transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:04] This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey gang, today we're talking about the enormous power and relief and release that comes from shifting your perspective. One way of putting this is the old saw about how the problem isn't the problem, the problem is how you're relating to the problem. So today we're going to talk about that, but we're also going to talk about a whole bunch of other stoic principles, including focusing on what you can control and letting the rest fall by the wayside, which my guest calls, quote, a major turn on. And we'll talk about the concept of, quote, digging it baby, no matter what's happening. My guest is my friend Maria Semple, who's a well-known novelist. She is perhaps best known for her novel, which then turned into a movie called Where'd You Go Bernadette. And now she's got a new novel that's getting a ton of buzz called Go Gentle. I had the opportunity to read it early and it's incredibly good. And it is filled with stoic principles because the protagonist is an expert on stoicism, which I should have said this earlier, but it's the ancient Greco-Roman philosophy, which itself has become incredibly buzzy in recent years. And Maria herself, as you will hear, is a big stoic enthusiast. That's why she injected the theme into this new novel. Although, as you will also hear her discuss, both she and her protagonist have some questions about the limits of stoic philosophy and practice. By way of context, I got to know Maria several years ago when I met her, and what I'm about to say is supremely bougie, I know it, but when I met her, when we were seated near one another at a dinner party at the TED Conference, where I was giving a speech, over the subsequent years, Maria and I have become really good friends. I've watched her go through quite a bit in her personal life, including a divorce and a cross-country move, and then of course all the labor that she put into this new book. So it's really moving and fun for me to watch this book come out and be so well received. And then to get to interview her right here on this show, where as you will hear, she did a great job. You're gonna love this conversation. Before we dive in, just real quick, I want to point out that one great way to improve how you handle the problems in your life and in the world at large is meditation, which is why I would love for you to check out my new meditation app, Ten Percent with Dan Harris. As you may know, I had a meditation app for many years, and then I went through a painful separation from that app, and now I've got this new thing, which I'm really happy about. Many of the same teachers from the old app are on this app, people like Joseph Goldstein, Sebene Selassie, Jeff Warren and more. What's different with this app is not only do we have all the amazing guided meditations, but we're also now leaning into community. We've built in features that allow you to connect with me, with the teachers, with the team and with one another. We also do weekly live events with a guided meditation, and then we take your questions. Head on over to danharris.com to get the app and join the party. The first two weeks are free, and if you can't afford it, just let us know and we will hook you up. Okay, we'll get started with Maria Semple right after this. I don't eat a ton of meat, but when I do, I really want it to be high quality and responsible, sustainable, healthy, environmentally friendly. That's important to me. I imagine it's important to you. And that's what you get when you work with our sponsor today, ButcherBox. ButcherBox delivers over 100 premium protein options straight to your door, including 100% grass fed beef, free range organic chicken, crate free pork and wild caught seafood. It's all responsibly raised and thoughtfully sourced. So you're not guessing about what's on your plate. 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Speaker 2:
[05:50] Thank you, I'm excited to be here, Dan.

Speaker 1:
[05:52] Your book is awesome. Go Gentle, everybody should read it. I was lucky enough to get an early copy because we're friends. And yeah, just let me start by saying congratulations.

Speaker 2:
[06:04] Thank you, thank you. It's exciting for me that it's out in the world now and people are starting to read it, it's very cool.

Speaker 1:
[06:09] Yeah, it's super, I mean, I'll just speak selfishly. Having talked to you throughout, we met each other a couple of years ago, and just being able to watch you do this thing. In the middle of a period of like real personal tumult on your side, yeah, it was very cool to watch it from soup to nuts.

Speaker 2:
[06:27] Oh, thank you. Yeah, to go from that, I'm sure we met when I was despairing that the book wouldn't come together, and probably also giddy that I was writing the greatest thing ever. It's all, you know, you cover every single thing when you're writing a novel, it takes years and you kind of feel all the emotions while you're doing it.

Speaker 1:
[06:44] You had a sign that you put on your computer while you were writing it, and I think it said, Dig It Baby.

Speaker 2:
[06:51] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[06:52] Can you just unpack that?

Speaker 2:
[06:54] Yeah. So I have a sign that says Dig It Baby, and what it does for me is it basically tells me that if I'm not loving what I'm writing, I should just get up and walk away and just wait till I dig it. I'm not going to continue writing unless I fully dig it. The story of that is that many years ago, my former partner and I produced this show together. I knew he was doing a series of monologues, and he'd never done monologues before in his life, and he'd never performed. I had gone to a Buddhist meditation retreat, a week of silence. The only time we could speak was when a guy named Scott Kelman, who was an acting teacher, came in and did with us something he called The Work. I guess they were acting exercises. I'm still unclear about what an acting teacher was doing, a Buddhist meditation silent retreat. But he came, and he really reminded me of Roy Scheider and all that jazz when he was playing Bob Fosse. He was just like a seriously cool cat, this guy. He would just make us go really deep and stand in front of people, and look at them, and tolerate being looked at, and then all the emotions that came up from it. So maybe there was some Buddhist stuff. I really like this guy. Right before our opening night of this show, George, my ex, was nervous about for the first time going up in front of an audience. So I said, I think we should bring in this guy, Scott Kelman. I think that he's going to be able to help you. So Scott came in and watched George do these monologues. And George stared at this spot, like high up on the ceiling, and just read and delivered the monologue, his first one. And then Scott said to George, who are you looking at? And George said, well, I'm just looking above everybody, because I feel like if I look at anyone, I'm going to get really distracted. Like there's going to be friends of mine in the audience, and I don't want to have to look at them because I don't know how to do this. And then Scott said, okay, I want you to do it again. And this time I want you to look people in the eyes, and I want you to dig it baby. And I just really like that, the idea of just like, look people in the eyes and this time dig it baby. And so that's what I have on my desk. The look people in the eyes is kind of important too, because it's about being sincere and wanting to connect and taking a risk in that way. So that's kind of what I like to write by.

Speaker 1:
[09:32] I love that. I didn't actually know the full story, even though you and I had talked about the sign over dinner several times. It so gives it a lot more color hearing the full story. It feels to me like life advice, not only for the creative act, where those of us who do creative work can fall prey, I think to the sunk cost fallacy. It's like, oh, I've been working on this for a while, so I got to finish it even if it's a slog. I've been there. But also for like life, for all of life, you know, just whatever we're doing, let's actually dig it. Let's actually be here for it.

Speaker 2:
[10:10] Absolutely. And just the willingness to commit to things without any other voice in your head, you know, which like the resentment and there's a lot of stoicism in that. Seneca writes a lot about it. And as you know, my book has a lot of stoicism in it, but that's a really big thing that there's a lot of quotes about that that I really like, which is just show up and show up with pure gung ho spirit. That's a modern word. They didn't use gung ho back then. But that's what it is. And I do think it is very simplifying, you know, in a way, you just kind of have to make the decision. I get to do this. That's a thing that I really like instead of I have to do this, you shifted to I get to do this. And that's the kind of energy I feel like one should bring to everything.

Speaker 1:
[10:55] Do you never fall back into a place that I, and I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I feel like too often, I'm trudging through my to do list. And so I'm not digging it, I'm just doing it. Did that ever happen to you? And if so, how do you pull yourself out of trudging to digging?

Speaker 2:
[11:14] Well, to do list is not a good example because I really love getting shit done. I feel like in a way, that's really what writing a novel is for me. It's just this massive to do list. So I really bring fiendish joyful energy to tasks and having to do anything. So to do list is not the best thing. I think it might be more working out or something for me. So anything that's just like planning, making decisions, planning, coming up with some kind of scheme I find very creative actually, even a to do list of, oh, how am I going to get that done? Who do I call first? Oh, no, maybe I should call the other person first before this. That's like very happy for me to be doing all that. And so that's not really hard. But I'd say when I'm doing something I don't really like to do, I really try to think of it as character building. I'm going to go through this and I'm going to be better on the other side and I will be stronger on the other side and kind of grittier maybe on the other side. So that brings joy to it, I think.

Speaker 1:
[12:22] So what I'm hearing throughout this very young conversation that we're just starting, is bringing cognitive reframes to stuff. Does that land for you?

Speaker 2:
[12:33] Oh, very much so. And in fact, I'm sure talk about the stoicism that I'm very into. But there was a quote that I was reading that it said that stoics try to bring the most useful perspective to a situation. And I really like that because I feel like, yes, it's reframing. I feel like everything you can reframe. And I really like the word useful because it's so simple. And it's like, oh yeah, there's like a useful way of looking at something and there's not. Epictetus says there's two handles by which you can hold a vase, I think is what he's referring to, hold something and hold it by the right handle. And so I do think that if that reframing is useful, it makes your existence better. And I think that what I really like about it is that it really, to me, activates my imagination. You know, if something like bad has happened, quote unquote, or so that, you know, I don't get what I want, or there's a frustrating person. I actually think it's really fun to just get your imagination like fired up and just think like, oh, what's another way of looking at this? Again, then I'm into my like to-do list energy and I'm then excited if I'm like psyched about this situation, like, oh, there's a way that I can reframe this to make it positive.

Speaker 1:
[13:54] It's amazing the simple power of changing your perspective to alleviate dread, anxiety, anger, whatever.

Speaker 2:
[14:05] Yeah, it really is. It's kind of crazy that it's so available any given time, like nothing's keeping you from doing it. You're just 100% in control of it. It's just readily there for the taking should you choose.

Speaker 1:
[14:19] I think the biggest obstacle is remembering. I think the biggest problem in all of whatever you want to call it, personal growth, self-improvement, spiritual development, whatever, the biggest problem is remembering. You can listen to Maria, hold forth on stoicism, which she's about to do, and then you go through the rest of your day and you're pulled into the tides of forgetting and a ripe opportunity comes up for reframing. You just forget to do it.

Speaker 2:
[14:45] Completely. I think that that's why practice is really important. I think meditation is a practice and I have a stoic practice. I think that without a practice, it's just something that makes you all psyched to change your life. I used to always say, I heard something that changed my life and now I've forgotten it. It's like, and I think that's what you go through if you don't just go through almost like the drudgery of practice and that's what it's for. You can internalize it and that this stuff starts to become second nature or the first, maybe not the first response because sometimes that's just visceral of just dread or shame or panic or whatever it is. But maybe very quickly afterwards, you can go to the reframing thing and it almost feels natural.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] I love what you're saying and yes, I've been humbled so often when taking the Buddhist or stoic or psychologically wise approach is the eighth reflex on my part after a million other less constructive roots, but at least it's in there.

Speaker 2:
[15:49] Yeah, and the damage is done, right? And now it's like, oh Jesus, now all these apology emails after writing all of this shit. So I almost think on just a basic level, that's why you should do it. It just saves you a lot of time. I have a phrase that I like, that I say, the low road always dogs you. It just makes life a lot easier not to have taken the low road, because it will stay with you.

Speaker 1:
[16:13] Yeah. The lower road can be really fun for a few delicious nanoseconds.

Speaker 2:
[16:18] The best.

Speaker 1:
[16:20] Let's talk about Stoicism. So the protagonist in your new novel, which again is called Go Gentle and is phenomenal, is an expert in Stoicism and has written books about it and is a teacher of it. And this is based, as I understand it, in your own deep personal interest in Stoicism. So I'd be interested in hearing your story. How did you get interested in Stoicism and what is it for those of us who are uninitiated?

Speaker 2:
[16:46] Okay. So I got into Stoicism maybe 12 years ago or so. And I think I just read about it in the New York Times and I read a book about it. William Irvine wrote a book called, I don't know, We Can Look It Up in the Show Notes or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[17:03] He's been on this show, so I'll put the episode, I'll put a link to that episode.

Speaker 2:
[17:07] Okay. The Guide to the Good Life, I think that's his, William Irvine. It's just this really great intro to Stoicism. And I read it and was really turned on. What turned me on initially was this perspective thing. But the basis of it, as I understand it, is that there's things that you can control. There's things that you can't control. Your job is to only focus on what you can control, and that's virtue. And everything else you just cheerfully throw over to fate. And so that sounds suspiciously like the AA Serenity Prayer, you know, and a lot of other kind of systems. And it was formulated 300 BC, you know, by the Greeks. And it's kind of crazy that it's so old and it really is only focus on what you can control. Cognitive behavioral therapy is very much rooted in Stoicism. And so I think for anybody in any program, the first time you hear something like that, or let them write them, right? You know, just like let it, like whatever is going on, whatever people, whatever is going to happen in the outside world, it's not your business. Just concern yourself with yourself. It's really energizing and it's a super turn on, you know? And again, it's one of those things where you're like, yeah, my life is going to be different. I'm now going to live this really happy, superior life. And so I started reading the Stoics themselves, Seneca, Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius. And I just kind of invented this program for myself because I didn't know anyone who was a Stoic or anyone who was into it. And so I just started every day sitting down and reading Stoicism and figuring out my philosophy of life and writing it down and doing these journal exercises that I kind of created for myself. And that's how I start every day. And it's really fun. It's actually very hard to tear myself away from it. And then I read some of this, I don't know, I just like putter around with my Stoicism and get very happy and focused and it's like to me, it really helps. One of the things I do, it's like clarify your purpose. That's a big thing in Stoicism. What am I going to do that day? What is today about? What virtue and the word virtue is kind of problematic because it sounds churchy or whatever, but it's the four virtues. I think they're Plato is wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. So it's not judgy, it's just about your own character. So then I got really into it and I'm still into it. It's kept alive in me for all these years.

Speaker 1:
[19:45] So the turn on here, I just want to dig into this is there's something, if I'm hearing you correctly, really invigorating and empowering about focusing on what you can control and letting everything else fall to the wayside.

Speaker 2:
[20:04] Exactly. The more you study it and learn about it, the more wisdom you see in it, the more you really see that there's actually nothing outside of yourself you can control when you really start looking at it that way. So it really positively reinforces things. Then there's the reframing that's fun, that I think is good and easy. Then pretty soon, you've gone through this with your meditation practice is you'll be in a situation and you'll just notice that you have just experienced that in a very, not very, maybe even a slightly different way than you might have a year before where it just doesn't stress you out or cause you anxiety. And you're like, oh, wow, I think something must have worked along the way. I don't quite know how, but there's been a shift and I have a much more peaceful existence.

Speaker 1:
[21:00] Coming up, Maria talks about her own daily stoic routine, what stoicism actually is and what to do when meditation gives you anxiety. This time of year always makes me rethink what's in my closet. Trying to keep fewer things but better ones, pieces that are well made and easy to wear all the time. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful, the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality everyday essentials using premium materials like 100% European linen and their insanely soft flow knit active wear fabric. Their men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable and comfortable. Basically the perfect layer for spring. The pants strike the right balance between laid back and refined so you look put together without trying too hard. I've got one pair of pants from Quince that I wear just like all the time. These are my go to pants, black pants. I guess you would call them khakis or chinos. I don't know, but they look really good. Or at least I think they look really good on me. I don't know. How do I know? But I think they look really good and they're really, really comfortable. I've got a bunch of stuff from Quince. Socks, underwear, t-shirts. The best part is that their prices are 50 to 60% less than similar brands. How? Quince works directly with ethical factories. It cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Everything is designed to last and make getting dressed easy. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/happier for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com/happier for free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com/happier. It's Way Day at Wayfair from April 25th through the 27th. You can score the best deals in home, like up to 80% off with free shipping on everything. Wayfair makes it easy to find exactly what fits your style and your needs, from furniture and decor to home improvement and outdoor essentials. And it's all on sale during Way Day. Upgrade your space with quality pieces that work within your budget. And the best part, everything ships fast and free during Way Day. Plus you can shop with Wayfair Verified, aka your shortcut to the good stuff, their team of product specialists, vets, everything by hand, using a 10-point quality inspection, so you know you're getting a quality piece, no matter your budget. My wife has a very specific aesthetic. She likes clean, sleek stuff. And through Wayfair, she got these very nice, translucent bookshelves that she has put all over her office. They look beautiful. And I love the stuff from Wayfair. And I've looked many times at their website for outdoor stuff, indoor stuff. They've got a huge selection of really high quality stuff. And a website that, in my experience, is very easy to shop and order and receive your items in a seamless and efficient manner. Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home. We're talking up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. Head to wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Tell me about this morning practice that you do. Can you just really walk us through? Because it sounds like you've invented it. Pete, there isn't some workbook people can buy. So can you just give us the steps in case we want to replicate it for ourselves?

Speaker 2:
[24:40] Yes. Shoot, I wish I brought my stoic book with me. I almost did. It's this little book that's now about 60 pages long that I've rewritten about 15 or 20 times, that I keep writing and improving and then going back to Kinko's, and having them print up a new one and put a little coil binder on it, and then do it when it gets too marked up, I make a new one. And so I start out by writing down my philosophy of life, which is my goal for today is to bring my actions, desires, and thoughts into line with my philosophy of life. My philosophy of life is virtue equals freedom. Virtue is the only good. Its pursuit is the only guarantee of abiding good cheer, secure joy, and a tranquil mind. So that took like 10 years for me to write. Okay. So like that's my philosophy of life. And so I write that down every day to remind myself. And then I go to the four virtues, and I have adjectives listed next to the virtues. And if it's like wisdom, I'll go to one of my adjectives next to wisdom, you know, sound judgment or something. Because wisdom really is about just separating what you can control from what you can control. And then justice is about, there's a lot of kind of meta in that friendliness, benevolence. It's not about like being a justice warrior. It's about just like being a good human being to others. Then there's courage, which is like about work. And it's like love of work. There's a lot about like not falling in with the mob, you know, about like moral courage, about endurance. And then under temperance, it's about kind of discipline, patience, speaking less, speaking kindly. I kind of pick little subcategories of virtues that I need to work on that day. And then I journal all this out. I journal it out and then it's like clarify my purpose. I figure out what my purpose is that day. And then there's like a list of prompts. I think today I did, I get to do this. That's what I did. I was like, I get to go and talk about my book with Dan. Like this is really amazing that I get to do this. You know, like I love Dan, like there's a podcast studio down the street in the Publisher's House that's all set up. You know, that's like all this good stuff is happening. And it's about not like, oh, fuck, I got to go do this thing with Dan. And I was like, you know, it's like, because it could, I love you, but you know what I'm saying? We all can just slide into that. So it's basically just like reframing it. So it's really positive. And then I'll read the Stoics and then I read other philosophy. I'm reading some Rousseau now. I'm trying to, I'm not trying to, but I enjoy branching out a bit. And then I'm like ready to write.

Speaker 1:
[27:39] This is so interesting. I just want to, for anybody who wants to do a bootleg version of this for themselves, it sounds like, roughly speaking, the exercise begins by restating what your life philosophy is. And then the next click deeper is how does that apply to what you're going to do today?

Speaker 2:
[28:01] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[28:02] And then you do some reading, what might be in a cheesily called inspirational reading of Stoic philosophers, et cetera, et cetera. And then it culminates in some sort of journal prompt around, how am I going to, back to today, how am I going to apply one aspect of this very rich philosophical tradition to what's on my docket for today? Did I roughly restate that correctly?

Speaker 2:
[28:28] Yeah, no, that's exactly it. And then you're like, let's go, let's go do this thing. You know, here's the important thing, is that I've set it up so that every single thing that I set out to do is 100% of my control. For instance, when I was coming down here, it wasn't like what I wanted to do today. It wasn't like I want Dan to love me. I want to sell a million books on the podcast. I want to become like an influencer. It was like, I want to be on time. I don't want to interrupt. I feel like I have, so I'm going to go into a shame spiral. But try not to interrupt, try not to swear. And those were like the only three things I really intended to do today, was to write where those three things. And I'm like maybe B plus or something, but it was like I wanted to be professional, like love of work. I wanted to show up with my full self. And so that's what's really fun about it. It's not like you set out for the day to like write a bestselling novel. It's because you can't control that. You set out for the day to do like a good day of work and to focus and to concentrate and not to just like waste your time on the internet and take naps and things like that. That's what's kind of so fun about it. And that it's like you only desire what's in your control. That's like a really big thing. And that's like actually quite radical is to shift. And that's why my top half of my philosophy of life is it's like to line up my desires, thoughts and actions. Those are the three disciplines, I think, of Stoicism. It's thoughts, desire and action. But desire is really the big one, which would be a very good segue to my book and my character. But I feel like you want to keep talking about Stoicism so we can put a pin in the segue.

Speaker 1:
[30:20] No, no, no, I want to follow your lead here.

Speaker 2:
[30:22] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[30:22] Because actually I think it doesn't take us far afield from Stoicism, because your protagonist starts the book in Act 1 in this state of feeling like she's got it all figured out, and in many ways she does.

Speaker 2:
[30:36] Right. I just interrupted, there we go. So it's like now I just, okay. But that's, see you're a friend, that's the problem is I feel like I didn't know you. Friends apparently I steamroll over and I don't even care. That's like what it is to be a friend of mine. But so she basically has figured out that the key to life is to desire only what she has. Her name is Adora Hazzard. She's a recently divorced woman who's moved to New York with her teenage daughter, very similar to my story, lives on the Upper West Side. And she has kind of figured out that if you desire what you have, then you're happy. And so she's set up this really fantastic life for herself. She's single. She assumes that she'll never find love because she's kind of later in life. So she doesn't desire love. She desires the company of her friends. And she lives on the seventh floor of an apartment building. And a lot of other single women live in the other apartments and they call themselves the coven. It's like the best, smartest people, her favorite people in the world. And they kind of share Netflix passwords and do things. And the ideas when they get old, they'll all just like take care of each other. And she's the moral tutor to a very wealthy, eccentric family who lives on Fifth Avenue, and particularly to their twin boys. And so after they go to their private school and they're wearing their uniforms, they come back with all their really terrible, like status-obsessed values. She has to sit there and kind of talk them through it and try to like do moral training for them. And so she's quite, you know, pleased with herself, I should say, which is kind of one of the digs against philosophers. You know, it's like the arrogance of the philosopher. It's like the Christians, that's how they, when Christianity came along, they would talk about how, you know, philosophers who were kind of running rampant until Christianity believed that reason could solve everything. You know, you didn't need faith. So they got, I guess, a bad rap because they didn't believe in faith. They just thought, no, I have everything I need to solve all the problems. So there was kind of an arrogance to it. Even though Adora is not particularly arrogant, I did just kind of write it just with a little flavor of being pleased with herself. So then what happens is early on, she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet, a man at the ballet, and he pulls her into this kind of international mystery. And Adora kind of realizes that maybe desire, that she hasn't snuffed it out as well as she thought she did. That in fact, there is something like a flame that is burning inside of her. And this guy awakes it, and then this whole plot awakes it. And then we go back and learn about what happened to her and why she turned to stoicism, and why character became very important to her, and the stories she'd been telling herself. And so my books are crazy. It's a pretty crazy plot, but it's very philosophy heavy, which is this aspect of exactly how this book is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[33:42] Is it in the end something of a repudiation of stoicism then?

Speaker 2:
[33:47] You know, it's kind of interesting is that I think that one of the things that's to me interesting is that stoicism doesn't love chaos. And I kind of like chaos, you know, like you say, Oh, I love the low road. I, you don't really love the low road. But I mean, it's like kind of asking you not to be human, to not want to like lust or just like give into your appetites or do the wrong thing and feel good sending 100 angry texts to becoming completely unhinged in the moment. Like that is being human, you know? And so I feel like there's certainly a denial of that in stoicism, of stoic sage. And so, and I think love is, especially in the early stages, as I was writing about in my book, it's just by definition chaotic and you're unhinged and you're desiring what you don't have and you'll do anything to get it and to keep it and all of that kind of good, great shit that love is. And so I think at the end, she kind of is still a stoic and, but maybe has modified it a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[34:53] Where are you with stoicism?

Speaker 2:
[34:56] I love stoicism, but I will say I'm also kind of now getting into Nietzsche who really hated the stoics. He has his own set of problems, but there's something about just the creative will that I think is just really fascinating. But I will always, I don't know that I will ever not do my stoic practice because it really does make me feel good. It's just now a practice. Do you meditate like every morning, Dan? Do you start out the day?

Speaker 1:
[35:23] It really depends on the day.

Speaker 2:
[35:25] Okay. So I feel like I certainly don't feel this when I meditate, which is why I rarely meditate, but I don't feel good when I meditate. I feel bad when I meditate, I will say. Sorry, I know this is a meditation podcast. We're supposed to be. But I mean, I just judge myself too much, and it's like when I get anxious, I have all this anxiety. I think stoicism just at least makes me feel good while I'm doing it. I'm not just sweating with shame while I'm doing it. Sorry, is this not a good thing to say on this podcast?

Speaker 1:
[35:58] No, there's no such thing of bad thing to say on this show. We talk about meditation and Buddhism a lot, but it's really about we've done tons on stoicism. We do sleep and it's all aspects of life. Maybe this is a little bit cute what I'm going to say. I do want to get back to stoicism and your take on it and what you said about Nietzsche, which I need to learn more about because I don't fully understand. But just to respond to what you said about meditation, which is very common, the experience you're describing. The cute part is I do want to reframe it if I can for you, that maybe this will be helpful. This is not designed to browbeat you into meditating. It's just to help change the way you and some others think about it. The point of meditation is not to feel any kind of way. The point is to be cool with whatever you're feeling. And that leads to a kind of meta equanimity, where you realize that whatever comes up externally or internally, you can handle it because you've sat with it, sat with all the ugliness of your mind and survived. One of my favorite little aphorisms, it's a coinage of Joseph Goldstein, who I know you're familiar with, my favorite meditation teacher. And he often tells people, it's okay, which does not mean everything's okay, it just means it's okay to feel whatever you're feeling right now. And that creates a kind of equanimity that allows you to navigate all life's ups and downs with more skill. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:
[37:37] No, it does. And then you bring that into everything. Then there's just kind of a general benevolence that then you will greet the day and other people with, right? Once you kind of give it to yourself. I can really see that. I have the same issue you have, which is anxiety. Is I feel like when I sit to meditate, my heart races. It feels like it wouldn't be racing if I weren't meditating. So why am I putting myself in this situation? You know, maybe you have an answer for that.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] I do a two-part answer, two-part answer. One is you can think about it like first, well, before I give you the two-part answer, I want to signal again.

Speaker 2:
[38:19] I know, I know, you've never, you've never been the seller, the peddler, I know.

Speaker 1:
[38:24] Thank you. Two-part answer. One is you can think of it as a kind of exposure therapy. The anxiety is a prominent and massively salient feature of your mind and my mind. And whether we meditate or not, it's going to be there. And so meditation is a way to kind of learn to work with this gnarly, inconvenient psychological feature or bug more skillfully. So there's one answer. The second answer is there are types of meditation that I think go right at anxiety. In particular, you use this word before meta, not META like the name of the company that owns Instagram, but METTA, which is a kind of benevolence or friendliness. And that style of meditation where you systematically envision certain people, send them good vibes, including yourself, which can be very cheesy, as you know. It was designed by the Buddha, it is said, as an antidote to fear. And it makes sense. Love is kind of the opposite of fear. And so if you can just generate that skill of warmth and passion, it pulls you out of spirals of fear and anxiety. So that's my two part answer.

Speaker 2:
[39:34] Okay. So I love the META practice. Okay. It's like a drug. I just feel like a runner's high after I do it. So here's my question. If like my practice was to sit down in the morning and listen, do you have it on your app? I'm imagining a META practice. Okay. So let's say go to your app and I do META every morning. That feels like cheating for me as meditation. Like I have this idea that I need to sit there and empty my thoughts. And if something goes by, watch it like a cloud or whatever. And then, but could I just every morning do a META practice? Like if you guide me or another teacher, I'd like literally listen to a tape, but I'm not alone quietly with my thoughts.

Speaker 1:
[40:17] Yes, a million percent. You could do exactly what you're describing. And just to say on the clearing your mind thing, that's impossible and that's a pernicious misconception that people carry into their meditation practice that makes it miserable because they're trying to do an impossible thing. So there's no cheating. Another Josephism is whatever works, do what works. If doing no meditation is what works for you, I want you to do no meditation. If doing some meditation of a specific variety is what works for you, then do that.

Speaker 2:
[40:46] Okay. God, I'm actually going to do this. I'm going to do a 10-day meta practice because I love the meta practice, like I say, so I go into it without dread. I'd be like, oh yeah, I get to sit down and send good wishes to the stranger, which I love doing. Okay, and I'll report back.

Speaker 1:
[41:11] Coming up, Maria talks about the limits of Stoicism, the danger of baited bounties. I'll let her explain what that is. How to get shit done with non-attachment, using fantasy as a coping mechanism, and much more.

Speaker 3:
[41:30] This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.

Speaker 1:
[41:52] We're in tax season now, as many of you know, and this is one of the few times of year where many of us get a full look at our financial picture, our earnings, our spending, our savings. But I have found, as somebody who worries about finances a lot, for a lot of good reasons from my parents and other ancestors who've passed that anxiety down to me, I have found that having the full picture financially, more often, more frequently than just once a year, is a great way to reduce my anxiety, which brings me to one of our sponsors today, Monarch. Monarch helps you see where your money is going and where your tax refund will have the biggest impact because you want to make progress with your money, not just look back and wonder where it all went. You can feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with code HAPPIER. I have looked at their website, I have played with it, it is very elegant and like I said, having everything in one place is just a great way to cut out all of the anxiety that comes when you're in that place of kind of vague, measmatic dread about what's going on. They've also got this AI Assistant, 24-7 access to a financial coach accessible from anywhere in Monarch. From questions about trends in your spending to how to pay off debt, this AI Assistant has the answers. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use code HAPPIER at monarch.com for half off your first year, that's 50% off at monarch.com code HAPPIER. This kind of brings us back to your character and your story and also your personal story, because we were talking before we went down this little rabbit hole about the limits of stoicism. And I'm wondering if stoicism's reputation, and I'm not an expert in it, stoicism's reputation as kind of clinical and reasonable is missing the warm and gooey piece that is the inevitable result, I believe, of loving kindness practice.

Speaker 2:
[44:04] Right. I mean, there's a lot to be said here and you can pull quotes. And like I say, justice is really about friendliness and being compassionate and the difficult people that you give love to and all of that. But I don't really think that's what it's about. Like I think if you really wanted to defend stoicism, that you could say, oh no, it's in there, it's all in there. It is pretty cold. It is pretty purely rational. And I think it is rational to love people and to be kind to people and to embrace difficult people. But in stoicism, it's like rooted in rationality. They say it's part of being human, so maybe that gets a little closer, that that's what being a human is and we have to get along with people and what is it? What's good for the hive is what's good for the bee or what's good for, I don't know, what bee is good for the hive or whatever it is. Like we all have to work together in a system. But no, it's not. And I'm not an expert. I mean, I spend a lot of time on it, but I certainly don't hold myself out an expert. We should get Ryan Holiday on the phone because he would have a good answer for this. But I think that the just about being purely loving, I'm not seeing that in the text of Stoicism, just like running around joyfully and giving love.

Speaker 1:
[45:31] Yeah, just to say about Ryan Holiday, he's been on the show several times. I'll put a link to my interview in the show notes. I'll put a link to my interviews with Ryan. And I'm sure he would have a lot to say on this subject, but getting back to you and your main character, Adora, it seems like while you and Adora both continue to love and practice stoicism, there is this addition of a little bit more messiness and warmth and wild love that you're innovating on top of it.

Speaker 2:
[46:06] Yes, and just allowing that. And you know, I'll tell you something that I was writing, it was kind of one of the sparks for writing the book, or there's this section in the middle of the book that's of going into Adora's past. And one of the things that I really love about Stoicism, or what I wanted to write about, and particularly as it pertained to me, is that I realized as I was studying Stoicism, that I'd never thought about my personal character, which was really horrifying to me, that I was raised Catholic, but I feel like they didn't talk about character, they just talked about like miracles that Jesus did. If you didn't believe it, you'd have to like say more Hail Marys. It was not a good priest I went to, apparently. I didn't learn about just being in control of your character and always doing the right thing and having moral courage and separating that out from kind of status seeking and what society is telling you will make you happy. You know, all the painted bounties as if we've called them before of just success and reputation and money and all that stuff. I realized that as I started getting into stoicism that I was, I just kind of internalized all this garbage without really thinking about it. And so that's really what I wanted to write about was kind of character that Adora kind of felt like she had bad character because she wanted kind of the wrong thing. She was like I was. I conveniently made her a former TV writer in Hollywood as I was. And she was younger when she did it as was I. She was chasing all these things that society tells you are going to make you happy. And so I think one of my real turn ons with stoicism was just kind of separating out all of that stuff, questioning that. The stoics go really hard at that, does not make you happy. That is like the path of suffering to pursue any of that. Even if you get it, it's going to make you miserable. And so that's just something I hadn't heard. That's like really fresh and new. If you're just sitting around mindlessly munching down, just the messages of society, it's like, oh wow, there's another way. And I don't have to be a toxic person carrying this stuff around with me. And so that's kind of adores journey as well, you see. And that was really fun for me to write about.

Speaker 1:
[48:43] What was the term you used? Bainted bounties?

Speaker 2:
[48:46] I used that. You don't remember at dinner once a few months ago, and you really liked it. So I was giving you another shot at it, Dan.

Speaker 1:
[48:53] That's so embarrassing. My memory is like Swiss cheese. But so-

Speaker 2:
[48:58] No, it doesn't matter. It was so minor. No, no. It's what Seneca calls things that get dangled in front of you. Stoics called them externals, that anything that's outside of your control, and often you desire them. The baited bounties are basically like riches or something that you think like, oh, it's bountiful, but it's like baited with treachery or with negativity. And you think you're going for something that's gonna make you happy, but it's actually something that you snap at.

Speaker 1:
[49:28] So that, I probably said this at dinner and don't remember that either, but-

Speaker 2:
[49:32] Right, that's okay.

Speaker 1:
[49:33] The Buddha talked about the terrible bait of the world.

Speaker 2:
[49:37] Oh, okay, that's what it is, the baited bounty, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[49:41] It's all the same stuff. He also said, what the world calls happiness, I call suffering and what the world calls suffering, I call happiness. And so it's all about the downside of desire. He's not anti-pleasure, but he describes it, and this is quite a simile here, as being like licking honey from the edge of a razor.

Speaker 2:
[50:03] Ooh, okay, Ouch, okay.

Speaker 1:
[50:04] So there's, yeah, we need to eat and reproduce and lots of, he's not saying we need a completely monkish, although he was a monk, life. It's that if that's where you're placing all of your hope for happiness and fulfillment, it is unlikely to provide.

Speaker 2:
[50:21] Right. And that's what this is. The Stoics have one of my favorite terms just because it's so clunky and it's so like such a bad translation, but I don't know how else to do it. So I think it's Seneca mainly who says that you can want money and pleasure and reputation, but that if you get it, you have to get it without attachment. You know what I'm saying? That you can, like as long as you're not attached to it, you can have it, which was convenient for him because he was like the richest man in the empire. So we had to like come up with a workaround, right? About like, I'm sitting here in my robes with all of my enslaved people around me. So how do I circle that square? He puts externals, which again, is anything that's not your character, into two categories. And he calls externals indifference, I-N-D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T-S, right? Indifference. They are like an indifference. And he says that there are preferred indifference, which is like comfort and pleasure and money. And then there's dis-preferred indifference. And I just think that's a really funny term is dis-preferred indifference. So when something really bad happens, I'm like, that was a dis-preferred indifference. That these things that happen, you can, you still can want good things to happen to you. You know what I mean? And I think that that does allow for humanity because we are human. I want my book to do well. And I don't think that that makes me like a shallow bad person, that I want people to read my book. I want it to get out in the world. If my whole sense of tranquility doesn't hinge on that, then that's okay.

Speaker 1:
[52:00] It is, to go back to the edge of the razor, it's a very narrow path that I hear you describing, which is you don't want to deny your humanity. You're a person who has spent several years working to create this beautiful book. So you want it to do well. You can't help that you want it to do well. And you're doing these morning rituals that help you sanely tune into the fact that if you want things that are beyond your control, that is a reliable wellspring of unhappiness.

Speaker 2:
[52:35] Exactly. And so during the day, if I'm writing, I want to focus, I want to just try to do the best work I can. And then at the end of the day, I'm happy. And I guess that it is like a matter of faith or not happy, but it's like I've done what I set out to do. So I don't have this whole extra thing of like being miserable from not achieving that. And then, you know, you put enough of them together. And then you've got a product, I guess. That's kind of the faith that you have to do, that it's not just about wanting the success of it. I want to finish a book. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not pretending that I don't want to finish a book. I am not just like totally floating in non-attachment. I mean, I always find, I'm sure I've talked to you about this, is how do you get shit done with non-attachment, right? How do you get through the day? And we both are accomplished people and we obviously value finishing books, right? And having like crazy projects that we see to fruition. And that takes a lot of self-will, right? It takes a lot of determination and desire and a lot of fueled by fantasy, in my case. And that's all like danger zone, danger zone. You do need that.

Speaker 1:
[53:50] Now, how do you balance that?

Speaker 2:
[53:53] I don't know. I guess I go back to my practice, but I really believe that fantasy kind of kept me alive when I was a kid. I was a really lonely kind of unhappy kid and unpopular. And I was fat and the bullies would beat me up and I would just really prefer my own company. And I would just create these really elaborate fantasy scenarios, usually involving celebrities being in love with me. But it was these very happy worlds that were just highly determined. And I would just have to be at school or something, or I would be in my fantasy world in the middle of literally dialogue. And then it would be like, hold that thought, I have to go to class and come back and pick up right where I left off. And I used to love being alone. And I grew up in Aspen, Colorado, and I would always like to be the single on the chairlift. I always hated it when I'd be in the chairlift line. I always kind of pretend I was with somebody and just get on the chairlift by myself because it was just so happy for me to sit on this chairlift by myself. I would kind of hope the chairlift would stop. So I could just sit there and just live very intensely in this fantasy world. And so I think that's what made me a novelist. It made me able to kind of sustain my attention over a long time and made me create scenarios that were extremely pleasurable to me. And I think that that was a value that I bring to my books that I write. I try to write really nice places for people to go. Even though it's filled with ideas and suffering in some ways. Generally, I really want to offer someone this very kind of over determined happy world that they can live in for a while. So I'm not going to renounce fantasy, that kind of fantasy life. I think it's good.

Speaker 1:
[55:54] Well, to my ear, what you've done, this beautiful thing, I think the term for this is sublimation, I think maybe like of taking this difficult aspect of your childhood, and then you had this survival mechanism of the fantasy, and now you turned it into art that is a service to the world.

Speaker 2:
[56:14] Oh, well, thank you. Yes. I mean, that's a nice way of looking at it. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[56:19] One last thing to say as we wind down here about this balance of trying to do big and meaningful and important and beautiful things in the world without being overly attached. One of the biggest sources of wisdom in my life is the CEO of our little company. Her name is Tony. We were in a meeting recently about my next book and planning a bunch of stuff, and I think she could sense that I was getting revved up and crazy. She said, just keep in mind that good enough is pretty amazing. I was like, I want to get that tattooed on my forehead. Good enough is pretty amazing. If this project is just fine, is good enough, it doesn't have to put a dent in the universe. It's going to be pretty amazing for the people who read it, for my company, for me, for my family. And that's sanity inducing for me.

Speaker 2:
[57:15] Very much so. Yeah, I totally agree. And that something recently that's similar that I think you can definitely relate to, because I know you've been working on your book for a while and I haven't written a book for 10 years. This is my first book in 10 years. So I'd taken a lot of attempts, abandoned novels, tried this one and it didn't work out and abandoned it, tried other things. A friend of mine recently is having a book come out at the same time mine is. At lunch said to me, what do you want from this book? We were both like really pre-pub and she's like, what do you want from this book? I thought about it and I thought, I want to have written this book. Now it's so I'm really, that's like I'm so happy I wrote the book, that everything else is gravy and right. I mean, don't you feel so proud Dan that you're going to have written this fucking book finally?

Speaker 1:
[58:06] Yes, I need to do a better job of occupying that space because it's very easy for me to get into the realm of not being indifferent and trying to control things that I can't control.

Speaker 2:
[58:20] But I don't know, I think by working hard and doing your best work, that does really set you up for being able to let go a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[58:28] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[58:28] You know, it's the only way to do it.

Speaker 1:
[58:30] Yes. The Buddhists call it non-attachment to results, that you can work incredibly hard on a book or your child as both of us are parents or anything, any project. You can work really hard on it. That's what you can control. But then you release it into an entropic universe and you have to do your best to be non-attached.

Speaker 2:
[58:50] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Speaker 1:
[58:53] Before I let you go, can you just remind everybody of the name of the book and then also your past books, just for people who want to take a deeper dive?

Speaker 2:
[59:02] Oh, thank you. This book is called Go Gentle. It's called, it's a novel. The other books that I've written, the one that people would know more than the others is called, Where'd You Go Bernadette? I think that was your gateway book, Dan, into my universe. I wrote a book called Today Will Be Different and one called, This One Is Mine. Go Gentle is my fourth book. I feel very fortunate to be able to be talking about it. So thank you.

Speaker 1:
[59:32] Where'd You Go Bernadette was my gateway, but I had met you before that. I met you and I didn't know anything really, and I just liked you. Then I was at a book sale at my kid's school and saw that, Where'd You Go Bernadette was available. So I bought it, read it, and loved it, and then we stayed being friends.

Speaker 2:
[59:51] Exactly. That was a really awesome text that I still remember getting from you. That was like a year later. Like, hey, by the way, I read that book. I was so happy. That was very nice of you. Thank you for texting me.

Speaker 1:
[60:03] Yeah. I sent a similar text after I read Go Gentle, which in my opinion is even better. Where'd You Go Bernadette was amazing. This is even better. So you just keep getting better.

Speaker 2:
[60:15] Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[60:17] All right. Maria, thanks again for coming on.

Speaker 2:
[60:20] Thank you, Dan. This was fun.

Speaker 1:
[60:27] Thanks again to Maria Semple. Don't forget to check out her book, Go Gentle. Also, don't forget to check out my meditation app if you're into that kind of thing. danharris.com is the place to get it. There's a 14 day free trial if you want to try before you buy. And if you can't afford it, just let us know and we'll hook you up. Finally, thank you very much to everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer, Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Cashmere is our executive producer, and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

Speaker 3:
[61:17] This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law, not available in all states.