transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:09] All right, welcome to another exciting week at The Scriptures Are Real podcast. I am so excited about this week. This is another one where we have two episodes. I'll explain why you won't want to miss either one. In fact, the second one is in some ways more important than the first. I'll start out by just apologizing that I'm recording this from a hotel room. I'm on the Board of Governors for the American Research Center in Egypt. It's the big annual meeting. I'm presenting at the meeting. I also just was in Board meetings all day. Lots of stuff going on, but we need to keep moving forward on the podcast. I'm recording this from my hotel room. I hope that's okay with you, but my mind's wrapped around Egyptology stuff, and that helps me as I think about the Exodus. This week for the regular episode, I'm going to start out with me going through the important things in the first part of the reading. We're going to talk about what happens at Mount Sinai, and some problems Israel has, and also we're going to look at the really sacred experience that many of them have. But then we're going to move to what the majority of the people that I talked about and asked to talk about this week, almost all of them felt like talking about Israel's problem with the golden calf was the most important thing, and so we're going to spend a lot of time on that. Andy Skinner and I are going to visit about it. Then I'm going to have, well, there's a round table discussion that we did on it, and then Paul Hoskesson is going to give another take on it. I will have some different takes than some of my guests, slightly different, I agree with them, but I also have more things that I'm going to add here in this first part, and that's going to be exciting. But I also need to tell you about the second episode, because this is the week that the Come Follow Me curriculum says we should talk about sacrifice and temples. And I'm telling you, that's my baby. This is really, really important. I'm in the middle of review and doing revisions of the book on the temple. I'm also in the middle of helping with the event, participating in the Linden Temple Open House. And my mind getting training for being a temple worker there, finished my temple service at Saratoga Springs as a worker. So my mind is so wrapped around temples right now. So we've got two rabbis who are going to talk to us about the temple. I'm going to spend a lot of time going through some of the things I've been learning about the tabernacle. And I just couldn't do everything that I like to talk with that, but I can go through some stuff that I would guess you're not going to hear anywhere else. And then for the Patreon website, we're going to go through Egyptian temples and what it can teach us about temples. That is just going to be so much fun. So make sure you do both episodes. And in many ways, Mount Sinai is a temple. So let's start. Let's get in talking about Mount Sinai. And I would say it really is a temple. It was already a temple when Moses was there. In some ways, you can define a temple any place where God is and he visits with his people. That's a temple. Well, Moses goes and is instructed by the Lord at Mount Sinai. He has to take his sandals from off his feet and so on. It has this experience with God. Now he brings Israel back to this. And what God intends is for all of Israel to see him, to come face to face with him. He wants everyone to come into his presence. Now, we're going to talk about that even more in the next few episodes because why they don't and we'll hit on it a little bit here, but why they don't and so on keeps impacting them for a while. So this is an experience that's going to keep building for a little while. But we need to go through some things here to understand it. And so I want to just start reading in Exodus 19. And there are some really key elements of this. All right, so we get in verse 3, Moses went up unto God and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain. That's Mount Sinai. It's become a temple for him already. It's becoming a temple for all of Israel. So he calls him out of the mountain saying, thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob and tell that children of Israel. I love this verse. Many people love this verse. Verse four, ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bear you on Eagle's wings and brought you where? Unto myself. He's saying, I brought you here to Mount Sinai. I've brought you to Mount Sinai. But since this is his temple right now, this is where he lives or when he comes to earth, that's where he's coming down to visit with his people. So he considers bringing them to Mount Sinai, bringing them to himself. That's how he thinks of this. That's worth thinking about, isn't it? He has bare them on eagles' wings and done so many things to bring them to him. I love that. Now there's some important symbolism for us to think about in that because he has brought them out of bondage and in a way they've turned their back on bondage, on worldliness, on Egypt. He brought them through the Red Sea. We talked about that being baptism in a way, covenant renewal, rebirth renewal, all this kind of a thing. And then he carries them to his house because he wants to be with them. That is, in essence, what he's trying to do for all of us. And so that's really worth thinking about, right? He's bearing all of us on eagles' wings and sometimes it's hard and sometimes it doesn't feel like we're on eagles' wings. But in reality it is, as he brings us to him. Now, therefore, if, this is an if-then statement, all right? If ye will obey my voice indeed and keep my covenant. This should almost sound fact as a mis- because that's how we enter into the covenant. If you'll obey me and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people. Segula, peculiar treasure, that's a word that Dr. Skinner and I will talk about in the next segment, and so I won't get into that too much, but think about how he's saying he wants to make them his in a different way than everyone else, and that will make them valuable because of how different they are from everyone else. So he says, above all people, for all the earth is mine. And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and an holy nation. Now, we're going to talk about what holy means in that second episode, and we'll understand this better when we do that. So I'm going to save it for the next episode when we talk about temples. But think of what he's asking. I want you to be different than everyone else. I'm going to change you. I'm going to have you just become more like me and less like the world. And that will allow you to be priests and a holy way. We're going to just substitute godly right now for that. I'll explain it more later. All right. These are the words. And then he tells Moses, these are the words, that shall speak to the children of Israel. So everything I just said to you, Moses, I want to say to everyone else, if they'll keep my covenant, then they become this different people that are more godly. They're very different. So Moses calls the elders of Israel and he lays the words before their faces. All the God had commanded him and all the people answered and said, all that the Lord has spoken, will we do? And then Moses goes and tells the Lord that and the Lord said to Moses, so I come into thee in a thick cloud that the people may hear when I speak with thee and believe thee forever. So this is an interesting thing. I've done a whole article on this where in the Old Testament, when God speaks to people, you get to what we would think are contradictory elements. There's always light and darkness involved with it. Light because God is a being of light and darkness because we're usually not ready to behold his full glory. So he's going to come down and there'll be light, surrounded by darkness, we could say there's the light of God and there's a veil separating us. That might be the cloud, as in this case, or something else. Until people are ready to come through, then that's what happens. So Moses then tells the people in verse 10, God says to Moses, go to the people and sanctify them today and tomorrow and let them wash their clothes. So we don't know exactly what the process for sanctifying is. That means to make holy or to make godly. Part of it is going to be ritual washings. We see that with their clothes and so on. And be ready against the third day, for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon Mount Sinai. And thou shalt set bounds into the people round about and take heed that you don't go up into the mount, okay? So the mount is holy space and they're not ready for that holy space yet. But he wants them to get ready and he's telling them he will change them and help them to be ready. So this is interesting. We also said he wants, I didn't talk about this yet, but we just read where he said he wanted everyone to hear his voice. We often miss this. It's only a little bit clear in the Exodus account. But when Moses retells the story in Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 5 and 6, it becomes clear all of Israel hears God deliver the Ten Commandments. They all hear his voice. They hear everything that's going on. So God wants them to be prepared so that they can actually see him. Verse 16, And it came to pass on the third day in the morning that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mountain, the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud. So they see the light, they see the power and the glory of God and then the cloud that's protecting them because they're not quite ready yet to come into his presence, but he's getting them ready so they can. And then verse 17, Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God and they stood at the nether part of the mountain so they're far away and signed eyes altogether on smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire. So you've got again that light and darkness, the glory of God and something protecting us from him and him from our unholiness and the smoke is going up and so on and the whole mountain quakes greatly. They are getting a taste for the power and the glory of God. This is something that sometimes we're not very good at. We often it's important that we've been thinking of God in terms of and his son Jesus Christ, right? And that's what we're talking about in some ways, both here. This is really Jehovah, but representing the father, as we've talked about on the podcast a number of times, this is we think of Christ as our friend, not a scriptural turn, but well, a couple of times he calls people as friends in the New Testament and the Doctrine and Covenants. We think of him as our brother. That's not a scriptural term. But we sometimes in doing that, and that's an important way to think of them, someone we can be very close to, and we should think of them that way. But sometimes in doing that, we lose the might and majesty of God. We sometimes water him down a little bit in our minds and forget about the might and majesty of our father and his son, Jehovah, his son, Jesus Christ. So when he comes down, the mountain is shaken, and there's lightning and thunder and cloud and smoke. It is a display of his power that happens naturally because of who he is. And God tells Moses, make sure they don't break through to see me, and many of them perish because they're really not quite ready yet. And so on. So then Moses said to the Lord that the people cannot come up to the mountain without charge of saying, set bounds about the mountain, sanctify. So he's saying, we can't come up, we set bounds and they can't go through them. And then the Lord said to them, away, get thee down and thou shall come up, thou and Aaron with thee. But let not the priest and the people break through to come up to the Lord, lest he break forth upon them. So they're not quite ready yet. They won't survive his presence. Moses and Aaron are ready to be transfigured. And then we get Chapter 20, and God speak all these words and everyone hears it. All right. I am the Lord, thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the House of Bondage. And then we get the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make into the any graven image. And we won't go through all of these. We actually could spend an entire hour going through the Ten Commandments and how they are still applicable for us today, how they're still real, and the cycle we can see in them of loving God and loving our neighbor and so on and so on. But that's not gonna be our emphasis right now. We're instead gonna get to verse 18 after he's given those commandments. And as we'll discuss with Dr. Skinner, it's actually originally probably a higher law. It may include these 10 commandments and then more. That's a higher law. I don't know what all it was, but now what we have is the lower version. Anyway, because of the choice that they're about to make right here. Verse 18, And all the people saw the thunderings and the lightnings and the noise of the trumpet and the mountain smoking. And when the people saw it, they removed and stood far off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear. But let not God speak with us, lest we die. Now, I touch on this a little bit in the discussion with Dr. Skinner, but I want to be more explicit here. They have a big problem, and we're going to keep returning to this. Their problem is that they don't think God can bring them into their presence. They said, okay, I know God said get ready, and I'm going to sanctify you. And part of the sanctification is giving them these commandments. Remember, he said, if you obey my commandments that I'm going to give you, then all these other great things, you can be holy, and holy is what you need to be able to come into his presence. So they need to receive this and covenant to obey it, and then they can come into his presence. But just the reception of it, because God is so glorious, scares them, and they are afraid that they can't come into his presence. And so they say to Moses, you go talk with them. We're not going to talk with them because we're afraid we're going to die. Now, Moses tries to convince them to do it differently. Keep all this in mind. We're going to come back to this in about two weeks. And Moses said to the people, fear not. They've heard that phrase before. The last time they heard him say fear not, suddenly fire came and was spit on the Egyptian army and the Red Sea divided. So this should clue them in, oh, God is actually pretty powerful at delivering. Fear not, for God has come to prove you. And that his fear may be before your faces, that you sin not. So he wants you to recognize his glory so that you will be obedient. For the people stood far off and Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was. They decided that they were not going to come into God's presence. They decided Moses should do it rather than them. And this will have huge ramifications. Now, I know that there are a number of reasons that they received the lower law. And that's what most of this episode is going to talk about as we talk about the golden calf and what happens there. But there's a teaching of Joseph Smith that we often overlook. This is what he taught. He said, when God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man and he refuses to receive it, he will be damned. Such is the case of the Israelites praying that God would speak to Moses and not to them, in consequence of which he cursed them with a carnal law. So according to Joseph Smith, what we've just read, this part where they say you go speak to God and not us, why should we die? That is why they get the lower law, the law of carnal commandments, the law of Moses, whatever you would like to call it, because they didn't believe God when he said he could bring them into his presence. He warned them, you're not ready yet, but he also told them, I will get you ready. And if you'll keep this covenant, if you'll make him keep this covenant, then I can bring you into my presence. And they just didn't believe him. And so they chose not to enjoy that blessing. And so God had to give them a schoolmaster to prepare them for when they could receive that blessing. And so they received the lower law. That's really important for us to understand. And we're going to keep coming back to that again and again for the next several weeks. All right. So that's what happens in the first part. And then they're going to get this law, the way we'll talk about with Dr. Skinner. But I also want to focus on Chapter 24, which is a really crucial chapter in a number of ways. So we're now in Exodus 24. After God gives them the law that they need to keep as part of the covenant. And this is a lower law, as we said. He said in the Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou an Aaron, native, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and worship ye if far off. So all of Israel has said that they aren't up for this. They don't believe God can bring them into their presence. They're going to stay away. But God says, I'm going to bring this small group. We've got four Moses, Aaron, native, and Abihu, and seventy. So this is calling of the seventy, as it were. And they can come into God's presence. And he said, and Moses alone shall come near the Lord, but they shall not come nigh, and neither shall the people go up with them. So they're going to come up to the Lord, but they're going to be a little ways off. Moses is the one who's going to be right by him. Verse 3, and Moses came and told all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments, and all the people answered with one voice, and said, all the words which the Lord has said, and all the people we do, so he gave them all the stuff that we had, starting from verse 20, or chapter 20 through chapter 23, and they're all, they say, okay, we'll do it. We're going to keep that covenant. And Moses writes the words of the Lord, and he rises up brand new morning, and he builds an altar with 12 pillars, according to 12 tribes of Israel, and he sent the young men and the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. So he made offerings, according to the law that they're just getting, and some of it he puts on the altar to sanctify that altar. Verse 7, and he took the book of the covenant and read in the audience of the people, and they said, all the Lord has said we will do and be obedient. So they're covenanting, just like we do the baptism and in the temple. We'll obey. And Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people. So note, this is really important. It's blood from sacrifice that's been on the altar and now on the people. So the sacrificial blood has sanctified the altar and now sanctifies the people who worship at the altar and make a covenant at the altar. They are sanctified by the blood of the sacrifice. Think of that powerful symbolism. And now listen to what he says. Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words. That's what they're seeing. The blood that comes from sacrifice and is on the altar in them. That's the blood of the covenant. Now I want you to think about this. Just a couple of weeks ago, we celebrated Easter at that Passover where Christ institutes the sacrament. When he institutes the sacrament, he calls it the blood of the covenant. It's very interesting, isn't it? It's pretty serious stuff that I hope we can think through and recognize. So I'm going to read that to you, where he calls it the blood of the covenant because you're going to need a little help seeing it. So in Matthew chapter 20, what are we in? 26? Yeah, Matthew 26, verse 27. And he took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, drink ye all of it, for this is my blood of the New Testament. That word should be translated as covenant, all right? This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Now, that's important. This audience, the apostles, are going to, and whoever else is there, are going to think of two different things when they hear that. First of all, Jeremiah talks about a new covenant, where the law will be written in their heart, in fleshy tablets of their heart, rather than on stone, because they keep breaking the law. So that's harkening back to this incident, right? This Exodus at Mount Sinai incident, where they get the law on this, where they receive the law, but it's written on stone. But they're also going to think of this incident in Exodus 24, where they have the blood of the covenant put upon them. And so this is where Christ in many ways is saying, okay, we fulfilled the law of Moses. It's the new covenant, but it's still the blood of the covenant that makes us a covenant people in a covenant relationship with each other. So this is really important and beautiful stuff, all right? So, verse 9 of Exodus 24, Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel. So they all, all seventy-four of them come and they see God. And there was under his feet, as it were, a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven and his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel, he laid down his hand, also they saw God and did eat and drink. Now, we're going to come back to that in just a second. But let's first of all think about the fact that God is successful. For those who will believe enough, he is successful in bringing them into his presence. He demonstrates, I could have done this with all of you. I'll just do it with seventy-four of you that are willing to come. I want you all to come and be with me. I think God wants so much to be with us. It's what he wants. He wants to bring us into his presence. He's in relentless pursuit of that, we could say. He wants to be with us. Israel refused because they didn't believe that God, even with all his glory, could save them because he was too glorious for them to be with. Sometimes we have our own versions of that. We think he's too good. We're not good enough. Really, we struggle with that, and we're going to keep talking about it for the next few weeks. But you think through that. So he shows them he can by bringing seventy-four of them into his presence, and they see him, and they eat and drink. They have a sacred meal with him, which in a way is in the ancient areas, he is saying, welcome to my household. You are now part of my household. Now, this is going, we're going to see echoes of this in the temple. We'll talk about that. I think we see echoes of it every Sunday in his church, his house there. It's not quite the same degree as house as the temple, but it is his house, and we have a sacred meal that we share with him that is the blood of the covenant or the blood of the testament, it's the sacrament, and that's what he called the sacrament. It should harken us back to this, where God says, welcome to my household, and in a way we come into his presence. The way it's promised in the sacramental prayers is coming into the presence of a member of the Godhead, the Holy Ghost, but it's all preparatory for actually coming into his presence. The way that these 70 did in Israel, who became holy people, they became priests and holy people, but not the whole nation the way God wanted because the nation refused. So you're going to have to ask yourself, how are you? Are you going to have a belief in God and enough faith that you will come into his presence? Or are you going to believe he can do that for others, but not for you? Keep that question in rattling around in your mind, you're going to return to it again and again and again. Anyway, after that, Moses and Joshua go up into the Mount of God and they will stay longer. And Moses is up there in the cloud, covers him and the glory of the Lord is there on Sinai and he covers it six days. And the seventh day he calls Moses out of the midst of the cloud. So it takes six days for Moses to become prepared to be in God's presence as much and as long as he's going to be. And he's going to be there for a long time. And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like a devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. Let's remember the majesty of our father. Tells us something about what we can become, but also about the sanctifying we need to come there. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud and got him up into the mount. And Moses was in the mount 40 days and 40 nights, which probably isn't exactly 40, but means a long time. Now this sets up the golden calf episode. Moses, lots of people have had this holy experience, but Israel has decided they don't believe God can save them enough to have that holy experience. So they're going to create their own kind of holy experience, which isn't actually very holy. Meanwhile, Moses is having an increasingly holy experience. This is almost inevitable. When we don't, when we struggle with believing that God can really bring us to him, then we create our own kind of experience that is a terrible imitation that is only going to lead us away from him. And so there's a part two of this rebellion that brings about the law of Moses. It's the natural process. It's just where things will go naturally when we decide not to keep coming to God, which is what Israel decided. Then we go somewhere else. And that's what I'm going to talk about. First of all, with Dr. Skinner, and then in the roundtable, and then with Dr. Hoskesson. And then we'll jump in and wrap these things up. But I want you to make sure you connect how they got there. Their lack of belief that God would exalt them, led them to where we're going now. Well, welcome to another segment on The Scriptures Are Real. And I'm always so happy and thrilled to have back with me one of my dearest friends and most valued colleagues and a frequent guest on this podcast that our audience absolutely loves. Way to go, Scriptures Are Real audience to have such good taste that we have with us again, Dr. Andrew Skinner. Thanks for being with us, Andy.

Speaker 2:
[26:37] Oh, thank you. I honestly appreciate the privilege of talking with you about the Scriptures. It's become fun for me.

Speaker 1:
[26:45] Thank you. Well, I'm glad it finally became that way. Yeah, so that is good. But this is what we live for. We love to have these kind of fun conversations. So we do. I'm going to set us up a little bit if it's all right. Please. My friend. So in in the scriptures, people will look back on the Exodus story for a number of reasons. The biggest reason is this becomes exhibit a prime example of God's delivering power. But in some ways, it also becomes exhibit a prime example of Israel's ability to do things the wrong way and lose blessings. It's both in the same story, which is remarkable. And we often have the scriptures referent to much later authors, whether that be in the Book of Mormon, even in the Doctrine of Covenants or in the Old Testament, we have or really even in the New Testament, we have people referring to when Israel was struggling and needed manna because they were struggling in their faith and so on and so on. It's often held up as that example of the struggle besides the fantastic definition or example of God's delivering ability. And that really teaches me something, by the way, that God can still be the great deliverer in the midst of our being the great ding-dongs. But in any case, we've talked last week a bit about that delivering power. And this week we're going to talk a little bit about Israel's struggles. And I always think it's important for us to pay attention to this because my premise is if our Israelite covenant-holding ancestors struggled with these things, then we as modern covenant Israelite covenant holders today will likely struggle with the same things, maybe a little bit different shade of that same thing, but we'll likely struggle in the same way. So with all of that wind up, why don't we talk about the provocation in the wilderness?

Speaker 2:
[28:46] Well, I appreciate what you said because everything you said about the great provocation or sometimes called the great rebellion, absolutely true. We see God's power manifest. We see Israel's rebellion manifest, but there are great lessons for me personally in this. And those are some of the things that I wanted to mention briefly. I'm aware that there are some biblical interpreters that refer to the provocation as say the problem at the waters of Meribah or Meribah, the Israelites don't have water and so they're complaining and they provoke the Lord in that way. Also, their, yeah, I guess refusal or at least strong murmuring against entering promised land in numbers. So I'm aware of those, but what we have as Latter-day Saints is the help of restoration scripture and that helps us to see that really the greatest of the rebellions is described in Exodus chapter 32. It is so significant that the landscape religiously changes. It is so significant, it's pivotal in Israelite history and sometimes even as Latter-day Saints, we kind of skip right over it and say, well, yeah, everything we saw in C. B. DeMille's movie The Ten Commandments is true, but then we go merrily on our way. But what we really do see here is a sea change. And if I can take us back to, say, Exodus chapter 19, where we see Israel arriving at the base of Mount Sinai, and they'll stay there for 11 months. And Moses, the great prophet, who's apparently more like Jesus Christ than any of the prophets, so says Elder Bruce R. McConkie in one of his writings, Moses converses with the Lord. And when they get there, Exodus chapter 19 says that the Lord tells Moses that he wants to make Israel a powerful nation. He wants to make Israel a kingdom of priests. I mean, he wants to make Israel, yes, a holy nation, but he wants to give Israel the opportunity to behold his face, to not just enjoy what the physical manifestations of his power, but he wants them to be able to enjoy his physical presence, even to the point of seeing him. And so this is what we start with in Exodus chapter 19. And in long about verse 8 in chapter 19, as Moses is telling the Israelites what God has in store for them, the Israelites say, yeah, yeah, everything that God says we will do. And then something happens. Part of their responsibility is that they must agree to the terms of the covenant that God wants to make with them. And in chapter 20, we see that the Lord is giving them commandments. There are things that we must do to hold up our end of the agreement. If these great blessings are being offered to us, the Lord has a right to expect that we do something in return. And He gives us, He gives them the commandments. And these commandments, whatever system you live under, these are commandments that are well established as the foundation of civilization anywhere you go. The Ten Commandments we're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[32:28] I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that probably initially they were given a higher law at that point.

Speaker 2:
[32:36] That's exactly right. That's the point we're coming to.

Speaker 1:
[32:39] So Chapter 20, we get the Ten Commandments, but that name may not have been what they got at that moment in time.

Speaker 2:
[32:45] So what we end up with in Chapter 20 is sort of a truncated version of the higher law with commandments associated with it. But the reason that we have the Chapter 20 in the form that we do is because of what happens ahead in Exodus 32. So let me see if I can lay this out for us. So Israel gradually begins to retreat from what they said they would do. Yeah, yeah, we'll do everything you say. But that's not quite the way that it happens because when they are pressed for responsible action, they start to retreat from that. And I always think, literally, I always think of the Prophet Joseph Smith's comment that we have, as human beings, we have power over those tempters who do not have bodies of flesh and bone. But in the same breath, the Prophet Joseph Smith says that the moment we, I think he uses the word revolt, I would say retreat or reject or not pay attention to, the moment we revolt at anything that comes from God, that leaves the devil open to exercise his power and his authority, and he's really good at widening the chasm between us and God. I can tell you that personally.

Speaker 1:
[34:13] I agree. It's almost as if we're on a playing field that is safer for us as long as we are approaching God with a submissive heart. But as soon as we have that bit of rebellion within us, we leave our playing field and we go to Satan's playing field. He's the great rebeller or rebel, right?

Speaker 2:
[34:36] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:37] He's very revolting. And so when we start to take on some of his characteristics, we go from God's playing field to Satan's playing field, and that's not a good place for us to be.

Speaker 2:
[34:49] Exactly. In fact, one of the statements that we find in Exodus 20, I think, is so revealing where the people say to Moses, I think it is in verse 19, the people say to Moses, you speak to us, but don't have God speak to us. They've been given this astounding opportunity to be in the presence of God, and now they're retreating, and now they're saying, well, yeah, Moses, you communicate with God, you be our intermediary, but don't have God speak to us. And I think that speaks volumes, and it also reminds me of, I don't think I've ever really revolted or have been a rebel, super rebel in my life, but there are times when I have not paid attention to what Heavenly Father is trying to do for me. And it's true, when you don't fully commit to what God is offering, then that door is open just a little crack, and Lucifer has his way of presenting counterfeits or causing doubts to arise in our mind, or just say, you know, it's okay to be a little lackadaisical sometimes because you can't operate this way all the time. Anyway, all of that is to say, this is what I see happening with Israel.

Speaker 1:
[36:11] And I'm just going to agree with you, and I'll spend more time on this in another segment, but verse 19 to me is one of the more pivotal verses, that one where they say, you speak with God, and we're not going to speak with God. Their refusal to meet with God the way he's asked them to changes everything.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] It does, and you see the slide downward, that slippery slope, because they have not accepted fully what God wants to do for them. And when you think about it, God is saying to Israel, I want to make you kings and queens, priests and priestesses. And it's not Aaronic priests that we're talking about, because the Aaronic priesthood hasn't been revealed yet. I mean, these are Melchizedek priests. And so what God is offering to Israel is what the Lord is offering to us in the holy temples that we attend, where he says, I would like a kingdom of kings and queens, priests and priestesses, so much so that you will become a peculiar people. And that doesn't mean weird. It's from the Latin Peculium. And it literally means private property or private treasure. And this is what God wants for Israel. And doggone it, like me and maybe some others, they don't see the ramifications of what God is doing here.

Speaker 1:
[37:44] And if it's all right, maybe I'll do it. Because I'm often trying to have a little segment on a Hebrew word to give some insight. And this is just a good place to insert it. The Hebrew for that phrase that we translate as peculiar is segulah, which literally means something that is valuable because it's rare, which is usually what determines value of something, right? But I think that's what he's saying. I am going to make you, you will be so different than the rest of the world. So like me, that's what makes you rare. It's what makes you distinctive. Your value, and I think even in terms of what President Monson used to say, a person's value is determined by their potential for eternal life or exaltation, right? But as you become more godly, you are that much more, not exalted, but kind of more exalted.

Speaker 2:
[38:38] You're that much more exalted above the fallen worlds, to be sure.

Speaker 1:
[38:41] Exactly right.

Speaker 2:
[38:42] And that's why I say, I love the translation. Maybe it's in my own making. I can't remember now. This idea of private treasure. You are the Lord and you are a treasure to him.

Speaker 1:
[38:55] Right. And it's a treasure because you're different than the world.

Speaker 2:
[38:59] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[39:00] You're now godly. You're different than the world. And I really think that's what segula means. You are my treasure. You are valuable to me because you have become more like me and you've left the world behind.

Speaker 2:
[39:12] Exactly. I agree 110 percent. I think that's exactly right. Now, do I do what I preach? Not all of the time. And so this is what we're striving. Yeah, that's right. It's the direction that you're headed, not where you're at or where you start from. It's the direction, as we hear sometimes. Nevertheless, the Lord does begin to give to Israel what we might refer to as their Constitution as a nation. Chapters 20 through 24, which is sometimes called the Code of the Covenant.

Speaker 1:
[39:55] Yeah, or the Holiness Code.

Speaker 2:
[39:56] The Holiness Code or however you want to refer to it.

Speaker 1:
[40:00] They're all correct names.

Speaker 2:
[40:01] But it's the Lord establishing the laws and limits of society for this holy nation that he wants to create. And as part of that, which is pretty significant later on in the Old Testament, is chapter 23, where the Lord says three times a year, all males of the Covenant. I think this is verses 14 to 17 or somewhere in there.

Speaker 1:
[40:31] 14, three times, thou shalt keep a feast unto me.

Speaker 2:
[40:34] Unto me, at the place where I show you. And of course, that place will become the Tabernacle or later on, you know, the Stationary Temple. And that defines the liturgical calendar for the Israelites and frankly for our Jewish brothers and sisters today. These three great feasts or festivals at the place where the Lord designates. Now it's changed a little bit for the Jewish people because they don't have the temple anymore. But those are important touch points to stay in contact with the Lord. And so, and then in verse 24, we get…

Speaker 1:
[41:13] Chapter 24?

Speaker 2:
[41:14] Excuse me, I'm sorry. Chapter 24 of Exodus, we get the account of Moses and the 70 elders actually enjoying the presence of the great Jehovah. And it's also interesting to me is that part of that is what's solidified with food, you know? And it's… there's an old joke among… at least it used to be among my Jewish friends is where you can say, you know, the history of Israel, the history of the Jewish people can summarize in a couple of sentences. They tried to kill us. They didn't succeed, so let's eat. And that's kind of, you know, with every great feast or festival, food is involved. And that's also part of the background for the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, in fact. So we see a lot of things going on here in this section of Exodus. And again, it all points to Jehovah's desires, to Heavenly Father's desires, to make this a kingdom, a holy kingdom, a holy nation, a kingdom of kings and queens, priests and priestesses. And the Lord is setting it up that way.

Speaker 1:
[42:31] Yeah. And I'm going to expand on that just a little, if it's right to say. His greatest desire is to have us become so like him, that we can be with him forever in that close relationship. And that's the point of becoming a holy nation. That's really what holy means, to become godly, or so we can be with him, or kings and queens. So all of what you just said is absolutely true, and it's in the service of our being with him for forever.

Speaker 2:
[43:00] Yeah. Well, and how many times in the Old Testament would you reread this very important statement? You be holy because I am holy.

Speaker 1:
[43:09] Right.

Speaker 2:
[43:09] You're my people. I'm holy. You be holy. And it's pretty simple, that simple.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[43:17] As the Lord extends these opportunities to his private treasure. And what's interesting to me is that after the holiness code is given or the code of the covenant, or however you want to say it, what does he do? He starts to give Moses the plans for the sanctuary, for the tabernacle. Chapters 25 through, really, I guess, 30, 31, we get all of these schematics, the plans for the construction and the use of this sacred house of the Lord. So the Lord, you can tell from the progression in Exodus that the Lord's really serious about making his people a holy nation.

Speaker 1:
[44:07] Amen. And I'll just interject that the Come Follow Me Manual asks us to have a special portion on that temple. So we're going to have a separate special episode this week on temples and the building of the tabernacle and the point of it and temples. I'm going to be talking about it with some stuff for my new book, and I've got some rabbis who are weighing in on it. So that's going to be a fantastic episode. And I'll also return to Exodus 19 and 24 in another segment of this episode. So this is going to be, in my mind, this week is a pivotal week, all the episodes we're having this week, for understanding the rest of the Old Testament. If you don't get what's happening here, you're not going to get what's happening the rest of the year.

Speaker 2:
[44:48] And then that, I suppose, amplifies the tragic nature of what happens next in Exodus chapter 32. And it's kind of interesting to me is we don't get a lot of run up or we don't get a lot of explanation, except for the text saying that Moses was a long time up on Mount Sinai, receiving the law, including principles that will help Israel be a holy nation. And that takes a while. And yet the faithlessness of a segment of the Israelite population is so great that in verse 1, because Moses is delayed from coming down out of the mount, the people go to Aaron, Moses' brother, and say, make for us gods, which shall go before us. It's like a slap in the face to Jehovah for everything that he's done in the past. The previous chapters, chapters 1 through 18, chapters 1 of Exodus, and those that follow. This is God leading Israel out of bondage with a strong arm and an outstretched hand with power and might and force.

Speaker 1:
[46:14] And specifically leading them away from polytheism.

Speaker 2:
[46:17] Exactly. And it's like, you know, Moses is gone for 10 minutes. And what do we do? We now press Aaron into service to make for us gods that will go before us. These are people that seem to have no conscience or at least a very, very bad memory for what's happening.

Speaker 1:
[46:39] The problem may be that they have too good of a memory, that they are going back to what they were before God. So it's not too good of a memory, but they're remembering the wrong thing. They can't quite leave what they knew before, and they have this fantastic, amazing experience, and then when it's over, they go back to where they were before, which is a problem we all struggle with.

Speaker 2:
[47:04] And honestly, it seems to me that it's a problem of not wanting to take responsibility that God asks you to take for your future existence.

Speaker 1:
[47:15] It's easier to go back to your old ways after you have this miraculous experience or a spiritual experience with God or something along those lines. It's easier to go back to your own ways rather than, as you say, take responsibility, take charge of your testimony, however you want to say it, doing when God gives you that experience and you know there are certain ways you should be different after it. But that takes consistent effort. It's easy to have a one time big push effort. He's asking for consistent effort. That's hard instead of just sliding back.

Speaker 2:
[47:46] Well, I had a discussion with one of my sons in law who served a mission in Russia shortly after Glossnost and the United Republic split up, and people were kind of left on their own. They had to take charge of their own lives, and they wanted to go back to the old way because they wanted to go back to their previous lives because everything was taken care of for them. They didn't want to take that responsibility. It required something of them, and now it seems like that's what's going on with Israel. Not only, and by the way, in chapter 32, verse one, that phrase where they gather themselves together unto Aaron and they say, up, make us gods, that word in Hebrew is Elohim, which is an interesting development there, and so.

Speaker 1:
[48:52] Because it could be Elim, which would be a simple version of make us gods, but no.

Speaker 2:
[48:56] No, it's Elohim, which is pretty easy, and this is a part that my wife picked up on Aaron, who's Moses' brother and has been witnessed to the great events with the Lord guiding them, is the one who's sort of leading the charge by saying, well, have everybody take their gold earrings, have everybody take their gold jewelry, and then he's the one that makes this molten calf. And it's hard to understand what's going through the mind of Aaron at this point.

Speaker 1:
[49:36] I really, really don't understand that. I laugh at the little part later where he is explaining to Moses and he says, I don't know, I just threw gold in the fire, and look what came out.

Speaker 2:
[49:46] Yeah. Golly gee whiz, you know, I don't have any culpability here.

Speaker 1:
[49:52] Yeah, I just don't get it.

Speaker 2:
[49:56] And then the fact that later on in the chapter, I know I'm jumping ahead, but just to make this point, later on, the Lord, through Moses and the Levites, he causes the death of 3,000 people who were sort of the ringleaders and the leaders of this revolt, this disloyalty. It's the height of disloyalty. It's idolatry on steroids, you know? And I always think of maybe not the most politically correct way of defining idolatry, but idolatry can be defined as spiritual adultery.

Speaker 1:
[50:40] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[50:41] That's what we're talking about.

Speaker 1:
[50:42] That's the scriptural way of defining it, whether it's politically correct or not. That's exactly how God explains it. He said, I just made a covenant with you, and you broke the covenant. That's exactly what a spouse would be saying, right?

Speaker 2:
[50:53] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[50:55] That's what it is.

Speaker 2:
[50:56] That's exactly right. I guess that's my point. And yet, Aaron is not included in the destruction of those that were the 3,000 or so.

Speaker 1:
[51:08] In fact, he kind of becomes the high priest out of this.

Speaker 2:
[51:10] Exactly. And so, you really do scratch their head. I am also aware of a passage later on in Deuteronomy. I think it's Deuteronomy chapter 9, where we learn that Moses really did have to intercede for his brother Aaron. And I guess he pled like crazy to save Aaron's life. But that's the nature of Moses. We see him in this chapter as an intercessor. We see him in the mold of a Savior, in the mold of Jesus Christ. When he's up receiving the tablets, of course, the Lord says, you better know what's going on down below, off the mountain. And so, when he comes down off the mountain, and these horrible things are going on, including immoral acts, the Lord says, I'm really mad. Leave me alone so that I can really get really mad.

Speaker 1:
[52:10] He says, I'm going to get rid of these guys. We'll start over with just you, Moses.

Speaker 2:
[52:14] With you, and this is Moses, who's again the intercessor, and he pleads for the Israelites. And he says, you know, give them another chance. And I really think that the Lord, this is a test that the Lord presents to Moses. He really wants, he knows what Moses is like, but I think he wants Moses to see what Moses is like.

Speaker 1:
[52:40] Plus us to see. We learn about Christ as we see Moses, like Abraham pleading and interceding for people. Can we just spare this many people? Can we help in this? Right. And I think it's interesting because there's something ironic. He's basically offering for Moses to become a new Abraham.

Speaker 2:
[52:59] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[52:59] Because he said, OK, we start with Abraham and Israel comes from there. He's saying, OK, I'm going to start over with you, Moses. And what does Moses do? He pleads for people to survive like Abraham.

Speaker 2:
[53:09] Yes, he does.

Speaker 1:
[53:10] So they're both teaching us about Christ.

Speaker 2:
[53:12] And that was my, you know, my point. You made it better. But the idea that in Chapter 32, along with all of the bad things that are happening, we see Moses's character front and center. We see him, the stellar, you know, leader of Israel. He pleads on behalf of all of the Israelites. He pleads on behalf of his brother, Aaron. He is an amazing, an amazing leader. One thing that I think is important to point out is it's not only idolatry, the making of the golden calf or the molten calf, but we read in Chapter 32, verse 6, where they rise up early in the morning, after they have made the golden calf, and they offer burnt offerings and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. And I just wanted to emphasize that word play, because that's not the way that the actual Hebrew term displays the activities of the Israelites. The word is lehatzek, and it literally, it has an immoral connotation, a sexual connotation, to be frank about it. And so what's going on is pretty bad. It's spiritual adultery, and then it's physical adultery, physical immorality, and this is horrible. I don't know how to emphasize it more than that. But that's what happened. And from the pinnacle of God offering to them the chance to become like him, kings and queens, we now have the low point, and Moses is right in the middle of it, and he's, I can't imagine the pressure that he feels, the sadness that he feels, the overwhelming nature of it. Maybe every bishop in the church probably has had some of those feelings as well. But this is the background, then, for what we really wanted to talk about was the results of Israel's idolatry and immorality. And again, we are so blessed as Latter-day Saints to have two passages of Scripture that the rest of Christianity does not have. They have good information. I'm not saying that. We are just blessed with additional Scripture to help us understand what the real result was of Israel's actions. And so I'd like to take us to the Joseph Smith translation of Exodus 34. That will be the first one. And then we'll go to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 84. And it's not actually Exodus 32. It's Exodus 34, where we get this tremendous change. It is revolutionary, and it's, frankly, the origins of the Aaronic priesthood.

Speaker 1:
[56:45] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[56:47] So Exodus 34, 1 and 2, the Joseph Smith translation. And this is, again, the result of Israel's great apostasy, great rebellion, great provocation, however you want to term that. Verse 1, the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two other tablets of stone, like unto the first. And I guess we should have said that when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, he broke the tablets that he possessed. So the Lord is now saying, Hew two other tablets of stone like unto the first, and I will write upon them also the words of the law, according as they were written at the first, on the tables which thou breakest, but it shall not be, and we could insert completely, according unto the first tablets, for I will take away the priesthood out of their midst, therefore my holy order, and the ordinances thereof shall not go before them, for my presence shall not go up in their midst, lest I destroy them. I will give unto them the law as at first, but it shall be after the law of carnal commandments, for I have sworn in my wrath, that they shall not enter into my rest, they shall not enter into my presence, into my rest, in the days of their pilgrimage, therefore, do as I have commanded thee, and be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto Mount Sinai. So, this is, this really kind of takes your breath away because what is it that Israel has lost as a result of their horrendous action of apostasy? The priesthood is taken away. What priesthood is taken away? It's the Melchizedek Priesthood. The ordinance is associated with the Melchizedek Priesthood. The covenants associated with the Melchizedek Priesthood. Every, basically everything that we receive in the temple in modern times. The higher law is gone, which is spiritually based, and the power of godliness is taken away, as we shall see momentarily when we go to section 84. What's left in place of the Melchizedek Priesthood is the lesser law and the lesser priesthood called the Levitical Priesthood, sometimes referred to as the Aaronic Priesthood. And it's really a law that is far inferior to what the Israelites could have had. I mean, it's better than everything else in the nations that surround Israel, but it's still pretty tragic.

Speaker 1:
[59:45] That's what we often refer to as the Law of Moses. That Paul will say is a schoolmaster, really, to get them to come to Christ, to get them prepared for the higher law.

Speaker 2:
[59:54] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[59:56] I would agree. And while we turn to section 84, I'm just going to add that Joseph Smith elsewhere, and I'll spend some time in a different segment focusing on this, talks about that they also received the lower law because of that refusal to come into God's presence that we talked about in Exodus 19. So we'll cover that as well, but let's jump into section 84.

Speaker 2:
[60:15] Let me start section 84, verse 19, which is talking about the Melchizedek priesthood. And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest. And without the ordinances thereof and the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. So that helps us to appreciate that they lost the power of godliness. Verse 22, For without this, no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live. Now this, maybe we ought to stop and say some have mistakenly thought that this is saying that without the Melchizedek Priesthood, no man can see the face of God, the Father. And they call into question Joseph Smith's first vision. But I don't think that's what this is saying. What it's really saying is that without the power of godliness, no man can see the face of God, the Father, and live.

Speaker 1:
[61:28] Without God changing their nature, we would say, exactly, exactly. As is described in Moses chapter 1. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[61:34] So there really isn't a contradiction between this verse and say the first vision or what Joseph Smith experienced and others that were associates. Verse 23. Now this, Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God. But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence. Therefore, the Lord in his wrath or his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fullness of his glory. Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst and the holy priesthood and the lesser priesthood continued. Which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel?

Speaker 1:
[62:33] There's that preparation idea again, the schoolmaster idea.

Speaker 2:
[62:36] Exactly. And so, again, to reiterate, I don't think we pay enough attention to this pivotal event in Israelite history. It changes everything, not the least of which is the fact that 75% of the Old Testament was written under the influence of the Lesser Law and the Lesser Priesthood. And that's why some of the things that we receive in Restoration Revelation is not found in the Old Testament. It's not an inconsistency in God's plan. It's the fact that the Old Testament was influenced by the Lesser Law as, you know, three quarters of it was being either composed or edited, or particularly edited. And so this is a pretty significant thing.

Speaker 1:
[63:33] Yeah. In fact, I would argue, and I don't know that I could say for sure, but that things that they had before this that revealed the truths about Christ and other things more plainly were then withheld from them. Because they were going to live under the Lower Law. So that's, you know, they had better teachings available and they lost them.

Speaker 2:
[63:57] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[63:57] Because they weren't ready for them, which is kind of the opposite of this idea that God has more teachings available for us, that as soon as we're ready, he'll give it to us. So you can either have that way. You can either, and this is this line upon line precept, right? Or line upon line idea. If we live according to what we have now, he'll give us more. If we don't, then we'll lose what we have now.

Speaker 2:
[64:18] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[64:18] And we see it happening with them.

Speaker 2:
[64:20] Well, and that's a principle in the Book of Mormon, Alma chapter 12. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[64:23] Well, that's all over in Scripture.

Speaker 2:
[64:25] You harden your heart. Good luck.

Speaker 1:
[64:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[64:28] You'll lose that which you did have. And I think that's an important point that you make. I am amazed at simply a reading of the Book of Moses at probably a great price, how much more we could have, they could have had in the original Old Testament had they not rebelled the way they did. And I think your point, to your point, is exactly right. Things never made it into the, what, version of the Old Testament written under the professor law, because people couldn't receive it. So stuff that maybe was in there got taken out, stuff that could have been put in never made it in. That's why I think that, this is me talking personally, this is so critical for us to understand this and to really look at what happened on this occasion. And in fact, we get a hint of this in the temple. I don't think I'm disclosing anything that I shouldn't, but we learn in the temple that there were two dispensations. Now, there was the dispensation from Adam to Moses, and then from Moses to Jesus Christ. And that breakpoint, the thing that caused this new dispensation to be inaugurated, was the event here in Exodus 32. Hebrews 3, and for the sake of time, let's just look at verse 8 and verses 11 and following. So Hebrews 3, of course, starts out by calling our attention to the fact that Jesus Christ is the apostle and high priest of our profession, that is to say, those who hold the higher priesthood. Verse 11, where we see the Lord saying, So I swear in my wrath, there's that wrath again, they shall not enter into my rest. Defined amazingly well by section 84, the fullness of his glory. It doesn't mean inactivity or cessation of work. It simply is the way that the Lord Jesus to express the fullness of his glory. And then all the way down to verse 14, where we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end, while it is said, Today, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts as in the provocation. And I really believe that this has been misunderstood. The provocation spoken of here really is the provocation that we discussed in Exodus 32. And what is some evidence of that? The fact that we have the same language in Hebrews chapter 3, as we have in Doctrine and Covenants section 84. The fact that the Lord does have wrath against Israel's rebellion, and the fact that rest is defined here the same way that it is in section 84. So I...

Speaker 1:
[68:08] And I think 84 is referring a little bit to 19 and 32.

Speaker 2:
[68:11] Oh yeah, there's no question about that. So I look at my own life and realize that what I don't have is up to me. And what I do have is up to me to continue to receive and to live by the principles that have been revealed to all of us, and personal revelation that we receive for our own circumstances, our families and our own personal lives. So all of that is to say, I hope what we have done is made a case for the significance of the events of Exodus chapter 32 and how that has affected more than just the ancient Israelites who lived at that time. But based on what we receive in our traditional version of the Old Testament, it's inferior to what was originally there or could have been there.

Speaker 1:
[69:13] Very good. And then I hope that we find some lessons for ourselves in there about, I mean, look at what happens with Israel in 19 and what they don't receive, that just a few of them receive in 24. And we'll talk about that in another segment. And then their slide in 32, and then ask ourselves, I think it's too easy to look at them and say, what is wrong with them when we must be struggling with something similar in our lives? And if each member of our audience can find one way that they are struggling with something in a similar way and do something about it, then we will be taking great strides towards becoming a holy nation and a peculiar people.

Speaker 2:
[69:58] I amen to all of that. And if I could just add one more thing, I think that we now are able to see that we can take almost every righteous figure in the Old Testament and see how that righteous figure is a similitude of Jesus Christ. Certainly that was one of the things that we learned about Moses in the chapters that we've discussed today. He really was a similitude of Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1:
[70:28] Good. And in that way we learn more about Christ and his atonement, as President Nelson suggested we should every week. So, well thank you so much.

Speaker 2:
[70:34] Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:
[70:36] Oh, there's always so much to talk about it. This is just good, clean fun, isn't it? Good, clean fun. And before we wrap up, I just want to tell my audience, I tell all of you, thank you for being with us. This is just so powerful, the stories that were and so foundational, the stories we're investigating together. And I love doing it with you. I do have the best audience in the world. And I love that you're part of the podcast family. I want to especially thank people who have supported us in so many ways. The Parke family, we wouldn't have a 501c3 without them, and they're generous in so many ways. The Franzen family, there are so many people that support us, but those are just a couple that I wanted to mention. Jennifer Beardall, I'll mention her as well, and we'll mention more in future episodes. But thank you for supporting us. Thank you for supporting us through Patreon. And for those of you who aren't able to support us in that way, please support us in whatever way you can, whether that be just sharing this with someone online or in person or just praying for us. Whatever way you can support us, we'd love your prayers. And that you'll also pray for whoever is listening, that they can be edified. It's, as we work on this together in whatever way we can, and prayers are maybe the most important way, but every other way you can, we appreciate your support and we'd love for you to get, be actively part of our podcast family. Let's just keep doing this together. So I want to just kind of wrap up by talking a little bit about Exodus 34. We've learned such powerful lessons here, but I want to pick up with the idea that Moses has been up with God, he came down, but then he's gone up with God again. And sometimes we miss an important element of this story. We think it's an interesting element, but we miss an important element. And to fully understand that, I want us to remember Moses Chapter 1, when Moses realized that he could not see God without the glory of God being on him, and God tells him that as well. And by glory of God, we mean God's enabling power through his son Jesus Christ, his atoning grace, that changes Moses' nature enough, we call this being transfigured, that changes his nature enough that he can be in God's presence. Well, now Moses is in his presence for a long time. And I'll even remind you that we get in Moses Chapter 1, I think it's in verse 6, but it might be 5, it's somewhere right in there, where God tells Moses that he can't show anyone all of the things he's done and have that person continue to remain on the earth. And that seems to me that what he's saying is, if I were to show you everything, I would have to change you so substantially that I couldn't change you back to have a nature compatible with the earth. You'd be too glorious for the earth and the people around it. I can't change you back when I've changed you that much. I think we see just a hint of that here. In Exodus 19, verse 29 of Exodus 34, And it came to pass, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hands, when he came down from the mount, that Moses whisked not, which means he didn't know, that the skin of his face shone while he talked with them. And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid to come nigh him. And Moses called unto them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him, and Moses talked with them. And afterward, all the children of Israel came nigh, and he gave them in commandment all that the Lord had spoken with them in Mount Sinai, until Moses had done speaking with them, he put a veil on his face. So he has to have a veil on his face when he's talking with them. Verse 34, but when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the veil off until he came out. Then he puts it back on. So, and verse 35, and the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone on him. Moses put the veil upon his face again until he went to speak with him, meaning God. And it doesn't stay that way forever, but it stays that way for a while. It seems to me that as he speaks with God for that long, that when he is transfigured for that long, his nature is that much more holy, more godly, less worldly for that long, that he doesn't change back instantly. He is temporarily incompatible with the people around him. His nature is that much more holy, so that they can't take being in his presence, much less God's presence, but they can't take being in his presence. He is so full of the light of God and the glory and the majesty of God, the holiness, the godliness of God. And godliness is so associated with light and truth, right? He's full of light and truth. He's changed and they can't take it. I hope that we are all becoming that way a little bit. I want to give a shout out to Dr. Franklin, he's written a book called The Spiritual Physics of Light. It's a great read. He suggests that there is a light that is part of truth that emanates from people who are immersed in truth, even though we may not physically be able to see it. And in this case, with Moses, they could physically see it. Our optic nerves going to our brain may not be picking up on it, but we are sensing it and being affected by it all the same. And we've probably all been around people who just emanated light and we could feel that light coming from them. It's usually associated with love as well. That's interesting. It's light and truth, but it's also love that usually is associated with this light that we can feel around people. And I hope that we are all that way with others in a way we may not recognize. I know I've been surprised when people have said that they've come to our house and that it's a feeling that is different than where they usually are and that they'd like to be there more. We've had children with friends who either weren't members or who had kind of rough environments, and they kind of crave being at our house. And it feels like our house is chaos to me. But to them, they sense the light. My guess is people are sensing your light. And the light which you're supposed to hold up is Jesus Christ. And in some ways, that's by bearing testimony of him and that kind of thing. But in some ways, that is developing this closer relationship with God and his Son, Jesus Christ, by making and keeping covenants, by treasuring up their word so that you have the Spirit with you, so that the Spirit can fill you with that light. It's really the Spirit that will give you light and truth. And then you will be holding up light. You may not be quite to the degree that Moses was, but the more time we spend with God in his temple, in his church, in serving his children, in studying his word, in doing what he would do, in loving, the more we will emanate that light and bless people. And that is just good, clean fun. That is exciting. It's delicious and it's full of peace, contentment and joy. Welcome to the Church of Joy, we could say. But I hope you'll share that light and I'm grateful that you share it with me. I always feel more light when I do this with you. Thank you. And I testify of the light of Christ in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. We have so much this week. You will want to miss all the extra material. So there's a second episode plus the special episode on temples. But tune in to part two of this episode. Don't miss it.