transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] Prayer doesn't have to be complicated to be effective. As we equip you to fight for your family on this season of Therapy and Theology, we especially want to help you fight for the people you love most in prayer. That's why we're offering you two free resources called 15 Prayers for Your Husband and 15 Prayers for Your Son or Daughter. Visit the link in any of our show notes for season 12 to download and begin covering your family in scripture-based prayers today. Welcome back to Therapy & Theology, where we help you work through what you walk through. I'm your host, Shay Hill, and I'm so glad you're tuning in today. You're about to hear from myself, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, and Counselor Rebecca Maxwell as we sit and ask Rebecca about the top issues she is seeing married people face right now. Our hope with this conversation is that you will be able to unearth the small issues in your marriage so that they don't become the big issues that you're facing in the future. As you fight for your family this season, maybe you're inspired to ask a question that sounds something like this. How do I really help the young people in my life who are struggling both mentally and emotionally? If that's you, whether you're a parent, a grandparent, or someone who just feels called to help, we're here to help you. That's why I want to tell you about the Youth Mental Health Coach Program from the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. It is a biblically-based, clinically-excellent training that equips you with practical, real-world tools to support youth and their families. You'll learn how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health challenges facing young people today, including anxiety, depression, digital addiction, and emotional regulation. You'll also learn how to respond with care, when to step in, and when to refer to a professional. Right now, you can receive a full-tuition scholarship and get started when you pay a one-time $54 technology fee. Friend, this is the training that will give you the confidence to make a real difference. Learn more and apply at mentalhealthcoach.org, or you can visit the link in our show notes. Before we jump in, here are just a few reminders. We are launching a brand-new podcast-exclusive segment in 2026 called Listener Mail, brought to you by Compassion International. These segments will include a question pulled from one of our listeners, just like you, and an answer from either Lysa, Jim, or Dr. Joel. Tune in on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and make sure you stay listening all the way through the end so you don't miss this special segment of each episode. And lastly, we want to know how Therapy & Theology is helping you work through what you're walking through. So leave us a review or a comment on YouTube and tell us all about it. Okay, now on to today's conversation. Welcome back to Therapy & Theology. I'm your host, Shea Hill, and I'm so excited to be with you today. I've been sitting in the studio listening to all of these conversations so far, but today I'm jumping in to join you for this conversation, and I'm here with my friends, Dr. Joel Muddamalle, of course, and Rebecca Maxwell, our counselor. And Rebecca, I'm really going to look to you to get us started for today's conversation. So as we were talking about fighting for your family, I knew that I wanted to make sure we talked about fighting for your marriage, because I know you've done a lot of work in your counseling practice of talking about how, you know, the marriage is the core, the foundation, really, of the family. And so I feel like you could honestly say the health of your family can really be determined by the health of your marriage. And so I want to make sure we spend time talking about that in these episodes. And so I'm curious in your practice, what are some root issues that you're seeing in marriage? Things that they might seem small right now, or they're just a little reoccurring fights, or the little tiffs maybe, the little hiccups that you experience. But actually, if you could draw a line to a time in the future, let's say five years, ten years, whatever you want to say, those small things can actually become much bigger issues. And I feel like today, if we can spend some time talking about some of those things, we'll be able to put in the work to intentionally attack those root issues so that we don't have to look down the road ten years from now and say, oh, I wish I would have dealt with that then. So take us there. I know that you sit with so many families, so many married couples. What are you seeing? What are some of these top kind of root issues that you see?

Speaker 2:
[04:48] I think one thing is I see a lot of people avoiding conflict. Conflict is normal and natural in any relationship. And so many people don't know how to do conflict well, and so they'll avoid it. And so then we have these simmering resentments. We have the rug is getting a bump because we've put so much stuff under there. And those unresolved things begin to disconnect us. And research is showing us that divorce a lot of times comes at the hands of disconnection for one reason or another. But there are a lot of couples that just kind of grow apart because they have these, they're avoiding these necessary difficult conversations. And with that, I mentioned repair. When you don't repair well, you know, we live in this broken world and we have these hurts and these cuts and these injuries to our relationships that are normal because we're human beings bumping up against each other. But if we don't know how to repair well, then we're just, you know, walking around with a bunch of bumps and bruises that don't seem to heal. So those are a couple big things.

Speaker 1:
[06:01] Yeah, that's so good. I want to talk really quickly about something you just said about the growing apart. Something I said to you downstairs, Joel, as we were prepping for this episode is, I heard a podcast the other day saying, they reference a Christine Kane quote. I think it was like a passion message that she gave a couple years ago. And she's talking about our spiritual walk with the Lord, but I think this really applies to marriage and what you just said. And she said, the only thing you have to do to drift is nothing. And as you're talking about avoiding conflict or just honestly reaching a place in your marriage or you're coasting, it makes me think of that quote. Because I think one of the things that we can experience in marriage is the only thing it takes to drift is nothing. And you can fill in the blank of what that nothing is, right? It could be avoiding conflict. It could be avoiding connection and things like that. But that's why I'm so glad we're having conversations like these, because it's almost like a warning sign or kind of like a stop to be like, how are we doing?

Speaker 2:
[07:00] If you don't tend to that garden, it will dry up.

Speaker 1:
[07:02] Right, right, for sure. That's so good.

Speaker 2:
[07:05] And I think our marriages are like a garden.

Speaker 1:
[07:07] Right.

Speaker 2:
[07:08] We have to continue to get to know our spouse because we change over our lifespan.

Speaker 1:
[07:13] For sure.

Speaker 2:
[07:13] I know there's this phrase that people don't change and that's not true at all. We're constantly changing and if we don't continue to get to know our partner, we will drift.

Speaker 1:
[07:22] For sure. And something else about the conflict thing too is I've noticed that if you kind of avoid conflict, because you don't always have the time to have it out at that moment, or you're just like, it's not the moment, but over time, if that becomes the pattern that you do, then every time you do half the time, I guess, to get into an argument, it actually becomes so much bigger than what the original thing was about. And you're like, if we just would have made time for that one conversation, it wouldn't have turned into this kind of kitchen sink argument, if you will, where it's like we're not talking about just one thing anymore, now we're talking about multiple things. Is there anything else on conflict you want to add, Joel?

Speaker 3:
[08:03] I think I'm going to pitch to Rebecca a lot on this one.

Speaker 1:
[08:08] I know, I'm like, guide us.

Speaker 3:
[08:09] I know, I know, I'm like, take notes. There's one thing, Rebecca, I actually had a conversation with a friend a couple months ago, and basically, long story short, looks like a divorce is coming up, married for a couple of years, and begin to kind of process, like, hey, what happened and what's going on? And as the individual kind of began to process, it seemed like there was these three buckets of really what you said, Shay, of over time lack of attention, which became disconnection, which turned into deep division, you know?

Speaker 1:
[08:44] The drift. The drift just took place.

Speaker 3:
[08:46] Yeah, and it was these three areas. It was financial, it was religious, like, what church do we go to? I don't feel like I belong, like I'm connected, and then sexual. Like, where are the levels of intimacy, just expectations, I don't know what that looks like. And, you know, I always tell college students when I'm with guys at college ministries and I'm speaking at stuff, it's like, getting married and having sex doesn't fix the brokenness of your heart.

Speaker 1:
[09:15] Do they just look at you absolutely stunned?

Speaker 3:
[09:18] Stunned and shocked.

Speaker 1:
[09:19] And disappointed.

Speaker 3:
[09:20] And probably think I'm a liar. Like, you know, like, what are you talking, you know?

Speaker 1:
[09:23] Or they're like, easy for him to say, he's already married.

Speaker 3:
[09:25] He's already married. And honestly, it's just, it's just, that's not how it works. I think you could ask anybody who's been married, who goes, yeah, absolutely. That actually in itself, that category in and of itself. And I think pornography has really messed up, like how we have viewed sexuality and intimacy. But I kind of would love to know from you, Rebecca, like how, you know, like these are the things that are so small in the very beginning. Like I joke, so I'm gonna put myself on blast. So, Britt and I, our personality types are very different, you know, so she's like, yes. She's been, we've been in friendship for 10 years in the ministry, right? So it's like, okay, Britt is like a target. And if she was here, she'd be like, totally cool with me saying this. I've said it in public, all kinds of places. So, Britt's like, go to Target and buy like all kinds of stuff for $10, $5, or whatever, right, like that's just like her spending habit, or no big deal, right, fine. I am like so, like I don't buy anything, ever, until, until you do, until I do. And when I do, I have no problem swiping that credit card, you know, like I will swipe. And that for the first couple of years of our marriage, like became one of the biggest levels of tension. And, you know, I would be resentful because I'm like, why are you coming on with all of these things? We don't even need it, you know? And then she would be like, what is this bill on our, you know, like what in the world is going on? And over time we realized, oh, like we had to attend to those kinds of things. And so curious how you would just kind of respond to that.

Speaker 1:
[10:53] That's such a good example, because it seems small in the moment.

Speaker 3:
[10:55] Yes, yes.

Speaker 2:
[10:57] I think what the deeper issue is, is how you talk about those things. And if you talk about those things, you know, whether it be financial, religious or sexual, it's what are your expectations going into the relationship around those things? How are we different in those things? How can we value those differences? Because God obviously made us different. And then how do we talk about them? And do we talk about them? Are we going to communicate in a way that is seeking understanding of two different perspectives? I'm just thinking about the financial perspectives on those, on what you mentioned with your wife. Or even like sexual. What are the expectations we have? What are sexual relationships going to be? And, oh, by the way, getting married doesn't equal perfect sex life.

Speaker 3:
[11:48] Right.

Speaker 2:
[11:48] Anyone that's married can attest to that.

Speaker 3:
[11:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:51] But I think we think, especially in our churches, as we're telling our kids to wait and that sex is meant for the covenant of marriage, that there's this belief that it's going to be amazing and wonderful because we've waited. And we're all sexually broken just like we're broken in every other way. And so when we don't talk about those things and the expectations around them, we become disappointed. And then we think there's something wrong with us, with our partner. And if we don't learn to talk about those in a way that is vulnerable and understanding and finding common ground and valuing one another, then we can certainly, those things can bring us apart.

Speaker 1:
[12:36] It's so interesting. And what I am really hearing you say is, we all have our issues, different things that will come up. It's not even, if there's not like a ranking system of, these issues mean you're doomed and these mean that you're not, but it's really about the conversations you're having around those issues. And one of the things that I've heard you talk about too, is like emotional intimacy. And I think those conversations and how they go and how you both show up to those conversations, the respect that you bring for one another. And those conversations can really contribute to the building or the destroying of the emotional intimacy that you have. Will you talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 2:
[13:16] Yeah, I think that emotional intimacy goes hand in hand with vulnerability. And so it's knowing your partner on an emotional level, meaning, what are their biggest hurts and hangups? You know, how were they raised? Do they have, you know, either traumas or difficult things in their past?

Speaker 1:
[13:38] And triggers because of that.

Speaker 2:
[13:39] And triggers because of it, triggers and cues and things that, you know, my husband can say something a certain way and it's going to cue my emotional system. And if I'm not, well, the example that I use a lot is that my husband grew up in a very chaotic home and his mom had mental illness and she was gone a lot at big moments of his life. So early in our marriage, I'm kind of more of a withdraw in the relationship. I want to like storm out and have my moment and I'm that way too. Go figure it out myself. We've talked about this before. Yeah, and it would devastate him because of his sensitivity to the home that he grew up in. And so, when we learn those things about our partner, we become more emotionally intimate with them. We know them on a deeper level. And that's what caring for the relationship involves, is knowing one another that deep. The vulnerabilities and the hangups and the hurts and tending to those and really trying not to hurt our partner in that way.

Speaker 1:
[14:49] Right, right, and the more you get to know their story, their trauma, their triggers, it not only helps you love them better, but show up better in those conversations, so that you're not avoiding conflict or weaponizing conflict and really triggering them. See you opening your Bible over there. So I'm like, are you about to say something really good over there?

Speaker 3:
[15:07] Well, no, I was just thinking about the vulnerability. Like you said, the vulnerability, and I learned once that the Latin word for vulnerability comes from the Latin word volnare, which means a willingness to be or opening up to be wounded. And so like that's terrifying. Like that's a terrifying thing. And part of marriage is there's a vulnerability to it. And you're stepping in, whether in these categorical areas like financial, religious, sexual, or in terms of intimacy or conflict, whatever it might be, there's a sense in which you walk into that relationship and you're making an intentional decision to trust somebody else to rightly handle your heart. And in the absence of that rightly handling, there can be wounding that takes place. I remember I was getting ready to do a wedding for someone and I was studying Genesis chapter 2, particularly in verse 24 where it says, this is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife and they become one flesh. And it's like, why is it so important to deal with these root issues, these small issues before they become big? Because I think that at that moment when we bond together, that bonding is really important, but we have to be careful that we don't leave crevices that are there for these small things to have a little bit of leverage. And all you need is a little bit of leverage. And that little bit of leverage will be a means by which the enemy can use to create all kinds of separation and chaos. My wife is in her sourdough era. Have you guys heard about sourdough?

Speaker 1:
[16:42] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[16:42] They're doing these sourdough. Do you have a sourdough starter?

Speaker 2:
[16:44] No, but I want one.

Speaker 3:
[16:46] I mean, we have one at the house. We have gone through four casualties. Let me tell you, we have gone through four sourdough casualties. I have heard it's a journey. I mean, they even had to change the temperature in my house, which I care about my temperature.

Speaker 1:
[16:59] For colder or hotter?

Speaker 3:
[17:01] I like to keep my house cold.

Speaker 2:
[17:02] I don't know. I might not be cut out for that, then.

Speaker 3:
[17:05] It's this interesting thing, though, that all you need is just a little bit of the scraps of the starter, though, and if you feed it, it just grows, right? And I kind of think, as an illustration, when these little things that are un- dealt with and they become leverages, when you're supposed to have a tight seal of a bond, but you feed these things, they grow and they create chaos and there's a rip that happens. And then it's like, well, why does this hurt so much? Well, this is where the research was so interesting, that English word bonds comes from a Hebrew word that is the same word that's used of the scales of an alligator to protect the alligator. And then in terms of etymology, it's actually the same word that's also used later on to describe the metal breastplate that's used to protect, like in metallurgy, your vital organs. And so, for instance, when we talk about divorce, or we talk about the death of a marriage, and people are like, oh my gosh, this is so painful, I typically respond like, of course it is. Like, of course it is. Imagine the scales of an alligator getting ripped off, and it's like, that's painful, because once it bonds, it was never intended to be ripped off in such a way. And so that's why I think, Rebecca, I'm so grateful for you and Shay for just kind of pointing these things out, because it's these little things that have to be addressed, otherwise it will create this chaos.

Speaker 4:
[18:27] Hi everyone, Lysa TerKeurst here. I'm pausing today's conversation because I want to tell you something important. One of the biggest concerns we hear from our Therapy and Theology listeners, pastors, teachers, and especially parents and grandparents, is that they don't feel equipped to help the young people in their lives who are struggling mentally and emotionally. If that sounds familiar, I want to share something powerful from our friends at the American Association of Christian Counselors and Light University. They've put together the Youth Mental Health Coach Program, a biblically based, clinically excellent training designed to support parents and caregivers in navigating youth mental health challenges. This course walks you step by step through how to recognize 15 of the most common mental health struggles that young people are facing today, including anxiety and depression to digital addiction and emotional regulation. You will also find how to relate to them, how to respond to them, and when it's necessary to refer them to a professional. The best part, you can claim a full tuition scholarship right now. Just pay a one-time technology fee of $54 to get started. Whether you're in ministry, a teacher, counselor, or even feel just called to help, this training gives you tools and confidence to make a difference in the lives of youth and their families. To learn more and apply, visit mentalhealthcoach.org. Now, let's get back to today's conversation.

Speaker 1:
[20:07] And the opposite is true as well. I think when you're in a season where your marriage is the best it's ever been, I think that overflows into every other area of your life, because it's such an important, unique, distinguished relationship. And then the opposite is true, like you said Joel, when there's pain in that relationship, you feel like you can't see straight. It is all consuming, but it's like you said, it's because that wounding took place, that vulnerability.

Speaker 2:
[20:36] That's how important these bonds are.

Speaker 1:
[20:39] Right.

Speaker 2:
[20:39] They are literally safety or danger cues in our brain. When we are securely bonded, it's like a safety cue, like you said, it flows into everything else. We can show up in the world very competent and capable. And when that bond is fractured, it feeds into everything else in our life. And we have a hard time showing up the way we need to because that bond is safety or danger in our brain.

Speaker 1:
[21:10] Yeah. And that bond, that safety contributes to the connection. And you've talked about fighting for connection and coming together from a connected place. Will you circle back a little bit to conflict or fighting? It could even be something you're trying to tackle together. Let's say you've got an issue with one of your kids or something. It's not conflict necessarily between you guys and your marriage, but it's something you have to tackle together. What does it look like to tackle those issues, to fight for those things from a place that's connected? When you feel safe, what does that actually look like practically?

Speaker 2:
[21:47] So to your point, you have to recognize that the issue is not husband or wife. But the issue is separate. Even the conflict, or sometimes I like to refer to it as the negative cycle that you can get into, where one person is critical and one person withdraws. That's a typical cycle. Recognizing that the dynamic that's keeping you stuck is the enemy, and your partner is not the enemy. So when you are doing conflict from a connected place, it's we are going to connect before we try to solve this issue. Usually, we try to solve the issue. Let's argue it out. Let's see which person is going to get their way.

Speaker 1:
[22:34] And then you're not getting anywhere sometimes. And would you say that's because you're disconnected?

Speaker 2:
[22:38] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[22:39] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[22:39] Because when you're connected, you're able to listen and slow down and understand the other person's perspective, to honor it, to acknowledge it, even validate it. And when both people feel like, okay, I'm seen, right? My perspective is valid here. Now you are connected and you can move into solving from a place of how do we help both people meet the needs that they have in this conflict?

Speaker 1:
[23:06] Yeah, that's so good. I love that so much. So we've talked about conflict and necessary conversations. We've talked about connection and really trying to regain connection before we solve issues. We've talked about trust and safety and vulnerability. This has been so good. I really also just want to go back to something you said, too, of the importance of knowing your partner's story. And just even through, I mean, depending on how long you've been married, maybe some of us haven't asked those questions in a long time, of really sitting with our partner and asking them questions about their growing up years or conflict styles they saw on their parents, or you would know better things to ask. I'm trying to think of things on the fly. But truthfully, I think as the longer you've been together, it's easier to kind of get in your routines and be like, I know them, and of course you do, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're sitting and asking those intentional questions. And I think I'm personally challenged today after listening to you to really revisit some of those parts of my husband's story so that I can better show up for him in those ways. But to close today, as we kind of wrap up this conversation, I thought it would be good, and I'm gonna put you on the spot just a little bit, but I'll go first so that you have time to think about it. But I feel like, as I was just looking at all three of us at this table, we all represent a different season of life of marriage and a different season of family life. So I've been married a little over three years. We don't have kids yet. You, Joel, are in the active parenting years. Your kids are 14 to...

Speaker 3:
[24:40] 14 to six.

Speaker 1:
[24:41] 14 to six, okay. Your kids, Rebecca, are older. You've been married how long?

Speaker 2:
[24:45] 25 years.

Speaker 1:
[24:46] 25 years and you're at? 16. 16, okay. So, we all are in these different stages of life and in marriage and so I would just love for each of us to share something you're learning right now, a word of encouragement you have because chances are for every single person listening, maybe they fall into one of our categories, if you will, of family life or marriage. And just leave like a word of encouragement or something you're learning right now and I think that would be a great way to end. So, I'll start and I would say something that I am realizing in this season of life. It's kind of an ongoing life thing, if you will. I remember being in college and people telling me, you're never gonna have as much time as you do right now. But Shay in college did not believe that. I mean, maybe I had the time, but I filled it with stuff. But then I look back and I'm like, I was only in class for 12 hours a week.

Speaker 4:
[25:39] Like, what was going on? Those were the days.

Speaker 1:
[25:44] Those were the days. And you know what? I feel like that those were the days, I'm so glad you said that, can be applied to so many seasons because I know that I know that I know Elliot and I are in one of those seasons right now. We will look back and say those were the days where we have the most time, the least responsibility as far as no kids. We don't even have a pet, guys. We don't even have a dog. I don't have a cat. I don't even have a goldfish, okay? So truly, I mean, this season of life is a season of investing in our marriage. And I don't want to miss that. And I think I saw a clip from Craig Groeschel, I mean, incredible man and just man of faith in our culture today. But he said something like, if you're going to neglect something, don't let it be your marriage. There are so many other things that we can neglect. And if you're going to neglect something, it better not be your marriage. And it really just got me thinking about all the things that beg for our attention or in our culture right now, people like obsessed with their protein goals and their routines and their cold plunging and all of that stuff. And I love that stuff too. But it's so easy for those things that seem important to become ultimate things. And I want my marriage to be an ultimate thing. And so I'm challenged just to really realize that we're in the good old days right now and to really invest in that time and not let it slip away and to not neglect that, you know. So that's my encouragement and also just my reminder to myself to either one of y'all want to go next?

Speaker 3:
[27:20] I can go next.

Speaker 1:
[27:21] Okay, let's go.

Speaker 3:
[27:22] You know, I think that for Britt and I, it's actually Rebecca, one of the things that you said, we just were talking about this other day, that we are very different than who we were when we first got married. I mean, we're talking, married for 16, going on 17 years, have known each other for close to 20 years, right? So it's like, what? And we're also in a unique or interesting season where, when we do an audit of a lot of the people that we all got married kind of around the same time, it's a bit tragic because there's a lot of people that just didn't make it, you know? And we look back on it and we were doing a little bit of an assessment, like how, like what happened. And I think one of the things that we learned early on, I think we stumbled into it. I don't think we like just were like, oh, yeah, I got, you know, we were like really in fire, like being refined into it, was recognizing that it wasn't a mistake when we made a decision to get married together, that it was a covenant that we made together and it wasn't based off of emotions, it wasn't based off of feelings, it was based on like, this is a covenant commitment to each other. And part of that was that then created the almost allegiance and order in how we made decisions moving forward. And an aspect of that too is we created space for each other to develop the way that God was developing us, while always trying to do our very best to keep him at the forefront of that relationship. So we have changed significantly over the years. But in the process of change, because we kept the Lord at the center of it, we've changed in a way that maintains the distinction of who we are. But we're still growing together in Jesus.

Speaker 1:
[29:01] Yeah, you've changed together.

Speaker 3:
[29:02] Yeah, and I just think that that's kind of an important thing. And there's parts of it where Bert has been very honest with me, some hard conversations, when job opportunities have come up, when, you know, where she's been like, I just, that's not where I feel like the Lord has called me. And I was like, oh, well, God called us together. So if he hasn't called you to that, that makes this decision so easy for me, because I'm not doing that, because I'm, you know? And vice versa, and so, but that's been a really hard thing that we stumbled into, that I wish I had that kind of information at the very beginning, to create that space for each of us to grow and to love who we uniquely are as we've grown and not like have resentment or regret over, but I married her from back then and she's not that person. I'm like, oh, this is a better Brett than I thought it would be.

Speaker 1:
[29:48] But what's so cool, Joel, is maybe you stumbled into it, but you just intentionally laid it out there for someone else that's listening today that's going to hear that and they won't have to stumble their way through that. So that's so good. Okay, Rebecca, what do you have for us?

Speaker 2:
[30:03] So I would echo a ton of things you said in terms of growing together and growing as individuals. I think as we've grown in individuals, we've been involved in our own things. There was a very brief two and a half years where we worked together.

Speaker 3:
[30:20] Wow, you won't hear about this.

Speaker 2:
[30:22] It was not good for me. My husband loved it, but I felt like he was invading my territory. But what my husband realized-

Speaker 1:
[30:30] Is that why it was brief?

Speaker 2:
[30:31] That's why it was brief. But what's so amazing about my husband is that he realized that even though he loved that, it wasn't for me that I needed my own space to grow and allow God to grow me and develop me. And so we did that and we both have a good balance where we have things where we're growing separately. And then we have always prioritized our time together. Our kids always saw us going on date nights and they saw us going on vacations together. And so we've always had this good blend of we've had our own thing and we've had a lot of things together. And I think that that's really important, too. And everybody may be a little bit different in that, but I certainly needed the blend of that. And then with our kids, like really learning them at all of their stages of life. And also holding our parenting a little open-handed because we're doing it for the first time all the time. And knowing that we're going to know them as adults much longer than we knew them as children.

Speaker 3:
[31:42] Which is a wild thought, by the way.

Speaker 2:
[31:44] Wild. Because it feels like this is never going to end. The stage that you're in.

Speaker 3:
[31:48] I had a friend mention that to me the other day, and I was like, I've never thought about that. Like, oh, that's so hopeful.

Speaker 2:
[31:55] It feels like it's never going to end. And in my mind, I thought it would never end. And then when my first son was a senior in high school, I thought, this is ending. What is going to happen? And for women, I can speak, for women probably are experiencing this. And then when I see their kids go to college, and all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, it's time to really focus on my career now. What does the Lord have for me? Whereas my husband's like, can I play more golf? And how long till I retire? I'm like going this way.

Speaker 1:
[32:29] Why is golf the longest hobby that they could have found? The most time consuming?

Speaker 2:
[32:34] It's so long.

Speaker 1:
[32:35] It's so long.

Speaker 2:
[32:36] But it's okay, because as previously stated, I like time to myself.

Speaker 1:
[32:39] Right, right. We need both. We need both. That was just my three second tangent about golf.

Speaker 2:
[32:46] So I guess my encouragement for folks is life and the Lord are gonna take you on a great adventure. And if you can just cleave to your partner and you guys can continue to get to know each other at each stage, he will take you on a grand adventure together and separately. And in each stage, there's something new to learn. And when you have a partner that you love and that knows you so well, it really is, I think, there's a lot of joy in the journey.

Speaker 1:
[33:17] That's so good. Such a good place to end today, friends. I hope wherever you're listening, whether you're in a season where you feel like your marriage is flourishing and thriving, or maybe you're in a season where you're longing for marriage, I pray that you listen to today's episode and that you're encouraged as you're going on dates or you're in a season of dating and it gives you some kind of parameters of things to think about, or even if you're in a season where your marriage is suffering or hurting. I hope that you feel encouraged and met today with wisdom, but also honestly just friends who are in your corner, who know what it feels like to have those days. And so we are with you, we're for you, and as you fight for your family, I pray that you also fight for your marriage. And now it's time for Listener Mail, where we respond to your questions. Today's Listener Mail is brought to you by Compassion International, which I'm so excited to tell you more about. Compassion is fighting child poverty in powerful, practical ways. Through the work of local churches and the generosity of sponsors like you and me, Compassion is releasing children from poverty in Jesus' name. We've seen the impact of sponsorship firsthand through education, medical care, healthy food, clean water, and the love and hope of the gospel. And now we want to invite you to join us in sponsoring a child. When you sponsor, you'll receive a copy of the Proverbs 31 Ministries Study Guide titled, Keep Holding On, as our thank you for investing in the life of a child. Go to compassion.com/lysa to choose a child to sponsor today. Okay friends, let's hear today's question. This listener says, I went through a hard breakup two years ago. I thought God was in it as it seemed to be everything I had prayed for and for the first time in my life, I pictured my future with a guy so clearly, but unfortunately, it didn't work out. The pain has gone thankfully, but I'll admit, I still grieve the dreams I had, the kids, the house, and what could have been. My question is, how can I trust God when my life has taken a different turn than I hoped or imagined? I'm going to pass it off to Lysa TerKeurst to answer this question.

Speaker 4:
[35:26] First, I want to acknowledge that what you've been through is really, really hard. I know what it's like to have dreams of the future snatched away, and then grieving those things that you thought would be. I've often said grief is like dreaming in reverse. You see, when you're dreaming about the future, you're looking forward to things happening. But grief is dreaming in reverse when you go back and you think, wow, it was really good back then, and you're doubtful that it can happen again. And so, that's really tough, and I wanted to acknowledge that with you. I know that it can also seem so confusing when you felt so certain about how something was going to turn out, and then something happens that's different, and then your trust in God is a little shaken. Here's an interesting fact. If you look at the word trust in the Bible, often the word that's used is batah, B-A-T-A-H, that's the Hebrew word for trust. And when batah is directed toward other humans, it's often used in a negative sense. But when batah, the word trust, is directed toward God, it's always in a positive sense. And I think there's a message for us there. Like, we can trust God even when we don't understand what he allows, because he is trustworthy. I know it's hard to reconcile that with the outcome that you're facing. But here's a story from my own life that I think could help you with this. When I was going through the breakup of my marriage, so many dreams died, and I was having such a hard time because when you love deep, you love big, and therefore you hurt deep and you hurt big. And I'm a very sentimental person. But in the middle of all of that, I just, another hard thing had happened, and so I had all kinds of extra time because I was grieving, I wasn't working, and I had extra time to go make different appointments with different doctors. And one of those appointments that I made, even though it wasn't time yet, but just because I had extra time on my hands, I did it. I went and got a mammogram. And then shortly after that, I was very surprisingly diagnosed with breast cancer. And so then the question, of course, became, okay, so because I had extra time, I went to the doctor and because I went to the doctor so early, they caught the cancer early enough and my life was spared. So was my marriage falling apart? Was it the worst thing that could have happened? Or was it the best thing because I stopped working and it gave me time to go do this appointment? I don't know the answer to that question, but I think when I take a step back, I can see this with great clarity. God loves us too much to answer our prayers at any other time than the right time and in any other way than the right way. What the future looks like for you, I don't know, but I do know who's already standing in the future. That is a God that we absolutely can trust. So I wonder, as you pray about your future, if instead of starting with the uncertainty, if you start with what is certain, God is good, God is good to me, and God is good at being God.

Speaker 1:
[39:01] Thanks for listening to today's episode. I'd love to personally invite you to help share these Therapy & Theology episodes with even more listeners by giving a financial gift to Proverbs 31 Ministries today. Therapy & Theology offers guidance that women can trust, not quick opinions and not noise. When they're searching, Therapy & Theology provides biblical truth that will help them take a steady next step, even in the most uncertain situations. That's the mission behind this work, and I want you to be a part. Go to proverbs31.org/give now to give today.