transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2:
[00:15] Her mom and her dad went over to her and he goes over.

Speaker 3:
[00:34] In North Dakota, a bland complex of apartments sits a few blocks from Minot State University. The one-story, 10 units with low rent frequently house students, but are also open to public housing. On Monday, June 4th, 2007, the day was breezy, a chilling morning that warmed up to about 60 by afternoon. Anita Knutson had just completed her freshman year and was living in these apartments, about an hour from her parents in Butte, North Dakota. Her parents usually checked in on her at least once a week, but they were aware of how busy her schedule was. Not only did Anita take a full load of classes, but she also worked two jobs and still had time for friends. The previous Saturday, June 2nd, her mom called and didn't get an answer. Anita didn't call her back, so she assumed she was just busy. But Anita found time to respond within about a day. So when Monday the 4th rolled around and calls were still unanswered, she decided to send Anita's dad to the apartment just to be safe.

Speaker 2:
[01:48] Is this the police department? Yes, it is. This is the resident manager up in North Kew Apartments. I had a father come to my apartment here to check on his daughter. We just came in the apartment. I think she's dead.

Speaker 3:
[02:00] Her dad left Butte right after breakfast with friends and got to the apartments at around 10 a.m. He noticed she was still there. So he knocked on her door several times. Again, no answer. So he figured she was maybe in the shower. Her dad and his buddies went on to the town of Minot for a while. But when his wife called him again, saying Anita wasn't answering, she pressed him to go back.

Speaker 4:
[02:27] I turned around and went back up to where she lived. I went straight to the manager's office and told him that we couldn't get a hold of Anita and that I would like to see what's going on if she let me in.

Speaker 3:
[02:46] Anita's dad didn't have a key, so he was relying on the manager to let him in. At first, she refused, saying she could get into trouble if she did that. But Anita's dad was ready with an answer.

Speaker 4:
[03:00] And I said, you can get into trouble if you don't do it, too.

Speaker 3:
[03:04] That was a good enough call to action. The manager immediately got up, went to the keys hanging on the wall, and started heading over to the apartment.

Speaker 4:
[03:13] About that time, the maintenance man was there also, and he stated that he had found a screen from a window of one of the apartments, and he thought it was from her apartment.

Speaker 3:
[03:38] On the way to Anita's apartment, her dad was still hanging on to hope that she'd greet him at the door when they got there. I mean, does anybody ever think they're going to find their kid in some kind of trouble? But he couldn't lie to himself. The missing screen was a huge red flag. The next thought was, if she were in trouble, maybe she was the one who escaped through the window, and all they'd need to do would be to find her. But that's not how it went, not at all.

Speaker 4:
[04:09] Went in, and the door was open to the bedroom, and I walked in and checked her, put my hand on her leg and she was cold.

Speaker 3:
[04:22] All he could see was the long black hair on her head. The rest of her body was covered in a dark red blanket. Meanwhile, the apartment manager had already been alerted about the missing screen from her window.

Speaker 2:
[04:36] I guess this morning when we were picking up garbage, there was a screen that was all ripped out, and it came from this apartment. It was just, I don't know, thrown out to the side of it. My maintenance crew picked it up.

Speaker 5:
[04:46] Is she, is she moving?

Speaker 2:
[04:48] No, she isn't. We came in, into the apartment, her dad went over to her, and he goes, oh my gosh, she's cold in her blood.

Speaker 3:
[04:56] Police and emergency vehicles pulled in, with lights flashing and sirens wailing. An officer stepped in, took one look, and backed out to protect the scene. Firefighters confirmed what everyone feared. Anita's body was removed. The door was secured again. The apartment was now evidence. Inside, nothing screamed break-in except the window. The window screen had already been taken to the maintenance shop for repair before police even arrived. It wasn't unusual, a torn screen that needed fixing, but this screen wasn't torn. It was cut, and the front door remained intact. The apartment was neat, as it ever was. No obvious signs of ransacking. Anita was found face down on the bed, stabbed at 18 years old. But by late afternoon, everyone in the complex knew something terrible had happened. They could all see the yellow tape. Neighbors coming and going all had the same looks on their faces, fear and bewilderment. Detectives worked outward, other apartments, the laundry room, the parking row, the courtyard. Who heard anything like voices, a struggle, a door? Who noticed that screen yesterday? Or the day before? Who saw Anita over the weekend? They started their list of people to speak with, classmates, her roommates, romantic interests, and the maintenance man. Anita's roommate, Nicole Thomas, had gone home to her family farm for the weekend. On Monday, she went straight to her job as a telemarketer and she was shocked to get the call that the police needed to talk to her. The crime van was on the scene for interviewing.

Speaker 6:
[06:51] Statement given to Barner in the crime van on June the 4th at 1811 p.m. at 2424 Street Northwest. Would you say your name, probably, please?

Speaker 7:
[07:04] Nicole Thomas.

Speaker 6:
[07:05] And Nicole, you're a resident at this location. Which apartment?

Speaker 3:
[07:09] Nicole and Anita went to school together in Velva, a tiny town southeast of Minot. The entire student body, K through 12, was a mere 400 students or so. Each classroom had a student teacher ratio of about 12 to 1, meaning they all got to know each other very well.

Speaker 6:
[07:28] How old are you, Nicole? I'm 19. Okay, Nicole, I'm just trying to get my feet on the ground with what's going on here. And you know more about the situation prior to today than I certainly do. How old is Anita? She's 18? You guys, how long have you guys been friends?

Speaker 8:
[07:46] It was my senior year from high school.

Speaker 7:
[07:49] She just said, well, she moved to my freshman year, and we kind of hung out, and then we went to college, and we just wanted to move into an apartment. So it was a lot easier to...

Speaker 6:
[08:03] Sure. You work at e-Telecare. Does she work anywhere?

Speaker 7:
[08:07] Yeah, she works at Vanity and at the Fairfield.

Speaker 3:
[08:12] To clarify, that was Vanity, a clothing store, and the Fairfield Inn, a local hotel.

Speaker 6:
[08:19] Tell me a few things about her. She got a boyfriend?

Speaker 7:
[08:23] No, she hangs out with a lot of different people, so...

Speaker 6:
[08:25] She got any guys or anything that she's interested in or that are interested in her?

Speaker 7:
[08:30] I don't know. She was going to school, so a lot of guys went to dinner, but we didn't have a lot of time to talk, so I don't know of any of the guys she's been recently hanging out with because I work all the time, and then I get up, and when she gets up, I'm sleeping, so it's kind of off schedules for the both of us, but.

Speaker 3:
[08:50] In case you missed it, Nicole said that Anita was a gorgeous girl, and she was. She and her two siblings were adopted by the Knutsons in California before they moved to North Dakota, and the family was extremely close. Her sister described her as the girl everyone wanted to know. Anita had a picture-perfect face with an open smile and a bubbly personality. A typical cheerleader type. Because Anita was a popular girl, it was important to determine who she had been in contact with in the days before her murder.

Speaker 6:
[09:26] Tell me about this past weekend. You said you went to Velva. When did you go to Velva?

Speaker 7:
[09:31] I came home, found it, from March 11th, and I went to Velva, and I packed my stuff.

Speaker 6:
[09:36] Home meaning here?

Speaker 7:
[09:38] Yeah, I came here after work, and then I packed my stuff, and then I got up at 7 on the start of the morning, and left the table at 7.30 to go home.

Speaker 6:
[09:48] You needed her then?

Speaker 7:
[09:49] Yeah, I think she was in her room.

Speaker 6:
[09:52] Was she sleeping for, as you know?

Speaker 7:
[09:54] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[09:54] Did you talk to her at all?

Speaker 5:
[09:55] We haven't really talked to her in three weeks.

Speaker 6:
[09:58] Just because you haven't seen each other? I don't know. When you got home on Friday night, you didn't see her either? All right. But when you left here, Saturday morning, you went to Velma, correct? Yeah. You never came back here again?

Speaker 7:
[10:10] I haven't been back here since Saturday mornings.

Speaker 3:
[10:13] These two girls seem to be so busy with school and their jobs that they didn't really speak much. They were purely roommates. Nicole stopped in for the night on Friday, but left early Saturday morning. Still, Nicole remembered hearing a male voice in Anita's room that night. Anita's phone was seized for evidence. In the meantime, a friend of Anita's, who lived in the same complex, came forward willingly to tell what he knew.

Speaker 6:
[10:39] Could you state your name for me, please?

Speaker 4:
[10:41] Tyler James Schmalz.

Speaker 6:
[10:42] Tyler, you're here at the scene where a friend of yours has expired. Is that correct?

Speaker 9:
[10:47] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[10:48] What's her name?

Speaker 9:
[10:49] Anita Knutson.

Speaker 6:
[10:50] You told me that you and Anita have been friends for about five years? Sure. Just friends? No boyfriend, girlfriend, just friends? Yeah, just friends. Okay. How did you meet her? How did you know her?

Speaker 10:
[11:00] We went to prom together four years ago.

Speaker 6:
[11:02] Okay.

Speaker 10:
[11:02] We went to school together.

Speaker 6:
[11:03] But now you live here, in fact, about a block away.

Speaker 10:
[11:05] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[11:06] Correct.

Speaker 3:
[11:06] Okay.

Speaker 6:
[11:07] When did you last see her? Thursday night?

Speaker 3:
[11:10] Thursday night, Anita and Tyler went for a walk and watched a movie together. It was no secret that Tyler had a forever crush on Anita ever since the high school prom. But according to him, she was okay with that and they were just friends. He added that they chatted online the following night, Friday. So, was it his voice, Nicole heard coming from Anita's room?

Speaker 6:
[11:37] Why don't you tell me what you guys were talking about? She was just talking about she went for a walk and she went to pay her rent.

Speaker 9:
[11:42] And she had a date at truck stop.

Speaker 6:
[11:44] She had a date after that at the truck stop? Before we talked. And you know who she had a date with?

Speaker 9:
[11:48] She didn't say. Said her hot date and then she left.

Speaker 6:
[11:51] A hot date?

Speaker 9:
[11:52] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[11:52] You know, were you assuming that was a male or? Yes, I assumed. Okay, was she kind of joking around when she said hot date? You know, it was jokes around.

Speaker 11:
[12:00] Yeah, it could have been anybody.

Speaker 3:
[12:02] If you didn't know the area, you might think that Tyler's description was a bit shady. Truck stop, hot date, and could have been anybody. But the truck stop was a family owned diner where many students would hang out. And the hot date, she could have been teasing and only meant she was meeting a friend.

Speaker 6:
[12:23] Do you know who she was meeting?

Speaker 12:
[12:24] No.

Speaker 6:
[12:25] Do you know who her friends are or male friends?

Speaker 12:
[12:27] Not really.

Speaker 6:
[12:28] She has lots of friends. Any other information you think you can give me that would help? She was talking to her ex-boyfriend in California. What is his name, do you know?

Speaker 1:
[12:38] Not sure.

Speaker 6:
[12:39] And what were they talking about?

Speaker 1:
[12:40] Not sure. But they always talk. They're really good friends.

Speaker 6:
[12:43] Talk quite frequently.

Speaker 11:
[12:44] Yeah. They talk every night, I think.

Speaker 6:
[12:46] She didn't have a regular boyfriend here though?

Speaker 11:
[12:48] Nope.

Speaker 6:
[12:48] Did she have anybody mad at her that you can think of?

Speaker 11:
[12:50] No.

Speaker 6:
[12:51] Male or female?

Speaker 11:
[12:52] No.

Speaker 6:
[12:53] Everything was going okay for her.

Speaker 4:
[12:54] As far as she told me.

Speaker 3:
[12:56] Another friend came forward that same day. And this person was the last to have communicated with Anita. This was Michael Vann.

Speaker 6:
[13:05] Michael, you came down here, obviously, you heard the news about what occurred, is that correct?

Speaker 5:
[13:10] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[13:11] The police haven't called you or anything, you just came down here?

Speaker 5:
[13:14] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[13:15] All right. And you want to talk about Anita Knutson, who you said was a friend of yours, is that correct? When did you last see her, Michael? A while ago, this weekend.

Speaker 5:
[13:24] It was probably three or four Saturdays ago.

Speaker 6:
[13:27] Three or four Saturdays ago?

Speaker 5:
[13:29] She didn't really come down a lot, just usually I'd talk to her and text her.

Speaker 3:
[13:33] Michael said they didn't get together very often because Anita kept to herself. It's weird because everybody described Anita as having a lot of friends, yet this friend claimed she didn't go out much. He went on to say that they texted and talked between shifts. He worked day shift at Wendy's and she worked night shifts at the hotel.

Speaker 6:
[13:55] June 3rd, which would have been Saturday, Sunday, Sunday morning, morning at 4:53 a.m., Saturday night, Sunday morning.

Speaker 5:
[14:04] You were talking to her.

Speaker 6:
[14:06] What were you guys talking about?

Speaker 5:
[14:08] I texted her and said, are you up? She said, yeah, I'm up. She was asking me, how do you get over being with somebody for all kinds? Like, do you ever move past being hurt? I'm like, no.

Speaker 6:
[14:21] So she's talking about an old boyfriend or something?

Speaker 5:
[14:23] She was talking about, yeah. Because she was saying that she was, we were asking each other, you know, we were asking each other questions. And we always would ask questions or we'd just talk in general. And she was asking me, you know, you can change one thing about yourself, what would you change? And I thought of a few things initially, I'd be more outgoing. Because she always, Shelley said she was too shy and she wanted to trust people more.

Speaker 3:
[14:50] The picture of Anita was getting hazier, if anything. Here was a bright, beautiful and bubbly 18 year old girl who had two jobs and dozens of friends, including guy friends. But according to Michael and their conversations, she described herself as shy and untrusting of people.

Speaker 5:
[15:10] We want to get to know each other. Like, I like to and I want to know that or so.

Speaker 6:
[15:14] Where did she get these questions from?

Speaker 5:
[15:16] Were they just random questions? We totally asked off the wall questions to each other. From kind of be, you know, what do you like to do? How, you know, do you like to read? Do you like to write? Do you?

Speaker 6:
[15:28] But you haven't seen her physically in weeks.

Speaker 5:
[15:30] I haven't seen her in a few weeks.

Speaker 3:
[15:32] Michael maintained that Anita was usually with two of her girlfriends. Her roommate, or her neighbor, meaning Tyler Schmalz, who you heard earlier.

Speaker 6:
[15:43] Well, I guess the million dollar question is here, who would want to hurt her?

Speaker 5:
[15:47] I don't know, anybody would want to hurt her. She was a really past person.

Speaker 11:
[15:51] He's the only one at this point.

Speaker 6:
[15:53] You may have been the last person that had contact with her.

Speaker 5:
[15:56] So you're telling me I'm the only one who tried, so I'm on a Saturday night?

Speaker 8:
[16:00] Well, if it's Sunday morning, I'm on a Sunday morning Saturday night.

Speaker 3:
[16:03] Michael explained that he had met Anita through friends just months prior, and that he really liked her because she was different than any other girl he'd met. Standard line, right? Anyway, he had never been to her apartment and was only trying to get to know her through text given their busy schedules. Anita's body was found on Monday afternoon and the last text she sent was around 5 a.m. to Michael Van, who was at a friend's house with some other guys. He said he thought she was dozing off after he asked a question and didn't get a response. So he texted again asking why she didn't answer. She said, I don't know what to say. At that point, they messaged each other good night. That morning, all of his friends cleared the house and went to McDonald's at around 7 a.m. Michael stayed behind at the house until his friends came back and then went to work. That was his timeline, so he said. He said, she said. The police were finding out just how many people Anita knew and was talking to in the days, weeks, and months before her murder. There were a lot of people. Michael just happened to be the very last person to communicate with her. But did Michael kill her? It was starting to look like it could be just about anyone. On Monday, June 4th, 2007, just a few blocks from Minot State University, 18-year-old Anita Knutson lay stabbed to death on her bed in an apartment complex. Clues included a window screen lying in a yard and Anita herself. By nightfall, detectives had their first statements. Her roommate Nicole said she left for Velva early Saturday, only to return Monday afternoon. Her neighbor Tyler last saw Anita Thursday, and her new friend Michael Van was trying to get to know her through texting the very morning she was killed. In these messages, she told him she was home alone, reading a book and that she'd been sick and had taken a bath earlier. He worked a Sunday morning shift and later called at around 4:32 PM, but got no answer, so he left the voicemail. There was one other person on the detective's radar the day Anita's body was found. This was Marty, the maintenance man.

Speaker 13:
[19:13] Were you on duty or were you working today, which is June 4th, 2007? Yes, I am.

Speaker 3:
[19:21] Okay.

Speaker 13:
[19:22] And would you do any property maintenance at all off at this address? I was cleaning trash, yard garbage, and the general maintenance that I do every morning. Okay.

Speaker 3:
[19:36] Marty was also responsible for things like window screen repair.

Speaker 13:
[19:42] Okay. Did you run across anything on the boys' area or on your door walk here today?

Speaker 3:
[19:49] He did. He noticed a window rod and curtains lying in the yard outside Anita's apartment.

Speaker 13:
[19:56] That was just the rod, right? That was just the rod, yes. Where was the curtain shade? My curtain shade was laying outside the laundry room door. This was the first step. Okay. And what happened to the laundry room? The laundry room door is located just to the west of apartment number 5? Yes. Okay. And was it laying just kind of in the central location? Or under the window from number 5, or it was laying on the concrete sidewalk? Oh, on the sidewalk, just below the stairs. Okay. What did you do with those items? I took them items, and I was happy to see the screen was cut. So I removed the screen. So now we're back to repair. The screen that would cut, was the frame of the screen still intact?

Speaker 3:
[20:54] Yes, but it was slightly bent, and the cut in the screen would later become a focal point of the investigation. The screen had two clean cuts in it, forming the shape of an L.

Speaker 13:
[21:07] Well, let's go back to the L. When you look at the L from the L side of the apartment, was it a backwards L or an L to you? It was a backwards L. A backwards L? Okay. It appeared that somebody did go through it, too somebody came out it. And that's what it looked like. That's what I looked at it. So once you removed the frame of the screen out of that window, was it after that that you threw the rod at the curtain back into the apartment? Yes, it was. Um, did you see anything kind of useful at all in the apartment?

Speaker 3:
[21:51] This would later become a problem that detectives would need to review. Marty had to have looked into the window and seen Anita's body on the bed, right? After all, he removed the screen and threw the curtains back through the window. The window screen wasn't the only piece of physical evidence found at the scene. Just at the foot of Anita's bed, under a blanket, lay a large pocket knife. Analysis determined that this was the blade used to stab Anita and cut through the window screen. Although the knife was fairly common, sold at souvenir shops, convenience stores, etc. It had some unique features. A Native American medallion was on both sides of the handle, but the medallion was missing on the other side. The blood on the knife was Anita's. Any other DNA was too miniscule to analyze. But about a year after the murder, two indigenous women caught wind of the ongoing investigation. Some of the details shocked their ears. I sure hope Devon wasn't involved, said one of the ladies. She was talking about Devon Hall, a 6'2 Native American male in his early 20s. He spent most of his time in Montana, but also had a few friends in the Minot area. This was important because of two things. Someone reported a young man with his description running through the apartment complex on the day of the murder, and the knife allegedly looked like one he owned. Oh, and Devon was in trouble with the law. A lot. In fact, just months after Anita's death, he broke into a woman's Montana apartment through the window, I might add, and attempted to assault her sexually. But in 2008, detectives took a trip to Montana and interviewed him at a tribal police station.

Speaker 9:
[23:47] So did you go through any windows on the other side of town?

Speaker 12:
[23:50] No.

Speaker 9:
[23:50] Up on the north side where Sergeant Goodman took you?

Speaker 12:
[23:54] No, I haven't been over there.

Speaker 9:
[23:55] So you have no fingerprints up there? No fingerprints. People make mistakes, Devon, and that's why we don't talk to people, because we realize that people, and you've made mistakes, I've made mistakes. Sergeant Goodman's made a mistake. Yeah, so it comes a time when you have to fix those, right? So did you crawl in some other windows this year? No.

Speaker 3:
[24:19] The officers pressed him and reminded him of his recent arrest.

Speaker 11:
[24:23] Well, because we have reports that you did that.

Speaker 12:
[24:26] Yeah, I sat down on a watch machine trying to grab it.

Speaker 11:
[24:28] Trying to get in the window, and then we've got you in Minot trying to get in that window, and we know what we got arrested for, for a little trespass.

Speaker 8:
[24:34] Yeah, some of the trespass.

Speaker 11:
[24:36] And it just seems to be your method of operation seems to be the way you do things. So we're just wondering if there's a chance that you crawled in the window and killed this girl.

Speaker 12:
[24:47] No, I didn't, bro.

Speaker 14:
[24:48] That's murder, man.

Speaker 3:
[24:50] Devin apparently drew a hard line between crawling in women's windows and straight-up murder, something he swore he didn't do. But time would tell. And there was plenty of time left between the murder and the trial. Without DNA or hard evidence, there just wasn't enough to indict any of these subjects. Tyler Schmalz, the nerdy, obsessed friend, Michael Vann, the last one to speak to Anita, Marty, the maintenance guy, or Devin Hall, the young man who enjoyed crawling through windows. The case went cold for 15 years with no resolution or justice for Anita's family. Meanwhile, the whole circle of friends from Velva High School married, had kids, divorced, just moved on with their lives, but they never forgot. Finally, in 2022, a show called Cold Justice learned of the unsolved case and decided to reopen the files along with the FBI. Only one aspect of this murder hadn't truly been scrutinized, and it started inside the apartment long before Anita was murdered. Rumors swirled between 2007 and 2022 that Anita and her roommate Nicole really didn't get along that well. Cold Case went on a parallel mission, revisit the four suspects while simultaneously looking into the roommate relationship. Even though Nicole had an alibi, it couldn't hurt. They dug up the original interviews and ones that took place between 2007 and 2022. One particular interview stuck out. This was Nicole's coworker Donna, and she had a lot to say.

Speaker 15:
[26:39] But I recall that when she sat down, she talked a lot about her roommate. Her roommate was also adopted. Her roommate was, she didn't like her roommate. She was very spoiled and wanted everything her own way all the time. And they argued all the time. And when they argued, she said her roommate would just go in and lock the bedroom door. That's what she would do. And that coming up, preceding the actual murder, they had been, it had been escalating with them about a fish tank that the roommate owned. The victim didn't like the fish tank because it made too much noise. So they had been, every day I would hear about this argument about the fish tank. Well, then the roommate went away for the weekend. And she came back on Monday and she was livid because she said, you know what that bitch did now? She unplugged my fish tank and killed all my fish.

Speaker 3:
[27:45] That was Nicole's coworker and other sources heard Nicole say this too. But this was Nicole's response in a later interview.

Speaker 16:
[27:54] Tell me about the incident with your fish tank.

Speaker 17:
[27:58] Fish tank? Oh, one of my friends poured beer in it.

Speaker 8:
[28:02] Oh.

Speaker 17:
[28:03] And filled it with beer instead of water.

Speaker 16:
[28:05] Okay.

Speaker 17:
[28:06] I don't remember anything else about this fish tank.

Speaker 16:
[28:09] It can't be good for fish?

Speaker 8:
[28:10] No. No, it killed all fish.

Speaker 16:
[28:13] Because we had heard that Anita had unplugged your fish tank at one point and that killed your fish, because she didn't like the noise.

Speaker 7:
[28:19] It made too much noise.

Speaker 17:
[28:20] I don't know anything about that. No, I know all my fish died because my friend poured beer in the fish tank.

Speaker 16:
[28:27] Good friends?

Speaker 17:
[28:28] Yeah. I don't remember anything else. I didn't have that. No.

Speaker 7:
[28:33] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[28:35] Donna clearly remembered Nicole being livid about the fish tank, not more than two weeks before the murder. She also recalled Nicole saying that Anita apologized, maintaining she didn't know unplugging the tank would kill the fish. I guess she didn't say anything about the beer.

Speaker 15:
[28:53] So after that, it went from her disliking the girl to thinking that the girl was a bad person, you know, evil, bad person, killed my fish type thing.

Speaker 7:
[29:04] Okay.

Speaker 15:
[29:06] Still thought she had done it deliberately, and she hated her, thought she was evil.

Speaker 3:
[29:12] Nicole allegedly didn't believe her and painted her as a spoiled victim type. But here's what a former roommate said about Nicole.

Speaker 18:
[29:20] She always came off as the one that got bullied and picked on and everything. So I like to be friends with people like that, that I feel need help. And the more that we hung out, the more she was very controlling and when she lied, her dad was paying all her bills at that time. She would just spend money and he would pick up her rent and her bad checks. And if she'd overdraft, he would help with that. It got to the point where it was so overwhelming. I just did not want to be a part of this constant chaos with her always.

Speaker 3:
[30:07] That's not at all how Nicole herself characterized her relationship with her dad, her adoptive dad. Did we mention that both Anita and Nicole had been adopted by their respective families when they were infants? The impression that Nicole gave people was that her dad was strict and made her work for everything she had. Along the way, her aunt was interviewed, her dad's sister. She and her husband had some concerns in 2008 that investigators wanted to revisit in 2022.

Speaker 14:
[30:39] When she was younger, I know she had a short few, as I can remember that. She was really short tempered and flew off the handle pretty easy.

Speaker 19:
[30:48] And Brenda said that Nicky Thomas is very manipulative, has a long history of lying, and that Nicky got those traits from her mom. Who's also that way.

Speaker 3:
[30:59] Nicole's aunt and uncle made statements that Nicky would fly into rages, and her dad would have to wrestle her to the ground. She and her dad would enter into shouting matches. But Nicole's mom would always side with Nicole. At one point, therapy was suggested.

Speaker 10:
[31:18] She would just get so angry, and it would cause problems between Kevin and Gay. And with Gay, or Kevin not being, you know, her biological father, of course, at that point, I would say Gay always backed up Nicole. And so it caused problems. I think just a lot of... There was just so much anger and rage. Just not normal. Like, I never ever had any type of arguments or fights with my children. It wasn't normal, healthy.

Speaker 3:
[32:04] Nicole also had some less than nice things to say about Anita, whom everyone liked, except for Nicole.

Speaker 16:
[32:12] Brenda, do you ever recall Nikki saying mean things about Anita, like, you know, calling her a bitch or anything like that?

Speaker 10:
[32:23] Oh, in the past, they do, yeah.

Speaker 19:
[32:25] Because the old notes say, Brenda, this paragraph reads, after Anita Knutson's homicide, Brenda Glenn stated that Nikki Thomas had referred to Anita as a, end quote, fucking bitch and a fucking little cunt.

Speaker 3:
[32:39] Almost everyone who was interviewed outside Nicole's immediate family described Nicole as someone who had anger and rage, who drank until belligerently drunk, and whom they feared at times. The same roommate you heard before remembers what it was like living with Nicole. And this was after the homicide.

Speaker 17:
[33:01] She was very controlling.

Speaker 18:
[33:02] And if I would talk to anybody else or hang out with other friends, it was always a fight.

Speaker 15:
[33:08] She was a bitch. She bitched all the time. Not to say about about everything or about her parents with this whole situation, about the police. But prior to that, it was all bitching about her, the victim. No.

Speaker 11:
[33:25] Were you scared of her at all?

Speaker 15:
[33:26] Yeah, I was scared of her. Okay. I'll tell you why I was scared of her is because she had so much anger leading up to that point that that scared me right there. That's why I said, you know, you need to get a different roommate. It doesn't get that, you know, I could see it escalating. It was bad.

Speaker 16:
[33:43] Do you remember an incident where Nikki got mad at home and punched her fist through the door?

Speaker 14:
[33:49] Yeah, I think. And then Kevin took the door. See, I think I remember he took the door off the bedroom.

Speaker 3:
[33:57] Apparently Nicole remembered none of these things or she was a pretty good liar.

Speaker 8:
[34:03] I do have patients. I do. I mean, even at work, I'm one of the calmest people there. They're like, how do you handle some of this? You know, man, you just got, I mean, this is how I see it. You know, put yourself in their situation. I mean, some of the patients in there that get irritated, I'd be irritated too, you know?

Speaker 3:
[34:21] In the years following Anita's murder, the friend group had plenty of chances to get together and speculate on what had happened. They discussed the four main suspects, the maintenance worker, the obsessed friend, the last person to text her, and the man caught running from the scene. These suspects hadn't been officially ruled out yet, as far as they knew. But the more they hung out, had parties, and went on with their lives, the more one person revealed herself. Nicole Thomas, now married and named Nicole Rice. One thing hadn't changed, at least for a while. Nicole kept drinking. And when she drank, she slipped. Not on the floor, but, you know, with her tongue. No, not that way, sicko.

Speaker 18:
[35:14] We were there, and they had brought up the murder of Anita, and I didn't know much of that. She was crying. At this time, I didn't know her at all. I had just met her there. I had offered to give her a ride home. Now, I can't remember if that is the time I gave her a ride home and Willie was with, or if it was just us. But I gave her a ride home to our apartment, like I said, right across from Video Magic. It's that Brown Brook building. She lived in the lower apartment. And when we got there, I just tried to calm her down and ask her what was wrong. And she had talked about Anita and then she had said that she had killed her. And then it was over an alarm clock that she was sick and tired of not being able to turn it off. And that she and her roommate weren't getting along. And there was another time that we had been going to and she had brought it up and said the same thing.

Speaker 3:
[36:25] Over an alarm clock. See, it was the little things that pissed Nicole off and sent her into a rage. Apparently Anita slept through her alarm a lot and Nicole had to listen to it. This is Nicole back in 2007.

Speaker 11:
[36:41] And would you say you got along with her?

Speaker 7:
[36:43] Oh, yes, we got along and we were roommates for a few years forever, but we didn't really argue.

Speaker 13:
[36:50] What type of roommates disputes did you have?

Speaker 7:
[36:54] The only time I even had a problem was one night when she had knocked her door. I was really tired, and the long clock went off at the peak, and it kept going off, it kept going off. I was going to shut off the light, but let it go. I said, what time? When we leave, we should shut off the long clock. I texted it, and it was on the top, and it just stopped.

Speaker 11:
[37:24] That's not what you said in the text, though you weren't quite as smart.

Speaker 7:
[37:26] Yeah, I wasn't quite as smart. Um, I was pretty early in the morning, I was pretty savvy, I get that way.

Speaker 3:
[37:34] Maybe you've had a roommate like that, or a husband, a wife, a partner. The one who lets the alarm keep going. Maybe hitting snooze, maybe sleeping through it all while you're sitting there wide awake. Pretty fucking annoying. But are you gonna kill them over it? I mean, we say I'm gonna kill you, but we don't really mean it. At least, not most of us. Not most of the time. To add to Nicole's frustrations, Anita locked her bedroom door a lot.

Speaker 15:
[38:07] So anyway, they're fighting all the time. And then she said that the roommate, the victim would go into her bedroom and lock the door, lock her out.

Speaker 3:
[38:16] Nicole's roommate, Christina, wasn't the only one to hear Nicole say she killed Anita. A boyfriend also heard it.

Speaker 16:
[38:23] So we had heard from a couple of people connected to you or Nicole in some way that at some point after this happened, she got drunk and she told you that she killed Anita. Do you remember that?

Speaker 9:
[38:36] Correct, yes.

Speaker 12:
[38:38] It was either 915 19th Street or something like that. Anyways, I had a big old house and four buddies of mine, we all deployed together and we were there. And of course we'd have parties, you know, young and dumb. And yeah, that's just what happened. I mean, she was belligerently drunk and that's what was said. And there was multiple people that heard it. And then I tried to get her to say it when she was sober, but she wouldn't.

Speaker 16:
[39:08] And how did that come about? Like were people accusing her saying, hey, you killed your roommate or did she just kind of spontaneously throw that out there?

Speaker 12:
[39:17] Well, we were kind of talking about it. A friend of mine had brought it up, and we were kind of talking about it. You know, kind of trying to be investigators ourselves, you know, because being young, that's what we do. And yeah, and then it's just, we were all getting ready to go to bed, and she said it.

Speaker 16:
[39:38] Did she say, oh, you did it or any specifics?

Speaker 12:
[39:42] Uh-uh. No, that's all she said was, I did it. But then I tried to get her to say it when she was sober, and I couldn't get her to say it when she was sober. So I just left it at that, and she was too crazy for me. So I said, see ya.

Speaker 3:
[39:58] Her boyfriend wasn't the only one to tell Nicole hit the road.

Speaker 18:
[40:03] When I was roommates with her, we got in an argument, and she had actually lunged at me, and I had made the comment to her, you are not going to do that again.

Speaker 9:
[40:15] What did you get before?

Speaker 18:
[40:17] You wrote the card, I'm going to go to the cops next time you say anything, I'm going to record you, and I'm going to the cops. And then I would get threats, and I just moved out, and I have not spoken to her since then.

Speaker 3:
[40:32] With all this new information, detectives set out to eliminate the other four suspects. Tyler Schmalz, Anita's high school prom date, was easy enough to count out. Tyler had been more than cooperative in helping find Anita's killer. So much so that for a while, it placed more suspicion on him. But he didn't fade from the case. He ran a memorial Facebook group that posted updates, helping fund and put up billboards along Highway 83. Asking for tips and regularly speaking to anyone who would listen. A creepy killer might have made his presence known, but would he take all these steps only to have the evidence point back to him? Unlikely. Most of all, his timeline never placed him anywhere near the apartment after Thursday, and nothing tied him physically to the scene. Then there was Marty, the maintenance man. A shocking twist suddenly put the spotlight back on him. Investigators called his sister.

Speaker 20:
[41:34] My brother committed suicide up there.

Speaker 3:
[41:37] Initially, community members and detectives thought that a drastic change in his behavior following Anita's death indicated his involvement. He was a drinker. He had access. He was first on the scene. But they later found out that Marty had plenty of other reasons to be depressed.

Speaker 20:
[41:55] And that was him and his girlfriend were breaking up at that time. And then he was losing his home, his job and everything because of their breakup, because they were all invested into one thing. But I really don't know.

Speaker 3:
[42:09] You see, at the time of Anita's murder, Marty was dating and living with his girlfriend, who just happened to be the apartment complex manager, the one who led Anita's dad into her apartment. By all accounts, the couple was really happy. That is until she confessed to an affair a few months after the murder and asked Marty to move out. This meant he literally lost everything, his job, his place to live, and his girlfriend. Even worse, his favorite niece lost her life that year, so it was a bad year for Marty. And it was a perfectly reasonable explanation for his suicide. Next was Michael Vann. Unfortunately, they wouldn't be able to interview him again either. He also died. Not of suicide, but of an asthma attack. Pouring back through the details, investigators had nothing to place him at the scene. And his alibi still held up. Finally, the most viable suspect of all was 6'2, Devin Hall. Devin already had a history of minor offenses. And after Anita's murder, he was arrested for breaking and entering. He claimed he had a knife resembling the murder weapon. And a figure of his height was seen running from the scene. As for the runner, it turned out to be the paper boy trying to get through his route quickly. And the knife? Devin was mistaken about the knife. If he ever owned a knife with a missing medallion like that of the murder weapon, he had lost it long before the murder. But the biggest question was whether he was in Maynard in the wee hours of Sunday, June 3rd. Based on a review of Amtrak tickets, it looked like Devin was in the area at the time of the murder. But Devin's aunt says that he and a group of friends were at Wolf Point, Montana for a June 1st graduation, where they stayed both Friday and Saturday nights. They didn't get into Maynard until Sunday night, well after Anita's last message came through on Sunday morning. With the help of Cold Justice and Federal Support in 2022, the re-interviews tightened and the walls were closing in on Nicole. Co-workers, friends, and exes repeated the same themes. Fights that led to locked doors, late night drunken confessions, and stories that shifted depending on who told them. But as long as Nicole's alibi held, she was at her parents' place from Friday night through Monday morning, those stories were nothing but noise. But would the noise eventually turn into the crystal clear voices of her own family? On Monday, June 4th, 2007, 18-year-old Anita Knutson was found slumped over her bed in her off-campus apartment a few blocks from Minot State. She lay face down. A white robe was placed over part of her back and shoulders. A dark spot of blood stained the fabric. More blood had soaked through the mattress and run to the floor. There were no overturned drawers, no scattered books, no signs of a fight. She had no defense wounds, and the forensic exam ruled out sexual assault. An autopsy documented only two stab wounds to the chest. One cut through the heart, and Anita bled to death quickly. That morning, the maintenance man found a window screen with a backwards L cut into the mesh. Interviews led everywhere and then nowhere. But in 2022, cold justice helped breathe fresh air into a case gone stale. And now, eyes were on her roommate, Nicole Rice. Over the years, Nicole's stories changed and kept changing. Other suspects were eliminated and her family was starting to talk. Nicole's alibi for the weekend of the murder turned into a riddle of inconsistencies. She claimed to have been at her parents' farm near Sexton, North Dakota, from Friday night through Monday morning. She claimed she went straight to her job from her parents' house, but her uncle testified he saw Nicole and her mother turn back towards Minot on the morning of the murder, with angry facial expressions like they were arguing. Her aunt said Nicole confessed to going to a bar on Saturday night and then going back to the apartment to change clothes.

Speaker 16:
[47:28] Said that Nikki did not spend Saturday night at the farm, and the family believes she must have stayed in Minot at the apartment.

Speaker 14:
[47:39] Yeah, I don't think she was at the farm. They were saying she was in Syxton with them.

Speaker 16:
[47:45] Right.

Speaker 14:
[47:46] She was not in Syxton, I know that, because she was at 41 bar that night.

Speaker 3:
[47:51] It came to light after the murder that Nikki took a detour from her parents' farm to a local bar on Saturday night, where she stayed late and drank a lot.

Speaker 19:
[48:03] You stated back then that one of your unanswered questions was why Nikki showed up at her parents' house at 8.30 in the morning on Sunday, June 3rd, when Nikki Thomas rarely gets out of bed before noon. And Kevin told you he had some unanswered questions in regards to Anita's murder and his daughter's possible involvement.

Speaker 3:
[48:26] Nicole even slipped and admitted to her aunt that at one point, she'd gone back to the apartment after leaving the bar, so she could change clothes.

Speaker 19:
[48:35] And you know why this is significant, Brenda and Mark. Y'all get it, right? You understand that this is the very time when we believe Anita was murdered. This window of time right here that you're talking about, right here in this paragraph. Did you know that?

Speaker 14:
[48:51] Yes, we didn't think about it yet, but now that you bring it up.

Speaker 19:
[48:56] Because we believe that Anita was murdered at 448 Sunday morning. So Saturday night, rolling into Sunday morning is when we think the murder happened. So this line where Brenda states, Nicky made the comment after leaving the 41 Club in Russo, Nicky actually went back to Minot, to her apartment to get some clothes that night. And the following morning is when she shows up and Kevin says, why are you up so early?

Speaker 3:
[49:25] Nicole also let go of some damaging details that she should not have had the knowledge of. Like what Anita had on her body on the morning she was found dead. Only detectives or the killer would have known this.

Speaker 18:
[49:40] She did mention like a white robe that she had put on her or something about a white robe. I remember that. I just don't know quite what about it.

Speaker 3:
[49:50] Detectives who were on the scene verified that no one, including Nicole, would have had access to the bedroom before Nicole's body was removed. The only person who caught a glimpse of her was Anita's own dad. And there was more.

Speaker 19:
[50:05] This is something else, Brenda, where you said in another conversation you had with Nikki, Nikki told you there was a bowl of water in the bathroom sink at Nikki's apartment, and this was where the person responsible for killing Anita washed themselves up and also washed the knife up used in the stabbing.

Speaker 10:
[50:25] Yes, I remember that.

Speaker 19:
[50:27] Okay. Do you remember Nikki telling you that the only thing Nikki cared about was that the person who killed Anita also stole Nikki's iPod?

Speaker 10:
[50:38] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[50:38] Practically everyone who knew Nicole was concerned about her iPod. In fact, police remembered that rather than being remorseful over her dead roommate, it was the first thing she pointed out. And the knife that was cleaned? Nicole was familiar with knives.

Speaker 16:
[50:55] And she has no problem, you know, shooting and gutting deer and doing all that stuff.

Speaker 14:
[51:01] No problem at all with that stuff.

Speaker 16:
[51:03] And I think maybe you had mentioned earlier that Nikki rarely went to the farm. Like she didn't go home to the farm every weekend, did she?

Speaker 3:
[51:11] When she did go home, she usually slept on the couch. But her coworker recalled something unusual about her sleeping arrangements the day of the murder.

Speaker 15:
[51:20] And she had said that she had spent the weekend with her parents. And they said, yes, she was with them all the time, so she couldn't have done that, right? Well, when they get there, she comes in and she said, I'm really upset with my dad because he told me that I had to get in there and get all that stuff cleaned up so I'd have a place to stay. So he wasn't going to, she said, he did not want her to come to the house and stay with them, which I thought was her roommates gets brutally murdered. And they tell her she can't come home and spend the night with them, that she's got to clean up that mess and stay there.

Speaker 3:
[51:59] Just about everything tying Nicole to the murder was circumstantial. But in totality, this was enough to bring her in for some final questioning.

Speaker 17:
[52:09] So I stay pretty quiet. The page for her, I feel like I'm not even allowed to say anything, which is hard for me.

Speaker 21:
[52:22] But in all reality, you weren't that close to Anita.

Speaker 17:
[52:26] I mean, we were for a little while and then we just, yeah, we just kind of drifted, so.

Speaker 21:
[52:29] In fact, you were planning on moving out at some point in Kandahar.

Speaker 17:
[52:32] We thought about getting just, you know, because with our different schedules and stuff, it just, it was hard because she would come home sometimes and be really noisy. And or I would, you know, be there sleeping and she's, it's not fair to her to have to be quiet because I'm sleeping.

Speaker 21:
[52:49] People said you called Anita a bitch and a whore.

Speaker 17:
[52:52] Oh my gosh, and people can say that I would never do that. I honestly had nothing, I had nothing against her. We fought over alarm clock. We fought like just roommates, you know, roommate stuff. I would never say that about her.

Speaker 16:
[53:04] Okay. I mean, all these people have no reason to say horrible things about you.

Speaker 17:
[53:10] I don't know why they are, you guys. I, I was not there. I would have never done anything like this to her.

Speaker 16:
[53:16] I think it was an accident.

Speaker 8:
[53:18] No, absolutely an accident.

Speaker 17:
[53:20] It was not.

Speaker 21:
[53:20] Look, there's a chain of interrelated behavior. This is just one thing. There's DNA, there's your statements. There's other things here. And here's the bottom line. These detectives have been working on this for years now.

Speaker 17:
[53:33] I know.

Speaker 21:
[53:33] And it's pointing to one person. You gotta understand this. There's gonna be mercy or there's gonna be justice here for the person who did this.

Speaker 17:
[53:40] There should be justice.

Speaker 21:
[53:41] There should be mercy too, maybe, in some cases, like the detective said there. This was an accident.

Speaker 17:
[53:46] But it wasn't an accident.

Speaker 2:
[53:48] I didn't do anything.

Speaker 3:
[53:50] Detectives place together what they think happened. And it happened within eight hours. Nicole says she was at her parents' farm, but later admitted she went to a bar for a while. The window was approximately from 11:30 p.m. on Saturday, June 2nd to 8:30 a.m. on Sunday, June 3rd.

Speaker 21:
[54:10] Do you know William May?

Speaker 7:
[54:12] Yeah. I do.

Speaker 21:
[54:13] How do you know him?

Speaker 17:
[54:14] Um, we dated a few times and then we quit dating for a while, and then we just dated again probably right before I met my husband.

Speaker 21:
[54:23] If someone told you you were at a party with William, and you said you killed Anita, would they be lying?

Speaker 17:
[54:28] I'd say we'd definitely be lying. That would be a horrible thing for anybody to say.

Speaker 21:
[54:35] Did you tell people you failed the polygraph on this test?

Speaker 2:
[54:38] No, no.

Speaker 17:
[54:39] I never failed a polygraph.

Speaker 21:
[54:41] That's not true.

Speaker 16:
[54:43] Nicole, do you remember a guy named Matt Hanson?

Speaker 17:
[54:46] Yeah, he was my boss.

Speaker 16:
[54:48] Yeah. And he told us that you were at work when the police called and asked you to come to the apartment. You were at lunch.

Speaker 17:
[54:56] No, I was. I was with Kayla at lunch.

Speaker 16:
[54:59] He went to you and told you that you need to go to your apartment. The police need you there. And do you remember what you said to him?

Speaker 17:
[55:06] I don't remember saying anything to him.

Speaker 16:
[55:07] Because he remembers, because he was taken aback by it.

Speaker 17:
[55:10] I don't remember.

Speaker 19:
[55:11] I think he told him no.

Speaker 16:
[55:12] He said, no, I'm not going there. It's just my roommate. She's a crackhead.

Speaker 17:
[55:15] Oh my God. Are you kidding me? All these people are saying these horrible things. Okay, I'm going to be done talking because I don't have anything else to say.

Speaker 3:
[55:23] You know how some people are really convincing when they lie and others revert to childlike behavior? Throughout the entire interview, Nicole was the victim, not Anita. Whether she committed the murder or not, the truth had come out. And that truth was that she did not get along with Anita. She didn't like the noise, the alarm clock, the, well, the inconvenience of a roommate.

Speaker 17:
[55:53] Like I want the person found too, because I want my life back.

Speaker 21:
[55:58] There's phone records, there's DNA.

Speaker 17:
[56:00] I know, I gave mine.

Speaker 21:
[56:02] There's animal hair.

Speaker 17:
[56:04] Well, I don't, I mean, I have cats at the farm.

Speaker 21:
[56:07] Right. How would your cat here get on her?

Speaker 17:
[56:10] I don't know, does anybody else she was hanging out without a cat? I mean, I was at the farm on the weekends. Like I was never in her room. Like you guys, I, do I need to get a lawyer?

Speaker 3:
[56:21] Yes, she needed a lawyer. She was under arrest. And for someone who says she was never in Anita's room, Nicole gave her co-worker one more detail that stuck.

Speaker 15:
[56:33] I told the police that why would I, it couldn't have been, why do they think it's even me? Why would I have to cut the screen and go in there when I lived in the apartment? And when she said that, she locked eyes with me like she knew she'd blown it, because I knew darn well if she'd gotten into a fight with her and wanted to fight her, she would have to get a knife to get through the window. And then she's in there angry with the knife. And I think that she knew that I put that together because she had already told me that.

Speaker 3:
[57:08] The trial of Nicole Rice for the 2007 murder of her roommate, Anita Knutson, started on March 17th, 2025. It was held in Grand Forks, North Dakota, after a change of venue was ordered. Interestingly, the prosecution didn't argue that Nicole had entered through the cut screen in the window. First, because the L cut into the screen appeared to be from the inside and looked staged. And second, after recreating the scenario, they determined it would be extremely difficult for someone to enter without tearing the L further. They believe Nicole returned sometime Saturday night or early Sunday morning after being at a bar. Probably, she went to sleep. But then that damned alarm went off at 4:30 a.m. like it always did. Anita had her dad install an extra lock on her bedroom door, simply because she was afraid of Nicole. But that night, her door was likely open because she wasn't expecting Nicole to return. So Nicole allegedly went into her room and stabbed Anita twice in the chest in a fit of rage. Anita had only enough time to sit up in shock before she slumped over forward. The most salient point the prosecution raised was that only two people had a key to the apartment, Anita and Nicole. The door was locked on the morning that the manager and Anita's dad found her. It is my understanding that you have reached a verdict, correct?

Speaker 4:
[58:48] The court will now have the clerk read the verdict.

Speaker 22:
[58:52] State of North Dakota, in district court, County of Ward, North Central Judicial District. State of North Dakota plaintiff versus Nicole Erin Rice defendant, criminal number 51-2022-CR-00421, verdict form. We, the jury duly and paladins, were and find the defendant, Nicole Erin Rice, not guilty of... Grand Forks, North Dakota, this 26th day of March 2025.

Speaker 3:
[59:24] In the end, the state couldn't bridge the gap between suspicion and proof. There was no forensic match tying Nicole to the weapon or the screen. The knife carried a mixed DNA profile and no print or trace evidence pointed cleanly to her. Two young women with promising lives, carrying walls, alarms, routines, seemingly small frictions that pile up like dishes in a sink. A key that's hard to copy, a door that locks from the inside, a window that may or may not mean what it looks like. Roommates are the people closest to our quietest habits. They know who we call at 5 a.m. They know when we sleep. They know which light we leave on. And they know every other little thing that may annoy them. When violence enters a space that intimate, evidence has to speak louder than memory, rumor and grief. Here, it didn't. Nicole Thomas, now Nicole Rice, was acquitted. She kept a low profile and returned to a life outside the courthouse. Meanwhile, Anita does not have a life to return to.

Speaker 8:
[60:53] I was in college going through just college life stuff. I wish I could have called her, talked to her about just the problems I was having.

Speaker 3:
[61:02] That was Anita's sister feeling the absence. Anita's family carries the loss every day. And their grief deepened when Anita's brother, Danielle, committed suicide in 2013. Just six years after Anita died, leaving only one child and a broken family with no clear answers. Well, thank you once again for joining us, assholes. We appreciate you. If you haven't checked out our YouTube channel, please do so. You can find it at youtube.com/swordandscaletv. There you can get every one of our episodes of our TV show, All Three Seasons, that's still ongoing, for just 10 bucks. And then you can add on the audio podcast for another 10. It's the opposite of what we do on our website, which is 10 bucks for the audio and then another 10 bucks for the video. It's the inverse. So pick whichever one you like. All right, that's going to do it. If you don't mind, please leave us a five-star review, because we're a five-star program, god damn it, on iTunes or wherever you see a place to do it. That would be nice. Maybe tell a friend or two. It'd be great if you did, because nobody does anymore. And nobody comes around and tells us what a great job we're doing anymore. They just complain and bitch and moan and moan and complain and bitch and moan. Again, just keeps going like a big endless circle, like a big loop. Yeah, life of a creator. See you next week.