transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:15] He was one of the founding fathers of the Athenian Empire. The statesman who rose from relative obscurity to lead Athens to victory during its war against the mighty Persian Empire. The charismatic leader who convinced Athens to invest in its ships and become one of the most prolific sea powers of ancient history, and who would then strengthen his beloved city on land too, building miles of fortifications that went on to bear his name. Themistocles Those are the achievements many recognize this ancient Athenian for today. But Themistocles' reputation wasn't always so pristine. In fact, the real Themistocles was a divisive political figure who experienced multiple rises and falls. A man who took advantage of a fledgling democracy in Athens at the turn of the 5th century BC to rise high but then ultimately fall. Ending his days condemned as a traitor and in the service of the Persian king. Yes, that's right. Themistocles ended his days working for the superpower he is today most famous for beating in battle. Welcome to The Ancients. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. And this is the story, the rise and falls of Themistocles. Our guest is Dr. Michael Scott, Professor of Classics and Ancient History at Warwick University and the author of Themistocles, The Rise and Fall of Athens' Naval Mastermind. Michael, what a pleasure to have you back on the show. It has been too long.

Speaker 2:
[01:54] Well, it's fabulous to be here in the studio. Like, absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1:
[01:58] And to talk about this fascinating figure of Themistocles, both a hero and a villain and a traitor. He's loved, but he's also hated. I mean, this is a guy who failed and succeeded. All of these contrasts, but they define his character so well.

Speaker 2:
[02:12] Yeah. When Yale University Press came and they said, who would you want to write about for this ancient live series that they were constructing? And pretty quickly, my mind sort of focused in on this guy, Themistocles, because I've lost count the number of times I'll have mentioned him in lectures and talks over the years, because he is so associated with these one or two really key moments in the story of Athenian and Greek history that are real turning points and real high points from the Greek perspective for their story. But actually, if you just move the focus away from those moments, what else does he get up to? What happens in between those moments? Who was he as a person? What's motivating him? Where does he come from? All of these questions are less often asked. And it felt to me really important to actually do a bit of a work to fill in the blanks, to be able to understand Themistocles as a whole, as a character, as a life lived. And I have to say that at the same time as I started writing this book, my wife and I were expecting our son. And he was born about a week or so after I finished the first draft of the book. And the book is dedicated to him because what became really clear to me is Themistocles is famous, infamous for the amazing things, these amazing moments. And what we often do, I think, when we look at famous and successful people is we see in hindsight this great successful career. And as a result, every step in that career ends up looking like it was a natural progression to the next successful thing, that the rise was assured, the success was inevitably going to happen, that they knew exactly what they were doing at every stage of their lives. And what became really clear from really digging in to the career of Themistocles is that his life was not at all like that. You know, that actually his start was very uncertain. His background, no one would have picked him out as being somebody that was going to go on to do something special. And more importantly, every decision he made, he didn't know that it was going to be a success and where it was going to lead to. And more importantly, as you've outlined, you know, as many decisions as you might have got right, you also got an equal number absolutely stonkingly wrong. And so what we've got here, I hope, is a portrait of a life as lives are really lived. And that's why it was really important for me in the subtitle of the book to make sure that it had, you know, Themistocles, the rise and fall of Athens' naval statesman. And, you know, if I'd had my way, to be honest, I would have said the rises and the falls, or the rise and the fall and the rise and the falls and the rise and the fall again, because that is the reality of Themistocles' life. And to me, that makes him much more interesting.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] It's more relatable, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[04:55] Much more interesting, much more, you know, more relatable, but also as a reminder to my infant son, who at the moment is not reading Themistocles, you know, he's very much in Pepper Pig era, age two, but in the future, that, you know, when you look around you and you see these people with these great successful careers and brilliant things that they've done, actually digging into that always reveals a much more uncertain and a much more uneven career. And that is everyone's life.

Speaker 1:
[05:19] I feel we should mention though, first of all, those big moments that he is associated with. What are these moments that become almost the gateway drug for people to want to learn more about this figure?

Speaker 2:
[05:29] Yeah, so there are effectively two, right? And the first is when Themistocles is in his thirties. He is now, at this point, we're talking about the late 490s and into the 480s BCE in Athens. And he is clearly a powerful and important voice within the Athenian city-state at this time. And he's playing important roles within the civic infrastructure and the political system. And he starts saying, we should think about the sea people. We should think about building up not just our natural port, because Piraeus, which is the modern-day port of Athens, was not actually, at the time, the port that the Athenians used for their fleet. It was just around a bay or two around at a place called Phalaron. But he's associated with the story of, right, let's build up the Piraeus. It's a much better, more defensible, bigger harbour. And then when the Athenians, in the middle of the 480s, discover completely by accident this big new seam of silver at the place called Laurion, in the territory of Attica, the countryside around Athens, and they go, hmm, what should we do with it? And there's a big debate. On the one hand, Athens, at this point, is a fledgling democracy, and they go, well, we should divide it up equally, and each have an equal share. Themistocles is accredited with saying, ah, nah, let's use this to absolutely leapfrog all other competitors in the Greek world and build a navy that will catapult us into being the most preeminent sea power of the Greek world. And looking at that, it's a great tactical decision because they were never gonna be able to challenge on land. They were already really, really good Greek land armies, think the Spartans, think anyone else, right? But on sea, actually, there was a chance for Athens to become preeminent. And so they invest the money in this fleet. Now that's a good decision in the world of the Greek world where, as you know, it's not one unified country. It's up to a thousand different city states who are spending their entire time just basically shouting in at war with one another. And within that context, it's a good decision. But it becomes a brilliant decision when just a couple of years later, the Persians turn up and they turn up with this enormous Amada and land army. And suddenly, Athens' navy is absolutely critical in helping to defeat that Persian navy at the Battle of Salamis, at which Themistocles is also credited with having a brilliant tactical idea to draw the Athenian, the Persian fleet, I should say, into the narrow straits of Salamis, between the island of Salamis and the territory of Attica, where the Athenian superior naval techniques and tactics and ships can actually have a chance to defeat the much bigger, in terms of numbers, Persian navy. So that's the kind of moment number one, which is associated with the sea and with command and mastery of the sea that then becomes critical in the defeat of the Persians. And if there's a second moment, it's in the mid-470s, when Themistocles actually has had a fall. We think, he's this great general who has led the Athenians to victory at Salamis. He's been the brilliant architect of this naval kind of armada. And then he gets completely dropped. In the early 470s, you don't hear anything about him. The Athenian people have just shoved him aside and gone, thanks very much, and moved on. And he has to reinvent his importance with a new issue. And that new issue for him is wall building. And so he suddenly becomes the biggest proponent of Athens building itself, some really stout, defensible city walls that will eventually become the city walls around Athens, city walls around the port of Piraeus, and the walls that link the two. So Athens is completely, if you like, protected from land attack and able to sustain long-term seizures.

Speaker 1:
[09:28] The so-called long walls.

Speaker 2:
[09:30] The so-called long walls of Athens. And again, within five or six decades, these will become absolutely instrumental in helping Athens to survive, for as long as it did, in the Great Greek Civil War, the Peloponnesian War that will break out. So building an armada at sea and focusing on Athenian mastery at sea, and then protecting Athens itself through these city walls, are these two big key moments that Themistocles gets associated with.

Speaker 1:
[09:57] So that's good to start us off there. But as we're going to explore, there is so much more. It is not just those big moments, but we can still explore them as well. To learn more about Themistocles today, do we have quite a lot of source material?

Speaker 2:
[10:09] We do and we don't.

Speaker 1:
[10:11] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[10:12] So he appears in the great historical narratives of the era. So Herodotus, obviously, writing his histories, Herodotus is writing in the 420s BCE, so sometime after Themistocles has died, it's definitely not a kind of... Herodotus himself is hearing stories from others that have been passed down to him that he's then recording.

Speaker 1:
[10:31] And he's the so-called father of history.

Speaker 2:
[10:32] The so-called father of history. He's there, the guy who comes up with the word history, whereas it's a historia in the Greek, an investigation into why did the Greeks and Persians come to fight together in the Persian war. So obviously Themistocles has a role to play in that. He's also mentioned a lot by the next great historian of the Greek world, Thucydides, who's writing at the very end of the 5th century. But again, a little bit further away in time and reflecting. And then he gets picked up by different historians over the period, but you dialed through to the first centuries AD, and you're getting then Plutarch, who is writing a whole series of biographies. But specifically of people that he wants you to emulate. Plutarch wrote about lives of people he thought would be good to try and copy, and so you get this biography of Themistocles, but it's all the good bits. So that bit we're talking about where he gets dumped by the Athenian people after 480 and sort of gone, thank you, and now move on, there's nothing heroic to say about Themistocles during that period. And so Plutarch is absolutely silent about it. He's like, let's skip over that and get back to when he rises again. And then we have later biographers than Plutarch, Cornelius Napos. We have third and fourth century kind of rhetoricians who write these bizarre sort of fake court speeches of Themistocles and his dad who are going against one another. So there's lots of later evidence. The problem is, as ever, we'd love some actually contemporary evidence from the era of Themistocles. And that is few involved between this. There's no kind of historical narratives that are surviving. We do have some coins that Themistocles himself issued in the last era of his life that give us a really good indication of, well, he's directing what these coins look like. So they tell us a little bit about his mindset. We have some archaeological material, again, really closely associated with Themistocles that we can come back to, which give us those kind of ins. But otherwise, we are trying to construct an understanding of what this guy was like in a period of time for Athens, which was itself a period of fundamental change, and which the Athenians later on were constantly mythologizing, because this is the era of the development of Athens' democracy. And so kind of trying to split apart real history from that mythologizing of the origins of something that would go on to become so important for them is a really tough thing to do.

Speaker 1:
[13:10] There's very much a legend of Themistocles that evolves over the centuries that follow.

Speaker 2:
[13:14] And he's totally associated, his legend is totally associated with the legend of the development of democracy. And you can see why. I mean, if you dial back to, he's born 5243 BC, when Athens is under a tyrant ruler, right? Democracy hasn't been invented, word doesn't exist, no concept of it. When he's 10, there is the murder of the son of that tyrant ruler who had moved to become the tyrant after the death of his father at a big Athenian festival. And things start to really shake in the kind of foundations of Athenian society. When he's 16, that's the big revolution moment of 508 BCE, when the whole of Athens supposedly rose up and threw off the tyrant ruler and decided to throw their lot in with this bizarre system whereof equality, right? They still wasn't called democracy at that moment. They didn't have that word. But the entire political system of Athens changes when Themistocles is 16 years old. And as he becomes an adult, 18, 19, 20, that's when Athens starts to suddenly, as a result, many think of this new political system really starts to grow in influence and power. So he is literally growing up into a world that is itself in absolute tumultuous change and will become the system that everyone knows and talks about of Athenian democracy.

Speaker 1:
[14:43] I'd love to cover those early years because when we often do one of these big figures from ancient history, usually the cases we know next to nothing about their earliest years. But do we have any idea about Themistocles' background and what he would have been up to during those 16 years right at the end of the age of tyranny in Athens?

Speaker 2:
[15:05] We can guess the picture of his day to day, right? And the kind of education that he might have had and the kind of experience he might have had. But I think what is really important to understand from what we know about Themistocles is that if the system around him had not changed in the direction that it did, it's very unlikely he would have amounted to anything.

Speaker 1:
[15:28] Really?

Speaker 2:
[15:29] Because what we know about him is that he is not from one of the elite aristocratic families of Athens that hitherto had pretty much governed what Athens went on to do.

Speaker 1:
[15:41] But if Athens was a tyranny at that moment, even if one of those aristocratic families, they're not linked to the tyranny, but would they have usually been the big advisors or the significant figures in that tyranny?

Speaker 2:
[15:53] Yeah, absolutely. So effectively, at the period that Themistocles is born, there are two major rival families, the Pisistratids on one hand, the Alchemyonids, and between them, they're pretty much power-sharing. I mean, it's hard not to draw some kind of analogies to the modern world and the dynasties of families that occupy political positions. And we can do that, but Themistocles when he's born, he's not from a poor family, but what would we call that modern middle class, middle mapper, maybe, but certainly not the elite aristocrats. And his dad is operating really on the boundaries. He's in the military, he's operating at the boundaries of the Athenian world fighting force. He's an Athenian citizen, his dad, but the sources are really clear that his mom is not an Athenian. And then the sources differ on quite how non-Athenian she is. Sometimes she's just from another Greek city state, some people say she's from the like, whoa, the far edges of the Greek world. Some people say she's a complete and utter foreigner. Some go so far as to say that she's a prostitute. So we've got this odd picture of Themistocles when he's born. He's not from a great family, he's got a non-citizen mother. And then depending on which source you believe, like kind of a really non-citizen mother. And so he's got a very liminal position in Athens when he's born. And he sort of comes under this definition of what the Greeks would refer to as what we translate as a bastard, you know, effectively. But what it means is he's only got one citizen parent. And that puts him in a very disadvantageous position, particularly if the political system had not gone on to change the way it did. But, you know, so he's growing up. We think at some point in his very early years, so in that first decade, he moves back from wherever he was stationed, kind of the way his dad was stationed, back to not living in the center of town in Athens, not in the big city, but actually in the sleepy countryside of Attica. Very nice. And so, but, you know, again, from a point of view of thinking about a political career, he's not where the action is. He's in this tiny little town, not amounting to a whole hill of beans in terms of his parentage and his opportunity. Enough money in the family to get a decent education. And the later sources, you know, talk about him as a pupil, a student at school, as being really precocious and really intelligent, and always pushing back against authority, i.e. all the things that we'd like to see in a child that will go on to do the things that Themistocles will do. And, you know, kind of then, as we said, 16, he's seeing the system start to change and this new kind of system of equality emerging where there is a chance for any voice to emerge if it's strong enough, powerful enough, and convincing enough. And some point in the kind of early 20s, he comes into the city of Athens, and we would love dearly to know more about how he then goes about climbing the kind of, call it a greasy pole, if you like, of kind of Athenian civic office. But he clearly puts in the graft and we hear snippets of it. So he occupies the role of water commissioner at some point. Now, that sounds a bit dull, but on the other hand, in Greece, in antiquity, in the heat, actually the person in charge of ensuring the-

Speaker 1:
[19:23] Super important.

Speaker 2:
[19:23] Water, super important. And he clearly does a good enough job at all of these roles because when he really comes into focus, is at the end of the 490s, and he is Archon, he's magistrate, he's appointed magistrate of the city. And that's at the age of 31. And you had to be a minimum of 30 to occupy the role. So he gets there pretty quick after the minimum age. So clearly through his 20s, he has been building a rep in Athens where enough people have confidence in his ability to then entrust him with this key magistracy of the city.

Speaker 1:
[20:03] You can imagine a young and furry Themistocles, can't you? Like when that tyranny is overthrown, as it going to the big city, he's a teenager, but he's deciding, right, I'm going to make the most of this. And as you say, we wish we could know more about that decade or so, that first decade, but seemingly he climbs the new greasy, democratic pole. And by the time of his early 30s, he's in a really good position.

Speaker 2:
[20:27] But it could not have happened if the world around him hadn't changed at the time that it did, because he wouldn't have been listened to. He wouldn't have been given the chance to put his voice and his view forward.

Speaker 1:
[20:38] And the position of Archon, should we see it something like the position of Consul, that kind of really high position in the state?

Speaker 2:
[20:46] Yeah. So there were, in Athens, there were three kind of Archons. They divided up kind of responsibilities for different things between. So one was a very religious focused Archon, making sure that all the, all the religious kind of rights and customs were abided by so the gods were still on side. One was much more military focused, who would be actually the kind of general on the battlefield. And then the one in the middle, the one that Themistocles occupied, if you like, had a kind of political judicial sort of focus and mandate. And so in that year that he was Archon, we know that Themistocles had to be involved in the trial of the great Athenian general Miltiades, who was put on trial for kind of getting involved in what we know as the Ionian Revolt. So the very early 490s, Athens had decided, it was getting a bit cocky, some good victories. It decided to send some ships to aid in a rebellion against the Persian king that was happening on the other side of the Aegean over in Ionia. And this all goes spectacularly wrong, and Miltiades is involved. And so he ends up on on trial for treason in Athens during the year that Themistocles is kind of Archon. You know, so Themistocles could see at first hand quite how much this Athenian thing that had been created, this Athenian system of equality that will come to be known as democracy in the decades to come. Like, pick people up. Mr. Hades was a famous guy, really important, you know, I think. And then absolutely slap them down again.

Speaker 1:
[22:23] Right.

Speaker 2:
[22:24] And during that trial, when he's Archon, Miltiades is actually acquitted. And he will go on then to play a brilliant role in a couple of years time at the Battle of Marathon, which is when the Persians first invade Greece. But there were examples in front of Themistocles' eyes from that very moment onwards of how much the Athenian state liked to rise people up, raise people up, and then chuck them down.

Speaker 1:
[22:47] In a weird kind of way, how fickle the Athenian state could be kind of going on the urges of the public, the emotions that were there that you see time and time again in Athenian democracy from then on.

Speaker 2:
[23:00] Yeah, it's the scary and not very pleasant underbelly of a direct democratic system that it is about the will of the collective people. And even more scarily within the Athenian case, this was not a will that was decided, and views that were decided upon patient, thoughtful reflection and study of documents and of evidence and all that. It effectively was a system that listened to what people had to say and got swayed by how convincing the people were that said it.

Speaker 1:
[23:30] It's the rise of the demagogues, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[23:32] So effectively, if you could swing the people, if you were a great orator, if you were a great persuader, and as Themistocles clearly became, you had a really good chance to get the people going one way or the other. But at the same time, the Athenian, what becomes really crucial in the Athenian self-identity is that it's about the collective. It's not about the individual. So all of these individuals like Miltiades, like a number of others like Themistocles, eventually, if they step over that line and start saying, well, I did this, I led you to victory, I'm responsible. The Athenian people were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's about us. It's our victory. And that line was really at the core of understanding the Athenian collective identity and the reasons that individuals fell foul of it.

Speaker 1:
[24:28] So it's still 494, is it? That's the time of when he's Archon. Yeah. And do we know of any other big events during this time? Is there a story with Persian ambassadors?

Speaker 2:
[24:42] So at this point, there had been that Ionian revolt back in the early 490s that the Athenians had seen fit to send some ships to support. It had gone spectacularly wrong. The Persian king is going, Who are these upstart little kind of Greek fleas on the side of the great Persian empire? And so, you know, tough lad. And had sent ambassadors through Persia going, Right, you know, you guys all have to submit to me. And the way you do that is you offer me token gifts of earth and water from your land.

Speaker 1:
[25:18] As it goes to the Greek cities.

Speaker 2:
[25:19] Yeah, yeah, go right, you know, come on. And the threat was, if you don't, I'll rock up in due course with an army and I'll crush you. You know, most Greek cities went, Yep, absolutely, here's the earth and the water. The Athenians sit there, you know, they've got their assembly now and they sit there and they discuss what to do. And then the story goes that on the one hand, some are saying, no, you know, let's not give earth and water, right? No, let's not give earth and water and let's kill those messengers, which was a big deal, right? Because they're sacred, they're sacred to the gods, you know, messengers in that sense, and you're not supposed to harm them. Don't shoot the messenger, right? Kind of a thing. And Themistocles goes on further and goes, yes, kill them and let's kind of, you know, kill them in a really unpleasant way. So clearly Themistocles here is part of a kind of dialogue where he's trying to gain a certain amount of influence, credence, visibility within the public dialogue. And one of the ways he can do that is by putting up more extreme suggestion than anyone else is. Now, kind of what happens is they do, you know, famously kill the messengers. And of course, the Persian king ain't too happy about this. And so lands on the plains of Marathon, which is in the territory of Attica outside of Athens with a fleet. And he also brings with him the old tyrants that the Athenians had chucked out back in 508 BCE to reinstate, you know, kind of as the ruler. So this becomes not only a sort of, I'm going to teach you Greeks a lesson for, and particularly you Athenians a lesson for refusing me, but I'm going to take away this system of equality you've got and I'm going to put you back under the rule of a friendly tyrant. Now Themistocles is there fighting at the Battle of Maxon.

Speaker 1:
[26:59] We know he was.

Speaker 2:
[27:00] Yeah, he was there. Kind of, you know, he was one of the soldiers, could have been in charge of his contingent from his kind of group as well. But the big lead on the day, the big general on the day is that same guy, Miltides, who kind of was acquitted from treason when Themistocles was Archon. And it's Miltides that sort of is held responsible for the victory. But of course, he's not allowed to be held responsible for the victory because it's an Athenian collective. And amazingly, the Athenians are victorious over the Persians at Marathon and the Persians depart again. And so Themistocles is at the forefront of that first Persian engagement with Athens. And that will be something that later biographers like to kind of point to, going, it was Themistocles who saw that this was not over. Persians left, but he knew. And this is the kind of vision of the brilliant tactician and the brilliant foresightedness and the kind of thing, that they would be back as opposed to the rest of the Athenians who thought, yay, job done, threat over, let's go back to life as normal.

Speaker 1:
[28:06] And do they like these biographers later who were trying to laud Themistocles as the man who can read the future, who knows what's going to happen next. Do they like portraying the other argument view, well, through one particular prominent voice in the assembly, that idea that there's this big rival back in Athens who is supporting the other idea, what they should do with the money and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2:
[28:29] Yeah, so there is a guy that will be the sort of long-term rival, yeah, the counterpart. He's a guy called Aristides. And you know, Plutarch also liked him. There's a life of Aristides as well. You know, there's good things to say about him as well. But between the two of them, they are set up to be Themistocles, who's the impetuous, swift-thinking, breaking tradition coming up with the, you know, the impossible idea when everyone thought there was lost kind of guy. And Aristides is the slow but sure, sensible, trustworthy, thoughtful individual. So post-marathon, Aristides and Themistocles were both fighting there at the battle. It's Aristides who is given the honor of standing guard over all the loot that the Greeks and particularly the Athenians have captured off the Persians after the battle while everyone else has to run off back to Athens, the marathon race, back to Athens to kind of help defend in case the Persians were to come back. And Themistocles in the sources at later sources is kind of likely cheesed off that Aristides gets this honor. And you know, you can see that he's cheesed off because some of the sources talk about the fact that he goes, well, well, you know, I mean, if you want to be a banker, kind of thing, you can try to rubbish the honor that Aristides has been given. But throughout their lives, throughout the next decade, so particularly the 480s and the 470s, Aristides and Themistocles become these big yin and yang kind of voices within the Athenian assembly that are butting heads on most of the key decision moments and offering up two views and two ways to go.

Speaker 1:
[30:01] And does it ever get so far as that one might want to try and get the other one executed? Or is there a certain limit to their political rivalry?

Speaker 2:
[30:09] No, I mean, it's gloves off. I mean, it's definitely gloves off. So in the 480s, we've had the invasion of Marathon. Great. Into the 480s, that's the decade when Themistocles is convincing the Athenian assembly to spend that money, the silver mine money in the 480s on building the big fleet. So clearly he's having some success, you know, persuading them what to do. And during that point in time, you know, Aristides ends up sort of losing that debate. And what happens in the 480s in particular is the Athenian people, in that kind of, again, the power of the collective is rising, the power of the individual, they like listening to the individual, the individual can have influence, but it can't be about the individual. A new system of political expulsion is invented called ostracism.

Speaker 1:
[31:00] Right. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[31:02] Now ostracism, we call it ostracism today because what the Greeks did, the Athenians did, was they would write the name of a particular individual on a little piece of broken pottery that in ancient Greek was called an ostracon. And so ostracon, the thing you voted on for the exile vote has given us our word ostracism. And the Athenians would turn up and basically they would write the name of the person who they thought really needs to be kicked out of the city. And the person with the most votes got kicked out for 10 years. And so it's 10 years, yeah, and it's clear that the 480s is the moment when the Athenians kind of grasp this power that they have. So ostracism probably existed in the system theoretically from before that, but they've never used it. And then suddenly in the 480s, half of the known cases of ostracism from the entirety of the fifth century BCE happened in the 480s. So clearly the Athenians in this moment just go, right, you know, kind of like we've got this power to exercise over individuals who are getting too big for their boots, who are perhaps too associated with tyranny or kind of, you know, we just want to get rid of them. And ostracism very quickly becomes one of those political weapons whereby the different voices, you know, I mean, it's dog eat here, it's hunger games, it's, you know, beast games or whatever you want the analogy to be. Because we know that all of them are being voted for. Themistocles' name appears on those ostracers through the 480s, but he's just not the guy with the most votes.

Speaker 1:
[32:33] Is this one of those amazing bits of archaeological evidence that you mentioned earlier? His name are one of those things.

Speaker 2:
[32:39] So these ostracers survive, because after the vote, they're just discarded, you know, kind of, and then we dig them up and we can, they basically end up being buried in sort of particular caches that we can then date to particular votes. But Aristides, his rival, does end up getting ostracised as part of that towards the end of the 480s. And so you can see that this is a highly dynamic system in which these individuals who are rising to prominence and are wanting to put forward their views and they're wanting to convince the people of a particular course of action, it was not without the danger of ending up becoming the butt of the Athenians going, you're out.

Speaker 1:
[33:15] It's one of those fun what-if moments, isn't it? If Themistocles had been ostracised in the 480s rather than his rival, Aristides.

Speaker 2:
[33:22] Quite literally, the course of history could have changed completely because Themistocles hangs in there. Then when the Persians come back at the end of 480, with a much bigger land army and fleet than ever before, and this is the moment when the land army will be held by the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, and the fleet will be held including by a Greek fleet, but it's mainly an Athenian fleet because they've got this big, big fleet. Themistocles is the commander of the Athenian fleet at this time. They're held parallel with Thermopylae on land. There's a battle at a place called Artemisium on sea, and then they have to all fall back. The 300 Spartans die, the fleet retreats, and you get to a point where the Greek fleet is in constant possibility of falling completely apart. All the Greek city-states that are coming together are going, you know what, there's no way we can take on the Persian fleet. We might as well just sail for our hometowns and scatter in every man for themselves kind of mentality. And Themistocles is the sort of one voice really that's trying to hold this fleet together, and it ends up sheltering on the island of Salamis, which is just off the coast of Attica. At this point, actually Themistocles has been instrumental, we think, in getting the Athenians to evacuate their city. So they've all fled out of Athens. The Persian king has come down through the whole of mainland Greece, occupied the city of Athens. The Athenians are sitting on the island of Salamis. They're seeing Athens burn, smoke hillowing up in the sky. The fleet's there, and it is on the cusp of just disintegrating.

Speaker 1:
[35:02] And is this where we get that story? You also do a lot of work on Delphi and the prophecies from the oracle at Delphi. This idea of trusting in their wooden wall. And Themistocles is like, that wooden wall, it's the ships. It's not actually a physical wall.

Speaker 2:
[35:17] Yeah, so the Athenians go to consult the great oracle at Delphi, because why wouldn't you?

Speaker 1:
[35:22] Right?

Speaker 2:
[35:22] It's such a kind of crisis, existential moment. And the story is hilarious in that the Athenian ambassadors who go, the first time apparently, they speak to the Pythian priestess, the oracular priestess at Delphi. She just goes, run away, run away. And they go, no, no, we can't take that answer back. Give us another answer. And so you get this answer, this kind of prophetic, sort of ambiguous phrase, trust in your wooden walls. And they have to take that back to Athens, and they have to decide what that is. And some people think it's the old wooden wall that runs around the Acropolis, the great rock at the centre of Athens on which the great sanctuary at the centre of Athens is. And so they think, right, everyone should run up to the Acropolis. And you can understand that because actually in previous times and moments, that's what the Athenians have done. And it's a pretty, pretty well-defendable kind of rock rag, ancient volcanic plug thing, you know, kind of that could be the answer. But Themistocles is the one saying, no, no, no, it's the wooden hulls of our ships, of our fleet. You know, we need to get out of Athens and we need to put our faith in the fact that we can actually use this fleet to turn the course of this war. But all of this fails, right? You appeal to the irracula kind of pronouncements. That's not going to hold the Greek fleet together. Then Themistocles turns to basically threats. And he says, right, if you don't all stay here, I'm going to take the Athenian fleet and we're going to sail to the other side of the Mediterranean and you guys are going to be toast because without us, you really don't have a chance. And that works for a little bit. But then even that doesn't start working. Then he goes, right, okay, what about if I kind of call on all the gods to come and support us? And there's these brilliant things that he does, like sends a ship off to a nearby island that has, supposedly, is the mythical home of a particular god. And there's a couch put on the sort of deck of the ship. You know, the god is invited to come off the island and sit on the couch and be transported back to fight in the line of the Greek fleet. So all of these kind of really kind of mythological, but inspiring sort of motivational sort of things. But even that doesn't work, you know, to hold it together. And so we get to this infamous moment where, around about the 25th of September, 480 BC., Themistocles comes up with a plan, which effectively is this. He sends his slave secretly at night across the Greek lines to the Persian camp, who are now occupying Athens, and the fleet's all there, to get a message to the Persian king to say, Themistocles, the Athenian commander, wants to defect. And as a sign of this defection, I'm going to tell you that the Greek fleet, it all wants to escape and run away. So the best thing you can do is send your Persian fleet right now into the Straits of Salamis to stop them getting away, and then you can crush them once and for all. Signed your best friend, Themistocles. Now, people look at this and go, okay, with the benefit of hindsight, that this turns out to be a brilliant tactical move, and the Greeks win at Salamis and defeat the Persian invasion. You see this as Themistocles, the brilliant tactician, tricking the Persian king into coming into the Straits of Salamis. But you could also see it as Themistocles really wanting to make sure he had options. Because if the Persian king had defeated the Greeks, that kind of sign would have helped Themistocles be spared the wrath of the Persian king because he'd helped the Persian king. So was this a moment in which Themistocles was reading the tea leaves and going, this could go either way, I'm going to make sure that both routes for me are open? Or was this Themistocles brilliantly trapping the Persian king and assuring Greek victory?

Speaker 1:
[39:10] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[39:11] Over to you guys to decide.

Speaker 1:
[39:14] Whichever way he was thinking, it is pretty clever. But at the same time, I guess, even though he is, I mean, today he's seen as the man who wins the Bast of Salamis, does it smear his reputation in the immediate years following?

Speaker 2:
[39:29] Well, this is the curious thing. So the Battle of Salamis turns out to be this great tactical victory because the Persian fleet bought the trick and sailed into the Straits of Salamis. Suddenly in these narrow Straits, their numbers counted for nothing and the Greek fleet could pick them off. So there's this great moment where the Greek fleet defeats the Persian fleet and that turns the tide of the entire war. The Persian king leaves Greece almost immediately. The following year, there's a great land battle at Plataea in 479 when the land army of the Persians is defeated because the Greeks have got the momentum now and then the Persian threat dissipates. Themistocles plays no role in the battle of Plataea. This is this curious rise and fall moment, the first rise and fall if you like, that he's so instrumental at Salamis and yet he's then given nothing. He's silent for the first half really of the 470s. He's just absent.

Speaker 1:
[40:20] Gosh, and do we know why? Did he just get once again, too big for his boots and everyone's just like, right, okay, well done. You won the big battle. Now, remember, it's a democracy. You didn't win it actually, we won the battle.

Speaker 2:
[40:34] I think there's definitely an element of that. We won the battle. I think by this time, everyone is really frustrated with him as a character because he's been sitting there lambasting everyone, shouting at everyone, trying to convince everyone, pushing everyone to stay together. Frankly, I think people are quite happy not to be listening to him. But also because there's a complete change of direction. The sea is no longer the key thing. They've won the battle at sea, now it's about the battle at land, and he's not the premier land general. They've got others that they listen to and do listen to for the battle of the Tiers. So you can see how the spotlight, the Athenian spotlight very quickly shifts off him because the need shifts off him. He's left there in the 470s having to reinvent and find another issue to reclaim the spotlight. And that's when he gets on his city walls gig.

Speaker 1:
[41:25] And so that's the city walls gig. I think we won't delve too much into that because you mentioned it earlier. And also I don't want to cover everything because you mentioned it all in your book. But shall we go to that final act, that final fall of Themistocles in Athens? Because I love this part of the story. It's not he was always against the Persians. And actually what you mentioned about Salamis, that kind of actually look at the two sides of the coin for him going to the Persian king. He isn't always an enemy. How does he actually end up in favour with Persia?

Speaker 2:
[41:55] I mean, so it's one of those great stories. Through the 470s, so no royal post-Salamis, fine. Finds his city wall kind of gig. Everyone kind of, he's at the top of his game again. But clearly by the end of the 470s, he's forgotten that crucial lesson about, don't get too big for your boots. It's about the collective, not the individual. And one of the best moments, which is confirmed by the archaeology, we found this particular temple that he sets up in his kind of home little area of the centre of Athens. He sets up a temple to Artemis, right? Artemis with an epithet, so a particular emphasis on Artemis being worshipped to that temple, Artemis Aristobula, Artemis the good counsellor. Fine, except he goes and puts a bust of himself in the temple precinct. It's not subtle. And in a system whereby it's not about you, it's about the collective, that goes down like a lead balloon.

Speaker 1:
[42:49] Putting yourself as a statue right next to a god.

Speaker 2:
[42:53] Saying, it's my great council that has saved you, the Athenians. And so in 471, there is an ostracism vote. Guess who gets the most votes? It's Themistocles. So he's out of Athens, but he's not out for the count forever because the ostracism exile was supposed to be, we just want you out and gone for a while, but after that, you can come back and it will be fine.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] Contemplate. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[43:17] Just reflect, take a chill. What happens in the next couple of years is the people who really hate him in Athens actually get him involved with a treason plot against the Greeks that also involves a Spartan general. And suddenly he finds himself on trial for treason in Athens, and he doesn't go back, he's in exile. He doesn't go back to Athens to stand trial. He's therefore then tried in absentia, found guilty, and thus sentenced to death. So suddenly things have changed pretty quick. And he is now no way back for him in Athens. And in fact, actually, those people really, and the Athenian people are so fed up with him and so kind of their blood is heated, if you like, for Themistocles at this point, that he tries to find somebody in Greece that will give him a safe home, safe, secure kind of lodging, and no one will touch him. So he's sitting there going, hang on a sec, I was the savior of Greece, and I'm now no longer safe in Greece at all. And he looks at it, and to his credit, he goes, all right, I'll get on a ship for Persia then. He's in his 50s at this point, so I think a 50-year-old man sails across the seas to Persia, he has to somehow make his way safely across the Persian Empire into the court of the Persian king. And he somehow manages to do this, and he stands in front of the Persian king, and it could be the same guy that he tricked at Salamis, or there's a changeover for a Persian king.

Speaker 1:
[44:43] So it could be Xerxes.

Speaker 2:
[44:44] Could be Xerxes, could be his son. Right, kind of what, but one of these, is either I tricked your dad or I tricked you, right? You know, the Persian king, whoever he is, knows Themistocles by name, right? It's that kind of like, there's a bounty on his head kind of thing. And he stands there and he goes, give me a year to learn Persian, so I can speak to you in your own language and talk to you about this, but I can be of use to you. And the Persian king gives him that year. And to his credit, it is said that no Greek had ever learned Persian as good as Themistocles. And as a result, Themistocles went on to have a closer relationship with the Persian king than any Greek had hitherto before him. Was in his inner circle, et cetera. He's given a living, he's given some towns to sort of mini-rule over. That's when he issues his coinage, you know, that we have kind of surviving. So kind of this third act, as you say, we've had this initial rise and fall, Salamis and then Plataea silence. Second rise and fall, kind of city walls and then exile out of Greece and treason and he's kind of sentenced to death. And then this third rise where he becomes this trusted advisor of the Persian king. And the final fall is sort of into the, the fall fifties and Themistocles, basically eventually the Persian king turns around to him and goes, right, I'm now ready to attack Greece again. Time for you to make good on your promise to advise me how to do it properly. And Themistocles at that point sees no way forward in that he, so the sources tell us, doesn't want to actually betray Greece to that degree, despite everything Greece has done to him, and so commits suicide, has the honorable way out. And so the odd thing is that at the end of Themistocles' life when he dies, he's honored by the Persian king, they respect, he respects the decision, he gets a nice tomb built in the Persian Empire, near the towns where he was living. But in Greece, he is still the exiled, condemned, braiter, and no friend of Greece.

Speaker 1:
[46:57] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[46:57] So the question is, how do we go from that to by the end of the 5th century, Thucydides in his great history calling Themistocles the most illustrious Greek of his generation?

Speaker 1:
[47:11] How?

Speaker 2:
[47:12] How can you completely re-tell history? It comes back again to that changing Athenian political system. The other lesson I think that's really come out for me from Themistocles in this book, thinking again for myself or others, my son Wilbert growing up, is that reputations are an odd thing and actually they're made for you by others, not you making them for yourself in many ways. Themistocles at his death is absolutely persona non grata in Greece. But you get into the 450s, so the decade after Themistocles' death and then into the 440s, the decade after, that's the era when Athens' democracy becomes the democracy ruling an Athenian empire. It's the Delian League turned to empire. It's the building of the Parthenon moment. It's Athens at the top of its game. And it's in Athens that realizes it's at the top of its game because of what? Oh, it's fleet, right? Which is able to have that imperial power extending across the Aegean. And so as a result, they take a look back at their history and they realize that this guy, who committed treason apparently and exile from Athens, was the one seemingly responsible for putting Athens on this course. And so very quickly, 415 into the 440s, his reputation is completely rehabilitated in Athens. Whitewash and forget the bit about him heading off to Persia. This is the guy who helped Athens become the supreme empire that she is today. A portrait of Themistocles is hung inside the Parthenon. And it's still there for centuries. So Pausanias, the great tour guide of the second century AD says he sees the kind of portrait. Themistocles' sons are invited back to live in Athens in all splendor. He's risen up as this hero. A tomb is built for him in the Piraeus. And then of course, in the next decade, the 430s, through to the end of the fifth century, that will be when Athens is suddenly fighting the great Peloponnesian, Greek civil war. And what's going to become really helpful to the Athenians at that point is their city walls. Oh, it was Themistocles, yeah, what a great guy he was. So suddenly, the two moments that he then gets so well associated with, the fleet and the city walls, become these mythological reasons for Athens' supremacy and survival. And so by the end of the fifth century, he is completely rehabilitated as a hero. And then that is reconfirmed, if you like, in the following century. In the fourth century, when all of the Athenians in Athens has lost her empire, she's lost the walls, she's lost everything, and they hark back to these glory days of great heroes like Themistocles. And there we have him.

Speaker 1:
[50:08] And that positive legacy of Themistocles has, I mean, by and large, existed and due down to the present day. I guess it's no surprise then that when someone says Themistocles, you will think immediately of Salamis, of being a hero of Athens. And actually, the story of him going to Persia, it's much less well known.

Speaker 2:
[50:29] Or making the absolutely obvious mistake of setting up a temple to his own brilliance. And doing all sorts of things where when you look at it closely, he gets the decisions wrong as much as he gets the decisions right. And yet we've got this story that is so preeminent of him. It's not like Cicero, a great Roman orator. But when he's looking at history, he actually talks about the fact that he's really puzzled by why Themistocles has the reputation that he does. Because why are the Athenians sort of honoring this guy who did two things in two moments more than they're honoring people who created entire systems that benefited the Athenians for decades? So there are people who look at this and go, ah, this is a bit odd. But it is an oddity that is explained by understanding what happens post-Themistocles' death and what the Athenians need and the heroes they need in the decades after he's died.

Speaker 1:
[51:27] Hashtag justice for Aristides, I do not stand for this and the like. Michael, this has been absolutely brilliant. I'm guessing that's what you'd want to leave the reader of your book thinking about the rises and the falls, and there is so much more to this figure's character.

Speaker 2:
[51:43] Yeah, particularly to this character, absolutely. Seeing him in the round, seeing him as an individual, understanding the world that changed around him as he grew up, which actually made so much of what he did possible, alongside the extraordinary strokes of good luck he had, and the fact that even then, at the end of the day, his life, when it ends in Greece, he's persona non grata, and it's that story afterwards, that kind of re-evaluation and re-telling of history that rises him up to becoming the great hero we know today. And as a result, to be both reassured that life is full of ups and downs, everyone's is, and reputations are a very odd and tricky thing indeed.

Speaker 1:
[52:24] Wise words to end this on. Michael, last but certainly not least, your book, all about the life and legend of Themistocles, it is called.

Speaker 2:
[52:31] Themistocles, the rise and fall, or rises and falls, rises and falls of Athens' naval statesman, is out now with the OU Press.

Speaker 1:
[52:38] Michael, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Speaker 2:
[52:40] It's been great to be here. Thanks so much, Justin.

Speaker 1:
[52:46] Well, there you go, there was Professor Michael Scott talking through the story of Themistocles, his rises and falls. What a fascinating figure. Thank you so much for listening to the episode. Michael will be back in due course for a follow up episode on another great story, a place in ancient Greece, one of the most fascinating sanctuaries ever built in antiquity. That is to come in the near future. Can't wait to share that episode with you. But in the meantime, once again, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you've been enjoying The Ancients, then please make sure you're following the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us. You'll be doing us a big favor. If you'd be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we'd really appreciate that. I would certainly very much appreciate it. Now, don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.