transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:00] There's no one like you, and there never will be.
Speaker 2:
[00:03] From the producer Bohemian Rhapsody, Hey, I feel it change.
Speaker 3:
[00:07] There are many legends.
Speaker 2:
[00:09] But there is only one. Michael, rated PG-13, in theaters April 24.
Speaker 4:
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Speaker 5:
[00:45] The creator of the generation-defining show for millennials.
Speaker 6:
[00:49] I think that I may be the voice of my generation, or at least a voice of a generation.
Speaker 5:
[00:56] It's Lena Dunham, sitting down with Andy Cohen. Get your girls together on your tiny furniture and get ready to hear too much from her new book, Famesick, a Memoir. The Radio Andy front row with Lena Dunham, hosted by Andy Cohen, starts now.
Speaker 7:
[01:12] All right. Here we are in New York City at Radio Andy Tower in Midtown Manhattan. Lena Dunham is here. She's got a new book out. It's called Famesick, a Memoir, and it really delivers as a memoir, as a celebrity memoir. It just kind of gives you everything. Congratulations, Lena.
Speaker 1:
[01:33] Thank you so much, Andy. Coming from you, that means everything.
Speaker 7:
[01:38] I really devoured this on vacation, and it really touched me in a whole variety of ways, which we'll get into, and I have so much to talk to you about. And this is the story of how you just absolutely exploded as a talent and came on the scene and all of the side effects that happened as a result of that. And I guess, and I mean, you suffered great physical calamity and illness. Many personal calamities with family and friends and lovers. Your taste in men is just terrible.
Speaker 1:
[02:20] It's so bad. When I married my husband, my, it was after six months, which I don't, the fact that it's worked out is miraculous. We've now been married for almost five years. I don't recommend that anybody try that. But my family came to the wedding and they were like, I was like, you guys seem kind of skeptical. And they were like, what proof had you ever given us that you were gonna make a good decision?
Speaker 7:
[02:42] Your family is so funny in the book. I have to ask though, because the book seems to be, as I walk away from it, it seems to ask the question, was the cost of fulfilling my dreams worth it? And as you look back on it and you put this all down, what is the answer to that, would you say?
Speaker 1:
[03:06] Well, I'm sure these are things you can relate to, as you know, the king of all, the creator of America as we know it, which is that you have these things happen to you beyond your wildest dreams, where you're getting to live your passion, and you never want to complain about that, because I know so many artists who haven't had that chance. But at the same time, you are isolated, and that makes it harder to let people in when something challenging is happening. People may not take it as seriously because they, because if you have the kind of resources and seemingly the attention for it to be fixed. And now that I look back, you know, my mother said this thing at one point, I think it's in the book where I was like, I'm so glad you're my mother. And she said, it could have been no other way. And that's really stayed with me. And there have been many challenging moments. But there have also been so many things that have happened where it could have been no other way.
Speaker 7:
[04:02] OK, so let's talk about this sudden fame because your movie Tiny Furniture came out South by Southwest. You immediately are signed by an agent. And you are brought to LA. HBO. You pitch in the room the idea for girls. They buy it. They buy a pilot and then a series. And it all just rolls out. But as a result, so much happens. And the initial fame, the way that you write about it just absolutely struck me. And so I want to just dissect it a little bit. First of all, your friendships. You have this group of old friends and they really changed. Talk to me about that because they viewed you differently and it was this weird cycle.
Speaker 1:
[04:55] Well, I think they... So I had an amazing group of girlfriends, people that I've known since I was two and three years old. And I got out of college and we like, we all worked at the same baby clothing store. Boo and the duck. Rest in peace, boo and the duck. Like we would literally put on the size eight year old dresses and bows in our hair and then like fight about who got to sell Gwyneth Paltrow a cashmere baby tank top. And we were paid $100 a day in cash and we thought we were the richest, we thought we were the cast of Sex and the City. Love it. And they were in all of my work. Shout out Isabel, Joanna, Audrey, Sarah. And we had this kind of beautiful time of just bombing around. And then the show happened and they were all part of putting tiny furniture together. They all came with me to South by Southwest. But then suddenly, I'm in Los Angeles for these extended periods of time. Then I'm on set every day from 5 a.m. to 8 p.m. On the weekends, I'm finishing rewrites or edits. At the same time, there's a public conversation. And they're beautiful, thoughtful people, but it creates a distance.
Speaker 7:
[06:04] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[06:05] It creates a distance that is hard to talk about and hard to bridge. And also the thing that happens, which I'm sure you felt, is you're deep in work and people's lives are continuing.
Speaker 7:
[06:14] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[06:15] And you're missing, like, not just the big moments, but you're missing the small moments. And inside jokes form without you. And people hook up and break up, and you don't even meet the guy that they're seeing. And suddenly, you're on the outside looking in. But what's so beautiful is time has passed, the show ended, and I had a little book party, and the girls were all in the front row. And our friend, Rell, was like, we had a show, we had a web show called Delusional Downtown Divas. It's very niche, but for anyone who sees it, we were really trying something. And he was like, the Delusional Downtown Divas were in the front row making so much trouble, and I had to shush them up. And it was just this beautiful thing where we're like, now, you know, they're mothers, they have lives and jobs. And I get to witness that, and they welcome-
Speaker 7:
[07:02] You all came back.
Speaker 1:
[07:04] Yeah, we came back. And it's, and you come back in a different configuration, but it's really beautiful because there are things, I can say one word and they just understand. Like I can, you know, text Isabel the words, my sweet!0, and no one will ever, besides us, understand what that means.
Speaker 7:
[07:23] You also write about, and it was just, it was really just interesting to me. You write about your parents. Now your parents are artists. Girls comes out, and all of a sudden, you're all being called Nepo babies, first of all.
Speaker 1:
[07:43] The word didn't exist yet. So we would just, Gawker, another rest in peace on with Boo and the Duck.
Speaker 7:
[07:49] You know what? Don't rest in peace.
Speaker 1:
[07:51] We'd like them to rest in peril, but Gawker would write like, this TV show, and then just instead of our names, say daughter of Brian Williams, daughter of David Mamet, and we were, it was sort of like the first time that particular conversation was happening.
Speaker 7:
[08:08] And it was being weaponized against you. And your parents who had kind of lived these very proud lives, you were by no means a person of great means growing up.
Speaker 1:
[08:21] There is something to be said for having cultural capital, and there's something to be said for having parents who are in the creative world and know that that's a possibility. And that is a kind of privilege. But I think it was very confusing to my parents because they were like, we're working artists and we're so proud that we've kind of pulled together this life. And suddenly, someone traced that my father is like fourth cousins with one member of the Tiffany family because, let's face it.
Speaker 7:
[08:50] We're all cousins. We're all from the same shtetl. We've seen Finding Your Roots.
Speaker 1:
[08:55] I've been on Finding Your Roots. We've done it.
Speaker 7:
[08:57] I'm Scarlett Johansson's cousin, but am I?
Speaker 1:
[09:00] That's the question. Glenn Close and Larry David. But am I really getting anything from that?
Speaker 7:
[09:05] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[09:05] And they traced like fourth cousins of the Tiffany's and something. It was like a member of the Tiffany family. And I was like, I didn't even know this was a fact.
Speaker 7:
[09:13] But your parents were like, were really going through it because they're like, our narrative of our story is being taken away and co-opted by something totally out of our control. And how guilty did that make you feel? And I mean, you were just walking around with all of this spilkes.
Speaker 1:
[09:36] Thank you for using the word spilkes.
Speaker 7:
[09:37] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[09:39] You summoned in my ancestors and they're delighted to be with us.
Speaker 7:
[09:42] Right.
Speaker 1:
[09:43] I am a guilty person by nature.
Speaker 7:
[09:45] I read that. I just feel for you.
Speaker 1:
[09:47] Thank you.
Speaker 7:
[09:48] I really do.
Speaker 1:
[09:49] It's happening. It's all happening. My brother inherited it too. We all were like, my father says it seems like you walk around like you killed a man in Reno just to watch him die. Like, what are you doing? But that feeling of suddenly not being... People would say your parents must be so proud. And they are proud of me because they're proud that I make my work. They're proud of when I make healthy personal decisions, which I sometimes do now. But the idea... Like, my father was interviewed in The New Yorker and they said, like, what do you feel about your daughter's success? He was like, I would not wish having a famous child on my worst enemy. And people found that dramatic, but he suddenly, you know, a review of his show is Lena Dunham's father puts on an art show and nobody wants to be contextualized via somebody else. Of course. Like, someone doesn't want to be... Women don't want to be called wife of, no one wants to be a plus one. And so it wasn't about a lack of love, but it definitely... My family and my nuclear family is extremely close and it created kind of a distance that was hard to discuss in a healthy way.
Speaker 7:
[11:00] You also had this reaction to Fame that reminds me of... I'm a student of the great Oprah Winfrey and I remember when she first became famous, she would, after every taping of every episode of her show, she greeted and took a picture with every single audience member of her show and you had this guilt walking around where anyone who said hello to you, you would spend 15 minutes with them, you would make yourself late to everything.
Speaker 1:
[11:28] Everything. I'd show up and I'd go, I'm sorry I'm 45 minutes late, but three different people stopped me in the street and I had to, you know, hear the story of how they moved to New York and now they're in a kind of complicated dynamic with this guy.
Speaker 7:
[11:39] Right.
Speaker 1:
[11:39] And then you show up to lunch and your friends are like, lunch is over.
Speaker 8:
[11:43] Right, right.
Speaker 1:
[11:44] And so you're not, you know, I saw this, my friend sent me this meme that's like, here are people pleaser, we'll name three people that you've pleased.
Speaker 7:
[11:51] Wow.
Speaker 1:
[11:51] And that's the whole thing of it is if you're walking around trying to make everybody happy, nobody's happy.
Speaker 7:
[11:57] Well, here's who you made happy. All of the bitches and trolls online.
Speaker 1:
[12:04] I did, I gave them a lot to talk about.
Speaker 7:
[12:06] You really did. And you say, you say, Vulture had run an article about the face of shock glee I made whenever I encountered a celebrity Lena Dunham mouth wide in awe next to Ben Affleck, Mia Farrow, a cast member from the audience. It was noted that I walked in heels like a baby giraffe, that I should have had the money by now to fix my teeth, that I wasn't as ugly as everyone said, that I was uglier. My acceptance speeches were dissected. Did I have a lack of humility or was I feigning too much? Was I fun and real or messy and exhausting? Did I have a bad case of they like me, they really like me syndrome? Or could I be forgiven for being shocked? And that is the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 1:
[12:50] I wish you'd read my audio book.
Speaker 7:
[12:53] Oh, thanks.
Speaker 1:
[12:54] Instead of me.
Speaker 7:
[12:56] But you responded to everything and you read everything, which broke my heart.
Speaker 1:
[13:04] Yeah. I mean, I certainly don't do that now. I certainly have a filter, not because I don't want to receive all the lovely things, but because, you know, there's that saying, like, if you take the good feedback, you're going to have to take the bad too.
Speaker 7:
[13:17] That's what I tell all the housewives.
Speaker 1:
[13:19] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[13:19] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[13:20] By the way. And do they listen? No, they can't.
Speaker 7:
[13:23] Right. No.
Speaker 1:
[13:23] But I think it's because no one can really prepare themselves. Now we live in a culture where everybody knows what it's like to be commented on and anyone can put themselves in that kind of situation. Like the veil between what was once a Hollywood experience and everyone's experience has fully collapsed. The housewives helped with that. And I'm not mad at them for it. I think it's like, I actually have this whole theory that like reality TV kind of democratized celebrity in a way that's really beautiful and great for women and queer people and created a place for them to be themselves and for be able to witness themselves. And I, that's why I will defend it to the death. I love it. I will write a thesis on it for you. That being said, I think everybody knows what that's like. And the idea at that time, firstly, I thought it was part of my job. I was like, this is my show. I'm a producer. I have to know what people think. Part of my job is to respond to people because television is a democratic medium. But also, I was a young girl who had stories about myself that now these comments were affirming. And then you look for a comment that's then going to kind of fix that. And it's like a cycle that you would be in with a kind of abusive partner where you're constantly going, okay, are you giving me a little bit so I can stay? Are you giving me a little bit so I can stay? And I can only speak to that because I've done that too.
Speaker 7:
[14:51] Yeah. But how interesting that you were being, girls was being, you know, lauded creatively as this second coming and as a voice of a new generation and all this stuff. Yet there you are in the mud with the trolls.
Speaker 1:
[15:09] Yeah. It's interesting because this was also a moment when social media was really coming to prominence. We didn't have any language about it. I posted my first Instagram from the DMV trying to get my learners permit right after we shot the Girls pilot. I had just joined Twitter because a cute boy that I knew used to post his lunch on it. Right. Hello, Chris Wells. We see you. Suddenly, it was the place where it went from being a fun conversation with friends, to all these people have arrived at the party. I always compare it to like, you have a dinner party and you're like, okay, guys, everybody come at six, you've set the table, you've let everybody into the apartment, and then it's like everyone's like, you know what? We think that we're just going to stay. We live here now. We live in your house.
Speaker 7:
[15:58] Right.
Speaker 1:
[15:59] And you're like, well, I didn't say that the party ended at any particular time.
Speaker 7:
[16:03] Right.
Speaker 1:
[16:04] I didn't really give anyone instructions. So I guess I just have to like put out beds and right. We're all roommates now. Yes.
Speaker 7:
[16:10] Yes. Yes. Jezebel, which was meant to be a feminist site, by the way, by the friendly people who brought us Gawker.
Speaker 1:
[16:20] Correct.
Speaker 7:
[16:20] They put out a bounty on unretouched images of your Vogue cover, which they wound up publishing.
Speaker 1:
[16:28] Well, they offered $10,000 and you can get anything on the black market if you announce that $10,000 is available. And the funny thing was that the retouching was so oddly minor. They made this sort of like this like gift that kind of flashed between the retouched photo and the unretouched photo and like removed a shadow from my eye. Like they didn't get what they wanted, which was like they've shrunk this girl in half and given her a new nose. But the feeling was that even the people who are supposed to be on your side, because my understanding of feminism, having grown up in a house with a mother who was, my mom was part of like Women's Action Coalition, which was the downtown women's group that went to the capital and protested and held hands around abortion clinics. And my understanding of feminism was like part of it is you support other women, even when they make decisions that you don't necessarily agree with because we're supporting each other's right to self-actualization. And then suddenly, you're in this world of like kind of competitive corporatized feminism and you go, oh, even the people who are supposed to be kind of, who I felt like my job was like, I'm down for you. Even if you're not down for me, you go, there's no space for me here anymore.
Speaker 7:
[17:50] Well, so now that we are talking about feminism and you brought up the Housewives earlier, I do want to go on a little tangent because I debated unsuccessfully Gloria Steinem on Watch What Happens Live about 10 years ago when I was like, I was like, you called the Housewives a minstrel show.
Speaker 1:
[18:07] I was with her on stage when she did it.
Speaker 7:
[18:09] Oh, really?
Speaker 1:
[18:10] Yes, I was with her on stage. We were doing an event and she took you to task and I sat there and I was like, I'm in the middle of two people I really expect right now and it's the one time in my life I ever shut the fuck up.
Speaker 7:
[18:21] Right. Well, I didn't shut the fuck up and I talked to her about it on the show and the truth of the matter is I would advise anyone who wants to debate Gloria Steinem, maybe sit it out, especially if you're a man.
Speaker 1:
[18:32] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[18:34] But I have always felt in my heart as a feminist myself. Yeah. And I believe that is a feminist show. And I and I know Roxanne Gay agrees and Camille Polly and a lot of great feminists that I know.
Speaker 1:
[18:49] Once that I looked like a cup of pudding. Wow.
Speaker 7:
[18:52] So there you go.
Speaker 1:
[18:54] But I agree with her. And you know what? I support her right to say I look like a cup of pudding because that's what feminism is to me.
Speaker 7:
[19:01] But so but do you why do you think that The Housewives is a feminist show?
Speaker 1:
[19:05] Okay. So there has been I could talk about this for days, but I'm going to try to do it succinctly.
Speaker 7:
[19:10] I'm so interested.
Speaker 1:
[19:12] I have always felt like there are these things that people think are distinctly female. Gossip. Gossip was actually a way for women to protect themselves in villages of men who were, you know, violent. And it was a way for them to like in the village where there was complete power, the way to fight the patriarchy was a whisper network of like, maybe don't go into that hut with Nathan. He's not great. You know, whoever it would be. Nathan is an invented name. I don't know any problematic. Nathan's no one take that anywhere. And so like gossip was the way to let people know.
Speaker 7:
[19:48] Information.
Speaker 1:
[19:48] Information that they needed to stay alive.
Speaker 7:
[19:51] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[19:52] And there was also this idea that sort of like women were supposed to kind of keep their girly conversations, you know, in their Tupperware parties. And then the serious men could come out and make the work. And I feel like when the Housewives came on, this kind of secret female language was suddenly everywhere. And there is a real power to seeing women interact in a way that I believe is natural. I know some people, I've debated my husband, he's always like, they're acting. And I'm like, it's so much more complicated than that. But I think that we now get to see this thing that was always kept behind closed doors in front of us. And if you think about it, it's also like, it's the best job for a woman who is noisy and messy and complicated. It's the best place for a queer person to get their quips in. And I think that we get to see an approximation of real life. It's certainly a little bit aspirational. That was sort of always kept behind closed doors by men who thought they had better things to say. Uh-huh.
Speaker 7:
[21:06] Very good. Thank you. Okay. I like to hear that.
Speaker 1:
[21:09] And I'm still not going to debate Gloria Steinem on it, but I will tell you what I think.
Speaker 7:
[21:13] Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5:
[21:15] Andy returns of Lena Dunham in a moment.
Speaker 7:
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Speaker 5:
[23:21] We're back with the Radio Andy's front row with Lena Dunham.
Speaker 7:
[23:25] We are back in New York City talking to Lena Dunham about her outstanding memoir, Famesick. I was telling you beforehand, I think the book is very fair. And it's all from your own point of view. And if there's someone who falls or is brought down a peg in the book, it is always you. And it reads very repertorial to me in terms and factual. And there are three relationships in the book that you talk about that are really interesting, that I think that I came away having no judgment in any negative way about Jenny, your writing partner, about Jack Antonoff, your ex, and about Adam Driver, your co-star. What you each did with each other was a success. I mean, the show you created with Adam Driver, the show you created with Jenny, the relationship you had with Jack, it's very sweet. And I'm wondering, did you send the galley to any of them? Did you give any of them a heads up? Talk to me about that process.
Speaker 1:
[24:37] One of the reasons, thank you for saying that, and it was really important to me, and one of the reasons that I worked on the book for as long as I did. The first book I wrote in nine months, this book took almost nine years, and it was because I wanted to make sure that I had real perspective on everything. I spent time, I looked at photos, I looked at emails, I looked at text messages. There's a really wonderful book by someone who was a mentor of mine, David Carr, called The Night of the Gun, and he talks about his own experience of addiction. But he's a reporter, so he goes at it as a reporter, really trying to look at like what, if there can be a truth, because there was so much that he didn't remember and that was clouded by his experience of his addiction, what is that truth? I really wanted to take the time to put this down. I make it very clear that these are my recollections, but I have worked really hard to verify in every way that I can, and to also do it thoughtfully and with intention in a way that's hopefully loving and fair, because there are people that I loved a lot, and I think that never goes away, even if someone's not in your life in the same way anymore. I made sure that everyone who was involved either had a heads up from me or through a mutual party who we both trust, and there are also a few people who I offered to let read who didn't want to, which I think is absolutely their right.
Speaker 7:
[26:07] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[26:08] And it was important to me that nobody feel that I was sort of like coming from the left and coming from not the left, like politically, the left, like I'm surprising you from around a corner.
Speaker 7:
[26:21] Or that you're coming after someone, it just doesn't come off that way at all.
Speaker 1:
[26:25] I'm so glad that you feel that, and that was deeply important to me because I think one of the things that you learn in sobriety, and I've been sober for more than eight years now, is-
Speaker 7:
[26:34] Congratulations.
Speaker 1:
[26:35] Thank you. How great. It's been a real gift. And what you learn is to look at your own part in dynamics. And if there was a common denominator in these challenging relationships, it was me, babe.
Speaker 7:
[26:48] It reads that way. I'm the problem, it's me.
Speaker 1:
[26:50] I'm the problem, it's me. When that song came out, I was like, yep, yep, that's it.
Speaker 7:
[26:54] Yes, Taylor.
Speaker 1:
[26:55] Yes, Taylor. I mean, always yes, Taylor, but definitely yes, Taylor here. And I'm the problem, it's me. And also it's about what you cook up with people. Like what two people cook up together is not necessarily an indication of who they will be in any other relationship in their life. But there is an alchemy that is created, that is complicated and magical. And just as I talk about the challenges, I mean, I say like, I learned more from working across from Adam Driver than I've learned in my entire life as an actor. It was the only time I ever felt like a real actor.
Speaker 7:
[27:26] And the amazing thing about that relationship is that when you say goodbye, which I thought was such a beautiful scene, you say goodbye and you rode in the van together after your last scene, I think. And you say to him, I'm so sorry that maybe this didn't always work out or we didn't see eye to eye or whatever.
Speaker 1:
[27:50] And he says to you, he says like it was exactly like it needed to be.
Speaker 7:
[27:57] And I thought that was so beautiful.
Speaker 1:
[27:59] I did too.
Speaker 7:
[27:59] And I think that for me, what resonated is that it was a testament to when you're creating something, when you're creating a piece of art, sometimes the road getting there is messy and horrible and whatever.
Speaker 1:
[28:16] Completely.
Speaker 7:
[28:16] But him and you say in that scene, you say, wow, maybe his Jedi training really paid off. Really paid off.
Speaker 1:
[28:24] Really paid off. But, you know, he has a great depth. It's very clear from his work. And I think that's the truth, which is to make something, you have to be able to be vulnerable. You have to be able to bear more challenging, ugly parts of yourself. And obviously everybody has to feel safe at work and feel cared for. They also have to feel safe enough to be complicated.
Speaker 7:
[28:46] And that relationship on the show was so complicated, which is why I think that really resonated for me that he said it was as it needed to be. It almost made me think that was a method to the madness.
Speaker 1:
[28:59] Well, I think also two actors have different ways of working. And my way of working is like, I'm just like chatting, Gavin asking you about your kids, like flipping my hair and then suddenly it's action and we're going. And that's some people really have to be in it in a different way. And now that I work primarily as a writer and a director, I work with so many different actors. And I feel almost like my job as directors to figure out what each person needs and how they need me to show up and then show up that way. But previous to making Girls, I'd made movies inside my house that starred in my literal family. So I knew how they were going to show up and they knew how I was going to show up. And it was messy sometimes, but that's my mom, so it can be messy. And then you are, you know, the first day that I went out on set on Girls, Alison and I had a scene and I was so nervous. And suddenly when you shoot on soundstage, three bells ring to let everybody know, like be quiet, we're going. And I heard it and I went, thank God, it's the fire alarm. I can leave, I don't have to do this. And they were like, this script was like, honey, it's not that you're gonna hear that a lot. And so I was really learning on the job.
Speaker 7:
[30:06] You were, and talk to me about being the boss. Some, suddenly, you were how old, season one of Girls?
Speaker 1:
[30:15] I was 23 when we wrote the pilot, when I wrote the pilot and I was 24 when, just turned 24 when we shot it.
Speaker 7:
[30:20] Now you've got hundreds of people who you're responsible for. You're their boss. You're supposed to know what.
Speaker 1:
[30:28] I'm doing, I mean, the first time I interviewed people, I said to a first AD, I was interviewing for a job. What does a first AD do? Because I'd never had one before. And people were so generous with me and helped me. I mean, I remember every single person who helped me. My first AD, Mark McGann, he came to our show at BAM last night. And he was like, I remember from the book, that first sex scene. And honey, I was running your robe out to you every two minutes going, cover up. Like I was, he was teaching me like, you're allowed to put your clothes on between the scenes.
Speaker 7:
[30:58] You never got that, did you?
Speaker 1:
[31:00] I know, you know what? I did start putting the robe on between. I didn't keep it on when the camera was rolling. But I did understand that when you're then going to give notes to the camera operator, you should be clothed. You should be clothed.
Speaker 7:
[31:13] You write in detail about your working relationship with your creative partner, Jenny Conner, and all that she taught you, and the intense partnership and friendship that that was. I have to ask, just because I'm the reunion guy, and I always want to know where you are now, where are the two of you now? Would you say?
Speaker 1:
[31:39] I would say that relationship, and I love that you're the reunion guy. That's such a good thing to be in life.
Speaker 7:
[31:45] I love it. It's great.
Speaker 1:
[31:47] You're amazing at it, and you remember when I pitched you that I wanted to make a dramatic version of The Vanderpump Reunion in which the great actors of our time performed. Jennifer Lawrence is our animatics.
Speaker 7:
[32:00] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[32:01] Like, you know, Andrew Scott is Tom Sandoval.
Speaker 7:
[32:04] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[32:05] Tilda Swinton is Lisa Vanderpump.
Speaker 7:
[32:07] She called me in a fever pitch about this.
Speaker 1:
[32:10] And he was really generous, but it was also like the middle of, like it was like the middle of the writer's check. It was like the minute we're back, we're doing this. And then he was like, let me check in with some people, but he couldn't have been lovelier. And I do still think it would be remarkable. And maybe we do it for the 10 year reunion.
Speaker 7:
[32:25] Well, maybe we do it for Summer House right now.
Speaker 1:
[32:28] Honey.
Speaker 7:
[32:28] Are you watching?
Speaker 1:
[32:29] Of course.
Speaker 7:
[32:30] What do you think?
Speaker 1:
[32:32] I'm a girl's girl. That's, that's, and I, one of the few boundaries that I have never crossed is hooking up with a friend's ex. I just can't. It's very hard for me to get behind. That being said, you know, here's my thought. If it's a love affair forever and they're going to have children together, they're going to have a beautiful life, time will tell. Ciara is a beautiful girl. She's a very smart person. She's going to find something that is so much better for her. She did not need to be with that street wear boy. And let's hope that they're together forever and they have five beautiful children. Or maybe they don't want children, maybe they just have dogs, but that it proves to be worth what it has done. What do you think about that take?
Speaker 7:
[33:18] I think that's a great take. But I think I just thought it was such a big swing of them to say, we're giving this a shot. I was like, wow, that is the swing that I didn't expect. Like, yes, I expected them to come out and say, we banged.
Speaker 1:
[33:34] Yes, we banged and we're sorry. But actually, like, we banged and we think that this could be love. That's the thing that makes me go, listen, if you're willing to take the heat and you want to stay in the kitchen, then maybe this is real. And you know what I did like? That I saw a photograph of her and her ex-husband hugging with their dogs because that made me feel like I like when a man can go, you've made some complicated decisions, but I still ride for you. So I respect him.
Speaker 7:
[34:00] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[34:00] I respect him.
Speaker 7:
[34:01] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[34:02] But yeah, I'll do any you call me.
Speaker 7:
[34:04] So maybe that's maybe we should think about that.
Speaker 1:
[34:06] I will be on the first plane. And right. And you know, we will have Kiki Palmer in her Ciara outfit ready to go.
Speaker 8:
[34:15] And she's casting.
Speaker 7:
[34:17] She would play West. Let's see this out.
Speaker 8:
[34:21] Barry Kean, OK, you like who's who's Amanda?
Speaker 1:
[34:28] Mikey Madison, you like this. I could do I could go all day. I could go all day. And her ex-husband, Kyle Cook, Kyle Cook.
Speaker 7:
[34:40] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[34:41] Is going to be played by Austin Butler.
Speaker 7:
[34:45] All right. Wow. Very good.
Speaker 1:
[34:48] OK, so back to Jenny Connor.
Speaker 7:
[34:50] I want to know where the two of you are.
Speaker 1:
[34:54] It was one of the most important relationships of my life. Clearly, it defined, you know, we had an eight year partnership. It defined so much. I have so much respect for her and gratitude. And, you know, I think one of the reasons that I attached so ferociously was also that these other relationships, families, friendships were splintering. And this person became like my my central focus. And I don't think it's. I understand now that we have to, you know, diversify our friendships. You cannot ask one person to be everything. We're not in touch. But I am. I watch her. She's working on the great show. Nobody wants this. I watch. I cheer. So, you know, sometimes you just have a love, love someone from a distance.
Speaker 7:
[35:36] Yeah. Did you send her the manuscript?
Speaker 1:
[35:41] I let someone know that it was coming.
Speaker 7:
[35:43] Did you? Am I getting this wrong? Because I was reading this part late last night. Did she say to you at one point, like, just wait a minute before you write this story? Because she knew you were going to write it. Yeah.
Speaker 8:
[35:57] She knows you so well.
Speaker 1:
[35:59] She knew me so well. She knows me so well. And everyone also had seen me live my life and then immediately regurgitate it into the show for years. That was my, I mean, that's why they bought me. So my methods were very clear. And I think what she was saying was the best advice, which was like, give it a second, what you feel now and what you feel. And you know, when that happened, I was 31 years old, I'm about to be 40. So the perspective that I have on it now, it's really interesting because I remember this kind of messy youth and having these really amazing older female friends who I thought like, they're not really that interested in hearing about the, you know, machinations of my relationship with this boy who only wears mesh running shorts. And then you become older and you're like, yeah, because you've got a job and a family and aging parents. And being a woman is like obligation after obligation. And you maybe don't, you know, now I have younger friends who will tell me about their lives. And you're like, okay, that's a tempest in a teapot. And you're like, come over when you've calmed down a little bit. But I didn't, you've got to age to know that.
Speaker 7:
[37:11] Well, I thought she comes off very wise in the book.
Speaker 1:
[37:15] She is very wise.
Speaker 7:
[37:16] Yeah. I mean, she does. And it seems like towards the end, when you're getting sober and you have your hysterectomy, I mean, and it's what she's giving you back is kind of, I maybe can't handle this anymore or right now.
Speaker 1:
[37:34] If I was an adult with two children and a partner and a job, I would also say, like, go to the people whose kind of job it is to take care of you. I was given a different job, which is to make a show with you. And so that is like, I, my father likes to say, I've never met a boundary I can't erode and I am learning them. I am learning and but I literally have to look at my business partner, Michael, and be like, do I say yes or no to this? And he's like, honey, you say no. Like it's I am learning from watching other people.
Speaker 7:
[38:07] By the way, as someone who always said yes, you said yes to everything. And another thing that you write about fame is that you find out when you get famous just how many things people need from you and how many things people ask from you. And you had a folder in your inbox.
Speaker 8:
[38:24] I still do just e-mails of people asking my Gmail tag favors.
Speaker 7:
[38:28] Right. You said yes to everything.
Speaker 8:
[38:30] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[38:31] Now I find it and I have a commencement address coming up. And it's one of the things in the thing. Learn to say no because and you don't ever send me your commencement address.
Speaker 1:
[38:41] I want to take that in.
Speaker 7:
[38:42] Yeah. Will you rewrite it?
Speaker 1:
[38:44] I'd love to. I'll pitch you all the jokes you want.
Speaker 7:
[38:47] But saying no and you don't have to give a reason for saying no. You can say no to something and say, I can't. Have you learned that?
Speaker 1:
[38:55] The idea that no is a complete sentence.
Speaker 7:
[38:57] Right.
Speaker 1:
[38:58] Blew my mind because I was always thought I had to be like, no, because actually my dog isn't feeling that way. And then people are like, what the fuck? Like, and I say to my friends all the time, if I ever ask a favor, I say, I want you to know that you can say no, I am a safe person to practice your know on. You are not going to dent my ego, you are not going to cause me to question our dynamic. You can say no, because you don't feel like it. You can say no, because you are tired and you don't have to tell me. And that's like, that's my thing that I am working on and I am getting better. My husband is an expert at saying no man. He loves no. No is his first response to everything. And so he is a very, he is a very great asset for me. The only thing he can't say no to is bringing more cats into our house.
Speaker 2:
[39:46] Okay. Well, that's fair.
Speaker 5:
[39:48] Andy and Lena are just getting to the good stuff. More in two.
Speaker 7:
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Speaker 5:
[41:23] Welcome back to Andy Cohen's front row events with Lena Dunham.
Speaker 7:
[41:27] We're back in New York City with Lena Dunham. She wrote a book called Famesick, a memoir. You write a lot about your medical history that really went south after the pressure of everything. And first of all, how are you? How are you physically?
Speaker 1:
[41:50] I feel great. I mean, I what I say about chronic illness is, you know, some people live in like a sleek new apartment where there's, you know, nest air conditioning and everything works. And I live in an old British house where something is always leaking. And there's always a draft and someone is always there. Some like strange man is always there plugging up a hole. And that's chronic illness is like there. There will always be things that need handling. Yeah. But learning to say no. Surrounding myself. It's not that my the people I'm surrounded myself with are incredible. But also, I have had the opportunity to tell them this is how I work. This is how I work best. These are the things that I need. They give me those accommodations. And I think when I was younger, I thought that if I asked for those things, that I would sort of be deemed deficient and another person. And Hollywood does give that impression. Everything is an emergency. There is no contingency plan. And if you are sick or you are struggling and you can't make it, you are truly giving 250 other people a massive headache.
Speaker 7:
[43:03] And that, by the way, is that led to just absolute terrible things.
Speaker 1:
[43:09] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[43:10] And your inability to advocate for yourself and also to delegate. I mean, it just, but it was impossible to delegate when you were writing the whole thing.
Speaker 1:
[43:23] I mean, the fact is, it's like people will say to me, like, how did you balance those three jobs? I'm like, I didn't. I had no other life for, you know.
Speaker 7:
[43:30] You were living without a net.
Speaker 1:
[43:32] I was living without a net. And I remember thinking like, here are the things that you don't have to do. If you don't eat, sleep, exercise, or, you know, respond to your family members when they call you during the day, you've got a lot of time to get things done. And now I understand that all of those things are requirements for me to then be able to go and do what I have to do. And that I can't do everything.
Speaker 7:
[43:56] And I have to, I also want to make something clear, which is I don't want people to think that this book is a, whoa, is me book. It's not a, you're not complaining about the fame. You're not complaining. You're not complaining about the success. You're not complaining about any opportunity you were given. It is just the story of what happened. And I think that's great. And I think that people, I don't think people should misread what it is because that's exactly what it isn't.
Speaker 1:
[44:27] That means a lot to me. And I did feel grateful for every opportunity. And that's why I grabbed every single one. And I also sort of felt like I was on supermarket sweep, which is I was like, I better get as much as I can and have all the corn flakes and get out of here. And I also think it's important to say that it's not that the people who are surrounding me were mistreating me or I didn't know how to say I am struggling in a way that requires that I step back from my end. And I didn't want to step back because the show was my life and it felt like it was my chance to truly express myself. I care so much, still care so much about those cast members. The opportunity to write for them was a gift. And so I was just trying to hold on because it was what I loved, but also anyone who's chronically ill, anyone who is a person knows that you have to make decisions. We don't have all of the time in the world here. You think that you do when you're in your 20s, and everyone reaches a point where their body starts to slow down. But I just hit that point much sooner than some of my peers. I'm sure it did.
Speaker 7:
[45:31] It makes me wonder though, given where you are now and the clarity that you have, and the peace that you have, which I'm so happy for. I just rooted for you through this book.
Speaker 1:
[45:42] You are always so good to me.
Speaker 7:
[45:44] Well, but it just... I'm just so happy to see you, and I'm so happy you're doing so well.
Speaker 1:
[45:51] Thank you, Andy.
Speaker 7:
[45:52] But it does make me think you've got to write a girls movie. I mean, it is so obvious that it's now been 15 years. You have to do it. They're all turning 40. I mean...
Speaker 1:
[46:06] I would love to. And I have to say, I got a little plot line in my brain. I do. Like, it's impossible not to think about where they are now. And like, I will text with... I have a chain, a new chain with the girls and Andrew called Survivors of the Crack-cident. And we, you know, will like... Jemima will pop in with like the best take on like, you know, Jess is really into RFK Jr. And you're like, of course she is. Of course she is. She does not want anyone getting vaccines. She is pissed and I just see them and I also like, those are my muses. So I think it's an obvious thing and we will, you know, we only want to, we don't want to come back to the party too early. We want to be appropriately missed.
Speaker 7:
[46:48] But it feels right on time. I can't tell you.
Speaker 1:
[46:51] From your lips to God's ears. What did Miley Cyrus say that she was like, she announced there was a Hannah Montana reunion. So they had to do it.
Speaker 7:
[46:57] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[46:57] Well, there's a girl's movie, HBO Max.
Speaker 7:
[47:03] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[47:04] I would be delighted. And I would be probably a much more fun person to work with now.
Speaker 7:
[47:09] No doubt. Well, that's part of the reason why I want you to do it. Because I feel, I look at where you are right now and I feel like, wow, this would be the experience that you didn't have when you tried to write the finale.
Speaker 1:
[47:20] It would be magical. And, you know, Andrew Rannells, who's one of my dear, dear friends, he came and interviewed me last night in Brooklyn. He had a ball. Yeah. And we got in bed together in Brooklyn, which is always cozy. Yeah. And he was saying to me, like, when I read the book, it made me sad because I thought we were having so much fun. And I said, wow, I said we were having fun. Like every time I was with you, it was a joy and a pleasure and like pure happiness to just be playing together. Yeah. It was the stuff that was off screen that was hard. Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[47:52] Wow. And it reads that way. What do you think Adam Driver would be in the movie?
Speaker 1:
[47:57] You know, I think that he is very selective. I think he's very selective. We can see from his body of work.
Speaker 7:
[48:04] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[48:05] So you know, maybe if we get Jim Jarmusch to direct, right?
Speaker 7:
[48:09] Right. It was your experience in rehab could have been its own book. I mean, it is a wild ride.
Speaker 1:
[48:21] That was the first chapter I wrote.
Speaker 7:
[48:23] Yeah, I bet. I mean, you can only imagine what it would be. You know, Lena Dunham's story of being in rehab. I mean, absolutely wild. And let me just throw in, they let her leave rehab to go to the Met Ball.
Speaker 1:
[48:39] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[48:39] Which seems counterintuitive to the experience.
Speaker 1:
[48:44] Well, I showed up and I basically said, listen, I have a date that is non-negotiable. I am not going to stand up. I am not going to do this Anna Wintour who would think to do it. Who I, by the way, say in the book, I'm like, she's always been so nice to me.
Speaker 7:
[48:56] She has.
Speaker 1:
[48:57] She's a dream. I say she gave me less trouble than every chubby woman in Hollywood combined.
Speaker 7:
[49:01] Wow. I mean, it's, it's amazing.
Speaker 1:
[49:04] I live for her. And her new Vogue cover was a triumph.
Speaker 7:
[49:09] Yes, it was.
Speaker 1:
[49:10] But I was like, I was invited and I cannot not go. And they kind of looked at me and were like, okay, we'll work on the fact that your priorities are bad and you can go. So I left once to do a fitting.
Speaker 7:
[49:22] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[49:22] And I then left once to go. And then I got whisked away like Cinderella at midnight. They went, they went, you, I had a curfew for the first time in 15 years. I hadn't had a curfew since 10th grade. And they said, you better be in that car at midnight. And I got in the car. And then when I got back, they said, we need to search your dress for contraband before you can walk in. Wow. But my dress was huge, Andy. It was, it was an endless dress. And I said, what kinds of things would people keep in the dress? And the woman said, I don't know, needles. Wow. But I had no needles in the dress. And then my friends all got to try it on.
Speaker 7:
[49:57] I love that. Who designed that dress?
Speaker 1:
[49:59] That dress was designed by Ronald Vanderkamp. And it was like an Elizabethan gold Elizabethan gown. And, you know, I had been literally wearing leggings. And the rule at rehab was like you had to wear something that appropriately covered your butt because you don't want people looking around distracted by the pure sensuality that is my body.
Speaker 7:
[50:20] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[50:21] And so I was wearing like a tunic and leggings, probably the same tunic and leggings, if I'm honest, for 28 days. And then suddenly you're in this insane gown, looking around at every celebrity you've ever seen. And you're like, but you don't, can't remember where you are. So you want to go up and be like, hi, I'm Lena. I'm an addict and I have something to say.
Speaker 7:
[50:43] That's incredible. I love that story.
Speaker 1:
[50:46] That was actually really fun. I loved rehab, by the way. I tell everyone, I wish all my friends could go to rehab.
Speaker 7:
[50:53] There's someone, I'm assuming all the names in rehab were changed, but there is someone who you talk about, and it is the woman who tried on the dress with the bathroom thing. Are you in touch with that person at all?
Speaker 1:
[51:07] I always joke that I made, you make these, it's like summer camp. We form these bonds and you're like, we are going to write to each other every day. And then you never, you make friends for a lifetime that you never speak to again. But if I saw any of them right now, I would throw my arms around them. And I, this sounds trite, but whenever I do my prayers, I go down every one of their names and I'll love them forever.
Speaker 7:
[51:33] That's amazing.
Speaker 1:
[51:33] They made me feel so at home.
Speaker 7:
[51:36] Speaking of home, what was your parents reaction to the book?
Speaker 1:
[51:41] So the first person I sent it to was my brother. He's a writer as well. He just is finishing his PhD in nonfiction at UCLA. So he's a doctor. He's gonna be a doctor of creative nonfiction. The first doctor in our family. My aunt's a doctor, but in our nuclear family, we didn't think we'd have one, so we're pretty excited. And he's an incredible editor as well. So I sent it to him and he gave me his feedback and kind of told me when he thought it was ready for their consumption. And then I sent it to them and they took a few, they were less in touch for a few days, were very in touch, so I kind of was, I was truly nervous in a way that was impossible to describe. I felt like I was going up for the, I don't know, judging panel on Project Runway. And they called me together and said, we have read the book, we are taking it in and we will send you our notes. And I received a PDF.
Speaker 7:
[52:41] Wow.
Speaker 1:
[52:41] Of about 45 pages. Wow. And what I really loved is because they're artists, yes, they gave me notes on their roles.
Speaker 7:
[52:51] Roles, yes.
Speaker 1:
[52:53] And they, you know, anything that they thought was like, they would be like, actually that was in, you know, June, not July, or you know, those details. My mom specifically, she loves the truth. Detective Laurie loves the truth.
Speaker 7:
[53:04] That comes across.
Speaker 1:
[53:06] Yeah, and she's, and she's, and in a, but in a great way, they gave me notes on stuff they were involved with, but they also gave me notes that were really about the larger story and the content and what they thought was important. And they were there in Brooklyn last night to support me. And my, one of my best friends, Alyssa Bennett was watching them. And she was like, I was staring at her mom's face the whole time.
Speaker 7:
[53:27] And?
Speaker 1:
[53:27] And I said, what was she doing? And she said, reluctant laughter.
Speaker 7:
[53:31] Did you take, what percentage of the notes did you take? Wow.
Speaker 1:
[53:37] I said to them, anything you want to extend? Cause my relationship with them is more important to me than anything.
Speaker 7:
[53:41] Yes, of course.
Speaker 1:
[53:42] And if they literally said like, you know, we would like you to change our names to Andy and Andy, since Andy McDowell is here today, we'll make them Andy and Andy. I would have done whatever they asked. But the really amazing thing is that my parents will, because they're artists, they will never stand in the way of a creative expression. But you know, my mom did, one of the reasons I waited on the book is I had a draft. And there's a part that is in the book where I asked my mom, I was in the hospital, I was kind of out of it. And I was like, Mom, will you take these little pieces and kind of, you know, the chronological order, organize them. And I just heard her reading, she was like, oh God, oh Jesus, oh no. And she was like, Lena, no, no, no. And then she's like bringing my father and tip. She wants to believe, it's so sad, we don't, you don't, people want to hear all this sad stuff. And the nice thing was that they were, she read the new draft and was like, it is, it is taking a leap to being something that is shareable.
Speaker 7:
[54:41] And just read what it says on the back of the book, because I love this, in order to wrap us up.
Speaker 1:
[54:44] This is about my aunt Bonnie. I recently told my aunt how nervous I was for this book to come out. I say some tough things, I told her, things my parents still don't know. What? She said, what could be so surprising? What don't they know? I mean, grandma dot saw you naked on TV when she was 96.
Speaker 7:
[55:00] I mean, and that says it all.
Speaker 1:
[55:02] At the first girls premiere, my grandmother sat there and she watched me get railed with the good humor of as if she was watching me in a Broadway production of Cinderella.
Speaker 7:
[55:14] And by the way, let me point out that what Barbara Walters said to you backstage at The View, which just begs so many questions.
Speaker 1:
[55:21] You are the only person who's really, I knew that that detail would mean something to you.
Speaker 7:
[55:25] Oh my God, I love it.
Speaker 1:
[55:26] Barbara Walters, one of the most important women of the last two centuries, she said back, we were about to go on The View. It was our first time on, all the girls and I were holding hands. It's our first time on, you know, live TV. And she says, I can't do a proper Barbara Walters impression, but she says, this pilot has so many intense things in her. I mean, you have anal sex in the fourth scene. And I said, well, it's sex from behind. And she said, yes, anal sex. And I just thought, who told Barbara Walters that all sex from behind is anal and what has her life looked like as a result?
Speaker 7:
[56:06] Lena writes, it's very funny. Anyway, the book is famous.
Speaker 1:
[56:11] And I hope she, listen, she sat in that chair every day. She must have been OK.
Speaker 7:
[56:15] There you go. The book is Famesick, a memoir. It's so delivers. It's so wonderful. Just like you, Lena Dunham. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:
[56:23] Love you to bits. Honored to be here with you all. Thank you.
Speaker 7:
[56:26] Thank you. That's all for this week's edition of Andy Cohen's Daddy Diaries Podcast. To hear every minute of my Kiki with John, plus interviews, news and more, you can listen to my SiriusXM channel, Radio Andy, anytime on the SiriusXM app. We'll see you right back here with more Daddy Diaries next week.
Speaker 5:
[56:55] Radio Andy, always unpredictable, a SiriusXM Podcast.
Speaker 9:
[57:00] Hey everyone, it's me, Morgan Stewart, and I have a new podcast called The Morgan Stewart Show. Join me each week as I talk about pop culture, fashion, my personal life, and just a warning, I'm going to be giving my opinion on everything. I'll also have some really fun guests to join in on the fun. The Morgan Stewart Show is out now. Listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts or watch full video on YouTube.
Speaker 3:
[57:21] Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair, done well. Kitchen sink install, done well. Deck upgrades, done well. Electrical upgrades, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at angie.com.