transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:05] My wife told me that she wasn't comfortable with me talking to this coworker anymore. She made threats that she was going to leave me, that she would try to keep me from seeing my daughter.

Speaker 2:
[00:17] Hold on, are you... Did you date this person? Are you sleeping with this person? No. Why are these threats so caustic? Hey, what's up, what's up? This is John with The Dr. John Delony Show. Talking to real people, going through real challenges in their lives, in the lives of their spouses, their kids, their mental and emotional health, whatever you got going on in your life, pull up a seat, and we're gonna figure out what's the next right move. Click the link in the show notes if you wanna be on the show, you can fill out the form. And if you don't know how to go to show notes like me, then ask a young person in your life, because they know what show notes actually are. Let's go to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and talk to Dawson. Dude, he has a creak. What's up, Dawson?

Speaker 1:
[01:08] Hey, John, how you doing?

Speaker 2:
[01:10] I'm good, brother. How are you, man?

Speaker 1:
[01:12] Oh, I've been better.

Speaker 2:
[01:14] Wow, what you got going on, brother?

Speaker 1:
[01:17] So, I guess my question that I have for you is, how do I deal with my wife's controlling behavior in double standards? Whoa.

Speaker 2:
[01:29] Oh, man. What's going on?

Speaker 1:
[01:32] So, my wife and I have had several arguments over the past several years that kind of always revolve around this female co-worker of mine. I knew her before my wife. Well, I should probably also add that my wife and I both work for the same company. So, we see each other every day. And then, so, after we started dating, my wife told me that she wasn't comfortable with me talking to this co-worker anymore. She made threats that she was going to leave me, that she would try to keep me from seeing my daughter if I kept talking to her.

Speaker 2:
[02:17] Hold on. Are you, do you ever, like, did you date this person? Are you sleeping with this person? Why are these threats so caustic?

Speaker 1:
[02:27] That's what I've been trying to figure out. I've only had a professional relationship with this co-worker. We've never hung out. We've only texted briefly a handful of time. She's in a committed relationship. It's just always just been just professional.

Speaker 2:
[02:47] Okay. So let me jump in here. So I'm trying to get context and I know there's another side to this with your, I'm assuming you're saying double standards. I'm assuming your wife is involved in something else. There's been people over the years that my wife has met and she said, watch out for this one. Right? And I've always, always taken that to heart. Actually, that's not true. The times I haven't taken that to heart, it's not been good. And so if your wife said, hey, I know this person, I've worked with this person too, not a safe person to be around for any number of reasons. Has it been hard for you to go, okay, cool, got you? My relationship with you, my wife, is more important than this? Or has it felt out of left field? Or you're like, no, like this, like, are you digging your heels in? Tell me how, how this dynamic is going. Cause it sounds strange to me that your wife would just meet somebody, see they all work together, like we all do. And then be like, if you don't stop talking to her, I'm taking away your kid, I'm divorcing you, I'm leaving. That seems like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] Yeah, that's, that's what just really blindsided me. I just, I don't understand who she's never really talked to her.

Speaker 2:
[04:01] Talk directly into the phone for me, buddy.

Speaker 1:
[04:03] Sorry, she's never really talked, had any conversations with her. She's, she's just always from the start, just said to me that she doesn't really like her. But she's never had any real reason that she's given me to say why she doesn't like her.

Speaker 2:
[04:18] So what's the other side of this coin?

Speaker 1:
[04:21] So, after she told me, you know, you got to stop talking to her, I, you know, respected, you know, our relationship. I said, okay, I'll stop talking to her. So a year and a half goes by, still working with this coworker, we see each other, but we're not talking anymore. So it's just very awkward. And during this time, my wife has started talking to other men at work. She has one coworker who's in his 50s. He's married, has kids, you know, they're growing up, kids, you know, in college. And she's always talking to him, always texting him, says she's her good friend, says, you know, I guess they met before I knew her. So she's just saying they're really good friends and he helps her deal with any type of question she has about, you know, I don't know, day-to-day life or things. It just kind of presses me because I was like, why are you going to him instead of me for one? But then she just would always go back to, he's just a good friend. There's nothing, you know, there, you know, romantically. I was like, okay, fine, whatever. I'm not really the jealous type. So I kind of just left it at that. And then our daughter was getting baptized, and she was insistent on having this guy that she knew from high school. They're good friends. I met him. He seems like an okay guy. She just kept saying, I want this guy to be our daughter's godfather. And I said, okay, fine. And then later on, I kind of discovered that she and the godfather had dated in high school. She never bothered to tell me this. And she actually cheated on him. They broke up and then ended up getting back together later on. And then obviously they slept together and but she didn't want to tell me any of this. So meanwhile, I'm not talking to my co-worker for over a year and a half and she's still in contact with an old ex-boyfriend and talking to other guys at work.

Speaker 2:
[07:03] Where else? So this situation feels huge. Where else in your marriage? How long have y'all been married by the way?

Speaker 1:
[07:13] I guess technically, not even six months.

Speaker 2:
[07:16] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[07:18] We met four years ago. We found out she was pregnant after only four months of dating. Then we just recently got married.

Speaker 2:
[07:31] Okay. Where else do y'all, are you experiencing what you're calling double standards? And I'm thinking of things like her yelling at you for, or being mad at you for, leaving your clothes around your new house that you share together, but her clothes are all over the place. Where else is there double standards in small ways like that? If any.

Speaker 1:
[08:08] I don't know if there's really any like small ones. It's just always mainly about her having a lot of guy friends and then her not allowing me to have even really one female friend. I guess that's what's been the big issue here. I don't really be a whole lot of little ones.

Speaker 2:
[08:32] The bigger issue to me is y'all don't have a way to communicate together.

Speaker 1:
[08:40] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[08:40] Y'all don't have a roadmap for conflict. Y'all have a roadmap for connected communication together. There is a caustic, it's going to be my way and you'll just do what I say.

Speaker 1:
[08:57] That's how it's been since pretty much my daughter, our daughter was born, she's just very... Why did you really... I wanted things to work out, I thought things would get better and they just progressively have gotten worse. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[09:20] It appears to me your wife does not like the life she signed up for. And she's holding you responsible for the choices that she has co-created together with you.

Speaker 1:
[09:37] I mean, she tells, she has told me that she does resent me and she doesn't respect me and that she's embarrassed to be my wife.

Speaker 2:
[09:48] Well, bro, lead with that next time. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[09:57] It's just, I just feel like there's no winning because anytime I bring up something that bothers me, she takes it as like, I'm leaving you, I'm divorcing. You know, that's always been the big threat.

Speaker 2:
[10:13] Okay. So let me reframe it. She's already left you. Y'all still may share a house. Y'all will forever share a daughter. She's left you. The question is, A, can y'all get together and rebuild something awesome? The problem with that analogy that I'm always using, you got to rebuild your marriage, is it does take both of you. And there are a lot of times when one person is like, dude, like we got off to a bad foot, a bad start. We've been doing this for a decade and the tower has fallen over. That was our marriage and well, can we rebuild a new one? But one person's like, I will, I'm willing to do the work to rebuild. And the other person's like, no, it's your fault. It fell over. I'm not doing anything. And that's what it sounds, it sounds like where you are.

Speaker 1:
[11:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:05] And so, here's what I want to challenge you to do, okay? I want you to challenge you to make a list of what must be true. Like, I need a wife that I can have honest, hard conversations with. I want a wife that will spend the rest of her life learning how to see and know and celebrate me. And yes, challenge me to. I will make that same commitment. And then I want you, and this is a strange one. I want you to become, not through manifestation nonsense or not through, like, chanting to yourself in the mirror, but through stone cold action. I want you to become a man that you respect. I want you to become a man that your daughter respects. Okay?

Speaker 1:
[12:10] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[12:10] And that means treating everybody, your wife included, and your wife has said some pretty awful things to you. I'm embarrassed to be your wife. You gross me out. I don't respect you. Like, all that's pretty gnarly things to come back from when someone looks you in the eye and tells you that. Someone who's like, dragging around her ex-boyfriend and lying to you about it, and not only dragging around her ex-boyfriend and lying to you about it, but integrating that person, that other man into the forever life of your daughter, someone who is holding herself to a different standard than you in the workplace, like, all that, man, like, I'm going to treat you with dignity and respect while I tell you, here's what must be true for this marriage to continue. But it sounds, bro, she is looking for a, she is looking for any reason to solidify this marriage is over. And it sounds like she's of the type of coward that wants to force your hand so that she can walk around the office and say, this guy left his daughter, look, I left me, and I can become a martyr in this thing too.

Speaker 1:
[13:18] That's what I've kind of got the feeling of because she'll always just keep bringing herself and saying that we're getting a divorce, but then she'll tell me if she wants me to go and file.

Speaker 2:
[13:32] Have you looked in the eye and said, I will not file for divorce. If you want to get divorced, I'll honor it, but you go file the paperwork.

Speaker 1:
[13:40] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[13:41] What did she say?

Speaker 1:
[13:43] She won't do anything. She just gets quiet.

Speaker 2:
[13:48] And that's the definition of cowardice right there. And I'm sorry that you're having to deal with it. You have a choice to make, brother. Do you want to go ahead and dig your heels in and say, I'm not doing this. I'm not going to be the person who dissolves this marriage. I want to continue to know that for me, the guy I look in the mirror, becoming a man that I respect is, I've fought for this thing till the very last day. Or is looking yourself in the mirror and respecting yourself, saying, my daughter is living through my wife's firestorm right now. And the greatest gift I can give this entire house, myself included, is I will, you don't have the courage to do it. You just have the courage to set fire to everything. You don't have the courage to come tell the people to get out of the building. I'll do that. But that sounds like your choice, man. Your wife is done with the marriage.

Speaker 1:
[14:47] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[14:49] And now it's just a matter of who's going to sign the papers. And it might be that you have to deal with the blowback of her going around the office saying, oh my gosh, my husband left me. He left his daughter. What a scumbag. Maybe. My guess is-

Speaker 1:
[15:04] She's already done that.

Speaker 2:
[15:05] Well.

Speaker 1:
[15:06] Yeah. She's already texting family members saying that I'm basically cheating or just because I'm on the wrong side, say hi to this coworker.

Speaker 2:
[15:19] She sounds incredibly unstable.

Speaker 1:
[15:23] I mean, she'll call me toxic and say, I'm crazy for bringing up things that I see. Like, I see a coworker texting you at nine o'clock at night. And then she'll just be like, well, I'm going to block him and I'll be miserable at work just like you are. She'll just say stuff like that.

Speaker 2:
[15:44] Well, cool. Let her know that in court, all of her text messages become part of the record.

Speaker 1:
[15:49] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[15:50] And all of her Facebook exchanges and her WhatsApps, and they can go get all that stuff now. It's all going to be part of the record. As will your text messages with this mysterious coworker of yours or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[16:05] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:06] But what you wanted to have never happened.

Speaker 1:
[16:14] Correct.

Speaker 2:
[16:14] And you get to decide what happens next, man. But I would frame everything from, as the man of this amazing young daughter, can I look myself in the eyes and do I respect what I'm doing next?

Speaker 1:
[16:34] I just want what's best for my daughter, and right now, I just feel like this is just going down a path that's not gonna benefit her at all anymore.

Speaker 2:
[16:43] It's already down that path.

Speaker 1:
[16:45] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[16:47] And y'all getting divorced, and your wife getting half custody of her, and having your daughter bathe in this. I mean, you made a child with this person, so this is, and half of your child is this person. Like, what you can do moving forward is become a stable, sturdy presence for her for the next 20 or 30 years, but you're playing a really long game right now. Because you made a human with somebody who treats you like crap, and does not want to live in reality. And so I want to be a person who, I remember telling some guy that I was sitting with behind closed doors, like, who just got decimated, I think grossly and unfairly in a divorce proceeding. And I said, all right, then you have the choice to make, you're gonna show up every week or every month for the next one year, two year, five years, 10 years, so that one day when the light comes on, for your, in this case, his son, when the light comes on, will you be able to be somebody that you were, you respected and it's gonna be tiring and exhausting and heartbreaking, all those things will be true. Those feelings will all be real. But can I be emotionally mature? Can I be strong? Can I be respectable enough to go do the next right thing even despite all these big, heavy feelings? And that's what adults do.

Speaker 1:
[18:28] Yeah, I just, I don't feel like myself anymore.

Speaker 2:
[18:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[18:34] No, it's been beaten down too much and...

Speaker 2:
[18:37] Okay, then let's, then let's rise up. A rise up sounds dramatic. Let's, let's stand up and let's write down, here's what must be true. Here's what I'm worth. And I'm going to be respectable. I'm going to respect my self moving forward with my decisions and my actions. Because at the end of the day, brother, that's, that's literally all you can control here. That's it. What are you going to do next? And she can text your family and friends. My guess is this type of person, her coworkers know. And if they don't, God bless them. But her coworkers know. And you can't help her bombing text messages and trying to, when she goes to court and trying to like sue you for, man, you can't control any of that. You can just control, I'm going to do the next best right thing for me and for my daughter. And what your daughter needs right now is some sort of steadiness in this crazy storm she's been dropped in the middle of. And for everybody out there who's in a really messy, gnarly, twisted up relationship, marriage won't just straighten that all out. It will just magnify and amplify what already exists. It's not the get out of jail card. And so dealing with the realities of your relationship right now is really important before you sign a legal document. It's really important before you make a human and y'all skip that step. So here we are, brother. So thanks for calling me. I don't have any good, like great, like patchy on the back advice other than it's time for you to stand up tall and say, I'm going to take decisive, respectful, dignified action starting now. We come back, I'm going to talk to a couple who is wondering, is it possible to change after infidelity? Let's talk about Helix mattresses. For years, I thought sleep was for losers. So I just kept pushing and pushing and ignoring sleep. And of course I crashed because you can't ignore sleep. When you're exhausted, everything feels heavier, harder and more complex. Deep sleep is when your brain resets and when your body does all of the work to clean out the junk so you can be ready to rock and roll the next day. When I finally started taking my sleep seriously, everything in my life changed for the better. And one of the big changes I made was switching to sleeping on a Helix mattress. I've had mine for a couple of years now and I track my sleep and Helix mattresses have made a huge difference in my deep sleep and in my REM sleep. Helix can make a difference for you too. Get online and take their sleep quiz. It takes like two minutes and they will match you with just the right mattress for you for how you actually sleep. Helix mattresses ship straight to your door and you get a 120 night sleep trial and it's backed by a limited lifetime warranty. Go to helixsleep.com/delony and get 20% off site wide during their spring savings event. That's helixsleep.com/delony for 20% off and be sure to tell Helix you heard about their amazing mattresses right here on this show. With Helix, better sleep starts right now. All right, I'm going to bring on James first in Newark, New Jersey. James, you there?

Speaker 1:
[22:03] Hey, Dr. John, how are you?

Speaker 2:
[22:04] All right, got you, brother. I'm doing good. All right, let's bring on Laura. Hey, Laura, you there?

Speaker 1:
[22:09] Yes, I am.

Speaker 2:
[22:09] All right, awesome. So, are y'all in the same location right now or different places?

Speaker 1:
[22:15] Different places.

Speaker 2:
[22:16] Okay. All right, cool. So, I don't know much about what this call is about. So, James, you're first. So, go ahead and let it rip.

Speaker 1:
[22:25] All right, Laura and I have been married about six years, two small kids, and basically the entire time, I have just been a horrible person.

Speaker 2:
[22:38] What does that mean?

Speaker 1:
[22:40] I've been a horrible partner, not present. I haven't shown up. I've only cared about myself. Like I said, we have two small kids. I've just been a horrible father.

Speaker 2:
[22:55] Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. You're using big words. Like, be specific for me. You haven't shown up. What does that mean? You've been out at the bars and out at the club. You just sit there on the couch and watch TV while your wife is trying to manage both of these kids. Like, what does that mean?

Speaker 1:
[23:12] I do work quite a lot. And sometimes, you know, I have to work long hours. And then when I'm not working, it could just be hanging out with my friends or, you know, the second part of this, as far as changing to save our marriage, does have to do with affairs. And that's where being a horrible partner and husband comes in. And it's something that I have dealt with way before I met my wife, that I have always been unfaithful to whatever partner I was with. I would constantly seek external validation from other people, other than my significant other, whether it be texting or FaceTiming or Facebook messaging. It just, it always happened in every relationship I was in. And unfortunately, in this relationship with my wife, I did physically cheat with a co-worker.

Speaker 2:
[24:20] Just one?

Speaker 1:
[24:21] Just one.

Speaker 2:
[24:22] Okay. Are you committed to that story? Is that the full truth?

Speaker 1:
[24:26] That is the full truth.

Speaker 2:
[24:28] Okay. Okay.

Speaker 1:
[24:31] And I just, this all came to light mid December when my wife found messages on an iPad because this is not like it was in the first time she found out moment. She's called me several times throughout our relationship, whether it was something stupid or inappropriate conversations. And we've had the conversations about it. And every time I was caught, I'd apologize and I would tell her how sorry I was and how it would never happen again. Each time, it just progressively got worse. I would just hide it better. I would sneak better. So this last incident, when she called me in mid December, we were at that point, I believe. We are legally separated now.

Speaker 2:
[25:35] Okay. Did you pull the trigger or did she?

Speaker 1:
[25:40] She did. For security, for herself and for our family.

Speaker 2:
[25:46] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[25:47] Because she's afraid that I can't make good conscious decisions and I don't blame her.

Speaker 2:
[25:57] Yeah. Laura, tell me where you are.

Speaker 3:
[26:02] Yeah. So to clarify some of the things that he was saying, when he says he does his own thing, he does the stuff that he would still do as if he was a teenager. He would, if he wanted a dirt bike, he would rebuild a dirt bike. He would hang out with his buddies or whatever he needed to do, just made sure that he done first before he was ever able to help me pick up the kids or do anything with the kids. This has been going on our entire relationship. I made peace with that part of the relationship that I was going to take on 100 percent of our life and I made peace with that. Not saying I wasn't resentful, but definitely made peace with that. Where I'm struggling is I feel that I have let him cross my boundaries so many times. Like I said, I've caught him multiple times doing this. Every time I tell him no more, if I catch it again, he talks me into, manipulates me into saying, oh, well, it's really not that bad and it's not really what you're seeing. But it's come closer to home. Now, it's been with my friend, his, he was talking to one of his friend's wife, inappropriately our neighbors, affecting our children. So it's really just hitting home more.

Speaker 2:
[27:25] Man, that's what a mess. So how can I help? What are you all aiming to do here?

Speaker 3:
[27:36] So he's telling me that he's changed. He's now going to church. He's going to therapy. He listens to your show now. He promises me this is never going to happen again. And I just really don't believe it. Because we've just been down this road before. I feel like it's just a toxic cycle. And so I guess my question for you is, can people actually change? Can cheaters actually stop cheating? Or is this just a toxic cycle in a relationship that we both have to recognize as the relationship is not a healthy one for both of us?

Speaker 2:
[28:12] I mean, at the 30,000 foot level, yes. I would not do this job if I didn't believe that everyone, not everyone, that most people are capable of change, that this is a word that has religious overtones to it, but I mean it in a bigger way that there's not redemption for folks. I believe in that. In this particular situation, James, you've got some demons, brother, right? Yeah. And the road ahead would be very challenging for both of you. Is it possible? 100%. Is it going to happen overnight because you went to church a few times and went to therapy a couple of times? Absolutely not. And it takes an overhaul of, I guess the best way I could say this is, it takes you guys, both of you recognizing our marriage is over. It's in ash. It's over. Do we want to rebuild something completely new from the floor up or not? And the couples who make that turn and work together to learn all new skills, all new ways we relate, new connected communication tools, new connected conflict tools, dude, you will build something that will stand the test of time and will change your family tree. But anything short of that becomes the same loop-de-loop cycle, as you said, Laura.

Speaker 3:
[29:46] What are the signs that somebody is changing? If I was your daughter, what would you tell me to do if this was happening to your daughter?

Speaker 2:
[29:57] My wisdom for my daughter will be, I hope I have raised you in a way where you know that no matter what decision you make, I will be right here with you.

Speaker 3:
[30:08] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[30:09] And I would tell her the road ahead, if you want to make this thing work, is very, very hard for both of you. Because my guess is, James, tell me if I'm wrong. And by the way, I'm happy to be wrong on this one. Laura, maybe James tells you, hey, I'm going to go do something. I need to go be at work a little bit longer. And your response to that is hard to hear. Because him having to work a little bit later changes what your picture of the day looked like.

Speaker 4:
[30:46] Correct.

Speaker 2:
[30:47] And he might have learned early on, I'm just not going to tell her.

Speaker 4:
[30:53] Right.

Speaker 2:
[30:53] And so it might mean that you've got to go through a period of opening your hands up, opening your arms up a little bit more, being softer to when things actually change, because they do. And James, you're going to have to deal with the demons, man. You've been treating people as though they are disposable. Sounds like your whole life, huh? Where does that come from? What's the root of that, man?

Speaker 1:
[31:24] I think just...

Speaker 2:
[31:25] Talking to the phone for me.

Speaker 1:
[31:28] I think just... Always having a problem with the person I see in the mirror.

Speaker 2:
[31:32] How come? Why don't you like James?

Speaker 1:
[31:37] Not exactly sure yet. That's something I'm working through with my therapist. So I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Speaker 2:
[31:46] And so here's what I want you all to do, okay? I want you all to... It sounds like you all can be in the same room. Can you all share a meal together?

Speaker 1:
[31:56] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[31:56] Okay. And here's what I want to happen. In the next 48 hours, and Laura, this is going to take some homework on your part, and this is going to take some homework on your part, James. I want you all to both map out an ideal, a true separation. You all aren't really separated right now. Right now, Laura is punishing James. And that can't... I mean, that's not going to get you all where you want to be. That's not going to get you the safety inside your chest that you want. And James is always going to be like dance monkey dance. He's going to try to be performing for you. Right? So that he can get the carrot at the end of the stick. I can get to see the kids. I can get to see you. I can get a hug. I can tell you another sob story or whatever. And so like coming up, both of you draft one and it could be a week. It could be a month. I want you all to draft a true, grown up, we're going to act like adult separation. For seven days, I'm going to go spend the night with these two guys. I'm going to go stay at my mom's house. I'm going to stay at my dad's house. I'm going to stay in a hotel, like whatever that looks like. Or we just simply do not have the money. Here's what it's going to look like inside our house. Separation is we're not going to talk about the relationship stuff. I don't want to hear your therapy. Like we're going to just simply co-manage this house for seven days. And at the end of the seventh, I want y'all to negotiate, when you come down with your idea, James, and your idea, Laura, I want y'all to both negotiate that and to sign it, like spit shake on it. Like this is, we're going to hold to this. And James, by the way, you're feeling like a Broadway actor right now. And this will give you some peace too. Cause you haven't dropped your shoulders yet in a long time. You've dropped your head, but not your shoulders. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Okay. And then a key part of this seven day exercises, we will have on the calendar, the date, the time and the location of where we're going to meet up, whatever cafe, whatever diner, whatever, whatever, where we're going to meet up and we're going to talk about how each other's doing. And that's you, Laura. You're going to hand him, if you want to keep going, seven days of here's what must be true this week to begin slowly rebuilding trust if you want to still do that. And it might be, Laura, you're like, I'm not ready even for that yet. Cool. And James, you're going to go, cool, I'm going to keep becoming the most respectable version of myself I can possibly be. I can possibly create.

Speaker 1:
[34:30] OK, I can do that.

Speaker 2:
[34:31] You get what I'm saying?

Speaker 4:
[34:34] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:36] And at some point, y'all will circle back up and probably end up in a in a counselor's office together to handle dynamics, to handle conflict, to handle all that. I'm going to give you right now before before we go. I want to give you a framework. Either of y'all taking notes?

Speaker 4:
[34:54] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:55] OK, I want you to write this down. OK?

Speaker 4:
[34:57] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[34:58] I want this to guide the conversation you'll have about a separation of seven days, of 14 days, of 30 days. Don't go beyond 30 days because then it starts getting real wonky. But here is the framework I want you to use. OK? Here is what I see happening. Here's what happened. Number one. Number two. Here's the story I made up about what happened. Number three. Here's how I feel. Number four. Here's what must be true. Here's what I want to have happen next. And both of you use that framework. So when she says, James, I actually don't want you to leave, I want you here. Cool. Or I want you to go stay somewhere for seven days. And you can say, all right, what just happened is you're kicking me out for seven days. The story I'm making up is this marriage is over. You'll never love me again, whatever. That makes me feel empty, hollow, embarrassed, ashamed of all the things I've done, all that stuff. Here's what I want to have happen next. I want you to promise me you'll be at our lunch in seven days. You get what I'm saying? And here's what that exercise does. It lets us own our stories, our feelings and our wishes for what happens next. And then we open our hands and hope to God, the other person will love us enough to follow through. And Laura, you have to decide, I want to be a wife, not a mom.

Speaker 1:
[36:29] Correct.

Speaker 2:
[36:30] And I know you've probably been forced in that role, like you said. And James, you have to decide, I'm going to stop being a little boy. I'm going to be a grown man who honors my wife and loves my kids. And the best way I can love my kids is by triply honoring and loving my wife well.

Speaker 1:
[36:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] And I'm telling you both, I made it real simple. This will be a exercise in hell. And I think you're both worth it if you want to do it.

Speaker 3:
[36:56] Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[36:58] James, anything else?

Speaker 1:
[37:00] No, thank you for your time. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[37:02] Do I think change can happen? Yes. Is change in this kind of situation hard? Unimaginably hard. Has it been done? Yep. I'm with people all the time who have put in the work. Is it worth it? I think there is nothing else on the planet worth more than getting yourself right and getting your marriage whole. So it's worth the work, but man, it's hard. Man, it's hard. Thanks for the call. Thanks for being honest and brave. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress does not just damage our bank accounts. It can also take a toll on our mental health, our emotional health, and our relationships. Money worries cause anxiety and they're one of the leading sources of conflict for couples. I know this personally. My wife and I struggled for years because of financial stress. Listen, therapy can help even with money. Therapy is not about financial advice, but it can help you build healthier ways of coping and give you strategies to communicate about money without more fighting. To do all of this, check out my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the United States. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. If the first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch at any time for no additional cost. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Visit betterhelp.com/delony to get 10 percent off your first month. That's betterhelp.com/delony. All right, let's go out to Dallas and talk to Mary. Hey, Mary, what's up?

Speaker 4:
[38:45] Hi, thanks for taking my call.

Speaker 2:
[38:47] Of course, thanks for jumping on here last minute. What's going on?

Speaker 4:
[38:51] I'm a little nervous, so sorry in advance if I'm flustered.

Speaker 2:
[38:55] Oh, you're all good.

Speaker 4:
[38:55] I just had to run to escape my kids. So.

Speaker 2:
[39:00] I may have had to do that before too, so.

Speaker 4:
[39:03] Yeah. Okay. So just to keep my thoughts in order, I wrote my primary concern in some context, if you don't mind if I just read that really quick.

Speaker 2:
[39:13] Go for it.

Speaker 4:
[39:14] So primarily, I'm dealing with losing respect for my husband due to his lack of consistency and follow through when times get tough and we're in a season of conflict. So for some context, we've been together 12 years. Most of the relationship, we've kind of just coasted through without any major conflict. Things have been good. And then four years of marriage and two kids later, we decided to become intentional about building a better relationship and getting to the root of the repeat fights that we get into. But the problem is we never seem to make it past the discussion phase and into true resolution. We seem to fight about the same things over and the fights follow the same pattern and end with him promising to change and wanting to change and then things are good for a little bit and then they slip and we're back at square one. And then on top of that, during our conversations, things seem to get derailed because we have common communication issues. And so I'm often left feeling unseen and disrespected. And I just feel like we're at an impasse and it's leading me to start losing respect for him. The more we continue to have to fight about the same things. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[40:43] So when it comes to conflict over the same things over and over, I have good news and bad news. Okay. The bad news is the Gottman's report that 69% of marital conflict is what they call pervasive. It will always be there. And there is an element to making peace with it. Now I'm going to caveat the heck out of this. So hang on. Okay. You don't make peace with fights about abuse or showing up or like saying, hey, I want some help with this with our kids and it being met with, oh, well, I'm just too busy in my video games. That's not what we're talking about. So give me some examples of things that are constantly showing up.

Speaker 4:
[41:44] So I think I used to be the person that would get mad that he folded the towels wrong.

Speaker 2:
[41:50] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[41:51] But I will say we are past that point.

Speaker 2:
[41:55] Like we can celebrate, you know what, the towels are folded.

Speaker 4:
[41:58] Yes, exactly. And I have let go a lot of control over little things like that. But I think the place where I struggle is seeing him not, I'm trying to find the best way to put this, but I feel like a lot of the times I don't see any effort or intention behind his actions. Like I feel like he just floats through life and is along for the ride. An analogy that I really resonated with was, I am this ocean with all this chaos and things underneath the surface, and he's just a boat on the top along for the ride. Oftentimes, that's good because he is really agreeable, and he's not an angry man, and he's an amazing father and husband, but I am stuck with feeling like I'm in control all the time.

Speaker 2:
[42:59] And do you ever, over the four years y'all have been married and the years before that when y'all dated, in times when he quote unquote took control, how did you meet that? You're not doing it right? Why don't you do it like this? I can't believe you picked this place over that place. Why do you fold the towels like that? In his early on, the efforts that he put forth to control something, where they met with relief, and I'll think, God, you're driving? Or they met with, you need to control better and differently?

Speaker 4:
[43:35] I would say in the very beginning, probably the latter. But to be honest, there hasn't been a lot of instances where I can remember him taking full ownership or control of things.

Speaker 2:
[43:51] What's a thing or two that you would love for him to take ownership of?

Speaker 4:
[43:58] I feel like I have done a lot of work to give him grace and to not nitpick every time he leaves something around or doesn't clean something thoroughly. But at the same time, it often feels like is him not being aware of things and him not just looking around and doing something adds more work to my plate and it feels like I'm his mom. It doesn't feel like a partnership.

Speaker 2:
[44:31] Yeah. But I 100 percent understand what you're saying. No question about it. The challenge though is those patterns are often co-created. Not always. Sometimes you just have burnouts, you smoke weed, want to play video games, and their poor wives are just holding everything together. Doesn't sound like him, right?

Speaker 4:
[44:50] No, not at all.

Speaker 2:
[44:51] Other times there are wives who just beat their husbands down. They're like, you know what? I'm out. I'll be here because I said I would be here. I'm going to be a good dad to these kids the best I can. You tell me to do something, I will do it every time. I don't want to say that we're there. But often in the middle, there is a, why aren't you stressing about this as much as I'm stressing about it? And what you're trying to do there is make him care about a thing as much as you do. And he doesn't. And so either the thing that you're worried about, the piles, the whatever, just simply isn't that big of a deal. Or it's your problem to solve. Or we need to have the deeper conversation, which is when there are dishes in the sink and you see how tired I am, I want you to know me well enough to know the greatest way that I could be loved right now is if you go knock out those dishes and go ahead and start a load of laundry. Have you all had that depth of a conversation yet?

Speaker 4:
[46:01] We have and one of the things that we've done is created a whole list of tasks that need to be done around the house and we've assigned them to each other and so on the surface level, the tasks themselves are not really an issue anymore. It's more so like him being able to shut down and not take care of something and then me feeling like I need to pick up the slack or me feeling like he needs to turn to me to make every decision or turn to me to ask the question instead of just figuring things out on his own.

Speaker 2:
[46:46] Fair and two things to play here. One, my guess is and I may be wrong, my guess is this is a learned behavior from him, very Pavlovian. He has learned, if I go do the towels, if I go clean the bathroom, I'm probably going to do it wrong.

Speaker 4:
[47:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[47:04] So I'm just going to let her tell me when she wants me to do it. Man, when she says it, I'll do everything on that list. Let me put it this way, people generally, not always, but generally go where they are celebrated. And so. Man, and let me say the second thing here is a lot of what you're saying, you've prefaced almost everything you've told me about him with, I feel that, I feel that, I feel that. And the challenge I want you to wade through is, I feel this, good. That feeling is important to acknowledge and to metabolize. And then we have to ask ourself, is this feeling true? Right. I feel like he's doing all the tasks, he's just not doing them with the right spirit. Well, now, I mean, then we get into a moving finish line, and what we're trying to do is I want him to be as concerned and anxious about this place as I am. And what that means is that's a big alarm system that says, oh, I need to go deal with why I am overwhelmed, why I am anxious about things in this house, with our kids, with our finances, with the cleanliness, with whatever you're wrestling with. Because here's a guy next to me that's got peace. And I don't want to get mad at him for bebopping through life if he's done the things that we agreed make me feel seen and known. Because now we're getting into, he's not doing them with the right attitude or the right spirit or the right heart. And it becomes more and more amorphous. And we're just trying to get someone to feel the same thing we're feeling. And our feelings are our feelings. When y'all sat down and said, okay, here's the task list. And you said, here's what must be done around the house. You just got to do these things. And here's what I need to feel seen and known. Did you also ask him, how can I see and know you better?

Speaker 4:
[49:07] Yeah, we've had that conversation.

Speaker 2:
[49:09] What does he say?

Speaker 4:
[49:11] He wants me to ask how his day has been and give him more hugs. He's a very, I think simple in that way. And I do do that. I do make an effort to do that. But I think it can be hard for me to do those things when I'm feeling emotionally disconnected. So I think that's kind of where I struggle. I think you hit the nail on the head. I have a lot of my own anxieties and things. And I feel oftentimes a lot alone in my own head, in my own craziness. And then that causes me to feel disconnected from everything and from him. And so then it's hard for me to give him what he needs, which makes him feel disconnected.

Speaker 2:
[50:10] And it just creates a weird dance. Yeah. And Mary, as a guy who has struggled my whole life with anxiety, what you just said resonates with me so powerfully. What are some things that make you anxious?

Speaker 4:
[50:28] Oh my gosh, everything.

Speaker 2:
[50:30] Name me a couple.

Speaker 4:
[50:32] My kids.

Speaker 2:
[50:33] Okay. Their health, their safety, their education, all of it?

Speaker 4:
[50:38] All of the above.

Speaker 2:
[50:39] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[50:42] My family, dynamics in my family, the political climate, my own health, my relationship now.

Speaker 2:
[51:06] As a guy who avoided it for years and almost burned his marriage to the ground, can I just please implore you to go ahead directly through the anxiety and go see somebody?

Speaker 4:
[51:18] So I do see a therapist.

Speaker 2:
[51:21] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[51:23] And- For how long? I've seen her for a few months now. Okay. And we're still, I would say, in the beginning stages of setting a relationship and that kind of thing. And I also am on some anti-anxiety medications that have helped me through the postpartum phase. So I am confident that I'm heading in the right direction for my own personal healing. I've picked up hobbies and I'm trying to do everything I can.

Speaker 2:
[52:04] How's your sleep?

Speaker 4:
[52:08] It's okay. My husband does all the overnights.

Speaker 2:
[52:12] Okay. How is your... Do you have any close friends?

Speaker 4:
[52:22] I do, but not in person. I don't live close to people, so it's a lot of texting.

Speaker 2:
[52:29] Let me say this. Your body would be failing you. If it let you exhale inside your own skin, knowing you don't have anybody you can call in the middle of the night that will show up to be with your kids. And I could go on and on and on. Here's what I want you to hear me say. If you have a husband who will sit down and have these conversations with you, who will like look around and say, I think things look good around here, but give me the list and I will knock everything out on it. I'll take all the overnight shifts and then I'll get up and go to work the next day. Do you want to get up and go to work the next day?

Speaker 4:
[53:03] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[53:03] Okay. Oh, I'm not saying this is 100% true, but I want you to hold space for I may be experiencing the world not as it truly is. And that could be both disorienting and really empowering. Is that fair?

Speaker 4:
[53:23] Yeah, I think that's fair.

Speaker 2:
[53:26] And when you have a husband who says, here's how you can love me, you can just say, good morning. You can give me a hug. You can put a note on my pillow. And those things feel hard. I want you to double down and walk through the hard because a lot of anxiety is teaching your body, I'm driving now. I can do hard, scary things. I'm worth being trusted. Your body will over time, turn down the anxiety alarms. Okay. That's like where I was asking about your therapist. I would love for you. And again, I trust your licensed therapist, but man, if you go in with pervasive, strong anxiety, you should be leaving after three or four or five sessions, you should be leaving with, here's a thing I want you to practice when you get home. Because anxiety, healing from anxiety, like the therapeutic modality, it's pretty straightforward. And there's, I want you to hear me say, I'm on the other side of it. I got deep resounding peace in my life. My marriage has never, ever, ever been stronger. So I want you to know that on that side of it, okay?

Speaker 4:
[54:42] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[54:44] But it took me like being terrified when I realized I'm experiencing the world in a way that nobody else is. And what if, what if I'm the problem? Instead of everybody else? You get what I'm saying?

Speaker 4:
[55:00] Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2:
[55:02] If you've listened to my show, you know I always go after husbands. And so I'm not trying to pick sides here, but it sounds like he's doing what he can to help somebody who's really struggling. Does that sound right?

Speaker 4:
[55:14] No, he's the best. And I have all the problems.

Speaker 2:
[55:22] No, you don't. I promise you, he has his. But there's a season when we're going to talk, part of our conversations are, I need you to carry 80 percent because I can only carry 20 right now because I'm doing all this work on getting well and whole. I had these things happen to me when I was a kid and my body is still trying to solve for them all and now that I've got two of my own kids staring at me, I got to go head straight through that tension with the help of a licensed professional and I need you to carry an extra bit of the load. He sounds like a guy who's like, hell yeah, I'm in. I got it. It's then deciding I'm not going to judge how he's picking up his 80 percent. I'm going to be grateful for it. I'm going to exhale. I'm going to go do the work I need to do. I'm going to send you two things. One, I'm going to send you Building a Non-Anxious Life. It's the number one best selling book I wrote on this very thing. I want you to read it and I want him to read it too. Because what I always tell folks is if you take away all the diagnostic criteria that nerds use and you just look at symptomology, about half of people in the country are wrestling with anxiety right now. And the other half of the country are married to that half, right? And so this book will give him an insight into what's going on in your body, into your mind, and it will give you both of you all a roadmap for how can we build a world where the alarms naturally tone way down. Okay? That's number one. Number two, I'm also going to send you and your husband the Together app. It's a daily practice. It's a micro habit. It's a thing you can do that just inches you back towards each other, okay? Not any big grand talks, not any big grand... It is a action towards, okay? And my wife is the hardest person, like she is skeptical of all these kind... She loves this app. She loves, loves, loves it. It's my number one selling point. Dude, my wife even uses it. She doesn't listen to the show, none of that. She loves this app, okay? Okay. And if you get an activity, an exercise to do towards your spouse, towards your husband, and you feel uncomfortable, you feel like, I don't like this, it's going to be hard, that in and of itself is good, important data. Bring that to your counselor and say, dude, this thing told me to hug my husband for 60 seconds, to go for a walk with him. And I immediately, my body started shutting down. Let's talk about that, right? It gives you a direction point for healing, maybe over in that area. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4:
[58:11] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[58:11] You're pretty awesome, Mary. You got a lot of work. And thank you for letting me ask a bunch of deep probing questions. What you've told me about your husband is that he's a pretty respectable guy, and he's doing very respectable things. He just doesn't have that sense of panic and urgency that racks, that is constantly in your chest. And so instead of blaming him for not having that, we could be really grateful that he has it, and it could be a lighthouse for us as we say, I want to get that too. Hang on the line. I'm gonna hook you up with some free resources. And man, you call me anytime, Mary. I feel like I've been where you are, minus postpartum, minus giving birth, any of that kind of, so that's an extra complexity. And I just gotta, gotta tell you, there's healing on the other side. My son and I love to be out on the water fishing. It's one of my favorite ways to spend our time. Just the two of us casting our lines and spending time together. And if you fish, you know this, glare on the water can be brutal. You're trying to see where the fish are, and by the end of the day, your eyes are cooked. That's why both me and my son, and actually my wife and daughter too, all wear Shady Rays sunglasses. I got mine, and they are amazing. They're polarized, which means they cut the glare and actually let you see into the water, not just the surface, into the water. It makes a huge difference. Shady Ray sunglasses protect your eyes, they're durable, and they're built for real life. And let me say this, I've lost or broken more sunglasses than I care to admit. Shady Rays has lost and broken protection, yes. So if something happens, they will replace them. That means I'm not stressed about wearing them out in the middle of a lake, on a creek, on an adventure hike, anywhere. They look great and they're not stupid expensive. So if you're a fisherman, if you like being outside, get sunglasses made for fishing. Or check out their entire collection. Head to shadyrays.com and use code Delony for 40% off two or more polarized pairs of sunglasses. That's shadyrays.com. Use code Delony. All right, Kelly, I got to say something happened. So this is last week as we're recording this show. Last week, I'm in the middle of writing this book. It takes up all my life and my brain power, whatever. I headlined a comedy club in Huntsville, Alabama. And I took a couple of awesome comics with me, Mike James and Alex Velluto. They came with me and place was completely packed out. It was a wild, super fun night. But when I took the stage, I said, hey, y'all know me from this. Y'all know me from this show. But I recently found out that Kelly edits out a lot of my crass or rude or Johnisms to make a show that, quote unquote, everyone can listen to. And so I told them tonight is going to be all the parts that Kelly edits. Anyway, I tell you that to tell you, every time I mentioned the name Kelly, the place went bananas. And so you're kind of a hero out there. Despite how mean you are, despite how many people you keep cycling through and firing on our team, or forcing to leave, like they love you out there. Doing the Lord's work here. Well, you're a hero. You're like a famous Amos Hero. We have amazing listeners. We do. My God, they love you. But just- See, despite what you say. Despite what you edit out. I didn't know you're editing all these things out. Well, you say a lot of things that we can't say on the air. Hey, love you guys so much. Thank you all for being with us. Stay in school, don't do drugs, and we'll see you out on the road.