transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hey, want a cookie?

Speaker 2:
[00:02] Oh, I know you just ate, so you're craving something a little sweet.

Speaker 3:
[00:06] Besides, one cookie isn't gonna kill you.

Speaker 2:
[00:09] How about half?

Speaker 1:
[00:10] Just a bite?

Speaker 2:
[00:11] Bite it, bite it, bite it.

Speaker 1:
[00:15] Food noise isn't fair, but Mochi Health is. Your affordable GLP-1 source that puts you on a path to successful weight loss by quieting food noise. Bite it! Learn more at joinmochi.com. Mochi members have access to licensed physicians and nutritionists.

Speaker 3:
[00:30] My name is Mackenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a non-verbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed, we had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.

Speaker 2:
[01:17] GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com. That's gofundme.com, gofundme.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe.

Speaker 4:
[01:45] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder Express.

Speaker 5:
[01:49] Yay and choo-choo!

Speaker 4:
[01:52] Yay, indeed, Jimmie. Yay, indeed. My name is James Pietragallo. I'm here with my co-host.

Speaker 5:
[01:56] I'm Jimmie Whisman.

Speaker 4:
[01:58] Thank you folks so much for joining us on another crazy, wild adventure known as Roller Coaster, known as Small Town Murder Express. And this one, this episode, oh man, this thing, you're going along on the coaster, and it's just gonna take a hard turn on you, where you're like, where did that come from? It's a crazy episode. Can't wait to get into it. Wild stuff. So all aboard the murder train, leaving the station. Let's get into this here. Thank you so much for joining us. Definitely before we start, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows. Also your merchandise too. Everything from skateboards to shower curtains there, but get your tickets for live shows, next live shows with tickets available here. May 2nd in Denver, get those before they're gone, because they're almost gone, and then May 30th in Royal Oak, Michigan, those are really almost gone. There's under 100 tickets left, so definitely get your tickets for that one. Come out and see us, and then after that, in September, we're in Milwaukee and Minneapolis, we're in Dallas, San Jose and Sacramento in October, and then November, Terrytown and Boston. So come out and see us, and come to a live show, because it's not a lecture, it's a comedy show. We have pictures and jokes, and you're going to leave holding your sides. So definitely do that, come out and see us. Absolutely. Shut up and give me murder.com. Also get Patreon, for the love of God, get Patreon. patreon.com/crime In Sports, which is the name of our other show that you should listen to, by the way, because it's very funny, and also your stupid opinions you need to check out. But patreon.com/crime In Sports, that's where all the good stuff is. Well, this is all good stuff, but that's where more good stuff is. Anybody $5 a month or above, we're going to get everything we put out. As soon as you subscribe, you get hundreds of backbonus episodes you've never heard before, over 300. Then you get new ones every other week, one Crime In Sports, one Small Town Murder, and you get it all. Wow. This week, no different. This week for Crime In Sports, we're going to talk about this crazy, it was supposed to be a good thing. It was in California, this program for like inner city kids to help them do sports and all this. And it turned into exactly what you're going to imagine. It turned into a complete mess and kind of a weird cult of strangeness. It's real weird stuff. Then for Small Town Murder, Corey Richins, part 2. The Utah mother who murdered her husband, then wrote a book about grieving for her kids about it, which is, and that's the least egregious thing she did. It's crazy, all the stuff she did.

Speaker 5:
[04:26] Kind of a bad mom.

Speaker 4:
[04:28] A bad everything. She's awful. patreon.com/crime In Sports. In addition to that, you also get everything we put out, Crime In Sports, Your Stupid Opinions and Small Town Murder, all ad free with your Patreon. No ads. And then on top of that, you get a shout out at the end of the regular show where Jimmie will mispronounce your name, even though, believe me, he'd love to get it correct. Trust me. He takes great pride in it when he does nail one. So that said, I think it's time, everybody, to sit back. What do you say here? Let's all clear the lungs. There we go. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? Yeah. Let's do it. We're going to Vermont this week. We were in New Hampshire for the Express last week, so we're sticking up in the foresty region over here, in the maple syrup region of America here. This is St. Albans, Vermont, A-L-B-A-N-S, which made it extremely confusing because there is a St. Albans, the town, and then there's St. Albans City, they call it, which is just—picture if you had a dollar bill. That's St. Albans town, okay? Now picture if you put a nickel in the middle of the dollar bill. That would be St. Albans City. Perfect. So it's very confusing, and I had to find out the address of where this happened to find out which part of St. Albans it was in. It's a mess. So it was a really hard thing to do here. This is in northwestern Vermont. It's all up by Canada. It's up there. About an hour and a half to Montreal, so pretty close to that. Oh, it's right there, yeah. Right there. About a half hour to Burlington, Vermont, and about two and a half hours to our last Vermont episode, which was Grafton, Vermont, episode 642, exactly 50 episodes ago. And that was called the Murder Blame Game. That was when these guys killed someone and then showed back up at the scene of the crime to do something else with the body, and there was already police there, and already a crime scene set up. Perfect. And then they had to blame each other because they didn't know what to do. That was a fun one. This is in Franklin County, area code 802, population here 6,866. And I think that's in all of the St. Ollivans, town and city, I think that's all together. Median household income here is low. Normally, rest of the country, it's about 69,000. Here, $49,063. Not great. That's scraping.

Speaker 5:
[07:00] Nothing costs shit up there, though.

Speaker 4:
[07:02] Well, median home cost, $298,100.

Speaker 5:
[07:05] What?

Speaker 4:
[07:06] Yeah, it's a rough livin. That's tough. That's a rough goin there. Nickname of this town, the Railroad City of Vermont. Make of that what it is. I don't believe it. I'll talk about where that came from. A little bit of history. It was named after St. Albans, England, which is in Hertfordshire. It was first settled during the Revolution by Jesse Weldon. The war delayed further settlement, but then after the Revolutionary War, people started showing up from around New England because they had rich soil, good for cultivation and cold as. Cold as fuck. Also, they raised cattle, horses and sheep. A lot of butter and cheese came out of this area.

Speaker 5:
[07:47] Really?

Speaker 4:
[07:48] Tons of butter and cheese. I know Vermont still does a lot of cheese.

Speaker 5:
[07:50] Yeah, they love cheese. Yeah, Vermont's better.

Speaker 4:
[07:52] They love their cheese, yeah. St. Albans also became known as the Rail City because it was home to a major depot, operation center, and a repair shop for Vermont and Canada Railroads. This was kind of like a hub for them.

Speaker 5:
[08:06] And the repairs.

Speaker 4:
[08:07] That's, yep. The northernmost battle of the Civil War was here. Well, engagement. It wasn't a full-on battle, but it was known as the St. Albans Raid and it was in 1864. In 1902, they finally incorporated the city of St. Albans, which is two square miles inside of the town of St. Albans. Today, it's a big, people like to go there to see the old school houses. They have Victorian and Craftsman houses there and all that kind of thing. So it's a big deal and a lot of trains still pass through here. Also, home was, for a minute here, home to the Vermont Voltage.

Speaker 5:
[08:43] What is that?

Speaker 4:
[08:43] Which was a semi-professional men's soccer team.

Speaker 5:
[08:46] A soccer team.

Speaker 4:
[08:47] Many men.

Speaker 5:
[08:48] All the way up there.

Speaker 4:
[08:49] All the way up there. They folded in 2014, unsurprisingly. So that said, reviews of this town, we've never been here. We know nothing about it. So let's check it out. It only has 3.2 stars on Mitch. That's not great.

Speaker 5:
[09:01] The whole place.

Speaker 4:
[09:01] The whole place. And there's zero 5-star reviews, which is...

Speaker 5:
[09:05] Really?

Speaker 4:
[09:05] Yeah. People like it, but not that much.

Speaker 5:
[09:08] They like it. Nobody loves it.

Speaker 4:
[09:09] We're just going to be friends, though.

Speaker 5:
[09:11] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[09:12] Like you, but not that way. Here's 4 stars. Overall, a very quiet town. I assume they mean quiet.

Speaker 5:
[09:18] Quiet.

Speaker 4:
[09:19] Quite town. Well known for maple syrup. No shit. Not a whole lot to do unless you're willing to drive to the bigger cities, you know, like Burlington, where all the action goes on. The trees and mountains are beautiful in the fall, great snowboarding and skiing locations.

Speaker 5:
[09:35] I believe that.

Speaker 4:
[09:36] As you would imagine. 3 stars. It needs a lot of work. They're judging it like it's like an 84 Toyota Celica. They're like, I mean, yeah, it's a good price, but it needs a lot of work.

Speaker 5:
[09:46] AC blows warm. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[09:48] It blows warm. It's, yeah, it's got a, it's got a problem there. And the wheel well, it doesn't work.

Speaker 5:
[09:53] It needs a recharge, but the compressor doesn't take the new gas.

Speaker 4:
[09:57] It's not doing it. I believe the city and town need a bigger police force with a greater presence to help reduce the drug-related crime in the area. Yeah, they have a, it's maple syrup-flavored fentanyl is a big deal here. They really will shit up. Due to a lack of police presence, drug deals take place out in the open with little discretion. Ah! There's no cops. Just waving bags of powder around. And the people involved can be very threatening to those around. Yeah, drug dealers, drug users. Here's one star. St. Albans City School is all caps worst school ever! Re-exclamation points. Now, you'd imagine this is probably from like an eighth grader or something. No, this is an adult who wrote that.

Speaker 5:
[10:42] It's apparent.

Speaker 4:
[10:43] Apparent. My children were bullied. My child with a learning disability was ignored. Parents illegally parked in the no parking zones and entered the building unsafely through the classroom emergency exit doors for years.

Speaker 5:
[10:56] For years!

Speaker 4:
[10:58] Parents illegally parked in the front of the no parking zones, blocking the entire road causing illegal wrong way driving, forcing homeowners off the road into other homeowners' lawns. Okay, they're making it sound like it's like a police chase from a 70s movie, like the Blues Brothers police chase. This is ridiculous.

Speaker 5:
[11:17] Every day, 730 to 8 is Bedlam.

Speaker 4:
[11:20] But just people on the lawns, people diving out of their own lawn chairs to get out of the way of cars that are barreling at them from other from the street. Wow, this is crazy. So they're driving onto lawns. So to avoid being struck by aggressive wrong way drivers, they don't have a resource officer at this school direct in traffic. I'm going to go just by the histrionics of the worst school ever. I think this person is just I think they're a little much. They're the person yelling at people for where they park. And it's like, shut up. Just shut up and get your kid to go home. Yeah, worry about you and your kid. Yeah, worry about your kid being bullied and your kid with a learning disability ignored because you were done with that in the first two sentences and on to all the parking violations, the egregious parking that goes on here. Things to do. The Vermont Maple Festival takes place here. I wonder how many of those there are. A new event this year, the Poetry Contest.

Speaker 5:
[12:18] Oh, contest?

Speaker 4:
[12:19] If you write poetry about maple syrup, this is the festival for you.

Speaker 5:
[12:24] Who the is judging that?

Speaker 4:
[12:26] Who knows? There's a Best Maple Menu Contest, a Creative Chainsaw Art Exhibit, I like that. a Pancake Breakfast, that seems like it. Yeah, all the time. A Sappy Art Show, it's called like SAP. A Kids Entertainment Zone, which we'll talk about. Opening Ceremonies, Information Booth, Main Street Stage, which we'll get to. Maple Beverage Tasting, St. Albans Museum, The Fiddler's Variety Show, a Maple Cooking Contest, a Maple Syrup Contest.

Speaker 5:
[13:01] But isn't it the Cooking Contest?

Speaker 4:
[13:03] Nope. This is who makes the best maple syrup. This is other shit. It was making maple-flavored things. It's got a picture of a cake up there. The Maple Ambassador Contest. Wow.

Speaker 5:
[13:15] Contest.

Speaker 4:
[13:15] Contest and the Youth Talent Show. All right. For entertainment, this is the Kids Entertainment here. We have Rockin Ron the Friendly Pirate.

Speaker 5:
[13:25] Oh, boy. Get away from my kids.

Speaker 4:
[13:27] Who looks like the Wiggles when they do that shit. That's back in the day. And then Pip Squeak the Clown in Taylor Park. This looks to be a middle-aged woman who's a clown, for whatever that's worth. And also Jason Tardy Productions.

Speaker 5:
[13:43] What is that?

Speaker 4:
[13:44] I don't know if he's a little late or a little slow, but he's something here.

Speaker 5:
[13:48] Showing up 10 minutes late.

Speaker 4:
[13:50] Says he's a multi-faceted performer who uses his strength. He juggles three 10-pound bowling balls. Intelligence, skipped a year of high school and was valedictorian. And Endurance, two-time 100-mile ultramarathon finisher. And Skill, he has no social life, so he practices a lot. To create a crazy high-energy comedy and juggling show like you've never seen before. You know, annoying.

Speaker 5:
[14:16] Smarter than your average sophomore, though, James.

Speaker 4:
[14:19] Yeah. You know he wears one of those headset Bobby Brown deals, too, while he does it and he makes stupid jokes.

Speaker 5:
[14:25] The asshole microphone.

Speaker 4:
[14:27] This hilarious show includes innovative choreographed juggling to upbeat music, fitting his body through a tennis racket, balancing a ladder on his face, standing on a yoga ball, and if you trust him enough, fire-eating and fire-breathing.

Speaker 5:
[14:42] Right.

Speaker 4:
[14:42] I would like to see him eat fire, for real.

Speaker 5:
[14:45] I trust him to eat it. I'm not eating it, so what the fuck do I got to trust him for?

Speaker 4:
[14:49] Stick it all the way down. I don't care.

Speaker 5:
[14:51] Go nuts, fucker.

Speaker 4:
[14:52] Drink a lot of gas first. Make sure. You got to really coat the esophagus with gas before this will work, right? That said, let's talk about some murder, shall we? All right. This is a crazy, crazy, crazy story that will end up not at all where you think it's going to end up. Uh-oh. It's one of those weird ones that's just only Small Town Murder Express here. Okay. This, we have to start in 2013. So not very long ago. I mean, everything's basically the same. You have the same phone in your pocket, different operating system. You're on Instagram, you're on Facebook. It's just maybe TikTok doesn't exist. Other than that, same world. Matthew Webster, let's talk about, goes by Matt, old Matt Webster, Mattie Webweb. He's born August 7th, 1983. Now, yeah, pretty young at this point. 30 years old in 2013. Long history of mental health and drug problems, which is a bad combination.

Speaker 5:
[15:52] Yeah, you can't, no, you can't treat that with that.

Speaker 4:
[15:55] A lot of times people have mental health problems, they self-medicate, and then that just makes it worse. You have exacerbates.

Speaker 5:
[16:01] You can't treat schizophrenia with cocaine.

Speaker 4:
[16:03] No, it doesn't work. It just makes it worse, for Christ's sake, and a lot of things. Now, he's got a wife as of 2013 named Danielle, and she's a big part of this we'll talk about. And they live in Swanton, which is about 15 minutes outside of St. Albans, okay? Now, he's got some issues. He's being treated for depression, Matt is, and chronic anxiety, among, as his wife put it in a court filing, quote, so many other things.

Speaker 5:
[16:30] So many other things.

Speaker 4:
[16:31] So many. Those are just tip of the iceberg, but he's got a lot below the surface of the water here.

Speaker 5:
[16:36] Those are the two big ones that most people are treated for. He's got a lot more.

Speaker 4:
[16:41] He's got a lot more. He abused prescription medication, including oxycodone and methadone. Also, clonopin, which he also gets as well, which is anxiety medication. The methadone's got to be for an opiate addiction there. Then oxycodone is for, quote, hate management. But it's just going to basically continue. That's the problem what I hear a lot always is methadone. Methadone is one of those things where it's to manage, for the most part. If someone's a junkie and they're about to die and they're in the streets and they're shooting up all the time and the veins are fucking rotted out and all that, you put that person on methadone because they're never going to get off the methadone, probably, but they're going to be better than sleeping in an alley.

Speaker 5:
[17:31] Standing up on the bus, any of those.

Speaker 4:
[17:34] For most people, it just lets them stabilize so they can get their shit together to make another run at being a junkie is the problem. It's a tough thing and most people on methadone too tend to chip on the side. They'll get their methadone, but then they get pills, they get a heroin, they chip on the side, they do a little bit.

Speaker 5:
[17:56] I mean, Subutex is another one that's like that, but it's just a dissolvable that goes under your tongue and it kind of, it's a similar thing. But yeah, that's, I mean, a lot of the guys that are on that shit are still doing it.

Speaker 4:
[18:08] They definitely chip. Now, he snorts his pills also, which will make him, you know, shows he's a little more into them. His wife Danielle also said that he deals with pancreatitis, chronic anxiety, high blood pressure as well, and said that her husband's family members, Matt's family members, have a history of suicide attempts, and that Matt has talked about committing suicide and has, quote, gotten prepared for it, as he put it. So that's what's going on here.

Speaker 5:
[18:38] When he got prepared for it, did he financially get prepared for it or just in his head? He's just ready for it, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[18:45] Mentally knowing that this is going to go down at some point.

Speaker 5:
[18:47] Oh, boy.

Speaker 4:
[18:48] Now Matt's wife said he would leave his guns out and research ways to commit suicide online. And he did that for years, but it's been a few years since that issue came up. So from, in terms of 2013, he hadn't really brought up suicide in a while. He hasn't really been that suicidal, but years before that he was.

Speaker 5:
[19:09] Mentally unwell gun owner. Nice.

Speaker 4:
[19:11] Perfect. Guns-a, and he'd lay them out, which is perfect here. Yeah. And also he's on a bunch of drugs, which is what I really want. People to have as many guns as possible. While they're fucked up and paranoid and have anxiety, that's depression. That's rough. Gonna hurt himself. Now, 2012, there was an incident. A Vermont state police person here accused Matt of negligent operation following a car wreck in Swanton. He tried to pass a line of three cars and overtook two of them, but then crashed into the third.

Speaker 5:
[19:44] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[19:44] Not good. No one was injured and he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor, careless and negligent operation and was sentenced to serve, this is a deterrent, two to three days in jail with a recommendation for that he would be on a work crew for those two to three days anyway.

Speaker 5:
[20:01] So that I hate those roads where there's like several cars and you got to pass them and you got to pass all of them because there's not just you can't just one at a time. You got to get them all. You got to have a long gap of nobody coming the other way. That is horrifying.

Speaker 4:
[20:16] That sucks. That's horrifying. Yeah, this guy, he clipped the third car he was trying to pass apparently.

Speaker 5:
[20:22] Was there a car coming? We don't know.

Speaker 4:
[20:24] We don't know that.

Speaker 5:
[20:25] We just got in a little early.

Speaker 4:
[20:27] They didn't drop a schematic for me, unfortunately. I wish they did. Hey, everybody out there, police forces, people like that, drop a schematic for me. It would help these cases a lot. You could really get these out a lot easier.

Speaker 5:
[20:38] Let me know specifically how much time he had before he got across that third one.

Speaker 4:
[20:43] If you could just start sending that shit directly to me also, that would be great. Just do research, shut up and give me a burger.com and just send it to the research directly. We'll be OK.

Speaker 5:
[20:54] I'll give you his number.

Speaker 4:
[20:55] Yeah. Well, if you need it privately, no problem. Yeah. So September 25th, 2013, he just turned 30 and things are coming to a head with Danielle, Matt and Danielle.

Speaker 5:
[21:08] And it's not good at home.

Speaker 4:
[21:10] Well, it's not good at home. Apparently, the problem is, he's been cheating for the last year with a woman.

Speaker 5:
[21:19] It's a man's world.

Speaker 4:
[21:20] And she's pissed off about it. Yeah. This guy is snorting pills. He's got every problem in the world. His pancreas is rotten out and there's more than one chick willing to fuck him. Isn't that amazing?

Speaker 5:
[21:30] He loses count of cars at three, James.

Speaker 4:
[21:35] We say it all the time and we need to reiterate it. If you're a guy out there and you can't find a woman, don't get mad at them. It's not their fault. This guy's getting laid. This guy's getting laid. That means you have no game because this guy's getting laid. You should be able to go...

Speaker 5:
[21:51] Your bar's too high. Something's not right. You've got to recalibrate.

Speaker 4:
[21:55] At some point, you should be able to go, hey, I don't snort pills. And some chick will be like, all right, well, that's a plus. My last boyfriend snorted pills. Let's talk about it. So this, I guess, he's been having an affair for about a year. And Danielle has been aware of the affair for about nine months, which seems very dangerous.

Speaker 5:
[22:13] What's going on there?

Speaker 4:
[22:14] He had made assurances to Danielle that he would end his relationship with the other woman. But guess what? He didn't.

Speaker 5:
[22:21] He didn't do it.

Speaker 4:
[22:21] He said, it's over, it's over. But then she'd catch him and catch him again. Now, today, on September 25th, 2013, a fight begins with Danielle during a telephone call that Matt made to Danielle as he was driving to meet the other woman. Now, she knows where he's going. He's saying he's going to meet her to end it forever. This is it. It's over right now. So this is where I'm going. And it's going to be over after this. Now, they're fighting while he's doing this, while he's driving there. So he went to this woman's apartment and Matt picks her up and drives her to a parking area nearby that they could talk, not in the apartment, but away from there a little, because he wanted to get out of sight because Danielle was threatening to come to this woman's apartment and talk to her herself.

Speaker 5:
[23:11] Oh my God.

Speaker 4:
[23:12] So he said, we need to drive away from the apartment to a spot of privacy over here.

Speaker 5:
[23:16] Did you say they have kids?

Speaker 4:
[23:19] I'm not, I can't find no kids that they have, but possibly, but let's hope not. Let's hope there's no kids waiting at home while all this is going on, because this is ridiculous. So anyway, while he's talking to his paramour here, and ending it, ostensibly ending it, his wife is calling him several times. She just keeps calling on the cell phone, blowing up the phone, yelling at him, and threatening, basically, what's taking so long? You should have told her, bitch, you're dumped, and then dropped her ass back off and kicked her out of your truck cab.

Speaker 5:
[23:54] She hasn't even gotten in your truck.

Speaker 4:
[23:56] That's, yeah, so she's yelling at him, and she's threatening to, quote, kick the other woman's ass. I'll kick her, I'll come over there and kick her goddamn ass and show her what's up. Kick his ass, that's the problem.

Speaker 5:
[24:08] You got the wrong ass, lady.

Speaker 4:
[24:09] Yeah, that's the fucking problem. You're mad at the wrong person. So, eventually, after this goes on, and he ends it with her, and now he's ending it with her, which, this is, he has made this bed to lion.

Speaker 5:
[24:23] Boy, oh boy.

Speaker 4:
[24:24] He's made the bed. I mean, there's no-

Speaker 5:
[24:26] It's a lumpy one.

Speaker 4:
[24:27] It's his, he has caused all this, but at this moment in time, I don't, I feel for him. Not I feel for him, but I wouldn't want to be him. Put it that way.

Speaker 5:
[24:38] There it is.

Speaker 4:
[24:39] That's the word.

Speaker 5:
[24:39] I don't envy him.

Speaker 4:
[24:40] I don't envy him. That's what it is. To be in trying to break up with one woman while another yells at you and calls you on the phone all the time would be a horrible vice grip to be put in. But he's, it's 100% his fault.

Speaker 5:
[24:52] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[24:52] And they're not wrong.

Speaker 5:
[24:53] This is his bed. He climbed in it with shoes full of gravel and took them off.

Speaker 4:
[24:57] Why did you do that? He ate a whole sleeve of Ritz in here, and now he's wondering why he's itchy. And it's like, listen, cat, you know, brother, you are going to be itchy for a while.

Speaker 5:
[25:07] You let the cats piss in your bed, bud.

Speaker 4:
[25:09] Yeah. It's going to be wet and stinky. So he eventually drops the other woman off at her apartment. As he does this, he noticed that Danielle is parked nearby.

Speaker 5:
[25:21] She's here.

Speaker 4:
[25:21] She has come to the apartment and is parked nearby. Now, I don't know if she was parking to see if they were going to have a kiss goodbye or whatever the fuck, but she does it.

Speaker 5:
[25:29] Now, he noticed.

Speaker 4:
[25:30] He sees her there. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, he sees her for sure. And they leave the apartment. Now, he's in one car. She's in another. Danielle's behind him. And they pull into a gas station on Main Street in St. Albans to hash this out. OK, so they pull in, they get out. She says she's angry. She's pissed off at him. He's an asshole and she's sick of this whole situation, which she absolutely should. She should have dumped him. He's a drug addict fucking, you know, he's having problems and he's having affairs. It's like it's one thing, stand by your partner. They're having some problems. But then once they start fucking around, you go, see you later. Don't have to deal with that anymore. Have fun.

Speaker 5:
[26:11] Serial cheating is one thing, but he's holding a whole ass relationship.

Speaker 4:
[26:16] He's got a whole relationship going. Yeah, this is, he's got a second thing happening. This isn't just, he went out to a bar one night when he was on the road during a sales conference and banged some chick from Chattanooga. That's not what's going on here. This is a totally different story.

Speaker 5:
[26:30] And she got out of the car to tell him that she's angry. He should have known that by the fact that she's fucking here.

Speaker 4:
[26:36] That she's at the place, yeah, with both hands on the wheel with her elbows locked. This is the stance of a pissed off woman right here.

Speaker 5:
[26:48] And present, she's here.

Speaker 4:
[26:49] Present. So I love how the court documents put it. During this conversation, conversation is a very funny way to put this.

Speaker 5:
[26:59] Confrontation, what's the difference?

Speaker 4:
[27:01] I really love sometimes how court documents put things. They're so just like plain language and frank, it's very funny. During their conversation, she apparently took off her wedding rings as she does about once a month during arguments. She takes off her rings, I'm done with this, throws them at him, he picks them up, she puts them back on later. Now, she wanted to continue this again from the court documents. Although his wife wanted to continue talking, Matthew wanted to go to his father's house. Let's read between the lines on that one. She wanted to keep yelling at him and he said, I don't want to hear it anymore.

Speaker 5:
[27:39] She wanted to keep talking at an elevated volume without his...

Speaker 4:
[27:42] Outside the gas station. Yeah, outside, right near Pump 4. This is a mess.

Speaker 5:
[27:50] Without interruption.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 5:
[29:48] Now back to the show.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 5:
[32:25] Now back to the show.

Speaker 4:
[32:27] So he jumps in his car and says, I'm not doing this anymore. Once again, by the way, he's earned all of this.

Speaker 5:
[32:33] This is unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[32:35] He's earned every bit of hire and acrimony here.

Speaker 5:
[32:38] All of it. You don't get to decide when this conversation is over. You sit still.

Speaker 4:
[32:43] You are going to. Yeah. She didn't get to decide when your affair was over. So you don't get to decide whether her being pissed off is over.

Speaker 5:
[32:50] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[32:51] So he jumps in his truck and takes off on Main Street, driving north at a high rate of speed, just guns it out of Main Street. We know he likes to go around stuff. He's not one to wait in traffic. His wife.

Speaker 5:
[33:04] Outrun her rage.

Speaker 4:
[33:05] Yep. So then she goes, gets in her car, follows him.

Speaker 5:
[33:09] Car chase.

Speaker 4:
[33:10] Car chase. Now, she's a little bit behind him because he jumped in and took off real fast. So she had to wait for a couple of cars to go. So she's back a little bit. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about a red light that's about to happen, actually. At the intersection of Main Street and Lower Newton Road in downtown St. Albans City, in parentheses, that's what that is. He runs a red light. Okay. He's about to run a red light. Now, at the same time, a car coming the other way is trying to turn left onto Main Street from Lower Newton. So he's about to blow a red light into someone turning left, which would just pound him in the driver's door and could kill people. I've been in a car accident like that. It sucked. I think they're turning left and he's coming this way. So I think it's one of those.

Speaker 5:
[33:56] They're going around him left?

Speaker 4:
[33:58] No. Yeah, they're coming from here and turning left. He's coming up.

Speaker 5:
[34:02] Oh, got it.

Speaker 4:
[34:04] Yeah. Which is I got hit in a driver's side by a minivan when I was 18 and I ended up, my whole driver's seat was on top of the passenger seat next to me. So that was a tough one. So the other car is being driven by Anna Alger and her fiancee as well as in the car with her. Anna's driving, her fiancee is in the passenger seat. Now, Anna Alger is born November 13th, 1981. She's from St. Albans. Parents are Lloyd Thompson and Rebecca Alger. And she graduated in 2000 from Missisquay Valley Union High School, which is the same high school Matt graduated from. They went to the same high school and they're like a year and a half apart. Yeah, but they were definitely there at the same time for a while, but they don't know each other. Okay. Now she's a licensed nurses aid, Anna is, and worked for several years in various nursing homes, including the Holiday House, the Haven Healthcare and the Redstone Villa, all in the area of St. Albans. She also worked at the Birchwood Terrace Healthcare Center in Burlington and for the past three years, she's been with Peerless Clothing and in earlier years was employed by Price Chopper. So she does nurses aid stuff and then, you know, works whatever job she needs to work. She has a daughter as well, but the daughter is not in the car. But her fiance, Patrick Dally, is in the car in the passenger seat. Now back to the intersection, because we kind of paused as we kind of froze time there. Now she is able to avoid the collision.

Speaker 5:
[35:48] Good.

Speaker 4:
[35:48] She's able to slam on her brakes and he makes, you know, he kind of goes around her. And again, from a court document, she made a gesture of errant disdain at him with her middle finger. Oh, yeah. She gave him the, errant disdain is a great way to put that, but okay.

Speaker 5:
[36:07] I didn't know that was what we call it.

Speaker 4:
[36:09] Me neither, but that's why I love a court document.

Speaker 5:
[36:11] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[36:11] They could have just said, she gave him the finger. We'd all know what that meant.

Speaker 5:
[36:15] She gave him the universal go fuck yourself finger, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[36:19] Now, this is fucking amazing. Okay. This is, wow. This is again from the court document. Yeah. Okay. Matt's wife saw Matt run the red light and called him to tell him about it. Like he did. Called him to tell him about it. Like he didn't know. Like he had something hanging off the bumper or some shit.

Speaker 5:
[36:45] That's an awful big hurry to get away from me, aren't you? You just ran a red light.

Speaker 4:
[36:49] Called him to yell at him and he didn't answer the phone. Yeah. Okay. Now, shortly after passing through the intersection where he almost killed a woman and man and then they gave him the finger, he pulls his car to the side of the road and stops. This is around 248 North Main Street around the address. It's right in front of a Domino's Pizza that's still there.

Speaker 5:
[37:13] Really?

Speaker 4:
[37:13] Yeah. Now, Anna Alger, rather than turning left, changed her direction to follow this guy.

Speaker 5:
[37:20] She made a U-turn for a conversation too?

Speaker 4:
[37:23] Well, she just made a right because she was coming to make a left. She would have just-

Speaker 5:
[37:26] Was she was going that left or was she going against him left? You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4:
[37:30] She's coming, I don't know how to explain this. He's going this way.

Speaker 5:
[37:33] He's going east, she's going north. She made a right. I get it.

Speaker 4:
[37:36] He's going north, she's going, let's say, west. She goes to turn where he was going to hit her this way. Now, instead of turning left, he turns right where he went and followed him.

Speaker 5:
[37:47] Okay. So he ran the shit out of that light. It was way red.

Speaker 4:
[37:50] Oh, it was just a red light. It wasn't like turning red. It was a red light. He just wasn't paying attention to it at all.

Speaker 5:
[37:56] Cross-traffic.

Speaker 4:
[37:57] Yeah. So she pulls in behind him and also stops, all right? Now, he's in the car and what he's doing is sitting with a loaded nine millimeter on his lap about to blow his brains out, according to him. So she gets out of her car and walks toward him. Anna does. Yeah. The wife is still on her way, still in route.

Speaker 5:
[38:20] Still hasn't caught up.

Speaker 4:
[38:22] She hasn't caught up yet. Danielle. Now, Anna gets out of her car and walks toward him. He gets out of his car and walks toward her. Oh, boy. As she's walking toward him, Anna waved her arms, pointed at him, and yelled, I think I like Anna, said, quote, What kind of a piece of shit do you think you are? Which is that's such a great question to ask in traffic. It just really is. What kind of a piece of shit do you think you are? Is phenomenal.

Speaker 5:
[38:51] She makes so many. She's so flustered.

Speaker 4:
[38:55] She's she almost got killed by this guy. Yeah. Fuck is your problem, you dick fart. Like she wouldn't even know what to call him. You know what I mean? Like that's how angry and flustered you are.

Speaker 5:
[39:06] She was going to kind of piece of shit move with that. But then she's like, this guy's a piece of shit. Kind of piece of shit you think you are.

Speaker 4:
[39:13] That's that's the a person who's just they've had it with you when they say that. Now, she gets in with about six feet of him. They're very close to each other. He just raises his pistol and fires 11 shots in her face.

Speaker 5:
[39:31] 11?

Speaker 4:
[39:31] 11. Empties his gun. Just empties his clip into a 9 millimeter.

Speaker 5:
[39:35] What the fuck?

Speaker 4:
[39:36] That's how many he had in there. Open fire, firing 11 shots, completely emptying the clip. She's hit. We're not sure if it's seven or eight times.

Speaker 5:
[39:46] I mean, he's a piece of shit shot.

Speaker 4:
[39:49] Yeah. He then puts another clip into the pistol.

Speaker 5:
[39:52] Oh my god.

Speaker 4:
[39:55] Well, and his fiance is getting out of the car.

Speaker 5:
[39:57] Oh my god.

Speaker 4:
[39:59] He points the gun at Anna's fiance and the gun jams. He tries to shoot him, but it won't go. It won't fire.

Speaker 5:
[40:06] Brand new mag and it won't fire. What a piece of shit gun.

Speaker 4:
[40:10] Yeah. So this guy's, this fiance was about to get killed too.

Speaker 5:
[40:15] Luckiest man on the planet.

Speaker 4:
[40:16] Yeah. So he then, Matt turns and runs away, starts running up the, just up the street, just taking off, right? He's running away and as he runs away, the fiance summons help from a passerby and they check on Anna. She's already dead.

Speaker 5:
[40:37] Yeah. You're not making it.

Speaker 4:
[40:38] She's been shot seven or eight times in the head and neck.

Speaker 5:
[40:41] Oh my God.

Speaker 4:
[40:43] From a distance of six feet and closer. This is...

Speaker 5:
[40:46] That's unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[40:47] That's wild. Now, the wounds are at least seven bullets, some striking her as she fell to the ground. They said any of the shots could have been fatal, any of them. They were all in the head and chest and head, chest, neck. They were all fatal. Investigators will later find 11 empty nine-millimeter shell casings on the roadway near where she was shot. That's how they know it's 11 times. So where's Matthew going?

Speaker 5:
[41:15] On foot.

Speaker 4:
[41:16] He takes off up the street. Now, Danielle, who was witnessing all this from a couple car lengths behind, chases after him basically. She chases after him and she sees him point the pistol to his head and try to pull the trigger, but it still won't work. This guy is a fucking loser. He's just a fucking loser. I'm sorry. He's just a loser. What a piece of shit and an asshole and a loser.

Speaker 5:
[41:45] It's exactly what he is and a piece of shit.

Speaker 4:
[41:48] He can't kill himself, but he can kill an innocent woman who he almost killed already.

Speaker 5:
[41:52] You're right.

Speaker 4:
[41:53] So it's like...

Speaker 5:
[41:54] Almost vehicular manslaughtered her, instead shot her in the face a million times.

Speaker 4:
[41:58] Instead straight murdered her. So at that point, Danielle takes the pistol from him as well as a second pistol he was carrying.

Speaker 5:
[42:07] He had another?

Speaker 4:
[42:09] He had another one. The St. Albans Police arrive at the scene shortly after that. You know, they arrest him. There's a video shot by a witness named Kyle Gagney who, or Ganya, either one, who videos the entire arrest. And basically, the video shows police holding him down, taking him to a cruiser. And you can hear a voice be heard and it's Matt's voice talking about slowing down and saying he was sorry. So that's what he's saying. Now, he had two firearms, a Ruger 9mm semi-auto handgun and a Kel-Tec.380 pistol, along with three mags as well, three clips, including the empty one, and five loose bullets that were just loose. Just loosey, just loosey that he kept in there.

Speaker 5:
[43:02] They fall out of the magazines.

Speaker 4:
[43:03] Oh, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. I thought you meant in the gun. I thought you were joking. You know, if they're sitting out loose, yeah, you know, it could fall out.

Speaker 5:
[43:10] They might fall out of a Kel-Tec. That's not a good weapon.

Speaker 4:
[43:13] It seems like a piece of shit.

Speaker 5:
[43:14] Yeah, that's like a point.

Speaker 4:
[43:16] There's a witness named Kylie Charbonneau, who's working at Domino's across the street. She heard six or seven gunshots and ran outside to the front of the store, which seems ill advised.

Speaker 5:
[43:27] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[43:28] There's six or seven gunshots outside. Let me go out there and see what's happening. No.

Speaker 5:
[43:32] As a Domino's employee?

Speaker 4:
[43:34] Nope. Does this have anything to do with pizza? Probably not. We don't use guns for our pizza, so.

Speaker 5:
[43:39] You're inviting violence to a Domino's. Stop it.

Speaker 4:
[43:43] No, thank you. She said, I actually heard the squealing of the tires. I heard screaming and I heard multiple gunshots. When I actually walked to the door to see what the noise was, because it wasn't just firecrackers, I just knew it. I looked outside and I saw the guy walking from his black car. He saw the cops coming and he willingly emptied out his pockets and laid there on the ground and let them arrest him. He wasn't fighting or anything. It was really scary. He was screaming, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. He was saying how he was trying to kill himself and the trigger wouldn't go off and how that woman should have left him alone. Okay. Another witness named Carolyn Manahan said, I've never seen anything like that before. Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[44:25] I would fucking hope not.

Speaker 4:
[44:26] I would hope. I never see anybody just unload a clip into someone's face after they almost killed the fucking first person.

Speaker 5:
[44:33] Every time it happens, I go, another one this week?

Speaker 4:
[44:36] Jesus Christ. I guess there was an off-duty cop working out in the fitness zone that was right there. They said that he looked out the window and told everybody to get away from the window. Then he locked the door and parked his cruiser in front of the victim. So, shield from people looking here. So, that's what went on there. Now, the video of the arrest was on Facebook, and that was a big deal. The Kyle Ganya, who took the video, said, I was sitting there the whole time and I never realized he had a gun on his lap till I saw him grab it and toss it onto the ground. And another comment under the video from a woman named Jill Marie Longley said, I saw the man and the woman standing outside of their cars and they seemed to be arguing. He started toward her and she put her hands up and said something along the lines of, No, don't. I had been driving by at this time and when I went past, I heard a shot. When I looked back, she was on the ground and he had taken off. So extremely scary. Okay. Now, not at all where you guys thought the story was going to go, correct? Wow. You thought the wife is going to get it or he's going to end up?

Speaker 5:
[45:44] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[45:45] Something, but not.

Speaker 5:
[45:46] The girl is going to fight back.

Speaker 4:
[45:48] Yeah, not some, her fiance would jump out and then kill Matt. You know what I mean? Like before he got a chance to kill her and that, but this is crazy.

Speaker 5:
[45:55] Entire peripheral character.

Speaker 4:
[45:57] Totally peripheral character. This is what I mean. This is, you don't know what the hell is going on with people when they're crazy on the road. You have no idea what they're pissed off from. You have no idea if they're about to blow their brains out and you're getting in their way. You don't know. It's always best to just say, fuck it and drive away. It doesn't matter. What are you going to settle by? What are you going to punch better driving skills into somebody? Like it doesn't work like that really. It's stupid.

Speaker 5:
[46:22] You're going to get to tell them they're a piece of shit though.

Speaker 4:
[46:25] Yeah. But you can do that out the window. That should make you feel good enough.

Speaker 5:
[46:28] You can do that in your car.

Speaker 4:
[46:29] Screaming out the window.

Speaker 5:
[46:30] I was driving with Winn a couple months ago on my way somewhere. There was a man, I noticed he was swerving in and out of traffic. He got off the freeway. Literally, I mean, he was swerving around traffic. You could see him in the rear view. He got off maybe 20 miles down the road. He was on the same freeway with me. As he got off the road, I glanced over. I saw him getting off the freeway. Rolled his window down and gave me the finger. I'm like, this man has had a whole thing happening in his truck for the last fucking, I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[47:04] That's what I mean. That man's mad.

Speaker 5:
[47:06] I had no idea.

Speaker 4:
[47:08] I don't even know what I did. That's what I'm saying. It's really pointless.

Speaker 5:
[47:12] Yeah, absolutely pointless. Just don't bother, because you don't know the infraction. You don't know what the retribution is for the refraction, because you don't infr- for the problem. You don't know.

Speaker 4:
[47:24] It's no, you have no idea. One time it worked out where somebody like went around and almost hit me, and I was like, you motherfucking asshole, and he drove like 20 feet and then hit a cop car. I was like, yes, fuck you. Take that, dickhead. I was like, you're going, now you're, good. So they get Matt to the station. Yeah. They arrest him, they take him down to the St. Albans Police Department, and they sit him down and they bring him in the interview room. And this takes place. Okay. Matt says, hello. The detective says, hi.

Speaker 5:
[47:57] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[47:58] And Matt says, I'm Matt.

Speaker 5:
[48:01] Boy, oh boy.

Speaker 4:
[48:02] And the detective said, are you Matt? Are you him? Let's make sure of that.

Speaker 5:
[48:06] Are you the guy?

Speaker 4:
[48:07] And Matt says, I was pulled over here to let her go because I was going to kill myself. So he's saying, I pulled over so she could go by and I was just going to kill myself on the side of the road.

Speaker 5:
[48:18] Oh.

Speaker 4:
[48:19] That's what he said. So the detective says, okay, hang on, hang on.

Speaker 5:
[48:23] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[48:23] The detective, he hasn't even read him his rights yet.

Speaker 5:
[48:25] I got to read you something real important.

Speaker 4:
[48:27] He's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then he said, okay, hang on, hang on. Matt says, then she got out.

Speaker 5:
[48:32] Shut up.

Speaker 4:
[48:33] Detective says, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 5:
[48:35] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[48:35] Calm. And then Matt says, are you a doctor? Yeah. Doctors usually carry guns. That's that's who I am.

Speaker 5:
[48:42] I'm Doctor Detective Jones.

Speaker 4:
[48:45] That's me. I'm an armed doctor and I'm here to talk to you.

Speaker 5:
[48:51] Let me do your blood pressure.

Speaker 4:
[48:53] Yeah. Anybody with a tie is a doctor in this guy's mind. So the detective sergeant says, no, I'm a detective. And Matt says, I didn't take any of my medication this morning. I'm sick. I don't feel well at all. And the detective says, okay. Cool. Yeah. Matt says, I didn't mean it. I didn't mean anything. And the detective says, can I talk? Can I talk to you?

Speaker 5:
[49:18] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[49:19] And Matt says, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And the detective says, can I talk to you? Okay. And Matt says, I'm sorry. And the detective says, okay. And Matt says, I'm sorry. He said, I was trying. I'll tell you everything. And the detective says, okay. And Matt says, I'll tell you everything. And he says, okay. Sure. Then Matt says, I swear to God, I won't give you any problem. I swear to God. What do you think the detective says? Okay. Okay. That's exactly right. And then he goes on, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And the detective says, we just need to figure out what's going on. Okay.

Speaker 5:
[50:00] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[50:00] Okay is his comfort word. Then Matt says, I'm going to, it's been my counselor. And the detective says, okay, hang on. Yeah, right there. Just hang on. Matt does not hang on. He says, my counselor, my counselor quit. My counselor quit. And then I, I'm so sorry. Detective says, hang on, hang on. Okay. In order for me to talk to you, okay, I got to read you what's called a Miranda warning. Okay. None of this matters at this point. So Matt says, okay, yup, yup. Read it. Let's do it. The detective said, I'm a detective with the police department here. And okay. And then Matt says, I'm so, I used to be such a good, I didn't never, I never done anything wrong. I mean, I got in a car accident and I got a careless and negligent out of it. This, I swear to God.

Speaker 5:
[50:55] Great.

Speaker 4:
[50:56] The detective asks, what's your name?

Speaker 5:
[50:58] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[50:59] Because this is all the information. All that is irrelevant to me right now. I got this sheet I need to fill out.

Speaker 5:
[51:04] Yeah. I got specific questions I got to ask you.

Speaker 4:
[51:08] Yeah. So Matt says, is she okay? Matt Webster.

Speaker 5:
[51:12] What? Well, first, is that your first name?

Speaker 4:
[51:18] I mean, yeah. So he says, the detective says, okay, I got, before I go any further, I have to read you these warnings. And Matt says, I've seen it on TV. Yeah. Okay. Like I know how this goes. This is fine. So the detective said, in order for me to talk to you and find out exactly what happened today, I've got to read this to you. Okay. And he says, okay. And we go on date of birth. Do you know what the day, today's date is? And he says, yes. And you know, what time it is and all this type of shit. He says, anything you want to know, I'll tell you. I'll tell you everything. And the cop says, okay, are you going to be able to calm down for me where I feel comfortable enough where I can take these two off? Meaning, I think his guns, I think his guns and his cuffs. Like, do I need these in here? You're going to be cool, right? And he says, yeah, definitely. And he says, okay. And then Matt says, definitely, I swear to God, I'm seriously, I will do whatever. He just said, calm down. He said, I will do whatever. I mean, one of the reasons obviously, I just, I just, is my wife okay? Sorry, I don't, I don't. She was in the orange car. She was behind me or not behind me.

Speaker 5:
[52:26] See the ADD?

Speaker 4:
[52:27] It's, he's all over the place.

Speaker 5:
[52:29] He's manic as fuck, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[52:30] Yeah, he's in a complete manic meltdown at this moment in time. So the detective says, okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 5:
[52:37] Too many questions, too many statements, too many words.

Speaker 4:
[52:39] He said, before we go any further, I've got to explain the Miranda rights and your warnings here. Got to do this. So then they go on right to remain silent. It's a bunch of yes sirs, and so we'll skip all that. So they said, do you want to be represented by a lawyer and have one present during questioning? That's a two part question. So I wouldn't even talk to you, you know? So he's also telling Matt, if you do want a lawyer, I'm out of this room and you're not going to be able to get this all out like you want to. Yeah. So Matt said, it's theirs. I guess I got to know if she's okay. So the detective says, do you want to talk to me? And Matt said, I should, right? It's better. It's better that way, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I should. Yes. Yes. He is all over the place. So the detective says, is it better that way?

Speaker 5:
[53:28] Ask any defense attorney. They will say no, it is absolutely not.

Speaker 4:
[53:32] It's better. It's better that way, I think. I don't know. I don't know. I should. Yes. Yes.

Speaker 5:
[53:36] It's better for the taxpayers. That's for sure.

Speaker 4:
[53:39] So what do you think the detective says? Okay. That's right. The answer is always okay. So he says, yes, sir, I wish to talk to you. All right. So the detective said, okay, you've been advised to your rights. There's no threats or promises have been made against me, knowing my rights. I agree to waive them. I waive my right, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. And he says, can you sign it right here? Because that's the I'm going to talk thing.

Speaker 5:
[54:07] He says, yes. And we move on, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[54:09] So, he said, all it's saying is that you agree to speak to me. That's all it is. And Matt says, I guess I'm just, I'm afraid, because, you know, I don't know the laws too well.

Speaker 5:
[54:19] No, you don't.

Speaker 4:
[54:20] Do you know that shooting a stranger in the face eight times is against it?

Speaker 5:
[54:23] Do you know red means stop? We'll start there.

Speaker 4:
[54:25] Well, let's see, let's go back to that.

Speaker 5:
[54:27] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[54:29] Let's go back to waiting in lines and not passing around people when you don't have room. Let's start there and then we'll go to red lights.

Speaker 5:
[54:35] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[54:35] And we'll see if we can get all the way up to murder at some point.

Speaker 5:
[54:39] Get right up to road rage murder.

Speaker 4:
[54:42] Yeah. So he says, Matt says, I guess I want to be 100 percent honest with you and everything I know. And the detective says, okay, well, in order for me to talk to you. And Matt says, okay. He says, I mean, you have to waive your rights. It's up to you whether or not you want to waive your rights. There's two sides to every story. And I know that and you know that. Okay. And I don't know what really happened. And Matt says, I was, okay. Like, I'll explain it. So anyway, they go back and forth. So he says, in order for me to get your side of the story, I need to talk to you. And he says, so I mean, it would be, I mean. And Matt says, I want to do the right thing. But I don't know if the right thing is to get a, would they be able to come right now so I could talk to you, a lawyer? I don't know. So he's saying, should I get a lawyer and he can sit here and then we'll talk.

Speaker 5:
[55:32] Will it take a while to get them down here? Will it inconvenience them?

Speaker 4:
[55:35] Yeah, well, he's saying, like, you know, I don't want to sit here and not talk to you for that long. But what he doesn't understand is if he asks for a lawyer, the interrogation is over. No lawyer would say, yeah, let's sit in an interrogation room. I'll sit next to you while you answer questions. He'd say, shut the fuck up. Go to your jail cell and we'll deal with it later.

Speaker 5:
[55:53] We're not, we'll sit here too.

Speaker 4:
[55:55] Yeah. So then the detective says, man, I can't give you that advice. I can't give you a legal advice. So Matt says, right. And the detective says, you know, and Matt says, I just, I just, I don't, as a man, I don't want you to look less at me. You know, if I choose to like, if I should say I want to get the lawyer, I do, I want to help you. I need to tell you what happened.

Speaker 5:
[56:23] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[56:24] Okay, so if he went to, I don't want you to think less of me. This is a stranger.

Speaker 5:
[56:29] I don't want you to look down on me as a bitch of a man.

Speaker 4:
[56:33] Kind of a pussy man, if you will. So he said he wanted to talk with the sergeant more because it's the right thing to do. And I just know someone is going to holler at me later for it, probably because I know it's the right thing to do, but I know a lawyer is going to be like, how stupid are you, dumb fuck?

Speaker 5:
[56:50] What the fuck are you doing?

Speaker 4:
[56:51] So then he signs it and here we go. So he said that day, he was at home reading his email. He received a message from his ex-girlfriend, whom he'd been having an affair with starting in January 2013 and ending about two and a half months before today. He then diverts into describing the car he had finished preparing the week before. He said, we finally finished the car Friday. I was going to start work. Everything was going to go the right way. He then describes an app on his phone which allowed him to communicate with his ex-girlfriend without his wife knowing. You know, WhatsApp or some shit like that.

Speaker 5:
[57:29] Oh, Snapchat.

Speaker 4:
[57:30] Snapchat, WhatsApp, whatever the fuck. So he then asks where the phone is, the cop, and then Matt starts crying again. He said he lost track of the phone after the shooting, and he said, quote, I was collapsing on the ground with my wife. I'm so friggin scared. Then he says, I was lazy.

Speaker 5:
[57:51] What?

Speaker 4:
[57:52] Yeah, he said I was supposed to be clean in the house. I wish I was still cleaning the house.

Speaker 5:
[57:57] I'd give anything to be dusting right now.

Speaker 4:
[57:59] Anything to be just scrubbing a toilet ball right now, so bad.

Speaker 5:
[58:05] Give anything to smell pledge right this second.

Speaker 4:
[58:08] The smell of pine right now would take me away from this place. He said, he then he said his girlfriend called him in tears apparently upset that her children's father was going to leave her and take their children, not Matt, her actual, her other children, her children's father is the woman he's having an affair with. So she asked to see Matt. He said he initially refused, but then he agreed. However, he called his wife at work to tell her he was going to see his ex-girlfriend, you know, because he's a moron for the 45th fucking time this episode. Then the detective asked for details, including the route he took to his ex-girlfriend's apartment and all that. He said, Matt said, I got a really bad memory. I'm trying to get this the best that I can for you. Hey, everybody, just going to take a quick break from the show to tell you the best home security available out there, Simply Safe.

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Speaker 5:
[61:19] Now back to the show.

Speaker 4:
[61:21] He said because his wife was coming to his ex-girlfriends, he said they left the apartment and parked behind the VFW hall on Lake Street. Wall parked, he was talking with his wife over the phone, and he had his ex-girlfriend tell his wife the affair was over. Said he passed it. You tell her it's over. Now describing his relationship, he says, I'm a pushover. I'm a nice guy. I never meant to hurt anybody in my life. He said even though it's done, I wanted to protect my ex-girlfriend. He said I didn't want her to lose her children. She still loves them. She's got one tattooed on each foot. Well, then she must be a great mother.

Speaker 5:
[62:00] What a mother, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[62:01] That means she's a great mother. Any tattoo you have on your body of your kid's names or anything, you can do anything you want. You can burn them with fucking cigarette butts. You can beat them with coat hangers. You do whatever you want, really, because you're a great mom. You have a tattoo of them, so you must be a great mom.

Speaker 5:
[62:17] Specifically feet, though.

Speaker 4:
[62:19] You know, you paid a guy upwards of $100 for that. You must be a great mom. It doesn't mean you're a great or a bad mom. It just means you got tattoos of your kids. That's all. It's fine.

Speaker 5:
[62:30] But when you can show it off with a strappy shoe, that's a mom.

Speaker 4:
[62:34] Oh, well, that's...

Speaker 5:
[62:35] It's a damn nice mom.

Speaker 4:
[62:36] That's mothering right there. So, Matt then describes taking the ex-girlfriend back to her apartment, and he said, in the middle of this, he said, I haven't taken any of my medications, so I don't feel so hot.

Speaker 5:
[62:48] Right.

Speaker 4:
[62:49] And the detective said, maybe I can get you the medications from your car later. And, you know, so you can get your stuff. If you have them on, we can get them for you, if they're prescribed by a doctor. And he offers him some water. He said, Danielle comes in, and she parks by the apartment, and Webster said here, Matt said he told his wife to follow him, like, let's go over here. They went to the Switchyard Shopping Plaza on Lake Street, where he says he bought cigarettes and a soda. They spoke, he said, quote, she was angry. Well, no shit. Yeah, she had to leave work to go sit in an apartment complex because you're hanging out with your girlfriend. Yeah, I would think that'll piss her off a little bit.

Speaker 5:
[63:29] She left work to monitor your breakup.

Speaker 4:
[63:31] Yeah, to make sure. He said that he drove away from the switchyard with Danielle following him. He said, I was on Main Street in front of that new restaurant, Twigs, I think it is. I said he had the nine millimeter handgun in a holster. He said, I've carried a gun since I was old enough to carry a gun. So I just always have my gun. He diverts from the gun to describe his medications and said he takes two pain medications for pancreatitis. And he said, that stuff's rotted my brain even more, even more than it already was rotted there.

Speaker 5:
[64:04] If you think heroin's bad, wait till I tell you about whatever the fuck this over-the-counter shit is.

Speaker 4:
[64:10] No shit. So returning to what happened, he said, I took my nine millimeter off safety and chambered around. He said, he pressed the gun to his neck, which doesn't seem like the best way to do it.

Speaker 5:
[64:23] That's messy.

Speaker 4:
[64:24] He said, I was ready to die because this argument had been so ongoing for almost a year. He said, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I had it squeezed. I could feel it coming back. He said, the hammer on the gun. He said, I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to die. He said, while all this was occurring, he ran a red light. He said, he pulled over and a couple of a couple pulled up behind him. He said, they pulled over, I didn't even want to talk about this part. I was so scared. He said, I wasn't safe to drive, so I pulled over as soon as I could because I wasn't safe to drive. He said, I don't know why I got out. I got out and first the guy started to get out. He was in the passenger seat. Then the driver's side opens up. I had these two people coming at me. He said, he was still holding his gun. He said, I tried to put it back in the holster and it wouldn't go. I didn't think. I didn't think. And then he starts crying and he says, the gentleman that was in the passenger side got back in the car. I think he saw the gun. I said, can you please get back in your car? He went back in the car and she charged further, like a six-point buck come up over the hill.

Speaker 5:
[65:31] Is that what they do?

Speaker 4:
[65:32] That's what they do. I have a yard full of deer. Those bucks, if you get caught out there, they just charge you, man. They're like bulls, boy, I'll tell you something.

Speaker 5:
[65:40] Especially if you're wearing red.

Speaker 4:
[65:41] Oh, they come right at you. He said, like a six-point buck come up over the hill, I pulled up and shot. She kept coming. No, she fell to the ground. I emptied the clip and I didn't even know it. I saw her fall and at that point it was like, my God, what did I do? He said a friend riding in the car with Anna, her fiance, started to get out of the car. He said I pointed it at him. He said he also put a fresh clip in the gun and put it to the temple and squeezed the trigger and it went click, is what he says. So then it's kind of difficult to follow because it's jumbled around. He's a mess. He's crying. And he said his wife appears and takes the gun. At least that's what he thinks. He said his memory is so jumbled that there's no way to replay it now in my brain. He said I'm a terrible fucking shot at one point too. He said I remember seeing the blood on the pavement. I knew I had done wrong, so I said somebody's got to call the cops. He describes cradling both guns because he didn't want anyone to use them. He said my wife caught up to me. She said you just shot somebody. I collapsed in her arms, and I said somebody's got to call the cops. So he said there was another man there. I think he was going for my gun, my father's gun that was on the ground. I was afraid the man would shoot my wife, so I picked the gun up and told everyone to stay back. Then when uniformed officers arrived, he said he threw the gun out of reach and laid on the ground. He said I wanted to be taken into custody. Yeah, so interesting. He said he always carries an extra clip with the 9mm because it only has 10 rounds.

Speaker 5:
[67:18] That's very little.

Speaker 4:
[67:20] Yeah, very, I mean, there's so many times I leave the house where I'm like, I need at least 20 shots. I have to have at least 20 shots or else I'm a freak.

Speaker 5:
[67:27] I need two mags and one in the chamber.

Speaker 4:
[67:30] I won't go to the Five Guys without it. I mean, obviously, it's just dangerous over there. He said, because why?

Speaker 5:
[67:36] The chamber, just for safety's sake.

Speaker 4:
[67:38] He said, because I'm a terrible shot.

Speaker 5:
[67:40] I know. Six feet away, you still missed three times.

Speaker 4:
[67:44] Yeah, he said, I might need to unload the clip on somebody. He said, guns have kind of always been in my life. He said, he used to work for a Georgia gun maker, Century Arms. That's a nice one. Yeah. He said also, they asked about his medications, and he said, I was a prescribed addict. I think meaning he's addicted to the drugs he was prescribed, meaning oxycodone and methadone. He said, I was all out of my oxycodone because I had a bad month pain wise. So he then he began snorting oxycodone. He said, it stopped my pain and it stopped my depression. Yeah, I bet.

Speaker 5:
[68:19] Shit was amazing.

Speaker 4:
[68:20] He then said, if I was still in oxycodone, I don't think my temper would have been. Then he said, today I was at my lowest depression stage. So if he would have just snorted his pills, he would have been fine, is what he's saying.

Speaker 5:
[68:32] He cared about this, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[68:33] Then he asked about Anna's condition, but the detective said he didn't know. And then Matt said, I want to know and I don't want to know.

Speaker 5:
[68:41] You know, Matt.

Speaker 4:
[68:42] You know, she's pretty dead. So during the arraignment, the state's attorney calls it an act of extreme violence. This was a random act. And he said the defendant and Anna had no relationship whatsoever, which is true, despite the fact they went to the same high school at the same time, they didn't know each other.

Speaker 5:
[68:59] They had no relationship.

Speaker 4:
[69:01] Yeah, it's brutal. So he's arraigned, we're going to have a trial for him in a minute here, but it's going to take a while, the trial to build up. It's usually a year, year and a half of prep. So a year after the actual murder, family members hold a vigil for Anna Alger here. And they said they hope through a candlelight vigil and sending lanterns and balloons into the sky, that Anna somewhere can feel the love that they have for her. Her grandmother, Gladys, said that Anna was ready to give, basically, she said that, okay, the family said a memorial placed at the scene of the shooting was moved to a friend's yard last week after St. Albans City officials received a complaint. And Anna's grandmother said that she was ready to give the mayor an earful about that shit. It's a goddamn memorial for a dead woman. Alger's sister, Ginny, said that she feels like the community support has dwindled some since the shooting, but the family is standing strong. They said, our main concern is justice for Anna at this point. We're just asking the community to back her up. She was a hometown girl. Now, he's going to go to trial.

Speaker 5:
[70:14] Is that right?

Speaker 4:
[70:15] This seems like the ultimate need-to-plea bargain case. You've shot a person in broad fucking daylight in the middle of Main Street, literally, with people watching out the Domino's Pizza window and while they were on their treadmills, like, this is crazy.

Speaker 5:
[70:29] Well, you shot a woman to death on the street.

Speaker 4:
[70:32] Because she asked you what kind of a piece of shit you think you are.

Speaker 5:
[70:35] That you think you are.

Speaker 4:
[70:36] Think you are. So one of the defense strategies here, because you go, how do you defend this guy?

Speaker 5:
[70:41] I guess you just call him crazy, right?

Speaker 4:
[70:44] You can either call him crazy or they're going to say it's self-defense. Two people were coming at him, so he felt threatened. He's a big bald fat fuck too, man. So I don't know how threatened he felt by a woman coming at him, but whatever. Anyway, the Patrick Dally, Alger's fiance, who was in the passenger seat here, he had a deposition here that was read to the court, and he spoke of how angry Anna was at the near collision. He said he urged her not to stop, but he said that's not the person she is. He said, if someone ticks her off, she's going to tell you how she feels. He said he had also, he'd never previously seen her angry, but had heard from her family and best friend about her temper, but never put it on him, which is good. He's the state's attorney said, the deposition of these family members and Anna's best friend would serve no purpose and would only serve to harass these people because they were trying to bring in depositions from other people. The state was like, we're not making these people public for no reason, basically. So they also talk about provocation, and they say, provocation has to be adequate. Mere words are never enough to merit a physical response. She never made it past the fender of her car, and her car was riddled with bullets. So not like she was in his face trying to scratch his eyes out or something. The defense said his mental state was so impaired that he was without the capacity to form intent. Oh. That's what they have. They have a clinical psychologist named John Holt, who appears as an expert witness, who says that the only person Matt wanted to kill on the day of his fatal encounter was himself. That's it. And this was just in the way. So yeah, there's two shrinks. There's the, he was crazy shrink. That's John Holt saying that, you know, it's clear that he committed the act. He fired a weapon. In Mr. Webster's case, he was impaired by the immediacy of what happened. He'd gone from being suicidal, going through a red light and not even being aware of what was going on, to all of a sudden when he opened his car door and comes out, bam, incoming right at him, screaming. He did not have time to think rationally. And they said, well, he emptied an entire magazine plus a bullet that was in the chamber, so that's 11 trigger pulls. That's 11 intentional acts, right? And the doctor said, I'm not sure that's 11 intentional acts. He added, if the trigger pulls occurred rapidly, he may not have had time to think about what he was doing between shots.

Speaker 5:
[73:12] I guess you call that one event?

Speaker 4:
[73:15] One event, yeah, overall. Now, there's also the states he was fine shrink. That's Dr. Paul Cotton, who says that he'd been making conscious decisions throughout the afternoon before the fatal act, and those conscious decisions didn't end when he pulled the trigger. So there's that. Now, closing arguments here. The prosecutor says, Lastly, in discussing the absence of a need to prove motive, he said this, The only thing the law will require us to prove is for you to find that he intended to do her great bodily harm. Going back to that hammer and nail for a minute, this is a fellow who looked at the world like a hammer, carrying these two guns around all the time. No, you mean he looked at the world like a nail and he's carrying a hammer, which would be these two guns. Yeah. If you look at the world like a hammer, what does the rest of the world look like? I guess if you're the hammer, it looks like a nail. You're going to find a reason, an excuse to act out in that way. That's what they said. Now, the defense said, or I'm sorry, the prosecution went on. It's not like you pull the trigger once and the gun empties itself. You pull the trigger 11 separate times. It's not just wildly here and there and off in the distance at the target. So he's shooting right there. They said if he had actually pulled the trigger, he would have been successful in killing himself. As successful as he was in killing Anna Halger.

Speaker 5:
[74:36] He didn't pull the trigger?

Speaker 4:
[74:37] Because they said he must not have pulled the trigger because he said he tried to do it in the car and it didn't work, but then he got out and shot her 11 times, and then it wouldn't work again miraculously.

Speaker 5:
[74:45] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[74:46] So, yeah, the defense said the shots happened. It just happened so fast. We can't blame people. It's so quick. He said that it happened so quickly that Matt did not have the chance to think about what he was doing until it was all over. They said he's not upset. He's not mad. He's not enraged. Then he tells the police about the event and says, I don't know what I did. You fire until there's nothing there because you're not thinking.

Speaker 5:
[75:13] Well, you just keep pulling.

Speaker 4:
[75:14] Yeah. Now, the verdict here, the jury is five men and seven women. They began deliberating the case Tuesday night after five days of testimony. They stopped for the night, returned Wednesday morning and had a verdict pretty quick.

Speaker 5:
[75:30] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[75:31] They find him. Guilty of second-degree murder. Which is, it's not first-degree murder. She didn't even know this person 10 seconds before this happened, so you can't say it was premeditated. Reckless endangerment and negligent operation. Again, the traffic thing because he blew a red light, which is pretty funny. They even kept that charge in there. During sentencing, Anna's fiance, Patrick, said, we will never forgive you, Matthew, for what you put on us. We no longer have Anna. When Anna died, a piece of me did too. Anna's daughter writes a letter to the court. I won't give her a name. Says, now that you've shot my mom, because I don't know how old she is. Now that you've shot my mom, we can't do the things that we said we were going to do together. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So in a more recent note, she also said, you've really changed my life. I don't feel the same. I don't feel safe. She was 11 at the time writing that, by the way. This poor kid. What a poor kid. That sucks, man. Lost her mom. That's that shit. So the defense asked for a compassionate sentence. They said he's deeply remorseful. Look at him. He's so sad right now.

Speaker 5:
[76:43] Don't care.

Speaker 4:
[76:44] So he was contemplating history. He's got a long, long history of our contemplating suicide, long history of mental health problems and drug abuse. And, you know, come on. Yeah. Basically, come on, let's do this. Now, the prosecution's asking for life without parole. The defense said that would be completely disproportionate to the typical prison term for second-degree murder. Matthew speaks. He said, I'm sorry for the tears and broken hearts, for the family, friends, and coworkers who will never get to hear her laugh again. I heard she had a contagious laugh, and I'm sorry no one will be able to hear it anymore. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And there's a letter he wrote, and he said, every single time that I dream about that day, I try to fix it, fix what went wrong. But even while I'm asleep, I cannot fix it. I wake up in a cold sweat, stare at the cement wall, and begin to cry, not just for myself, but for everyone this tragedy has affected. The judge says, Ms. Alger did nothing to invite her death. Disagreements occur between people every day. Ms. Alger's response to the fact that you ran the red light and nearly caused an accident was not unusual. It was not improper or illegal. She may have been upset, but the court cannot state clearly enough that she is not at fault. She approached you, but she didn't provoke you. She had no idea what she was walking into. Mr. Webster, you are entirely responsible for what occurred. You are the one who was armed. You were the one who chose to, your response to her. You alone decided how this would end. You, sir, may fuck off 40 years to life. So pretty good sentence.

Speaker 5:
[78:18] It's not bad.

Speaker 4:
[78:19] For second degree, that's banging them pretty good. It's usually 20 to life for second degree. So 40 to life is, you're doing 40.

Speaker 5:
[78:27] Pretty steep, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[78:28] Yeah. Anna's family said, this is her stepmother said, we weren't sure what was going to happen. We were very satisfied. We can finally put Anna to rest. So that's nice. He appeals a couple of times, 2015, for retrial, 2017 to the state Supreme Court, saying the lower court should have suppressed incriminating statements he gave following his arrest before detectives read him his Miranda rights, even though he said the same things after he was read his Miranda rights. But those were utterances that you couldn't control. That detective was telling him to shut the fuck up and he wouldn't do it. In the middle of the sentence, he would interrupt him and say more. So there's no way to stop a guy for doing that. They reject it. He's still in prison.

Speaker 5:
[79:10] Good.

Speaker 4:
[79:11] Anna is still dead. Her daughter still doesn't have a mother. And yeah, Danielle's like, wow, they didn't expect the day to end like that.

Speaker 5:
[79:19] That's terrible.

Speaker 4:
[79:20] That is fucking crazy. So that, everybody, is St. Albans, Vermont. And wow, didn't expect that turn, right, at all.

Speaker 5:
[79:30] Unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[79:32] Yeah, that's a crazy story. It's just too crazy. And it's very Small Town Murder. I mean, it's in a small town. He's gonna chase him. It's Main Street. It's everything the show is. Sucks. Yeah, poor Anna. So anyway, if you enjoy that story, please get on whatever app you're on and give us five stars. It really helps drive the show up the charts and all that kind of thing. We don't understand it, but that's how it works. So for sure, do that. Follow us on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, Small Town Pod on Facebook. Definitely, definitely get yourself or go to shut up and give me murder.com. Get yourself tickets for live shows. We are May 2nd in Denver. Still some tickets left for that May 30th in Royal Oak. A few tickets left there. The other ones are sold out on that those weekends. Then Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Dallas, San Jose, Sacramento, Terrytown and Boston. So get your asses to a show. Come see us. Shut up and give me murder.com. patreon.com/crime in sports is where you get all of the bonus material. Anybody $5 a month or above, you're going to get everything we put out, including as soon as you subscribe, you get over 300 back bonus episodes you've never heard before. New ones every other week. One Crime In Sports, one Small Town Murder. You get it all this week. Crime In Sports, a program for kids in sports that turned into obviously a disaster and a cult of abuse and weirdness for Small Town Murder. Corey Richins, part two, Utah mother who poisoned her husband and then wrote a book about grief for her grieving children. It was, she's a terrible person. patreon.com/crime in sports. And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show and you get everything we put out ad free. So do that. Shut up and give me murder.com if you want to find us on social media. There's drop down menus that take you anywhere you could possibly need to go. So keep doing that and keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Hey, everybody, listening to Small Town Murder out there. Hi, good to see you out there. I'm here with Jimmie too. And this is an ad, but not an ad for a product. This is an ad for tour dates. Yes, come see a live show, the 2026 Tour. All the tickets are for sale right now, starting out with February 21st in Nashville, March 6th in Durham, March 7th in Atlanta. Phoenix is sold out. We do have tickets, though, to Your Stupid Opinions on the 21st of March. Salt Lake City sold out. Denver has tickets. We'll be there on May 2nd. May 29th, Buffalo sold out. Royal Oak, Michigan, May 30th. We have September 18th in Milwaukee, September 19th, Minneapolis. October the 3rd in Dallas, October 16th in San Jose, October 17th in Sacramento, November 13th in Tarrytown, November 14th in Boston. Come see us. The live shows are spectacular. Come join all of the other STM people. You're going to meet so many people. You're going to have fun.

Speaker 5:
[82:44] Make some new friends.

Speaker 4:
[82:45] Like crazy and make some new friends. Come out and see us. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you go for those tickets. Get them right now while they're hot.

Speaker 5:
[82:53] See you on the road.