things that make them unique. And part of that is expectations about their nationhood, that this is going to be a theocracy, whether we like calling it that or not, that's what it's supposed to be. And so part of that, to me, is the interesting revelation in Exodus 23, where we talk about the establishment of three yearly feasts called the Sanctuary Festivals. And those Sanctuary Festivals are the, the culmination of these three Sanctuary Festivals are to take place in either the Tabernacle or the Temple. So this, what is being revealed here in the Covenant Code, is intricately associated, intricately associated with the Temple. And those Sanctuary Feasts then are called also Pilgrimage Feasts or Pilgrimage Festivals. It's Passover, it's Shavuot and Sukkot, right?

Speaker 1:
[11:18] Which are the Passover Feast of Weeks and Feast of Booths in the way that most of our people do.

Speaker 2:
[11:23] Exactly. And that is built in. That's part of the calendar of what a Covenant people, a peculiar people, a special treasure do when they acknowledge Jehovah as their Lord.

Speaker 3:
[11:38] And that purpose is, like you said, Andy, to go back to the presence of God. You go to the Tabernacle, you go to the Temple to present yourself and in an essence make an accounting for this is how I have lived the way you've wanted me to for the, well, I mean, it's pretty close between Passover and Shavuot, because you're just dealing with 50 days. But it is, it's still, I'm making an accounting of where I'm at in keeping, being that person.

Speaker 2:
[12:10] And to me the point is, it's going to be at the Tabernacle or later on the Temple. And you read so many Psalms where the feature is the Temple, the pilgrimage festival ends up at the Temple.

Speaker 1:
[12:24] So to both of those points, maybe I'll back this up even a little bit further to set the scene for where you're going, Josh, which is, let's recognize God says, I want to bring all of Israel into my presence. Everyone comes into my presence. And as we said, they all say, okay, that sounds pretty good. Then two things happen. One, they see the glory of God. As he's coming down, there's lightning, there's thunder, they hear his voice. Most people miss that, but they actually hear his voice giving, speaking to Moses, giving the laws and so on. So all that starts to be overwhelming to them. And they hear what he's asking them to do. And all of that starts to be overwhelming to them. Both of them cause them, while God is trying to bring them closer to him, they allow those things to actually push them further from them. They're both actually designed to bring us closer to God, to recognize his majesty and to keep the laws which he gives us to help us act more like him, are designed to bring us closer to them. But the Israelite reaction distances them from God. So then they say, oh go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[13:29] And then, right after Exodus chapter 24, the Lord continues his part of the plan, he reveals the nature, the structure, the functioning of the tabernacle, which will later become the temple. So Exodus 25 through 31, the Lord is still moving forward, but it's Israel that's retreating.

Speaker 1:
[13:53] Exactly right, and there's a key element in this, that Joseph Smith teaches us. That is that because God wanted to offer them the blessing of coming into his presence, and they rejected it, according to Joseph Smith, this is why they get the lower law, this is why they get the carnal commandments. Now we usually associate that with the golden calf, and I think they're connected, so when we get the golden calf, we'll connect them. But there's an interesting bridge in chapter 24. So most of them have said, no, we won't go, but a small number of them are chosen to go. And they, on behalf of all Israel, well, all Israel enters into the covenant, but they kind of in a way, on behalf of all Israel enter into the covenant. They see 70 elders, and Joshua and two others, they actually do see God, they get to come into God's presence as representatives of Israel. So this is going to change things. Now Israel doesn't come to God as a whole, instead, they have intermediaries working on their behalf. And so you get 74 intermediaries that see God, and then you get down to one intermediary, Moses, who is, as you said, up with God. God is going forward with his plan, and Moses is receiving all this information, while the rest of Israel is going to be making choices that bring them further and further and further from God. And that goes back to the point you were making when we were about to jump in to Exodus 32, that they're not having this information relayed to them, and the reason they're not is because they chose not.

Speaker 2:
[15:30] That's right. They agreed.

Speaker 1:
[15:32] They said, please don't have God talk to us face to face. You go talk to him, then you come tell us what happens. And so choosing to distance themselves from God starts them on a sliding path, where they will slide even further, which brings us to the point you were making.

Speaker 3:
[15:47] Yeah. Well, and I love that you've highlighted that, because do we do that same thing in our lives?

Speaker 1:
[15:51] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[15:52] Do we choose to say, I don't want that responsibility, or I don't want that on my shoulders, or that seems too hard? And so I think we have to step back and reflect and say, am I on that same trajectory? Because if I'm not progressing, the only other option that I have is that I'm digressing.

Speaker 1:
[16:12] And I'm going to maybe even elaborate a little bit on that, because it's easy for us to hear you say, and I agree with you 100%, oh, I might say, I don't want that responsibility, and to think in terms of a calling, and say, well, no, I accept callings when they come my way. My guess is everybody here, everybody in the audience, have had times where the Spirit said, do this, and it was a little too scary for us, so we didn't, right? That's a smaller form of that same thing. It doesn't mean you're going to go to hell, let that happen, but it does distance you from God, as opposed to if you act on the prompting, it brings you closer to God, right?

Speaker 2:
[16:50] And I can testify to you from personal experience that when I have said, no, not right now, I have missed a huge blessing in my life. It isn't just that I'm a covenant keeper, but there's a huge blessing that God wanted to give to me, and it didn't happen because I chose it, not that.

Speaker 3:
[17:13] And in those moments, and I don't want to use this term lightly because it's used in Scripture, but when we turn away, I was going to say deny the Holy Ghost, but I don't think that's what we're doing, but we're turning away the Holy Ghost. When we turn away that prompting, what happens is, is that we then become more susceptible to opening up to the natural man and to the ways of the world. That's what I think is happening in Chapter 32.

Speaker 2:
[17:38] In fact, Joseph Smith would put it strongly. He says, the moment we retreat from anything that offered to us by God, at that moment, the devil takes power. And so, yeah, it's the tendency of the natural man, but it's even stronger than that. Scratch is knocking at the door.

Speaker 3:
[17:55] And that's what I think leads us into Chapter 32, is that it's those decisions that Israel has made up to this point. They didn't just wake up one morning and say, hey, let's build a, let's do this. But it was a culmination of frequent opportunities when they were invited and they chose to say no. And then, this is where we get, when the people had gathered together, because, and I love this phrase in verse one of Exodus 32, and when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount.

Speaker 1:
[18:31] When the, Moses is pretty busy, but yeah.

Speaker 3:
[18:34] So Moses is doing this, but they said, we've been abandoned by Moses. That's what I see in that delayed. Or, Moses is taking an awfully long time. We saw that glory. We saw the thundering. We saw the lightnings. Maybe Moses is dead.

Speaker 1:
[18:48] Yeah, I think that's a very real fear for them. Because remember, their fear was that they wouldn't survive the presence of God. That's part of why they said, Moses, you go talk to them. We don't know if we can survive the presence. So, it's very likely that they are saying, okay, maybe Moses didn't survive either.

Speaker 3:
[19:03] One of the things that I find fascinating is in our conversation, when the people come together, they come to Aaron and look at what they say, and they said unto him, up, make us gods, which shall go before us. So, this idea that you were talking about just a minute ago, Kerry, we're going to send up representatives before us. We're going to send Moses before us. Now, this is likely in their marching, and we know from an ancient Near Eastern context that whenever people would parade the statues of their deity, it was a means of being able to say, this is who we follow. But that phrase, someone to go up before us, well, it's putting somebody else in front and not taking that responsibility.

Speaker 2:
[19:48] Well, they've just had several months of that very thing by following Moses, who went before them, and Jehovah, who went before them.

Speaker 1:
[19:56] And I think this is worth considering. What they are accustomed to in Egypt is having statues, sometimes big, sometimes small statues. Then they would take small statues, and that would be their chance to interact with deity. And they didn't think the statue is deity. They thought that it represented deity, and the deity could come and inhabit it, and so on. But that was their opportunity to interact. And so I think this is part of it. To go before us, so that can be our intermediary. And this brings up a point that, as we're going to go on, I want everyone to maybe stop for a second, and think how this might be us. Because we are likely to see this story and say, weird, I've never been like that, I've never wanted to build a golden calf. And that's true. I've never had the urge to break off everyone's earrings, throw it into a fire, and build a golden calf. But what's really happening is that things that they have seen, things that have been around them, things that they're accustomed to, when something's a little bit tough, when maybe worship of Jehovah the way he's asking is tough, they slip into what everyone else is doing and what's easiest and most comfortable and they're accustomed to. And I believe all of us do that. When God feels a little distant to us, then we do what the world tells us to do. And that is a devastating thing to do.

Speaker 3:
[21:18] And this is one of the dangers of our modern time, is how often do we try to find that validation and that guidance by jumping on a computer, or jumping onto a social media platform or binge watching something. Exactly. Is that we try to say, well, I'm not getting the direction I want in this way, so I'm going to take a quick route. I'm going to do this. And that's not to say that all the content that we consume online or in social media is bad. But when that becomes our primary source, if that's what's going before us, that's where we miss it. Kerry, one thing I love about this podcast is, how many times are you pleading with those who are listening that this is not meant to replace your scripture study. This is meant to supplement your scripture study. We want you to go to the scriptures first and then come here if you want additional guidance. It's when we get those in the wrong order. When we go to somewhere first and then think we need to go to the scriptures. That's when we fall into that same trap.

Speaker 1:
[22:22] Very good. All right. So keep going with this.

Speaker 3:
[22:24] Yeah. So they're going to come to Aaron at the end of verse 1. They're going to say, the man that brought us out of Egypt, we want not what has become of him. We don't know what happened to him, but he's obviously not back. He missed his appointment. And so, Aaron, what do we do? We want you to fashion us gods. And then verse 2, and this is an interesting part because we know how integral Aaron is going to be moving forward in the Aaronic priesthood, this lower priesthood order. But Aaron said unto them, break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons and your daughters and bring them unto me. And all the people break off the golden earrings which were in their ears and brought them to Aaron. And he received them at their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool after he had made it a molten calf. And they said, these be thy gods. Now, it's interesting that Aaron doesn't make that statement. Aaron is doing the craftsmanship, but it says specifically, and they said, so this is the people saying, these be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

Speaker 2:
[23:38] Interestingly enough, that same phrase, these be thy gods, is repeated by Jeroboam in 1 Kings 12, as the ten tribes turn to idolatry, these be thy gods. Well, it's a direct quote, and he can say, it's a direct quote, it's from Scripture. Yeah, it is, but…

Speaker 1:
[24:01] And there's some interesting grammatical things that we won't go into here. In fact, I'll probably cover them when we get to 1 Kings 12, but there's some interesting grammatical things here that make it clear to me that they're trying to split hairs here. Maybe it's phrase this in a way that can make the monotheists among them and the polytheists among them all happy, which in the end, they're trying to serve two gods, and no one's going to be happy. And most of all, God's not.

Speaker 3:
[24:31] And I don't think it's a miss to say that here, that's probably what is happening with the Israelites, is that they're still those who are holding on to the Egyptian ideas. Moses is trying to introduce a new way of functioning as a covenant community, and there's still people among them. And so maybe part of this is actually, OK, we are going to sacrifice our peculiarity to try and find unity.

Speaker 1:
[24:58] Yeah, common ground. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:00] And this doesn't have a lot to do with the spiritual nature or discussion, but they have found archaeological evidence of these kinds of images. I remember hearing about a small calf that they found in Ashkelon, dating to about, what, 1600 BC or something like that. This is not an odd, one-off story here. They actually have proof of this kind of going on, so.

Speaker 3:
[25:34] No, and then, I mean, if we continue the story, maybe this is when things really start to get even further off track. It's not just building the idols, but then Aaron, when he saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, tomorrow is a feast to the Lord. Now, so they're going to offer sacrifices to these idols. Keep in mind that in the ancient world, oftentimes when you're making these sacrifices, I don't mean to be irreverent to the ancient world, but it's almost a community barbecue. And so that's part of what they're doing is they're saying, okay, well, if we're going to do this, we might as well have a feast, a large gathering. And so keep in mind that's part of what's happening.

Speaker 1:
[26:17] Oh, good. Good. And I think we can't miss to, and you quoted it, tomorrow is a feast of the Lord. That's Lord Small Caps, that's Jehovah, right? Aaron is specifically bringing Jehovah into this. I don't know, it's hard for me to figure out what Aaron is doing and thinking here. There are times where he looks okay in this story and times where he looks horrible in this story. And I can't figure out what's going on with Aaron.

Speaker 2:
[26:39] Is it possible that Aaron realizes the idolatrous consequences of his act and he's trying to steer people back towards true religion?

Speaker 1:
[26:48] It is possible. In the end, I can't figure it out. But that is possible.

Speaker 2:
[26:51] I can't either. He is really an interesting figure of this.

Speaker 3:
[26:56] Well, and that's your point. How many times do we sometimes do the same thing? Where we start to veer, but we're like, well, but it's not. I mean, to talk about some of these actions, I've heard a number of people give comments of, well, I don't give my tithing to the church, I give my 10% in other ways. But it's still tithing. And maybe that's part of what Aaron's trying to say here is, oh, we're not, we built these idols, but we're giving the sacrifice to Jehovah. It's not actually to these idols, we're sacrificing to the one true God.

Speaker 1:
[27:28] He is probably almost as good as me at rationalizing. Probably not quite. I mean, that's kind of-

Speaker 2:
[27:35] Well, you probably have the debate on your hands, we're all really pretty good at that. But it's also interesting to me that the figure that is crafted is a golden calf or a golden bull. The Apis bull was one of the primary deities in the Egyptian pantheon, and so, I don't know, is Aaron trying to provide a visual image that the people can latch onto to strengthen their faith in Jehovah? I'm just trying to think through possibilities and not condemn Aaron, because you're right, he plays a major role in what happens from now on.

Speaker 1:
[28:13] And bulls are associated with Jehovah as well. I mean, is this something that can make everyone happy again, right? And in the end, I don't.

Speaker 2:
[28:19] Joseph's patriarchal blessing, in fact, mentions Javier, the bull of heaven.

Speaker 3:
[28:25] Yeah. And so, as I'm thinking about all of this, the other part that I can't get past is that while Moses is on the mountain, God is actually revealing that Aaron's going to play a pivotal role in the tabernacle, in the religious functions of the Israelites. And I don't think that God is blind to this happening. When I read the chapters previous to this, sometimes we forget that those may be happening simultaneously. But I think that God is still saying, I know what Aaron's potential is. I know what I want Aaron to become. And now it's up to Aaron to either choose to become that or to choose to turn away from that. But my foreordination for Aaron is to be this great priest or high priest among the people. And so maybe even Aaron is experiencing some of that trepidation and saying, well, what's my role going to be? Well, I guess if Moses is gone, like I need to step up and I can get this role. But God has already put into motion what he needs Aaron to accomplish.

Speaker 2:
[29:30] Well, and Aaron seems to change. And that's a pivot point because the Lord says, destroy those that won't repent. And Aaron clearly repents.

Speaker 1:
[29:40] Well, and that also becomes… There are a couple of important things here. I think it's worth noting that God will tell Moses, go down, and then he starts to say to Moses, I'm going to destroy all of these people. Let's just start over with you, I'm going to destroy all of these people. And in essence, he ends up giving Moses a chance to choose how he will act, and he chooses to act in a very Christ-like way. In fact, in a way that I think is a symbol or a type of Christ, because Moses becomes an intercessor. He pleads, he pleads that they will spare Israel. He's got all sorts of ideas. Oh, people are going to think you can't really take care of your people or whatever else, but he is pleading on behalf of Israel. And then Moses comes down, and he sees what they're doing. He's like, man, I want to get these guys. But this becomes a pivotal thing, because this is when he says, okay, we need people who will really show that they're on God's side, and we need to remove those who are bringing about this idolatry. And it is his own tribe, and that probably has something to do with it, but it is still his own tribe, Levi, who stands by him. And this is why the Levites become the bearers of the priesthood. So instead of what you were talking about before, where everyone holds the Melchizedek Priesthood, and presumably, if all Israel had come into the presence of God, then all Israel would become priests and priestesses. That seems to be the plan, right? And instead, they are going to get the lower law with a very restricted priesthood, and it is going to be the Levites, because they have asked for an intermediary. So the Levites will be an intermediary. They have asked to be distant from God, so they become distant from God. They don't want to have all of the wonderful things that are part of helping you become enough like God that you come into God's presence. So they get a lower law that is a schoolmaster, right? In the end, they get exactly what they asked for.

Speaker 3:
[31:42] And that phrase that you're looking at in verse 26, and then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, who is on the Lord's side? And I can't help but think of that great hymn, who's on the Lord's side who.

Speaker 1:
[31:53] It's quoting this, right?

Speaker 3:
[31:54] Exactly. And so, it's almost this clarion call to all of us. I am grateful to be a part of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, where everyone who is willing and worthy is able to enter into those covenants, to become kings and queens, priests and priestesses, to be part of that covenant. And so, we've come full circle with the restoration. But that's a question we have to ask ourselves. Who is on the Lord's side? Am I on the Lord's side in what we're doing?

Speaker 1:
[32:25] And with this story, then, and this is one of the things that we've been hoping to help our audience the entire year, we've been hoping to help them with this, to see that these are real stories, they're literal, but they happen in a way that symbolically teaches us and we should be able to apply it to our lives. And there are a number of things that, at this point, I'm asking myself and I hope everyone listening is asking themselves. One, when God wants to bring me closer, do I sometimes fear or not want to do all the things I have to do to come closer to him, do I distance myself? Two, do I sometimes find that when God is not answering me as quickly as I thought he would or in the way I thought he would or I'm just confused and I don't know what is going on, do I turn to the world or slip into old habits or am I too influenced by the world in trying to seek answers or understand this? And three, when God is asking for someone to stand up for what is right, do I choose to be on the Lord's side or not? Those are at least three lessons that I feel like I am asking myself right now.

Speaker 2:
[33:39] One of the words that comes to mind when I read the part of the story where the Lord says he wants to destroy Israel and take Moses and make Moses into a great nation is the word integrity, to forego being in the limelight and do for others what Moses does, namely pleading for them, for blessings to be with them, for repentance to be with them, and refraining from exalting himself. Am I that kind of a person? Do I have that kind of integrity? And by the way, one cannot help but think of Abraham in the same way where he pleads for the lives of the wicked. What about if there's 50 righteous in the city? The Lord says, well, for the sake of 50, 40, 30. I mean, Abraham is pretty courageous when he bargains with the Lord like that, but it's his integrity that makes him do that. Here it's Moses' integrity, as you were saying. Am I willing to step out of the limelight and put the Lord in the limelight where he belongs? And there's a danger, I think, in our profession. We've all seen it. I think in some cases we've actually had to wrestle with it. We always have to wrestle with it. Is it the teacher or the teaching that's significant? And I am so grateful that we have the Book of Mormon that talks about priestcraft. I used to remind myself of that on a constant basis. This is the Lord's work. Let him take the credit for it. You're one of the players, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3:
[35:23] Well, and I love that with verse 30, because he's going to, so Moses is going to say to the people, you have sinned a great sin, and now I will go up unto the Lord. Peradventure, I shall make an atonement for your sin. And in this, and we don't usually talk about Moses this way, but Moses is a type of Christ. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[35:43] Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 3:
[35:44] And so in this very moment, he's saying, okay, I'm not only, it would be very easy for me to side with the Lord right here and say, yep, get rid of all of them. Well, Moses stops and says, I'll be it.

Speaker 2:
[35:55] You recall for us Moses chapter one, where God says to Moses, thou art in the similitude of mine only begotten son. And can't help but think of Elder Bruce R. McConkey decades and decades ago, talking about how there's some kind of a special likeness between the Lord Jesus Christ and Moses, whether it's physical appearance, whether it's completely his personality or whatever it is. But you're right. We know that from Moses chapter one, the introduction to the Old Testament.

Speaker 3:
[36:29] And so the fact that Moses is able to stand up and say, it's this, and maybe that's a great place for us as we talk more or wrap up this discussion, is that what ultimately overcomes the Golden Calf episode is that kind of mediator. And in our own lives, what's ultimately going to overcome that distancing that we have from God, it's Jesus Christ. And we cannot bridge that gap on our own. But if we're willing and able to accept the correction, because Moses is going to correct them, and willing to say, okay, we are going to change our ways, that is a great symbol of our own discipleship to accept Jesus Christ and overcome the tendencies within ourselves.

Speaker 2:
[37:23] So what are we left with? Maybe section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants summarizes where we leave Israel at this point in our discussion. It's talking about the power of godliness that's inherent in the Melchizedek priesthood. Then verse 23, Now this, Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God. But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest, while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of his glory. Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the holy priesthood also, and the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel. But look at what they didn't have. And you have to go to the Joseph Smith translation of Exodus 34. Melchizedek Priesthood was taken away from Israel as a whole. The prophets still had it. Higher law was taken away, temple covenants and ordinances gone. And so for the next 1300 years, when we read the Old Testament, we're reading about a people, a civilization, that are operating under the lesser priesthood of Aaron. And that maybe accounts for some of the…why we don't read about certain things like the explicit name of Jesus Christ and those kinds of things, because they did, as you pointed out, live under this lesser law.

Speaker 3:
[39:11] And Andy, I'm so grateful you pointed out that scripture, because I also find it fascinating that in verse 24 of section 84, he said they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness.

Speaker 2:
[39:22] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[39:23] It doesn't say they shall never enter into my rest forever, but they're saying temporarily and in their time here, they're going to be prevented from entering into that rest.

Speaker 2:
[39:34] And that term is used in the New Testament two or three times, which helps us to appreciate that New Testament figures, New Testament characters, Paul the apostle, were well aware of what happened at Mount Sinai, and they too are trying to prevent the early church from falling into that same trap.

Speaker 1:
[39:57] And the Book of Mormon prophets use it as well, speaking about the provocation and the wilderness and entering into the rest of the Lord. Well, this is fun. We could explore this for a long time, but this has really helped me identify more with the Israelites than maybe as I would like to identify with them, but to understand more of what is going on and how I can learn some lessons from this.

Speaker 2:
[40:24] So thank you. Thank you. Amen to everything you said.

Speaker 1:
[40:27] As fun as that was, there's still more to plumb in this story. And even with the three segments on it, we won't be getting to the depths or the end of what we could get out of this story. But there's still more for us to learn. And Dr. Paul Hoskisson always has such fresh insights and a great way of looking at it. You're going to really enjoy this segment. So let's, let's talk with Dr. Hoskisson. Well, we're glad to have back with us. My friend, mentor, colleague, and all around good guy, Dr. Paul Hoskisson, former associate dean and professor of ancient scripture and all sorts of other great things at BYU. Thanks for being with us, Paul.

Speaker 4:
[41:03] It's good to be back here.

Speaker 1:
[41:05] And we are today going to talk about Exodus 32, which is in, was for them and is for us a troubling story. So where would you like to go with that?

Speaker 4:
[41:20] I think it's important to look at the text itself and see what is really going on. People, through the ages, centuries, have read it one way, and I think there are other ways to read it. And we are not tied by the previous interpretations of the chapter. We should look at it on our own. And I think it's been misread in a minor way, but it makes a big difference in how you're going to bring the teachings of this chapter into your own life.

Speaker 1:
[41:49] All right, well, let's do that.

Speaker 4:
[41:51] This happens during the Exodus. And the Israelites have just come out of Egypt. And you know a lot more about Egyptian than I do. And I can see why people read it as Aaron making a statue of a foreign deity, of a pagan deity. They've come out of Egypt. As I understand it, there's the Apis bull. I don't even know what it's called. A religion?

Speaker 1:
[42:19] It's a cult, you could call it. I mean, it's like in Egypt, there are all sorts of gods and sacred things you would worship. And it's one of those.

Speaker 4:
[42:29] Yes. The other one, of course, is Hathor. That's the female. So there are two, not real religions, but cults. One of them with a male cow and one with a female cow.

Speaker 1:
[42:42] And the Apis Bull is associated both with Ta and Osiris, initially with Ta. But anyway, so yeah, you've got a male god that is represented as a cow and a female god that is represented as a cow. They're not cows, but they're represented as cows.

Speaker 4:
[42:58] Right, right. We're going to talk about that aspect as far as concerns here in Exodus 32. And this is the background that they're coming out of in Egypt. Are these sacred cows? I'm told to that the Egyptians didn't like to eat with Greeks because the Greeks ate cows. And I don't know if that's true because I'm not an Egyptologist.

Speaker 1:
[43:22] And there may be some things from that much later. But we know they ate cows. We have lots and lots of pictures of them slaughtering cattle. In the afterlife, you're bringing cow forelegs and hind legs as offerings to the dead, to God. So, gods and men ate cows, which is tasty, by the way.

Speaker 4:
[43:42] I don't blame them. I would too, I think. Yes. The other thing is that the Hebrews have come out of a Northwest Semitic background, even though they've been in Egypt now for, by one episode, about 400 years. And they become acclimatized to Egypt in some ways. But in the Northwest Semitic area, that's Canaan and Phoenicia and Syria and what is now Syria and Jordan and Lebanon, they never pictured gods as animals. They did not have animal deities in the Semitic world. What they did have, though, was a god and its animal. So each god had a symbolic animal associated with that particular cult. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:37] Which I think is actually very, very similar to what's happening in Egypt.

Speaker 4:
[44:42] I don't doubt that, yes. In fact, in Egypt, you get some images of the female goddess striding on top of a lion, which was her symbolic animal. I don't know the way you get that in the Semitic world, but you get other pictures in the Semitic world. For instance, the Canaanite god Baal, which we'll talk about in a minute or two, his symbolic animal was the bull or the calf.

Speaker 1:
[45:09] Their depictions of him on that.

Speaker 4:
[45:11] Standing on the top of it. In other words, the animal was the pedestal upon which the god stood or walked or traveled through the territory. We have to distinguish between the symbol of the god and the god themselves. None of them in the Semitic world worshiped animals at all. But they did bring in the symbol of the god into their cult services. So we have to keep those things in mind. You get the reverence for cows and bulls in Egypt. You get the symbolic animal of cows. And this all comes together here in the desert when they're on the way to the land of promise. So, with that in mind, let us read here what's going on here in chapter 32. Moses has disappeared for a while. He's been leading the people. They're willing to follow him. He struggled to get them to follow him in the beginning. When they finally did, they're in. They're following him in and out of the desert. Yes, and he leaves them to go, basically, to go talk with God. But they miss him.

Speaker 1:
[46:26] Ironically, God had wanted everyone to go talk with him, and they've said, No, Moses, you go talk with them. We talked about that in some other episodes, but they say, you go talk with them. And so now he's up talking with God on their behalf because they've chosen not to. And they start to wonder why he's gone so long when he's up doing what they were supposed to be doing.

Speaker 4:
[46:55] Yes. And so what do you do when your prophets left? Well, you've got to get a substitute. You've got to do something to go on.

Speaker 1:
[47:05] So they approach Aaron and say, Well, and maybe I can add this. The thing they were afraid of was that they wouldn't survive the presence of God. And now Moses is up there. And I suspect that when they say, We wish not, or we don't know what happened to him, that part of that is, well, did he survive or is he gone? And now we're left with Adam and we have to figure out our own way forward.

Speaker 4:
[47:30] Yes. And so what they want to do is to try and capture some segments of what they do know about deities and how things work in those days. So they convince Aaron to make a statue, basically, an image. And so let's begin in Exodus 32, in verse 2. And Aaron said unto them, break off the gold earrings, which are in the ears of your wives and of your sons and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. They're not going to spare anything. They're going to make the best image they can. This is going to be gold. By the way, Egypt was a place that was fairly rife in gold but lacked in silver, as I understand it. So gold here is, was fairly, was more common in Egypt than silver.

Speaker 1:
[48:20] Still a very precious metal. But yes, actually there's more gold than there is wood as well. Other than palm tree wood, but then hardwood.

Speaker 4:
[48:29] Yes. And all the people break off the golden earrings, which were in their ears and brought them into Aaron. And he received them at their hand and fashioned it with a graving tool. After he had made it a molten calf and they said, These be thy Elohim, O Israel, which brought the up out of the land of Egypt. You notice here I'm substituting what the Hebrew text says.

Speaker 1:
[48:54] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[48:55] For the names of deity here. The people say, make us an image of Elohim.

Speaker 1:
[49:00] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[49:01] Which brings up the question of why are they calling this image Elohim? I think it's important to note that we draw our language about deity from the modern prophets and revelators and seers. We don't rely on how they did it in the old days. There's a fundamental difference in the way they used Elohim in the Hebrew Bible than the way that we use it today. We use Elohim, of course, to refer to God the Father, and that's entirely appropriate, and I am glad we do that, that we can distinguish between God the Father and the Son. We use Jehovah exclusively to refer to the Son, and I like that. I wholeheartedly am grateful for the prophets for making that distinction in our day. But in the Hebrew Bible, the word Elohim is used generically, almost everywhere, and it's used not just by the Israelites, it's used by the peoples around the Israelites, especially in the Late Bronze Age, which is about the time of Moses probably, to designate deity in general and also specific deities. In fact, there are places in the Old Testament, and this is one place where the term Elohim is being used generically for almost any god. In fact, in one place in the Scriptures, in 1 Kings 11, 33, it's used to describe a female deity, a single female deity. It's used to describe the gods of the Canaanites and of the Ammonites and of the Phoenicians. So if you'll keep that in mind, that the terms are used differently here in the Old Testament and the way to use them today, the correct way today, it makes more sense in this passage here. In verse 4, And he received them at their hands and fastened them in a graven tool, after he had made it a golden molten calf. And they said, These be thy Elohim, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. Now, after it's made it and made and set up, Aaron then saw it and he says, He built an altar before it, and Aaron made proclamation and said, Tomorrow is a feast to Jehovah. So already we have the shift from Elohim to Jehovah.

Speaker 1:
[51:31] And maybe we can just highlight for our audience, you see where it says Jehovah in verse 5, it's Lord, all caps, small caps. That's King James translator's clue that it says Jehovah. So when you see that, you can know it's Jehovah. And typically, if you see the word God, most of the time it's going to be Elohim. And as you said, they're not distinguishing father and son there. They're just saying deity, as it were.

Speaker 4:
[51:57] Yes. Yes. There are places where it's a little more complicated than that, but we don't need to get to that today.

Speaker 1:
[52:02] That's why I say typically. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[52:05] They're going to make a feast now to Jehovah in front of this golden calf that they call Elohim. And they rose up early in the morning and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings. And then people sat down to eat and to drink and rose up to play. Now, if you've seen Cecil B. DeMille's production of The Ten Commandments, in fact, in his earlier one, he produced a choir film in the 1920s on it. It was even more risque than the one that we're all here recognized. It rose up to play. The word that is used there in the Hebrew text means, is the word that is used when Abimelech looks down on Isaac and Rebecca, and it says they were sporting.

Speaker 1:
[52:54] Yeah. It's actually Isaac's name.

Speaker 4:
[52:58] Isaac names, and it also means to laugh. It means to make fun of. So that's the word that is used when it says that Ishmael was mocking them. It's that same word.

Speaker 1:
[53:09] So Isaac's name is Yitzhak.

Speaker 4:
[53:11] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[53:12] And here it's Yitzhak. This is what you've got here. So anyway, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:17] So they rose up to play. And the rabbis have interpreted that to mean that they were doing something more than just playing cards.

Speaker 1:
[53:25] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:25] Or playing checkers or something.

Speaker 1:
[53:27] Yeah. They went with the sporting.

Speaker 4:
[53:29] They went more with the sporting attitude.

Speaker 1:
[53:31] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:32] Like Isaac and Rebecca, which, of course, probably didn't do, although we don't know. But anyway, and then verse 7, And the Lord said unto Moses, Get thee down for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. The question then becomes, why were they corrupted? And we need to talk about that. I think it's important. Verse 8, And they turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made them a molten calf, and have worshiped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said, These be thy God, these be thy Elohim, O Israel, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

Speaker 1:
[54:17] So that's the direct quote of what it said that they said after Aaron had made it in verse 4.

Speaker 4:
[54:25] Yes. Now the issue here is, well, we'll get more into this in more details when we get there. Verse 9, The Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people. They're already going astray with Moses being absent. Yes. But I think it's more to realize in what way they went astray.

Speaker 1:
[54:47] Yes, I agree.

Speaker 4:
[54:48] We're getting to that. Verse 10. Now, therefore, let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, that I may consume them, and I will make of thee a great nation. Well, Moses doesn't want anything to do with that. He says, wait a minute, don't do that. Let's try again. Kind of like in the Allegory of the Olive Tree in Jacob 5. No, don't cut the whole thing down here. Let's try again. See if we can make this work, Lord.

Speaker 1:
[55:17] It's not unlike Abraham pleading for Sodom and Gomorrah, right? We have, in my opinion, and I'm not the first one to come up with this idea, but you have Moses or Abraham or those servants in Jacob 5. They stand as a symbol or a type of Christ who pleads for us on our behalf, who's our advocate, right?

Speaker 4:
[55:36] Yes. Moses is pleading as an advocate for the people here, to the Lord. If you take it literally, as many people do, especially in the Muslim world, images are not allowed. You can photograph, maybe you're okay, but you notice there are no images in any of the mosques that you go into. You can arrive at that conclusion if you take it very strictly and literally what's going on here in Exodus 32. They should not have made a calf.

Speaker 1:
[56:15] And driving somewhat from the Ten Commandments, right? No grave and image.

Speaker 4:
[56:20] Yes. But I think we need to look also at other passages in the Scriptures to see what really was the sin that was going on in this case. And if you look at Leviticus 26.1 in your Bible, it gives more detail. If you have questions about what's going on in one episode, look for something that is similar to it and read it and put the two together and see what you can come up with. So if we go to Leviticus, it gives more detail about what you should do and what you shouldn't do about images. Leviticus 26.1, if I remember right, He shall make you no idols nor graven images. Well, Aaron just did that, right? But we forget the second half of the verse. And if you read very carefully in Exodus 32, it also says the same thing, but they're not tied as closely together as they are here in this verse. Neither shall you set up any image or of stone in your land to bow down unto it, for I am the Lord your God. The issue here is not making an image. The issue is, what do you do with that image? And that's what the Lord's getting after them for there in Exodus 32. It specifically says they bowed down, they worshiped, etc., they sacrificed. It's not the image that is wrong, it's the attitude of the people towards the image that is wrong. In our modern-day parlance, I don't know of any chapel anywhere in the world where we have an image in the chapel itself. There are images in the buildings, but not in the chapel. Now there are a few exceptions to that. There are some chapels around that have been grandfathered into being able to hang on to images that were put into the chapel before the general word word out.

Speaker 1:
[58:23] Yeah, like stained glass windows and some I know. Actually, the chapel I grew up in, which is a fairly old one in Utah, there was a painting of the Savior in there that was in that chapel that stayed in. I don't know if it's still there now, but you're right. There are a few that are grandfathered, but that's not how we do it now.

Speaker 4:
[58:41] No, in fact, in the chapel, when I was a teenager, they had a picture of the Savior up in front of the chapel, behind on the wall, behind the podium. And while I was a teenager, they took it down and banished it from the chapel because of what's going on here, I think, within Exodus 32.

Speaker 1:
[59:05] That's happened in Christianity from time to time as well.

Speaker 4:
[59:08] Yes. During the Protestant Reformation, they cleaned out a lot of images from some of the churches. Yes. And in a way, I'm a little sad because some of them were just absolutely stunning images. But the point here is, the sin that Aaron committed was to use or allow this image to be used in the worship service. Right. Which may explain why the punishment for Aaron was not as bad as the other people who were actually doing the worshiping there in front of the calf. Some of those were struck down. So you get some destruction here of people who were actually worshiping the calf there, but not Aaron. Because his misjudgment was to allow them to put it into the worship, but to perform a worship service with the calf. Right. And we don't allow any of that today. I even, it's been a long time since I've read the handbook, but the church, and they've changed it from years. By the way, it's wonderful that everyone can look it up, the handbook of the church.

Speaker 1:
[60:16] And it's online and easy.

Speaker 4:
[60:18] It's online, you can read the whole thing from beginning to end. And it's been a long time since I read it. That we don't even use images when we're giving a sermon in the chapel. You don't use symbols either. All of this comes from the teaching here in Exodus 32. Raven images are fine. Images, photographs, statues are fine. They're good in the release side of room. They're good in the foyer. They're good in the hallways. But in the chapel, we don't have images.

Speaker 1:
[60:50] In the chapel, let's be specific, where we have worship services, including ordinance, right?

Speaker 4:
[60:54] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[60:55] That's right.

Speaker 4:
[60:55] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[60:58] And there's, well, I don't know if you're done with that. I'll move on to something else when you're done. But I think that, well, I think you have a really important point. The problem here is what they did with the image. And even if they were trying to picture, so in the end, you'll have the, the Ark of the Covenant will be thought of as the place where God can come and sit. It's his throne, where he can come and sit when he visits Earth.

Speaker 4:
[61:26] And it has two images on it.

Speaker 1:
[61:28] Yeah, it does. The cherubim, right? The cherubim, which are actually supposed to be protecting his presence and us from his presence. If he were there sitting on the, on the Ark of the Covenant, right?

Speaker 4:
[61:38] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[61:39] So they're almost like a veil. Those images in the end, those cherubim are almost serve the same function as a veil does, which is interesting because there are cherubim on the veil as well. We'll get into that when we get into the construction of the temple, but it is possible that Aaron is thinking of something like that. His calf is where, as you were alluding to earlier, God might stand or sit if he were to come to earth at this point. So it's not God himself, but it's a place for God to come if he were going to come. It's very possible that's what it is. But in the end, they worship before it, and that's what they're not supposed to do.

Speaker 4:
[62:16] Yes. We ought to carry that image though, of the calf on into the rest of the Old Testament. The calf was Jehovah's image, and there are plenty of places in the Old Testament that mentioned that. We don't see them often in the King James translations because they don't literally translate what's going on in the Hebrew text. At one point, it was abandoned as the image of the symbolic animal of the Savior. Probably when there is that contest on Mount Carmel between the priests of Baal and Jehovah, who really controls the weather? The Canaanite god Baal was the weather god. He's pictured as standing with a lightning bolt in his hand, and he controls the weather. Does Jehovah control the weather? Well, actually, yes, he does. By the way, again, the Canaanite god Baal, his symbolic animal was also the bull. When the contest happens there on Mount Carmel, and Jehovah, of course, proves himself to be the god, then you don't need to have any more imagery that's related to the Canaanite god Baal. We should insert here too, by the way, that the word Baal is the West Semitic word for Lord or Master or even husband. In fact, it's the modern Israeli word for husband, Baal.

Speaker 1:
[63:47] Yeah, and you actually find it in, and we'll get there when we get to Hosea, but God talks about his being called husband. Don't call me husband, Baal or Baal instead of Ishi, my man. But anyway, so even God uses it as a phrase for husband at one point.

Speaker 4:
[64:08] But the symbol of Jehovah switches somewhere in the Old Testament, like I say, maybe around the time of the contest at Carmel. To the lamb, as Latter-day Saints, we recognize that as the symbol of Jehovah.

Speaker 1:
[64:22] And in some ways, that imagery starts, I mean, in some ways it starts even with Adam and sacrifices, but in some ways it starts with the Passover.

Speaker 4:
[64:32] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[64:33] So which has just barely happened in this episode.

Speaker 4:
[64:37] It's introduced, the idea of the lamb has been introduced there with the Passover. And probably earlier than that, they're using, they're sacrificing lamb. The ram and the thicket is an important indication too. By the time you get to the New Testament, everyone has forgotten that the calf or the bull was Jehovah's symbol. It's all about the lamb then.

Speaker 1:
[64:59] I agree.

Speaker 4:
[65:00] And we would not bring in a lamb into our service in our LDS chapels, a statue of one even, and set it by the sacrament table, remind us that this is about the lamb of God, the sacrament. And that's what Exodus 32 teaches us. Be careful about the images you're using and how you use them.

Speaker 1:
[65:23] Very good. If it's all right, I'd like to look at the specific language of what it says they say. I mean, you attempt to say it's Aaron, but it's in verse four, because Aaron is making it, but then they say, and it's pretty amorphous who the they is, right? But what they say, as you read, these be thy gods, these be thy Elohim, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. Now, we need to do a little grammar to really understand this. As you've said, Elohim, like, I mean, the smallest version of the word for deity or god in Hebrew is el. And the most simple plural of that is elim. And we get that. That appears in the Bible, and it's used to talk about gods and false gods and so on. But as you've said, we often get Elohim, which is kind of an expanded, a bigger version, and we often use that when we talk about the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible, the phrase we'll use is honorific plural, meaning this is referring to God or Jehovah or this deity that's interacting with the Israelites. And we know it's Jehovah representing God, but in any case, representing the father, the son representing the father on his behalf. But the phrase we'll usually say is it's an honorific plural, meaning it's made plural in this kind of big expanded way to represent that God is so big and so important, we can't just use the word God, almost like the royal we in English kingship, right? But the interesting thing is that when it's being used that way, you get Elohim and it takes, which is plural technically, but it takes a singular verb.

Speaker 4:
[67:12] Yes. There are places where the King James translators recognize that it was referring to the God of Israel, and therefore, they used a singular verb. Other places where they knew it was not the Israelite deity they were talking about, they used a plural verb. So the Hebrew text waffles between the singular and the plural verb in Hebrew depending on who they think the referent is.

Speaker 1:
[67:39] Exactly right. So that's not just the King James translators. It's that way in Hebrew, right? Most of the time, Elohim takes a singular verb. In this case, it's got a plural verb. Which is interesting because it's almost as if they're trying to split some hairs here. And they're saying, because they know it's Jehovah that brought them out of Egypt. So I mean, to some degree, the question is, is this actually how it was said at the time? Or is this how later writers, if they put in the plural verb? But assuming, if it was, this is what they said at the time. Then we know it was Jehovah who brought us out of Egypt. But we're using a plural verb with this noun, gods, that usually takes a singular verb. And it's almost as if you're trying to use the name that would be okay for those who are going to just think of Jehovah or Elohim. But you're going to use a verb that's okay for those who, because we know that there's idolatry among the Israelites as they come out of Egypt. We know that's a problem. We get Joshua talking about that and so on. But it's almost as if they're playing both sides of the fence here, is what I feel like. And if you want it to be plural gods, we've got a plural verb. If you want it to be Jehovah, well, we've said Elohim. We can make everyone happy here. And then some will worship the right way, and some will worship the wrong way. And we have this big group that is coming, and worshiping inappropriately, that God is clearly not happy with. But I don't know who the they is that is saying this, but I find this language to be, I don't know, it's almost like a modern day politician. They're just trying to say things in a way that will make everybody happy. And I want to just preview that this is the exact language that when we get a golden calf or a calf being set up by Jeroboam as he starts to move the Israelites to idolatry after the death of Solomon, he's going to use this exact same phrase to describe the calves that he sets up. And he doesn't seem to think it's a problem, which is shocking to me because clearly God thought it was a problem here. And I assume they have that tradition still in Jeroboam's day, but he seems to be doing it. Anyway, in these cases where we're sliding towards the wrong, often you get this language that's just a little funny. And I find I do that myself. If I'm sliding to the wrong, I'm usually trying to find a way to say, well, see, I'm doing it right, but it's also okay what I'm doing here. I find some little shade, some little nuance, some way of trying to make the thing that deep inside I know is wrong. I'm trying to find some way to assuage my conscience and let me participate in my favorite sin or however we want to say that. And so that's one thing I would like to encourage our audiences because it's easy to read this story and say, what in the world is wrong with those people? To make a golden calf and to worship in front of it. How weird did it when they saw Jehovah's parting the Red Sea? How would they do that? But I'm telling you, we do it. We have all sorts of false idols in our lives, and we find lots of ways to try to feel good about it. And we think we're not doing anything wrong, when in reality we are worshipping. By virtue of our loves, our desires, our time, our attention, our resources, we end up worshipping. We sacrifice our resources or our time to our love to. We end up worshipping these other things, and we find ways to feel good about it. So I would encourage our audience to just stop and think for a minute. If you can identify one thing that you know somewhere in the back of your mind, I know that's wrong, but I've been trying to feel pretty good about it, and recast it and say, okay, that's like this whole golden calf thing, and if I were to look at it from a few years later, I'd think, how stupid is that? Maybe we can identify it as stupid now and change. That's my encouragement to our audience.

Speaker 4:
[71:50] Yes, sometimes, as President Uchtdorf has mentioned in the past, when you're trying to get from point A to point B in an airplane, one little degree off on the course you're taking leads to a serious consequence later on, and just getting off by one degree in the presence of these images can lead to serious consequences later. I don't want to get into too much grammar, but there is a plural form for Elohim, which occurs mostly in the Book of Job, in the Old Testament, Eloah. And it's probably an older form of the word for L, with a third consonant on the end that doesn't show up anymore. So Elohim, by the way, is used as a, the plural in Hebrew is used as a term for an abstract. So that's the way it's used here sometimes also as an abstract. It's a divine thing.

Speaker 1:
[72:55] Beyond our conceptual abilities.

Speaker 4:
[72:57] Yes. It's something that divinity does. Yes. Good.

Speaker 1:
[73:04] And maybe I'll just circle back real quickly to your President Uchtdorf point because that being off by one degree is a problem, right? But then his point elsewhere is, that's why you're always having to make course corrections. You're always going to be off a little, and you make course corrections. So if we can identify that one degree we're off right now by feeling good about a sin we know we shouldn't feel good about and make that course correction, we're going to be okay. Everyone is always going to be off in their journey, you just have to make the course correct.

Speaker 4:
[73:33] And we have lots of examples in the scriptures of those course corrections. Some of us relish them and some of us fear them, but they have to be made if you're going to stay on course. That's why we need living profits and revelators today to keep us on course. We have a tendency to get off course.

Speaker 1:
[73:54] We all do. Well, thank you very much.

Speaker 4:
[73:57] It's good to be with you again, Kerry. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[74:00] Oh, there's always so much to talk about. This is just good, clean fun, isn't it? Good clean fun. And before we wrap up, I just want to tell my audience, I tell all of you, thank you for being with us. This is just so powerful, the stories that were, and so foundational, the stories we're investigating together. And I love doing it with you. I do have the best audience in the world. And I love that you're part of the podcast family. I want to especially thank people who have supported us in so many ways. The Parke family, I can't, we wouldn't have a 501C3 without them. And they're generous in so many ways. The Franzen family, there are so many people that support us, but those are just a couple that I wanted to mention. Jennifer Beardall, I'll mention her as well. And we'll mention more in future episodes. But thank you for supporting us. Thank you for supporting us through Patreon. And for those of you who aren't able to support us in that way, please support us in whatever way you can, whether that be just sharing this with someone online or in person or just praying for us. Whatever way you can support us, we'd love your prayers and that you'll also pray for whoever is listening, that they can be edified. As we work on this together in whatever way we can, and prayers are maybe the most important way, but every other way you can, we appreciate your support and we'd love for you to get to be actively part of our podcast family. Let's just keep doing this together. I always feel more light when I do this with you. Thank you. And I testify of the light of Christ. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.