transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:02] LEMONADA What if the life you built online suddenly became real and completely out of your control? In Carol Clare Burke's debut novel, Yesteryear, Natalie is a trad-wife influencer with a picture-perfect life and millions of followers. Until she wakes up in 1855 and everything she's been romanticizing becomes something she has to survive.

Speaker 2:
[00:28] Carol Clare Burke is also the co-host of the podcast Diabolical Lies, and readers are calling this book impossible to put down with a twist that's completely off the rails in the best way. Yesteryear is available now in print, audio, and e-book. Hello, and welcome to Move Happier, a bonus episode of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast designed to pair with your 26 minutes of daily movement for the Move 26 Challenge. Today's episode is a perfect one for listening to while you move because we're talking about clutter, and clearing clutter absolutely counts as movement. I'm sharing a conversation I had with Cass Aarssen, who's known to her three million followers as Clutterbug. She's a professional organizer with a viral framework that splits people into four organizing styles, ladybugs, butterflies, bees, and crickets. If you want to find out your type, you can take her quiz at clutterbug.me. In her work, Cass kept running into the same problem. People can find the right system and yet still not be able to stick with it. So we'll talk about why organizing systems fail and how the four tendencies can help you actually follow through. Here's my conversation with Cass, aka Clutterbug.

Speaker 3:
[02:05] Hello, Gretchen, welcome to the Clutterbug Podcast.

Speaker 2:
[02:08] Hello, I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Speaker 3:
[02:12] You, I mean, I don't want to fan girl on you. We have spoken before, but you are definitely a hero of mine. It's true, when I first started my journey, I had never read a self-help book before. I was drowning in clutter. I sucked at all things, Gretchen, okay? I was like a disaster in all areas. And I read The Happiness Project. And this was the third self-help book I had ever read. And it changed my life because I was just starting my journey. And you talked a lot about the home and getting this under control. And it inspired me because you also changed the language around clutter. I highlighted it here. I've been talking about it for so many years, but you talked about like nostalgic clutter and freebie clutter. You gave different names to something that otherwise was just mess.

Speaker 2:
[03:05] Yeah. Freebie clutter. I can't resist freebie clutter. Ask me how many tote bags I have.

Speaker 3:
[03:13] I can't resist the clutter. I call it fantasy clutter. You call it aspirational clutter. So this cream is going to fix my face, Gretchen. I always think this is going to be the one. But what I love about this is that I needed to have the different language. I needed to have sort of the patterns shown to me to think about the solution differently. And you did the same thing with the Four Tendencies. This changed my life because finding out I was an obliger, I worked from home, I was trying to run my own business, and I was like, I need accountability. I hired someone to come to my home every day, and I quadrupled my business size within a few months.

Speaker 2:
[03:57] See, that is so fascinating, right? Because you might tell yourself, oh, what does a little bit of self-insight do? Like, that's not gonna make any real difference. And then here it is, it's like so concrete for you.

Speaker 3:
[04:10] It is, and I use it, like if I wanna work out, I know I have to schedule either a personal trainer, I'll be so mad if I, like I can't cancel on them, or have a friend. I tie everything, even something really silly, like I wanna, I don't know, clean the house today. I will say to my son, if I get the house done by six, we can go and like get ice cream after at Dairy Queen. And so, my success is tied at all times. Gretchen, I use this, this is my secret, and I use this every day. So I'm so passionate about it because also, in Clutterbug, helping other people try to get a handle on their home, I see why they also need to know their tendency. Not only is it important to understand their brain when it comes to their natural organizing style, but if you can't make yourself do it in the first place, and then you can't stick with maintaining it, it's all for nothing.

Speaker 2:
[05:07] And then Cass, our systems remind me of each other because I think a lot of times, people think, well, what works for you should work for me. And if it doesn't work for me, there's something wrong with me. What's wrong with me? Why can't I do what other people can do so easily? Or it makes us judgmental and we're like, well, if I can do it, why can't you do it? What's your problem? I don't understand what the issue is. Instead of just saying like, you know, some things work for some people, some work for other people. If this approach doesn't work for me, let me learn from that and try something different. I feel like so often people get consumed with self-blame or blaming others. When in fact, it's just like there's no right way, there's no wrong way. It's only the fit. And the key thing is what is the fit, which is what I love about Clutterbug too, because it's like once you see your category, you're like, oh, okay. Now everything makes sense to me in like a new, fresh way. I just see, it just illuminates myself.

Speaker 3:
[06:03] I feel like it answers some of the same questions, because I get questions a lot from people who say, okay, that's great. I know my style, but I'm not sure my family members' style, and how do I get them to do it like me? And so with the Four Tendencies, I now, listen, I know you don't like it when I call it manipulation, but I use it to manipulate, entice people to meet expectations. What's the right word?

Speaker 2:
[06:30] Communicate effectively. Communicate effectively.

Speaker 1:
[06:33] Speak their language.

Speaker 2:
[06:34] How can I speak your language so that you and I reach an aim together?

Speaker 3:
[06:41] That sounds way better than manipulate. My daughter, my daughter's 19, she is a questioner, so I can't say, clean your room. But if I say, if you clean your room, you're going to feel a lot better, you're going to sleep better, you're going to feel more focused, and give her actual data to support, the reasoning behind it, she will do it. My husband is a rebel. I cannot say, hey, could you wash the dishes for me? It's not that he's a horrible person, but something about that makes him like, ain't no way I'm doing the dishes now. But if I present it like a problem, as you know, if I say, I'm feeling really stressed and I have so many things to do, I have to do the dishes and the laundry and I have to work later, can you help me solve a solution? He will readily say, oh, I'll take care of this or that because it's his solving. What's happening here, Gretchen?

Speaker 2:
[07:35] There's so many things wrapped up in that example. First of all, you're an obliger and your husband is a rebel. That is a very typical pattern. As I said, obliger is the biggest tendency, rebel is the smallest tendency. Obligers are like the typo, fittingly. They match up the most easily with the other three tendencies. But when you see a rebel paired up, either in romance like with you or at work, like in a founding pair, if one person is a rebel, almost always the other person is an obliger. You guys are like a classic pairing. Here's the thing. Sometimes people think that rebels are inconsiderate or selfish but they can be enormously considerate, civic minded, selfless. But they're doing it because that's the kind of person they are. That is what they choose to do. And so what you're saying to your husband is, are you the kind of thoughtful partner who wants to lighten my load? Would you choose to do something out of love for me? Now, I'm an upholder. I'm the kind that readily meets outer and inner expectations. And I have to say this sort of baffles me because I'm kind of like, look, we're married. We got to get this done. I'm doing this. You do that. Like what? Like you don't choose. Just do it, you know, in the in like the rebel. They want that choice. They want that freedom. They want that self-expression. And the thing about a rebel is the more you ask or tell them to do something, you do ignite the spirit of resistance. And rebels will say to me, like, I might be I might be walking towards the dishwasher, getting ready to just without a word, unload the dishwasher. But if you say to me, hey, will you unload the dishwasher? I immediately want to be like, no, I don't want to do that. It's just this spirit of resistance that can get just activated in them. So if you it's really helpful to know that whether you're a rebel or someone else around you as a rebel, because you can kind of inadvertently just like get in their way and get in your own way by just sort of casually saying these things that really do not land well with them.

Speaker 3:
[09:34] It's true. I don't want to say you saved my marriage. But honestly, you may have because there was, I felt resentful and I feel like he almost felt like I was nagging and it was this very strange dynamic. But when I stepped back and just realized his brain works differently and changed the way I communicate, everything changed. So I say manipulation, that's not nice, but it's helpful. It matters. That's why I'm just, I'm so passionate about the Four Tendencies because I literally use this every day, but I also use it when working with clients. It's one of the first things I think about. I diagnose their organizing style. I try to diagnose all their family members organizing style. And then I think, okay, great. How can I get them to actually let go? How can I get them to declutter? How can I get them to be excited about this? And how can I get them to follow through? But I don't always talk about this hardly ever actually on my videos. And I know that it's the follow-through, it's the meeting the expectation, it's not only setting up an organizing system or decluttering, but keeping up on housework every day, where I've been failing people. And why I'm excited to have you, because that's the part that we need you for. We all need you. You got to hold up this mirror to people so they can understand themselves and not trick themselves, but like I hired someone to come to my house to help me because I understand how my brain works. Everyone needs that kind of understanding and self-awareness. So let's reframe the Four Tendencies for a second. When it comes to housework, if you are a rebel, which surprisingly Gretchen, a lot of people, when I put in the comments, they will say that they're a rebel and you said it's like 10% or something. But I see in my community, people who really struggle with clutter, a high portion of them are actually rebels. Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2:
[11:35] Well, see, this is so fascinating, right? Because probably what it is is that rebels are like, they don't want to live in a cluttered environment, right? But then they try to stick to these systems and they rebel against them. And so then they fail. So they're coming to you because they're like, okay, well, maybe the Clutterbug system is the one that's gonna work for me. But then they're like, but then I can't maintain it. Like I do it and then I don't want to do it. What's interesting, and maybe you've seen this in what you do, is I find that a lot of times people have the energy for like the big effort. Like, you can sort of, there's like a special energy and optimism and the kind of excitement and novelty about like doing something. But then keeping it going, doing that maintenance requires a different muscle. And so a lot of times people don't realize that they think, the hard part, the only part I need to think about is like this first burst. And I don't understand, like, no, this is, that is just one milestone in a lifetime of milestones. If you want to keep your house orderly or you want to exercise consistently or whatever it is. And so I bet there are a lot of rebels who are like, okay, I'm all in, I'm going to do this. And then, okay, but it's not, it's not sticking. It's not working. Or maybe they read about it and they're like, I don't know, that doesn't sound like it would work for me. I want to do it my own way. And then they're like, okay, so what do I do if I don't want to do it your way? And you're like, okay, well, this is, this is the way that we're talking about, you know? So rebels, because rebels can often frustrate other people because they resist outer and inner expectations, but they frustrate themselves too. And many rebels say to me, when I'm trying to get myself to do something, I resist. So how do, what do I do? Because they're frustrated.

Speaker 3:
[13:15] So for my listeners who are listening right now, Gretchen is going to solve all of our problems with her words of wisdom. But let's talk about, there's a lot of expectations that are tied to home management. There's expectations when we're looking at a cluttered space, like I've got to declutter and I've got to, where does this all go? And I have to keep things. But what should I keep? And it's so much pressure and responsibility and expectations. So not only do we need to know how we manage things, your Clutterbug style, how we naturally put things away and how we naturally manage our belongings, but we need to understand how we naturally manage our expectations too. So an upholder, that's pretty easy. To maintain the expectations of decluttering and organizing, they basically just need a list, right Gretchen? Like if I just gave you a checklist, you as an upholder would follow it, correct?

Speaker 2:
[14:11] But I think that, I mean, even to step back, I think one of the reasons people are feeling a weight of expectations is they're not living up to whatever it is that they're trying to achieve. Like that's why it feels like a weight, because it's like, well, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Do you think?

Speaker 3:
[14:26] Yeah. I also think people's expectations maybe are a little bit too high, but that's a whole other conversation that we can talk about later.

Speaker 2:
[14:34] Well, and one thing also, because you're an obliger, tell me if you experienced this, is I think sometimes obligers in particular lock into, this is what they expect, this is what they want, this is what I have to do, where no one says you have to, no one is expecting it. Actually, no one who is coming through your front door is thinking that or expecting that, but somehow in your mind an expectation has locked in. And so I think sometimes the thing to do is to just sort of step, is just to literally say, what am I expecting? Because sometimes people have the vague idea of like, I just want to have like a well-ordered home, and it's like, okay, but that's like an infinite, like you could take that so, so far. So what would that look like? And I think this is where Clutterbug gets into sort of like detailed categories and broad categories because people have like sort of different levels of how much that, how much like comfort they feel in that. But I think a lot of times the weight of expectations is really because, well, I just, I'm not, I'm letting myself down and letting kind of imaginary others down. And, and so like to really focus in on, okay, like, well, what exactly is that?

Speaker 3:
[15:47] Yeah. I know for myself, I, I put big expectations because I grew up in a home where my mom was such a clean freak and everything it was like, and I internalized those expectations, like it had to be done that way for me too. And I really beat myself up that I couldn't do. It was this, it wasn't healthy. So even as an obliger, I had to step back and say like, what's really my definition of what done looks like? And that's when I realized my mom's super detailed. I am not. And why was I trying to put my papers in alphabetical order? Why was I putting my spices? Why was I color coordinating everything? Like that didn't work for me. And so when I shifted that and relaxed that and took this macro approach, yeah, I was like, oh, so much weight was lifted off my shoulders. But it was still really hard to get started. It really was. And I did have to tie it to other people. And I did that through a YouTube channel, actually. Looking back, I was showing up for my community and making a video and growing a business. So I tied it to something external for myself, which is how I found the motivation. But I know a lot of people who are listening right now are like, I know what I'm supposed to do. I just can't make myself do it.

Speaker 2:
[17:05] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[17:06] Right.

Speaker 2:
[17:07] And so do you have a tendency can be can plug in? Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[17:11] Yeah. Right.

Speaker 3:
[17:12] So if you are an upholder, I feel like that one, you probably aren't listening to the Clutterbug Podcast because you probably have your crap together.

Speaker 2:
[17:21] Even upholders get clutter. But probably once they have a system, they will be pretty good at keeping the system. Or it's like, if you say, I'm going to put this on the calendar at this day, or every Sunday night, I'm going to take an hour to do XYZ. That's the kind of thing that comes naturally to them. Scheduling, monitoring, checklists, those kinds of things work very well for upholders, and they find them satisfying. That's the thing is other people are like, oh, you're constrained, you're chained, you're limited. But for an upholder, that really feels freeing because it's like, okay, this discipline allows me to give me what I want. So a lot of times, I think probably an upholder, even like a very cluttered upholder, if they use your system and then they kind of put it on the calendar, then they could maintain it pretty easily compared to the other tendencies.

Speaker 3:
[18:11] Okay, so let's talk about a questioner.

Speaker 2:
[18:14] A questioner is the second largest group. So if you're looking at a community or people taking a course, or you're trying to think about how to communicate with a lot of people at one time, you can think like probably most of these people are going to be obligers and questioners, like rebels and upholders are like the kind of fringe personalities. I remember when I came up with this framework, I went to my husband, I was like, you know what, I part of this like extreme personality type, and he was like, you think? Because he was not surprised. But so questioner, you mentioned your questioner daughter, and you did exactly what is the thing for questioners. Why am I asking you to do this? Why am I suggesting this system? What is my reason? Why does this make sense? And even the customization, like questioners tend to love to customize, it's like, hey, research really shows that if you're in an orderly environment, probably you're gonna find it easier to rest and you're gonna spend less time looking for things. And people spend, and it's a bonkers amount of times just looking for misplaced objects. And you're gonna feel more creative and you're gonna blah, blah, blah. Here's the research to show it. But let's talk about what works for you morning or night, weekends, weeknight. Do you wanna sit at a desk or do you like to sit on your bed? Do you wanna do something different with your desk so that you have more storage space? Like, let's really get into the reasons and the customization so that it works for you. Because the more that a questioner feels like, this is the most efficient and most justified system for me, it makes the most sense, then they get on board. They have to have that confidence.

Speaker 3:
[19:54] Yeah, I love this. And I can recognize the questioners in my comments all the time in my community.

Speaker 2:
[20:00] What do they say?

Speaker 3:
[20:01] Fascinating. So, a questioner generally locks on to the Four Styles more than anybody else, first of all, because I feel like they're looking to make sense of the mess. They're looking for like, okay, well, why doesn't this work for me? And I'm like, well, your brain is more detailed or you're more visual. Then instantly like, they're like, oh, that makes so much sense. So they're like, yes. And then they'll say, can I be more than one style? Can I be a style here at work and different at home? And then I'm like, you're a questioner. And I know, yeah, are you seeing the same thing?

Speaker 2:
[20:38] There's always a follow up question. Okay, because first of all, questioners are always like, but there's such a wide variety of mankind. How could you possibly limit it to four types? And you're like, okay, just look around, there's four types. I mean, and then they do want to say they're multiple. In the context of the four tendencies, the reason why they say they're more than one is they'll say something to me like, well, look, if somebody asks me to do something and it doesn't make any sense, well, then I'm a rebel. I refuse to do it. If something makes sense to me, I'll do it easily, like an upholder. And I'm like, right, because you're saying, why should I listen to you? And that is questioner. Thinking that you're more than one is a tell because they're like, well, at work it makes sense, but at home it doesn't make sense. Or the opposite, however they're thinking about it. Yeah, that is a big, it's funny that you see that too.

Speaker 3:
[21:27] Yeah, I do. I can pick it out in the comments. And I can also pick out a Clutterbug style quite often in the comments, where at least the detailed and the non-detailed, because the detailed brain, the analytical, very logical brain will ask those questions like, well, I like to sort these things in so many categories, but I'm not saying it's over 10. Is it detailed over 10 or is it less than, and I'm like, well, you're detailed. The fact that you're analyzing and trying to.

Speaker 2:
[21:55] But what people don't understand too, though, is sometimes it works both ways. People might say, well, all questioners are detailed. Well, no, because a questioner might be broad, because they might say, well, it's not efficient for me to spend all my time alphabetizing my spices, so I'm in a broad category. That's more efficient. Whereas the detailed person would be like, the most efficient way is to have it very detailed. Nobody's right or wrong. It's just a different way of thinking about it, you have to think about it in that question or way in order for it to make sense to them.

Speaker 3:
[22:26] Also, just for the questioners who are here, if you are a questioner, it doesn't mean you're also a bee or a cricket, or it doesn't mean you're also. There's so many different personality types and ways to really have that self-awareness, but they stack. They don't blend. So we're just putting that out there. For you questioners who are questioning.

Speaker 2:
[22:49] Right. Or to put it another way, you could be a questioner cricket, you could be a questioner bee, you could be a questioner ladybug, you could be a questioner butterfly. Butterfly.

Speaker 3:
[22:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:59] Right. Because they don't correspond. They're not like this one matches that one. They're stacking. Yes.

Speaker 3:
[23:04] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[23:06] We'll be right back with more from Clutterbug. But first, this break.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
[27:03] Okay, so an obliger. Let's think about if you could, well, I already know because I am and I use all the hacks to get stuff done. But if someone listening is not familiar, how can they use their tendency to help them not only get started, but with that follow through of those expectations of maintaining a home?

Speaker 2:
[27:24] Yeah, you always want to think about what is the outer accountability for this. So let's say you're in a family. You could say to yourself things like, I want to keep my house orderly because it'll keep me calmer and then I can show up from my family in a more tender, attentive, less rattled way. I want to keep an orderly home because I want my children to feel like they can invite their friends over and feel comfortable here. I want to feel like a friend could drop by at any moment and I'll hold the door open with welcome and I'm not going to be wishing that they weren't there because everything is messy. I'm going to think of my duty to my future self, where if we come to the end of the year and I still have this mess in the basement, I'm still going to be so annoyed with myself. I'm going to think of my duty to be a role model for other people and I want my children to see I live in this kind of home so that when they go to college and they have college roommates, they know what it's like to keep things in order. I want my children to be able to find what they need so that we don't have these frantic, unpleasant mornings of everybody running around looking for a Spanish textbook. There's so many ways to do it. Then your children can be your policemen too. I think you alluded to it. If I do this, then we get the ice cream. If I don't hold to this, you're going to be disappointed. You can also say to your kids things like, I said that I was going to clean out the basin. That's really important for me. Listen, if I haven't done it by the end of the weekend, you kids don't have to do your homework and they'll be like, they will watch you. There's all kinds of ways to activate outer accountability. There's so many imaginative ways to activate outer accountability. But the key thing is you have to see that you need it. Because what I find, I'm curious what you find, is a lot of times people feel like it's weak, or it's like training wheels that you shouldn't need to rely on. I shouldn't need outer accountability. I should just automatically want to keep my house orderly. Of course I do. Why wouldn't I? Everybody wants that. Why would I need to invite a friend over at least once a week in order to keep my house picked up? Why is it that I can't keep everything from getting dumped in the guest room unless I tell my sister-in-law that she should come stay overnight once a month? You're a big group. All of Lighters are like that. There is nothing wrong with you. That's just how your brain works. That's just how your brain works. You don't need to change it. Just use it. It is a tool to use.

Speaker 3:
[30:01] I love this so much. I see this in my business all the time. So here's the thing. Three times a year, we have an all-day live declutter. I'm always like, I'm going to see you there, you guys. I want to see you in the comments and I want to see you posting your pictures and people will show up those three days a year. We have thousands and thousands and all the comments say, I decluttered truckloads and truckloads of stuff, and yet I couldn't any other time of the year. Why can I do it now? I'm like, because you're an obliger. That's why. Because it's the accountability and so body doubling, even virtual body doubling is so powerful for an obliger because you feel accountable to that other person even if you aren't in the same room.

Speaker 2:
[30:46] A thousand percent. It's such a brilliant idea. It's such a brilliant way because this is helping people do what they want, but they need that accountability. It's so smart the way you're saying like, I'll see you in the comments, show your pictures because that is saying somebody's checking. I've got eyes on me. I remember I was talking to a very high-end fitness, like, you know, exercise place, and they said that they made this subtle change in the way that they asked their trainers to speak to a class is, instead of saying, I'll be here next week, they say, I'll see you next week, meaning I'm waiting to see you. And so it's not like I'm just hanging out. It's like, I'm looking for you to show up. And so these very, so, and this is the thing that I think is so fascinating. It's like, very subtle things can be enormously significant. And something like doing like this group clutter, you might be like, oh, well, is this just some gimmick? And you're like, no, it is not, because this is the thing that will unlock it for somebody. There's so much power in that.

Speaker 3:
[32:02] Yeah. And it is, I mean, it comes from understanding my tendency, but understanding other people too, and be able to make those subtle shifts that you talked about. I can help so many more people, and they can help themselves. Honestly, it's so okay. We're going to finish with The Rebel because this is the toughest that I just living with The Rebel. I really do. I struggle still. I found little workarounds, but I would love to hear from you, especially how to meet your own expectations as a rebel. So there is a high percentage of Clutterbug listeners who are rebels, even though it is a rare thing. And yeah, bestow your wisdom on them.

Speaker 2:
[32:43] Okay. Yeah, you really do want to know if somebody is a rebel because that's yourself or other people, because they're the most different from the other three. And a lot of times the strategies and tools that work for the other three don't work for rebels. So it's very helpful to know like when a person is a rebel. So there's a couple of different strategies that you can employ for yourself or for somebody else. One is an appeal to identity. So identity is an incredibly high value to rebels. They want to put themselves out into the world. They want to live up to themselves in the world. And so if something is tied to an identity, actions flow from that because that's what you do. So if you're an artist, then you're going to write every day because what does an artist do? An artist creates. And so you could say if somebody, if you could communicate to a rubbler, they could communicate to themselves like, I am a gracious host. I set a beautiful table. I have the best food and wine. I put together the most interesting conversations. I invite people into my beautiful home. That is my identity. So am I scrambling to like pick things up because I'm supposed to or because you told me to or because a friend is coming over? No, it is because I am a beautiful host. I like to have an elegant home. I care about beauty. I love order. These are things that go to identity. Action follows from identity. And this is why if you start nagging or reminding or even praising, you can get in the way of that because they're doing it because that's what they want. They're doing because that's what they choose. So an appeal to identity. But you could also have an identity like, I'm a thoughtful partner. I know it drives you bonkers. But because I am a thoughtful partner, I will do my part. Not because I have to, not because I said I would, but because I choose to do it out of love for you. Then there's information consequences choice. You tell people the information they need, you give them the consequences of their action or inaction, and then you just let things happen. And you don't save and you don't rescue, you just let consequences fall. So you could say something like, well, when you don't go through the mail and the bills don't get paid, then I don't know, our cable gets shut off. And then it's just like, okay, then you got to let that happen. If that person is supposed to pay the cable bill and they haven't gone through the mail and it's stacked up on the kitchen, it's like, okay, I guess we're just not going to have cable for a while, because the bill didn't get paid. Or it's something like, okay, I want you to clean out the basement. Now you could say something like, you know, if you clean out the basement before the weekend, then when all of the cousins are overplaying, they can all play in the basement and be out of the way of the adults because they can just do all their stuff down in the basement.

Speaker 3:
[35:36] That's good. You know, I've just had all these light bulb moments because my husband, I think part of his identity is as a problem solver.

Speaker 2:
[35:46] That's a very useful one.

Speaker 3:
[35:50] He's an engineer and he's always looking at systems and he loves being a project manager. It was his favorite part of any job he's ever had. So I thought I was manipulating him because I thought all rebels wanted to solve a problem, but now I'm realizing that's his. So I always approach something as a problem to be solved and then he goes gung-ho and super motivated to do the thing because his identity, this is so good, Gretchen, is as a problem solver. So if you can identify that core identity of a rebel, that's the fire, that's the spark.

Speaker 2:
[36:32] Yes. Well, and they might have multiple identities, but let's say somebody is an animal lover, then you could just say something like, oh, and if they don't get their food, I guess they're just going to be hungry. That maybe you wouldn't want to actually let your dog get hungry. It's like certain things where you can't just let them go. If you're going to do this with a rebel, you have to pick something where you could stand the consequences of them not following through. But I love this idea of an identity as a problem zone, and I also love the idea that you were thinking that it is inherent in the idea of a rebel because so often we start thinking like, well, all rebels are like this. Even the idea that all upholders are like, sometimes people think like all upholders are like A plus students, and it's like, no, I've met slacker upholders. They have very low expectations for themselves, but what expectations they have, they meet. I'm like, okay, well, they don't expect much and they don't do much. But they're still in a polter because once they decide they want to do it, they can do it. They're like, well, why can't other people do it? Which is in a sign of an upholder when you're like, well, what's everybody else's problem? I think for you in terms of like having a rebel spouse, a problem solver identity is an amazing identity.

Speaker 4:
[37:44] Yeah, it's pretty great.

Speaker 2:
[37:45] It's so useful for you because all you just say like, well, I'm having an issue. Is there a system to solve this? Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:51] Totally. I just reframe it. Now, I'm doing it without even thinking. I'm like, oh man, this needs to be done. I'm like, hey Joe, do you have any ideas of how this could be done? Then he's like, I'll take care of it. I'm like, cool, because, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[38:05] But the thing is, if you say-

Speaker 3:
[38:07] If I was like, can you do this? No. It's not that he doesn't want to. It's almost like that's the roadblock. It is. He's not even realizing it. He probably even wants to do the thing. He just doesn't ever want to be told or feel like he's being made to do something. I have to be very careful.

Speaker 2:
[38:29] This is the key thing. It's always from freedom. It's always from choice. But here's another thing that sometimes can be activated. They often will respond to a challenge or being told that they can't do something because that activates the, I'll show you or watch me. So somebody was saying that with her husband, she'll often say something like, oh, well, I guess you don't have time to work out before dinner. And he'll be like, of course I do. And then I'll go work out. Or like, oh, I guess there's no, like there's no way you could blah, blah, blah. Like watch me or, you know, or, yeah. Or somebody said she was trying to get her husband to quit smoking. He was a rebel and like everybody was telling him to do it. Quit, quit, quit. And of course he was just resisting, resisting, resisting. And then his 18 year old son said, oh, look dad, an old guy like you, they've got you chained. You're so addicted to nicotine. There's no way you could give it up. And this father was like, you think? Watch me. And he like never picked up a cigarette again. So again, sometimes people feel like is this manipulation? It's really just about communicating with a person in a way that they're not just like you say, like they just, they want to and like you've said something, they just like to set their teeth on edge. They just like, now they can't do it. It's like, oh gosh, don't say that, you know? If we're aware of this, then we can just be so much more considerate in our communications.

Speaker 3:
[39:53] And I'm just, my brain's going a mile a minute because I'm thinking about all these things about Joe. I know he read this book, like The Wealthy Barber and Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And the way that they framed credit and debt as like someone controlling you, like the credit card. He was like, I will never have debt again. Like he, you know? And I think this is all coming from his rebel tendency. He doesn't want, he never wanted to work for a boss. He had to be an entrepreneur. Like he really has this, you can't control me. You don't ever put me in a box type of like fundamental core, almost value. But that can be positive or negative.

Speaker 2:
[40:34] It's a path. And this is true of all the tendencies. The upsides are the downsides. The strengths are tied to the weaknesses. So like sometimes people are of upholder. They're like, well, upholders are great. They meet outer and inner expectations. I'm like, yeah, but we're really rigid because it's really hard for us to be flexible once we get our minds set on something. Sometimes we meet expectations where it doesn't make any sense to do it because we don't even stop to say, should I do this? My husband's a questioner and I will often say, should I do this? And he'll be like, why would you do that? I mean, there's power in all of them, but the problem is you need to understand, well, what are the downsides so that you can kind of figure out how to work with it so you don't experience the downsides. You only get the benefit of the upsides. Or if you're dealing with somebody in there, you don't do it in the way that's right for you because it might be very wrong for them. This is something that you often see with the Bledgers and Rebels. Rebels, they really dislike the idea of somebody holding them accountable, right? But the Bledgers need somebody to hold them accountable. So they often don't understand, they're like, as an upholder, I'd say to an Bledger, I don't need to be your babysitter, do your own work in your own way. Just come back to me when you get it done. Then a Bledger is like, that is not helpful.

Speaker 3:
[41:46] Yeah, it's not helpful.

Speaker 2:
[41:47] Why would I talk, why would I, that's not helpful. So by understanding, we have self-compassion, and then we also have more compassion for others. And so I love that the idea that like, you can communicate with your husband in a way that it's like, it gives him the satisfaction of living up to his identity and showing his prowess and problem solving, instead of constantly making him fight the impulse to resist doing ordinary tasks.

Speaker 3:
[42:13] And I think I just, it just dawned on me why I think I have such a high percentage of rebels in my core Clutterbug community, because my tagline, the thing I'm always saying is, you're not messy, you organize differently. You are an organized person. Your brain just needs a different system. And now I'm realizing that appeals to a rebel in a way that I didn't see before you said this.

Speaker 2:
[42:43] Well, and maybe even the identity of I am a ladybug. So I'm going to do my ladybug things. Yes. But it can't be...

Speaker 3:
[42:50] And it's not because you're telling me to, but because this is how my brain works. So it takes something that perhaps the rebel has felt like bad about in the past, not being able to manage their home or manage systems in a different way. And now they have, they see it as a strength and they see it as something to be proud of. And it's reframing their, they're like, now they want to do it and they're feeling really excited about something like before they weren't.

Speaker 2:
[43:15] But maybe the all day video thing doesn't work for them because they're like, I don't want to show up at 10 a.m. on Saturday, like why would I limit myself that way? But you could do something like, it's the boot camp challenge for those of you who are the hardcore ladybugs, today is the challenge. And like go off and do it and come back to us and tell us what you did. And then they're like, whoa, I'm gonna do it, you know, because they like that challenge. But it's like in your own way, in your own time, if it appeals to you, if this is something that's fun for you, this is something you might consider. That's the way to speak to rebels because then they're like, you know, and then it's like, oh, tell us like, what like innovative, creative systems did you come up with? We can all learn from each other. You know, oh my gosh, I can't wait to see what people come up with. They blow my mind with like they're just like their solutions that would never have occurred to me. People are like, yes, I'm amazing. I've come, even Cass has never thought of this. I can't wait to go in the comments and say what I figured out, right? Because that's so rebel. Like, I'm going to show you what I can do. My power, my choice, my freedom, my identity. Very, very rebel.

Speaker 3:
[44:24] Oh, it's so good. Okay. I hope you listening have some idea of your organizing style and the family members, not that we're manipulating, we're changing the way we communicate.

Speaker 2:
[44:35] Stay with us. Coming up, there's more of my conversation with Cass.

Speaker 3:
[44:48] Thank you so, so much. I'm gonna put a link to, of course, The Four Tendencies and all the other amazing things. Let my listeners know, though, you're doing something pretty cool with Move In in 26. How can they follow along with that challenge?

Speaker 2:
[45:00] Yes, come to my site, follow along with Move 26. Every year, I have a podcast too, Happier with Gretchen Rubin, that I do with my sister. And every year, we challenge ourselves and listeners to something, like it was Read 25 in 25, so read 25 minutes a day in 2025, and it's Move 26 in 26. So just move your body for 26 minutes. It could be stretching, it could be yoga. It could be clearing your clutter, because one of the things about clearing clutter is you gotta be moving around. And it's like, instead of thinking like, oh my gosh, I'm just going back and forth from one room to the other, you think, this is amazing. I'm doing my Move 26, and I'm getting my house cleaner. It's like a double win, look at me. Yeah, so everything's on my site, gretchenrubin.com. Plus, if you wanna take a quiz, I have a quiz to tell you what your tendency is, like, I don't know, three and a half million people have taken that quiz. It's all at gretchenrubin.com, so much, lots of stuff there.

Speaker 3:
[45:51] All my listeners, you need to know your tendency, but you also need to know the tendency of the people who live in the home with you, and your coworkers, and your parents, and it will help you not manipulate, communicate.

Speaker 2:
[46:04] We could do Game of Thrones characters, we could do the office characters. Like, once you know what you're looking for, you see these, you see these types everywhere.

Speaker 3:
[46:12] See it everywhere. Well, thank you so much. This is amazing. I'm just blown away by your brain, and how incredibly helpful all of your insight is to me and to the entire world. So thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2:
[46:27] Well, Cass, thank you so much for having me. I feel like we could talk all day. We're interested in so many of the same things. We are. That's it for this bonus episode of Happier. Thanks to Cass Aarssen and our producer Chuck. If you want a quick clutter clearing win, Cass and I created a scavenger hunt of 26 unneeded items you probably have lying around. When we're trying to clear clutter, deciding what to get rid of can be the hardest part, and this makes it so much easier. Plus, it's a great way to get some movement in for Move 26 and 26. You can walk around your space and see how much you can clear in 26 minutes. You can download it, plus join the Move 26 and 26 challenge at happiercast.com/clutter. Onward and upward.