transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] This episode is brought to you by Ultima Replenisher. You know what no one has time for? Over-the-top wellness trends. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for taking care of yourself. But being healthy should make your day better, not harder. And that's where Ultima comes in. With all six essential electrolytes, Ultima provides balanced hydration that fits right into your day. Available in delicious plant-based flavors with no sugar, calories or carbs. Shop Ultima on Amazon or in-store at Target and Whole Foods Market. Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. Very, very excited about our guest today. It is the one, the only Kerry Washington. Kerry is so talented. She is so good at so many things. And we're gonna talk about a lot of those things today. We are gonna talk about growing up in the Bronx, the Bronx, and how it shaped her, and what she learned from being from there. And we're gonna talk about her activism, how she stays connected in a turbulent and often depressing world. We're gonna talk about scandal, because of course, and we're gonna get to the nitty-gritty in a lot of that. And we're gonna talk about Amazing Race, a random show that we talk about and talk about how good it is for kids. We're gonna talk about her new TV show, Imperfect Women, with Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara that's coming out on Apple. All of these things are gonna be discussed today. But most importantly, we're gonna discuss her with someone who loves her, and who is that person? Fitz, that's right, Tony Goldwyn, writer, producer, director. Just coming off of directing Shea Joey, a new musical with Savion Glover, that is hopefully on its way to Broadway. We're catching Tony right after rehearsal. He's tired, and still, he can't wait to profess his admiration for his co-star. So let's see if we can get him on the Zoom horn. Tony, are you there? This episode is presented by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking that the fake roast chicken is, in fact, a fake roast chicken before chomping into a wing? Rookie mistake. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

Speaker 2:
[02:43] Hi, Amy, how are you?

Speaker 1:
[02:45] Thank you for talking to us today, because I have to say that the relationship that you and Kerry had on screen and off screen is really, really wonderful to watch, and people are very invested in it. And what I have to say is what I glean from the way you two interact with each other is a deep mutual respect, deep, deep respect for the way you work and the kind of people that you are. Can you tell us how you first met?

Speaker 2:
[03:15] My first recollection, we may have met briefly before this, was at the Democratic Convention when Obama became president in 2008 in Denver, which was a really incredible experience.

Speaker 1:
[03:27] You bet.

Speaker 2:
[03:27] And then we kind of became friends through kind of social activism and stuff, but didn't know each other well. But for me, when Shonda asked me to do Scandal, and she told me Kerry Washington was doing it, Kerry was an actress who every time I saw her in a movie, I found myself going, who is that actress in that role? Because she was so different in every movie she did. And at the end of the credits, I'd look at her and go, oh my God, that's Kerry Washington. She just was so great. And everything I saw, whether it was Ray or Last King of Scotland, I remember seeing her in it. But again, totally different than anything I'd seen. So I was just like, God, I hope I get a chance to work with her. So when Shonda said to me, she's like, are you playing the president in my new show? And I was like, well, Shonda Rhimes writing a president, that'd be pretty interesting when she's saying Kerry Washington. I was like, you and Kerry Washington, I'm in.

Speaker 1:
[04:21] Had you known Shonda before? Had you worked with Shonda before?

Speaker 2:
[04:24] Yeah, I met Shonda. I directed the, I think the second or third episode of Grey's Anatomy. Wow. It was one of the first TV things I've done. I directed a couple of movies and then Betsy Beers, Shonda's partner, called me up and said, we'd like, would you consider doing Grey's Anatomy? I saw the pilot of that show and said, wow, this is amazing, of course. I was just getting used to directing TV, so I did that. Shonda and I met and she was brand new to television. Little did we know she was going to become Empress of the Universe.

Speaker 1:
[04:55] Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:
[04:56] But I knew the second I met Shonda too, I was like, oh, this woman's the real deal.

Speaker 1:
[05:00] It's so interesting that you and Kerry met in real life doing political work. I'm really in awe of how she stays connected to the real world while also playing these people. Those two things don't always happen.

Speaker 2:
[05:14] She does. First of all, she's got this amazing husband, Nnamdi. She's a totally fully devoted mom of three kids. She's like 1000% in everything she does. I don't know how she does it. I can't ask her because she's too modest. She'd just laugh in my face if I was like, you're amazing. How do you do it? She wouldn't take it. I always learn a lot from her.

Speaker 1:
[05:51] What was it like? She was the leader of the show. She was number one on that call.

Speaker 2:
[05:54] She carried from the get-go. We had an amazing cast of great people, all grownups, no jerks in the cast. But Kerry set a tone by example. She works harder than anybody. Then that role, she worked so hard. I have a funny story. We talked about leading by example. I think it was maybe our fifth season or something like that. When we were going to premiere the season, Good Morning America wanted us to be on the show, but they wanted us to be on as they're opening at 7 a.m. to do it. So we're like, great, great, great, great, great. Then I was in the makeup trailer and some of the actors were like, wait, so we're in LA. Wait, 7 a.m. means we're like 4 a.m. we have to be here. Where we're working is, everyone's sort of bitching and moaning about having to be. That means you have to be in there, girls are like, and that means we got to get up at 2.30 to be in here and make up like, I don't know, do you want to do it? I'm not sure, and I'm like, well, I don't know, you guys want to do it. I don't have to get made up that much. We're like, should we do it? What do we think? Well, let's see. It was one of those things of actors being more like children. We go to the, I'm on set, and one of the Darby and I, Darby Stansfield, a wonderful Darby Stansfield was in our cast, we're talking about it and Kerry walks into the set under the stage. She wasn't working there, she just walks to say hi. Darby's like, oh, I wonder if Kerry wants to do Good Morning America. I was like, why don't she go ask her, see how she feels about it. Darby goes up to Kerry, and this is classic Kerry Washington. Darby goes, Kerry, this Good Morning America thing that's happening at 7 AM, that means we got to get there at 2 or 5 in the morning. I'm just wondering why, and Kerry's like, of course we're doing it. Darby, we're in season five, and ABC wants to promote us by putting us on Good Morning America. Of course, we're getting up 2 in the morning to do this. Isn't it amazing that they want to put us on their opening up their show? Darby goes, yes, I think it's so fantastic. She comes running over to me and I'm like, yep. Machine. That's Quintessence of Kerry Washington.

Speaker 1:
[08:00] I want to talk to her about that because she has this work ethic that's really, you can feel it and it feels very collaborative and inclusive. It doesn't feel like strident, but I'm really curious where she gets it from.

Speaker 2:
[08:14] I don't know. It's for real. It's just for real. But it comes out of a joy and passion and some intense inner drive that she does have. I mean, no one works as hard as she just something drives her. Part of it, I think, is she has a lot of gifts to give the world and a limited amount of time to give them.

Speaker 1:
[08:36] Well, I want to ask her about that. How does one stay involved in this time of deep fatigue? Every day feels really harder and rougher than the next, and there's a lot of people hurting and a lot of people struggling. How do you stay in it?

Speaker 2:
[08:58] It's a big question, and she's got an answer for herself, which I think could be useful to all of us. I mean, I want to ask her about that. I saw that two things that I would ask Kerry that-

Speaker 1:
[09:10] What do you want to ask?

Speaker 2:
[09:11] Well, there are things that I, as I told you, if I asked her myself, she'd laugh at my face. We talked about her activism, Kerry as an activist, she's not a normal celebrity activist, which is a great thing. People who donate their time and their money and their image and their passion to things that they care about. Kerry does it on a level next to maybe Jane Fonda. I've never seen anybody like that. It's become a fully professionalized, fully operational part of her business. It's like she doesn't do anything. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it for real and have a major impact. I just would love to hear her talk about how that became so professional, so full on. Then I guess the second thing I wanted to ask her, which she would never answer to me is the drive we talked about. I wonder as a parent, when you have that much drive as a human being, I'm curious, does she like impart that to them? Or is it something she just lays back and has to dial that back in order to let them be them or find it for themselves? I wonder.

Speaker 1:
[10:25] It's such a good question.

Speaker 2:
[10:27] No, we do this.

Speaker 1:
[10:28] Yeah. How do you lead by example? How do you figure out what is the right thing for your kid? Before you go, and those are great questions, and I want to talk to her about both of these things, and there are areas that I want to get into with her. What does it feel like to have done a show that's still so beloved? I mean, people feel such a connection to that show still, it is, and of those characters. I'll just say it reminds me a little bit of when me and Adam Scott talk about our characters on Parks and Rec, we love Ben and Leslie's love. We love their love. And it feels like you and Kerry both get that, where people are into you, your characters' love.

Speaker 2:
[11:15] Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1:
[11:17] It's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2:
[11:18] It constantly amazes me. I mean, I guess because of Netflix and whatnot, people just this past month or two have been coming up to me a whole lot going, Oh my God, I just finished Scandal. I just discovered, like people are just discovering it. And I'm like, didn't we finish that seven years ago? Yeah. And we had such a beautiful, like you said about you and Adam, we had such a beautiful time doing it. And a group of deep friendships were made, which more than any other job I've ever done. You know, I have some really close friends from over the years that I've worked with. But that group was like your high school best friends for seven years. And we're all still really tight.

Speaker 1:
[11:57] Well, I so appreciate you talking to us. Thank you for the questions. Kerry will be so happy that we talked. Such a fan. Congrats on the musical. Cannot wait to see it. Cannot wait till it goes to Broadway. Cannot wait till it wins the Tony and eventually turns into a film that you direct.

Speaker 2:
[12:14] Thanks, Amy Poehler. I love it.

Speaker 1:
[12:16] I will. I will. Thank you so much, Tony. Thanks for your time.

Speaker 2:
[12:20] Bye. It was great seeing you.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 3:
[13:07] I am.

Speaker 1:
[13:08] So happy that you're here. Thanks for doing this.

Speaker 3:
[13:10] I'm so excited.

Speaker 1:
[13:12] I want to start because I'm obsessed with New York kids.

Speaker 3:
[13:15] Oh.

Speaker 1:
[13:16] I mean, I grew up in the suburbs of Boston. Kids that grew up in New York, they're just...

Speaker 3:
[13:20] We're a different breed.

Speaker 1:
[13:21] You are. And you grew up in the Bronx.

Speaker 3:
[13:22] I did.

Speaker 1:
[13:23] What was it like growing up in the Bronx? Little Kerry, what was the Bronx like when you were growing up?

Speaker 3:
[13:28] The thing about being from the Bronx, and I just did a speech about this, a whole entire speech, because I was presenting Jennifer Lopez with an award. And she and I went to the same Boys and Girls Club in the Bronx. And I was saying in the speech that the Bronx is like the underdog borough. It's like the forgotten borough. You know, like Brooklyn had Spike Lee and Queens has all the airports and the cemeteries and like a story. But the Bronx is like the forgotten borough. And people don't expect much of you when you're from the Bronx. And so there's like a hustle. There's a certain kind of hustle and determination to make it. If there's something you want to do, there's a different kind of strength and resilience, I think, from people who are from the Bronx.

Speaker 1:
[14:13] I agree. It feels like, and also, Fred Armisen does a really funny bit about this. Fred does all the accents of different parts of New York. And he always talks about the Bronx.

Speaker 3:
[14:22] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[14:23] And how it's so even the word with an X in it.

Speaker 3:
[14:28] Yes, it has an X. It's also the only borough that has a the in front of it. You don't say the Brooklyn.

Speaker 1:
[14:35] The Bronx.

Speaker 3:
[14:36] The Bronx. It's like a thing. Yes. It's a whole thing.

Speaker 1:
[14:39] It's so true. And there's a vibe. I mean, it's a working class vibe, certainly.

Speaker 3:
[14:43] Yes, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[14:44] And a sense of pride. But you're right. There is a...

Speaker 3:
[14:48] It's like a scrappy, scruffy, hustler vibe to it that I'm really proud of. Super proud. I don't think I would have the things I have or have done. But I have to tell you, this is a little bit of a tangent, but I have to get... I don't want to forget to say this. This morning when I got up, I was thinking about... I was prepping for this interview.

Speaker 1:
[15:05] You're such a good student.

Speaker 3:
[15:06] I was like, I remember my first Time 100 dinner that I ever had the blessing to attend. You were one of the Time 100 recipients, and your speech changed my life. It was extraordinary because you got up. It was like you stood up at the tables. Do you remember this? Everybody stood up in the room at the tables, and you thanked your nanny. That's who you thanked in your speech.

Speaker 1:
[15:34] Yeah, I owe my nannies a lot.

Speaker 3:
[15:37] And I was thinking about it this morning because it really moved me. I got very emotional. But I was like, I wasn't even a mom then. I wasn't a mom yet. And I think, like now when I think about it, it's one of the things I love about you because you do credit the people who make it possible, right? And I know, like, I'd be nothing without the support that I have with child care and home, all that. But also, I think growing up in the Bronx, my grandmother, like I went to a very fancy Upper East Side, I went to the same school as Gwyneth went to. I went to this fancy Upper East Side school. My grandmother used to cook and clean houses in that neighborhood. And so I think there was a part of me that when you got up and thanked your support team, your home staff, it made me feel like my family was seeing. Like it made me think of my grandmother. And like that you were thanking the people that other people like to ignore or pretend don't exist or want to like marginalize. It just was so moving.

Speaker 1:
[16:41] Kerry, thank you for saying that. I think people like to make the hard working class often invisible.

Speaker 3:
[16:49] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[16:50] And also, it's just mean to other women because it's like nobody's doing this alone.

Speaker 3:
[16:53] Nobody's doing this by themselves. That's right. And you don't get more credit by making other humans invisible. Like it doesn't make you more perfect.

Speaker 1:
[17:01] Well, I feel like a lot of the work that you do is exactly that, is making sure that people feel visible and feel seen. Like whether it's the art you're making or the stuff that you're fighting for. And it makes sense to me that like...

Speaker 3:
[17:13] It would impact me that way. Yeah. And I heard it that way.

Speaker 1:
[17:16] Yeah. Before I pass by J.Lo.

Speaker 3:
[17:20] Yeah. Yeah. Just a little mic drop on J.Lo. She taught me how to dance.

Speaker 1:
[17:24] Can you just tell us?

Speaker 3:
[17:26] What do you mean? So we had this dance teacher named Larry Maldonado and Larry was a dream. Larry taught me so much. He was like this very eccentric, gay man dance teacher and he ran the dance program at the Boys and Girls Club. He got really sick in the 80s, like a lot of people did. Jennifer is not that much older than me, but she's a little bit older than me, so she was one of the big girls at the club. So when Larry went into the hospital, she started teaching dance. She was teaching the little girls classes. I mean, if I was like eight, she was 16 or something like that, but she was teaching. I learned like hip hop and flamenco, and I learned to dance from Jennifer. She's never hired me to dance in any of her videos, but I don't know what that says.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] Yeah. That's wild.

Speaker 3:
[18:15] It's so crazy.

Speaker 1:
[18:15] Because when you're that age and there's like a 16-year-old girl and they're good, they're the most beautiful, talented.

Speaker 3:
[18:21] Yes. I remember right before she left to go off to LA to pursue her dream of being famous, she did this duet dance with Larry, so he must have gotten better and was back. And it was like very risque. We weren't supposed to watch it. The little girls were like, no, this is not for you. It was like later on in the dance program. But we all hid in the wings because we couldn't not watch it. It was beautiful. She was beautiful. And it was just, yeah, she was, she's always been a real inspiration for me.

Speaker 1:
[18:52] That's so cool. What a fun that like, to use a Gwyneth term, like sliding doors moment. See you again in 20 years in a different way.

Speaker 3:
[19:03] Yeah, wild. So wild.

Speaker 1:
[19:03] And you went to Spence. I did. And you were in Midsummer Night's Dream with Gwyneth.

Speaker 3:
[19:07] With Gwyneth. It's the only time I've ever worked with her.

Speaker 1:
[19:10] You've not worked with JLo or Gwyneth since.

Speaker 3:
[19:12] No. You guys, I'm good. We have history. I'm available. Gwyneth, Jennifer.

Speaker 1:
[19:19] Who were you in Midsummer because I was also in that play.

Speaker 3:
[19:22] Who were you? You were Puck.

Speaker 1:
[19:23] I wish.

Speaker 3:
[19:24] Who were you?

Speaker 1:
[19:25] I was Pea's Blossom.

Speaker 3:
[19:26] Of course you were.

Speaker 1:
[19:28] That's so cute.

Speaker 3:
[19:30] I was a fairy too and I don't remember which one.

Speaker 1:
[19:32] I know. They all have names. You might have been Pea's Blossom.

Speaker 3:
[19:34] I bet I was.

Speaker 1:
[19:35] Soulmates. I was just like a background dancer.

Speaker 3:
[19:39] Same.

Speaker 1:
[19:39] Did you know? I feel like you could do many things well. You do do many things well.

Speaker 3:
[19:46] You're so kind. My kids would argue with you, but I like that you think that.

Speaker 1:
[19:49] I feel like there's probably a point in your life where you grew up around a lot of artists. You knew from an early age that you were a creative person, did you make a decision like I'm going to be an actress?

Speaker 3:
[20:00] Yeah, I did.

Speaker 1:
[20:01] At what age?

Speaker 3:
[20:02] So I was halfway through college.

Speaker 1:
[20:04] Okay, yeah, pretty late.

Speaker 3:
[20:06] Yeah, pretty late. I went to college on an acting scholarship, which I didn't even know existed. It was like being on a basketball scholarship. I had to audition for all the plays. I really got benched. I got to do a lot of theater. That was maybe the beginning of being like, oh, people will give me money, significant amounts of money to do this because it was helping to pay for my education. But then halfway through college, I did this summer conservatory program at Michael Howard Studios in Chelsea in New York. And that was the first time in my life that from the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed, all I did was act. There was no like hiding behind other classwork or being an academic. Or it just was like, I was just an artist all day long every day. And I was so happy.

Speaker 1:
[20:54] You loved it.

Speaker 3:
[20:54] I was so happy. And I was doing like clown work and improv and scene study and acting as a business class. And I just was like, I couldn't get enough.

Speaker 1:
[21:04] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[21:05] I wanted to sleep there at night. I just, I was like, so I thought, okay, I'm going to try to do this. I gave myself one year after college and I was like, if I can get a significant job in this year, then I'll go for it. But at the same time, I had like the workbooks next to my bed to study for the LSATs.

Speaker 1:
[21:22] That's what I get for LSATs. Interesting.

Speaker 3:
[21:25] Yeah, I thought maybe grad school for psych, but that even what is like, I'm going to try for law school first.

Speaker 1:
[21:32] And in a, again, sliding doors way, you would be what kind of lawyer?

Speaker 3:
[21:36] Right now I'm thinking of like all's fair. I'd be like a badass divorce lawyer, sexy, Sarah Paulson type. But I don't know. Whatever it'd be, sexy.

Speaker 1:
[21:45] Whatever isn't sexy.

Speaker 3:
[21:46] I'd wear heels.

Speaker 1:
[21:47] I don't know.

Speaker 3:
[21:48] Maybe I'd be like an Olivia Pope. Maybe the like the souls or the energy in your life gets to you no matter how. So maybe I would have been a crisis person and I figured out how to be that person. I mean, my mom who desperately did not want me to be an artist, because she's a professor of education and she was like, I just I don't want you to starve. She just the idea of a starving. Then I brought my parents with me the first time I was at the Emmys. The first time I was nominated at the Emmys, I brought them. And we were sitting at the Governor's Ball. My mom's cutting into her steak, and I was like, anybody starving? She was like, you're doing okay. But I think, oh God, I lost my train of thought. I was like, that was not a humble story to tell.

Speaker 1:
[22:33] No, I love that story. And also what I feel like is you gave yourself a year, and in that year, something big happened.

Speaker 3:
[22:39] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[22:40] What was the break?

Speaker 3:
[22:41] You're good at this.

Speaker 1:
[22:42] Yeah, I'm good at listening. Thanks, let's brag about ourselves for a second.

Speaker 3:
[22:48] You're so good at this. You kept track. That's why you like a tangent, because you're not intimidated by the tangents.

Speaker 1:
[22:55] You're like, I can't bring this back. And honestly, if you care to know, I think about the tangents, I don't know if you think, I'm much more of a visual learner and rememberer. So I think about a tangent when you're talking, I think about literally a line going out like this and I picture it going out like that. And I'm like, just don't forget to get it. I actually visualize it so I don't forget it.

Speaker 3:
[23:18] Do you do that in your improv work? Like when you're doing a sketch, it's really similar, right? I think so.

Speaker 1:
[23:23] I think more and more I'm learning that I visualize things in order to remember them. Like I try to give it some kind of like picture in my mind.

Speaker 3:
[23:31] Yeah, because you have to in the scene work, let it go some, you have to be open to the exploration, but then also remember you got to land the plane.

Speaker 1:
[23:39] So your first big break.

Speaker 3:
[23:40] See, did you see that was magic. Did you see that happen? Oh my God.

Speaker 1:
[23:47] What would you consider your, because there's a lot of things that could be your first big break.

Speaker 3:
[23:51] I think, so I gave myself this year and in that year, I booked my very first film, which was called Our Song, which is actually having its 25th anniversary this year.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] Tell us about that film.

Speaker 3:
[24:04] It was this really tiny scrappy independent film. I mean, our entire transpo department consisted of like four metro cards.

Speaker 1:
[24:13] Rest in peace, metro cards.

Speaker 3:
[24:15] Exactly. We had no wardrobe department. I mean, it was an incredible experience because we were stealing shots on the subway. We didn't have permits. But it was a story of these three girls growing up in Brooklyn, and I wanted this part so badly. I learned to be in a marching band, to be in the movie because it was about a summer in these three girls' lives in Brooklyn that are all part of this marching band. It was the best experience. When I was a kid, we lived in this high rise that was across the water from LaGuardia Airport. We were in a flight path where at the 12th floor, we were at the top floor, these airplanes would fly by when I was a kid, and I would always want to be on those airplanes. Where are they going? I wanted to be on those planes, like explore other places and have adventures. When we were filming our song, we were stealing shots on the A train in Far Rockaway close to Kennedy Airport, and I remember sitting on the train and a plane going over and thinking, nope, there's nowhere else I want to be. I want to be right here.

Speaker 1:
[25:14] How cool.

Speaker 3:
[25:14] Doing what I'm doing. You can't put me on a plane right now. I am like in, this is it. I'm in the pocket.

Speaker 1:
[25:22] That's such a cool feeling. I mean, you wish it for everybody. You do. Whatever they're doing, they realize like this is exactly what I want to be doing. Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[25:29] I wish that for my kids. I wish it for myself even like project to project. Sometimes you sign on for something and you're like, oh, this is exactly what I thought it would be or better. Like this is better than I could have imagined and it feels so good. Sometimes you're like, what time is lunch?

Speaker 1:
[25:43] Yeah. When did you first-

Speaker 3:
[25:47] Not that we're super lucky to be doing what we do. We're blessed.

Speaker 1:
[25:50] I think it's really hard. I think it's as hard as coal mining. I think acting is harder than brain surgery.

Speaker 3:
[25:57] I don't know why more actors don't win the Nobel Prize.

Speaker 1:
[26:01] Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3:
[26:02] Because we bring peace.

Speaker 1:
[26:03] When people talk about brain surgery, I'm like, try acting.

Speaker 3:
[26:05] Honestly?

Speaker 1:
[26:06] Seriously, for one day.

Speaker 3:
[26:07] Because I'm like in your brain doing surgery.

Speaker 1:
[26:10] Exactly. I'm in other people's brains.

Speaker 3:
[26:12] You know what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[26:12] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[26:13] Multiple patients a year. See you there.

Speaker 1:
[26:15] Who's starving now?

Speaker 3:
[26:19] See what I mean?

Speaker 1:
[26:20] Do you see what she does?

Speaker 2:
[26:21] It's brilliant.

Speaker 1:
[26:26] Tell me when you first heard about Scandal, was it written for you? I mean, Shonda, one of one.

Speaker 3:
[26:33] She's one of one.

Speaker 1:
[26:35] What an incredible like-

Speaker 3:
[26:37] Phenom of a human.

Speaker 1:
[26:38] Yeah, phenom. So it was an idea out there that you heard about. And did you feel like I have got to get that?

Speaker 3:
[26:46] So, you know, there's been a lot of talk when Scandal came out. A lot of the headlines were like, this is the first time that a black woman is leading a network drama in almost 40 years. Like it hadn't happened in my lifetime. I'd never seen it. Crazy. So you can imagine that when Word on the Street was that there was a show that was starring a black woman that was going to be on ABC, people went crazy. Everybody wanted to read for it. And God bless Shonda. She was like, I didn't have the heart to say no. So she read everybody from like 15 to 85. Everybody wanted to be Olivia Pope. She read everybody. She met with tons of people. I heard about the project and I was really a film actor. It was that time when like film actors were starting to do television.

Speaker 1:
[27:26] You had done Spike's movie.

Speaker 3:
[27:28] You were...

Speaker 1:
[27:29] Chris Rock's movie.

Speaker 3:
[27:29] That's right. I had done Ray. I had done The Last King of Scotland.

Speaker 1:
[27:33] Yes. Great film.

Speaker 3:
[27:34] So I was like the good luck charm. Like if you hire me to play your wife, you'll win an Academy Award. Forrest Whitaker, Jamie Foxx. So I wasn't hesitant to do television because I was starting to see that there were these incredible women like Glenn Close was doing damages. And you know, you were starting to see it, that there were opportunities for women to play anti-heroes and have like more rich experience in television and movie stars were doing more TV. And so, so I wanted to read the script. I was like, if it's great, I'll consider it. And I read it and I was like, oh, I'm, I, it was one of those things where like I threw the script across the room. Cause I was like, this is, I have to play her. It's for me. Like, no, I have to, the unfortunate thing where they were like 10 other actresses who felt the same way. And so we all auditioned and auditioned and auditioned.

Speaker 1:
[28:23] And did you have to come in and come in and come in?

Speaker 3:
[28:24] I met with her first. Because I was at a certain place in my career, I could do a meeting first.

Speaker 1:
[28:29] Sure.

Speaker 3:
[28:29] So I met with her and I remember getting off the elevator and there was a huge sign that said Shonda Land. And I was like, oh, I don't know about this. Right. Like it's your land.

Speaker 1:
[28:39] Right.

Speaker 3:
[28:40] Like, what does that mean?

Speaker 1:
[28:42] Right.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] I have a country I live in.

Speaker 1:
[28:44] Yeah. You always want to be careful when people say their own name too much. You know what I mean? You never know.

Speaker 3:
[28:49] And then I sat down with her and I was like, I'm in.

Speaker 1:
[28:53] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[28:53] Like I will give up my citizenship to live where in this land of yours. It was just I loved her.

Speaker 1:
[28:59] It's interesting. You have to play a character who has to kind of like take care of other people.

Speaker 3:
[29:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[29:05] And do you feel like in playing that character, you learn anything about how you take care of other people in your life? Like are you a fixer?

Speaker 3:
[29:15] I could and almost did write an entire book on the things I learned from Olivia Poehler. She taught me so much.

Speaker 1:
[29:21] Tell me a couple chapters.

Speaker 3:
[29:24] The biggest thing was she, and I feel like you'll really understand this, she taught me how to be a number one, like at work and in my life. She taught me how to like step into leadership and not shy away from it and to be team captain, to not be afraid of it. That whole like, it's my name on that door. She taught me to not be afraid of that. Because I always thought, I mean, I had this role model of Jennifer Lopez, but I was like, I'm not that, like I'm not that pretty and I don't dance like that. And I just, I thought, I'm never going to be the kind of actor who's like on the cover of magazines. I'm just going to, my goal was to have a career where I could pay the bills, do a few commercials a year, do a lot of theater and just live a happy artist's life. So she really taught me to not be afraid to step into more. Yeah. And that was extraordinary. And yes, I think there was, there is with her, I don't know if she taught me how to be a fixer. I think I brought a lot of that to her. Like it was written that way. I don't mean to say I invented it, but I already understood the need to want to make things around me better and to help people. And that's in me. It's a little bit of an only child thing and maybe a little bit of my own codependency. There is something in me that wants to help other people. I mean, even that joke I made about if you hire me to play your wife, you'll win an Academy Award. I do take a lot of pride in the fact that I think when I go home at night, I want to know not only that I did my best work as an actor, but I take a lot of pride in helping other actors do their best work across from me in the scene. I want my scene partner to be like, whoa, you can do things to push each other and make it better. And that idea of the water, we all rise together. I love that. I love helping people win.

Speaker 1:
[31:23] I think that's the best thing about TV is when you're locked into a part that you love and with people that you love, like I know you love Tony, you love your cast, you're in a marriage. You're really in a long marriage where you have to like each other.

Speaker 3:
[31:36] Yes, yes, it's family. It's really interesting because, this is like what the fans don't want to hear, but I really am so grateful for the healthy relationships that I was able to have also with the men on that show, like Scott Foley and Tony Goldwyn. Like I love their wives, they love my husband. Like there's so much.

Speaker 1:
[31:56] Okay, well let's talk about this. Yeah, let's talk about this. Because what's underneath about this is people ship you guys all the time.

Speaker 3:
[32:01] Ship us so hard. And we, by the way, we like to fuck with people. Like we, I post stuff all the time with Tony.

Speaker 1:
[32:07] And that's how you can tell everyone's secure.

Speaker 3:
[32:09] Yeah, yes.

Speaker 1:
[32:10] That's how you can tell. That's the key. Because you can tell that everybody's feeling totally fine and enjoying it. Because when people don't do that, then you can't fuck around. That's the scandal. Hey! No, but I mean, it's like, that's what the sense I got from watching you two work together. And full disclosure, we talked to Tony for this podcast.

Speaker 3:
[32:34] What?

Speaker 1:
[32:35] What did he tell you? I'll tell you.

Speaker 3:
[32:39] Tell me all the things. I love him so much.

Speaker 1:
[32:41] I know.

Speaker 3:
[32:41] And if he said anything bad, I'll kill him. And did he tell you that he likes my husband better than he likes me? Because that's the truth.

Speaker 1:
[32:52] Well, I'm obsessed with your husband.

Speaker 3:
[32:54] I am too.

Speaker 1:
[32:55] Nandi was so funny on The Kroll Show, by the way.

Speaker 3:
[32:58] He's so funny. He's really funny.

Speaker 1:
[33:00] I love him. And okay, so you're saying like you guys were able to have a healthy, working, appropriate platonic relationship where you were able to discover these characters together and enjoy the fact that people love them together.

Speaker 3:
[33:12] Yes. I love that people ship them. I love it. I love it so much. I love that people get into arguments like, oh, lake, oh, lits, all that stuff. I love it. And I love that, you know, that we gave people romance, you know, we gave people escapism, that we made people think, that we made people feel. I love all of that.

Speaker 1:
[33:32] You had two kids while you were doing your show.

Speaker 3:
[33:34] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[33:35] I also had children when I was doing it. It's very hard.

Speaker 3:
[33:38] Isn't it wild?

Speaker 1:
[33:39] I, by the way, never really, I don't think I really knew that. I mean, I never really sunk in that you were-

Speaker 3:
[33:44] Oh, because my kids were being hidden behind boxes and Prada bags.

Speaker 1:
[33:48] So you had them both, though. You were pregnant and gave birth with both during show.

Speaker 3:
[33:55] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[33:55] Dang.

Speaker 3:
[33:56] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[33:57] That's hard. That's hard. That's all. I have no question because it's hard. It's a thing.

Speaker 3:
[34:06] But also, I was so, so blessed because Shonda also had young kids and we built a playroom on the lot, and Viola had a daughter and How to Get Away was on the same lot. And so we had this playroom. I had my kids at work with me all the time. That's awesome. I figured out how to nurse during camera turnarounds. I was like, I need 15 minutes. Get on. And I just, I loved it. I love my kids. My kids are set kids. They're set kids. They are comfortable on a set, which is important because I went with my mom when she was teaching. I went to her office and I would sit in her lecture halls. And I want them to know that what I do is work, that I'm working.

Speaker 1:
[34:46] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[34:47] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[34:47] We talked to Tony.

Speaker 3:
[34:49] Yes. Okay. Oh yeah. How did I forget? Okay. What did he say?

Speaker 1:
[34:52] I mean, he's your biggest fan. And you know, there's so many things about you that like, you know, I mean, we talked about like the fact that you're the amazing activist that you are, the way that you stay engaged with the world, the way that you make sure that you use your currency for good, and how important it is to you and how impressive it is to people. I mean, you have been working tirelessly for a long time and talking to people about what matters to you and what matters to this country and what matters to the world. How do you stay engaged right now, Kerry? It's tough.

Speaker 3:
[35:26] It is really tough.

Speaker 1:
[35:27] People are feeling super fatigued and really feeling numb and checked out, and feeling disconnected and feeling discouraged. How are you staying connected and not opting out? Any advice?

Speaker 3:
[35:42] You know that toxic positivity thing that people talk about?

Speaker 1:
[35:46] More aware of it.

Speaker 3:
[35:47] Yeah, right? I don't want to do that.

Speaker 1:
[35:50] I know. I mean, I don't want to.

Speaker 3:
[35:52] But this is not that.

Speaker 1:
[35:53] No, I don't think it is, but you're right. It's always like, you don't want to be like, it's going to be great.

Speaker 3:
[36:01] No, some things are really horrible right now.

Speaker 1:
[36:04] Y'all, it's bad.

Speaker 3:
[36:06] Yeah. But I also don't want to bury my head in the sand because I think it's really important to stay open hearted and to ask myself, what am I willing to do? Because that's changed also. I think every day, each person and every day, there's a different level of what we can give. So I keep trying to ask myself, what am I able to do today? And some days it's like, march for six hours for no kings with my entire family and make seven posters and do it all. And some days it's like, I want to donate $5 to a community organization. You know, like there's different, but to not do nothing, to really like ask of myself to not do nothing. Cause we can all be doing something, and you know, that it's time, treasure or talent. Like no matter who you are, you have something you can give and it can change over time. But I think we all have to be leaning into solution, like in little ways even.

Speaker 1:
[37:06] The other thing I just want to command you on is, and definitely from a social media perspective, is you also make things seem fun. And I know that that word fun can feel like, I don't know, not weighted enough, but it isn't important because when you ask people for their time, their energy, it's really hard. I mean, people have really complicated lives. And when you ask them to join in to something, if it looks like it's a drag, if it looks like it's a drag, they're like, I'm already pretty sad. Yes.

Speaker 3:
[37:40] Yes. You know, like, so true.

Speaker 1:
[37:43] Like, I'm gonna take care of my family. And like, I hope those other sad people are also hanging on, but I'm sad too. But there's something about the way I find in how you talk about things and like, thinking about Tony showing up for things is a good example of that, your instinct to wanna make it interesting for you. Like, just this idea of like, how can I involve people is, it's not an easy thing to do.

Speaker 3:
[38:07] So I would say two things about that. One is that I learned from two extraordinary women, Eve Ensler, who wrote the Vagina Monologues, and Jane Fonda. And I used to be on a board, like the board, the V board, we called it, for the Vagina Monologues, and which was, went from being a play to being a global movement and violence against women. And those two women really throughout my life have taught me that when you're feeling isolated, alone and afraid, if you plug into community, and community activism in particular, but when you plug into community, into like baking bread for somebody else, or making cookies, or driving somebody else's kid to school, or just checking on a girlfriend who you haven't heard from in a long time, like plugging into community actually helps you feel better. Like it, being a part of something bigger than you actually is like a balm for your soul.

Speaker 1:
[39:01] This episode is brought to you by Visible. Let's be honest, wireless can feel like a world of traps, expensive bills, hidden fees, and promises that just don't hold up. You start to feel stuck. Don't fall for the trap. Escape to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. Get unlimited data and hotspot powered by Verizon. One line, all for just $25 a month, taxes and fees included. You heard that right, just $25 a month. Get great coverage and a reliable connection with Visible. Switch today at visible.com and start saving on wireless. Terms apply. See visible.com for planned features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by eBay. On eBay, every find has a story. Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee, not just a tee, the band tee, you wore it everywhere until your ex stole it. Now you're on eBay. There it is. Same tee from the same tour. The things you love have a way of finding their way back to you, especially on eBay. Shop eBay for millions of finds, each with a story, eBay. Things people love. This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Good things come in fours, like seasons and car wheels. Okay, I guess they're not super exciting, but you know what is? PayPal pay in four. Now that's a four you can get behind. No fees, no interest, no impact on your credit score, just the flexibility to pay the way that works for you. And it's available at millions of online stores. Pay in four with PayPal. Subject to approval, learn more at paypal.com/pay in four, PayPal Inc, NMLS910457. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. Most cars just stick to the asphalt, but hybrids can be found on dirt roads, back roads and everything in between. Because the Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid and Subaru Forester Hybrid were built for adventure. With up to 597 miles per tank in the Crosstrek Hybrid and 581 miles in the Forester Hybrid, love goes the extra mile in the Subaru Forester Hybrid and Crosstrek Hybrid. Visit suburu.com/hybrid to learn more. Maximum range based on EPA estimated combined fuel economy and a full tank of fuel. Actual mileage and range may vary. Tony talked also again about like your incredible mothering. One of his questions was...

Speaker 3:
[41:32] Oh, he had a question?

Speaker 1:
[41:33] Yeah, so I...

Speaker 3:
[41:34] I'm not taking questions.

Speaker 1:
[41:35] Okay, good. So you've directed... No, no, no. Go ahead. That is, by the way... You shouldn't take a question. Don't take a question. Just be like, I'd rather not answer.

Speaker 3:
[41:49] No. I remember doing one of our first... It was like our first all-cast appearance on Good Morning America with the Scandal cast, and none of them had done a lot of press before.

Speaker 1:
[41:58] Right.

Speaker 3:
[41:59] And I had done all these movies. And so I was like, you guys, here's the number one thing to remember. Because they came into the green room and they were like, something was going on with Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt or something. And they came in the green room and they were like, do you mind if we ask you? And I said, we'd rather not talk about that. And the whole cast was like, no. Oh, you can say that? So you guys, no matter what anybody asks you, just say what you want to say.

Speaker 1:
[42:19] I always say that to people. Answer whatever question you want. If someone says, if someone says, you had, you know, there's difficult things going on at home, you can go, I mean, I think at the end of the day, what's important about us as a community?

Speaker 3:
[42:32] There you go. Just answer whatever you want. That's right. It's your interview.

Speaker 1:
[42:37] The person forgets what they even asked if you're good enough.

Speaker 3:
[42:40] You know why? They don't know to come back.

Speaker 1:
[42:42] They don't know. They don't know to do tangents. They don't know how to get back in there. And if they come back with like, but what I asked about, then you're like, Oh, I think we're out of time. You're like, it's weird. I can't hear you. Speaking of therapy, my therapist used to say something that was always like making me laugh. As when someone asks an inappropriate question, like we're talking not like reporters, but let's say like a friend or a colleague who asked something inappropriate. If you want to stall for time, because you know, like our instinct is to like react. We can go, what an interesting question.

Speaker 3:
[43:15] I say it all the time.

Speaker 1:
[43:16] I love that.

Speaker 3:
[43:17] I say it all the time.

Speaker 1:
[43:18] I was like, I'm so curious why you ask that.

Speaker 3:
[43:20] All the time. Are you just like, that's a great question. What a good, what a great question.

Speaker 1:
[43:26] I wonder what made you ask that question.

Speaker 3:
[43:30] Can you unpack that for me a little bit more? Where did that come from?

Speaker 1:
[43:34] Where did that question come from? And then they go.

Speaker 3:
[43:43] Okay, what was Tony's question?

Speaker 1:
[43:45] His question was, your intense inner drive, when it comes to, you have this inner drive, which he really respects. When it comes to being a mom, is it something you want to instill in your children? And it's kind of what we talked about, how do you push or do you push? How do you figure out, like you have a very strong work ethic.

Speaker 3:
[44:08] I do. I'm like a longshoreman of acting.

Speaker 1:
[44:12] I mean, I promise we will cut this part and not keep it in, but have you ever done the Enneagram test?

Speaker 3:
[44:18] You can keep it in. I've done it. I don't remember. I don't remember what it is.

Speaker 1:
[44:22] You're very Enneagram three to me.

Speaker 3:
[44:24] Really?

Speaker 1:
[44:24] Achiever, achiever, achiever.

Speaker 3:
[44:25] Oh, interesting. But anyway, I feel like Reese is, I feel like she told me she's a three.

Speaker 1:
[44:29] Oh, she's a big time, I would say.

Speaker 3:
[44:31] Whatever I am, I remember I told Rashida and Rashida was like, I don't like those and I was like, but we're friends and then it like changed her mind.

Speaker 1:
[44:39] It's a very Enneagram seven wing six thing for Rashida to say.

Speaker 3:
[44:43] Oh, see? I love this about you. I didn't know that you had this.

Speaker 1:
[44:46] We're cutting all of this out.

Speaker 3:
[44:49] Are you an astrology person also or just an Enneagram?

Speaker 1:
[44:51] No, that is nonsense.

Speaker 3:
[44:56] I believe in numbers. Numerology.

Speaker 1:
[45:04] He was wondering if like your drive, like how do you try to instill that in your kids? Do you want to lead by example? Like how do you, because I think what's underneath that and what I think is interesting is when I started with is that you can do many things well and you work really hard. How do you instill that in your children?

Speaker 3:
[45:24] I do. I think about this because I feel like they don't have that thing of being from the Bronx. Right. They don't have that scrappy hustler. At least they weren't born in the neighborhood that I think produced it in me. And so I wonder where they'll find it.

Speaker 1:
[45:42] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[45:42] I see my kids are really resilient. And I see it mostly in sports. That's like their opportunity, their place where that gets through to grow.

Speaker 1:
[45:51] So what kind of sports mom are you? Do you go to the games?

Speaker 3:
[45:55] I go to the games.

Speaker 1:
[45:56] And do you cheer?

Speaker 3:
[45:57] I do. And much to the dismay of my children, because I'm like a loud cheerer.

Speaker 1:
[46:02] Are you a after the game, let's say they have a game and it doesn't go well. What do you say to them? There's no wrong answer here.

Speaker 3:
[46:11] Really?

Speaker 1:
[46:11] I mean, unless you like berate them, which I know you wouldn't, but... Get it together! How do you like to approach...

Speaker 3:
[46:21] I really try to be directed by them. Like I try to figure out how they're feeling about it and ask a lot of questions. I don't try to like make it better immediately. I try to just like, if there was a visual metaphor for it, I try to like sit on the bench with them and just like look where they're looking, just give it some time.

Speaker 1:
[46:43] It's funny that you do that. I find that there's a lot of good conversations when people are looking forward in the car.

Speaker 3:
[46:48] With kids, especially, walks in the car, that like thing of like, I'm just going to be here. Like, let me know. Like, was that hard? Do you feel good? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[46:59] I heard a really cool thing one time, again, probably just read it on Instagram. I definitely didn't read it in a book. Definitely read it in a book. Heard it on a commercial on YouTube.

Speaker 3:
[47:09] My daughter's been saying lately, I've been like, where did you get that? She's like, well, not to sound like you, but I read it in an article. I'm like, what article? Time for kids? She's like, an article.

Speaker 1:
[47:22] But I read something once, or again, saw something one time that was like, act like, I loved this metaphor, act like a small town reporter with your kids. So just repeat back to them what they just said, if you're writing it down in a small notebook, it really works.

Speaker 3:
[47:46] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[47:47] And it was like, the less questions you can ask, the better. So they're like, that was a bad game. That was a bad game. I sucked. I didn't play well. You didn't play well. Like you don't say, why? Questions can sometimes kind of stop the, because all you want them to do is talk.

Speaker 3:
[48:06] Oh, that's so good.

Speaker 1:
[48:08] Then if you want, you can kind of like give them a headline back, like, so it was a bad game and you didn't play well. Oh, wow. They're just like, yeah, and then pause. Because the coach said whatever. Because the coach said whatever.

Speaker 3:
[48:21] Because we just want to be witnessed. As human beings, we just want to be witnessed and heard. That's such good, like, I hear you, I see you, I'm going to give it back to you. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:31] That's good. Isn't that a good way to think about it?

Speaker 3:
[48:34] That's really good.

Speaker 1:
[48:34] As opposed to what my instinct sometimes to do is like, well, you know what I would do. You know what I think you should say.

Speaker 3:
[48:42] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:43] Yeah. And I always ruin it at the end.

Speaker 3:
[48:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[48:45] You've directed a lot. You love directing.

Speaker 3:
[48:48] I love directing.

Speaker 1:
[48:49] What do you love about it?

Speaker 3:
[48:49] I haven't directed it as much as I would like to, so I need to do more. I'm saying that here.

Speaker 1:
[48:54] And you walk in, you've walked in other people's shows. You've walked in, and you did Smil if you did. Insecure.

Speaker 3:
[49:03] Yeah, I love directing.

Speaker 1:
[49:05] What's it like to walk into a show that's already running?

Speaker 3:
[49:08] It's so fun. I mean, especially if I love the show and love the creatives. And I just, I think the thing I love about directing is that thing I was talking about with acting. Like, I love to help other, I love to help create an environment where other people can do their best work. And to help push people toward excellence, like unlock the things that are gonna make other people better, whether it's set design or acting or a score, like just getting into a situation to help other people do what they do best. I love, I love that.

Speaker 1:
[49:41] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[49:41] I love it.

Speaker 1:
[49:42] Yeah, and do you think you wanna, I mean, have you directed a feature?

Speaker 3:
[49:46] I haven't.

Speaker 1:
[49:47] So that should be next, yeah?

Speaker 3:
[49:49] I think so.

Speaker 1:
[49:50] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[49:50] I think so.

Speaker 1:
[49:51] It's a lot of time.

Speaker 3:
[49:52] It's a lot of time away from your family. It's a lot of time. So I did this movie with Ben Affleck, the senior, and he was like, you need to find a feature to direct. And I was like, I have to find a feature that I like enough to spend that much time away from my amazing husband and children.

Speaker 1:
[50:06] Have you ever heard Sarah Polly talk about any of this stuff, the amazing director? She talks a lot about me too. And when she did Women Talking, which I thought was amazing, she talked a lot about how there's this... Obviously, we're always trying to write the imbalance of not enough female directors, and there's not enough discussion about the fact that women, and with kids, you have to give up a lot of time. And that she was hoping and kind of working towards this idea that you could have these humane ways of working where more women could direct. And she talked about that movie.

Speaker 3:
[50:44] What that would look like.

Speaker 1:
[50:45] Yeah, that she had women on her crew be able to... Kind of like what Shonda did, bring kids to work, try to keep hours shorter, try to keep prep more remote, whatever it was, so that more women were incentivized. Because it is like, it's like, it's really, really hard to be away.

Speaker 3:
[51:03] It's a life choice.

Speaker 1:
[51:04] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[51:05] I, so on this film with Ben, he likes to be home with his kids for dinner. And so we were done filming every single day by 6 37. It meant I was out before drop off, but I was home for dinner and bedtime and homework to the point where my son was like, mom, is your part not big? Like, why are you, like he was worried for my career. Like, why are you home every night for dinner? Did you get fired? Are you like pretending to act during the day?

Speaker 1:
[51:36] He was putting on an outfit and sitting in your car.

Speaker 3:
[51:38] He was like, mom, mom, it's okay. Be honest. I was like, no, I have a really big part. He was like, oh, mom, mom, it's okay. It's okay. There are no small parts. Mom.

Speaker 1:
[51:54] But that's so humane.

Speaker 3:
[51:56] So on Imperfect Women, it was this extraordinary experience of all three leads were all moms.

Speaker 1:
[52:03] Let's talk about this. Who's in Imperfect Women with you?

Speaker 3:
[52:05] Lizzy Moss and Kate Mara and myself. I mean, most of our directors are moms, all of our producer. I mean, it was such a family-friendly set. And it was great because the show is really told from three points of view. So basically for like a third of the show, I was number one on the call sheet. A third of the show, Kate Mara was number one on the call sheet. And a third of the show, Lizzy was number one on the call sheet. So we got to all like star in a show, but we all had lots of time. To like do other things. Like in Lizzy's episodes, I'm sort of a glorified extra. Like number six, even though I'm not, but it feels like I'm one of the ensemble. And so it was a really wonderful way to share the load of the pressure of what it takes to lead a limited series, because we really shared that responsibility.

Speaker 1:
[52:55] That's really cool.

Speaker 3:
[52:56] So fun. And also it's really great, because you got to flex. Like everybody got to do really meaty. I mean, these women, Kate Mara and Lizzie Moss, they're the beasts of acting. Just extraordinary talent.

Speaker 1:
[53:07] I mean, we're a cast. I mean, I've just, we rewatched the Mad Men recently.

Speaker 3:
[53:13] Oh, so good.

Speaker 1:
[53:15] Good Lord.

Speaker 3:
[53:16] So good.

Speaker 1:
[53:16] Elizabeth Moss is...

Speaker 3:
[53:18] She's extraordinary. She's a treasure.

Speaker 1:
[53:20] She is an incredible actor.

Speaker 3:
[53:22] And another amazing director. She's an incredible director.

Speaker 1:
[53:26] I am not surprised. You, like me, you've been in the business a long time. And you've seen it change and expand and grow in the way things...

Speaker 3:
[53:34] What was that that I just did?

Speaker 1:
[53:36] The cigarette thing?

Speaker 3:
[53:39] Oh, that was a long time, baby.

Speaker 1:
[53:40] Oh, okay. Remember, did you ever smoke cigarettes?

Speaker 3:
[53:43] So...

Speaker 1:
[53:44] That's a yes.

Speaker 3:
[53:45] Casually. I was like a weekend smoker.

Speaker 1:
[53:47] Yeah, you never bought cigarettes.

Speaker 3:
[53:49] No, never bought cigarettes. Well, no, not really. Only for like a boy I really liked and we shared them. But I wasn't like a real... And then always it was because I would start smoking because of a character. And then get... I was like kind of method with the smoking. Nothing else, just the smoking.

Speaker 1:
[54:03] Yeah, no. Do you have any like vices right now that you try to get rid of? Anything?

Speaker 3:
[54:10] Honestly, so this question, like I don't like the guilty pleasure question because I feel like if I'm not killing anybody, then I don't want to feel guilty about my pleasure.

Speaker 1:
[54:18] That's right.

Speaker 3:
[54:19] My pleasure is like... Pleasure is good.

Speaker 1:
[54:21] What about your hobbies? Like, do you like fake food?

Speaker 3:
[54:25] No, but this I know came from...

Speaker 1:
[54:26] Yes, Ina Garten gave me that. Garten. That's amazing.

Speaker 3:
[54:30] Are there gifts? Should I have brought you fake food?

Speaker 1:
[54:31] Not at all, but I just realized something today and not to put you on the spot. It's not a psychological test and your therapist, Julie? Well, nope. Won't mind. But you've got three different types of burgers there. One's a candle. And I would love to know which one you'd like to pick. And for people that are listening, we've got a candle cheeseburger, we've got a wooden cheeseburger, and we've got a squishy. That she went for the squish. You know who else went for the squish? Michelle Obama.

Speaker 3:
[55:04] Oh, I mean, water seeks its own level. This is so satisfying.

Speaker 1:
[55:12] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[55:13] Excuse me, I'm going to have a moment.

Speaker 1:
[55:14] Yeah. ASMR.

Speaker 3:
[55:16] And I'm not going to feel guilty because it's pleasurable.

Speaker 1:
[55:18] Yeah. Do you enjoy, do you have any like-

Speaker 3:
[55:20] I love dark chocolate. I'm a big dark chocolate girl.

Speaker 1:
[55:24] And are you, are you like a- is there any kind of knitting hobby situation?

Speaker 3:
[55:28] I really like Kitsun-gi.

Speaker 1:
[55:30] Excuse me?

Speaker 3:
[55:32] I did not sneeze.

Speaker 1:
[55:33] Hold on.

Speaker 3:
[55:34] You want to Google it?

Speaker 1:
[55:37] While you tell me what it is.

Speaker 3:
[55:38] So it is the Japanese art of putting broken pottery back together again with gold.

Speaker 1:
[55:46] Oh, wow.

Speaker 3:
[55:47] It's so beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[55:48] Oh, wow. That looks so-

Speaker 3:
[55:49] The pieces are so beautiful. And so I had read about it a long time ago. And then I had this beautiful pottery that my mom and dad bought for Namdi and I for our 10-year anniversary. It had like a Bible verse on the edge. It was handmade. It was beautiful. And my kids were playing ball in the house and they broke it. And I was able somehow miraculously to regulate my nervous system in the moment and not yell. I was like, oh, and they were devastated. My son was like crying. And I remembered Kitsunke. And I was like, I'm going to put this back together. And so I found this private teacher. This was last year of my birthday. And I went and brought her these pieces. And we put this ball back together. And the art, the philosophy of this art is that by not making the cracks disappear, but by highlighting them with gold, you actually bring beauty to the broken spaces. And you honor that the places where we are wounded and broken are what make us most beautiful. It's just so special. So it's very meditative and beautiful. So now my friends give me their Bergen plates and bowls and things. But yeah, I really enjoy that.

Speaker 1:
[56:58] By the way, what a nice thing for your kids to also see too. Like we make mistakes, it's okay.

Speaker 3:
[57:03] And now actually what they say to people when they ask about it is they're like, so now we're part of the bowl too. Because it's like it's our anniversary bowl. Of course they had to be a part of it.

Speaker 1:
[57:11] Oh, that's so nice. And honestly, it reminds me of your memoir. It reminds me of Thicker Than Water, which was amazing.

Speaker 3:
[57:20] I mean, that was very artful, what you just did there. That was super.

Speaker 1:
[57:25] Kitsungi. But it does, because it reminds me of what you spoke about. And you've spoken about your experience recently, learning more about your family and learning. And you wrote beautifully about it, about in an attempt to kind of find your roots, your family kind of informed you like, hey, the way maybe you thought this family came to be was a little different.

Speaker 3:
[57:56] You've been lied to for four decades.

Speaker 1:
[57:58] And that you were born with artificial insemination.

Speaker 3:
[58:02] From a donor.

Speaker 1:
[58:02] From a donor. And you spoke so beautifully about it and honestly about it. And I guess my question to you is, now with some time, you've kind of, the book's out, you've spoken about it. How do you like to talk about it now?

Speaker 3:
[58:14] I really enjoy talking about it, because it's been such a healing journey for my family. We're in such a better place than we used to be. And we kind of had a picture perfect-esque. For a working class family from the Bronx, we were as perfect as it gets. Or so we performed to be. And now there's a real genuine closeness and authenticity and truth between us. That's so special. I'm just so, so grateful. So I really like talking about it. My mom said this thing, we were being interviewed, I think by Robin Roberts. And my mom said, you know, we're just not as afraid to hurt each other as we used to be. And that's huge. That's safety in relationship. That trust that things are hard, but you'll get through it. I don't know, there's just so much allowing now in our family and grace. So much more truth and grace than there used to be. I don't know, it's just such a gift my parents gave me by telling me this truth about who I am and who we are.

Speaker 1:
[59:21] Yeah, it's so awesome. Well, from what I know about you is you love to laugh.

Speaker 3:
[59:25] I do.

Speaker 1:
[59:26] You do.

Speaker 3:
[59:27] I really do.

Speaker 1:
[59:28] What is making you laugh these days? What is like a way where you practice tuning out or enjoying yourself or like who, what do you watch, read? Is it a, is it, you have something.

Speaker 3:
[59:40] Well, I love this podcast. Does everybody say that?

Speaker 1:
[59:44] No, no, not enough.

Speaker 3:
[59:46] This podcast is amazing.

Speaker 1:
[59:49] Oh my God, Kerry, thank you.

Speaker 3:
[59:51] The big thing is my kids.

Speaker 1:
[59:53] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[59:53] Really, because now they're people. So I have one that's 20, my bonus baby is 20 and then an 11 and a nine. And they're, like now they have their own wit and it's sharp.

Speaker 1:
[60:07] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[60:07] And I love that. Like I actually, so I want to be really clear. I love when my kids get a good burn on me.

Speaker 1:
[60:16] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[60:16] But it's different. I'm not saying that I want my kids to be disrespectful. Like there's a different thing about like, I see some of these other households that my kids hang out in sometimes where there's no discipline or respect in the house. Like that does not fly in my home. It's really important. But like a good, well-timed comedic burn, it just makes me love them more.

Speaker 1:
[60:36] Well, because maybe teasing is a little bit of a love language for you.

Speaker 3:
[60:40] I think so.

Speaker 1:
[60:41] Because I share that like a well-placed tease that is well-observed is a sign of intelligence that your kids are paying attention to you.

Speaker 3:
[60:52] Yes, they see you.

Speaker 1:
[60:53] That they know you can take a joke, which is important.

Speaker 3:
[60:55] Yes, they feel safe with me.

Speaker 1:
[60:56] They see me.

Speaker 3:
[60:58] They feel comfortable flexing their own mental prowess. I just love that.

Speaker 1:
[61:04] Yes, and they're trying to figure out what goes too far. And they're supposed to practice with you.

Speaker 3:
[61:09] Yeah, they are. Yeah, so I love that. And I love also that it humbles me. You know, I love that. My kids are so not impressed with me, which I love.

Speaker 1:
[61:17] Yeah. Have you guys started watching any stuff, any comedy together? Because that is the age around eight and eleven where you start being like, Oh, we can share shows.

Speaker 3:
[61:26] The number one show that we obsess over as a family, even so we go back and watch old episodes because it doesn't come on enough, is Amazing Race.

Speaker 1:
[61:35] Let's talk about Amazing Race.

Speaker 3:
[61:38] We love Amazing Race. Is it still on? It's still on.

Speaker 1:
[61:41] Amazing. They're still racing.

Speaker 3:
[61:42] They're still Phil. He's still traveling the world. I've never met him. If I ever meet him, I'm going to pass out. He's amazing.

Speaker 1:
[61:52] He's amazing.

Speaker 3:
[61:53] He's amazing. He's amazing and he races. The thing I love about watching with our kids is, there's all this learning going on. First of all, we're learning geography. Right. We're learning culture. We're learning languages, dance around the world, food around the world. Music around the world. Landmarks in important places. Yeah. You're also learning just travel resilience because we're a big travel family. They're learning sometimes the hotel is closed. Sometimes you miss the train. They're learning that kind of stuff. But the biggest thing are these relational dynamics.

Speaker 1:
[62:24] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[62:25] Because I love when my son turns to me and he's like, he is not a good husband. Right? You see these teams where you're like, why is he talking to her like that? Or like two siblings where you're like, they do not really get along. Or two sisters where you're like, I love their relationship. Like that, it's so, they're really learning about what makes a good team, what partnership looks like, what respect, so we love them. And we laugh a lot in Amazing Race because inevitably in the first couple of episodes, there's always the people that are like, they have no business being on the Amazing Race.

Speaker 1:
[62:56] Those people have no business racing around the world.

Speaker 3:
[63:00] No, but they're having a good time We have a good time with them.

Speaker 1:
[63:04] Do you think when you watch Amazing Race, do you think you would do well on it?

Speaker 3:
[63:07] It was. So here's one of the really sweet things. And I don't talk about my relationship often.

Speaker 1:
[63:12] I know. I love Nandi though.

Speaker 3:
[63:13] He's so cute. It's the first show we watched together. Even when we were dating, we were watching Amazing Race.

Speaker 1:
[63:18] You guys would crush on Amazing Race.

Speaker 3:
[63:19] We would crush Amazing Race.

Speaker 1:
[63:21] We would. He has all of the physical prowess.

Speaker 3:
[63:24] There's so many retired athletes on there.

Speaker 1:
[63:27] But he has the athlete thing. And he's so smart and funny. And you have the drive.

Speaker 3:
[63:33] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[63:34] You would be the one.

Speaker 3:
[63:36] I'm scrappy. I've got the Bronx. I'd bring the Bronx with me wherever I go. My mother's like, why do you make everything the Bronx? Whenever I'm like, come over here. She's like, this is not.

Speaker 1:
[63:47] Well, do you watch it and think I would do well? The only thing I know I would not do well on is the running.

Speaker 3:
[63:54] What? It's a race. What are we talking about? You have to run. What do you mean? Do not run?

Speaker 1:
[64:00] I mean, I run okay.

Speaker 3:
[64:02] Sometimes it's a foot race. The foot race. Sometimes it's two teams.

Speaker 1:
[64:06] You can be so great and then at the end, you just have to run with your bag to the next thing.

Speaker 3:
[64:10] It's true.

Speaker 1:
[64:11] That's not nice.

Speaker 3:
[64:12] I would kill.

Speaker 1:
[64:13] You would? Are you a good runner?

Speaker 3:
[64:14] No, but I would make myself a good runner.

Speaker 1:
[64:16] See, this is our difference.

Speaker 3:
[64:18] I think I would struggle with the driving.

Speaker 1:
[64:23] I could do that well.

Speaker 3:
[64:24] Yeah?

Speaker 1:
[64:25] We would be a good team.

Speaker 3:
[64:26] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[64:26] Because I would be like at the end when they'd be like, run to the thing, I'd be like, you got this, Kerry.

Speaker 3:
[64:30] Yeah, and I would go, and in the car, I'd be like, go for it. I get nervous on the highway. I'm one of those people like as you approach the moment where it splits, I'm like, I don't know, GPS, be more clear. I get really nervous.

Speaker 1:
[64:43] No, I could lock in on the driving. But the running, I know I would try as fast as I could. I would try as hard as I could and I would just get so far behind.

Speaker 3:
[64:52] We always make the mistake of falling in love with a team that's like a father daughter or a mother son and they do so well and they're so smart and they're so on it and then there's a foot race and you're like, It's the running.

Speaker 1:
[65:01] It takes them down.

Speaker 3:
[65:02] She's 87. They're not going to win. They're not going to win.

Speaker 1:
[65:07] And that is why I don't think it's fair. There's too much running in that show about racing.

Speaker 3:
[65:12] But also anything can, like the thing, the great, we're not going to talk about this forever, but the thing that's so magical about The Amazing Race and the other thing that my kids really are absorbing is anything's possible.

Speaker 1:
[65:23] True.

Speaker 3:
[65:24] The final challenge can be all mental. And you think you're the team who's got it, but if you can't figure out how to make that special Portuguese sausage the way, then you're done.

Speaker 1:
[65:35] And to the point about teamwork, when people are at their lowest point, when they're very, very stressed, their real personality comes out.

Speaker 3:
[65:45] It's so true.

Speaker 1:
[65:46] So when someone is kind, and when they're kind to each other at their lowest moment, then you know they're going to be okay.

Speaker 3:
[65:52] Yes. We always, because we watch old episodes, and we still Google, like, are they still together? Do we think they're married still? Did they ever get married? We're like super fans.

Speaker 1:
[66:01] I feel like you and Nandi need to go on a date.

Speaker 3:
[66:03] All right. Just the two of you. But no, we can't. And like compete with all the big brother people.

Speaker 1:
[66:10] Remember Battle of the Network stars?

Speaker 3:
[66:12] I do remember that.

Speaker 1:
[66:13] You might be too young for that.

Speaker 3:
[66:14] But I do have a memory of that.

Speaker 1:
[66:16] There was an amazing moment in TV where all of the stars in TV had to put on really short shorts and do like Olympic events and just do track and field events. And it was the most famous people in TV.

Speaker 3:
[66:32] And they all did it.

Speaker 1:
[66:33] And they all did. I mean, I would do it today.

Speaker 3:
[66:36] I would do it. You would say all but the running.

Speaker 1:
[66:38] I would do all but the running. And I wouldn't do very well in any of the events. But I would have so much fun. I'd be a good like mouth. I'd be like, I'd be able to trash talk.

Speaker 3:
[66:49] Oh, yes. That's important.

Speaker 1:
[66:51] And that was important. In Battle of the Network Stars, there was a little bit of like, ha ha, I'm gonna get you kind of thing. But insurance would never let this happen.

Speaker 3:
[66:59] That's true. They wouldn't do it now. The teams that I'm proud that my kids don't like, because I got nervous they would just be focused on the winning. But occasionally there are teams who lie about what to do next. They're like, they figure out a challenge and then they lie to the next team.

Speaker 1:
[67:14] I know.

Speaker 3:
[67:17] And those teams, the karma, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[67:21] When they take the thing, they're like, don't show them the clue.

Speaker 3:
[67:23] That's right. They're like, oh yeah, the clue is over there. And it's really over there.

Speaker 1:
[67:26] And they're like, see you in hell.

Speaker 3:
[67:27] That's right. That's right.

Speaker 1:
[67:30] See you in Amazing Race Hell. And Phil's going to be like, you've arrived. You're the last to arrive.

Speaker 3:
[67:36] You in Amazing Race. I'm sorry to inform you. It's so good.

Speaker 1:
[67:43] Kerry, thank you so much for doing this. This was so fun. Thank you so much, Kerry. It was so fun talking to you. And I'm always just impressed by your range and ability to do so many things so well. Thanks for being an awesome guest. And it's just great talking to you. And I feel like I want to just plug this YouTube show, The Street That You Grew Up On, because there's great guests like Michelle Obama and Issa Rae and Sarah Paulson. And it's a great idea, this idea of just figuring out where you grew up and digging deeper. And it feels like Kerry is always trying to do that in her own life and in her characters. And so check that out on YouTube. And I have heard that you can get YouTube without commercials, if you pay a little extra, which I'm not willing to do. But if you want to do that, that's up to you. So thank you so much for joining us, Kerry. Thanks so much for listening to Good Hang and we'll see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen and Aleya Zenieris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles. This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. It's everyone's favorite time of year, tax time. Okay, that may not be true, but TaxAct does make it easy to do taxes online. They offer step-by-step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15 deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add Expert Assist and get unlimited help from a credentialed US-based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more.

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