transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:00] I founded Cook's Magazine back in 1980, and the last, well, 45 years, I've never had the chance to speak openly and frankly about the food world, recipes, travel, and food celebrities. That is until now. My new sub-stack allows me to speak directly to you, to home cooks, including my own personal recipes, cooking, food science, Vermont, as well as what I'm watching and reading. Plus, I will be interviewing culinary stars to find out what they are really like. Paid subscribers get exclusive recipes, some from my travels, others from my own personal repertoire. Founding members get those recipes. Plus, direct access to me personally, plus a tote bag and a signed copy of the Milk Street Cookbook. So go subscribe at christopherkimball.substack.com. One more time, christopherkimball.substack.com. Thanks to our friends at SHIP for sponsoring this episode. In the kitchen in the middle of a recipe, same-day delivery from a supermarket can be a beautiful thing. SHIPP offers same-day delivery and groceries, but they also deliver decor, gifts and so much more from your favorite local and national stores. Personal shoppers with SHIP shop your favorite store same day, and by the way, they know the difference between cilantro and parsley, almond milk and oat milk. You can even text one-on-one with your shopper to fulfill special requests or to get exactly what you want. Plus, SHIP members can place as many orders as they want and pay zero dollars in delivery fees with orders over $35. If you love to cook and are missing a key ingredient, you run out of flour or maybe cocoa powder, SHIP can get it to you the same day, so you don't have to run to the store. With SHIP, it's never just a delivery order. It's shopped same day in the same way you would. Use code PODCAST to get a year of SHIPPED for only $49. That's half off the regular $99 price at SHIPPEDCOM slash OFFER. That's SHIPPEDCOM slash OFFER term supply. Over the years, I've found that having high-quality cookware makes absolutely all the difference, but the problem is price. So let me introduce you to Quince. They offer stainless steel high-end cookware, to a cast iron Dutch oven, to ceramic nonstick, plus Japanese Damascus knives, flatware glassware, even wines from the Napa Valley. Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes those savings on to us. A five-ply skillet is under $100, or a five-piece ceramic nonstick collection is under $200. Plus, I just bought a set of gorgeous beaded tumbler glasses from Quince that are now my family's favorite glassware. Upgrade your kitchen with Quince. Go to quince.com/milk for free shipping and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com/milk for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/milk. This is Milk Street Radio from PRX and I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Today we're going inside an international black market. The goods were smuggled in duffel bags. The deals were made at night on back roads and it came crashing down in an undercover sting operation. All of this happened for a taste of eel.
Speaker 2:
[03:26] Even people that would never put an eel to their mouth, oh, I'll never eat, I'll never taste that. And then they have it and they're like, oh my goodness. And they love it.
Speaker 1:
[03:37] Later on the show, reporter Otis Gray brings us the story of America's eel boom. But first I'm joined by my co-host Sara Moulton to answer a few of your cooking questions. Sara is, of course, the star of Sara's Weeknight Meals on Public Television. Her latest book is Home Cooking 101.
Speaker 3:
[03:58] Chris, I have a very important question for you. You know, in the New Yorker magazine, the interview authors, their last question always is, if you could have three people over for dinner, alive or dead, who would they be?
Speaker 1:
[04:12] I think we've talked about this before. Lincoln, absolutely, because I gather he was a master storyteller and he had a wry wit and sense of humor. I think Genghis Khan, who was probably the most interesting historical figure. Of course, he killed millions of people, but he was a bit ruthless, but he created a 4,000-mile empire, so he's a pretty amazing guy. And the third, one of my favorite people of all time, I never met, Richard Feynman. He was a physicist with an incredible sense of humor. He was the guy who figured out why the O-rings had a problem with a challenger because it was too cold. So one of the things he used to do was he used to challenge people. He'd go into their office if they had a safe, and he would say, I could crack your safe within an hour. So we go in, he cracked the safe in 30 seconds because he realized no one had reset the numbers from 0, 0, 0. So he'd open the safe, he'd bring a sandwich and a book, and he'd read it for an hour to make it look like he was working hard. He had a sense of humor and he was a brilliant physicist. So those are the three people. And what about you?
Speaker 3:
[05:14] Well, mine are contemporary, and I keep thinking, well, maybe I'll just call them cold, even though I don't know them, just because I love them.
Speaker 1:
[05:22] Share?
Speaker 3:
[05:23] No, one would be somebody you just interviewed recently, that'd be Dwight Garner.
Speaker 1:
[05:26] Oh yeah, he's great. He's a book reviewer for the New York Times.
Speaker 3:
[05:29] Oh, I just love everything he writes.
Speaker 1:
[05:31] He's outstanding.
Speaker 3:
[05:32] Oh, maybe also Pete Wells. He's the restaurant reviewer for the New York Times and he just resigned. I read everything he...
Speaker 1:
[05:38] He's a great writer.
Speaker 3:
[05:39] Even if I have no interest in the restaurant whatsoever, he's just such a great writer. The third one is Roz Chast, the cartoonist. Particularly during COVID, she was hysterical.
Speaker 1:
[05:50] Well, is she good at conversation, though?
Speaker 3:
[05:52] I have no idea. I don't care. I just adore her.
Speaker 1:
[05:54] That's a great list.
Speaker 3:
[05:56] Yeah.
Speaker 1:
[05:56] The most interesting thing is I want to have dead people, and you want to have living people. Well, I guess that's a difference.
Speaker 3:
[06:02] Well, because you sort of wonder what those dead people would be like, and I guess I wonder what the live people would be like, but I pretty much have an idea because I read them all the time.
Speaker 1:
[06:10] Two people, very different lists.
Speaker 3:
[06:12] Yeah, there we go.
Speaker 1:
[06:12] Let's take a call.
Speaker 3:
[06:14] Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 4:
[06:16] This is Debbie Mickenon from Louisville, Kentucky.
Speaker 3:
[06:19] Hi, Debbie. How can we help you?
Speaker 4:
[06:21] Well, I have a family recipe that I've been making for decades that calls for cake yeast. Since I moved from Chicago to Louisville, I can no longer find cake yeast, so that's a problem. I did try making this recipe with dry yeast, and it just didn't turn out right. Now, the recipe calls for first proofing in the refrigerator. When I used the dry yeast, I did not proof it in the refrigerator, but just at room temperature.
Speaker 3:
[06:59] What happened with the rolls that you didn't like? How were they different?
Speaker 4:
[07:02] They were different in texture and taste. These are butterhorns and they normally should have a very almost satiny taste to them or satiny feel to them, and these were a little bit less satiny and the taste was just a little bit off, just not as tasty, just a bit flavorless.
Speaker 3:
[07:22] Probably because they didn't rise as long because you didn't do it in the fridge, right? You normally do it in the fridge, you said.
Speaker 4:
[07:28] I do, but they seemed also to over proof or rise too quickly at room temperature.
Speaker 3:
[07:36] Well here's a question, how about, so you used active dry yeast, which ironically has the least amount of active yeast in it of all your choices. The better choice would be the instant yeast. That's what I would recommend using. And you can look for the proportion of how much instant dry yeast you should use in place of the cake yeast. And then you could certainly let it rise in the fridge. Chris, what do you think?
Speaker 1:
[08:02] Two questions. What proportion were you using of active yeast to the cake yeast?
Speaker 4:
[08:09] The recipe for the, with the cake yeast calls for two ounces. So it's that kind of small rectangular foil package. And I use three packets of the dry yeast.
Speaker 1:
[08:22] You should be using slightly less than half by weight of the dry yeast. The second thing is, how long did the recipe call for the slow ferment in the fridge? Was it overnight?
Speaker 4:
[08:32] Two hours.
Speaker 3:
[08:34] That's not so slow.
Speaker 1:
[08:36] How much flour to the cake yeast?
Speaker 4:
[08:38] Three cups of flour.
Speaker 1:
[08:40] It sounds like it has a lot of yeast for three cups of flour, like three or four times more than you think. Okay, here's my first theory. I wonder whether because it's a slow ferment in the fridge, you're putting a lot of yeast into it, and so that then you take it out, you shape it, you finish it up for another hour. I wonder if the amount of yeast in the recipe is what's giving you that flavor you're missing with the dry yeast. Because I think it's very yeasty by the time you're finished with it, right?
Speaker 3:
[09:08] Yeah, that sounds right.
Speaker 1:
[09:09] Yeah, I think that's what's going on. You have a massive amount of yeast in this, and you like the flavor, and that's why the dry active yeast is not giving you anything like that.
Speaker 4:
[09:20] That makes total sense.
Speaker 3:
[09:22] But then she's stuck. What's she going to do?
Speaker 1:
[09:24] Buy cake yeast online. I don't know.
Speaker 3:
[09:28] It's a perishable product.
Speaker 1:
[09:30] Or up the amount of active yeast and do the same thing, right? I mean, double or triple the amount of yeast, put it in the fridge for two hours and see if it doubles, then you know you have about the right amount of yeast. That's what I would do. If it doubles in two hours in the fridge, you've got a lot more yeast action going on if it doubles at room temperature in two hours.
Speaker 4:
[09:51] So in general, is there a difference in how bread or roll is going to taste, whether using cake yeast or dry yeast?
Speaker 1:
[10:01] I don't think so. I think what's going on, this recipe just has a lot of yeast. By the way, I just pulled out my phone. On Amazon, you can buy a fresh yeast cake, two ounces, six pack.
Speaker 3:
[10:11] Oh, we like that.
Speaker 1:
[10:12] There you go.
Speaker 4:
[10:12] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[10:13] I mean, that's going to solve your problem. What's the name of the recipe again? One more time.
Speaker 4:
[10:17] Butterhorns.
Speaker 1:
[10:17] Was this recipe came from the old country at some point? What was that? Yes.
Speaker 4:
[10:22] Sweden. My aunt immigrated from Sweden. So this was one of her family recipes, which she brought with her.
Speaker 1:
[10:30] I'm going to go check this out.
Speaker 4:
[10:31] Great.
Speaker 1:
[10:32] Okay. Thank you and good luck. I'm going to try it too.
Speaker 3:
[10:35] Yes.
Speaker 4:
[10:36] Great.
Speaker 1:
[10:36] Okay.
Speaker 4:
[10:37] Well, thank you for your help.
Speaker 1:
[10:38] Sure.
Speaker 3:
[10:38] Okay. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:
[10:39] Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 5:
[10:41] Hi, this is Tyler calling from Charleston, South Carolina.
Speaker 1:
[10:44] How are you?
Speaker 5:
[10:45] I'm doing well.
Speaker 1:
[10:47] How can we help you?
Speaker 5:
[10:48] I've got a bit of a conundrum. I was recently given a ridiculous amount of bell peppers. I've been able to give some away, but I've still got about a dozen bell peppers waiting to be used. I've been putting them in soup. We've been doing stir-fry. What in the world can I do with the rest of these bell peppers?
Speaker 1:
[11:09] It's no good if it calls for a pepper or two. I would go with something. Mahamara uses a lot of red pepper. That wonderful sort of paste that you have as sort of an appetizer with bread or roasted or red pepper soup would be great. You grill or roast them, peel them, put them in the freezer in packs of two. And then you don't have to worry about it because you can use it at any time, right?
Speaker 5:
[11:33] Yeah, that sounds like a good way to do it. What was that first thing you mentioned?
Speaker 3:
[11:38] Spell it, spell it.
Speaker 1:
[11:39] Muhammara, M-U-H-A-M-M-A-R-A, it's North African.
Speaker 3:
[11:43] I'm sure you have a recipe in the magazine.
Speaker 1:
[11:44] Yeah. Red peppers is sort of the basis for it. Or a gazpacho, make gazpacho with peppers instead of tomatoes or some combination. That's the other thing I would do.
Speaker 3:
[11:54] Right.
Speaker 1:
[11:54] There are different kinds of gazpacho.
Speaker 3:
[11:56] Chris and I are both assuming red. Is that correct?
Speaker 5:
[11:59] Red and green, handful of the yellow ones in there too.
Speaker 3:
[12:02] Second question, why would anybody give you so many peppers?
Speaker 1:
[12:06] It's re-gifting.
Speaker 5:
[12:07] It's kind of re-gifting.
Speaker 4:
[12:08] I see.
Speaker 5:
[12:10] The company that my girlfriend works for received a donation that was a lot of red peppers and they can't use all of them and we just don't want them to go to waste.
Speaker 1:
[12:20] Wait, wait, wait. The company got a donation of red peppers?
Speaker 4:
[12:25] Yes.
Speaker 5:
[12:26] She works for the local zoo and occasionally they will get donations from the local big box stores, Costco's, Sam's Clubs, etc. This time it happened to be a gigantic palette of bell peppers.
Speaker 1:
[12:42] No animals in the zoo eat them?
Speaker 3:
[12:44] No elephants interested?
Speaker 5:
[12:45] The number of animals at the zoo who enjoy bell peppers are in the same boat that I am where we just have way too many bell peppers.
Speaker 3:
[12:52] Oh dear. I had one last suggestion. I thought Chris came up with some good ones. So the rest of them, we were both advising that you'd broil or grill and peel and then you got them ready for like with sausage or just to throw into a pasta. But another thought is you can puree the red pepper and then it becomes a sauce. You can add it to vinaigrette like I would add sherry vinegar and really nice olive oil and make it into sort of a vinaigrette or a sauce for fish. Or you could toss it with pasta. So turn it into a sauce or you could roast them, puree them and then freeze them in the pureed state. There you go.
Speaker 1:
[13:29] Well, the other possibility is you regift them to somebody else's roasted red peppers and oil and you're good to go. By the way, that's one of my favorite pantry ingredients. Roasted red peppers, you throw them in your pantry.
Speaker 3:
[13:41] A little garlic.
Speaker 1:
[13:41] They're really good. I hope that is modestly helpful.
Speaker 3:
[13:44] Yes.
Speaker 5:
[13:45] It has been incredibly helpful.
Speaker 1:
[13:47] All right.
Speaker 3:
[13:48] Great.
Speaker 1:
[13:48] Take care. Good luck.
Speaker 5:
[13:49] We're rooting for you. Thank you guys very much.
Speaker 3:
[13:51] Bye.
Speaker 1:
[13:52] This is Milk Street Radio. Sara and I are here to answer your cooking questions. Give us a ring anytime, our number, 855-426-9843. One more time, 855-426-9843, or simply email us at questions at milkstreetradio.com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 6:
[14:14] This is Judy from Beach Island, South Carolina.
Speaker 1:
[14:17] How are you? I'm good.
Speaker 6:
[14:19] How are you?
Speaker 1:
[14:20] I'm good. How can we help you?
Speaker 6:
[14:22] I have been trying to recreate my grandmother's recipe for chocolate chest pie. And I found a recipe that isn't quite right, but is very close. Sugar, cocoa, eggs, butter, and evaporated milk. And a pinch of salt and a teaspoon of vanilla. So very simple. But when I make it every now and then, it separates into two layers. So I wondered if you could tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Speaker 1:
[14:50] Do you always use evaporated milk or sometimes you switch it out for fresh dairy?
Speaker 6:
[14:55] I have used half and half. And I have not found this separation to occur only with evaporated milk or only with half and half.
Speaker 1:
[15:05] Darn.
Speaker 6:
[15:06] I was thinking maybe I over beat the eggs or something.
Speaker 1:
[15:10] Are you pouring this into an unbaked pie shell and the mixture is cold?
Speaker 6:
[15:15] Yes.
Speaker 1:
[15:16] Here's one thing that you might try. What I do with any kind of custard pie, you could call this a custard pie because it has milk and eggs, is to warm it while stirring on top of the stove and get it up to like a sub-simmer. I would pre-bake my shell for this kind of pie, take it out, let it cool just a little bit, maybe 10 minutes or so, and then pour the warm filling into the warm shell. And that way, you're only going to need another 15 or 20 minutes of baking it, maybe 325 to 350.
Speaker 6:
[15:49] 325 for 45 minutes.
Speaker 1:
[15:51] It could be that that long baking time could be a problem. Also, if you over-bake with the eggs, it's like any custard pie, you are going to see leaking. But you talk about separation. So what's on the top and what's on the bottom?
Speaker 6:
[16:04] The chocolatey part is on the bottom, and the part underneath is glistening. I mean, it tastes fine, but it looks kind of weird. And it's two very distinct layers.
Speaker 1:
[16:14] Sounds like the chocolate layer has a higher specific density. It's denser and heavier and is falling to the bottom. And I think if you make sure you whisk it really well, put it in a saucepan, heat it to sub-simmer, just to start to bubble around the edges, and put that in a warm pie shell and get that in the oven, I think it's going to cook quick enough. And also during part of the cooking, you're whisking. I think that'll solve the problem. That would be my guess. Sara?
Speaker 3:
[16:39] What's bothering me about your suggestion, Chris, although it sort of makes sense.
Speaker 1:
[16:43] Is it came from me? Is that the problem?
Speaker 3:
[16:46] No, it's that I've never seen, not that I've made a lot of chess pies, but I've never seen a chess pie where you did that. Doesn't mean that it's not a good idea. When you say it separates into two layers, one of them is sort of greasy?
Speaker 6:
[16:58] Yeah, the bottom is shiny, greasy, and the top is sort of frosty.
Speaker 3:
[17:04] It seems like maybe the butter, you know, separated out a bit. Question, so you said you think you're overbeating the eggs. How are you supposed to mix it? What are the instructions?
Speaker 6:
[17:13] It just says combine sugar, cocoa and margarine. Of course, I use real butter, as my grandmother would have. Add well beaten egg, evaporated milk, salt and vanilla, pour into unbaked nine inch pie shell.
Speaker 3:
[17:26] What I'm thinking is maybe it just really needed to be mixed better because the butter is separating out.
Speaker 1:
[17:32] Have you made this recipe or someone else's or your grandmother mother made this recipe and it worked just fine?
Speaker 6:
[17:38] I have made this recipe in trying to recreate my grandmother's recipe. I have made this recipe 50 times and I would say maybe 8 to 10 times it has separated.
Speaker 1:
[17:50] The only thing I'd say about using half and half is that's going to be much more prone to curdling or separating than evaporated milk. Evaporated milk is much more stable.
Speaker 3:
[18:00] Yeah.
Speaker 7:
[18:00] Well, you gave me some ideas.
Speaker 3:
[18:02] Okay.
Speaker 1:
[18:02] Now, I want chocolate chess pie.
Speaker 3:
[18:04] Yeah, really, Judy, and let us know how it goes.
Speaker 6:
[18:07] I will. I'm going to make one and I'll make sure it's well mixed and I'll let you know how it turns out.
Speaker 1:
[18:12] At least heat it up a little bit before you put it in the pie shell. Okay, we'll do.
Speaker 6:
[18:16] Thanks for the tip. Bye bye.
Speaker 1:
[18:18] Bye bye. You're listening to Milk Street Radio. After the break, the wild world of eel fishing. Thanks to our sponsor IQ Bar. IQ Bar protein bars, IQ Mix hydration mixes, and IQ Joe mushroom coffees provide the low sugar brain and body fuel you need every day. IQ Bar plant protein bars, my favorite as well, blueberry, contain lots of added fiber and no added sugar. IQ Mix is a zero sugar drink mix that hydrates with electrolytes, improves mood and boosts clarity. And IQ Joe is a jitter-free instant coffee packed with 200 milligrams of natural caffeine, comes in four different flavors. With over 20,000 five-star reviews, more and more people are fueling their busy lifestyles with IQ Bar. Their ultimate sampler pack includes all three, the protein bars, the drink mix, and the instant coffee. And right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20 percent off all IQ Bar products, including the ultimate sampler pack plus free shipping. To get your 20 percent off, text MILK to 64,000. One more time, text MILK to 64,000. That's MILK to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. Wayfair is a great place to shop for furniture and decor to home improvement and outdoor essentials. The even better news is that it's all on sale during Way Day. From April 25th through the 27th, you can get the best deals in home furnishings and up to 80 percent off with free shipping on everything. For mid-century modern, farmhouse, contemporary, and eclectic, they have the styles you really want. Plus, they offer outdoor furniture, rugs, and patio decor, or you can upgrade your furniture or add accent pieces. Their team of product specialists vets everything by hand using a 10-point quality inspection. So you know you're getting a quality piece no matter your budget. I just bought a KitchenAid blender from Wayfair. My mother's Vitamix finally kicked the bucket. So now I can once again make blender cakes, Brazilian cheese puffs, soups and one of my favorites, butter chicken. Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home. Up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. Head to wayfair.com, April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's Wayfair, wayfair.com, Wayfair every style, every home. This is Milk Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Last year, reporter Otis Gray went on the hunt for a rare delicacy, smoked American eel. He'd heard about a guy named Ray Turner, who runs a smokehouse up in Hancock, New York.
Speaker 8:
[21:05] You know anything about Ray Turner? Ray Turner, the eel king?
Speaker 9:
[21:09] Ray Turner, the eel king, yeah.
Speaker 10:
[21:12] Oh. He's trying to find Ray.
Speaker 1:
[21:15] Otis did find Ray, but the bad news was that the eel king no longer fishes for eel.
Speaker 11:
[21:21] It got to a point where it wasn't much fun anymore.
Speaker 12:
[21:24] You know, geyserism is the catalyst.
Speaker 1:
[21:27] Ray smoked eel, used to draw in visitors from across the world, and Otis had just missed out on trying it.
Speaker 11:
[21:32] They were oily, there's no doubt about it, but I can't compare them to anything.
Speaker 12:
[21:37] They were just, you know, nice thin strips of really tasty fish.
Speaker 1:
[21:41] Otis became obsessed with finding someone else who smoked eel. This search led him up to the north coast of Maine, where eel fishing has been making a comeback. But as he found out, this comeback got tangled up with criminal activity. Here's Otis Gray with that story.
Speaker 9:
[21:59] American eel is pretty hard to come by. Hello! How are you? I'm good, how are you doing, Stan? A lot of people have stopped fishing for American eel for reasons we'll get into later, but I was lucky enough to find some.
Speaker 2:
[22:12] We have smoked eel here, and these are kind of smoked the same way that we used to do it, you know, hundreds of years ago.
Speaker 9:
[22:19] I'm with Stan Meater on the edge of the Machias River in northern Maine. Stan is a member of the Pasamaquoddy tribe, an indigenous tribe that's been here for thousands of years. The Pasamaquoddy have been eating eel for a long, long time.
Speaker 2:
[22:32] Usually the meat is white, but after it's smoked, you can see it becomes a little brownish and auburn.
Speaker 9:
[22:37] Dark gold, auburn color. Yeah, it's beautiful. By the time I met Stan, I'd been on a three-month escapade to find smoked American eel, and Northern Maine is one of the only places you can still find it. That is rich. Eels were very popular in the early American diet. They aren't so much these days. Stan says it's mostly because they look like snakes, which they do, but they are delicious.
Speaker 2:
[23:01] It is.
Speaker 9:
[23:01] Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:
[23:02] Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 9:
[23:03] I love that.
Speaker 2:
[23:04] Yeah, it's absolutely delicious. Even people that would never put an eel to their mouth, they'll never taste that. Then they have it, and they're like, oh my goodness, and they love it. I haven't found anybody that doesn't like it yet.
Speaker 9:
[23:24] Eels have baffled people for millennia. No one has seen them reproduce in the wild. Aristotle thought they sprang spontaneously from mud. Pliny thought they multiplied by rubbing themselves against rocks. They are these mythic serpent-like creatures all over the world. But we do know that American and European eels spawn somewhere in the Sargasso Sea, off the coast of the US in the Atlantic Ocean. They travel thousands of miles up coastal rivers before swimming back to the ocean to spawn and die. They can live up to 20 years. Some have even been recorded to live to 80 and grow up to four feet long. And for thousands of years, they were abundant in these rivers. But over the last century, overfishing and dams built along these rivers have made that journey a lot harder. So populations dropped, and here in Maine, it seemed like eel fishing was becoming a relic of the past. Until the last 20 years, when the eel market exploded.
Speaker 13:
[24:20] In some parts of Asia, baby eels are called white diamonds. As they become increasingly rare, their prices are soaring.
Speaker 9:
[24:28] In Japan, overfishing in the last century and a massive 2011 tsunami wiped out 70% of the Japanese eel population.
Speaker 11:
[24:37] The International Union for Conservation of Nature has classified the Japanese eel as an endangered species.
Speaker 9:
[24:44] Eel or unagi is a delicacy in many Asian countries, and the global sushi craze has been raging since the 1970s. With more demand for eel, strict regulations were put in place to protect it. So the Japanese market turned to Europe for their eel supply. The price for eel there skyrocketed, and fishermen couldn't resist the gold rush, breaking the law, catching more than allowed, and giving way to an eel black market that as of 2020, was a multi-billion dollar a year industry.
Speaker 10:
[25:11] Three men facing charges tonight for stealing more than a million dollars worth of, wait for it, frozen eels.
Speaker 9:
[25:18] What the Japanese market was really interested in was baby eels, also called glass eels or elvers, tiny translucent little creatures that are raised to full size in fisheries before being sold and eaten. Smugglers began stowing live glass eels in suitcases to get them overseas.
Speaker 8:
[25:35] You can get up to 100,000 glass eels in one suitcase.
Speaker 9:
[25:41] A suitcase full of baby eels could fetch 100 grand.
Speaker 8:
[25:44] And a year later, that's a million, a million euros worth.
Speaker 9:
[25:48] A million euros worth of full grown eel. The money was too good. Gangs took part in the eel trade. There were standoffs, robberies, raids. So the EU cracked down, making eel exports illegal. Which is when, in the early 2010s, this multi-billion dollar industry turned its sites away from Europe and toward the rural state of Maine, where elver populations were still stable. In less than a year, the idyllic small town rivers of this northeastern state became the center of an international black market.
Speaker 12:
[26:27] This is a traditional tribal drum. It's a hollowed out log with moosehide on it.
Speaker 9:
[26:34] Before American Eels created a global firestorm, they were just part of everyday life for the indigenous tribes of Maine.
Speaker 12:
[26:40] My name is Donald Soctoma. I'm the Passamaquoddy Tribal Historic Preservation Officer.
Speaker 9:
[26:47] I met up with Donald on an overcast day in October. He runs the Passamaquoddy Cultural Heritage Museum, a one-floor roadside office packed to the gills with old Passamaquoddy artifacts, tools, instruments, weapons.
Speaker 12:
[26:59] This one I'm holding in my hand is a stone gouge for making dugout canoes.
Speaker 9:
[27:04] And how old is that, do you think?
Speaker 12:
[27:06] This one's 6,000 years old.
Speaker 9:
[27:08] Get out of here. There's eel stuff too. He has woven eel traps that are at least 100 years old, that could still be used today. And in the back of the office, there's a big shelf filled with these birch bark baskets. The bark is etched with images and stories of tribal history.
Speaker 12:
[27:23] So, I'll show you the etching.
Speaker 9:
[27:26] Donald pulls the basket down.
Speaker 12:
[27:28] Somebody throwing a spear at the deer.
Speaker 9:
[27:30] There's drawings of medicinal plants, a muskrat, salmon.
Speaker 12:
[27:34] And then, you see one of the most important food sources, eels.
Speaker 9:
[27:41] And it's just kind of wrapped around the side of the basket.
Speaker 12:
[27:44] Yep. The eels were important food. There was always a good time when people feasted on eels.
Speaker 9:
[27:56] The Passamaquoddy buried eels in the sand with fires built on top of them, so you could come back in a few days and dig them up, peel the skin off and feast.
Speaker 12:
[28:03] Other times, the eel is split in two and put on sticks over the fire and smoked. It's sort of like beef jerky in a way. You know, it's handy. Won't spoil or anything.
Speaker 9:
[28:17] Naturally, they wriggled their way into local legends.
Speaker 12:
[28:20] Hunters always were wary of this giant eel, sea serpent, the Albu-Dumpkin.
Speaker 9:
[28:27] Protective parents would tell younger kids not to go in the water too much.
Speaker 12:
[28:31] Because the Albu-Dumpkin is going to get you.
Speaker 9:
[28:36] When British settlers landed on the East Coast in the early 1600s, they were famously introduced to corn by the indigenous tribes. But we also know that they were introduced to eel and it was almost surely served at those first Thanksgiving meals.
Speaker 12:
[28:49] Part of our treaty rights always recognized from the 1600s places set aside for eel harvesting areas. That's how important it was.
Speaker 9:
[28:59] Donald says those treaties were later broken and eel fishing was outlawed in the early 1800s.
Speaker 12:
[29:04] That was a food source that was taken away from us.
Speaker 9:
[29:07] In the following century, the invention of dams for cotton and lumber and then later electricity decimated the eel population. Many Passamaquoddy were driven from the lands where they fish for eel. So, for the tribespeople who survived, their diets drastically changed.
Speaker 12:
[29:22] Eel was built into our DNA. You know, our body craved the eel.
Speaker 9:
[29:27] By the time Donald was a kid in the 1950s, the traditions around eel fishing were mostly gone.
Speaker 14:
[29:40] It's about mid-tide, it's not low. Sometimes there's ice on these rocks.
Speaker 9:
[29:45] About 20 minutes north of the Tribal Museum, I met up with Joseph Socavason. He's the vice chief of the Paso Maquoddy. Former cop, has a permanent smile. We stumbled down some rocks to a bank on the St. Croix River. On the other side was Canada. This is where Joseph fishes for eels.
Speaker 14:
[30:02] It's a beautiful river, and it's a river that our tribe has been coming to for thousands of years.
Speaker 9:
[30:09] Joseph says, this is the perfect spot, where fresh water is flowing into salt water. And for a brief window in March, locals flock down to this river to fish for eel. They spread these wide nets and pockets of the river at night, and they wait. But not for fully grown eels like they would have centuries ago.
Speaker 14:
[30:25] No, this is for the baby black eels.
Speaker 9:
[30:28] This is where you're fishing for elvers?
Speaker 14:
[30:30] Yes, yes.
Speaker 15:
[30:34] For a few short weeks in the springtime, the Mad Rush is on to harvest glass eels or elvers from local rivers and streams.
Speaker 9:
[30:43] While the demand for unagi and eel sushi is global, the Japanese market and other Asian markets make up the vast majority of it. So after the crash of the Japanese eel fisheries and the outlawing of European elver exports, the market turned to Maine in 2012. Well, before the rush, the price for elvers was $185 a pound. Two years later, it jumped to $2,000.
Speaker 14:
[31:05] The price can change from day to day, but $2,000 a pound. Yeah.
Speaker 11:
[31:10] And you can do that in maybe a night.
Speaker 14:
[31:12] Oh, you can do much more than that.
Speaker 9:
[31:14] Immediately, anyone with a net and bucket was rushing out to these rivers to catch as many as they could. With that much cash being passed around, fishermen were afraid of getting robbed. Things started getting out of hand.
Speaker 2:
[31:25] Almost everybody was carrying firearms.
Speaker 9:
[31:27] It was really the wild west. Elver fishing in the US is only legal in two states, South Carolina and Maine. But Maine has a higher elver population and is the only state set up to export internationally, thanks to a guy named Bill Sheldon in the 1970s. People from out of state were illegally catching elvers up and down the East Coast, smuggling them into Maine in duffel bags to sell them.
Speaker 15:
[31:48] Bill Sheldon isn't just a dealer, he is widely credited with creating Maine's elver market.
Speaker 9:
[31:55] For four decades, Sheldon had a pretty humble reputation. But after the eel boom, he became known as Maine's eel kingpin and was recognizable for wearing this flashy patchwork fur coat.
Speaker 10:
[32:06] I'd travel around with half a million or three-quarters of a million dollars in cash in my truck at night.
Speaker 9:
[32:12] People were catching way more elvers than the state allowed, so the federal government stepped in and set up a sting operation called Broken Glass. Glass eels, get it? Undercover agents would sell elvers to dealers without permits to see if they'd go for the extra cash. Bill Sheldon himself and a few other big dealers fell for the sting. Sheldon was sentenced to six months in prison in 2018, where he wrote poetry about it.
Speaker 10:
[32:34] I'm 71 and lived my life free from crime. I never did think I'd be doing jail time. Then along came a warden with eels to sell, and tragically into his trap I soon fell.
Speaker 9:
[32:47] Since then, strict catch limits were put in place with a lot of enforcement behind it. Every sale is meticulously documented, and by 2020, this short, lawless eel rush in Maine came to a close. Now, the state issues about 1,000 Elver licenses each year. 550 of those belong exclusively to the Pasamaquoddy tribe. And even after stricter regulations, Elver fishing is still very lucrative.
Speaker 14:
[33:14] It's almost like Christmas morning when you come down to check your net, because you just don't know. It could be 100 eels, it could be 2 lbs of eels.
Speaker 9:
[33:25] The price still averages about $2,000 a pound. And you're allowed to catch up to 5 lbs a season, which lasts about a week, meaning you could rake in 10 grand in less than 7 days.
Speaker 14:
[33:35] We all look forward to it. It really has a positive impact in our community. It brings over a million dollars in less than 10 days. And, you know, it's just, it's nice to see people have a little bit of comfort and not have to worry about money for that time of year anyway.
Speaker 9:
[34:05] Eel fishing may not be what it once was in America, but in the aftermath of this elver gold rush, tribal historian Donald Sokdama says it has rekindled something for the Passamaquoddy. The smoked eel I had by the river was made by American Unagi, a company in Maine that buys American elvers and raises them domestically so they don't have to be shipped overseas, raised, and shipped back. It is the first of its kind in the US. The company buys directly from the Passamaquoddy and has plans to expand within Maine in hopes of making eel a regional export, just like lobster. When I asked Donald if he feels optimistic about the future of the eel, he goes into a story about an elver he once saw inching its way up a vertical dam.
Speaker 12:
[34:58] I said, wow, that's determination right there. And that's how we are. We've been surrounded by a non-tribal community for 400 years, but we still speak our language. That's how strong our culture is. We've been determined to survive and keep our DNA alive in this world. Eels, they're a strong animal. It's a survivor, just like us.
Speaker 1:
[35:36] Special thanks to Otis Gray, who reported this story for Milk Street. Otis is a radio producer from rural Vermont, and also the host of the Sleepy Podcast, where he reads old books to help people sleep. You're listening to Milk Street Radio. Coming up, Kenji López-Alt reveals his trick for perfect scrambled eggs. Hi, this is Christopher Kimball. You know, Shipt makes recipe testing at Milk Street of Breeze with same-day delivery on everything we need to get our recipes just right. Now here's Milk Street recipe developer Rose Hadaba with a new take on a classic breakfast sponsored by Shipt.
Speaker 16:
[36:22] Hi, this is Rose. Let's talk about French toast. Our recipe team here at Milk Street decided to take your favorite weekend breakfast and make it absolutely perfect. We wanted a French toast that ticked all of the boxes. Crispy exterior, custardy interior, not too soft and never soggy. Here's the secret, semolina flour. Our recipe test found that a couple of tablespoons of semolina lightly thickened the custard helping it to cling to the bread instead of soaking straight in. So you get crisp edges and a creamy center. After testing several different bread options, here's what we suggest. Use either a rustic Italian loaf or hollow bread sliced about an inch thick. The Italian bread will be a little sturdier and the hollow will be a little bit more tender. And if you're looking for the perfect bite, sprinkle a little bit of sugar onto your soaked bread slices just before you fry them in the pan. The sugar will melt with the butter in the pan and lightly caramelize the outside of the bread. That trick will take your French toast to a whole new level.
Speaker 1:
[37:29] With Shipt, it's never just a delivery order. It's shopped same day in the same way you would. Use code PODCAST to get a year of Shipt for only $49. That's half off the regular $99 price at shipt.com/offer. That's shipt.com/offertermsapply. I'm Christopher Kimball, and this is Milk Street Radio. I'm joined now by JM Hirsch to talk about this week's recipe, Baked Kefta with Tahini. JM, how are you?
Speaker 17:
[38:10] I'm doing great.
Speaker 1:
[38:11] So kefta, kofta, I guess, you know, Middle Eastern meatballs or meat patties. One of my favorite versions was in Morocco in that big marketplace they have, the big square at night turns into a food court of sorts under tents. And they just grilled the lamb patties, small, maybe a few inches long, and served it with a spicy oil. And I guess that's one of the simplest preparations. But you were in Jordan and you had, I guess, the other end of the spectrum, something a little bit more interesting.
Speaker 17:
[38:41] As you say, no matter where we go, whether it's Naples, Mexico City, or in this case, Amman, we find some variant of a meatball. You know, wildly different, but still recognizable. And in Amman, I was at restaurant Charizard, which is kind of an alleyway, really, more than a restaurant, where cooking is happening on either side. And they have this Baked Kefta with Tahini that they make. But if you looked at it, you would not think meatball when you see it come out of the kitchen. Basically, they take ground lamb and they season it with onion, garlic, chilies, and baharat, the local seasoning blend, which uses lots of warm spices like cinnamon and so forth. And they take this meat mixture and they flatten it into a bottom of a round cake pan, going right up the sides. And they throw that into the broiler for a little bit, they take it out, and they top it with, I'm sorry, but french fries and tomato wedges. And then they put it back under the broiler for a few minutes, take it out again, and this time they add the secret ingredient, which is a sauce that is used widely in Jordan, a blend of tahini and lemon juice and tangy yogurt. And that goes on top. Now, when you see them do it, I mean, they really slosh it on. They're not bashful about adding the sauce to their kefta. They put it back under the broiler. Under the heat of the broiler, that sauce thickens and reduces and caramelizes, and I gotta say, it's almost like a barbecue sauce. When it comes out of the oven, it is so rich and so thick, and it glazes the meat in many ways, and it was so delicious and rich and balanced. So problem is, that method of cooking didn't translate well to the home cooks. So per usual, I went to a home cook to help us solve this problem, and Taghrid Mutasib offered to show us her version of this recipe, which substituted ground beef for the ground lamb, and it substituted potato wedges for the French fries, and she instead of creating a meat bowl, she actually created meat balls and formed the beef into oblongs, which she arranged in a cake pan with the other ingredients and of course that special sauce, and put it in the oven to bake, and again, took a little bit longer because she wasn't broiling it, but that sauce reduced and caramelized and thickened, and again, it had this barbecue sauce-like quality to it that was so rich and satisfying. It was really fantastic.
Speaker 1:
[41:17] Wait a minute, what about the French fries? Come on, did she put the French fries on it? That's what I want to know.
Speaker 17:
[41:23] I mean, as happy as I am to eat a good French fry, I got to say, I was a little relieved when instead of French fries, she went for basic potatoes. I think it added a little something to the dish.
Speaker 1:
[41:34] This is, as I said, the more complex version, as simple as it is, but Tahini, yogurt, garlic and lemon caramelized in the oven, as you said, a different form of barbecue sauce. Now, Baked Kefta with Tahini, essentially everyone loves a good meatball, but this one is particularly interesting and particularly delicious. Thank you, Jam.
Speaker 17:
[41:55] Thank you. You can get the recipe for Baked Kefta with Tahini at milkstreetradio.com.
Speaker 1:
[42:03] I'm Christopher Kimball, and you're listening to Milk Street Radio. Right now, my co-host, Sara Moulton, and I will be answering a few more of your cooking questions.
Speaker 3:
[42:13] Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 6:
[42:15] My name is Leanne, and I live in Northwestern Ohio, near a small town called Napoleon.
Speaker 3:
[42:22] How can we help you?
Speaker 6:
[42:24] Well, it has to do with cooking in a slow cooker as opposed to my oven. We have a favorite Belgian recipe called beef carbonade, and I prepare it with venison since my husband is a hunter. So I brown the pieces of venison, and I add my husband's brown ale along with other layered ingredients. But my question pertains to simmering in my favorite covered roaster in an oven as opposed to a slow cooker. Is there any end result in cooking in a slow cooker as compared to an oven?
Speaker 3:
[43:07] The thing about a slow cooker is they vary in terms of how they function. I mean, the heat source is at the bottom, and the liquid goes absolutely nowhere in a slow cooker.
Speaker 7:
[43:19] Okay.
Speaker 3:
[43:20] But if you are going to use a slow cooker, don't use a lot of liquid because the liquid never reduces.
Speaker 7:
[43:25] Of course.
Speaker 3:
[43:26] Yeah. So that is really one of the problems. When you cook in the oven, there's heat all around the top, the bottom, the sides. I think it cooks more evenly. I think you can control it much more easily. Just pull it out, take a peek. When you put it in the slow cooker and you just set it forever, and you don't know if it's come up to temperature the way you wanted it to, or if it's boiling too hard. I'm just not a fan. How does your stew come out?
Speaker 6:
[43:54] The venison turns out very, very tender. But as you pointed out, there is still a lot of liquid. So I create a roux and I use that, and it makes a really nice savory thick gravy. It turns out very tender, very moist. It's just a family favorite.
Speaker 3:
[44:12] Okay. I was waiting for a but. It sounds like you've had great success with the slow cooker. Just one thing about what you did when you thickened it. You might get an even more flavorful sauce by removing the venison briefly, throwing it into a pot on top of the stove and reducing it. Because what happened is, when you cook it in the oven, some of that liquid does reduce, and none of it reduces in a slow cooker. So it's not that strong in flavor. That's what I would do. But anyway, I know Chris has a few thoughts.
Speaker 1:
[44:40] I agree about the liquid problem. And I do use a slow cooker because, for example, during hunting season, deer season, I'll leave at 5.36 in the morning and I'll set the slow cooker up and so when I get back, it's very practical. If you do it in the oven, I would do it at 325 for two hours with the top on. I take the top off and cook it another hour to hour and a half and that way you're going to get browning of the meat that's above the liquid and you're going to get a reduction of that liquid. So that, if you're around the house and you can do it that way, that's fine. If it's in a slow cooker, I would add either no additional liquid or almost no additional liquid. You can cook a stew in a Dutch oven and add no liquid and by the time it's cooked, there will be liquid at the bottom of the pot from the onions, from the meat, etc. But the slow cooker is okay. The oven is better. But just get rid of that liquid and don't use much of it.
Speaker 7:
[45:33] Well, you have answered my question.
Speaker 6:
[45:36] I will use my oven more often. That was my question and you have supplied the answer very ably.
Speaker 7:
[45:44] Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:
[45:44] Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:
[45:45] Thank you, Leanne.
Speaker 6:
[45:46] Bye.
Speaker 1:
[45:47] This is Milk Street Radio. If you're stuck in a culinary rut, Sara and I are here to give you a hand. Call us at 855-426-9843, 855-426-9843, or email us at questions at milkstreetradio.com. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 18:
[46:06] My name is Rich. I live in New Hampshire.
Speaker 1:
[46:10] How can we help you?
Speaker 18:
[46:11] Well, I like to bake my own bread, and I like a very heavy bread by lifting it. You know, if it's heavy, then I know I like it. The bread I've been making lately, I love the consistency. It's got all kinds of seeds and stuff in it. I usually use spelt instead of wheat. It doesn't work well for sandwiches and the like. It breaks apart. I'm thinking it needs more gluten to hold it together more.
Speaker 1:
[46:45] Let's talk about your recipe. So are you using any white bread flour or it's all whole grain spelt?
Speaker 18:
[46:52] See, I like a lot of stuff in my bread. So usually I do like five cups of whole grains and another two cups of various grains, you know, quinoa and seeds, sunflower.
Speaker 1:
[47:08] You're making a vegetable loaf. The problem, you hit the nail on the head. You don't have enough gluten. So you have two options. First option is mix a ratio of whole wheat spelt to bread flour, white bread flour, and maybe use 30 to 40 percent whole wheat spelt to 60 or 70 percent bread flour. You're going to sacrifice some of the flavor, but you're going to get a loaf that has enough gluten to hold together. The other thing you can do is add vital wheat gluten, which is essentially a massive concentration of gluten that's made from wheat. Add a couple tablespoons of that to your recipe to see if that helps. My simple solution would be to take three of the five cups and use bread flour and then use two cups of whole wheat gluten. That's the quickest way to solve the problem. Sara?
Speaker 3:
[48:04] Yeah, I would absolutely agree. But let's say even if you were using more bread flour and you added quinoa and all those nuts and seeds to it, it's still going to be crumbly when you slice it. Have you ever worked with the vital wheat gluten before?
Speaker 18:
[48:17] No, I have not.
Speaker 3:
[48:19] It's a great ingredient. As Chris said, it's like a bomb of gluten and you only need about one tablespoon per two cups of flour. If you want to keep it pure, you could do that or what Chris suggested.
Speaker 18:
[48:31] Okay. I think I'll try the vital wheat gluten first because that's what I was looking for, a little glue to dump in to make things stick better. I'll see how that goes first. It's different every time I make it because I just start dumping stuff together.
Speaker 1:
[48:47] Adventures in bread bake. Anyway, give that a shot and let us know.
Speaker 18:
[48:52] Yeah. Thank you very much. Be well, friends.
Speaker 1:
[48:54] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
[48:55] Take care. You too, Rich. Thank you.
Speaker 18:
[48:57] Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:
[48:58] Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling?
Speaker 6:
[49:01] This is Freda.
Speaker 1:
[49:02] How can we help you?
Speaker 7:
[49:03] I bought up Peachtree a couple of years ago and this year had a bumper crop. And I had a really hard time processing, you know, keeping up with all of the peaches. And I was trying to get the skins off using the blanching method that everyone tells you to do. And they just wouldn't come off no matter how long I boiled them. I didn't want to boil them to mush. So I was curious to see if you had suggestions on what I'm doing wrong in terms of blanching peaches.
Speaker 1:
[49:33] Tell me how you blanch them. How long?
Speaker 7:
[49:35] Well, I put a little X in the skin at the bottom. Put them in boiling water. I kept them in for increasingly longer amounts of time because the skins weren't coming off.
Speaker 1:
[49:47] How much time? Like 30 seconds?
Speaker 7:
[49:50] No, no, no. Like five minutes.
Speaker 1:
[49:53] Boiled peaches. Okay.
Speaker 7:
[49:55] Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:
[49:56] Did you have an ice bath too?
Speaker 7:
[49:58] Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:
[49:59] Well, one thing, you shouldn't need more than about 30 seconds. But the ice bath, you've got to have a big bowl with ton of ice and water, because it's the shocking, right, from being hot to being cold, that'll help release the skin. So it's like doing hard boiled eggs, you need a really big ice bath. I used to grow peaches too, and sometimes that doesn't work. And so I simply took a really sharp peeler and just peeled the skin off. But you shouldn't need five minutes. More than 30, 45 seconds is probably plenty.
Speaker 3:
[50:33] Well, also, I was going to say peelers go dull. So you really do need to replace them pretty often. So I agree with Chris, if the other method is not working, and I also agree with 30 to 45 seconds. But there's also something that's made, it's a serrated peeler. That might be what you want to look for.
Speaker 1:
[50:50] That's an excellent point.
Speaker 3:
[50:51] Yeah. Get a new one so it's good and sharp.
Speaker 7:
[50:54] That's a really good suggestion. Can I take in one extra question about the peaches? One of the things that I had tried to make with it was the pâté de tuyx and I could not get it to gel. I used as much pectin as the recipe said and it almost set but didn't. So I kept adding more and more.
Speaker 1:
[51:14] There are two kinds of pectin. One is a low sugar pectin and one comes in a pink box and one comes in the other color, whatever that is. I don't know how much sugar is in this, but if it's a low sugar recipe, you need a low sugar pectin. So you might check that, because it's in all supermarkets, you can get the other one.
Speaker 7:
[51:32] Is there a difference between liquid and non-liquid?
Speaker 1:
[51:36] As far as I know, not, but I think there is a low sugar pectin and you might need that for this recipe.
Speaker 7:
[51:42] Okay. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:
[51:44] Thank you. Okay, Freda.
Speaker 1:
[51:45] Take care.
Speaker 7:
[51:46] Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.
Speaker 1:
[51:47] Bye. This is Milk Street Radio. Now let's hear about Kenji López-Alt's latest kitchen experiment. Kenji, how are you?
Speaker 19:
[52:01] I'm doing good. How are you?
Speaker 1:
[52:03] I'm good. I'm curious to see what you've been doing in your kitchen in the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 19:
[52:08] Well, I thought today we could talk about something we've never ever talked about before, which is eggs.
Speaker 1:
[52:13] Oh, Lord. You and I have been talking about eggs for 10 years.
Speaker 19:
[52:17] I feel like every other conversation is about eggs.
Speaker 1:
[52:19] So what kind of eggs are we talking about here?
Speaker 19:
[52:21] Scrambled eggs. And particularly when you should be adding salt to your scrambled eggs. I don't know if you've seen this video, but there is a very popular video in which Gordon Ramsey is showing you how to make these sort of French style, really, really creamy scrambled eggs. It's a very, very popular video, like millions and millions of views on the internet. In that video, he says not to add salt to the eggs until the very end because he claims it will make the eggs watery or it will make them gray. Yeah. And to me, I was like, you know, I've never really noticed my eggs turning watery or gray when I salt them. So I started doing some research on them. I found other people, including Marco Pierre White, say don't salt your eggs until they're done. MFK Fisher says don't season your eggs until they're almost done. But on the other hand, people like Julia Child, Jacques Pépin, they both tell you to salt your eggs before you start cooking them. So for my most recent New York Times Ask Kenji column, I did a bunch of testing on this. So I took eggs and I salted them at intervals ranging from zero minutes before cooking all the way up to three days before cooking.
Speaker 1:
[53:26] You're being Kenji.
Speaker 19:
[53:27] And the way I normalized it is I used an induction burner that could keep a precise temperature on a pan. And so I used the same pan set at 300 degrees Fahrenheit, use the same amount of oil. I used oil instead of butter just because butter is a more complex ingredient than oil. And I cooked them all for the exact same amount of time. And then I tasted them all side by side. The other thing I did was I drained them in a fine mesh strainer. And what I did was I set that fine mesh strainer over a bowl to see how much sort of free liquid there was. So basically to be able to sort of measure or give a visual representation of how watery the eggs taste. And what I found was that in fact, salting your eggs in advance helps them retain more moisture. So they end up more tender and less watery when you salt them in advance.
Speaker 1:
[54:14] Can I just ask though, but are we talking, I mean, how much extra liquid was there? Yeah, okay. A teaspoon or a teaspoon or?
Speaker 19:
[54:20] So that is a good question. As always it's like, is it worth doing? Do I need to salt my scrambled eggs 3 days in advance? Well, no, you shouldn't salt your scrambled eggs 3 days in advance. It really maxes out at about 15 minutes. And even at 15 minutes versus 0 minutes, as long as you don't overcook your eggs, you're not going to think. It's a very small but noticeable difference when it's side by side. When you're not eating them side by side, you know, whatever. If my general advice would be, you know, what I do is if I'm going to make scrambled eggs, I'll come down to the kitchen, I'll put my eggs in a bowl, I'll beat them with a pinch of salt, and then I'll do everything else I need to do, turn on the coffeemaker, wake up my kids, get the toast in the toaster, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:
[54:56] Wait, wait, hold on a second.
Speaker 19:
[54:57] What's that?
Speaker 1:
[54:58] You wake your kids? You should have breakfast and have a cup of coffee and then wake your kids. Come on.
Speaker 19:
[55:05] Sorry. Okay. I have a cup of coffee. I get my bow tie on.
Speaker 1:
[55:09] Cup of coffee is the cup of coffee. So at the end of the day, salt your eggs ahead of time.
Speaker 19:
[55:14] If you can. If not, they're going to be just fine. You know, the key to good scrambled eggs is don't overcook them.
Speaker 1:
[55:19] Kenji, thank you very much. You resolved another shocking issue in the world of the culinary arts. Salting eggs, thank you.
Speaker 19:
[55:25] Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:
[55:26] Yeah, pleasure. That was Kenji López-Alt. He's a food columnist for The New York Times, also author of The Walk, Recipes and Techniques. He also co-hosts the podcast, The Recipe with Kenji and Deb. That's it for today. You can find all of our episodes at milkstreetradio.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You can learn more about us at 177milkstreet.com. There you can become a member, get access to all of our recipes and also our live stream cooking classes, plus free standard shipping for the Milk Street store and lots more. You can also find us on Facebook at Christopher Kimball's Milk Street, on Instagram at 177MilkStreet. We'll be back next week with more food stories and kitchen questions. Thanks as always for listening.
Speaker 20:
[56:19] Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH. Co-founder Melissa Baldino, executive producer Annie Sinzpaugh, senior editor Melissa Allison, senior producer Sara Clapp, associate producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debbie Paddock, additional editing by Sydney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts, theme music by Tube Up Crew, additional music by George Brindle-Eggloff, Christopher Kimball's Milk Street Radio is distributed by PRX. From PRX.