transcript

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:35] From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro. I've never had an interview quite like this one with Charlize Theron. I came in wanting to talk about her storied career, which began when she was discovered barely out of her teens at a bank in Los Angeles. By her late 20s, she'd produced, starred in, and won an Oscar for the film Monster. While she's been in dark comedies like Tully and big-budget fantasy films like Snow White and the Huntsman, I was most interested in her latest turn as an action star in films like Mad Max Fury Road, Atomic Blonde, the Old Guard franchise, and her newest film Apex, where she kicks butt again, this time while being chased through the Australian wilderness. While we did talk about her roles past and present, our conversation almost immediately took a revealing turn into some of the most painful chapters in her life, I think surprising us both. That includes her experience growing up in a violent home in her native South Africa, her mother killing her father in self-defense, and the repercussions she's lived with ever since. Here's my conversation with Charlize Theron. So we're meeting the day after the Oscars, and I was watching your acceptance speech when you won your Oscar for Monster in 2004. And you're standing on stage, you're tearing up. It's clearly just this very important moment, which of course it is for any actor. Your mom is sitting in the audience and you thank her for all her sacrifices. When you look back now, what do you think about that young woman and what was happening at that moment?

Speaker 3:
[02:22] I feel the first thing that came to mind was just, this is something that doesn't happen to girls in South Africa. I remember looking at a map and I was like, God, we're all the way down here. What's going on up there? I remember feeling very lucky that I made it out here. And my greatest dream, my lottery win, would have been to be able to support myself as an actor and not have a second job. That was literally what I was aiming for. Not just aiming for it, that would have been, I just wanted to be able to support myself, not depend on my mom or a guy, feel secure and get to do this thing that I absolutely love. But the thing with my mom is very, I'm going to try and talk about it very professionally because I will tear up. She did sacrifice a lot.

Speaker 2:
[03:16] Yeah, and we're going to talk about that. And you can tell just in that moment, you know, the connection, the just looking at each other.

Speaker 3:
[03:24] Well, I couldn't look at her. I was like, I'm not going to look at you. Like the first part of the speech, I handled it. Like I was like, just really excited and shocked. And I was like, do not look at her, do not look at her. Because I knew that as soon as I looked at her, I was going to feel, I just knew that. Because it was somewhat of a shared experience.

Speaker 2:
[03:44] Yeah, I can see you getting emotional now.

Speaker 3:
[03:46] No, I'm not. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it's hard not to, because it's so real. You know, I'm a mom now, and I don't have to sacrifice the things like she did. So I know what she did. And I'm very grateful.

Speaker 2:
[04:04] I guess since we started here, we'll talk about the movie, but since we're already talking about your family and where you came from, you grew up in South Africa on a small farm.

Speaker 3:
[04:19] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[04:19] Tell me about what you remember about growing up there and what your life was like.

Speaker 3:
[04:27] I remember very vividly moving to that farm. I was four years old. I remember seeing it. I remember it being feeling when I was that age, so vast. It really wasn't. It was 16 acres, but it just felt like this vast, because I think they were growing alfalfa on it, and one side they were growing corn on it. So it just had this error of, and they had these two big reservoirs on it, and there was this big, big tree, and I don't know what tree it was, but it was kind of like it greeted you as you were driving in. And I have very, very vivid memories of this tree and climbing it, and climbing it recklessly, barefoot, and just feeling, it was like a sense of freedom, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[05:16] Were you like a tomboy? Were you an athletic child?

Speaker 3:
[05:19] Yeah, no, I definitely liked adventure, and I liked, when I think back now, every day was filled with kind of imagination, like, you know, I would go out and go to the garden, I would imagine I was a chef, and I was gonna, it was always, there was always a story attached, you know, the dogs came with me, I was like Sheena, Queen of the Jungle. When I started watching movies, I really kind of like started interpreting my movies into my everyday life. So yeah, I loved adventure, I liked getting into trouble too, you know, I liked to do things that I knew I wasn't allowed to do, but I was allowed to do so much, like, you know.

Speaker 2:
[05:57] You were allowed to kind of run wild.

Speaker 3:
[05:59] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[05:59] Craziest thing.

Speaker 3:
[06:00] Yeah, it was that, I mean, I could take my BMX out and go into like the closest little town to go rent movies. I mean, I would tell my mom, but I could do pretty much anything that I wanted to do.

Speaker 2:
[06:13] Did that make you independent?

Speaker 3:
[06:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:15] Growing up, you just felt like you had the run of the world?

Speaker 3:
[06:18] Yeah, I was super independent. I feel like that's not unusual though. I felt like my friends kind of grew up that way too. I felt like my independence also had to just come from like an emotional place. You know, my house wasn't always stable. And so I felt very responsible to like make sure that like I was taken care of. Like there was this kind of thing that by the time I moved out of the house, I knew how to take care of myself on many levels.

Speaker 2:
[06:48] Before we get to what was going on inside the house, outside the house is also a lot of instability. I mean, I was looking at your town and, you know, the mid-1980s in particular were sort of a time of violent uprisings against apartheid that led to a state of emergency in your hometown, Benoni. There was a lot of state repression, resistance. I mean, you were a very young kid, but do you remember any of that? Did that sort of play into how you saw things?

Speaker 3:
[07:15] Yeah, you just, you couldn't avoid it. Like violence and turmoil was something that was like an everyday life in South Africa. If you got in the car, if I went to the bank with my mom, that was something that you just saw on the side of the roads. And for sure, I saw things that I shouldn't have seen at a very young age concerning violence, because that was just the circumstances. So there was a lot of talk constantly about apartheid. It was a hot topic. Like you go to a barbecue, that's what everybody was talking about. They weren't really hiding it from the kids.

Speaker 2:
[07:50] When you say you saw violence, what, do you remember anything in particular?

Speaker 3:
[07:53] Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, like vividly. It's like tough stuff to talk about. I was like very young. I saw a man burn inside a car on the side of the road. God. And a lot of people pulling over and trying to help and not being able to help. I also then later, you know, I saw what HIV and AIDS was doing. Like I remember people being wheelbarrowed into our house because they knew my mom would take them to a clinic.

Speaker 2:
[08:33] You know, you have spoken a lot about the turbulence outside, but also, as you mentioned, inside your family and your father was an alcoholic, as someone myself who's dealt with alcohol abuse in our family, it is an incredibly difficult thing, especially for a child to deal with. When did you realize that your own home life was maybe different than other friends of yours?

Speaker 3:
[09:00] That's a good question. I'm pretty young, I would say, really young. I have memories from when I was really young, seeing, and it scared me, seeing drunk people, but like really drunk people, like people crawling on the floor, kind of drunk, you know? Yeah, and it was scary in the beginning. You know, like I remember vividly, like seeing my uncle, like really drunk, and I was, it was frightening, it was really frightening. But that became so consistent that that was every Friday, Saturday, maybe even every Wednesday, like my dad had built this really big bar inside the house. Again, not very unusual, like a lot of South Africans have a, like they love to kind of create a space in their house where they can drink.

Speaker 2:
[09:49] And barbecue.

Speaker 3:
[09:50] Exactly, exactly. But it became kind of the, where he lived. It was where, you never saw him anywhere else in the house, you always saw him there in the house. And he was very, he was a full-blown functioning drunk. But he had moments in his life where he would kind of like, like go missing, like we just wouldn't know where he was. And he would usually kind of return in a state that was pretty severe. And that's, you know, it would get messy and loud and my mom's not a wallflower either. So she wasn't just like sitting and taking it, you know. She was definitely, yeah, I mean, she made it known that she wasn't happy about his lifestyle. So it caused, because of both of them, it really caused a lot of like verbal abuse. And they also just, honestly, personally, for me, the worst thing was they would ice each other. They wouldn't talk to each other for like, there was like a big fight and then they wouldn't talk to each other for like three weeks. And I didn't have siblings. And the house just went silent. It just went totally silent. Like no one would even say good morning to each other. And like, I would be so scared to say something. So they were like, for three weeks, no one would talk inside the house.

Speaker 2:
[11:06] Did you feel like you had to mediate that or you just wanted to not be included in that?

Speaker 3:
[11:10] Yeah, I wouldn't, because it's South Africa. At that time when I was raised, it was like children should be seen and not heard. You never said anything ever, ever. I remember one time saying something to my dad and it was like, I was made very aware. Like you just don't do that. It's none of your business.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] Was he violent towards you?

Speaker 3:
[11:31] I mean, violent, he was scary in a sense and I wasn't like, he didn't hit me. He didn't throw me against a wall. But he would do things like he would drive drunk and he would drive scary and they would get into a fight and he would like, you know, you know, it was a lot of kind of verbal abuse. He was taking violence, he would become violent on things, you know. But he, there was also just a lot of threatening language, you know, that just became normal. It really became normal. And so I never, I never when I was younger, stepped in when I was around 12. I think I remember my mom, or no, maybe even 13. I remember my mom using the divorce word for the first time. And divorce is just, then was not, I didn't, we didn't know people who were divorced. And my parents weren't religious, but it was just culturally one of those things. Like you just didn't do that. Like, so that was never kind of even discussed. They had been married for 25 years. And so when she said, like, I think, I think the best thing for us is for me to separate from him. And that doesn't make any sense, but it was so scary because I didn't know what that would look like. And so in a weird way, I was almost talking her back into like staying. Because the alternative felt so foreign to me. But I think she knew and she was trying to figure out ways to, I mean, she sent me to a boarding school specifically because she wanted me to get out of the house. She knew that she had to get me out of the house. I mean, it was getting to that point where she was very aware what it was doing to me. It was a combination of all of those things just. It was so strange to, you know, because all the memories are there. And it's not that I don't try and think about it, but it's just weird. You're kind of like going in such a linear manner that it becomes almost more clear when you talk about it that way. Because people tend to just isolate it and want to talk about one thing. But it helps to kind of explain that these things build and they build. And it takes years sometimes for things to go as wrong as it did in my house.

Speaker 2:
[13:58] The reason I actually wanted to go linear is because you have mentioned in other interviews how everyone focuses on what we're about to talk about, but that everything that came before was actually where the real trauma lay.

Speaker 3:
[14:12] Yeah. I mean, there was definitely shock. Yeah, there was shock because it's a tremendous thing to happen in anyone's life. I'll just tell the part that we better talk about some fun things after this.

Speaker 2:
[14:26] We are going to talk about some fun things.

Speaker 3:
[14:28] That's all I have to say.

Speaker 2:
[14:29] I didn't mean to start here, but this is where we are.

Speaker 3:
[14:31] No, no, not at all, not at all. I was 15 years old and my mom and I, my mom would do this thing too. She would take me to the movies. When I was younger, it was the drive-in theater. Again, when I was older, I realized she was trying to get me out of the house. But we had gone to see a movie and my dad had taken the key to the front. Sad, not even the front door, the front steel door. Every room in our house had a steel door. So, if you got into the front door, the kitchen had a steel door that you had to unlock. That's the kind of violence that we were living in. Nonsensical violence, like violence that you couldn't reason with. It just... I mean, our country was on the brink of civil war. It was like... It was frightening. So, she couldn't get into the first lock, and we always knew where he was. His brother lived a couple of streets away, and if he wasn't home, he was always there drinking. And nothing out of the usual. I mean, we went over and they were pretty loaded. And I had to pee really badly. So, I ran into the house to get to the toilet. And he took that as me being really rude, because I didn't stop and say hello to everybody. Big thing in South Africa. The kind of respect that you have to have for elders. And he was in a state where he just kind of like spiraled. Like, why didn't you stop? Like, who do you think you are? And this kind of thing started. But anyway, my mom had a pretty bad couple of weeks with him. And I think he felt like I was kind of going through a stage of not, you know, I wasn't just going to my room anymore. I was maybe getting involved or I would protect her in the sense that I would stand up for her. And I think it had built. And that's why he was spending so much time with his family. And we left, but you could just tell. I just knew that that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back for him. I felt it. I felt like something was different. And when we got home, I sat down with my mom and I said, I think you're right. I think you should separate from him. I had never imagined that those words would come out of my mouth. But leaving that house, I knew something was just different. She knew it too. I knew he was mad at me. So eventually, when he decided to come home, I said to her, please tell him I'm asleep. And so I went into my room. I turned my lights off. And because I just didn't, I was scared. And I could always tell, like my window face, the drive in, I could always tell by the way he drove in, like the level of anger, frustration or unhappiness. And then the way he drove into that property that night, I can't explain it to you. I just knew something bad was going to happen. She knew it too. To get to the point, he finally broke into the house. He shot through the steel doors to get into the house, making it very clear that he was going to kill us. His brother was with him as well. And yeah, we knew it was serious. And so by the time he broke into the first gate, my mom ran to the safe to get her gun. She came into my bedroom. And this is again, one of those crazy things. The two of us were holding the door with our bodies because there wasn't a lock on it. And he just stepped back and started shooting through the door. And not one bullet hit us. It's insane when you think about it that way. But the verbal, I mean, the messaging was very clear. I'm going to kill you tonight, tonight. It was verbally very, very clear. You think I can't come into this door, watch me. And I'm going to go to the safe. Let me get the shotgun. Let me show you how I can get through this door, that kind of stuff. Encouragement from the brother. And my mom, he had walked to the safe and my mom pulled the door open while the brother was still standing there. And the brother ran down the hallway and she shot one bullet down the hallway that ricocheted seven times and shot him in the hand. It's stuff you can't explain and then followed my father, who was by then opening the safe to get more weapons out, and she shot him. Unfortunately, not an isolated story. These things are prevalent in a lot of families' homes. And I feel like women really get a very, very unfair shake, even I feel like in this country, women who nobody takes it seriously, the situation that they're in. And I don't think anybody took my mom seriously.

Speaker 2:
[20:02] In advance to this, you mean?

Speaker 3:
[20:03] Yeah, to how bad it was.

Speaker 2:
[20:05] Right.

Speaker 3:
[20:06] You know, when you're dealing with a charming drunk, like who could be very charming and was always looking for buddies to kind of like come join the party, and also a culture that just accepted it. Like, it was a culture that that was part of being South African. Like, men drink. And I remember my little tiny nephew saying, like, when people were like, what are you going to do when you grow up? I'm going to drink. I think that was part of the culture. That's when you become a man. That doesn't help either.

Speaker 2:
[20:42] I just want to say, I wasn't going to start here, but because I asked you before the interview if it was okay to talk about it, I guess that's why we've ended up here.

Speaker 3:
[20:52] And to be clear, I think these things should be talked about, you know, because it makes other people not feel alone, you know, and I feel like I never knew about a story like that. You know, when this happened to us, I thought we were the only people, my mom and I, that this was going on with. And now the two of us look at it, I've had therapy around this, and she's also just, she's a tough broad, so part of her is just like, it's part of my life. It's not who I am. I'm way more interesting than this. And oh, is she more interesting than that. So I know she won't mind this. So yeah, it's a good way to, I think, make people not feel alone. And you know, I'm not haunted by any of this stuff anymore.

Speaker 2:
[21:37] And in fact, you've become a campaigner to prevent gender-based violence. And you've made it an important issue for you. And you've been very clear that that trauma does not define you. It does, though, as you mentioned, bind you and your mother, though, and end your story. How would you say it changed your relationship to her, that moment?

Speaker 3:
[21:58] It's a very good question, because it did. It really did change our relationship. We were always very close. We felt like a team. But that night changed it. Because, in retrospect, once I got out of the shock of it, I realized that she saved my life, which is a big thing. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2:
[22:20] It's the ultimate sacrifice a mother can give.

Speaker 3:
[22:22] Yeah. And then also the aftermath of, she picked right up. This is, I think, such a testament to her strength, because the next morning she sent me to school. She was just like, we're going to move on. Not necessarily the healthiest thing, but it worked for us. She wanted me to forget about it. She didn't want me to like sit in it. We didn't have therapists around. It wasn't like she was going to say, like, go see a therapist. We just didn't have access to those things. So in her head, the best therapy was, we'll move on. We can't like sit in this.

Speaker 2:
[23:01] And did you, I mean, in the sense, did you like lock it away?

Speaker 3:
[23:04] I did, yeah, because there was a lot of shame kind of surrounding it as well, because I felt like everybody knew how bad it was. Nobody stepped in to help, but everybody knew. And then there was like, and like, I feel like kids had this kind of attitude towards me, like, even though their parents were in the same boat, I knew so many of them and their parents to be alcoholics, there was this kind of energy that was like, oh, well, yours is like really bad, like that happened, you know? Not being aware that they were moments away from having the same experience.

Speaker 2:
[23:44] Do you think it branded, like you felt like they judged you and it kind of separated you from them?

Speaker 3:
[23:49] Yes, and I actually, there was only one time I became violent and it was, a girl had kind of like taunted me with it. And she was kind of walking around telling everybody how she had seen my dad drunk and, you know, this was something that was super sensitive to me because he would show up at school events really drunk. And it was really embarrassing. And not that a child, I mean, I know this now, but not that a child should ever take that on. That's, that has nothing to do with you. But when you don't know that, you make it very personal. I always felt like I had to make excuses for him. I always had to like tell some story to soften the edges a little bit. And I think I did try to sweep it under the rug, because I also, I hated people feeling sorry for me. I hated it. I almost feel like that was the worst thing, was like that now for the rest of my life, people are going to feel sorry for me. So for the first couple of years, for as long as I could, I would have told this story that he died in a car accident, and that it happened then three years earlier. I couldn't tell it to my school friends. But by the time I left South Africa, that's the story I told. Because I didn't want to have people show pity. I didn't want pity. It made me so uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:
[25:09] So you end up leaving South Africa.

Speaker 3:
[25:12] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[25:12] And you're young. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[25:17] I had just turned 16.

Speaker 2:
[25:18] Which is amazing. And you go to Model initially in Italy. And I just wonder what it was like to be that person at 16 with everything that had happened.

Speaker 3:
[25:32] It was amazing. It was amazing because it was escape. Escapism. I could escape. The only thing that was really, really hard for me was knowing that I was leaving my mom behind. But she was the one that said, you have to go. Like you have to go. You got to go. Get out of here. Go and make a life for yourself. There's nothing for you here right now.

Speaker 2:
[25:59] What was it like once you got that opportunity and you were out in the world, sort of living at 16? Yeah, I did feel equipped.

Speaker 3:
[26:08] Yeah, I was so equipped. I mean, I knew how to take care of myself. That's just something my mom instilled in me, my lifestyle instilled in me, my country did. Like you just, you know how to take care of yourself. You know how to cook. And even in our school, they teach you how to sew. I mean, I know more than my kids will ever know as adults, you know, about taking care of myself. And I also had this real drive that I wanted to do it on my own terms. Like I didn't want to go out there. She had given me a credit card, but I was so determined to do this on my own and to not fail because I didn't want to go back. I didn't want to go back. And so I was running from a lot of stuff and I was happy to escape it.

Speaker 2:
[26:51] And you come to America and you're a dancer, and you're studying at the Joffrey Ballet, and you have a pretty serious injury or?

Speaker 3:
[27:02] It was a built up.

Speaker 2:
[27:03] A built up thing that you just sort of ended up not being able to dance anymore.

Speaker 3:
[27:07] Yeah. Yeah. It was like a consistent injury that showed up my knees. I was too tall to be a dancer. And by the time I got to Joffrey, I was mainly taking class. I think I was in full denial because I didn't have another plan. I really didn't have a plan for anything after that.

Speaker 2:
[27:25] It must have been scary.

Speaker 3:
[27:26] That was when it got scary, yeah. I went into like my first depression. I lived in somebody's basement. I was renting a room in this basement. It didn't have any windows. And I just remember it was like really cold winter. And I was living in darkness, like complete darkness. And my mom came over. She was really worried about me. And I'll never forget it. We sat on like this crappy couch that was covered with a blanket because it was so disgusting. And we both had a pint of ice cream and we were just eating ice cream. And she just said, she just said, like, you love movies. You were always watching movies, always. That's all you did as a kid. You watched movies. And then when you started dancing, she's like, newsflash, you were not a great dancer, but you were the best actor. Like you would go on stage and you could tell the story. She's like, you know how to do that.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] And you had not thought about that?

Speaker 3:
[28:26] No, no, I didn't even know how you went about it. I had no idea how you went about it. And neither did she. I mean, it was like, I'll buy the ticket, you'll go to Hollywood. And we got the ticket and I was like, oh, it doesn't say Hollywood. It says Los Angeles. I mean, that is how naïve we were.

Speaker 2:
[28:45] I was thinking a lot about how much you'd experienced from 15 to 18, which is this period in which this all happens. You have this traumatic event, you go to Italy, then you go to New York, you don't know what you're going to do, then you come to LA, you get discovered, you'd lost a career, you'd found a career maybe. I mean, most people experience that in one lifetime. Did you feel that, that already by the age of 18, you'd sort of gone through this enormous change?

Speaker 3:
[29:17] I just remember excitement. I really, once I got out of my dark hole, there's something about your naivete that makes you not think about the alternative. Well, for me anyway, I should speak for myself.

Speaker 2:
[29:37] I think that's true of young people generally.

Speaker 3:
[29:39] You just think like anything's possible, and nothing bad's going to happen. And not to you, you think you're invincible. I had big dreams, and I had this kind of clock ticking because I didn't want to go back. I was constantly kind of like a hustler, but I felt very, I just remember those years very fondly. I was excited. I had found this really great group of friends, and I was going out and dance. These were all things that I didn't grow up with. In South Africa, you don't go to a club. Some South African is going to be like, that's not true. But my experience was that there wasn't concerts. I didn't go to concerts. And I think even if there were-

Speaker 2:
[30:27] Well, there were boycotts, right?

Speaker 3:
[30:29] Yes, exactly. Sanctions kind of stopped up, but even prior to the sanctions, and I think even if there were, my mom would never let me go because you'd hear of like crowd bombings and things like that.

Speaker 2:
[30:41] So this was the first time you were able to really be young?

Speaker 3:
[30:43] Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[30:45] So in fact, the opposite of what I thought.

Speaker 3:
[30:47] No, I was like dancing until the sun came up, and then I would go to auditions and be great. Like I was like, I had no sleep. I functioned on no sleep. I ate terribly because that's what I could afford. But I was so happy. I was so happy.

Speaker 2:
[31:04] So this brings me actually to your new movie, because you've been doing a lot of tough roles lately, and you are what I consider to be our modern day action hero.

Speaker 3:
[31:20] Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2:
[31:20] Do you consider yourself to be an action hero?

Speaker 3:
[31:23] I don't know about the hero part.

Speaker 2:
[31:26] My words. I'm making a kind of obvious assumption considering where we've started, but I've heard you just say words like independent, self-sufficient, wanting to do things your own way. And to me, there's just a very clear through line to this version of your career. Yeah. Why was that something that you were attracted to?

Speaker 3:
[31:51] So I had had little moments in movies where I had an action scene. You know, it was like stunt people would come in and it would be like, oh, we're going to like, there was like a big fight scene that I had in Two Days in the Valley, my first movie that I ever did. But I made the connection pretty quickly to my dance career. And the thing that my mom said was, in that moment became very clear to me, the fact that I am, I'm a natural storyteller, and if I have to do it through my body, I'll do it through my body. If I can do it through my mouth, I'll do it through my mouth. And I had missed telling story through my body.

Speaker 2:
[32:28] You know, you said in a recent interview, I have surgery after every movie. You said you wanted to get to the fun stuff. And so I just have to bring this up before we talk a little bit more about this, because I actually looked into it.

Speaker 3:
[32:45] Oh, boy.

Speaker 2:
[32:45] Our whole team did. And we were just, we went down a rabbit hole. After this new movie, Apex, you got elbow surgery.

Speaker 3:
[32:53] Yeah, two elbow, a revision. Yeah, one and a revision surgery.

Speaker 2:
[32:57] You also fractured a toe. Please fill me in on the stuff that we've missed. While making The Old Guard, you filmed through injuries and got three surgeries on your left arm afterwards. Yeah. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Making Atomic Blonde, you cracked two teeth and got root canals.

Speaker 3:
[33:13] Yeah, my teeth were replaced fully. Fully? I have all my own teeth, even though some people don't believe that. I took care of my teeth. Two in the back, they had to remove them. They were so crushed.

Speaker 2:
[33:29] I'll also say that one of the ones that I left off is that you spent five days in the hospital after laughing too hard watching Borat. I didn't quite understand. Was that like a hernia that you got?

Speaker 3:
[33:40] I had herniated a disc in my neck making a movie. I landed on my neck and it was a really severe injury. I was moments away from being paralyzed. It was actually that bad. I landed on a concrete floor on my neck.

Speaker 2:
[33:54] What movie was this?

Speaker 3:
[33:55] On Ion Flux. Oh, God. They had to shut the movie down and I had an injury that everybody was hoping my body could heal. I was on bed rest and doing PT. But they were hoping that the disc, I was young enough and the disc is really soft up there, that my body would absorb it. And so they didn't want to just do surgery straight away. And I think it was a big mistake because I suffered for eight years and had chronic pain, chronic pain. And my neck was, that disc sat so close to all of my nerves that if I did anything wrong with it, anything it didn't like, it would just sit on nerves and I would just be locked, locked for weeks. And I lived my life like that for eight years. And so the Borat thing is funny because I laughed so hard that I locked, I locked that disc into the nerves. And it was actually really bad. I had to like-

Speaker 2:
[34:51] I was supposed to say, it's not a funny story. That's a horrible story.

Speaker 3:
[34:53] It's a funny story now. I mean, we still laugh about it. But I had to like get flown, like on a private plane that night and came back to LA. And, and when I had my first baby, I just said to the doctor, I want to have the surgery because I just don't want to live in this place where I have a child and I can't pick her up because my neck is out. And so I kind of like, it was the best thing I ever did.

Speaker 2:
[35:19] I know a lot of people who've lived with chronic pain and it's really debilitating and really hard to think about anything else. What was it like for you?

Speaker 3:
[35:30] It was horrible. It's horrible. It's this constant fear of like, I don't know if I should do that. And I'm like in the prime of my life. And then it became so acute, like I would just get out of the shower and reach for a towel and it would lock and I would be in bed for five days, not being able to move. I think I was so worn down by the end of the eight years that if they weren't going to do it, I was going to like go to a country and get it done where they would allow it to happen. I was that desperate. I was also, you know, I shared with my doctor because I was on a lot of opioids and things like that.

Speaker 2:
[36:05] I was about to ask.

Speaker 3:
[36:06] And you would think with my dad as well, like the worry of addiction, saying, God, I don't have an issue with addiction and that I didn't become addicted to them. But I think back now and I just go like that was just so irresponsible in a weird way with myself. The fact that I was just thinking I can kind of, I would be able to control this somehow.

Speaker 2:
[36:32] You know, if that were my reality, I would then probably not want to throw myself and become an action star. I would want to protect myself from injury and those kinds of issues. Why do you think you went in the opposite direction?

Speaker 3:
[36:49] I think I wasn't going to let anything take away from my life. There's a spirit about me that, and I think some of it maybe has to do with the fact that I experienced so much death early on. I'm very aware that time runs out really quickly and that time can run out as soon as I walk out of this building. You can cross the street and it's done. I'm so hyper aware of that. I live my life every single day like that. If I lay in bed one day, I'm missing a day in my life. But I was never going to be, I didn't want to live like a safe life because of that. I mean, I do live a very safe life. I'm not a reckless person. I think people think I am, but I'm not a reckless. I get scared. I'm not reckless. But I don't want to, I want to, if I get to be on my deathbed one day, I want to say I did everything that I really wanted to do.

Speaker 2:
[37:42] Let's talk about Apex.

Speaker 3:
[37:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:44] I can see you're getting teary.

Speaker 3:
[37:46] No, I'm not. I don't know what you're talking about. Let's talk about Apex.

Speaker 2:
[37:49] Actually, before I move on, what made you emotional?

Speaker 3:
[37:54] Because life is so valuable. I think life is so beautiful. Stop it. No, this is not in the interview. You are not putting this in the interview. It's so sappy and stupid.

Speaker 2:
[38:08] It's not.

Speaker 3:
[38:08] It's so stupid. It's really stupid.

Speaker 2:
[38:12] But I feel like I'm getting the real you, which is the person who still doesn't want to be in touch with their emotions.

Speaker 3:
[38:19] It's so funny because people are always like, they think I'm a tough bitch. I think a lot of people think I'm very cold because I come across as self-sufficient. I can take care of myself. I don't need, and I'm also, I'm sometimes a little brash. I think people take that as, she's so tough, she's so cold, and it's the complete opposite. My kids are so embarrassed by me because I will cry at the drop of a hat. My kids are always like, stop crying. So I have access and I think it's not to be like, but I think it's why I'm okay at acting. I can go to those places very easily. As you can tell, I have an ability to really feel deeply. Sometimes it's not nice, but it works for my job, and it works in my life. I really appreciate, I do appreciate things, and I'm not perfect at that every day, but I aim for that definitely.

Speaker 2:
[39:22] Okay, we keep on losing, going in a different direction, which I have enjoyed, but I want to talk about the movie. In this new movie, you play a mountain climber who ends up being chased through the Australian jungle.

Speaker 3:
[39:34] Rock climber.

Speaker 2:
[39:35] Rock climber.

Speaker 3:
[39:36] Do your research.

Speaker 2:
[39:37] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[39:38] Seriously.

Speaker 2:
[39:38] Oh my God. But I'm wondering about the mental challenges of doing movies like that. What are they for you? Because it's not just a physical game, it's a mental game.

Speaker 3:
[39:48] Dance. Dance is probably one of the hardest things I ever did. Dancers are super heroes. What dancers put their bodies through in complete silence.

Speaker 2:
[40:02] Sorry, Timothy Chalamet.

Speaker 3:
[40:04] Oh boy. I hope I run into him one day. Yeah, I feel like that was a very reckless comment. On an art form, two art forms, that we need to lift up constantly, because yes, they do have a hard time. But in about 10 years, I think AI is going to be able to do Timothy's job, but it will not be able to replace a person on a stage dancing live. And we shouldn't shit on other art forms. How about we start with that? I think that it's one of the most disciplined things that I've ever done. It taught me discipline. It taught me structure. It taught me hard work. It taught me to be tough. It's borderline abusive. You know, I mean, I remember having to dance with... I had so... there were several times that I had blood infections from blisters that just never healed. And you don't get a day off. I mean, I'm literally talking about bleeding through your shoes. And that's something that you have to, like, practice every single day. You practice it every single day if you're a dancer at that level.

Speaker 2:
[41:06] You mean you practice the mindset of it? The mindset of just working through it.

Speaker 3:
[41:10] You don't give up, and there's no other option. Like, you're going. You keep going.

Speaker 2:
[41:15] I was just wondering what you think about being a woman in an action role, because in this particular film, the tension doesn't only come from the thrills, and I don't want to give too much away, and you and sort of physical extremes. It also comes through you as a woman feeling threatened, as many women feel threatened, by the circumstances around you, whether they're men who are actually wishing you ill, or is a wild animal going to come and overpower you. Do you think female action heroes get dramatic tension or need to get dramatic tension from other sources than men?

Speaker 3:
[41:54] For sure, yeah. I think it's hard for some men to understand that when we go down into a parking garage, it's one of the most fright, I mean, for me it is, like especially at night. Like, I get like a horrible feeling in like one of those like deep parking garages, and underground parking lots. I mean, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder and then I'm trying to get into my car as quick as possible. I don't know how many men think about that. We just have a different mindset for sure. I think we have to. And that's what makes us interesting. And that's what makes us, I think, interesting action stars or action subjects. You know, I think we attack action differently. You know, we can't fight like men, but that doesn't mean we can't fight. So, our tagline on Atomic Blonde was always fight like a girl. Because that's good. That's good. Fight like a girl. It's different. I don't ever aspire to go into these movies trying to like outdo, you know, the male counterpart. Like, I was sitting opposite Taron, and I was like, he was working out. So, I was like, there's no way. You would totally overpower me. This is your co-star. Exactly, Taron Edgerton. I was like, he would totally overpower me. So, we have to like figure out other things. Like, maybe under certain circumstances, by element of surprise, I could do it. But I'm a bit of a... A stigler for reality, like when I make movies. Like, I wanna know that you can really do something. Like, I'm always kind of like on everybody's back. Like, can that happen? But what would happen? I wanna see that happen because I don't believe that. Because I love movies because I believe it. Like, I wanna go in there and believe it. So, I like kind of attacking action movies in that sense that I wanna make something that feels very realistic. I'm not playing superheroes.

Speaker 2:
[43:48] In 2017, I interviewed David Leach, who directed You and Atomic Blonde. And something he said to me was that, indeed, it's different to fight as a woman. And he is obviously someone whose background is in being a stunt man. And he said it's not about punching with brute force, but it's about using leverage. It's just a different way to engage in physical conflict. Can you fight in real life? Are you someone who now feels like you could take someone down?

Speaker 3:
[44:19] I mean, how many times do we think about that, Lulu? Like, I don't think about, can I take people down? But I always think-

Speaker 2:
[44:25] I do if I'm in a dark parking lot.

Speaker 3:
[44:27] So there's that part of my brain that always-

Speaker 2:
[44:29] You're defending yourself.

Speaker 3:
[44:30] Yes, and I also think, just given my history, I'm hyper aware of those things. Little things like fight with your elbows. Oh, weirdly, see, that's maybe why my elbows are so busted. We're getting to some stuff here. But in general, we have a lot of force in our elbows, and we can swing really hard from our elbows, not so much from our wrists. So, you know, coming forward with your finger, yeah, but this is a full force arm move, and it can take somebody down if you hit it in the right way. I feel like I'm scrappy. I'm scrappy, and I'm a survivor, and I feel like sometimes that's the thing that sets you apart from actual skill. You know, I think there are people that would probably take somebody down way better than I can, but if my life depended on it, I'm going to bet on me.

Speaker 2:
[45:25] All right, well, we're going to speak again, but thank you for your honesty and also for engaging with me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3:
[45:33] Oh my gosh, you're so welcome. And talk to you soon.

Speaker 2:
[45:39] After the break, I talked to Charlize again.

Speaker 3:
[45:42] I do worry sometimes that I love having conversation, and then, you know, I go home and I'm like, oh, I shared too much. I didn't have to go into that detail. Why did I say that?

Speaker 4:
[46:08] This podcast is supported by Nurtek ODT Remedjipant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtek. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtek can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtek is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtek ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NURTEK or visit nurtek.com. All right, back to your podcast.

Speaker 5:
[47:07] I'm Dane Bruegler. I cover the NFL Draft for The Athletic. Our draft guide picked up the name, The Beast, because of the crazy amount of information that's included. I'm looking at thousands of players, putting together hundreds of scouting reports. I've been covering this year's draft since last year's draft. There is a lot in The Beast that you simply can't find anywhere else. This is the kind of in-depth, unique journalism you get from The Athletic and The New York Times. You can subscribe at nytimes.com/subscribe.

Speaker 4:
[47:47] Hi.

Speaker 3:
[47:48] Hi.

Speaker 2:
[47:49] I was thinking about everything that we've talked about in our first conversation about the independence that you found at an early age, and then the tough characters you've played, and the physical challenges that you've taken on to play them. And I know from other interviews that you've given that you've really not wanted your story to ever be distilled to its most simplistic version, and I really don't want to do that here. So I'm wondering, when you think about your career, what connections have you made between your life and the choices that you've made and your career at large?

Speaker 3:
[48:22] First of all, thank you for saying that. I think it's like, I do worry sometimes that I love having conversation. And then, you know, I go home and I'm like, oh, I shared too much. I didn't have to go into that detail. Why did I say that?

Speaker 2:
[48:38] The stakes are really high for someone like you. I get it.

Speaker 3:
[48:42] I appreciate you saying that. I feel like when we were talking, I was thinking about this yesterday, when we were talking, and by the way, your conversation is so natural. So I want to thank you for that too. And it made me think about things that I haven't thought about in a while. But I had a thought that I don't feel like we talked about. And that is that, you know, the opposite is so true of my life and of South Africa, the country that I grew up in. And I think we covered the hardship, but I really truly feel blessed that I came from there, that I was born there, that I have that soil and my bones. I feel like I'm from there. I feel like I share something with the people of South Africa. And the reason I do is because they're the most resilient, beautiful people that you will ever meet. And they've been through all this hardship, but they have literally come out on the other side with hope. And it's when I go there, that's the most incredible thing to see. Yes, there are a lot of things that need to get fixed. But the heart of that country is so unbelievably beautiful on every level. It's truly the most beautiful country that I've ever been to, and I've been lucky enough to travel a lot. And it's a place filled with joy. And so I just wanted to kind of talk a little bit about that because that is such an important part of the one side that we covered yesterday. It's not all doom and gloom, you know?

Speaker 2:
[50:11] We got into a place. Sometimes that's the way it goes.

Speaker 3:
[50:15] But that's why this is good, because you kind of get to reflect, right? And that doesn't happen usually in interviews. So I'm grateful for that.

Speaker 2:
[50:25] So I know in our first interview, we talked a lot about your personal life. So I want to talk about some of your work. You founded a production company in 2003, and that was long before female actors at least were sort of doing that, were taking that kind of ownership. Why did you think it was important to have that kind of power behind the scenes too?

Speaker 3:
[50:49] You know, I've reflected on this a lot. I think I've always kind of jumped to a simple answer, which was I wanted to produce. Felt like I was interested in moviemaking, like the whole thing, the whole part of it. The development part of it, and that is true. But, you know, if I had to be really honest, I feel like there was a constant fear that I didn't have control over my own work. And especially when you're young. It happened when I made Monster. I remember the people who financed it, just thinking we were making such a different movie, and they were really upset with us, with me and Patty Jenkins. And I think that if we didn't have any kind of producing power over that movie, it would have been a completely different movie. It would not have been the movie that Monster is today. And it made me realize that it is good to sometimes have a little bit of that control, where you can say, listen, we start this road together, and we're going to finish this road together. But we told you what road we're going on when we started, and standing up for that, and being able to protect that.

Speaker 2:
[52:03] It's funny because when you made Monster, you and Patty Jenkins, and it's obviously a very pivotal part of your own story, of how you had this vision and really created it. But there is something about it was you and another woman who did that. So when I'm hearing you say it wouldn't have been made in the same way, what do you mean exactly?

Speaker 3:
[52:22] I think, I'm assuming here obviously, a lot of these people are not around anymore and can't speak for themselves. The feeling that I got and Patty and I discussed was that I think they thought that they were gonna get some kind of a more of a sexy version with me and Christina Ricci. I think they were really leaning on kind of that relationship part. And I think they were not expecting, and I honestly don't think they had done a lot of research on Eileen. I think they read the script. I was attached, and they just kind of said yes to financing it. But if you really do your research, it's pretty, you don't have to explain it. You can look at all the documentaries out there on her. And why would you not try and kind of go for the truth? I don't know if they thought that I would just kind of be me. Maybe, because I'd never done anything like that. So I think that was maybe another part too. They didn't think I was gonna do the full transformation. I remember when I started gaining weight and we went to one of the producers threw a party for us and we went to his house and I very kind of like, just jokingly, I was like, oh my God, I have a doughnut. And I was like squishing my stomach and showing this lady in front of me. And it turned out it was his wife. And I just remember her face and she was like, I'm not gonna say the guy's name, but she was like, John, you should come see this. This kind of concern just came over her. And I think that was maybe the first sign. But when they started seeing The First Dailies, I remember they were just like, you don't look that great, you're not smiling, you're not friendly. I mean, it was evident that they really were not very happy with the movie that we were making.

Speaker 2:
[54:08] I mean, some of your most well-known roles are about transforming into real people, monster, it run you an Oscar, and then you also played Megyn Kelly in the movie Bombshell, and you were nominated for that role too. What is the difference between creating a character versus playing someone who already exists in the world?

Speaker 3:
[54:28] It's such a good question because I don't know if I have the answer yet. I feel I don't know how to play Eileen without looking like Eileen. I don't think I'm the actor that you should hire for that. I also don't think I'm the actor you should put in Bombshell to play Megyn Kelly, because if I looked like this, like me, and maybe attempted her cadence, I don't know what that is. I would look at the monitor and just feel like it's missing, like something is wrong. I don't know how to do it. So I think it's like a necessity for me. Now, when I play non-fictional characters, I don't have to obey by that. But there are moments where you read something and you feel like there's a physicality that you think is maybe necessary. You talk to your director, you start thinking about things that can help you not be you. I'm always trying to just not look like I'm crossing a street like me. I'm making a movie, I'm always like, am I opening this door and is it like Charlize is showing up? It's hard. I've made many movies, people know who I am, and you don't want to start overusing it in a way where it feels like you're just becoming caricatures. So, it takes a lot of thought and a lot of collaboration to figure out what that is, what the balance is and that's why I started. I don't really truly know the answer yet.

Speaker 2:
[56:09] I've talked to actors and they sometimes say that there's a little key that unlocks something for them, whether it's putting on a wig or figuring out the way they walk, or just something that opens up a character. Do you have something like that for you?

Speaker 3:
[56:24] For me, I wish I could reshoot the first three weeks of every movie I make.

Speaker 2:
[56:31] Is that true?

Speaker 3:
[56:32] Yes. I feel like the first three weeks, I am scared, I'm still thinking, I'm overthinking, I'm doing it and it passes, but I'm not in that flow that your actors talk about or athletes, that moment where you're not thinking about anything, you're just in it. Yeah, three weeks, that's usually, so I tried to shoot stupid things for as long as I can. Then you just have to put your big girl panties on and do it.

Speaker 2:
[57:05] Speaking of big girl panties, Mad Max Fury Road is of course one of your most well-known roles. It was famously grueling to film. My colleague, Kyle Buchanan, wrote an oral history of the movie that brought to light how tough the set was, the filming conditions, the dynamics with your co-star, Tom Hardy, the director George Miller. But one of the things that I found most interesting was how you described your relationship with the female actors on the set, including Riley Keough and Zoe Kravitz. You said in that interview that they turned to you as someone who could problem solve for them. I'm wondering what that kind of looked like.

Speaker 3:
[57:43] It was tough. It's an environment that's really hard. We were in a desert for six months, and I think mentally, it really challenged all of us. It really did. These poor girls were wearing bandages, and it was so cold. I remember Abby Lee one day just turning blue, and I was with the rig was just driving, and I was like, stop, everybody stop. And trying to take some of my, I think I tried to take my pants off or something to put pants on her at least. Things like that, that I think was just kind of, I had just become a mom. My first kid was I think two months old, and I think I was just in hyper mom's day too. I loved all of those girls, and I felt like I was somewhat responsible for them, because I was of another generation, and I knew what it was like to sometimes not feel like you had a voice. I also want to add, they were all bad bitches. Honestly, they were really strong, capable girls. They were not wallflowers. So I just want to say that as well. They didn't need saving.

Speaker 2:
[58:59] All right. Last few questions. Looking ahead, you're going to be in the next Christopher Nolan film, The Odyssey.

Speaker 3:
[59:07] I was literally on that movie for like four breaths. It was so quick. But they were amazing breaths. To have Chris Nolan say, I would like to meet you for my next movie is like, do we even need to meet? Because I'm in, like whatever it is, I'll do it. And yeah, I just spent like the last five days with him and it was tremendous, really, really tremendous to just kind of see a director of that caliber work. And also to see my friend, Matt Damon, like have this part. It's like the part of a lifetime and what he put himself through and how hard he worked. So it was a lovely five days.

Speaker 2:
[59:48] You're going to be playing the witch, Cersei. I mean, what can we expect?

Speaker 3:
[59:52] I don't play her.

Speaker 2:
[59:53] You don't? What do you play?

Speaker 3:
[59:54] I just gave you some insight. I'm not going to tell you, but I there you have insight now, you know, that it's not her. Everybody thinks it's her, but it's not.

Speaker 2:
[60:02] Everyone thinks it's her. Oh my goodness. Okay. Any injuries though on the set? No?

Speaker 3:
[60:08] No, no injuries. No, I came out alive and well, yes.

Speaker 2:
[60:14] All right. Charlize Theron, thank you so much. This has been, it's been wonderful.

Speaker 3:
[60:20] Thank you. The same here. It's definitely been wonderful. It's very rare to have conversations like this. So thank you.

Speaker 2:
[60:34] That's Charlize Theron. Apex starts streaming on Netflix April 24th. To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/atsymbol, the interview podcast. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Alison Benedict, mixing by Sophia Landman, original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetube and Marian Lozano, photography by Devin Yelkin. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orm, Paula Newdorf, Joe Bill Munoz, Amy Marino, Kathleen O'Brien and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Next week, David talks with actor and comedian Bob Odenkirk. Anybody should write their memoir when they get around 50.

Speaker 3:
[61:18] And you may see what I saw.

Speaker 2:
[61:21] We're like, this guy's like a, and we all are, but this guy's like a broken toy. I'm Lulu Garcia-Navarro and this is The Interview from The New York Times.