transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:02] A quick note before we get into the episode, Oversharing is a podcast for entertainment purposes only. It is not a medical podcast, and does not constitute medical or psychological advice. Always seek the advice of your physician or mental health professional. Hello, and welcome back to Oversharing. I'm Jordana Abraham.

Speaker 2:
[00:19] And I am Dr. Naomi Bernstein.

Speaker 1:
[00:21] How's it going? How was your week? I missed you.

Speaker 2:
[00:26] The week was good, coming off of a fun-filled sports weekend. I don't want this to be too parenting heavy, because I know there are lots of listeners that aren't parents. But I will say, I'm having a bit of an existential, I don't know if I would call it a crisis, but I feel like I'm waist-deep in youth sports, which I'm sure some of our listeners, maybe your age, are just teetering towards soccer, or these little, but buckle up, because there's a whole business in youth sports, and they've dragged all these parents and all these kids into this booming youth sports business.

Speaker 1:
[01:11] Who's making money off of this? The leagues, the companies that are organizing it?

Speaker 2:
[01:16] Club. Club sports are making money.

Speaker 1:
[01:18] I mean, outside of school, this is like, yes.

Speaker 2:
[01:21] So, there's some of it that gets intense even in, like, recreational. Like, Brooks is still in recreational.

Speaker 1:
[01:28] What does recreational mean?

Speaker 2:
[01:29] That's like the town league. The, like, public league. Okay. So, like, you know, Roslyn Little League or whatever. You know, like, that's like the rec league. Then, somebody decided that if you come in and you're like, oh, these are the best kids, they're select. These kids are selected because they're really, really good at the sport. That's like the club sports. And they pick, and it just is such like an ego trap because it makes the parents feel like, oh, my gosh, my kid is special.

Speaker 1:
[02:04] Right. I've got to put them in club sports.

Speaker 2:
[02:07] I have to encourage this talent that they have, which I think in the beginning, it was kind of like these.

Speaker 1:
[02:14] No one ever thought that about me. I got cut from the JV volleyball team. I don't know. But if you were growing up now, it's like a now thing.

Speaker 2:
[02:23] No, it happened then. But then I think it was when I was growing up and when you were growing up, it was more like truly, I think the most talented kids, kind of most athletic talented kids were selected. Then they realized, oh, my gosh, we select these kids. They pay $3,000. We can form a team. And now they have, instead of having one select team, they have seven. And they just rank them from the best, from number one to number seven. But every kid, if you want to pay $3,000, Right, can get in. Can get in. So it kind of means nothing. And then there's this, it's like a feeling of they'll work their way up. And youth sports, this is why I have a love-hate relationship with youth sports, because there's a lot to learn. There's determination on hard work.

Speaker 1:
[03:16] Off screen.

Speaker 2:
[03:16] Yes, off screen.

Speaker 1:
[03:18] Screen activity, yes.

Speaker 2:
[03:19] That's why, I mean, it's a lot of time. It's a lot of time off screen. It's social, it's communication, it's teamwork. It's learning how to be frustrated, learning how to do hard things, learning how to lose, learning how to win. There's great things about it. That's why I love it. And there's also this little ego piece that I think I step back and recognize that is almost like an unhealthy, like a guilty pleasure of, I have a thrill when my kid does well, right? Like that just feels a little, is that bad? It's not bad, it's not inherently bad, but I think it's kind of like, I'm putting my stuff onto them. I'm like living a little vicariously through them. And when I step back and I do this, like, mindful thing when I'm in these enormous gyms with all of these hundreds, thousands maybe even sometimes of parents, everyone's so caught up in this intensity of how well their child is performing at bouncing this ball around a room, which is, for most of them, a pretty useless skill if you really step back. They're not like creating rocket ships or curing cancer, and most of them are not going to be in the NBA. Or, you know, so I just part of me feels like that environment pulls me out of my zen. It like pulls me out of my not seeking, not like, you know, this idea that the way that a 10 year old or a 12 year old or an eight year old performs is going to affect my mood, which it does for all these parents.

Speaker 1:
[05:09] Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[05:10] Like they get mad and it's not fair. And then the conversation after the game, my child should have gotten more playing time and they're not coaching it right. They're not calling the right plays. And it's just this, and that's the part that feels achy. And then there's the other piece, which I think I've talked about on here before, which we've pulled back from is you travel out of state with a bunch of 11-year-olds play volleyball in a different state against different teams when they're not even winning the games that they're playing at home.

Speaker 1:
[05:45] And it just feels like a Oh, I thought they only get to go to that if they like get to a certain level.

Speaker 2:
[05:50] No, they decide before this.

Speaker 1:
[05:51] That's annoying and expensive.

Speaker 2:
[05:53] Yes. Annoying, expensive. And it's like feeding this kind of delusion. Like it used to be, like you're saying, the best teams were so good, they were beating everyone in their area, and they needed to travel out of state to compete at a higher level.

Speaker 1:
[06:08] Like I remember when you got to like state in volleyball, but that was like through our high school.

Speaker 2:
[06:13] Yes. Sports. That was different. That was public school. We didn't have to pay for that. I don't even know if we had to pay for the hotel. I don't remember. This is a whole different thing. And it's just this making these 11-year-olds feel like they're LeBron James on the airplane with their jumpsuits on or whatever, like traveling to play. It's just delusional. So we stepped back from that. Then there's the whole like, who doesn't get to play? And now I have to talk to her about why she didn't get playing time and how we, and there's good lessons in there, but I just feel like sometimes I love it and I do love it. Like I love watching my kids play. I love watching them do well. I'm a sports person, so I get really wrapped up in it, but there's something that feels almost like this addictive, like intensity around something that like, I shouldn't be so intense.

Speaker 1:
[07:10] Yeah. I think if you could remove yourself from it, it's probably like great on their end. I mean, the finances thing, I guess it is what it is. But it does, I mean, from everything I learned about like teen and preteen culture, is that like kids with the most free time wind up like getting into trouble. So maybe you could also look at like, there's other stuff you don't even see. It's like the problems that you don't even have.

Speaker 2:
[07:35] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[07:36] That it's solving. It's probably another bonus. Like kids with too much free time, kids who are super bored, like they might get into like drugs or a bad, you know, like a video games or any of that other shit. So like, obviously, there's like the cost of going, but there's the other hidden costs of the things that they're not getting.

Speaker 2:
[07:55] Yes. And that's where how it I think started and blew up was that it was this really great, healthy social thing for kids to do. And it's just like grown into a beast that like a money. And then, you go to these tournaments that I'm going to the tournament. It's a two day tournament on the weekend. And my child's playing and I have to pay $20 a day to go watch my own child play.

Speaker 1:
[08:25] You have to pay?

Speaker 2:
[08:26] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[08:26] To watch?

Speaker 2:
[08:27] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[08:28] Now it seems like an MLM or something like that's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[08:31] Crazy. And if I want to bring my other two kids, I have to pay for them, too. So now I'm paying $45 a day to go sit in a gym and watch my own kid play.

Speaker 1:
[08:44] That rule seems predatory.

Speaker 2:
[08:45] Well, it's these clubs, that's how they make money. They sell the gyms, they sell food.

Speaker 1:
[08:52] Yeah, I think the food should be the money making thing.

Speaker 2:
[08:54] And admission. It's crazy, I'm telling you.

Speaker 1:
[08:56] I would push back on that part.

Speaker 2:
[08:59] This is just how it goes and everyone just goes along with it. When I step back and I watch the parents, and sometimes I am that parent, and sometimes I step back and I am the observer of myself in that moment. And I realize how crazy the whole thing is that screaming and yelling and stomping and then the kids absorb the parents. I don't do that. I don't scream and yell and stomp. I'm the one. I have my taglines which is like, that's okay. Every time I'm like, that's okay. That's okay. That's my tagline. I'm very positive there. I'm never negative.

Speaker 1:
[09:35] I don't see you as like a deranged soccer mom who's like screaming at the coach. That would be, does not seem like your vibe.

Speaker 2:
[09:41] No, every time someone makes a mistake, I'm like, that's okay. And sometimes I feel like the eyes of some parents that are like, no. So, but anyway, it's a whole culture. If you're not there yet, I hope something changes around. It's just grown into something crazy. We need to bring it back a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[10:00] And I think if you have the attitude of like, this isn't that big of a deal or like, you know, it's all, that's okay. I think that they'll have that attitude too. I think the kids who probably get negatively affected by that are the ones whose parents are like really intensely demanding success.

Speaker 2:
[10:18] They're like, come on when they make a mistake. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[10:21] Yeah. Like one thing about our mom, I feel like she never, I never felt like she cared that much.

Speaker 2:
[10:27] Right. There was zero pressure.

Speaker 1:
[10:30] That has its own probably negative things. But I don't think it was ever like, I'm going to disappoint anyone by not winning.

Speaker 2:
[10:37] I think it was a beautiful thing. And even now I'm watching them play these sports. And when I was a kid, I played a lot of sports and there were like a couple of families where the parents came to every game, like a handful. Certain parents you knew were coming to every game. But it wasn't all the parents coming to every game. Now, if there's 12 kids on the team, there's 12 sets of parents, and every pitch the pitcher throws, there's like all these eyes on them watching every pitch. It's so much.

Speaker 1:
[11:09] They shouldn't even, maybe they should just not allow parents to watch it.

Speaker 2:
[11:12] I mean, they're mostly fine and nice. They're not doing anything crazy for the most part. But yeah, I think the kids would probably have a lot more fun. Some of them, if there wasn't, it's just a lot. Like I wouldn't be able to deal with that pressure. It's a lot of pressure. A lot of people watching you. When I was a kid, you played sports. It was like the team, the other team, and like four parents.

Speaker 1:
[11:35] A couple of parents, yeah. I remember being on that volleyball team before I got cut, and it was really fun. We lost every single game, but we had a good time.

Speaker 2:
[11:43] But you had so much fun, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:45] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[11:45] And there were probably very few parents that were coming out to watch you lose every game.

Speaker 1:
[11:50] Totally. Well, our grandma came one time, and she like, this was embarrassing. After the game, she went up to the coach. She's like, what are you doing? They're not good. Get it together. She yelled at the coach. She didn't yell at us. She's like, these girls are losing every game.

Speaker 2:
[12:07] What are you doing here?

Speaker 1:
[12:08] I was mortified.

Speaker 2:
[12:09] Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, we don't have that. But sometimes it just feels like there's a lot of seeking, a lot of ego in, I want my kid. Oh my God, this guy on the sidelines, he just kept yapping about how his kid wasn't getting enough time and where his kid should be going, and what his kid was doing. And I'm like, I get it if that's what you're thinking.

Speaker 1:
[12:35] You should just hand him your card.

Speaker 2:
[12:41] It's just intense. But when your kid does something great, I'm also the lunatic that's so excited. So I'm in it and I'm torn. But so that's my weekend.

Speaker 1:
[12:57] Sounds like you need a good intention for your.

Speaker 2:
[13:00] Yeah, I do. I do. I need to stay just grounded and watching and making it more about the lessons that they're learning through sports versus. I think all these parents have a little bit of a delusional thing that their kid is going to be the next special thing.

Speaker 1:
[13:23] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[13:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:23] That's the dream is like, you know what I mean? Like you think you're special. And then I think you have kids and then you're like, all right, my time, like I wasn't that special. That ship is sailed. Let's try. Let's try someone else.

Speaker 2:
[13:34] Yes. That's what makes it, I think, feel a little toxic. But I think just again, being aware of it and relaxing. And I, you know, personally, I do a good job of making it really positive. And I really do on the way home. I just say, I love watching you play, you know, like that was really fun. And it was really fun. Well, that's it.

Speaker 1:
[13:55] Good luck. Thanks.

Speaker 2:
[13:57] I appreciate it.

Speaker 1:
[13:57] The rest of the season.

Speaker 2:
[13:59] Yeah, the rest of the next 10 years of my life, probably, but.

Speaker 1:
[14:03] $20 to watch. Wow. I have to say something like, honestly, like, how much do you really, I mean, I guess you watch them play, but they better not be on the bench if I'm paying $20.

Speaker 2:
[14:13] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[14:14] That kind of helps them.

Speaker 2:
[14:14] And then you know what else they do? Just, sorry, and then we'll finish this up. They make them ref the game.

Speaker 1:
[14:21] The parents?

Speaker 2:
[14:22] No, the kids. So you pay to go in, and then they're playing, but they're not just playing, then they're reffing, so I have to sit there while they're reffing, and while they're off.

Speaker 1:
[14:34] They've got to invest in this company. Sounds like they're killing it.

Speaker 2:
[14:37] Yeah, they're using the kids to pay their staffing, and then the parents of the kids have to pay to walk in. Genius. Why didn't I think of that?

Speaker 1:
[14:46] Can't wait for the Netflix documentary, actually, as I am, and stuff. This is gonna be great. Let's get into our emails. If you have a voicemail this episode, if you have a voicemail, you can leave us one at 646-363-6294. You can subscribe. You get two bonus episodes a month, ad free, and a day early, all the episodes. Or you can join one of Dr. Naomi's groups. Maybe you should start one for the parents, the athletes, to get it all out.

Speaker 2:
[15:10] If you have a child in youth sports and it is driving you crazy, no, we don't really talk about that. But yeah, naomibernstein.com. Come find us. Really great community. Would love to have you. The Oversharing community is awesome. Makes up a good part of our community there in the groups. So come find us, naomibernstein.com.

Speaker 1:
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But I do like the personal experience that Instacart has because I can have my shoppers show me things and I can accept or reject them or pick my favorite replacements. It makes it feel like I'm doing the actual shopping, I don't have to leave my house, which is key when I have two newborns that I'm looking after and a dog that's usually going crazy. Truly, the convenience cannot be beat. With just a few taps, you can shop from your favorite stores and have quality groceries and household essentials carefully selected and ready for pickup or delivered to your door in as fast as 30 minutes. Instacart helps take care of delivering the things you need with the quality you deserve so that you're free to take care of life. Download the Instacart app now and get groceries just how you like. Let's get into it. Our first email is a Shed My Shame. Thank you for writing in for being vulnerable. And again, if you want to submit yours Oversharing at betches.com or you can leave us a voicemail. I'll read it. Dear Dr. Naomi and Jordana, love your pod so much. Your perspective and advice has gotten me through some hard times and I greatly appreciate it. I'm writing in as I'm mid shame spiral about a huge overreaction I had in my relationship that I'm worried may have ruined it. And I want both your advice and perspective as I'm sure post fight anxiety is something a lot of the listeners can relate to. Here's some background. I will do my best to keep it brief. I, 30 female, have been on and off again with this guy 33 male for the last year. Here's the timeline breakdown. We met on hinge and dated April to June 2025. We met each other's friends, were together three to four times a week off the bat, and had a really intense immediate connection. Late June, I got to a point where I felt ready for committed relationship. When I brought it up, he basically went back to me and told saying, sorry, I'm not ready. His rationale for not being ready was that he had an intense last year. He had gotten out of a three-year relationship in July 2024, moved out of their apartment and across the country to our new city, and his three-year-old dog passed away shortly after. So when he told me that, we broke up and went our separate ways. He came back to me September 2025 saying how much he missed me, and he was just not ready for a commitment at that time, but wanted to try dating exclusively again because he thought our connection was special. I agreed to give it another try because I felt attached. We dated for a month and again, it started to feel more serious and he ended up pulling away and ghosting me completely. He ended up coming back again around New Year's, profusely apologizing and saying he felt overwhelmed at the time with how fast we were going and that he now felt ready to start dating. We dated for about six weeks before basically the whole thing happened again. Once we started getting close, he texted me breaking up because he said he was feeling too much pressure. This was mid February. Fast forward to mid March and he came back. This time telling me he loved me and he got very emotional saying he's so sorry for the past and how he officially is ready for a commitment. Ringing the alarm. This time was the first that actually felt different. He kept telling me how in love with me he was and he actually had started going to therapy and began SSRIs to handle his anxiety. So the fact that he was taking real action to make changes along with his words that he wanted to be all in with me, it made me feel okay trying again. So over the last three to four weeks, it was going really well. But two days ago, me and some new friends I met at Run Club were out day drinking, and we started talking about relationships. I told them how I've been on and off with my ex and we are figuring it out. They asked for a picture. And when I pulled him up, one of the girls said, oh my God, I went on a date with him in January. Turns out in January this year, a few days after he came back to me saying he wanted to try dating me again, and we had sex that night, he went on a date with another girl. I remembered that night because I had texted him asking if he wanted to meet me out, and he said he was tired. So I caught him in a lie. I was pretty drunk at this point and was seeing absolute red. There's too many screenshots to even send, but I basically texted him three screenshots worth of text explaining to him what I figured out, followed by fuck you, you're a piece of shit, we're done. I'm going to block you soon. Your parents should be disappointed in how they raised you to treat women like this. Followed by another three screenshots of, I'm sorry for calling you names and how I've handled speaking to you tonight, but I'm so hurt and I don't know how I can trust you after this. His only response during this was, I'm not texting about this. Let's talk in person if you want. I love you now, but in January, I don't think I fully realized it then. Also for context, his dad died when he was 22. So me saying how his dad would be disappointed in him, I know crossed a huge line. In the last year, I've never rage texted him, yelled at him, or even gotten mad, to be honest, just sad to him. So this kind of response is very unlike my normal pattern, and it was my first real fuck up while dating him. The next morning, I sent him a long apology text asking if he's open to talking and how sorry I was, and I own the immature reaction, even saying I will take action to figure out how I can prevent this kind of overreaction while drinking again. Since then, it's been crickets. I have a feeling he's looking to just pull away again, and I can't help but feel so much guilt and shame for how I reacted, especially the comment about his dad, which I know is an extremely sensitive topic. How do I move on from this and stop the shame narrative? I keep repeating to myself about how I ruin the potential of this relationship, and it's my fault, and I need to live with this. I'm not naive in that I'm very well aware of how unhealthy this dynamic has been over the last year and fits the anxious avoidant trap to a T, so there's also a logical part of me that thinks this is probably a good thing to finally separate. But this time around just felt different in that he really was acting all in with me until this texting happened. And maybe we could have had something special if I hadn't gone psycho on text. Another part of me is also angry in that I've shown him so much grace and forgiveness over the last year and how he treated me. And this one time, I am the one to mess up, he isn't open to talking because of my immature reaction, and that's enough to call it quits. Would love your guy's take, thanks. Anxiously attached, Betch.

Speaker 2:
[22:56] I really feel for her because I'm not gonna, on the outside, it looks like, why did you keep coming back? This was crazy, but I could see he upped the ante a little bit more each time, and then finally said he was going to therapy, and did all the things to make her feel like he was gonna change and he was gonna be different. I really feel for her, because then on the last one, he's finally seemingly doing the thing that she wants. She finds out a thing from way before. It's like the perfect storm of why she's stuck feeling shameful and guilty and all of that, but I'm here to say, this toxic thing is bringing out the worst in both of you, I think is the bottom line. It's bringing out the worst in you. It's bringing out the worst in him. I think that whole paragraph there about how this probably was going to end up happening, and the fact that he's ghosted you once seems like he's ghosting you again after saying, I love you. Not able to communicate about it doesn't seem like his therapy is working if he can't even communicate, because that was the problem he was having originally.

Speaker 1:
[24:11] Yeah. I mean, she says it herself that this is an anxious avoidant trap. And here's the thing, was it an overreaction? I don't know that it was even an overreaction. That's really upsetting, especially what happened in January.

Speaker 2:
[24:27] Yeah. It wasn't like two years ago.

Speaker 1:
[24:29] Yeah. This was like a few months ago, and he's saying he loved you, and it was the two days before he decided he loved, whatever it was. So I think that is something that she's allowed to be upset about. And they call it an anxious avoidant trap, because it's hard to get out of, because now she thinks that, you know what I mean? She's feeling like this clingy energy, and then he's feeling like he has to be vulnerable. And this is probably the first time in your new quote unquote relationship that he has to be vulnerable, and this is his first test of that, and he's just disappearing. So it's a trap. He's avoidantly repeating the same patterns. You anxiously are repeating the same patterns. So yeah, this is the classic, I think, anxious avoidant trap, and he's kind of like probably, even though he says he's all in and he loves you, there's probably some like shit going on in his head about how he needs to run, and then you've given him the opportunity by doing this, and she, as an anxious person, is now like clinging further, feeling like he's pulling away, and it kind of like reiterates itself. And I think the only real solution, because what she said, sure, insensitive could be, seem like that, doesn't seem like the worst thing that anyone's ever said to anyone. Could come, you could come back from that with a securely attached, healthy person. Like that person will understand and not be looking for any excuse to run away. So it's like, that's why it's a trap, because they're both drawn to this person. There's part of her that's probably drawn to the person that she kind of feels like she needs to chase or get or win. And he's probably drawn to someone who's like that with him, but then also has his own shit, where he cannot handle like a vulnerability or a depth that would come with actually resolving this in like a healthy way. So she, again, this, I think, if she was with a securely attached person, like if someone did this with you, I think, I don't think it would be the end of your relationship with them.

Speaker 2:
[26:34] Yeah, no, I mean, at least, I mean, even a response and to say, yeah, that really hurt when you said that, that was a low blow. But I, it was, let's also address the fact that I did this sketchy thing, because that's what happens. Like when you lose your mind like this, now the conversation turns to, I lost my mind, I'm so sorry. And you forget about the fact that he did have sex with you one day after, like, this wasn't a random thing.

Speaker 1:
[27:02] He just came back to you. Yeah, he still came back to you.

Speaker 2:
[27:05] Had sex with you and then went on a date with a brand new random person from a dating app. Like, the next day, that's not cool, and you have every right to be mad about that.

Speaker 1:
[27:16] I think he's using this as an excuse, or at least his mind is telling him, like, okay, now you should run again.

Speaker 2:
[27:22] And if it wasn't this, I think it would be something else. Therapy is great, but it's not an overnight cure, especially if there's like deep attachment issues. And to me more than anything, the fact that he's avoiding her and crickets and not talking to her, that's, to me, you got to get out. Because that's what he did. He literally ghosted you from what she said. And one of the times that he decided not to, they didn't want to be in it anymore. So it's one thing. I would say maybe you should really try, keep trying. If he came back and he was like, yeah, I'm really upset about that. I don't know if I can get over it or that was really hurtful, or something. But the fact that he's totally ignoring you, to me, that's your sign that he has not changed and it's gonna be hard, but you gotta go.

Speaker 1:
[28:20] That's why these people never date a secure person. Neither of them wind up doing that until they get to a certain point. Because if she were dating a secure person, I think that person would work this out, would actually say, and she might be bored because it wasn't as exciting and there wasn't the highs and lows and she wouldn't feel like she caught someone who was trying to wriggle out of their grasp. And for him, if he was dating a secure person and he decided not to commit, that person would be turned off by him. And that was always the thing for me as an anxious dater that was so hard, the point that was hard to get to would be to be turned off by that behavior. For me, it was like I was sad, and I was like, in some ways, want them more. But if you're a secure woman, and a guy is like, I'm not ready to commit, you're like, okay, bye, and you're just not interested in them anymore.

Speaker 2:
[29:11] Right, because you feel like I know my worth, I believe my worth with or without you. I don't need you to determine my worthiness. So if you don't, this isn't as, I'm sure there's some sting even for the most secure person if someone's like being wishy-washy. Yeah, there's a little bit, but there's not this piece of like, now I'm going to second guess my whole sense of self. It's like, I know I'm great. If you don't see that, there's probably something wrong with you. And now I'm no longer interested versus I'm seeking someone who's going to validate me, which is why I think in early 20s, a lot of women specifically have a hard time dating because they're still trying to figure out who they are and feel good about who they are, which is why this person, I think she's in her 30s. I, you know, developing a secure attachment at that point is part of that is saying, I believe my own worth and I don't need you to choose me for me to feel worthy. I feel worthy on my own. And if you don't see it, then I feel like maybe there's something wrong with you that you don't see that. And now I'm less attracted to you because of that.

Speaker 1:
[30:25] Right. To get to the point where you're turned off by someone not answering you after you've apologized and are being vulnerable and not sort of like thinking it's a problem with you.

Speaker 2:
[30:37] Which she is, because now she's like, I shouldn't have done that. I feel guilty. It's my fault. And I think that does end up happening. That's part of what keeps a lot of people stuck after a breakup is this self doubt. Well, what if I did this and maybe I shouldn't have done that and I said it this way, or I shouldn't have handled myself that way. Finding the security in yourself to feel like, I like the way I handle myself. I feel pretty good. Am I perfect? No. But if I do something wrong, I can own it, I can apologize, I can communicate. And if that's not enough for somebody, then that's probably not my person. And there might be something off in them that they're not seeing all that I have to offer. And the sooner you can feel that way. This isn't fun. And that's a turn off to me. Like I'm doing this because I want it to be fun. When you keep breaking up with me and then coming back, that's not really a good time. Like I'm not enjoying this. So it's a turn off. I'm sorry you're going to this. I could see why you got yourself caught in this.

Speaker 1:
[31:41] You didn't ruin anything. You were yourself. And like these things, it sounds like these things work for like a few weeks because you're both on your best behavior. And then when you're yourself, which is like a person who, you know, feels deeply and is, you know, that's the thing. Like you have to be with someone who loves you for your actual self, not like the best version of yourself that you're putting on so that they will agree to date you.

Speaker 2:
[32:08] He will be back. I think he will be back.

Speaker 1:
[32:11] Definitely.

Speaker 2:
[32:12] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[32:13] And it sounds like she would take him back at this point.

Speaker 2:
[32:16] Yeah. Yeah. I really, I think, I don't know. I don't know how long after she wrote this, but if he's ghosting you, that to me is like deal breaker.

Speaker 1:
[32:25] He up too. He's the one who, anyone would be mad about that.

Speaker 2:
[32:29] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[32:29] I would be mad about that.

Speaker 2:
[32:31] Yeah, me too. So if he's going to ghost you, ignore you when he's telling you, I love you, and then he's ignoring you, he's not ready. He's not healed. He's not ready. He's the same. You're kind of the same. This isn't going to work right now. Let yourself grieve. This has been a year of this, so this isn't, and it's hard with these types of things too because it feels like, well, we haven't really been in a relationship for a year. We've been on again, off again for a year, but this is, you're going to have to grieve this to move on. Yeah. And that's going to be hard. So I'm sorry that you're going through this. I appreciate you writing in, but yeah, ignoring someone when you're in a relationship is not acceptable behavior, in my opinion.

Speaker 1:
[33:15] Good luck and let us know how this pans out.

Speaker 2:
[33:20] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[33:21] This would be a good one if you want to come on for our Calm the Fuck Down episode. We can really dig in here.

Speaker 2:
[33:27] Totally. I love that.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[34:41] Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I love Oversharing. Look forward to your episodes every week. I have an ethical dilemma that I would love your opinion on. Is it okay to bring a baby to a fertility clinic or is that totally insensitive? My husband and I are pursuing IVF for our second child, not due to infertility, but because of a genetic condition. IVF allows us to genetically test each embryo to avoid passing on the condition to our children. Our first daughter is affected by it. As you know, IVF involves many appointments, lab work, ultrasounds, etc. One Saturday morning, my husband and I both needed blood work. We brought our five-month-old baby with us and didn't think much of it at the time. No one gave us mean looks, but in the waiting room, I suddenly wondered if this was a huge mistake. I felt terrible about it all day. This made me curious. What do you think about bringing a baby into a fertility clinic waiting room? Was this a huge oversight on my part or am I overthinking it? Since I'm going through IVF for genetic reasons, I may be a little less in tune with the feelings of those in the waiting room. Looking forward to your thoughts. Sincerely, baby faux pas.

Speaker 1:
[35:48] I've thought about this because I've seen signs when I was going to the fertility clinic, like multiple times a week. I remember seeing signs in the office that are like due to the sensitivity, like please don't bring any children or something. And I've seen that, I think, in a few different offices. And I remember kind of feeling like we live in the world. Like, I see babies, like I'm in New York City. I see babies on the street all the time. Like, I don't know. Like, I understand how that could be triggering, especially if you're like getting really bad news at a fertility clinic that day, which is somewhere you're much more likely to get hard. Like, it might be hard to see a baby as you're leaving or in the waiting room or something like that. So I understand that feeling. But I'm also kind of like, we live in the world. Babies exist. We love, seemingly everyone there loves babies because they're trying to have one, right? And so I could see, I could kind of see both sides of it. I remember seeing this debated on like a fertility, like Facebook group I was in or something like that. And I do think there's sort of like both sides to it. But there's also a lot of people experiencing secondary infertility. And like she said, it's hard to always get childcare for an existing child.

Speaker 2:
[37:12] I totally agree. That place might be a place where you just are getting some bad news and you walk out and you see someone else that has a baby. I think if you can avoid bringing your baby, maybe it would be a kindness, especially the doctor's offices are probably putting this up there for a reason.

Speaker 1:
[37:34] Someone's complained at some point. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[37:36] People are getting upset. If you can do it and it works out that you can leave someone at home, leave the baby at home with someone, then I think it's a kindness. If you can't, I wouldn't be running around like a chicken without a head trying to find a babysitter. If you have an appointment, you have a baby, you're in there. Whether you have a baby with a genetic condition, you have a different issue that's invisible to these other people. You have a baby, no one's in there for fun, with a genetic condition that you would not like your next child to have. So there's some difficulty around that, that this person who hopefully ideally at some point is going to have a perfectly healthy baby is not going to have that issue that you have. So we can never avoid all of our triggers. I think if it seems like it is bothering some people and you have an option to leave the baby home, maybe leave the baby home. If there's no option, I don't think there's anything wrong or bad or evil or mean about bringing your baby if you have to.

Speaker 1:
[38:42] And I think the sign is actually probably a good thing because I'm sure one, you could occasionally get an exception to the sign. Like if you need it again, if you needed to bring the baby, you have no one else to watch it. You and your husband both need to come in. That's one thing. And also like maybe the sign is effective for having it not look like a pediatrician's office where everyone is bringing their baby, which I think is probably much more triggering than seeing a single baby. Like for me, it was more like an outing where everyone was there with their kids was probably more upsetting than I see a baby here and there. So I think maybe by putting up that sign, people are just less inclined to do it. If you're so affected by just the sight of someone else's child, I think that that's a little bit of a you problem.

Speaker 2:
[39:31] Yes. Yes. Agree. So I don't think you did anything wrong. You brought the baby, you kind of had to. I wouldn't even say you have to go so far as like hiring a babysitter, that you then have to probably end up paying $100 by the time you leave and go to the appointment and come back and park, and that you should have to spend $100 so that you don't have to bring your baby into the office. Like I think if you can leave your partner home or somebody in your family with the baby, great. If not, it stings anyway. I mean, you were in it, right? Right.

Speaker 1:
[40:02] Yeah. You can't really avoid that.

Speaker 2:
[40:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[40:05] Go on Instagram. There's a million babies. They know what triggers you. You get pushed babies all the time. Yes. Again, you're in New York City. You're walking down the street. There's going to be someone with a stroller with their baby. But yeah, I think I agree with the sign. Yeah. And I think there can be exceptions to it. Solved. Let's do next. Yes. All right. Let's do some intentions. This one's a voicemail.

Speaker 3:
[40:32] Hi, Jordana and Dr. Naomi. I'm a huge fan of the podcast and all things Betches from London, England. And I wanted to write in today or speak in, I guess, and ask about an intention for when my fiance is quite stressed at work. I find it really difficult to focus on literally anything else, even though it's nothing to do with me. For context, we are getting married at the end of the year, we're in a super happy relationship in all other ways, been together about three years. And I just find it really difficult to relax when I know he's stressed or angry about something that's nothing to do with me, something that's happened in his work. He works super long hours in a corporate legal job, and that comes with a lot of stress. And sometimes when he is very anxious, and we work in the same office space, I can like feel the anxiety or the stress coming out of him. And I find it very, very difficult to ignore it, relax. And he just wants to be left alone and left to deal with it. And that's just not my way. I just want to go and cheer him up and make sure he's happy, et cetera. So I'd love an intention. I can just say to myself, when he's in one of those moods with work, or I can just say, this isn't about me. He's doing him, I'm doing me. Yeah, that's it. Thank you so much. Bye.

Speaker 1:
[41:49] Love the accent.

Speaker 2:
[41:50] Oh my gosh. Love it. This is so relatable. I think this idea of like taking on other people's emotions and yeah. Well, there's the one thing that happens where you're like, is it about me? I think a lot of people, if their partner's in a mood, I think it's about them. But this one, even once you realize that it isn't about you, it's very hard to sit and tolerate other people's bad moods and not try to fix it. I think it comes from childhood attachment stuff. When you're a kid and your caretaker, your primary attachment figure is in a bad mood, it means a lot. It affects a lot. If the person that, if you come home from school and the person that's supposed to take care of you is cranky or grumpy or depressed or angry or any of those things, it really does matter. Maybe they don't make you a snack or they're not listening to you or they're not attending to your needs. Or, and so I think we, that we evolve to be very, very sensitive to other people's emotions for that reason. And so even in adulthood when like, you don't need him to make you a snack, you don't need him to, you know, pack your lunch for tomorrow. You don't need anything really from him. His mood isn't really affecting you, especially you can, when you're a kid, you can't even remove yourself. You can't even get in a car and be like, hey, I'm gonna leave you alone. So I think this is, it's normal and it's hard.

Speaker 1:
[43:30] Yeah, and I think if they're working in the same room, like someone's energy does definitely affect you. It's hard to be like on Cloud9 when someone next to you is like frustrated and irritated for sure. I think that like doesn't feel like a safe space to be in a good mood yourself too.

Speaker 2:
[43:49] So I definitely think it's fair to remove yourself if that's an option, right? I think some people feel almost like, I think when you have this dynamic where there's one person that wants to be left alone when they're in that mood, and there's one person that wants to help, or if that's not what you would want, if you were in a bad mood, it can feel hard to believe them. Like they really want to be left alone, almost like you feel like you're abandoning them. I think that can come from childhood stuff too. Like when I was upset, I wanted someone to help me, and so me not helping you feels like now I'm leaving you in this lonely abyss of despair. When no, some people genuinely just want to let it run its course, they don't want to pull you in, believe him when he says he wants to be left alone, and leave the room. But like you said, there's an energy that just feels like I can't, there's just too much of a tension in here.

Speaker 1:
[44:53] It's also hard, I think, mentally to leave the room because you're like, what if it, like I want to know we're good. I know logically it's not about me, but I want to feel like you're still in a good mood around me, or like there's a, there might be something you tell yourself, like wouldn't he be in a good mood just being around me? Wouldn't that like help his mood to be around me? Like she said, it has nothing to do with you. And I mean, I'll speak from personal experience. I, Mike has like periods of work that are very, very busy for him. And he's usually in a shitty mood when he's doing them because he's like working late, or someone was supposed to send him a file and he didn't get the file, and he's like irritated with the person. And like, it's just like, and he's, again, he has to work longer, so he's not as well rested and all this stuff. And I think in the beginning of our relationship, I used to kind of take it personally, and I would get like irritated with him for being irritated around me. And again, he just kind of like wanted to be like left alone and just finish the things that he had to do as fast as he could do them and not have to like, you know, assure me that everything was like fine to, it's almost like that takes more time away from his, from like doing whatever he needed to do. So I think that was something to like overcome in a relationship. And I think as I got more secure in the relationship, and as we were together longer, I think it's easier to be, you know someone in so many different circumstances and it's much easier to be like, I know this has nothing to do with me, just from the time that it's happened. And also for me, I've been like, great, end of November is your like busy time. I'm going on a girl's trip. I don't like, I'm gonna leave you in your space to be like, you have this energy, I'm gonna physically go somewhere else. That's when I'm planning all my, you know, I'm doing a manicure, I'm going out to dinner with my friends. And so like I almost, I give him what he wants, and it doesn't, I know it's not personal.

Speaker 2:
[46:46] And he doesn't want to manage your emotions when he like walks out and he's cranky, and he knows that you don't, you know, that's affecting you. So yeah, I like that. And yeah, similarly, you know, Jeff is like, you know, he's like an artist and a poet, and he, you know, feels things very deeply. And he actually wrote this song, again, you learn through the course of a long marriage, he wrote this song called Dark Side of the Road. And the chorus is basically like, leave me on the dark side of the road, like, because we had this a lot, where he would get in his feels, and I would be constantly trying to like make it better and get him out and cheer it up and think of it this way and look at it that way. And so he communicated that through song and wrote this really beautiful song that I think about all the time for each other. And I think about it for tons of my patients, where it's kind of like, you have to be able to breathe and stay, allow, allow him to have his emotions not be constantly trying to fix. Like he's giving me permission to leave him on the dark side of the road. Like that's what he wants. When he gives me permission to do that, it makes me feel a little bit better. And I think in some ways you can turn this back on yourself a little bit. Like if you, what you want him to do, which is like get, look at the bright side or think about something good that's going to happen next, or maybe it's not that bad because of this. You can do that for yourself in this moment too. You're getting worked up about him getting worked up. So the intention that I wrote, I mean, I was kind of back and forth, but like one of them is observe myself. Like so, instead of just observing him and seeing what's going on for him in this moment and thinking about how I can fix him, like observe you. What's going on for you when he's in this place? Where do you feel it in your body? Where do you feel, what are your thoughts? What's going on for you? And allow yourself to kind of have that, whatever that feeling is, the same way he wants you to allow him to have his own feeling. So observe myself, allow myself, and control myself. You can't control him. You cannot fix it for him. You cannot get him out of it. You can control yourself. So you can recognize what's happening for you, and you can control your own responses and reactions. One of those things might be going and working at the kitchen table if he's like sucking all of the air.

Speaker 1:
[49:28] Are you going to, I don't know if you have an office, go into your office. Ask him to go to the office. Yeah, have him spread that energy there.

Speaker 2:
[49:38] Yeah. So this is very, I'm glad you wrote in. I think it's really relatable, but sometimes we're so focused on changing our partner in this moment. I want you to feel differently. I want you to feel better. I want you to think of it this way. Do that for yourself. What am I experiencing? How do I need to think of this differently? How do I need to look at this differently? And it's just the other piece of it is this is just a feeling it will pass. Trust him. You know, trust his emotions. His emotions, unlike the emotions maybe of your mother or your caretaker or someone. When you were growing up, that you couldn't trust that they would pass. You can trust, I hope that like you say, you trust that end of November is the busy season. It will pass. If you didn't trust with Mike that it was going to come and it was going to go, it would be very different. Like you've seen the cycles. You've seen how it works. So if you can, if you trust him that this is a moment and it will pass, then it doesn't have to feel as heavy as maybe it did with an attachment figure when you were young where it wasn't going to pass. It was going to be every day or intermittently, every so often without any predictable pattern, which then makes you feel a little bit more insecure of like, is this just today or is this going to be tomorrow too and the next day? And I don't know when it's going to come back. So that's when I think this takes on a bigger meaning is when you don't know if there's an end in sight or you don't know how long this is going to last or how long I've seen people feel like I can't take this anymore kind of feeling.

Speaker 1:
[51:17] Right. Yeah. If it feels like it's never ending, that's a different conversation.

Speaker 2:
[51:22] So if that's not the case, then just coming back to I know what this is. I know it's temporary. I can only observe myself, allow myself to have this feeling and control myself. All right.

Speaker 1:
[51:42] Let's do a trigger. Dear Jordana and Dr. Naomi, huge fan of you guys. My sister and I love catching up after your episodes every week. Love that.

Speaker 2:
[51:49] That's cute.

Speaker 1:
[51:50] I have a triggered scenario for you. This happened over two years ago at my wedding. I had a relatively large wedding party. Bridesmaids made up of primarily family and a couple of close friends. The dress was around $200, which I understand is slightly above average, but I also covered hair and makeup and offered to help anyone financially if needed and genuinely meant it. On the day of my wedding, as I'm getting my makeup done, one of my bridesmaids showed up with an elaborate story about the brand of my dress, sending her the wrong color and how she had to improvise and go to a secondhand shop. She assured me it was the exact same designer, color and material. However, when I saw the dress, I knew something was amiss. First off, this looked like the exact style I wore in another wedding. Totally different brand and material. The brand I selected had no styles that looked anything like this. After some investigation, I found that she wore this dress in another friend's wedding party. In the cherry on top, she made a comment to another friend about a week before the wedding, questioning if this other dress would pass, as she hated the color and had one that was pretty similar. It ultimately blended in okay. Most people don't immediately notice it in pictures, unless I pointed out, but I thought this was wildly selfish. For starters, this friend has a prestigious career and regularly takes lavish trips and goes for expensive meals. However, she was willing to risk fucking up our photos because she just didn't care enough to buy the dress. The worst part is the confidence in which she lied through her teeth. So my question is twofold. How triggered would you be? Would you ever mention this? I'm aware this might be past the reasonable statute of limitations. However, I've been working on my people pleasing tendencies a lot in therapy, i.e. tying my self worth to people liking or not being mad at me. I have a lot of pent up resentment about the situation. I think it'd be cathartic to stop playing the fool in the name of peacekeeping. Thanks.

Speaker 2:
[53:41] Never try to fool a bride. You are not going to fool. She knows every cut and color and fabric swatch. Don't even try.

Speaker 1:
[53:52] She could have risked ruining the photos.

Speaker 2:
[53:55] The whole concept of like if someone wears a dress that's like a slightly different hue of blue or whatever, I think is a little much. The lie, I think, is the part that would really drive me nuts about this, that someone who I picked as a bridesmaid because I thought they were a good friend of mine is going to come in on my wedding day, look at me in the face, and make up an entire story. That's the part that I find triggering about this.

Speaker 1:
[54:25] Is it definitely a lie? She's basically saying that they sent her the wrong dress and then she improvised and found this other dress. Is it possible that she's telling the truth? That's kind of my question.

Speaker 2:
[54:36] That she went to a second-hand shop and happened to find the same designer and color? That would be like winning the lottery.

Speaker 1:
[54:46] So she definitely lied, okay.

Speaker 2:
[54:48] That's what it's, I can't imagine, I don't know. Maybe there is such a thing as like a, maybe there is like a bridesmaid second-hand shop? That's a good idea, that's a thing. But I can't imagine you went to like a random second-hand clothing store and found the exact designer.

Speaker 1:
[55:06] She told the other friend she didn't like the color, so maybe it was because of that. I mean, listen, I understand the urge to be like, I have this dress already, I don't really want to spend $200. It seems close enough, like, from the friend's perspective, I can understand why she's like, I have to buy this fucking dress, I don't like the dress, I have a dress that's so similar in color, I could save $200 by just wearing this other dress. Does anyone really give a shit? I could see her playing that out in her head, because I probably would play that out in my head, and being like, wouldn't it be great if I could just wear this other dress that I already have and not spend $200 on a dress I don't like that I'm never going to wear again?

Speaker 2:
[55:42] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[55:42] Especially if she offered to financially help with anyone who didn't want to spend that on the dress. The correct thing to do would be to send her a picture of the dress, hey, I have this dress, it looks really similar to the color and whatever, do you mind if I wear it, instead of buying the dress?

Speaker 2:
[55:59] Yeah, and then if she says, actually, it's slightly off, then I kind of do almost think she should pay for it at that point. Like the bride should be like, yeah, that's really close, but I want it to be perfect. So if I want it to be perfect, I'll pay the $200 especially since I already offered. The truth is, she's admitting that it didn't even really show up in the pictures. So probably would have been fine.

Speaker 1:
[56:29] If you also don't do anything with those pictures, with the bridesmaid pictures, those don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2:
[56:34] Those don't go anywhere. You're not like putting that up really in your living room, putting up your pictures of the couple. So yeah, people get, I get it, we all kind of do it, get just sucked into this vortex of every little detail of the wedding matters so much that you're gonna risk a friendship over it. I do think the lie is annoying. I would be annoyed if someone walked in on my wedding day that I consider a good friend and looked at my face and lied to me. That would be, I would find that annoying. Two years later, would I bring it up? No.

Speaker 1:
[57:08] I think I'd let it go.

Speaker 2:
[57:09] I mean, look, you want to work on your people pleasing. That's great. I think that's a great goal to have. But I'm sure there'll be other opportunities to work on that besides with this particular friend. I think if you're good friends with her and it comes up naturally, I think you can say, you know, I, it seems pretty clear that you lied to me that one time. And maybe, you know, I feel like I wish you would, I wish you would have been able to just come to me and say, hey, do you mind if I wear this dress and we could have talked about it? But I would, unless it really falls right into your lap, I would let this one go. You'll find other opportunities to work on your people pleasing.

Speaker 1:
[57:52] I agree. I would let it go. I think the lying is like, right in the few weeks after the wedding, finding out that she lied, the trigger, I could see being like a six on the triggered scale of just like, I know she lied. She doesn't know I know she lied. It's almost like annoying because I want to yell at her, but I can't. Two years later, I think it would drop a little, especially if the pictures came out. Okay. And I again, I totally understand the front. I could see, I think both of us can see, being the friend, having this idea of how to save $200 and wanting to do it. You have to just text the bride and ask. And again, I think the bride should pay for it.

Speaker 2:
[58:35] Yes. These are supposed to be your best friends, your closest people. And suddenly, when they're in your bridal party, it's like they become like Queen Elizabeth the Untouchable, where you can't send them a text and say, hey, I have, oh my gosh, look at this dress I found. It's so close. What do you think?

Speaker 1:
[58:55] She's clearly scared of her a little bit.

Speaker 2:
[58:57] I don't know where that dynamic comes from, but I don't like it. It makes it feel like the loving, fun, you know, comfortability of being with a friend is gone because they're a bride now and you have to walk on eggshells. Like, I don't know why that happens.

Speaker 1:
[59:14] You know, I think it's like a vortex. It's like as you spend more money and spend more time on something, it's kind of like your youth sports thing, right? Like to me, it all seems stupid that anyone would care about, you know, seventh graders, how they're doing in basketball, but none of them are gonna be a professional player at all. But when you're in it, and you're paying and you're, like a wedding, you're in it, you're paying thousands, tens of thousands of dollars to do these things, and you're spending so much time, you know, we had our subscriber list episode, which will be out soon if it's not already out, where she's, you know, spending hours doing this DIY shit. It becomes like a big part of your world, and it becomes everything does seem very important, if the colors are slightly off, because you've already invested all this time and money and energy into it.

Speaker 2:
[60:07] Yeah, it's just the sensitivity with which we approach a bride is like as if she's like has cancer, and you don't want to like talk about the trip that you're taking while she's like in radiation treatments. Like this is kind of the sensitivity that we're treating this, where it just doesn't, I don't think it needs to be...

Speaker 1:
[60:28] Well, she didn't ask her because she knew she would say no.

Speaker 2:
[60:31] Yeah, so that's exactly right. Well, then it begs this other issue, right? Which is like, I don't condone lying, I don't like lying, but if you're finding that people are not telling you things or lying to you a lot, it is good to reflect on like your approachability and your flexibility and like how comfortable you make people feel to come to you and tell you the truth. So if you're in the wedding process right now, if you're out there and you're a bride and you're listening, be mindful of the experience of the people that you're asking to participate in your wedding and make it comfortable for them to come to you and say, hey, I actually don't really have the money to do this bachelorette trip or I know you guys want to do this. It just make it comfortable for people to share with you, to approach you, otherwise they're going to end up telling either white lies or big lies or whatever to try to make things work for themselves. So I'm not saying it's your fault that she lied to you, but I agree with you. She probably did this because she knew that you would say no, even though it didn't ultimately matter in the end.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] Validated for the lie. That's triggering.

Speaker 2:
[61:43] I'll give it a four for the lie.

Speaker 1:
[61:45] I'll stick with the five. Let's do another one. You wanna read it?

Speaker 2:
[61:47] Love the podcast, the funny heartfelt advice and your sisterly dynamic. I'm a long time listener and recent subscriber. I had to hear Jordana's birth story. As a fellow C-section mom, mama, haha, I loved hearing your take. Congrats on your beautiful baby girls. I'm writing today with a triggered scenario that keeps popping in my mind despite it happening months ago. I attended my husband's office Christmas party with him. It was the typical affair with a signed seating and a turkey dinner. During the appetizers, a female coworker, let's call her Emily, hollered over to my husband from the table next door, how's your salad, Chris? He responded, haha, fine, or something along those lines, and the meal went on. During the main course, I left my seat to go to the bar and get another round of drinks. From the bar, I noticed another female coworker, let's call her Donna, approach our table. I didn't think anything of it. I carried on with the drinks order. When I got back to the table, a male coworker was joking about getting out the deer apples for Emily because she's clearly starving. I had no idea what that meant and didn't ask. When we got home, that night, my husband casually said, can you believe Emily? I was a bit nonplussed. I thought hollering over from the other table to ask about his salad was a bit odd but not worthy of a can you believe? Turns out, when I was at the bar getting drinks, she hollered over again to ask, do you have any carrots left, Chris? To which she said yes. And she said, I'm all out. Can I have yours? He must have given some form of consent because next thing you know, Donna had been sent over to our table to spoon carrots from my husband's plate onto Emily's. I want to add here that these were regular, smugular boiled carrots. No special glaze to make them extra delicious. Not that that would excuse this weird and in my opinion, unprofessional move. The news of this interaction left me feeling uneasy and territorial. Well, I'm fine with a little office flirtation. The intimate gesture of asking for food off his plate is a step too far for me. Also, waiting until I was not at the table to do so adds another layer. I wish I could have seen this all play out firsthand instead of hearing about it later. Ultimately, I trust my husband wholeheartedly and we do joke about this often as I just can't seem to let it go. He's very reassuring when I bring it up, but to this day, it still chaps my ass. So, how can I be signed a Bugs Off Bugs Bunny Betch?

Speaker 1:
[64:24] Yeah, this is like irritating. I'll agree with that. It seems like there's like some inside joke that she's not involved in. And it does seem a little flirty and weird. It doesn't sound like he is like participating, besides, I guess, agreeing to let her take the carrots. But it does seem like there's some sort of inside joke that they're all doing and some sort of flirty, weird thing that's happening that I would want to know, like, explain the joke to me. Clearly, it's part of some sort of joke. Why don't you tell me what the joke is?

Speaker 2:
[64:58] Right. And I could see how she feels on the outside of this inside joke that's happening. I'm sure there was maybe some alcohol involved that brought the inhibitions down. I'm sure, like, at work, she's not going to come over and be, like, picking off of his lunch plate, I would hope. You know, or maybe that's her fear. You know, I could, I think these office party things can sometimes bring up these types of insecurities because it's like all these people that you're significant others spends a lot of time with. But now we're introducing alcohol and everyone's inhibitions are down. So if you're a significant other at one of these events, it can feel like there's this really loosey goosey way of interacting with people. But I don't think that's really how it is. I think it's just because now they're interacting with alcohol when they're not doing that at work all the time. So I could see her fear being like, are you guys like sharing a bowl of soup during the day? Like what, what's happening when I'm not around?

Speaker 1:
[66:08] I would want a little more context also almost of like, is this one of his good work friends? Does he talk about her at home? Is he, I would just kind of be like, oh, that's funny. Like, like this could be funny. Tell me what the joke, there's clearly some sort of joke. I would just be, and again, and not like aggressive, like what's the joke? I'd be like, like, that's so random. Like why would she do that? I'm sure there's a story behind it.

Speaker 2:
[66:31] That's what it seems. Although he didn't seem, you think he would share that immediately. Oh, there's this thing. Like she's a vegetarian and we bust her chops about it, that she walks around the office, like asking people for their vegetables, whatever the thing is. He would have shared that. But yeah, I could see this being annoying. I think it's more like you said, a feeling of like there's a joke happening and I'm on the outside. And even you say you're okay with a little office flirtation. And this seems like a office flirtation. I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[67:10] Maybe you're not okay. Yeah, but it's like in front of her. That's the weird part. I understand what she's saying where it's like, I understand if I'm not there and there's a funny joke, but it's weird. It's in front of her, but also trying to be hidden from her. Like they've waited until she's gotten up.

Speaker 2:
[67:25] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[67:25] Would you be okay with this if this was Jeff? If someone, you were at a dinner and someone...

Speaker 2:
[67:29] I think you're right. I think if I knew who the person was, I think if I had heard him talking about this person and I knew that he had a friendship with this person, and I was aware of who they... If this was a person that I had never heard of before, that he had never talked about or said anything about, then I'd probably feel more uncomfortable being like, oh, you're so close with this woman that she's taking food off your plate, but I've never heard you mention her name. That would give me pause.

Speaker 1:
[67:57] That would be weirder, almost, to me.

Speaker 2:
[67:59] Then, oh, it's Emily. I know you talk about Emily all the time. I know you guys are friends, like, okay, she came over to take the carrots. It's not my favorite thing, but it's some kind of joke that you guys have and whatever. But I do think that transparency, I always recommend that couples, if you have co-workers that might be of a reasonable dating age range or gender or attractiveness level that you talk about that, share your friendship with that person so that it doesn't feel like you're hiding an aspect of your relationship. If you have an interaction, just share that as part of sharing your day. And then once you know, okay, they're friendly with this person, I think that feels different than like this, where you've never heard of this person and she's coming over and taking carrots off your plate. If that feels weird.

Speaker 1:
[69:00] Assuming she hasn't heard of her.

Speaker 2:
[69:01] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:01] She probably feels a little crazy, like, is this normal? Like someone needs to like explain how this would come about.

Speaker 2:
[69:09] This seems also like an alcohol-induced thing.

Speaker 1:
[69:12] I would agree. Yeah, I mean, it seems like the husband thought it was weird too.

Speaker 2:
[69:16] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:16] But when he said it was, when he said, can you believe Emily? I'd be like, yeah, like what's the joke there?

Speaker 2:
[69:21] I'm glad he brought it up. That was nice.

Speaker 1:
[69:24] I think if this is a one-time thing, I would probably let it go. If it's like next time she's sitting on his lap, that's a different story.

Speaker 2:
[69:33] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[69:35] But yeah, the triggering, you can be possessive over your husband's plate of food. I'd give it a four.

Speaker 2:
[69:41] I could see it. It is weird. Even if it was like a male coworker that was like, it would still be weird. Like it's weird to come over from across the room and like take food off someone's plate.

Speaker 1:
[69:51] Yeah, there's like an inside joke thing happening. That's like, you're not being considered. I agree. Okay. I'd give it a four.

Speaker 2:
[69:57] If anything else happens, let us know. We'll up the ante. But for a first offense, we'll cap it at a four.

Speaker 1:
[70:03] Keep an eye on that, Emily.

Speaker 2:
[70:05] Yeah. All right. I think we did it. We helped all the people. If you have something that you need to tell us more about, if you guys listen to the subscription episode, we had a good chat with someone and dug a little bit deeper into what seemed more like a surface level issue. So if you're interested in that, hit us up and we can dive a little deeper in real time. All right. That's our time.

Speaker 1:
[70:32] Great work today. Betches.