transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:08] Pushkin. Wyclef Jean has spent the last three decades as one of the most impactful rappers, producers and composers in popular music. As a part of the Fugees, he helped craft their 1996 landmark album, The Score, one of the best selling hip hop albums of all time, and personally, one of my favorites. The following year, he released his debut solo album, The Carnival, which included hits like Guantanamera, featuring Celia Cruz, and the platinum certified single, Gone Till November. As a writer and producer for other artists, Wyclef is behind Whitney Houston's My Love Is Your Love, Santana's Maria Maria, Shakira's Hips Don't Lie, and the Destiny's Child remix of No, No, No, which was their breakout single. Today, we're bringing you a live conversation recorded at the On Air Podcast Festival, where I was joined by special guest host Sam Sanders to sit down with Wyclef. We get into what it was really like in the studio with Whitney Houston, how the Fuji shaped their sound while recording The Score, and the wisdom Wyclef would pass on to his younger self about what makes a great creative collaboration. This is Broken Record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my interview with Wyclef. Head over to youtube.com/brokenrecordpodcast if you'd like to watch.

Speaker 2:
[01:23] Without further ado, Justin Richmond and Wyclef Jean. Come on out. You're in charge, boss man.

Speaker 3:
[01:44] All right.

Speaker 1:
[01:48] Man, I'm so happy you're here.

Speaker 2:
[01:49] I'm honored to be with you all. Yeah, right.

Speaker 3:
[01:52] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[01:53] This is James Bird. I remember one time we did an interview, 2019, and we were talking about something, and you were like, you know, it'd be easier if I just showed you. And I was like, well, we don't got a guitar. We got up, we walked around this office building, every damn room to where we found the most busted guitar, missing a string, wouldn't stay in tune. You tuned that thing up. It was a miracle. I don't know how you tuned it, tuned that thing up and played it like, like Bill Worthy's Jimi Hendrix Combine was like the craziest thing. And that's when I realized, I mean, I always knew you were a great songwriter, great vocalist, great producer, great. But I was like, Wyclef is a player, man. Like Wyclef is a musician, a player. And not a player in that way, but I mean, music player, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3:
[02:44] Maybe. Not a player no more.

Speaker 1:
[02:48] But you really are an incredible, incredible musician. And not everyone can just do that. Just go find a random beat up, bust a guitar with a missing string and play it.

Speaker 2:
[03:01] What did you play that day? Do you remember?

Speaker 3:
[03:02] I just tuned the guitar and then I just started just playing, playing chords, playing perfect fifths, just having fun, yeah. But for me, like instruments, it started for me like in Haiti, I would say. I left, oh, there's always one Haitian somewhere. Right? So that's how to flag. You see the flag, yeah. But you know, I say like it starts for me in that small, tiny village, man.

Speaker 2:
[03:30] How old were you when you first began playing?

Speaker 3:
[03:33] I was like four. Like my aunt will tell you, like my first song was to my stray dogs. It's probably the worst song I ever wrote.

Speaker 2:
[03:42] Tell us. Oh, you got to tell us now.

Speaker 3:
[03:43] I'll tell you this song, it's terrible. So what happened though was I used to, in this village, like stray dogs would constantly come and I would feed them. And then one day it was Mardi Gras, Carnival. And then so I put a bunch of tar on me.

Speaker 2:
[03:58] Tar?

Speaker 3:
[03:58] Like tar.

Speaker 2:
[04:00] Black tar? You gave yourself black tar.

Speaker 3:
[04:01] So I was like, and then I put a bunch of like rags and then just create an outfit for Carnival.

Speaker 2:
[04:08] Right.

Speaker 3:
[04:10] And then I'm out there and then the dogs see me and they literally all come to attack me because they couldn't recognize me. And then when they jumped on me and I was like, Carnival, Carnival, Carnival, Carnival, Carnival, Carnival. And then they all just started licking me. So my aunt was like, that's his first song. The worst song I've ever wrote, but saved my life.

Speaker 1:
[04:33] What did it mean?

Speaker 3:
[04:35] It was just the tone. Right. Because the music is built from vibration. So lyrics are what we put afterwards. We just feel an expression. You know what I'm saying? Before words is an expression.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] So interesting then, you're saying that the lyrics come afterwards. When you're writing a song, are you thinking melody first or are you thinking lyrics first?

Speaker 3:
[04:59] It comes melody at times, mostly melodies.

Speaker 2:
[05:05] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[05:06] Rap wise though, because I was a battle rapper. That's how I learned how to speak English. Words was fierce. You know what I mean? So I would write raps, depending on who I'm about to battle. That's how I would write my schemes. But when it came to song writing, it all came from the church. So I would just hear melodies first.

Speaker 2:
[05:30] What church?

Speaker 3:
[05:31] So my dad grew up in Haiti when he came to Brooklyn. It's a church of the Nazarene. So it's like Pentecostal. It's literally like club church. You know what I'm saying? If you miss the club, come to our church on Sunday, you're going to get that same energy.

Speaker 1:
[05:53] It's incredible to say, but it's been 30 years since The Score, which is for me-

Speaker 2:
[05:57] Naps for The Score.

Speaker 1:
[05:58] One of the foundational albums of- This is going to be maybe blasphemous to certain people, but for me, when I think about The Score, I think about it like it's like hip-hop's abbey road, the sense of there's great music, there's great rock music after Abbey Road, but it could have stopped there and we would have been fine. You know what I mean? As much hip-hop came after The Score that I love, and I love a lot of it, if we did just stop right there at The Score, we was good. That was incredible. Much like The Beatles too, the sum of all those parts, man, incredible. But I want to play something real quick, because your first album, Blundered on Reality, you guys put it out, and to your point of being a battle rapper, it was very, for the people who know out there, maybe this makes sense, maybe it doesn't, very fushnickens in a way. It was heavy on the...

Speaker 3:
[06:51] Underground.

Speaker 1:
[06:51] Underground, heavy on the boom bap, heavy on the dope rhyme schemes. And it did okay.

Speaker 3:
[07:00] You're kind. It sold two copies.

Speaker 1:
[07:02] Okay. I didn't want to say it. But then Salon Remy did the Nappy Heads remix. And I want to play a bit of that real quick. And this became a hit for you guys.

Speaker 3:
[07:13] Yo, Mona Lisa, could I get a date on Friday? And if you're busy, I wouldn't mind taking Saturday. Round up the Posse Fuji coming around the way.

Speaker 1:
[08:09] And this is the first time... That's Nappy Heads Remix, Fugees.

Speaker 2:
[08:14] Also bring back the 90s, bring back the 90s. I miss it so, I miss the 90s.

Speaker 1:
[08:20] But that to me, when you listen to the Fugees in order, like that's the first time it sounded like you guys figured the sound out. Like that sounds like the genesis of The Score. And I never put it together until I listened to Blundered in Reality, Nappy Heads Remix, and The Score back to back to back to do this. Cause it sounded, at the time, it just sounded like The Score came out, fully formed, everyone immediately loved it. And it's like, where did this come from? And I was wondering, working with Salam Remy on this Nappy Heads Remix, did that unlock something for the three of you guys creatively?

Speaker 3:
[09:00] Yeah, so I think the first part about it is, so growing up in Jersey, we was raised with Kool and the Gang. So the first Fuji album was produced by Khalees Bayan from Kool and the Gang. So he's like the wizard, he did Jungle Boogie and everything. So at a very early age, I think I was like 15, 16, so hanging around Khalees. Khalees took me in as a, like a son. I was a jazz major in school, so he took me in and he started, he was like Mr. Miyagi, so he would quiz me and give me all these chops. So in the process, Khalees was responsible for producing Blundered on Reality. So what happens is, there was a sound out there. So Khalees was like, okay, I know they can rap, but we're going to get them in that sound. The best way to explain my relationship with Salam Remy, it's like Ray Charles and Quincy Jones. Because it's like, I already had everything in my head, but I'm real young and I'm doing beats quietly. So like when I would go to Salam, I would share with Salam like what I'm doing. He would share with me. I actually went to see Salam first and then I bought Lauren and Pryce over. So we had an idea of, in my head, like what I wanted to do, but it's like cool and again, what are you going to say? You're going to shut up and you're going to eat the L and figure it out. So they had a big studio in West Orange. So every time we record, then I go back to the hood. When I go back to East Orange, what was being recorded in the hills was not sounding like what was coming out of the trunks. So in the trunks, me and Jerry Wonder in the Book of Basement, we was literally doing what was coming out of the trunks. This is one last part that you had to know. So I didn't want to sell dope. So I was like, yo, I got to figure out a hustle because the Burger King wasn't working too well for me. So what I did was like, I was like, well, everybody on the block, they rapping. So if we become our own versions of Dr. Dre, then we don't have to sell dope. We can just charge them to do records. So in this concept, we literally just started developing a pulse within that vibe. So when we all went to see Salaam, the first thing Salaam was like was like, y'all too talented. Like y'all over talented, right? Because in this industry, no, you got to keep it stupid. Like one plus one got to equal two. We got to do some knucklehead shit.

Speaker 2:
[11:38] Did they throw out some ideas that they thought were too talented?

Speaker 3:
[11:41] No, he just felt like, because this group, I mean, I played 14 instruments. I'm a jazz head. I was scoring off-Broadway stuff. Lauren was heading to Sister Act 2. She just crushed the Apollo. So there was a lot. It was like, yo, how do you break that? Because you see in the industry, it's harder to break sophisticated talent, right? You see the... Because when you have talent that don't care about fame, but care about artistry and will not compromise, it's like hard. You'd be like, okay, what's the middle? And so it was like a Beach Street movie. So Salam put on the beat and it was like, yo, just go in the booth. And literally, now I'm about to see a different style of production. So he puts on the snappy headbeats and I go in the booth first. And Salam has a tape where we're rapping for 20 minutes straight. So Salam, you listen in to this, you got to drop this for the 30th year anniversary.

Speaker 1:
[12:45] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[12:45] And this wizard, Salam, literally, so we left to go to Europe. He went back and then he cut.

Speaker 2:
[12:54] The 20 minutes into.

Speaker 3:
[12:55] He cut the 20 minutes into literally 3 minutes and 30 seconds. And in the minute he did the math, something happened in my head too. And I said, oh, okay, I understand.

Speaker 2:
[13:08] Yeah. Can I ask you a follow up on this song? So it opens with you singing Mona Lisa, that melody, that little ditty, that motif ends up in an R&B ballad that you make for your solo album, Carnival, with the Neville Brothers.

Speaker 3:
[13:25] Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[13:26] I'm very interested in understanding how you take a motif, like that Mona Lisa riff, and have it work for a rap song with Salome producing and also an R&B slow gem with the Neville Brothers.

Speaker 1:
[13:41] Should we play the Carnival version of Mona Lisa real quick just so people can hear what Sam's talking about?

Speaker 2:
[13:45] One of the greatest love songs of all time.

Speaker 1:
[13:46] This is, by the way, and just for context, one year, I want to talk about this too, one year after The Score, recorded on tour, you know, promoting The Score on tour.

Speaker 2:
[13:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[13:58] Let's hear this. Gotta hear the Neville's on this, the whole lot.

Speaker 2:
[14:44] And you take that same riff and make it work in both.

Speaker 1:
[14:47] I did a party foul, I cut the top off a little bit. But it does have that Mona Lisa, but we heard Aaron Neville, so it's all good, you know.

Speaker 2:
[14:53] How do you, so like, when you're doing that, how does your mind say, how does your mind know, well, this one little riff, it'll be two different songs that are very different. Like, walk me through that.

Speaker 3:
[15:04] Yeah, I would say the best way to understand that is, in high school at 15 years old, my music teacher walks in and I'm playing piano, and I'm doing circle of fifths. And she's like, where do you learn that from? And I was like, oh, I just play every day in church. And she was like, close your eyes, what do you see? And then I said, well, on the right side of my eye, I see 135, and on the left side, I see 15. So I haven't read music, I didn't understand theory. So she was like, tomorrow you're gonna start jazz. And I was like, nah, jazz ain't for me, it's for old people. And I said, I'm gonna be a battle rapper like LL Cool J. I got this thing figured out. And then she was like, you could do both, right? So now once I got into jazz and classical music.

Speaker 1:
[15:49] Cause you were seeing scale degrees, the 135 and the 15.

Speaker 3:
[15:52] Yeah, so the 135 is a triad. I 135 and then the 15 in the left hand.

Speaker 2:
[15:58] The numbers are the notes of a scale.

Speaker 3:
[16:00] Yeah, it's like a-

Speaker 2:
[16:00] Oh, we're up to eight, that's eight notes of a scale.

Speaker 3:
[16:02] And it's like perfect harmony, right? That's the happy one, it's perfect. So I was a happy baby. So in saying that, so I fell in love with a few composers, Gershwin, Cap Calloway, Quincy Jones, Louis Armstrong. Now, what did I get from that? So when you hear, your Mona Lisa, can I get, it's like, so there I go, there I go, there I go, ba ba, right? So in my brain, when I do a composition, long before the AI was I, I have literally seven different versions in my brain.

Speaker 2:
[16:41] Of what this thing can be.

Speaker 3:
[16:42] Of what it is, right? So it's like at the end of the day, I could do a song and I can hear it in a ballad form, and then I can hear it in a house form, or I could hear it in a reggae form. So all that time when I was hearing, I was like, man, I'm obsessed with the meters. I was obsessed with Aaron Everett. I was like, man, if I could get these guys, that would be the R&B version of Mona Lisa.

Speaker 2:
[17:02] Would there ever be another version of Mona Lisa today that you made? And if so, what would it be?

Speaker 3:
[17:06] I don't know, man. I think Burn Up Boy did a version of Mona Lisa. It's his generation.

Speaker 1:
[17:15] We'll be back with more from Wyclef after the break. Going back real quick to that Salaam Rummy story. So you learned, so you, when you heard that cut down version of Nappy Head's remix, were you, you instantly, you weren't upset. You knew this is what we need to be doing. Like this is the right, he heard the magic, he cut it to the right parts and this is what we need to do.

Speaker 3:
[17:40] Yeah, I mean, again, like I understood the math, right? So like my brain, like, it's like infinite math. So, but one plus one equals two. Like he just taught me, Salam taught me like, all right, if you're not going to be in Carnegie Hall every week with your instruments sitting amongst the orchestra and you want to be in the music business, this is how it go, you got to figure it out. Because Quincy Jones was doing the Sinatra and all of that. But then he figured out how to do the other thing. So once Salam did that, my eyes opened up.

Speaker 1:
[18:16] So then what's the... I know you got from the label, you got a bit of an advance, you buy a bunch of equipment, you put it in the basement, the Booker basement as you call it, the studio. When what's the first thing you make then for... Because you produced all but two songs on The Score. So what's the first thing you do for that album?

Speaker 3:
[18:33] Okay. So the equipment, we got it from a garage sale.

Speaker 2:
[18:39] Really? The equipment that was used for all of The Score.

Speaker 3:
[18:42] Okay, yeah. So everything you hear from The Score, me, my cousin, Jerry, and my other cousin, you know, he funded us. He was like the chef, so he had a higher up job. And he funded us. So I only tell you this so you understand how my brain works. So we went to a garage sale music store. Now for my nerds that are watching this, let's just run through three things, which is important. We bought a 456 Ampex rail, big tape machine. So like when you be seeing a Ferdy Mercury and then they cut tapes for the backgrounds, it was very important. The tape machine, you got 24 tracks, right? The 24th is the SMPTE, that's where the noise come in and you try to stay away from that. That was one. We bought, a second thing we bought was an old MCI board. Shout out to Warren Riker, one of the engineers. And this old MCI board just sounded warm. And then we just built a bunch of patch bays around that. Again, we did this ourselves. Like the way Steve Jobs was doing what was in his garage. It was like, why go to pay a million dollars for a Neve board or an SSL when the soul is inside of your brain, inside of your heart? Right. So we just figured it out. So in saying that, that's how, that was the mystery. So we did the score inside of that basement. And you have to imagine this is 30 something years ago. This is 30 years ago dating today. So now a child like my daughter or my niece, they literally can just pop their computer and do music right from wherever they are around the world. So I just say that to show you how advanced and how far ahead we were when it came to the technology.

Speaker 2:
[20:26] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[20:27] What's the first thing you make with all that? You get the patch base set up, you got everything together. What's one of the first things, at least that made the album that you do?

Speaker 3:
[20:36] I would say like along with that, I was obsessed with Pink Floyd the Wall. So I needed something that had space in it. You know what I'm saying? So one of the early joints was the mask. Have you ever worn the mask? This is long before COVID. Rappers have a way of saying shit and then years later, they're going to be like, he was Nostradamus. You called it. The mask was one of the early ones because of the, I don't know if it was like the jazz influence and everything. It was pretty amazing. Shout out to John Forte, who we passed.

Speaker 1:
[21:15] All right.

Speaker 3:
[21:16] He was like, you know, one of the architects with The Score, I would say like The Score, it was like the best of Motown, Stax band. So we just used to horn in. And people always talk about, so we were the refugees. And then on the other side of town, we had the outsiders. And then, so you had two different cliques. The outsiders, Eminem was part of the outsiders. Then Akon was part of the refugees. So when you hear Fuji La, the remix, that's Akon. Are you serious? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, am I, I'm giving y'all trivia. Y'all don't know everything, man. Am I breaking trivia? Yeah. So, so Akon is like my little brother, brother. So we was working on The Score. Akon used to come around and be like, yo man, listen to this, listen to this. And he would be playing his music for me. And, but we're touring. And I was like, so before we finished The Score, I was like, yo, The Score cannot finish without putting this kid on it. And then, so now when you hear the Fuji La remix, Yeah. Ulala, now when you go back and listen, that's Akon on that. So I only say that, so we said that Akon, and then Eminem and them, they crew, Eminem was part of The Outsiders. Then when Eminem had left The Outsiders, he went to Detroit to do what he's doing. When we did The Score, we brought in The Outsiders. So we wanted to show that unity. So on the song Cowboys, it's like the refugees and the outsiders like getting all together, you know, John Forte and everybody. So it was pretty, so there's a whole cool background with the history.

Speaker 2:
[22:52] I just keep thinking about all of the names you're dropping and your incredible record of collaboration. You know, Salam Remy, The Neville Brothers, Akon, Shakira, Whitney Houston, Santana, Destiny's Child. When you are deciding who to collaborate with or fielding requests for collaboration, what is your North Star in deciding who to make music with? Because you have a pretty good track record.

Speaker 3:
[23:22] Yeah, no, thanks. I think that for me, I don't even think of it like a collaboration. I've always thought of it like how I could compose something for someone. So like, for example, like you hear Shakira, Hips Don't Lie. But I did that-

Speaker 2:
[23:35] Everybody heard that song.

Speaker 3:
[23:36] Yeah, but I did that two years before Shakira. It was on a movie called Havana Nights, Dance Like This. So a lot of my, what I do is always based on the mind of a composer. Now, when I write these records, I never think of myself. Because like if for me, when I'm doing my music, I just think too deep. You know what I mean? I'd be like, if I was president, I'll get elected on Friday. They'd be like, that shit ain't going to play on the radio. But when it comes to artists, I'm always a fan and then I would demo the record. And that's how I end up staying on a lot of that stuff.

Speaker 2:
[24:14] How do you know when to say no to a collab?

Speaker 3:
[24:16] Well, the thing is, I always say I have to be able to give something back to the artist, right? And it's deeper than that. You know what I'm saying? I was touched the other day when I received some flowers from Beyoncé, you know? And then she was like, yo.

Speaker 2:
[24:34] I mean, they kind of like, Destiny's Child popped off because of you and that remix.

Speaker 3:
[24:38] But it was ill because as a composer and be understanding that, like I would perform, then I bought them on tour with me, but she would always be on the side of the stage again, right? Watching the same way I would watch the next person. So, right? So it has to be bigger than a collaboration. I've touched people that I felt have got next. Like remember, I said they went from a dream to the young Supremes. That was pretty amazing. The most intimidating person that I've ever been in the studio with. Like dog, my boots was shaking. Whitney Houston.

Speaker 2:
[25:15] Wait, I wanted to ask you about that because I personally think that one of her best songs is My Love Is Your Love.

Speaker 3:
[25:20] Yeah, man.

Speaker 2:
[25:21] I love it so much. Tell me why.

Speaker 3:
[25:24] I ain't going to hold you because it's like, dog, like we in the hood in high school. You feel what I'm saying to you? We're a bunch of bad kids and we like, I believe the children are going to be well. You know what I'm saying to you? It's like, and I'm like, oh, you know Mrs. Whitney, it was just-

Speaker 2:
[25:45] Was she cool in the studio?

Speaker 3:
[25:46] She was amazing. She was, so Clive hit me and I'm like, he's like, yo, Clive Davis, the record for Whitney. You know, as a church boy-

Speaker 2:
[25:56] She's a church girl.

Speaker 3:
[25:57] That's right. Whitney was going through something at the time. Then you just say, how do you know who to collaborate with? So I'm over here and I'm writing this record. If tomorrow is Judgment Day, so I was like, I'm going to write a love note, you know what I mean, to God. So Whitney's writing a love note to God. It's almost like she's in the gates. And then so I send a demo and I'm like waiting. You feel what I'm saying to you? And finally you get the call and then she's like, I don't like it.

Speaker 2:
[26:32] Whitney called you and said, I don't like this demo.

Speaker 3:
[26:33] I don't like it. I love it. Oh. Right? So me and Jerry, one more drop for you.

Speaker 1:
[26:39] I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:
[26:40] Oh my God.

Speaker 3:
[26:41] I hate the song. No, no. I loved it. So in saying that, to me, that was like, you know what I'm saying, like someone like you just idolize. That was probably.

Speaker 1:
[26:51] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[26:53] Hold on.

Speaker 1:
[26:53] But what was it? So we can't just bring Whitney in there. Hold up. So what is it, when you're in the studio with Whitney, how do you approach that? Because like the idea of telling Whitney, yeah, let's do it this way maybe. Let's try. Like I just, how do you even, you know, as a lay person, how do you even think to do that?

Speaker 2:
[27:10] How do you approach it?

Speaker 3:
[27:11] Yeah. I think like, so Whitney, we like, you know, we had, it was like brother and sister in the studio. And I'm the choir director. So I know who's going to sing the lead, the soprano, the, so we have that.

Speaker 2:
[27:24] So the church just gave you that connection.

Speaker 3:
[27:26] So we had that church code connection, right? Where we rocked out. But here's a crazy story. Y'all might have heard it or y'all might not. So I'm doing, I'm doing this.

Speaker 2:
[27:35] I like when you lean in.

Speaker 3:
[27:36] I'm doing it, right? I'm doing this joint. And in the middle of the record, right, it sound like to me that Whitney dropped a note. It sounded flat to me.

Speaker 2:
[27:52] You heard Whitney sounding flat?

Speaker 3:
[27:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:54] That's what I'm talking about. I would die. I don't even know what I would do.

Speaker 2:
[27:57] Do you just think that and say, I can't be right. She can't be flat.

Speaker 3:
[28:01] Bro, listen.

Speaker 1:
[28:02] What did you do?

Speaker 3:
[28:03] I was like, in my ear, I heard something was off. And then, so, you know, as a producer, this is where you have to make what I call the final call, right?

Speaker 2:
[28:14] You got to tell them. You're flat.

Speaker 3:
[28:15] Literally, right. So, you know, I stopped everything, you know what I mean? And what I was telling you, remember, I said my legs started shaking, cold sweat, you know what I'm saying? And she's on the other side. And I'm like, Miss Whitney Houston, you're going to have to do that one again. It came out a little flat.

Speaker 2:
[28:36] What did she say?

Speaker 3:
[28:38] You saw how silent it was in here? Yo, shit got mad silent. And I was like, I'm fucked. And then she goes, baby, it's not flat. I bent the note.

Speaker 2:
[28:55] That.

Speaker 3:
[28:58] Bro, I went back and I listened to the take. And her ear was so advanced that the way I was playing a major and minor, the same way like BB King would in the note inside of it. So that literally, till today, that was one of the things that just blew my mind.

Speaker 2:
[29:19] Yeah, Whitney's not flat.

Speaker 3:
[29:21] Yeah, Whitney was never flat.

Speaker 2:
[29:23] I heard that she really cuts up in the studio. She has fun. She has a jolly old time in the studio, I've heard.

Speaker 3:
[29:27] You know, my experience was one of the best experiences because I had Whitney in the studio. I had Bobby. I had the daughter. I had all of them.

Speaker 2:
[29:35] Bobby Christina.

Speaker 3:
[29:38] And Bobby Brown.

Speaker 2:
[29:39] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[29:40] And then so, in the studio, the illest moment for me was when Whitney was in the booth and she was singing. And her daughter was on the other side with me. And then her mom is singing. Her mom can't hear where she's going. And then she goes, sing mommy.

Speaker 2:
[29:57] Sing mommy because that ends up in the track.

Speaker 3:
[29:59] Yeah, and then so I just sampled it. I sampled her daughter. Whitney ain't even hear that till the final version.

Speaker 2:
[30:06] Wait, so you heard her daughter say, sing mommy.

Speaker 1:
[30:11] Were you recording in the control room?

Speaker 3:
[30:12] So I have the control room, but I still always have mics inside of my main room. But if you're in the control room, Whitney can't hear. But her daughter is cheerleading her mom. She's like, sing mommy. And then I go, wow, mom sing. I said, what you say? And she don't know she's being recorded. So I sat my engineer and she goes, sing mommy. And then I saved that on a sample. And then later, I went up and I did that. So that was pretty, pretty cool.

Speaker 2:
[30:38] Your mind, your mind. I love that.

Speaker 1:
[30:42] That's incredible. One last break and we'll be back with Wyclef Jean. Looking back, you make The Score, it's a huge hit. You're on the road, you're making The Carnival. And for whatever reason, I don't know, the group is sort of not holding. Looking back on it, how would you counsel yourself as Wyclef today to Wyclef back then in terms of how to be a member of the Fugees in that moment?

Speaker 3:
[31:20] Well, I mean, the thing is like way before me, there was people that made the same mistakes as me. You could read all about it. Like it's very clear. Even if I was to go back to speak to the younger Wyclef, the problem is you can't go back and speak to your younger self, right? What you do is within your present self, you're able to give a young one that you see that has that air and on the come up and you're like, yo man, listen. Now, these are listed things that you should not do moving forward. And but at the same time, you see within the universe when the vulnerability of artists and the honesty of artists, right? So these 30 years, there still was a healing process, right? Lauren's my sister, you know, her kids are like, I'm Uncle Wyclef. You feel what I'm saying to you? It's like to be in such amazing place of love, right? Sometimes it takes, because when you're young, right? And you have all these superhero powers, both of us, we got superhero powers. You don't understand the powers as you get older, you start to understand them more and more and more. So I think like from a space of maturity, I wouldn't, I couldn't go back. But what I do is all of the young, I call them superheroes that are gifted, that I work with within the concept, I'm able to give them better advice.

Speaker 2:
[32:47] Yeah. I always think about group dynamics and when a group knows when to try to keep making it work and to let it go and break up. And I always think of the Fuji story in comparison to the saga of Fleetwood Mac. Like the Fugees had drama and then they broke up. Fleetwood Mac had drama and they just stuck together and made an album about it and the drama and the breakups. How do you know in a creative collaborative partnership, if it's worth saying we're going to stick through this and keep making art or we got to break?

Speaker 3:
[33:31] I mean, I would say it's like two different psyches. Like Fleetwood Mac is a different psyche than we were. We grew up within different environments. Then our dramas were completely different than Fleetwood Mac's drama. It's not even like where you get to the point. I don't know if you all been watching. 2025, you've seen the Fugees on tour. If you see us on stage, it's like old school Lakers. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to look at lunch, know the past.

Speaker 1:
[34:04] No look past, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[34:05] Everyone knows the past. But what we do have and what we all have always been conscious of is in order to move the universe forward. Because we always was like, we're not going to be a group, we're going to be a movement. In order to be a movement, they got to be perfect harmony. So the day we don't feel perfect harmony, then the superpowers leave, right? And then you're not able to create that thing because you literally, you know like, yo, there's not a superpower there.

Speaker 2:
[34:37] What does that feeling feel like, that knowledge feel like when you know the powers aren't, like, can you tell? How do you spot it? How do you feel it?

Speaker 3:
[34:44] I'm able to tell now because we've healed. You see what I'm saying? So it's like we've healed, like me and Elle, we good. Like everything is dope. So it's almost like Wolverine, like you shed skin and it's like when you're after the wound and then after the sacrifice, right? And it happens. And I don't think people understand, like we were like, I mean, kid stars, like even before you knew who we were, we already was like off Broadway doing a musical called Club 12. So just to start off like that and for us to be over 30 years and to look like ourselves, still be pretty, bad, funny, sexy and all that, that's not an easy job.

Speaker 1:
[35:31] Yeah, it's not an easy job. I'm struggling right now. I'm like.

Speaker 2:
[35:35] And I bring it up. So I bring up this question of collaborating and knowing when to break and when to stay in it. Because a lot of the folks here at this conference are audio creatives who are making all kinds of shows with people. And those formulations of these teams might change. And there are podcast breakups and make ups and shake ups. And it's like, I wonder if you have any advice for creatives who are working in partnership right now. You know, how to read the tea leaves, stay in it, or like know when to leave it. Like what is Wyclef Jean's creative partnership advice? Biggest piece of advice.

Speaker 3:
[36:11] So my partnership advice to all creatives is like this. It's better you do one thing.

Speaker 2:
[36:20] Say that again.

Speaker 3:
[36:20] The one thing, you'll be surprised how many people have only done one thing. And that one thing, you know, it turns into an iPhone. I'm just giving you an example. You know, the one thing turns into Microsoft, right? You know, the one thing turns into the most amazing podcast. What happens is once the synergy and the harmony is gone, you got to move on because if you continue, then what you're thinking about is something that's for-profit now, opposed to something that you created because in the beginning, you was just like, yo, I want to create a movement to move people. So I always say it's better that you do something, one thing, and you're amazed by it. And then synergy, don't lie, right? And if you don't feel that synergy, you got to keep on moving.

Speaker 2:
[37:12] Okay. So trust the vibes, listen to the vibes.

Speaker 3:
[37:15] Trust the vibes, man.

Speaker 1:
[37:18] You know, there's also, you said Sam gave this wonderful list of people you collaborated with and you mentioned one person backstage who I didn't realize we had a whole project with, who also gave you some advice back 20 years ago.

Speaker 3:
[37:29] King of Pop, man.

Speaker 1:
[37:31] About where we are in today's future. So if you can tell what the King of Pop told you about 20 years ago and how you're moving with that today. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[37:41] So RP to the King of Pop.

Speaker 1:
[37:44] Michael Jackson, by the way. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:47] If you don't know, leave the room.

Speaker 3:
[37:49] Yeah. So I would say again, sometimes I be saying stuff and I be like, you know what I'm saying? Because I don't feel like a lot of people get what I be saying. You know what I'm saying to you? Because I be on another planet. And then so see they laugh and they like, what is he talking about? So I'm in the studio with Michael.

Speaker 2:
[38:13] As one does.

Speaker 3:
[38:16] And Michael is like just real quick. So he's in the studio and it's like. Right, and he said, did you get that? No. The orchestra lives in your head.

Speaker 1:
[38:41] The orchestra lives in your head.

Speaker 3:
[38:43] And as long as you can take what's in your head, you don't even have to say it, you can think it. And the machine will spit it back to you.

Speaker 2:
[38:55] Okay, Michael.

Speaker 3:
[38:56] You know, Clef, I'm working on this other album. It's called Binaural. You ever heard of Binaural? No. He's like, yo, as we move towards the future, people will be able to hear music like it sounds like it's coming from a theater. But it will be like movie music, but they'll be able to hear from their headphones. Fast forward today, where we at today, you have AI, right? And so the thing about it is, you know, backstage, you know, you almost punched me in my face when I told you like, you know, I'm deep into AI.

Speaker 1:
[39:38] But we was going back and forth on that.

Speaker 3:
[39:42] But here go the game. Okay, so there's AI and then there's IA. IA is me, Intelligent Alpha. That's what we all are. Like, we're the source of everything. So at the end of the day, to my 12-year-old niece, arriving today is a new way that the future will do music. There's a new way that the filmmakers will make film, right? There will always be bad actors in a room because within everything, like when the computer wave was going on, there was bad actors. When we was going from no more physical records to digital and into streams, we always gonna have bad actors. I think that our responsibility of as the human is to never lose our soul, right? Because the only thing that the machine will not be able to duplicate is your soul. So inside, when I have like my niece and everything, she does everything with her computer. But when I'm sitting there and she's like, yo, uncle, could you grab that guitar and play something? That physicality of the human, you can't replace that.

Speaker 1:
[40:56] So you're not, you are using AI as a tool, but not scared about it replacing the human creative spirit.

Speaker 3:
[41:05] Well, I'm using it as a tool because how is music created, right? Y'all see the final product, but if I bring y'all into my studio, y'all gonna be like, oh, this looked like Star Trek, right? It's called, there's a lot of equipment and the equipment is called hardware. Then the hardware get converted into software. You know, my DJ friends, we used to carry like 10,000 crates and then it gets converted into the computer. So at the end of the day, you use AI as a tool. I teach my students, I am the master of AI, AI is not the master of I, therefore I am I. So it has to be your slave, right? The problem is if you become the slave of the robot, then it's over for you.

Speaker 2:
[41:46] Yeah. I know we got to go, but I got to just ask you one question as a fan of rap and a lover of rap. I see all these headlines about rap being dead or dying. I hear some of the newer artists today and I'm like, not like it used to be. Wyclef, as a legend of the field, do you feel positively or negatively about the current state of rap?

Speaker 3:
[42:09] I got seven albums coming out starting in April all the way to October. I think that rap is part of hip hop and hip hop, the culture is only getting stronger and stronger all around the world.

Speaker 2:
[42:22] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[42:23] I believe in the future I'm going to do my part and I'm very excited about some of the future young artists that are coming out. We just got to make sure that they get that space. The algorithm can't keep pushing one form of hip hop in America, right? We need that multiple because hip hop in France is sounding like it sounded in the 90s, right? What we're pushing here is the algorithms are just more towards one thing and we have to go back to that eclectic vibe.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] Well, and not just that, it's like I watch and I have this theory. I think that every rapper of note in America right now, the men, the boys aren't having fun.

Speaker 3:
[43:02] Are y'all ready? Watch this. I'm going to get to 21. I'm the one. I know what y'all think and me too. In my game of numbers, there could only be a few. I am the Trinity. Guess the Riddle Kids. One man on two sticks. What's that? The Crucifix. At least that's what they taught me in Sunday school. Forgive my foes. Fives pointed at Pinocchio's nose. Skip to six, go to seven. That's the number of completion. Adam ate the apple so they cast him from the Garden of Eden. Jealousy got him waving his nine. King kills Abel. He a tin man. His heart pumps soil. Two ones ain't enough to make it rain. Microphone check, one, two. Rap lives in my vein. I'm from the Everett. Dudes scrap with they hands. Play Friday the 13th, get Cobra clutch or body slam. But my nephews, they don't use they hands. M14s, M15s, guns and roses pointed at your sweet 16. I was born on October 17. That's the day they killed my leader, Jean-Jacques Dessalines. My momma told me there's monsters under my beard. They're 18s. Think Malcolm X, the 19th hour, by any means. 2020 Vision, they say the good die young. I am the master of AI, AI is not the master of AI. I did this freestyle to show you how I made it past 21.

Speaker 2:
[44:18] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[44:19] All right, man.

Speaker 1:
[44:20] That's it.

Speaker 2:
[44:22] Sam Sanders. Justin Richmond. Wyclef Jean. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1:
[44:39] In the episode description, you'll find a link to a playlist of our favorite Wyclef songs along with some of his new music. Be sure to check out youtube.com/brokenrecordpodcast to see all of our interviews. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rhodes with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tolade. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show, please remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.