transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Tax Act knows filing taxes can be confusing, so we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like, can I claim my SUV as my home office if I answer work emails in my car? And am I doing this right, or am I doing this very, very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those questions and many others. Tax Act. Let's get them over with.

Speaker 2:
[00:38] Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls Podcast. I'm Sissy Goff.

Speaker 3:
[00:43] And I'm David Thomas, and we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Sherman Bucher is the Director of Child and Adolescent Counseling, and heads up the Summer Experiences at Daystar, where he meets with initial assessments, leads groups, and counsels boys throughout the year. Ever since his days as a youth pastor in Florida, Sherman has enjoyed building relationships with boys, often with a focus on social and emotional development. Sherman speaks in the community and leads parent support groups at Daystar. When he's not counseling, he likes getting outside, savoring a cup of coffee and a good book, and playing with his three kids. Enjoy this rich conversation with our dear friend and colleague, and just a favorite trusted voice, Sherman Bucher.

Speaker 2:
[01:37] Sherman, what a joy to have you back on the podcast. We're so grateful you would do this with us today. Well, you know we trust your voice so much. And are so grateful for your friendship. Both things. Maybe an equal measurement. They might be in a fight with each other. So, we would love, we're excited for you to be talking about voice and what's going on today. And I have learned so much even in some of our meetings in the last few weeks from you about some of the things. And so, we would love for you to talk about with your work from Boys and Families here, what you're noticing right now about voice. Where they're thriving and where you would even say they're struggling the most.

Speaker 4:
[02:17] Yeah, I was thinking this morning on the way to work that one of the things I do think, at least in my office, I'm seeing more than I used to see. And I do wonder like across the board if this is also the case because of our cultures at Boys are more aware that they that they need, like need help. And I feel like I have less defensiveness when Boys come in my office about, yeah, this isn't going well. Like they know it's not going well. But I also like kind of the other side of that is I also think they're really struggling with like what to do about it or how to really move the needle. You know, but I do think across the board, I think the stigma of counseling is just in such a different place than it was 15, 20, 30 years ago that that boys are not embarrassed to say, I got a Daystar or I'm getting checked out of school for my counseling appointment. That it just is more like, yeah, I've got people, I've got coaches in my corner. You know, I do think that's where they're thriving more as a whole. But I think also where they're really struggling is what to do, how to move out into new spaces. That feels really hard. More scared, less confident. Again, things boys I think have always struggle with, but it seems like it's in an increased degree than in my time. I've just seen boys over the years. All right.

Speaker 3:
[03:49] Let's lean into that more scared, less confident part from there. That's a great phrase. So, in Capable, we talk about helping kids move toward greater independence, resilience, and confidence, and competence. When you think about boys specifically, what does capability look like in their world, in your mind?

Speaker 4:
[04:11] I think it looks a lot like being willing to take the next step.

Speaker 3:
[04:17] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[04:20] It was just with a kid recently, and we were just having this sort of fun challenge of like, do you think you can, you know, jump on the basketball hoop and hit the net this high? And then do you think you can do it this high? And we talked about the fact that he hit it, and it was so much more fun to hit it when he wasn't sure if he could, versus when he could just hit it at the lowest easiest level. And so, just taking the step into like, I don't think I can do it, to like, here we go. Feels like, I think that's what capability looks like in boys. I think that's what we're all kind of really cheering them on the most for right now, is just like give it a shot, lean in there. I know I've got voices in my ears over the years that have said the same, like just jump in, we'll figure it out, but like take the next step.

Speaker 2:
[05:09] Yes, that's so good, Sherman. Sherman, in the meeting I mentioned, before, I was learning from you about the messages that it feels like boys are absorbing today, messages that certainly concerned me.

Speaker 4:
[05:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[05:21] As a grown up who loves little guys who are growing into a technology age, will you talk about what some of those messages are, how they're shaping boys, and what you hope for boys to hear instead?

Speaker 4:
[05:34] I think a little bit of what I'm learning more recently is there are a lot of new voices out there that are really grabbing boys' attention. So many boys are on social media and YouTube, and so they're just consuming information at a really high rate, and what they're consuming is sometimes really concerning. We have a phrase that has been jumping around different circles the last year or two, the word Manosphere.

Speaker 3:
[06:07] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[06:09] And as I've leaned into it recently watched a really, I think, telling documentary that really just illustrated who these voices are, what are the messages they're sending, and what's really dangerous both about the message that they're sending and about what isn't seemingly true about the messenger themselves.

Speaker 3:
[06:33] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[06:34] If that's maybe a way to kind of like build a little bit of scaffolding around this conversation. I think where boys are so longing for strength, longing to be seen as valuable and competent and a leader, it seems to be in this sort of Manosphere space, moving to such a extreme version where leadership looks like dominance and strength looks like only in very measurable forms, like how big my muscles are or how big my bank account is. Yeah. Again, probably nothing new under the sun, but it seems like it's got a new flavor to it where it's also, some of the biggest audiences of these voices are 13, 14, 15, 16-year-olds, which is really concerning when you think about where a boy is and who a boy is listening to and the messages that they're taking in.

Speaker 2:
[07:32] Sherman, I mean, as you're saying that, I think, well, I need to see that. And I think anybody who loves Boys needs to probably see the documentary and I think also to be educated on what their sons are watching on YouTube. And so will you say the name of the documentary?

Speaker 4:
[07:46] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[07:46] So we can all do our homework?

Speaker 4:
[07:48] Yeah. I believe it's called Into the Manosphere and I believe it's on Netflix. And I would say it is obviously, I think an adult watch, a parent to watch. And to just, it's got some pretty difficult, gritty topics and even illustrations in it. So I would just say that was a little bit of a disclaimer. But I think it's worth watching from an educational standpoint of this is out there, just like we would look at a document on pornography or a very hard topic to discuss, but one that we don't want to just take a blind eye to and pretend it's not there.

Speaker 3:
[08:22] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[08:23] Sherman, thank you. That's so helpful.

Speaker 3:
[08:25] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:27] Okay.

Speaker 3:
[08:27] Let's keep talking about messages boys receive and absorb. I think boys receive directly or indirectly that strength for a male means shutting down or not feeling. Can I come across unaffected by the world in some way? How would you say parents can redefine strength in a way that allows boys to be both emotionally aware and attuned and truly resilient?

Speaker 4:
[08:53] That's a good question. I know one of the things that we talk a lot about in whether it's group or I'm talking a lot with boys in my office is that to utilize everything is to use the strength of it, right? So kind of accessing every part of a car or every part of a tool, right? Not just the parts that are easy to use or the parts that feel good. And so we kind of talk about that emotional space that the positive and negative side of emotions are all parts and that to access the emotional part of us helps the whole part of us. And so to shut part of it down would be like, you know, shutting part of a car off because it sounds weird or I don't like it, but that really underutilizes the entire purpose or function of the car. And so I think that's one way parents can have a conversation with kids is like, hey, this is a part of you and it's a trickier part of you, especially for boys. And it's a part that may even feel counterintuitive to bring up and talk about or sit with. But it's not the whole part of you. Not all of life is about how you feel. And there's boys in my office that we're working a lot on like, this part of you is kind of over-functioning. And we're working too much at how we feel. And not enough about what are we going to do about it or what do you think about it. But I think for a lot of boys, it is the underutilized part. And we've talked a lot around Daystar, right, to the degree that you can experience sadness as the degree you can experience joy. So that if I only even operate in the upper echelon of emotions, that I'm actually cutting myself off in what I could be experiencing by letting all of it in. So I think maybe some of those could be helpful for parents and just asking questions and acknowledging that it is a very difficult part in a boy to steer and to kind of call in to existence sometimes.

Speaker 2:
[10:45] That's so helpful. Well, we know those emotions are impacting their friendships and we're hearing more parents talk about how friendships are hard for boys. Is that something you're seeing in your office? What are you seeing in your office today when it comes to boys and friendships?

Speaker 4:
[11:00] Yeah. In some ways, I think with younger boys, I'm actually hearing more about it where I think parents are being more intentional about creating atmospheres where boys can hang out and get together and where families are hanging out with other families and that there's this sense of place and friends in the context of my parents are also friends with the family. In some ways, I'm really encouraged because I'm hearing a lot of families who are very intentional about that place in a boy's life. As we sort of hand it off into adolescence and as we should, I'm hearing a lot of boys, experiencing a lot of boys who feel pretty not capable of building a friendship or stepping into a new kind of friendship. Or I've kind of got my two or three people, but I don't really know what to do beyond that. If nothing's being sort of manufactured or sort of set up for them, I think those tend to feel like some lost boys or at least as far as what I'm experiencing at times in my office or in a group setting here at Daystar. But so on the younger end, more encouraged, as we move into adolescence, it seems like it's becoming quite a battlefield for boys.

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Speaker 3:
[16:10] And now back to the show. All right, let's talk about another key ingredient in all of that technology. So gaming, phone, social media, impacting a boy's ability to build deep, meaningful friendships. What are some of the ways you would say parents can help boys move toward more real-world connection?

Speaker 4:
[16:33] Gosh. I mean, y'all, this sounds too simple, right? But like just putting down the devices. Yes. I can't remember exactly what it is. You guys might also know this, but what's the average attention span?

Speaker 2:
[16:50] Now.

Speaker 4:
[16:51] Now versus like, I know, 10 years ago, like it's gone down to something into like eight or seven seconds.

Speaker 2:
[16:56] We're now coming in just behind a goldfish.

Speaker 4:
[16:59] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I, I wonder if that lack of attention or especially with boys are paying attention to all the little things. I had a friend that just reminded me this morning that, do you remember when you couldn't be on the phone and the internet at the same time?

Speaker 2:
[17:17] Oh, yes.

Speaker 4:
[17:18] And just all these like little nuanced things that we don't even think to think of anymore. That a boy's just fragmented attention is really, it's really hurting that space. I see it when I come down to just pick up boys or even in my own family, like dropping kids off at places and just kids attention doesn't seem to be waiting for the relationship. It seems to be like filling the void with something other than.

Speaker 2:
[17:49] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[17:50] You know, I had another counselor here. We had a group a while back that our energy just felt so low. They felt so tired. And I think really what it came down to is they had just been all waiting for a group to start on their phones. And we just sort of talked about the like the mental drain and sludge and then just sort of what is there to really be curious about right now because I'm just sort of kind of zoned out. So I really think one, not the only, but one thing that could really help is just putting down the devices, which is hard to do if we're not doing it as a pack or a community. I know that to be the case. Some parents are like, we're trying, but he's the only one. Or it's not really showing up in terms of other families partnering. But I do, well, I am encouraged that it seems to be catching on more and that more families are waking up to this idea. We're all, as a culture, waking up. I'm waking up to the idea that this really is changing and we need to do something different with it.

Speaker 3:
[18:51] Okay, can I jump in here? I'm going to be the bearer of bad news. Parents, you'll continue to enjoy Sherman and Sissy throughout this episode, and you're not going to love what I'm about to say. But it feels so important to say, as we have this part of our conversation, you just did an interview recently where you were asked the question, I think it was something along lines of, how can I help a toddler transition from being on a device to a next activity and not have a fall apart? And you answered it in this beautiful, thoughtful way that every bit of what you said could be applied to teenagers, could be applied to elementary age kids, like parents, here's the bad news, there is no hack. There is no hack, there is no strategic way you haven't yet stumbled onto. I have had this conversation three times this week with parents of 14 year old boys, and the one mom had a lot of energy. She's like, I'm just saying, tell me how to do it in a way that he doesn't throw a fit. And I said, there's not a way. Like, there's not a way. I mean, to try to dial down some of the intensity, I said to this mom, I said, if you handed me a box of Krispy Kreme and let me have half of one and then took the rest of the box from me, I will not be happy about that decision.

Speaker 4:
[20:12] That is an increasingly frustrating moment versus less frustrating.

Speaker 3:
[20:15] Absolutely.

Speaker 2:
[20:16] That's a great statement.

Speaker 3:
[20:17] And it's that reminder that we talk about all the time on this podcast. Our job as parents is to set and hold boundaries. Kids' job is to push against it. So we want to challenge you to stop believing there's a strategic way to work around that. And I always think back to this great and hilarious mom who I worked with for a lot of years. And she just started the practice in middle school in eighth grade when her kids got phones. And she just continued it all the way through high school. When teenagers came in her house, she just stood at the door with a basket. And she was just like, they're not going to be posting. They're certainly not going to be on devices where they should be interacting. And she would just laughingly say, put them in, and they'd start moaning. She'd say, oh, I think you're going to live. I really do. I think you're going to make it through the night without it. I mean, she was so playful and disarming in it. But what she wisely knew is they're going to grow. And her son before every time would be like, you are the only parent. You are so embarrassing when you do this. She's like, haven't I always been embarrassing? Isn't it tragic how embarrassing your mom can be? She was just playful and strong in how she moved through it. So that would be our challenge in the going forward.

Speaker 4:
[21:27] Yeah, well, and as you said that, David, I thought it is. It is a little bit like we're trying to fit two pieces together that just don't fit. Like, how can I get eight hours of really good sleep and not stop drinking caffeine until 10 o'clock? It's not possible. We're going to have to choose to continue to be frustrated or not be a popular advocate in our kids' life for a minute that we're just going to say no.

Speaker 2:
[21:53] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[21:54] We talk about prioritizing health over happiness in this book over and over.

Speaker 2:
[21:59] You gave me a lot of credit. My not so gracious response was, I think that question is fueled more by anxiety and the parents' fear of what saying no in that moment will do to their relationship. Parents, if you're feeling triggered by what David and Sherman are saying, I would go back to number one, these are two of the men that I trust most in the world when it comes to boys, and number two, I think it's about you. I want you to do your own work on trusting that this is a long game in terms of relationship and knows make them feel more secure.

Speaker 4:
[22:36] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[22:37] Look at all three of us being the bad guy now.

Speaker 2:
[22:38] I know. But we're on your team. We are. Okay. Changing the subject for everyone we're making uncomfortable. We do know that boys need to take risks and test limits, just as y'all are saying, what is healthy risk taking look like? And how can parents create opportunities for boys to build competence without stepping in too quickly?

Speaker 4:
[23:02] Yeah. A couple of thoughts on that. One, taking risks in general, it seems to be something boys are stepping back from or going into a really unhealthy, right? Like so, drinking and driving, those kind of things where we go, I love that your sense that you think you're going to try to do something, but this is not the lane literally to do it in, right? Or I love the idea that you want to push out into the world and test the limit. This isn't the limit to test, you know? And we do a lot of reminding parents that like the personal fable, right? That the developmental milestone that like, it's a good thing, right? It's supposed to push a kid out into a space to go, I think I can. But to go, whether you think you can or not, this is going to happen negatively probably if we go into that.

Speaker 2:
[23:49] And will you say more about what the personal fable is?

Speaker 4:
[23:51] Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Just a developmental milestone, usually between like middle adolescence, you know, so 12 to 18, that the personal fable is, for instance, gravity affects people, but I don't think it's going to affect me today. I'm going to do a double back handspring off the building and I'll be okay. Yes, yes, that's good. The good thing would be that it moves us out into a space of trying new things. The thing to watch out for is it's a lot of times not true or accurate, you know. But where a boy might, in a good healthy risk taking example would be try a new sport. You know, we're talking a lot at group, I'm talking a lot in my office about boys doing things non-preferential, or being trying things in a way or asking parents to challenge kids. Let's see if we can do this, you know, in a different way, on purpose, to arouse like the idea of flexibility or can I do it a different way or can I can I handle a situation differently, you know, but being really purposeful.

Speaker 2:
[24:57] What does non-preferential mean?

Speaker 4:
[24:59] Yeah, I always say it's sort of like I'm right-handed, but like riding with your left hand.

Speaker 2:
[25:02] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[25:02] You know, or I got to boys like today was sort of riding with my left hand cursive blindfolded. It was not fun, but we got through it. And then it comes back to me like, wow, we can do it really a lot of different ways.

Speaker 2:
[25:14] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[25:15] So I think that's one small way to kind of think about it with just having kids and boys begin to take risks. I also think, and I'd love your thoughts too, that are we encouraging kids consistently enough to take risks? You know, even before they hit a stage where they're going to want to take them on their own. Because I know as a parent, watching my own kid take a risk, it pulls up something in me, Sissy, like you said. Like, do I want them to succeed? Am I worried that they won't? Like, my own fear of going, take a risk and bomb the play or miss the tryout. And we're going to be okay, but that's going to do so much for that kid. But I also would say parents, again, me very much first and foremost, what's it bringing up in me that wants him to not maybe take that even healthy risk because of what it might cause or what it might inflict?

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[29:05] That's shopify.com/rbg. Okay, I want to take a turn in a little bit of a different direction as we talk about boys. Let's talk about boys and dads, boys and male figures in their lives. So in your experience, how would you say fathers or other male mentors uniquely contribute to a boy's sense of identity and capability? And what if a dad isn't present, what can fill that gap?

Speaker 4:
[29:36] Boys are looking at who they are and we know that masculinity brings something into the room that femininity can and vice versa. And we're talking a lot about that with two parent homes of this is just a situation that you bring something, dad, that mom, you just you can't and vice versa. So one, I think that is of a concerning thing that so many boys are around peers so much of the time, but that they need not just dads, but older men. You know, I think one of the greatest things I was told to do with my own son was to have him go out and ask other men that I trust of what they think about something that we're talking about. You know, and so I think that even works for dads, whether there's a male in the home or very present, to have that dad or whoever be intentional about putting other men in their lives to go, I want you to soundboard this with so-and-so. And some men that you might even go ask, hey, can we go to coffee and can I ask you a question that I asked my dad? Or my dad said this, I'm curious what you think about it too. I think in a house where there's not that opportunity or there's been a loss, it's the idea of just trying to create a village around a boy, of whether that could be youth pastors, mentors, coaches. Y'all, there's a school that my oldest is at, that almost every teacher in the grade is male right now. And it's unbelievable to me that we're getting this opportunity for him to be surrounded by so many men in a stage where he needs so much of that influence right now. So I just think that the consistent surrounding of not just same age, older, dads, but also grandfathers, lots of different interactions to hear lots of different voices from lots of different generations.

Speaker 2:
[31:38] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[31:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:40] We had a family at Daystar for a long time who lost their dad. And I'll never forget. I mean, I feel like it was grandfathers and uncles and the neighborhood stepped in. I mean, so many men in their neighborhood were very central to the son and daughter's life in a really beautiful way. So, yeah. Okay. So, before you became a therapist, you did it a little later in life. Not late. You're young still. But you spent years as a youth pastor.

Speaker 4:
[32:10] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[32:11] Will you talk about that environment and what it offers boys both socially and spiritually that we might be missing more of today? And how can families recreate or prioritize some of those elements?

Speaker 4:
[32:24] Gosh. Yes. Well, I will say to the two places that I got to do that job in, both walked into systems that had kind of already had a heritage to it, where it was a really, it was a place. It wasn't just an event on Wednesday night or like a brick and mortar, but you got a sense that there was a place for kids. And there was a book years ago, I can't remember the author, I think it was called The Great Good Place, but it was a book about how there was sort of this lost art in America, having that sort of common, like the place where you go after work and just share story and the intersection, right? But that really, I was thinking about that question, Sissy, that really kind of was that for both of those ministries, was it was sort of the great good place for middle school and high school kids to, I mean, places where they could hear teaching, they could play, I mean, play wacky games that we probably can't even play anymore, go on trips, serve, get called out in a good but honest way at times. Like it just sort of had a lot of tapestry to it. And so I would just once say, gosh, we live in such an area. There's so many great places, I think, that do exist for kids like that around us. But wherever parents are, like really finding a place like that in your local church, or we had kids too, that would come our direction. And I had kids that would go other directions. They were just like their friends were at a place and they just wanted to be in long-term connection. So yeah, Sissy, I think it really, it served almost, when you said that, I thought, I leaned on the spiritual piece at first because of my job, but it was actually as much social as it was spiritual. And the spiritual was there and it was all throughout it. But the social piece is what brought kids back week after week after week. And that it was nuanced, it wasn't the same thing and it wasn't just the same muscle being exercised. And there's a lot we didn't get right, but I do think there was a lot of fun in just kind of sharing life on life. Yeah. In fact, I think there was one of the places there was a verse we sort of did the ministry by, something to the effect of like, it's out of Thessalonians, that you'd become so dear to us that we wanted to not only share the gospel, but our lives as well. And so that space of just like, incarnational ministry. And I do think that's a piece that I love about this place, that it's not just solution focus, it's life on life. And that I think kids need, you can feel kids just wanting that, but not knowing where to find it, because I think it's more harder, more difficult with the distractions in front of us.

Speaker 3:
[35:14] Yes. Agreed. We just did an interview with two women who are our age, and we were talking about how formative the experience of Youth Group was for our growing up. Spiritually, socially, emotionally, on every level. And we were recalling all these memories. You are speaking to every one of those realities. And I think the concern that the three of us carry, is that Youth Group is less a part of a lot of kids' lives than the stay-in time. And that so many extracurricular experiences require so much time that it can edge out a family's commitment to that. And it is so incredibly formative. So we are all three such champions.

Speaker 2:
[35:56] Yes, we are.

Speaker 3:
[35:58] All right. For boys navigating identity, belonging and purpose, how does faith play a role in helping them become grounded and capable, in your opinion? What are you seeing that gives you hope in that space?

Speaker 4:
[36:14] I am seeing a lot of boys want to wrestle with their faith or asking questions about faith kind of open and open in a space of not wanting to come in and kind of put a stake in the ground of what they do or don't agree with as much as just like, I want to know more, you know. I've heard more of that this year than in a lot of years.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] Wow, Sherman, that's cool.

Speaker 4:
[36:49] Maybe even in the last quarter, honestly. It's been, it's, as you asked that, I thought this is really showing up a lot, you know, currently. I, I tend to think that the faith piece in part, it's always that thing that we're pushing on teenagers that like your life is, is, is, it's about you and it's not about you. It's about more than you, right? Meaning and purpose. But the faith piece of like, I'd step out and I wouldn't know. Risk. The step out and I'm not alone, right? It feels so, such a, I mean, even the way God would design it, that, that, that in this phase of life where faith would intersect to help you continue to move out and go, you're not alone and it's going to be hard, but I'm with you, that that piece feels so big right now with identity. And I think that's part of where I think the faith or the teenagers in their faith, where I see it kind of working out and where I see them maybe not taking risk and going, it's a, it's a great conversation of like, what is faith in or where is faith? Kind of relying, what are you relying upon? And also the sense that you have, you've got something uniquely in you that the world needs to see. And I say that a lot, you know? And Daystar, so just that, I feel like some of it is even reminding boys as they do have faith that like, also that sense that you can go out and trust that there is something that we need from you, you know?

Speaker 2:
[38:23] As you're saying all this, Sherman, I was thinking about those boys coming in your office and talking to you about their faith and thinking, my hunch is they're not talking to their parents about it. And parents, they adore you still, even if they are rolling their eyes at you some, it's just the individuating piece. And it just circles me back to the importance of boys having males in their lives outside of home that they really trust. And as a parent, whether it's a youth group leader, an uncle or grandfather they spend time with regularly, or if you find a counselor that you trust, they need somebody in their life that they can go to and have these conversations with. Sherman, I'm so grateful for all the boys that you get to be that person too.

Speaker 3:
[39:09] Me too.

Speaker 2:
[39:10] I'm so grateful for you, friend. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible.

Speaker 3:
[39:21] Chris Starritt, our engineer, our management team at KCH, and we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network.

Speaker 2:
[39:29] Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A, and if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing, all the things.

Speaker 3:
[39:43] We are grateful for you and cheering you on always.