transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Tax Act knows filing taxes can be confusing, so we have live experts on hand who can help answer any questions you may have. Questions like, can I claim my SUV as my home office if I answer work emails in my car? If I adopted 12 dogs this year, can I list them as dependents? And am I doing this right or am I doing this very, very wrong? Our experts have the answers to those questions and many others. Tax Act. Let's get them over with.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 3:
[01:00] Gary and Mary Ruth, we've been working on this story for a long time, and we'll tell you right up front that it's going to be hard to swallow at first.

Speaker 4:
[01:08] In 1989, a soft-spoken scientist in Nevada went on local television and said something that would baffle the world for the next three decades. He said that he had worked at a secret government facility called S4, just south of Area51 in the Nevada desert, where his job, his actual job, was to reverse engineer the propulsion system of a craft, a craft that was not made by human hands, a flying saucer, 53 feet in diameter, no seams, rivets, panels, buttons, wiring or controls. Ladies and gentlemen, today's guest is the white whale of American Alchemy guests, the enigmatic and ever elusive Bob Lazar.

Speaker 5:
[02:05] He's a freak out.

Speaker 4:
[02:08] Bob is basically a walking paradox, a human head spinner. He almost feels like an optical illusion of a person.

Speaker 6:
[02:15] Back then, Area51 meant nothing.

Speaker 4:
[02:19] We've now heard a former Director of National Intelligence, who oversaw all American intelligence agencies openly discuss a UFO tracking program housed at Area51 specifically. We've also seen past directors of the CIA, Congressmen and Women, and Whistleblowers across agencies endorsing the existence of a decades-long, multi-generational UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. But Bob is an anomaly. He's on an island. He's still the only person to have gone public claiming he worked directly on a craft of non-human origin. We've speculated about his story for years. Today, we get to talk to him directly.

Speaker 6:
[03:07] They really wanted to see if they could affect the flow of time.

Speaker 4:
[03:10] Did they have a stated purpose for?

Speaker 6:
[03:13] No.

Speaker 4:
[03:16] In this interview, we get to ask him our most skeptical questions about his background, his education, his past, how he knows what he knows, and why he hasn't been forced into silence. John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job. Why do you think it didn't come up in a background check? There are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials. Did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as a liability? But we also ask our most awe-inspiring questions. We learn new details about where the craft he worked on was actually retrieved. We discuss the beings that may have occupied it, where they come from, and what they want with humanity. We even learn about Bob's current home laboratory experiments. He's still investigating the gravity-altering force he encountered while working on a flying saucer in the 80s. You heard me right. Bob is currently working on exotic UFO science in his personal lab. How did the reactor work?

Speaker 7:
[04:22] Through x-rays, we were able to determine that there's a hollow tube.

Speaker 4:
[04:28] But this interview gets even crazier than that. I surprised Bob with a scientist at NASA who's doing his own experiments on anti-gravity.

Speaker 6:
[04:37] What kind of voltage are you using?

Speaker 8:
[04:38] Right now, about 400 volts.

Speaker 6:
[04:40] That's unbelievable.

Speaker 4:
[04:42] I also had the honor of showing Bob legendary, never before seen footage of a UFO at Area51. People have been trying to get their hands on this specific footage for years.

Speaker 9:
[04:56] Ready?

Speaker 6:
[04:57] Yeah.

Speaker 10:
[04:57] I'm going to the beginning.

Speaker 9:
[04:59] Here we go. Holy moly.

Speaker 6:
[05:01] Oh, sh-

Speaker 4:
[05:03] This interview spans multiple days with both Bob and filmmaker Luigi Venditelli, the maker of S4, The Bob Lazar Story. Luigi has spent four years working closely with Bob to depict exactly what he saw and worked on at S4 in vivid, hyper-realistic detail.

Speaker 11:
[05:23] We really, really paid attention to what Bob said throughout the entire time. So we didn't invent anything.

Speaker 4:
[05:32] Without further ado, please welcome this week's American Alchemist, the man who helped reverse engineer a UFO, went public, and lived to tell the tale. The original UFO whistleblower, Bob Lazar. We're living through the biggest transformation of the financial system in 100 years, and most people are still using the same platforms their parents used. I started to investigate the financial space in 2012 because I genuinely believed that the fiat dollar system was broken, not slightly broken, structurally, fundamentally broken. It's what you might call a long con, or perhaps a Ponzi scheme. I started to believe that a transparent, decentralized alternative wasn't just possible, it was necessary. I've spent 13 years researching it, living it, talking to the most serious minds building it. Kraken is the platform I kept coming back to with my own money. So when we finally decided to bring on our first ever financial sponsor in four years of doing this show, we went to them. Because I've used the product and I already believed in what they're building. Every other investing platform is essentially the old system with a better app on top. Kraken is different at a foundational level. They've been operating since 2011 through every market crash. Shout out Mount Gox. Every industry collapse, every moment other platforms failed their users. And when everything went catastrophically wrong in this industry, the people responsible for making customers whole didn't go to the biggest names in finance. They came to Kraken. On top of that, they publicly prove, not promise, prove that every dollar you deposit is fully accounted for. Anyone in the world can verify it at any time. No fine print, no blind faith, just proof. You can buy stocks in crypto in one place, earn better rewards than any investment account you've ever had, and send money anywhere in the world without those annoying fees your bank charges you for the exact same thing. Again, I've never taken on a financial platform as a sponsor in four years of this show. Having full control over your money shouldn't be about belief. It's the whole point. So go to kraken.com/aa to learn more and get $25 in Bitcoin. Again, that's kraken.com/aa, double A. Owning the power of your money isn't just a belief. It's the whole point. One of the main reasons I'm able to go multiple hours on these podcasts while staying mentally sharp is because of this little drink. It's a product I started using years ago, and it's called KetoneIQ. I know the founders, Jeff and Michael, personally, and I was thrilled when they agreed to sponsor the show because it's one of the few products I trust to give me clean, sustainable energy. I've been taking a little shot of this thing during every long recording, and it lights my brain on fire. As you can see, Bob even took a shot during this one. The reason I keep coming back to these products is because I don't really do coffee. Coffee gives me a spike of energy and then at some point I get jittery and I crash. KetoneIQ is fundamentally different. It gives you clean, steady mental clarity with no crash and no jitters. Here's the science behind why it actually works. When you're running on glucose or sugar as your brain is most of the time, it's essentially burning dirty fuel. Your brain could be like a Ferrari, but you're feeding it 87 octane fuel all the time. Ketones are what your brain actually prefers when it's operating at its best. Normally, you'd have to fast for days in order for your body to switch from glucose to ketones. This little shot of KetoneIQ gives you the ketones directly, so your brain runs the way it's supposed to without any spikes or crashes. It was originally developed through a multi-million dollar Department of Defense contract for elite cognitive performance under stress. Bob Lazar probably could have used that at S4. So the same technology that's used by soldiers in high demand environments is now available to anyone in the form of this little drink. So visit ketone.com/alchemy for 30% off your subscription order, plus receive a free gift with your second shipment. That's ketone.com/alchemy for a whole 30% off. Or find KetoneIQ at Target stores nationwide and get your first shot free. Bob Lazar, I don't even know what to say. This is a make-a-wish day for me. This is an absolute honor. I'm so grateful for you being here. I have so many questions for you, because there are a lot of people who say they've seen things in the sky, or they've had ephemeral experiences, sometimes even with beings. There are very few people who have consistently held to the exact same story over the last almost four decades now. It involves working on a craft and essentially reverse engineering or parallel process engineering, what is a craft of non-human origin, an exotic craft. You are really one of one. I can't wait to dive in. I just want to thank, before we start, Luigi Vendettelli, who is the amazing creator of this movie that you are in.

Speaker 7:
[11:33] Physical evidence now exists, which proves that there is life elsewhere, and at least one form of that life has been here.

Speaker 4:
[11:42] I want to start with your childhood, and what was little Bob Lazar like?

Speaker 6:
[11:47] I guess he was like a little scientist. I mean, I wasn't into sports at all, still aren't. Instead of playing with toys, I take apart clocks and things like that, that my parents had and put them back together. I was just very inquisitive.

Speaker 4:
[12:05] Were you a rule-breaker at all?

Speaker 6:
[12:07] Yeah, for the most part. I really had a problem with authority. So I really didn't matter if it was my parents or teachers, whatever telling me what to do. I said, I just don't recognize your authority to tell me that I can't do what I'm doing. And yeah, that just seems to be part of my DNA.

Speaker 4:
[12:27] Yeah, it seems to be a running theme in your life. So the authority felt sort of arbitrary to you. It's like, why are you in a position to have any power over me?

Speaker 6:
[12:34] Right, right, right. You're not even, you really don't even understand what I'm up to. And you're already trying to put the kibosh on it here. So no, go away and leave me alone.

Speaker 4:
[12:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you have any interest in UFOs, aliens, anything like that as a kid?

Speaker 6:
[12:50] No, no, no. I thought that was all silly. No, I was always into science and science fiction. When I was a little kid, I watched, I think, like Five and Six. I watched the super marionation series, like Fireball XL5 and Thunderbirds, and they were all like marionette shows, but they're all space and cool and rockets, and this is all great. And then later on, Star Trek, science fiction because it always looked like that it was just a prediction of the future to me. It didn't look like it was stuff that was never going to come true. It just looked like eventually the stuff's going to happen. And for the most part, science fiction turns into science given enough time.

Speaker 4:
[13:39] Becomes science fact.

Speaker 6:
[13:40] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[13:41] Were there any inspirations sci-fi wise that you felt had a real impact on you as far as what you were interested in as a kid?

Speaker 6:
[13:53] Everybody my age, a boomer that's an engineer, doctor, scientist, whatever, they'll always point back to Star Trek and always give that a nod. Yeah. So that was probably the biggest thing back there in the 60s and 70s.

Speaker 4:
[14:07] Yeah. And so where did you grow up?

Speaker 6:
[14:09] Well, I was born in Florida, but most of my growing up, I was cognizant of what was going on, was Long Island, New York. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[14:19] Interesting. You ended up at Pierce, is that right? Or what was the progression from childhood?

Speaker 6:
[14:26] I just moved around. Okay. It depends where I was at the time when I went California and on the East Coast. So it was just location dependent. Like I mentioned the other day, I moved so much. Yeah. It was almost like a military family.

Speaker 4:
[14:45] Yeah. Was it because your dad had jobs, then he was switching around or what was going on?

Speaker 6:
[14:50] I really don't know what it was, but we were just always moving. Yeah. Interesting. Always having to make new friends and whatnot. But I don't know. It was just the way it was. My father always did some weird things, it's strange things up his sleeve, so I don't know what was going on. Yeah. I think there was some potentially shady stuff going on in the background.

Speaker 4:
[15:18] Interesting. Okay. What did he do professionally, just like surface level?

Speaker 6:
[15:25] I know he had some connection to the mob at some point. I mean, he had a food business, wholesale food business that distributed food to grocery stores all over the place, but there was a big connection to racehorses. I mean, I remember when I was a little kid of the, what do they call it? Harness racing, where they sit in a little sulky behind the horse, little two-wheeled contraption. I remember those guys, the jockeys, riders, whatever you want to call them. But I remember playing in the living room and hearing those guys deciding who's going to win the race and things of that sort. So I knew that there were some shady things going on. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[16:19] Whenever you have racehorses and tracks, there's often some money laundering.

Speaker 6:
[16:24] It was down in the early 70s and stuff. It couldn't be more corrupt. Absolutely.

Speaker 4:
[16:31] Interesting. Okay. So he was involved in that, but maybe there was some other stuff going on in the background.

Speaker 6:
[16:37] Yeah. I think where people are hurt or anything like that. Not mob stuff.

Speaker 9:
[16:43] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:44] But just some questionable things.

Speaker 4:
[16:48] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:49] That we never talked about.

Speaker 4:
[16:50] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[16:50] So I mean, we did move around a lot, but spent most of the time either in, well, it really depends what year I was somewhere.

Speaker 4:
[17:02] Were you into nuclear science as a kid as well, or just kind of science generally?

Speaker 6:
[17:07] No, just science. I mean, I had a friend whose dad was a chemistry professor, so we'd go and hang out with him and bring home chemicals and play with him. But from as young as I could possibly be, was always tinkering around with something science related.

Speaker 4:
[17:28] Yeah. So at school, what was that like? You're this rebellious kid, you're into science. Did you hate school?

Speaker 6:
[17:36] Yeah, I hate school because it's just interfering with my time. I want to get home and get back to tinkering with my stuff. You couldn't bore me any more than I was. I didn't want to go to a music class. I don't care what they're doing here and on everything of social studies. I don't care who won what war, just let me go home. I've got other things I'd rather learn. But the classes that I was in that match my interest, I did well with. But everything else is a waste of my time.

Speaker 4:
[18:08] What were you tinkering with at home?

Speaker 6:
[18:10] Probably at that time, probably electronics and chemistry.

Speaker 4:
[18:14] Okay. Then how did you get the job at Los Alamos?

Speaker 6:
[18:18] At the time, I was working at Fairchild Electronics in Simi Valley, California. I was just tired and burned out of that, and just sent a resume to Los Alamos. But really laid heavily on the stuff, not my work history, things that I did aside from work. I took my wife's little Honda, built a jet engine from scratch, and put it in there. Then in fact, that was one of the things I sent in a resume to them. Oh, by the way, I built this car. When I moved there, the local paper put that on the front page, because they thought that was really cool. That's why most people remember me at that time, because I drove it to work at Los Alamos. In fact, they yelled at me for, you can't run the jet coming into the lab, because it scares the shit out of everybody.

Speaker 4:
[19:17] How fast would the car go?

Speaker 6:
[19:19] 212.

Speaker 4:
[19:20] Jesus.

Speaker 6:
[19:20] Yeah, on that car is super dangerous. I would never do that.

Speaker 4:
[19:23] That's insane.

Speaker 6:
[19:24] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[19:25] But so you're putting a Bugatti engine on a Honda Civic.

Speaker 6:
[19:29] Yeah, in a way.

Speaker 12:
[19:30] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[19:33] Yeah, it's silly, but you're stupider when you're in your 20s. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[19:36] Well, what was your top speed?

Speaker 6:
[19:38] 212.

Speaker 4:
[19:39] Yours was 212.

Speaker 6:
[19:40] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[19:40] You went 212.

Speaker 6:
[19:42] El Mirage Dry Lake in California.

Speaker 4:
[19:43] You're insane.

Speaker 6:
[19:46] Maybe, but that's how fast the car went.

Speaker 4:
[19:49] But the Honda Civic is not set up for the jet engine that you put on.

Speaker 6:
[19:55] Well, it was after I put it in there.

Speaker 4:
[19:58] So you helped with the suspension and some of that stuff you improved. Wow. That's impressive, man.

Speaker 8:
[20:04] That's cool.

Speaker 7:
[20:07] Well, while working at Los Alamos National Lab in 1982, the local newspaper did a front page story on a jet car I had built. Coincidentally, Dr. Edward Teller was giving a speech at Los Alamos that same day.

Speaker 4:
[20:22] So Edward Teller, for the audience, was the creator of the hydrogen bomb.

Speaker 6:
[20:27] Coincidentally, that same day on the paper, if you turn over the front sheet, was the advertisement for Ed Teller coming the next day.

Speaker 7:
[20:36] Wow.

Speaker 6:
[20:36] Giving a lecture at the lab, so.

Speaker 4:
[20:42] So you go to a talk he gives or something?

Speaker 6:
[20:45] Yeah. He was about to give a talk. I got there early. He's sitting outside reading the paper because the door was locked. I wanted to go super early too, because I thought maybe it's going to be crowded or whatever. He's reading the front page of the paper because or else I really didn't know how to go out and say anything, but I went, oh, it's the perfect segue. He's already reading about me, so I was like, hi, Ed, I'm the guy you're reading about there.

Speaker 4:
[21:12] What was Edward Teller like?

Speaker 6:
[21:14] He's a grumpy old man. That's the only way I could describe him.

Speaker 4:
[21:19] Did he have any distinct accent or facial look?

Speaker 13:
[21:23] Of course he has a distinct accent.

Speaker 4:
[21:26] Ed Teller, yeah. Yeah, a bit thick Hungarian.

Speaker 6:
[21:28] Yeah, he had giant eyebrows. He looked exactly like himself.

Speaker 4:
[21:33] Yeah, fascinating. So what was the conversation like? Are you like, hey, that's me? Then what did he say?

Speaker 6:
[21:40] He said, well, that's fascinating, but I can't remember verbatim, but he said.

Speaker 14:
[21:46] But it is grossly impractical.

Speaker 6:
[21:49] I said, yeah, it's not made to be a practical mode of transportation. We only spoke for a short time and then you can hear the door unclick, swing open and a guy greeted him, oh, Mr. Teller, and so they brought him in. That was that. But as time went on, I made reference to that meeting when I sent him a resume after I had moved on from Los Alamos, and he remembered me, and that's who directed me to EG&G, how this all started to go to S4.

Speaker 4:
[22:25] Have you ever seen there's a video of Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you? Yeah, yeah, of course. Because first of all, he's being questioned on nuclear propulsion, and he doesn't want to get into it.

Speaker 14:
[22:40] It's very clear.

Speaker 4:
[22:41] And then he's questioned on you, and he has the exact same reaction.

Speaker 3:
[22:44] It is in my opinion not interesting. I don't intend to answer it.

Speaker 14:
[22:50] If you ask me that question on camera, I will shut up. I will sit silent. You're not going to get an answer.

Speaker 3:
[22:57] I don't mean that.

Speaker 14:
[22:59] Okay.

Speaker 13:
[23:02] And if I ask you on camera if you know Bob Lazar, can you just say no?

Speaker 14:
[23:06] I will sit silently.

Speaker 6:
[23:12] I mean, I spoke to the guy before he went and interviewed Teller. He was one of Teller's students. And he said, you know, I'm going to bring up you to Teller. And I went, that would be awesome. Yeah. And it would be awesome to see how fast he denies me, you know. And he did immediately.

Speaker 4:
[23:32] But he denied you in the same way. First, he goes, yeah, technically you could get, you know, a real power source from nuclear. And basically implying he knows a lot about it, but he's not going to talk about it.

Speaker 6:
[23:43] Yeah. I think he said, is there anything other than fish and refusion?

Speaker 4:
[23:47] That's right.

Speaker 6:
[23:47] No, nothing that anybody interested about. Yeah. But there's total annihilation, you know. And yeah, he just completely discounted that, which is interesting for Teller.

Speaker 4:
[23:58] Do you think that he is talking about, because you talk about this 115, you hit a proton.

Speaker 6:
[24:03] I don't know if that's who he was referring to.

Speaker 4:
[24:06] And then you get this matter, anti-matter annihilation thing.

Speaker 6:
[24:08] I don't know if that's what he was referring to, but he's also, but he's clearly not addressing the most powerful nuclear reaction there is. And why would he do that?

Speaker 4:
[24:18] And he's clearly also denying the nuclear knowledge in the same way that he's denying his link to you. Which to me is such a tell that he obviously met you.

Speaker 6:
[24:29] Yeah, it's really weird that he would do that.

Speaker 4:
[24:33] And so you were at Los Alamos, and were you working with other physicists at the time, or what was your main kind of like day-to-day responsibility there?

Speaker 6:
[24:44] Well, it changed. I did some, I was building, I think, this was for the particle accelerator. They wanted to be able to trim the voltage to a very fine degree. So I was building some high-voltage power supplies, stuff that's insulated by fiber optics, so you can make adjustments from a distance without interfering with the electric fields or anything. And day-to-day, there was just maintenance on the targets and experiments we were doing. So it's cryogenics and dealing with high-power magnets. And I mean, what else? Radioactors, materials, Los Alamos stuff. I mean, I'm just trying to remember what I did every day, but there was no really regular routine. We'd either be working on getting ready to do an experiment. So we'd be working on, you know, the detection equipment.

Speaker 4:
[25:50] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[25:51] Or setting up the experiment. And it all had to do with, you know, the output of the accelerator and adjusting that.

Speaker 4:
[26:03] So this was a particle accelerator?

Speaker 6:
[26:05] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[26:06] Oh, interesting.

Speaker 6:
[26:07] Yeah, it's a half-mile long linear accelerator in Los Alamos.

Speaker 4:
[26:11] Oh, cool.

Speaker 6:
[26:11] And the beam splits off. It comes down and it splits off into different experimental areas. So you can conduct a whole bunch of different experiments, you know, just from one beam. And they can put different things in the targets to make different particles and go different directions. And depending on the speed of the particle going by and its spin, and how long it's in transit, you can calculate its mass and, you know, backtrack and then put things together. And, you know, the analogy I always gave was it's like if you wanted to analyze a Swiss watch, but you really couldn't look inside. But so you could take it and throw it as hard as you can at a concrete wall.

Speaker 7:
[26:58] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[26:59] And then it busts apart and all the pieces go flying off.

Speaker 7:
[27:02] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[27:02] Well, by looking at those pieces, you could backtrack everything. You could see if one was spinning a certain direction, and you know the rotation and how fast it came off, then you know the mass of it, if it was turning before. And by the angles, you can put it back there, and eventually you can reassemble the thing and see how it was made just from the particles flying apart. So essentially, we would have an accelerator to smash something apart, and then we can figure out how it all goes together just by monitoring those particles.

Speaker 4:
[27:32] That's so cool.

Speaker 6:
[27:34] Yeah. So I mean, that's what I did at Los Alamos.

Speaker 4:
[27:38] Did you get the sense that there were two branches of science, science that was a little more classified, and then public science?

Speaker 6:
[27:47] No, not at that point.

Speaker 4:
[27:48] Not at that point?

Speaker 6:
[27:49] Not at that point. I thought we were all on the same level.

Speaker 4:
[27:51] Yeah. Now, I know you can't say why they erased you from MIT, and there are a lot of people out there who say you faked your educational credentials. You have very good, I think, reason that at least passes Joe Rogan and some other people who I really trust their sniff test.

Speaker 5:
[28:11] He said that he was working on something for the government, and they sent him to MIT to learn something.

Speaker 4:
[28:21] But I will ask you, is there anything you can say high level that hints at why you can't talk about why you were at MIT?

Speaker 6:
[28:29] Well, I was sent there, okay? And if you're sent there for a specific reason, maybe to do some classified research or work. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[28:47] It's going to be off the books.

Speaker 6:
[28:49] Yeah. I mean, but it's also, you also can't talk about it because it's still, I mean, look, the government's never going to come and prosecute me for, at least I hope not, for releasing information about S4. Yeah. But assuming I was working on a weapon system, that's still covered under the security agreement. And at this point in my life, I just don't want to make any waves.

Speaker 4:
[29:17] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6:
[29:18] So.

Speaker 4:
[29:18] No, I think that's very reasonable. It's also, I should note, and this is me talking and not you, MIT Long is a university affiliated research center. It's called the UARC, and they do all sorts of classified stuff. They have a super soldier program. They were always at the forefront of nanotechnology. And so the idea that-

Speaker 6:
[29:40] Well, anything I would have potentially been working, I wouldn't be so outlandish as super soldiers, or it'd be just very conventional. Sure. But still classified material.

Speaker 4:
[29:54] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[29:54] Touch and stuff.

Speaker 4:
[29:56] I think it's just helpful because this stuff is circulating out there, and the idea that you would get sent to that school specifically and work on something that you can't talk about is very feasible.

Speaker 6:
[30:08] I'm not saying that I did get sent, but if I would have gotten sent.

Speaker 4:
[30:11] Theoretically, hypothetically. Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[30:13] You got sent there.

Speaker 4:
[30:14] If I got sent there, there's a very clear possibility I wouldn't be able to talk about it, and I'd be working on some classified stuff.

Speaker 3:
[30:22] If you wanted to hire a guy who could think clearly, out of the box, and help solve problems, but who could be discredited if you needed to do that, Bob was probably the best person in the country at the time. He was perfect for it.

Speaker 4:
[30:40] George Knapp was originally this very instrumental part of Breaking Your Story in 1989 as part of KLAS. You took him to Los Alamos, is that right, at some point?

Speaker 6:
[30:51] Yeah. I told him all this Los Alamos stuff, and I said, well, let's go there. I'll show you. Security was a little more lax back then. We got in a plane, and we just ran into a car. At that time, everyone I knew still worked there, so including the guards, we're going to be like, hey, Bob, you're back. We're in, and just took George everywhere. There's my desk, here's this, and walk in here, and I still knew combinations to places. I'm sure it was not all 100 percent legal, but yeah, George just walked around, filmed everything, spoke to people that I worked with, and he said, all right, we can check that box off, and then we went back.

Speaker 4:
[31:41] Yeah. And so, because I also, again, I want to address some of these detracting comments circulating online. There are people who are like, oh, he just quizzed the physicists at Los Alamos, but he really had some other job there or something. First of all, like your description of a particle accelerator and how to actually detect subatomic particles, I think was first class. And then second, you have a guy in George Knapp, which you have to either accuse him of some sort of collusion or something in his orientation towards you, or admit that you showed him around people near your name. No, I mean, George will verify that. He saw it. Yeah. And clearly, he was trying to suss you out by asking you to invite him, right?

Speaker 6:
[32:30] Yeah, I just don't pay attention to the detractors and the nonsense. I mean, to me, we're past that.

Speaker 7:
[32:41] I never met Dr. Teller again, but in 1988, when I decided to re-enter the scientific community, I sent him a resume and inquired about a job. Dr. Teller responded by telephone and told me that he was no longer active, but just functioned in a chief consultant capacity. He gave me the name of a contact to call in Las Vegas. I made that call and things progressed from there until I got into the program at S4.

Speaker 4:
[33:04] So you sent him the resume and he remembers you somehow.

Speaker 6:
[33:08] Yeah, because I made mention of the jet car in Los Alamos.

Speaker 4:
[33:12] Then he sends you a resume to EG&G and then you get a job there?

Speaker 6:
[33:16] I don't know if he sent it. When he did reply to me, he gave me contact information for EG&G. So I don't know if he said, or just have a look at this young man or something like that, or if he did send the resumes. I don't know what happened behind the scenes.

Speaker 4:
[33:35] Did you know anything about EG&G at the time?

Speaker 6:
[33:38] I know they did measurements. They did all the, I mean, those are the guys that came out and figured out a photograph an exploding nuclear bomb without it getting overexposed. They did all kinds of things, make giant flash tubes so you can photograph cities from bombers and stuff. So that's about all I know. I knew they were just a contractor that did weird stuff for the government, but leaning heavily in the nuclear testing area.

Speaker 4:
[34:11] It's a company that is the namesake of Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty actually.

Speaker 6:
[34:18] Edgerton, Grimmerhausen and Greer.

Speaker 4:
[34:20] There you go.

Speaker 14:
[34:21] Many types of cameras will be in use. The most important are fast tacks, which operate up to 9,000 frames per second and expose that entire footage in a fraction of a second.

Speaker 4:
[34:33] Have you looked at any of the other, you know, obviously you're really into nuclear, and then you worked on UFOs. There's this amazing book that I always cite that I'm sure you're aware of, Luigi, called UFOs and Nukes by a friend of mine named Robert Hastings. And he talks about UFOs like Tic Tacs, Saucers, Orbs, all these different shapes and sizes of UFOs showing up at nuclear bases all across the US.

Speaker 6:
[34:57] I certainly heard that.

Speaker 4:
[34:58] Isn't that interesting? There are 167 whistleblowers who are on what's called the PRP program, where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen because they're guarding the crown jewels of American defense.

Speaker 6:
[35:09] Oh, really?

Speaker 4:
[35:10] 167 of these guys.

Speaker 6:
[35:12] Wow, there's really 167 of those guys?

Speaker 4:
[35:15] 167 of these guys. It's really why they have teeth.

Speaker 6:
[35:19] Yeah. That's incredible.

Speaker 11:
[35:21] I mean, that should be investigated further. And I'm sure it is, but not publicly. But I mean, you're talking about nuclear sites. If you're talking about nuclear sites, you are at the very core of national security.

Speaker 4:
[35:36] So my point is, is if you're doing the photography of that early on, you've got to have some asymmetric knowledge of UFO stuff. That would be my guess.

Speaker 6:
[35:46] Yeah, they were the guys documenting and photographing everything from every angle, from everywhere. So if, in fact, all that stuff was going on, EG&G had to catch something.

Speaker 4:
[35:56] Totally. And EG&G, it keeps coming up for me, too, in my own investigations. Even there's this thing called the Wilson Davis Memo, where the scientist who actually lives in Austin, his name is Eric Davis, meets with the head of J-2 Joint Chiefs, under whose purview is all military technology, a guy named Admiral Thomas Wilson. And they're in the parking lot of EG&G, and Thomas Wilson is, like, furious that he doesn't have oversight over this specific corporate program, which seems to be reverse engineering exotic UFO material. So you get a job at EG&G. What's your first touch point there? And so you have a little bit of context, but...

Speaker 6:
[36:42] Yeah, I originally went in there. I didn't know what the job was. But they interviewed me for that. And somewhere in the middle of it, they said, you know, we actually have a different job that we're thinking of plugging you into now. I think I went to the bathroom, and when I came back, they said, we're changing channels. We think we have. And I think, so I don't know if they were both something at S4, or something else is going to be for EG&G, or the Department of Naval Intelligence, and then they thought maybe S4 would be a better fit. I don't know what, again, what went on behind the scenes, but there were two jobs there and they decided I'd be better off with the second one, and the second one was S4 out at the Papoose Lake area.

Speaker 4:
[37:32] What were they screening for? What do you think they were asking you and trying to get at? Then when you go to the bathroom, why do they shift and they say, this guy is actually going to, that UFO thing we're stuck on, this guy is going to break it wide open, he could be a good hire there.

Speaker 6:
[37:50] I don't think that's what they said. I think they were stuck and I think they kept, just because of the way the place is arranged, they kept trying to attack the problem from the same direction all the time, which is only going to yield the same result. In fact, if you expect it anything else, you're nuts. Why is the definition of crazy, right? Doing the same thing and expecting different results. But yeah, most of their questions was not about my technical knowledge or work experience. It was what I did after work. You know, like the projects I built, why did you do that? I think they were just looking at trying to find somebody that was outside of the box.

Speaker 4:
[38:46] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[38:47] And I think that's where I fit because before that, you had really straight-laced scientists, physicists, technicians, you know, that abided by the rules and all that. And they looked, we need a little push from another direction. And I mean, it's my guess. I think that's why they popped me in there.

Speaker 4:
[39:04] At that point, do you have any idea what you're getting yourself into?

Speaker 6:
[39:06] No, no, but they said it's at a remote area and the work hours can vary. Some people are out there for two weeks on, one week off. Yeah. And it depends if they're married or not or anything and can spend that much time out there. Some people only go out three days a week. And some people are just on call. And for the time being, it would probably need you sporadically going out there on call until we get you up to speed. And do you have any problem with traveling? I said, no, no, no. So I thought, wow, if it's out in the desert, it's probably, I thought it was, the only thing I knew about the desert was, at that time, it's a nuclear test site. So I thought it was weapons related and specifically nuclear weapon related. And I was going to be at the nuclear test site, at somewhere, you know, station near Mercury. The way it worked was they'd call me at random days, and they'd say, Mr. Lazar, it is now such and such time. We need you to come out today. So I'd go out there. I drive out to EG&G Special Projects, which was right in McCarran Airport at that time. I'd go to a little security there, and then out on the tarmac and board one of the Janet flights. They were only used by the government for going back and forth to the test site.

Speaker 9:
[40:35] 363, Las Vegas Tower, runway 263, line up away, traffic downfield.

Speaker 6:
[40:42] Yeah, we just took off and landed. Yeah. I still thought I was at the- I didn't know what it was, Area51.

Speaker 4:
[40:51] Yeah. You land at Area51? Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[40:56] First of all, at that time, Area51 meant nothing. It's just this is known as Area51, okay? As all the test sites split up into areas, it's Area2, Area5, so it's 51, okay.

Speaker 4:
[41:09] At what point do you go to S4?

Speaker 6:
[41:13] I've told this story so much and it's been so long. All the days mix and infuse into one now, so I can't separate what you did on that day. What did you do on the third day? I don't know.

Speaker 4:
[41:28] Of course.

Speaker 6:
[41:29] But I don't think we drove down on the first day. I think it was just a paperwork and stuff day. But the second day for sure, we drove down, got in the bus, and it was a long bumpy ride. The windows were blacked out on the bus, and it was just a navy blue painted bus. It seemed like we went south. By the time we got there, we got off the bus. I mean, the sun was setting to my right.

Speaker 4:
[41:56] Then what happens next?

Speaker 6:
[41:59] Well, I mean, you mean when I got there? Yeah. That's where Dennis led me in.

Speaker 4:
[42:07] Who's Dennis for the audience?

Speaker 6:
[42:10] I guess you can call him my supervisor, but he was my shadow and everything. He was just attached to me.

Speaker 4:
[42:17] This is Dennis Mariani.

Speaker 6:
[42:18] Dennis Mariani.

Speaker 4:
[42:19] Yeah. So he leads you in?

Speaker 6:
[42:22] Yeah. He leads me in. There's a guard there. We get past him, and then they had to train the hand reader to give me a card to open the doors. So that's the first time I saw that hand scanner. I get the card, he shows me this, you swipe on the door and it records every time you come in and out and do everything.

Speaker 4:
[42:45] Is there a bodyguard or like a-

Speaker 6:
[42:48] No, once you're in the room with the scanner, there's nothing. There's just a door you open up, but it's just a really long, really long corridor and it's not modern, looks old. It's just painted cinder block with light green and dark green. Looked like my old kindergarten or something.

Speaker 4:
[43:05] It's this vast expanse and is all of it underground or in a mountain?

Speaker 6:
[43:10] It's on the side of a mountain. So the hangers are right on the side or it's a hill, I guess, however you want to describe it. So the hangers are there and then the corridor is in back of the hangers. So that gives you hanger access. There were nine hangers and they're fairly big. So that explains why the corridors were so long.

Speaker 4:
[43:34] So you're in there, you see this vast expanse. Then what happens?

Speaker 6:
[43:39] We went to review the briefings first. So that was off to the right. We came in, there was a desk there, somebody had already laid out all the briefings, which were summaries of the projects going on. So they didn't go in-depth. But in case your project connected to some of these in some way, you had to have a brief overview of what else was going on. Project Galileo was the first briefing on there.

Speaker 4:
[44:12] That was your project?

Speaker 6:
[44:13] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[44:13] But you had other briefings as well?

Speaker 6:
[44:16] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[44:17] And that was Project Looking Glass?

Speaker 6:
[44:19] Looking Glass and Sidekick.

Speaker 4:
[44:21] And Sidekick. Okay. So I imagine you take most interest in Galileo, but you also look through Looking Glass and Sidekick, is that right?

Speaker 6:
[44:30] But Galileo dealt with the propulsion system of the craft and the directives that are given. There were two primary directives. There was one to duplicate the propulsion system or components thereof with available materials, available earth materials, and so on. And directive two was to be able to remotely disable the operation of the system. And I don't know how it was worded. Somewhere the word at all costs was in there. So that was really a high priority, but they certainly wanted to duplicate it, but they really wanted to disable it.

Speaker 4:
[45:18] I do think that's an important distinction in the mandate of the program. It's to not necessarily reverse engineer, but to parallel engineer. Find ways to, with terrestrial, normal prosaic engineering, build what-

Speaker 6:
[45:35] Or come up with a hybrid system. The bottom line is, we want to produce the effects this machine is having, so just do it.

Speaker 12:
[45:47] However you can.

Speaker 6:
[45:49] Just do it.

Speaker 4:
[45:50] Which makes sense given the skill set they seem to take interest in with you because you are this outside of the box thinker. You're not this prim and proper traditional academic or something, who does not want to break rules, who might be extremely high IQ, but isn't necessarily rebellious in the way they think within these narrow confines they're given.

Speaker 6:
[46:16] Yeah. They were just looking to come at another angle and maybe we can uncover something.

Speaker 4:
[46:22] Just for the audience, what is Sidekick and what is Project Looking Glass?

Speaker 6:
[46:27] Sidekick was the weapon potential of the craft. The craft, if you're familiar with it, has three of the emitters on the bottom, look like large trash cans, and they send out the gravity waves or whatever form of energy is. But, excuse me, Sidekick dealt with using those to focus a particle beam, to stop it from diverging. So it appeared to be there was some weapon potential of doing that.

Speaker 4:
[46:59] Like a directed energy weapon.

Speaker 6:
[47:02] Yeah. I think it was a particle weapon. So I don't know what the source was, but that's just what the briefing contained in it.

Speaker 4:
[47:13] Are you given any other context before reading these documents? No. When you're reading these documents, what's going through your mind?

Speaker 6:
[47:22] I mean, some of the stuff in there was just nonsense. I mean, and you wonder- Like what? Is this like a test? There is stuff like the aliens had made 65 corrections to in the evolution of humans and things. As Barry explained to me, he said, look, they keep everything classified here, but if somebody says something and they hear it on the grapevine, they said, yeah, they've got a disc, an alien craft down at the test site. They don't know where it comes from. But everybody that they give briefings or information to, they put unique nonsense information there. If I had said anything, they said, yeah, there's flying saucers down there and aliens made 65 corrections. They go, Lazar is the guy that. So I think they put it in there to attach to a person, he got this and they make it something enticing to say.

Speaker 4:
[48:26] So you go through these briefings, what happens next?

Speaker 6:
[48:29] At some point, I went to the nurse who, it was the only female that was there. She said, we have to do an allergen test. I guess they had a bunch of samples from different materials. They do a little grid on my arm and then just pricked them and waited for a reaction. They gave me something to drink, which is supposedly supposed to boost my immune system. It was a deep orange-yellow color, and I think that was because the vitamin B was in there, and I can taste that because it's really a nasty taste.

Speaker 4:
[49:07] What did it taste like?

Speaker 6:
[49:08] Yeah, like a vitamin B solution. But it did, but it also had a pine taste to it. But anyway, that was that. I wasn't allergic to anything as it turned out, and eventually, I go in and was introduced to Barry, who's going to be my lab partner. From what I understand, I was replacing somebody that he worked with.

Speaker 4:
[49:33] What was Barry like?

Speaker 6:
[49:34] Barry, I don't know. How would you describe Barry? Barry was very enthusiastic.

Speaker 4:
[49:39] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[49:40] He was really happy I was there, and really excited to show me stuff. But clearly, a lot had been done before I got there.

Speaker 4:
[49:49] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[49:50] If this was new, everything would be white, right? Everybody will be in. You always want labs and everything white in case you see a little speck of dust or a part falls somewhere you can identify them. You wouldn't have wooden lamp or lab benches and things like that. You'd probably have people in full respirator suits if they're just beginning. But these guys had reached a point where it was nonchalant, where they were touching, working with this stuff and it really wasn't a thing. They were taking apart a car engine. So they had made a lot of progress and they weren't afraid of what they were working with, although we were plenty afraid of the reactor.

Speaker 4:
[50:39] At no point were you like, this could be some anti-gravity secret program that I just wasn't cleared to.

Speaker 6:
[50:47] No.

Speaker 10:
[50:47] Okay.

Speaker 6:
[50:48] I mean, initially, when I first saw it, I went, that's what this whole thing is about. It's just our new fighter and it looks like a flying saucer. So that's why people believe in flying saucers because they see these new fighters flying around. But yeah, it became quickly obvious that that wasn't the case. We have no idea how the thing works. It does stuff that's physically impossible, and there's no country in the world could make something like that, or have the power density that it has. It's inconceivable. So to affect space and time, think of another country was able to build something like that, but the United States wouldn't exist.

Speaker 11:
[51:34] To anybody who's a detractor, who could think maybe this was a US object, something man-made or something that they put there as a prop. Some people would say, do you think they were trying to deceive Lazar or other people and all that? Because I built it, there's one physical aspect of it that is impossible to build, period, 100% not possible, is it's as far as if we have to consider it being a 50 to almost 53 foot diameter craft, the main level, which is the level that Bob was able to access and at one point stand up in the middle of, that main level is in the center of the disc and there is nothing that was visually witnessed on the bottom level when he peeked, that is a supporting column holding that 53 foot diameter floor. We have nothing on earth. There is no material.

Speaker 6:
[52:42] You know, that's the first I've ever heard of that angle. That's really interesting.

Speaker 11:
[52:47] That's right. Well, it's because I built it.

Speaker 6:
[52:49] I think you know more about the craft at this point.

Speaker 11:
[52:52] Because of the thickness of the floor that we could see, because of the lip of the access way, we could see the thickness of the floor. Also, where the honeycomb hatchway is, you could see the thickness of the floor. That thickness.

Speaker 6:
[53:08] Yeah, 52 feet diameter.

Speaker 11:
[53:10] There is nothing on earth.

Speaker 6:
[53:11] It's no central support.

Speaker 11:
[53:12] That would not be doing boring like this and potentially collapse. There's nothing. We have nothing.

Speaker 4:
[53:20] That's a completely unique structural anomaly.

Speaker 10:
[53:24] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[53:26] Good job, Luigi. Yeah. No, I never even entertained that.

Speaker 4:
[53:33] That's fascinating.

Speaker 6:
[53:34] Yeah. That's great. But that's 100 percent true.

Speaker 11:
[53:38] Yeah. There's nothing that can do that.

Speaker 6:
[53:40] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[53:40] That's so interesting. What is the color of the craft itself?

Speaker 6:
[53:46] It's a pure stainless looking, but Luigi and I were talking about this the other day. It looks different close up than it does far away.

Speaker 4:
[54:03] Describe. Well, how so?

Speaker 6:
[54:05] Jeez, I wish I could. I've tried to describe this a lot. What's interesting is that my friend, Gene Huff, who was my kind of confidant at the time and I tell him about this stuff. I said, one of the weirdest things is if you're close to it, it looks like the craft and when you get far away, it doesn't look right. It looks more like a cartoon. So Luigi is spending two and a half or three years modeling this and getting it in, and sure as hell, whatever they did, Luigi will probably best tell you about that. When they take the camera and they put it in the hanger and look at it close up, it looks like it should, and if they back it off, it doesn't look the same. It looks so they were able to, whether intentionally or accidentally, duplicate it. They've got the model so close, that it's taken on some of the characteristics of the actual craft.

Speaker 4:
[55:12] There's a part of the craft that you describe as blacker than black.

Speaker 6:
[55:15] Is that right? Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[55:17] What is that?

Speaker 6:
[55:18] Yeah. You know what they call the portholes around the top?

Speaker 10:
[55:21] Sure.

Speaker 6:
[55:22] I do not believe are portholes. What I think there's a black ring that goes around the top part of the craft, and we call that the insulator ring. Above that, I have no idea what's in that top section, but that's where these small square slash rectangular holes are around. They are assumed to be like some sort of planar array, where there is something similar to a computer in the top section, and those arrays determine whether it's looking at starlight or whatever. It determines its place in space, but they don't look black. They look so black, and it's not just vantablack. They almost look like bottomless pits in there, but I know they're solid. I mean, Barry told me they're solid. I guess I don't know. Barry claimed they're solid, so to be technical, I don't know for a fact. I mean, but I still think there's some kind of sensors, but that is some unusual material. When you go in there and look at the craft, it's a real ominous, creepy feeling, and a lot of it is because of the black. It doesn't look right.

Speaker 4:
[56:45] Did anybody else say that going into the craft gave them an ominous feeling?

Speaker 6:
[56:50] Yeah, he did say it was definitely unnerving, I think was his word, looking at those.

Speaker 4:
[56:57] Just being in the craft generally, was that a ubiquitously known thing at S4? You walked into that thing.

Speaker 6:
[57:04] I didn't hear that from anybody, but it certainly was for me.

Speaker 4:
[57:07] Interesting.

Speaker 6:
[57:08] Yeah, because the first thing you think, boy, that must have been so exciting. From an outsider, it might be, but no, when you're really there, it wasn't exciting. It was really frightening.

Speaker 4:
[57:20] You walked around what looked like the cockpit of this thing?

Speaker 6:
[57:25] First of all, you can't just walk in. It's much smaller and narrower than you think. You have to crawl in and you really can't stand up until you're almost right in the center. It's really all unusable space. Even if you're a small creature, there's a lot of unusable space in there. Because everything seemed to have a critical function to it. I'm sure there was nothing for decoration. There's a reason to have all that space and the reason the craft is shaped like that. But there were three things that look like seats. We call them seats, other humps, large rectangular smooth objects in there. There were three of those. We know those to be the amplifiers. They work with the reactor. It amplifies the gravity wave and it's channeled to the emitter, which is right under the amplifiers. Again, we just called the seats because they look like seats. I think it would be funny if it turned out that they were not seats at all. Yet another component we just knew nothing about.

Speaker 11:
[58:39] Bob always found it to be really weird that when the waveguide is applied right on top of the reactor, these two guys, they're looking out. There's one of the archways that become transparent. He believes that maybe that is where they're looking. But this guy here is staring at a pipe.

Speaker 4:
[59:00] The archway becoming transparent is so they can see. It's so interesting, I never made that connection.

Speaker 11:
[59:07] Yeah, they're looking at it and there's a screen that appeared, the blue screen with the symbol.

Speaker 4:
[59:13] With the Korean language.

Speaker 11:
[59:15] And then I've always thought and I thought maybe they all become transparent. Maybe the whole archway, all the archways can become transparent. Why would it only be one? Because it's so dark in there.

Speaker 4:
[59:29] Fascinating. And you saw a translucent, almost Korean looking symbols, is that right?

Speaker 6:
[59:36] Yeah, I saw the wall become translucent. And at some point saw some kind of what I would call symbols. But not in a three dimensional way, not on a flat screen or anything like that. Yeah.

Speaker 11:
[59:53] Explain how you saw it because you were explaining it to me yesterday.

Speaker 6:
[59:56] Yeah, it wasn't like it was a screen. It was just like it was a three dimensional character sitting in there.

Speaker 11:
[60:03] Like a projection, you said.

Speaker 6:
[60:05] Yeah.

Speaker 11:
[60:07] He was explaining it to me yesterday because he explained it actually better yesterday than before I produced it. And you were saying it looked almost like a projection on that area.

Speaker 6:
[60:20] It wasn't a projection or was on something. It was just a three dimensional thing in the air.

Speaker 4:
[60:29] Describe the day that you saw this thing fly.

Speaker 6:
[60:33] It was already out. Barry and I were in the lab and then Dennis came in and he said, hey, why don't you guys come? We're doing a test flight. You know, so this is great. So we go out through the lab door right into the hangar. It was already outside, sitting on the ground. And shortly after we got out there, I did notice there was a radio, and I mentioned this in Luigi's movie, a VHF radio and communication. So it made me almost positive that there was somebody in the craft. Yep. I don't know where they'd be sitting or why they're even in the craft, because like I said, it's so uncomfortable and usable space, they'd have to be hunched up or trying to sit on the edge of one of those seats. So that put aside.

Speaker 4:
[61:30] So you think they put a person in there?

Speaker 6:
[61:32] I think so because they were communicating back and forth.

Speaker 4:
[61:35] You hear a voice?

Speaker 6:
[61:37] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[61:37] Wow.

Speaker 6:
[61:38] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[61:39] You heard a voice coming from the craft.

Speaker 6:
[61:41] No, from the radio.

Speaker 4:
[61:42] From the radio, from the VHF radio. But presumably coming from the craft.

Speaker 6:
[61:46] Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[61:47] Wow.

Speaker 6:
[61:48] Yeah. So he was monitoring. I mean, they must have had some other instrumentation set up in the crafts because he was monitoring something.

Speaker 4:
[61:55] Do you remember what the voice? That was it just-

Speaker 6:
[61:56] Not a thing.

Speaker 4:
[61:57] But it was something.

Speaker 6:
[61:58] Yeah. I mean, I was more stuck on the fact that how is a radio wave getting into the craft? This doesn't even make any sense.

Speaker 4:
[62:06] VHF being very high frequency? Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[62:08] I mean, it should be distorted by the gravity wave going around it. Anyway, shortly after the craft began to lift off the ground silently, had a little corona discharge glow on the bottom, and lifted off and drifted up into the sky and moved around. During that test flight, Dennis motioned for me to come out and look up at it. Then he told me to walk forward and the craft was just sitting there stationary. And I walked out underneath it and he motioned for me to look up. I looked up and I couldn't see the craft. So I thought it flew away. And then he said, you know, come back. And, you know, I walked back and I just walked back. It caught my attention. I see the edge of the craft. So if you move, you can see it. And if you walk underneath it, you can't. So you can clearly see it's, it's bending the light. You can see the sky above the craft. So you can see that it's in its little envelope. And then it kind of slid over to the left and right and then sat back down.

Speaker 4:
[63:23] Is what you saw, did it look like what we talk about when we talk about UFO videos and what we, you know, it's just like, look at the Nimitz, you know, 2004 FLIR video or, or even some of the, and maybe a better example, some of the optical videos which are often grainy and fuzzy. And maybe that's due to gravitational lensing or some sort of space-time perturbation due to these effects that you're talking about. But when you're seeing this craft fly, are you thinking, this is the UFO stuff that's like in the lore?

Speaker 6:
[63:54] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[63:55] You are. Wow.

Speaker 6:
[63:57] Yeah, for sure. I'm just because of the, the way that it can move. It can just negate. I mean, it's, I really don't know how to describe it. I mean, things like inertia really don't matter to it. It just, it gets away with murder when it comes to flying.

Speaker 4:
[64:23] Did you ever think we are being tasked to figure out this reactor, even like, you know, the shape of the craft is sort of really confusing to us? How the hell do they know how to fly this thing?

Speaker 6:
[64:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[64:42] That goes through your head? Like, you're like, are you, are you, are you?

Speaker 6:
[64:44] Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, like I said, you know, clearly they've, they've had a lot of time with this craft already. It could have been decades, for all I know. So they're familiar with it. So, I mean, they, they knew the emitters have to be rotated, you know, to couple to the reactor. I mean, they knew how to fly it. So these guys were somewhat proficient with it.

Speaker 4:
[65:09] But so it would be your kind of base case assumption that now we have functional, what you might call, alien reproduction vehicles or UFOs that humans can fly. If in 1987, 88, you had stuff that was, you know, we could at least test and you could go under them and stuff, then you would think that now we've probably made much more progress, I assume? Or what do you think?

Speaker 6:
[65:37] I do not think so, no.

Speaker 4:
[65:38] You don't think so?

Speaker 6:
[65:39] No.

Speaker 4:
[65:40] So you think we're, we can test these things and use them in a rudimentary ways, but we don't understand how they work at it?

Speaker 6:
[65:47] No, it's like the, you know, analogy I gave, you know, you can go back to the 1800s and drop off a motorcycle. With the keys in it and, you know, you can look at it and go, wow, that's never seen anything like that before. And look at the plastic fenders on it. And, wow, that's unusual material. And, you know, there's the key. And eventually, if you tinker with it long enough, someone's going to turn the key and it's going to start.

Speaker 4:
[66:15] Yep.

Speaker 6:
[66:15] And they're going to go, okay, we turn it off. And you go, all right, that's on and off. And, you know, eventually, just given time and human ingenuity, they're going to get it, it throttles here, and they'll become proficient at driving it. But when it runs out of fuel, we're done. And when it comes right down to it, they can't even make that plastic fender.

Speaker 3:
[66:36] Right.

Speaker 6:
[66:38] So, yeah, I say you can become proficient at using it. And I think that's where we are. We had some knowledge of that. But I think, I think if we had developed that technology, we would have absolutely already seen it. We wouldn't be wasting one minute building a conventional fighter or other. Why? Why would you? And they say, oh, well, it's secret.

Speaker 4:
[67:02] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[67:03] So, jet engines were secret when we first came out with them and we built a whole fleet. You know, we'd absolutely divert every resource we had to duplicating these things.

Speaker 4:
[67:15] Do you guys think there's any chance that the craft is flown with somebody's mind, some sort of mental?

Speaker 6:
[67:21] It could very well be. Yeah. Because there was obviously no physical controls to it. Right. When the craft was being tested, the only test I saw from close range, it was already out of the hanger. When I went into the hanger, the bay doors between all the hangers were open. They had big, there's the door that leads to the outside, that's at an angle, but there's also big bay doors between all the hangers. Those were open for some reason. When I came in to go witness that, I was able to look down and see that, boy, there's nine of them all the way down there.

Speaker 4:
[68:05] What's going through your head and emotionally? How do you feel?

Speaker 6:
[68:08] First of all, where did they all come from? I could see you found one somewhere. There's the crash or whatever, you found one. You don't find nine. I mean, where did they come from? None of them are damaged to any degree. Although, when I call the top hat, it had holes in it, but it looks like it was shot with a projectile. But it wasn't damaged from crash or attempted landing. So where did all this stuff come from? There's so much missing to the story.

Speaker 4:
[68:43] Did they all look like the exact same replica?

Speaker 6:
[68:46] No. Each one was different. But the material all looked exactly the same. The color, the sheen, so it looked like they were all made of the same material.

Speaker 4:
[68:58] So the reactors and the propulsion were all the same, the material was all the same, but the shapes were somehow different. Do you remember?

Speaker 6:
[69:06] I mean, maybe they're specialized craft. You can take a step back from humanity and you go look at all the cars driving around. Well, you got a truck, that's a real long thing. You look at a Volkswagen, that's like a little, you see a motorcycle. But they all have the same somewhat type of engine. Internal combustion engine is powering them all, so they must have all different functions. Maybe that's just what we're looking at. Who says they're all men? Maybe some of those things are drones of some kind.

Speaker 4:
[69:36] People associate you with the kind of Billy Meier sports model, like the craft that looks like that.

Speaker 6:
[69:44] It looks exactly like that.

Speaker 4:
[69:45] Exactly like that.

Speaker 6:
[69:47] I thought Billy Meier was absolutely ridiculous, because I've seen some of the pictures, and this is what I mentioned to you the other day, the UFO researcher syndrome. I think the initial pictures Billy Meier took of the sport model looking craft are 100 percent genuine. There's no way that there could be another one of those that just coincidentally looks exactly like what I call the sport model. So I think he absolutely photographed that and it was real. I think at the time he got a lot of attention, and he printed books and everything, and I think as time went on, he missed that, and then he started making some models and taking some new pictures, and the other pictures look ridiculous. They do. It looks like-

Speaker 4:
[70:39] There's something about dinosaurs in his book.

Speaker 6:
[70:42] Yeah, I know, and it looks like there's Styrofoam balls all into it. Yeah, I found some more pictures. Come back. And so I think that's just a personal belief. Yeah. There's no way you can tell me that those original pictures aren't genuine. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[71:02] And so that's the craft. You worked on the eight other crafts. What did those look like?

Speaker 6:
[71:11] I could only see two clearly because from the angle, all you can see is just a little piece and then all you can just see is the hanger out there. But one looked like what I call a jello mold, which is more like a bundt cake without the hole in the middle. And then the other one, as I previously mentioned, a top hat like a carnival top straw hat and the brim had a hole in it.

Speaker 4:
[71:39] Is your immediate instinct humans didn't make these?

Speaker 6:
[71:43] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[71:45] At what point do you not see like an American flag on one of them?

Speaker 6:
[71:51] Yeah, on the sport model, I saw that like the first day that I went in.

Speaker 4:
[71:56] Okay. Was there any talk of how these crafts were retrieved?

Speaker 6:
[72:03] I mean, I know the Navy got the sport model, and I think from what Barry said, that was an archaeological dig, which by the way, isn't in the desert, it's in the water. If there's another term for an archaeological dig that's in the water, I don't know what it is. I thought it's still a dig. But yeah, I don't know what body of water, if it was the ocean or lake or what. But yeah, that came from the water. Again, according to Barry, I didn't see this in documentation. But yeah, that was happened upon by the Navy. That's all I know. I just theorize that's how the Navy got in control of everything.

Speaker 4:
[72:47] That's what you constantly hear is, you have things like Hughes Aircraft building the Glomar Explorer, which subsea discovery, and you have some actually more recent Lockheed subsea, super subsea submarines and drone things that seem to be able to scan the seafloor. There's a great book called The Silent War by John Pena Craven, and he was high up in the Navy, and he talks about retrieval of exotic technology on the seafloor. And I wonder, you know, you have Tim Breschett as a congressman from Tennessee who says there are five hotspots in oceans all around the world.

Speaker 10:
[73:31] You know, we think they're coming in from way out. Maybe they did millennial ago, but they're here and they're in these deep water areas. And that's why, I mean, like we say, we know more about the face of the moon than we do what's going on there. And we have a higher propensity of sightings around these five or six, I believe, deep water areas.

Speaker 4:
[73:55] And I don't know, there's another, I have one friend in the Navy who's, you know, anonymous source, maybe one day we'll do an interview, but he talks about the movie, The Abyss by James Cameron.

Speaker 6:
[74:05] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[74:06] And he says maybe that scene where, you know, this sort of glowing object shows up isn't too far off from the truth, so.

Speaker 6:
[74:14] Look, one of our science fiction movies is going to be correct.

Speaker 4:
[74:17] That's right.

Speaker 6:
[74:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[74:19] That's a safe bet.

Speaker 6:
[74:20] Yeah, one of them is.

Speaker 4:
[74:22] Yeah. And we were talking last night with Luigi about Pascagoula, Missouri was the site of the production of nuclear subs for the Navy. And you have a famous case there of some fishermen who, you know, experience an alien abduction and have a UFO experience.

Speaker 6:
[74:39] Yeah, there's something going on with the ocean. There is. It's been from the very beginning.

Speaker 4:
[74:44] George Knapp has interesting footage around Baja, Mexico. On the other side, you have Tampere, which seems to be a hotspot. You have the Caribbean, Bahamas.

Speaker 6:
[74:52] Yeah, I think it's all these guys who are hiding out.

Speaker 4:
[74:55] That's exactly. Do you think there's a possibility it's, you know, the ultra terrestrial hypothesis? So this is this idea that they are ancient remnants of, like, an anti-diluvian civilization that existed pre-Ice Age or pre-underdress.

Speaker 6:
[75:09] An anti-diluvian?

Speaker 4:
[75:10] Yeah. And that they're more advanced than, they're like the place of what we call Atlantis, are these beings who have coexisted, co-inhabited the earth with us.

Speaker 6:
[75:19] It could, it really could very well be. And if you just look at the size of the ocean, you can hide an entire civilization down there. And it will, especially if they're immune to the effects of the ocean, just got to be deep.

Speaker 4:
[75:33] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[75:33] We'll never find them.

Speaker 4:
[75:34] Would any of the scientific principles that you looked at, as far as the bubble being created around the craft and all of that, somehow be immune to saltwater? Like, would it be able to travel transmedium? Because that's one of the...

Speaker 6:
[75:46] Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4:
[75:48] That's so interesting. Because that's the observable...

Speaker 6:
[75:50] Why bent around the craft? I'm sure a raindrop would do.

Speaker 4:
[75:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fascinating.

Speaker 11:
[76:04] I've been involved in this whole thing since 1987. And since the 80s, or even before, let's go even all the way down to the 60s, everybody always talked about the US.

Speaker 3:
[76:15] Air Force.

Speaker 6:
[76:17] And Project Blue Book.

Speaker 11:
[76:18] And Project Blue Book. I mean, Bob Lazar comes out in 1989 and says, they weren't crash saucers, they were intact craft, and it's the Navy that's in charge. And funny enough, 40 years later, that's what people are talking about. So, you know, when I see the new whistleblowers come out, like Eric Davis or people that we're seeing, I'm not skeptical at the fact that they were involved in something. What I find very, like, basically, very interesting is that they're all saying exactly what Bob said in 1989, but they never say Bob Lazar is possibly factual.

Speaker 6:
[76:59] Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[77:01] Well, there's...

Speaker 6:
[77:02] Bob has nothing to do with that. But everything he said is right, though.

Speaker 4:
[77:06] They said that they're, like, high level. There's definitely a decades-long, multi-generational crash-retrieval operation. But the one guy who says he's worked on a craft is someone else.

Speaker 11:
[77:16] No, no, yeah. That makes sense.

Speaker 6:
[77:19] Everything is right, though. I believe there aren't that many crashes. There just aren't that many crashes.

Speaker 4:
[77:25] Well, if you had to guess how many crafts are in US possession now in hangars.

Speaker 6:
[77:30] Now? I don't know. I mean, nine.

Speaker 4:
[77:34] Nine for sure.

Speaker 6:
[77:35] Yeah, yeah. That's it. I mean, I can only talk about what I've seen.

Speaker 4:
[77:40] Do you think they have a sense of ontological tree? Like when you see all this stuff around the ability to manipulate timelines with looking glass or even just manipulate time on a local scale, and then they're saying that they found these things at archaeological digs under the ocean. Do you have a sense that they have like a metaphysical model that's like greater than the average citizen? So it's like their origin story of humanity.

Speaker 6:
[78:10] Maybe.

Speaker 4:
[78:11] You think maybe?

Speaker 6:
[78:12] Yeah. I think there's a good chance of that.

Speaker 4:
[78:14] Is your kind of Occam's razor explanation that these are extraterrestrials? Do you think they're time travelers? What do you think?

Speaker 6:
[78:22] I think that's all equal. I mean, there's just as much chance that they're time travelers, visitors from another dimension, us from the future, or aliens. I don't see anything pointing in any specific direction. I go with the aliens just because we've seen it so much in our movie. I think we're just trained to think that, and it's palatable. You can see other worlds. This can go travel in another fashion and get there. There's probably life there. They probably build things, and it all makes sense. But when you go to other dimensions in time, well, can you even time travel at all? I mean, will that ever be possible? Maybe, maybe not. How do you get here from another dimension? Why would you care? Why would you go to another dimension and start hassling people over there, you know? So, I mean, the other things don't make sense. So yeah, I guess the Occam's razor is aliens. But it could be any one of the other possibilities, or one that we haven't thought of that's just completely ridiculous.

Speaker 4:
[79:31] What do you think was the top speed?

Speaker 6:
[79:35] Of just conventionally moving?

Speaker 4:
[79:37] Yep.

Speaker 6:
[79:38] I don't think it really had a very high top speed.

Speaker 4:
[79:42] Really?

Speaker 14:
[79:42] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[79:44] Like if you had to-

Speaker 6:
[79:46] I mean, it depends on how it was being, because you can maneuver it in a couple of different ways. So of course, how would I know? I mean, the speed it could attain. But I'm just thinking about an Omicron mode where it's just sitting there and moving. But you think about- Yeah. At Delta, the speed is going to be near infinite. It's going to appear somewhere else.

Speaker 4:
[80:16] You think almost close to the speed of light, or it would look like it's hopping across space-time or something?

Speaker 6:
[80:21] No, it would far exceed the speed of light.

Speaker 4:
[80:23] It'd be faster.

Speaker 6:
[80:24] Yeah, because you're not going in a linear fashion. You're just jumping over. Wow.

Speaker 4:
[80:29] Because it's warping space-time itself.

Speaker 6:
[80:31] Yeah. So for a given distance, you'll get to the destination far faster than you would if you were traveling.

Speaker 4:
[80:38] And it's like crunching space-time behind it and then in front of it, it's like riding a wave or something.

Speaker 6:
[80:47] It's just bending space around it.

Speaker 4:
[80:49] Did you hear anything around pulses involved in the propulsion?

Speaker 6:
[80:54] Yeah. It's not a continuous. It's like it pulses. I don't know what the maximum range of each jump is, but I know it's like a 10 millisecond recycle time in between it. So the craft is always doing this.

Speaker 7:
[81:11] When all three of the amplifiers are being used for travel, they're in the Delta configuration. And when only one is being used for travel, it's in the Omicron configuration.

Speaker 4:
[81:20] You guys do an amazing job of depicting the configurations. And so what is Delta exactly?

Speaker 6:
[81:26] Delta is using the three, there's three amplifiers, Delta.

Speaker 7:
[81:29] Yes.

Speaker 6:
[81:30] And that's where they all focus together on a destination. Okay. The craft puts its belly in that direction. And that's how it moves.

Speaker 7:
[81:39] Okay.

Speaker 6:
[81:39] The Omicron is where it only uses one, you know, are the emitters to propel itself or it's not really propelling itself, it's doing the opposite. Essentially create an indentation in space time so the craft moves forward, which always gives it, if it's operating in Omicron configuration, it's never really stable. It's kind of a, you know, somewhat undulating movement, you know.

Speaker 4:
[82:12] It's so interesting. And yeah, it's fascinating. That seems to be a common thing, the craft wobbling. Yeah, this wobble.

Speaker 11:
[82:20] Right.

Speaker 6:
[82:21] But when it switches to Delta, as soon as the two other amplifiers come on online, that thing locks in space and time, and then it's, you know, able to focus in any direction and move there instantaneously.

Speaker 4:
[82:46] Logan.

Speaker 6:
[82:47] Oh, all right. What's up?

Speaker 4:
[82:49] It's good. You're in our mid-century living room set. You have Luigi Vendittelli, Bob Lazar, and Logan is a long time UFO nut.

Speaker 6:
[83:02] Okay.

Speaker 4:
[83:03] And you watch WWE at all?

Speaker 6:
[83:05] No.

Speaker 4:
[83:06] He is the guy in WWE right now. He has an amazing podcast as well. I've known his brother actually for like a decade plus.

Speaker 12:
[83:13] Dude, I gotta say, Bob, it is an honor to meet you, man. Absolute legend.

Speaker 8:
[83:17] What a privilege to talk to you.

Speaker 6:
[83:19] Oh, thanks. Good to meet you.

Speaker 12:
[83:21] I don't know if Jesse gave you any context to why I wanted to talk to you.

Speaker 4:
[83:25] They have a bit, yeah, but maybe we can rehash it.

Speaker 9:
[83:28] Okay. Okay.

Speaker 12:
[83:30] So Bob, check this out.

Speaker 9:
[83:32] Okay.

Speaker 12:
[83:33] I have in my possession UFO footage that has a story behind it that is compelling but not convincing. And I've been waiting to just do something with this footage or receive confirmation of sorts. And I see this particular orange disk sometimes in UFO videos and documentaries. I'm watching it. It pops up every now and then. But when I was watching the trailer for S4 that you guys released, about 80% of the way through the trailer, you guys show a disk that is at night, but then kind of coats itself in this orange.

Speaker 6:
[84:13] Right. Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Speaker 12:
[84:16] Dude, I paused it there and I said, oh my God, that looks exactly like the footage that I have. So this footage, supposedly authentic, was taken by two college kids who wanted to go to Area51, in the 90s, I believe it was 1995, and filmed their experience of trying to see if they could stumble upon a UFO or just alien activity of sorts.

Speaker 4:
[84:47] Let's break this down. A couple of college-age guys drove out to the black mailbox, an infamous landmark entrance point to Area51. It's along the road that leads to Groom Lake, extremely close to where Bob said he worked. It's night time. They're parked right in front of the fence surrounding the secret facility. The lights are off on their car, and they have a camera resting on the armrest, pointed through the front windshield.

Speaker 12:
[85:17] And then it cuts to under the dashboard, and you see something very clearly illuminating, like the top of the dashboard, and they're like hunkered underneath the car, and they're whispering to each other, like, I think it's out there, like, I don't know what it is. Maybe we should go out, and they're like kind of scared.

Speaker 4:
[85:42] Then something appears just beyond the glass. The craft is hovering extremely close to the car. It's orange and slightly wobbling or undulating in place, as if it's on a wave. You can hear the two guys whispering.

Speaker 14:
[86:07] Look at the top there. Over there.

Speaker 11:
[86:29] Yeah, that to me is exactly how it was described by Bob. It's exactly like you're handed.

Speaker 6:
[86:35] You're handed. It's moving the right way. It's the right color and it's the right shape. So it makes it very compelling.

Speaker 11:
[86:47] The intensity of the light, there's something very, very bright that is affecting that. The dash is being lit. It's the dash of the vehicle and the craft is above it. And look at the intent, here's the dash, and look at the intensity of the light that's going to happen here.

Speaker 10:
[87:04] Right. Whoa.

Speaker 11:
[87:06] There. Those are really... Yeah, and it's fading in and out and it's moving out there.

Speaker 6:
[87:13] You can see that it wobbles exactly like your film.

Speaker 4:
[87:16] It wobbles. That's the important thing. Yeah, so it does comport with your video.

Speaker 6:
[87:20] It wobbles, it glows like that in that color, in that shape.

Speaker 11:
[87:24] That's wild, dude.

Speaker 6:
[87:26] Yeah, I mean, it's wild. It's impressive. It is.

Speaker 4:
[87:35] The craft emits an orange-reddish color, which is not a coincidence. A craft with strong field interactions like the ones that Bob alludes to, creates an ionized plasma sheath around itself. The dominant atmospheric gas on Earth is nitrogen. Ionized nitrogen that interacts with plasma glows red-orange. This classic observation of a glowing reddish or orange ball of light moving silently and erratically is one of the most commonly reported UFO descriptions across decades of sightings worldwide.

Speaker 2:
[88:11] No, what? Did you see that movement?

Speaker 4:
[88:12] No, I didn't. Logan has been sitting on this footage for almost a decade now, and I'll spare you the crazy details as to how he obtained it. But he's obsessed with UFOs and thinks this video should be out for the benefit of the public. Now, I know this footage is grainy, and while certainly fascinating, it's far from conclusive, but it is another fascinating data point. What Luigi's movie almost definitively vindicates is the existence of S4. Remember, when Bob went public in 1989, Area51 itself hadn't even been officially acknowledged by the government. And to this day, S4's existence is still denied. It's not supposed to exist. But Luigi used Google Earth's historical imagery to go back in time and found a 2022 version of the area surrounding S4 that was not yet blurred to obscure the site. And yet, vehicle tracks are visible in these older satellite images.

Speaker 11:
[89:24] You can clearly see the tracks. Look at them going in every direction. And you can look at all the traffic.

Speaker 6:
[89:31] Yeah. Right. That's not one guy driving around.

Speaker 11:
[89:33] No, that's not one guy driving. Exactly.

Speaker 6:
[89:35] And there's no public out there. So what are you doing?

Speaker 4:
[89:40] Luigi also shows Bob a high-quality aerial photograph taken by a pilot roughly 17 miles from Papoose Lake. The image had previously circulated online, but Luigi enhanced the contrast a bit to reveal additional details.

Speaker 11:
[89:55] And if you look carefully in this version here where the contrast has been changed, as we zoom, look what you see.

Speaker 6:
[90:07] Yeah, you can start seeing the...

Speaker 11:
[90:09] You see them clearly right there.

Speaker 6:
[90:11] Yeah, the slanted rectangular doors, yeah.

Speaker 4:
[90:14] Finally, and perhaps most damningly, the map of Papoose Lake was literally altered eight days after Bob Lazar went public in his first anonymous video. You heard me right. They changed the map eight days after Bob started to speak out. And the map was clearly modified in a way that would specifically hide the existence of S4.

Speaker 11:
[90:36] Bob went public on May 15th, 1989. And he didn't come public. His name wasn't public. It was him as Dennis in silhouette. And eight days after that, the United States Department of the Interior, who works on the geological maps of the landscape at the test site, where it's Groom Lake, Papoose Lake and the whole Nevada Test Site, actually modified all the maps there, specifically Groom Lake and Papoose Lake and Papoose Mountain Range there. And there's a stamp on all the modifications because the modification was dated 1989. So on the actual small print, it says maps modified 1989. But the stamp of the exact day is May 23rd, 1989, exactly eight days after Bob went public.

Speaker 4:
[91:42] And specifically, they are getting-

Speaker 6:
[91:44] Just Papoose Lake.

Speaker 4:
[91:45] Just Papoose Lake. So they're removing S4.

Speaker 6:
[91:47] No.

Speaker 11:
[91:48] What they remove- The specificity there is the specific thing they removed, is there is a road that leads from Groom Lake down to Papoose Lake. And as it leads down to Papoose Lake, the north end of the lake, the road forks out, it splits off in two areas, to the west of Papoose Lake and to the right of Papoose Lake, where S4 is. They specifically removed the road to the east of Papoose Lake and they kept the same one to the west, which, why would they do that? Why would you suddenly remove the road that goes to S4?

Speaker 6:
[92:28] And leave everything else there.

Speaker 11:
[92:29] And leave everything else there.

Speaker 6:
[92:31] Yeah, that is an amazing discovery.

Speaker 11:
[92:33] Yeah, and it's there. I mean, it's not like, we're not making anything up here. I was very specific of like, I don't want to put anything that makes us look like we're inventing stuff. This is verifiable. You could order these maps.

Speaker 4:
[92:48] The other thing I think that's interesting is for people doubting the story, Jeremy Corbell and Ross Coulthardt found a bunch of people who have verified Bob's presence at S4, right? I don't know if you have as well.

Speaker 6:
[93:04] I think arriving at 51 or getting on the bus or something.

Speaker 4:
[93:07] That's right.

Speaker 6:
[93:08] Yeah, I think they found a bunch of people.

Speaker 11:
[93:10] George Knapp also had some people and they got threatened back then. They were six people that were threatened and basically they never made it forward. George talks about it in the interviews we did with him and he's talked about it in the past. He says, they all received the phone call, they were all threatened and they never went public. For anybody who is a Bob Lazar detractor or doesn't believe the story, you then have to not believe George Knapp because why would George lie about that? What's the benefit here? Somebody is going to say, well, it's because he put his name attached to the Bob story. No, not when that was happening. He was still investigating the Bob story. He said that back then. It's not like it's new information.

Speaker 6:
[94:00] Well, he was getting a lot of shit. Yeah.

Speaker 11:
[94:02] He was getting a lot of shit.

Speaker 6:
[94:03] Being involved with the story back then, it was certainly not a feather just sticking his cap.

Speaker 11:
[94:08] It's something I really want to put a lot of emphasis on because of all the haters out there. This happened when he came out. It was in 1989. It was a different era. It was a different time in the world. So the people now that think that Bob Lazar is a grifter, or I'm a grifter because I'm making a movie about this and whatever. This happened 40 years ago. I was interested in UFOs 40 years ago and believe me, I was not popular. This was the most unpopular topic when it came out. It was considered to be so, don't touch that because it's going to ruin your life. So first of all, why would Bob Lazar do that? Then why would George Knapp, a respected investigative journalist in Las Vegas, who already was well-known and had a good job, why would he hang his reputation and ruin his entire career just to support another liar? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Speaker 4:
[95:22] No, it really doesn't.

Speaker 11:
[95:23] So let's not forget those-

Speaker 4:
[95:25] Yeah, and he has multiple P bodies. He's well-respected, exactly as you said, outside of UFOs.

Speaker 11:
[95:30] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[95:31] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[95:31] Did you learn any other details about the guy that had died that you were replacing?

Speaker 6:
[95:36] Yeah, they had an operating reactor. So apparently, which also brings up all kinds of other questions to me, apparently the reactors and all the craft are exactly the same. That makes me think of a manufacturing facility.

Speaker 4:
[95:54] Yeah.

Speaker 6:
[95:54] That's like Ford making an engine and it goes in a bunch of different models. How can all these crafts have the same power system or propulsion system in them? Anyway, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but he had a reactor, so it was probably from one of the other crafts. Why they did this is beyond me. They took it out to the nuclear test site, and they physically cut into it while it was running under load, and it exploded. I think there were three guys there, maybe more, they were all killed. So number one, why would you do that? Number two, it makes me think either they were extremely desperate and want to just find out what's in there, and why would you even do it while it was operating, or extremely confident that they knew what was going on in the reactor, where they could safely cut it, and they had a reason to get in there. But apparently, that information never made it back, whatever they gleaned from it, or even their suspicions at the beginning, because Barry and I were starting from the beginning on the reactor. Everything they had done previously was lost. Anyway.

Speaker 4:
[97:26] You ever learn the guy's name or any details about, does Barry have a last name?

Speaker 6:
[97:31] Yeah. Barry Castillo. It's spelled Castillo, but Castile. I don't know how it's pronounced. Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[97:39] Have you ever tracked him down after all this?

Speaker 6:
[97:42] I think briefly decades ago, we made a reel because there was another guy that would come in and out once in a while named Renee.

Speaker 4:
[97:50] Okay.

Speaker 6:
[97:50] Don't remember his last name. But I mean, at some point, I really put a lot of effort into trying to find Dennis Mariani and Barry, and I think some people did track down Dennis. I think he died not too long ago. Okay. I don't know about Barry, but I was never able to find it. Because I mean, back in the time I was looking for him, there was no Internet.

Speaker 4:
[98:14] Sure.

Speaker 6:
[98:14] You know, so you had to go through public records and stuff. Yeah. It was much more difficult than it is now.

Speaker 4:
[98:20] Yeah. And I know of one instance in which the name Dennis Mariani was corroborated by somebody at, you know, Nevada Test Site. And so, you know, I won't go further than that. But because it's not my thing to tell. But you're giving names and, you know, I think some of these people could still be alive, which is pretty remarkable too. Like, maybe we could track some of them down and they could back you up. I wonder, I mean, they have to know.

Speaker 6:
[98:50] I'm kind of wondering why nobody else came out, you know? Yeah. I mean, although Barry wouldn't talk about it much, you know, there are times I kind of mentioned, you know, holy cow, can you believe this is being kept secret? And he goes, it sucks, I know. So he didn't think it was, you know, he wasn't with the program as far as keeping this from, you know, the entire world.

Speaker 4:
[99:19] What was his background?

Speaker 6:
[99:21] No idea. Okay.

Speaker 4:
[99:22] No idea. But there was kind of a collegial goodwill between you and him?

Speaker 6:
[99:27] Yeah. Yeah. And he'd goof around sometimes, which was nice because everything else was just so rigid and military. So, I'm sure you heard the story where he threw the golf ball at the reactor, and sometimes we'd just start talking about stupid stuff. So, it was good to see a normal person that just acted like a human instead of a robot.

Speaker 4:
[99:53] What happened when he threw the golf ball at the reactor?

Speaker 6:
[99:56] He was showing me the field on it, and he said, check this out, and took a golf ball intending to hit the reactor, and instead it bounced off the field, and then hit a ceiling tile, which dislodged it and made all the little particles come down. And we knew Dennis was going to be coming back in two minutes. So, it was red alert. We had to grab the stools and go up and re-ascend and clean it up and everything. And shortly after that, Dennis walks in, what's going on? Nothing, nothing. We're working like we should be.

Speaker 4:
[100:35] I mean, this is a remarkable detail. Around the reactor, you have this sort of force field-like thing, this like repelling force.

Speaker 6:
[100:41] Yeah, yeah. Once the hemisphere on top of a plate, about the size of a basketball, maybe a little bigger, on top of a 15-inch square plate, the hemisphere is removable. Once the hemisphere is put back on, if the emitter is in the right position, then the reactor will turn on immediately, and it will produce a gravitational field around it, and you can push on it, and you can't touch the reactor from that point. It's somewhat elastic. If you have two light poles of a magnet, pushing them together, it's the exact same field, but without metal, it's just your hands. But as I said before, what's really interesting is you can move the reactor on the table, and once you turn it on and you're pushing on the field, the reactor doesn't slide. So it's not transferring the force to the reactor. It's pushing your hand away. But that's really interesting to me.

Speaker 4:
[101:52] How did the reactor work?

Speaker 6:
[101:55] This is all guess. This is just all guesswork. Yes. It has a super heavy element in it, which appeared to be 115 on the periodic chart. There's a little tower in it. And from X-rays, we could see that there's a loop around the base plate. So it was theorized, apparently, Barry with his other lab partner, they thought that was a cyclotron, an accelerator. And that the tube that came up the side was an off-ramp, essentially. And that particle, or whatever was being accelerated, interacts with the 115, and somehow that produces the gravitational field.

Speaker 4:
[102:43] How did it feel on your hand?

Speaker 6:
[102:45] It felt exactly like pushing magnets together. Okay. It was just elastic. I mean, it was compressible to some degree, and then when it got close to it, nothing is getting past that.

Speaker 4:
[102:59] With magnets, you have to have like pulls for them to repel.

Speaker 6:
[103:02] Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[103:03] And in this case, you're not, you know...

Speaker 6:
[103:05] It's just matter repelling matter without polarity.

Speaker 4:
[103:10] Does it feel like a... What does it feel like? Is there a texture to it?

Speaker 6:
[103:17] No, it's just elastic, but it becomes... It's not linear.

Speaker 4:
[103:22] But does it feel like...

Speaker 6:
[103:23] It's logarithmic, you know, it's easy to push and then it becomes impossible. There's no way you're getting past the next three inches. You could probably sit a car on top of it and nothing would change.

Speaker 4:
[103:34] Does it feel like saran wrap or does it feel like... Like what does it feel like when you're in it? Does it feel like...

Speaker 6:
[103:44] No, it just feels...

Speaker 4:
[103:46] It's literally like air, like...

Speaker 6:
[103:49] Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Speaker 4:
[103:50] You know what I mean?

Speaker 6:
[103:51] I described that.

Speaker 4:
[103:52] Yeah. Like is there a...

Speaker 6:
[103:54] No, it just feels...

Speaker 4:
[103:55] A coolness, a heat...

Speaker 6:
[103:58] No.

Speaker 4:
[103:58] It's just like space-time itself.

Speaker 6:
[104:01] Yeah, it's just, I don't know how to describe it.

Speaker 4:
[104:06] Sure, sure.

Speaker 6:
[104:06] Yeah, but it's just there. I mean, at this point, I don't even think it's gravity. What do you think? I think this is another completely unique force. It doesn't behave enough like gravity.

Speaker 4:
[104:25] And explain why it's so different.

Speaker 6:
[104:28] I mean, because at least my thoughts at this point are, I think gravity is just a property of matter, and it's only an attractive force. I'm not sure you can have anti-gravity. Look, if it was gravity, at one point, Barry showed me, he had one of the emitters at working. He put a lit little kitchen candle right at the focal point, and he powered up the reactor, and the flame stopped flickering. It stood there frozen in space and time, but I could see the light from the candle. The flame was still visible. Also, he removed the candle and then rotated the emitter. I don't know if it was another direction or more the same way, but it made a little black ball in the air where no light was escaping, looking like a little black hole. But no, you could just tell there was no light at the focal point right in the air. It was just a dark area. So there it's affecting light, but it wasn't in the candle test before that. So it's a really unusual, unusual thing.

Speaker 4:
[105:45] When Bob mentioned this anomalous force coming from the craft's emitter, I immediately racked my brain for anyone in conventional aerospace circles who talks about something similar. And then I realized I just interviewed the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA, Dr. Charles Buhler, who talks about something very similar.

Speaker 13:
[106:04] Okay, where the heck is this energy coming from? Because if I was to stick this in space, it would accelerate with the power off. That's a problem.

Speaker 4:
[106:16] You see, there's a long lineage of people studying gravity control or anti-gravity in the United States. Perhaps my favorite example is mid-century inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who discovered that when you apply a high voltage to certain asymmetric capacitors, they produce thrust. That's right, propulsion with no fuel, no exhaust, no propellant, just electricity as the input converted directly into motion. A new model for space propulsion that could eliminate crude chemical combustion rockets forever. Now, you might think that's insane and defies Newton's laws. And I'll spare you all of the corroborating research that I've dug up, showing that Brown made real breakthroughs in the world of anti-gravity. Dr. Charles Buhler at NASA has taken Brown's experiments to the next level, with modern instruments, more rigorous controls, We see about 0.1 grams that corresponds to about 1 millinewton of thrust. And decades of electrostatics expertise from his work at Kennedy Space Center behind him. He's done over 2,000 of these experiments, and controlled for just about every variable you can think of. And he's also getting millinewtons of thrust, basically real propulsion with electricity as the sole input. And you can't really argue with his authority to make these claims. The man literally runs electrostatics at NASA. He's the incoming president of the American Electrostatics Society. And he's contributed two fundamental principles to the field of electrostatics that are now widely accepted. So this is kind of an interesting moment in history, because we have a man who reverse engineered UFOs, and then we have a NASA lead electrostatic scientist. So I thought I'd just leave it to you guys to kind of nerd out.

Speaker 6:
[108:08] Yeah, well, first of all, hi, Charles.

Speaker 8:
[108:11] Hi, Bob. This is a very exciting moment for me. I'm a big fan.

Speaker 4:
[108:15] Now, the thing about Bob Lazar is he kind of exists on an island. We've never seen him interact with other highly credentialed engineers in aerospace. And what I've learned after spending time with him is he's actually pretty skeptical when it comes to other scientific anomalies.

Speaker 6:
[108:31] Man, I'm real interested to hear, you know, your physical experiment set up. Is it a hybrid of your idea and TT. Brown's? Or are you just duplicating one of his experiments? I mean, can you explain to me what it looks like? What's your test set up look like?

Speaker 8:
[108:49] Gosh, it's 2,000 variations. I'll try to do my best.

Speaker 6:
[108:55] I mean, how is this? I'm sure you've seen the lifter ion motors and stuff along those lines. How is it different from those?

Speaker 8:
[109:06] There's a few ways. The ion thrusters obviously use ions and air to give them momentum. What's interesting about this force, even though it's sort of the same geometry can be used, but at high vacuum, you'll get the thrust. But it's always in the opposite direction of the ion thrust, which is really cool because what happens is you have a sharp electrode in the ground plane. However, you do that, you can come up with a million ways to do that. In air, when you do that, you'll break down the gasses, either in a corona or some fold like that. At vacuum, we can actually see these forces arise, but they're always in the opposite direction of the ion wind, which is really interesting. That is very interesting. It's the same direction as the rocket exhaust. You never think of that. It really messes with you. That's what's interesting about it. That's one main difference.

Speaker 6:
[109:57] Yeah. Well, that's really interesting. I mean, the fact that it's in the opposite direction of where an ion thruster would be, and you've done it in a hard or reasonably hard vacuum, and you're getting measurable thrust?

Speaker 8:
[110:11] We have. We've been doing that since 2020. So the last six years, we test almost every day, probably every other day, different configurations or we zero in on a configuration, test another concept, and that is an ongoing inter-rubric process. So yes, we have tested high vacuum, 10 to the minus six or better, the chamber can get up to 10 to the minus seven, but enough to prove to us that there's no ion wind.

Speaker 6:
[110:35] What kind of thrust in newtons or grams are you getting?

Speaker 8:
[110:38] Well, we're still playing around in the hundreds of micro newtons or millinewton ranges. So I think the highest we have gotten is probably up to the 50 millinewton mark. But that's when we stack these together. We don't learn a lot from them when we do that, other than we can make more thrust, which is important. But we like to understand the thrust density, if you will, of each thruster. So we're trying to optimize each type, optimize each parameter space that we have access to before we can get to larger chambers or outer space to test the megastructures.

Speaker 6:
[111:13] Physically, how big are these thrusters?

Speaker 8:
[111:16] Oh, they're not very big. They're about six inches, maybe, six by six, roughly.

Speaker 6:
[111:20] Okay.

Speaker 8:
[111:21] That range, it's a nice size. You know, we can make them bigger, but we don't gain anything by that. We just try to keep them manageable so that we can do different things with them, stack them, try different voltages. And then we try to measure the currents and make sure that in many cases, there is no current, which is very odd.

Speaker 6:
[111:41] I would say.

Speaker 5:
[111:42] Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 6:
[111:43] Yeah, I'd say.

Speaker 4:
[111:45] Turn the power source off and it keeps going.

Speaker 6:
[111:48] Wait, what?

Speaker 8:
[111:49] Yeah, it is very annoying. In some cases, when we trap the charge in there, that's all that's required. So that really eliminates a lot of things.

Speaker 6:
[111:58] So a physically larger one doesn't get you any more thrust, but you can stack them and get increased thrust.

Speaker 8:
[112:05] Well, a physically large one will, but we won't learn anything from it. You know, we can do 8 inches or 10 inches each, we have, but we're not learning anything from it. We want to learn, you know, what is the best geometry shape. We want to optimize. We know area is one of the ways that will be optimized later once we're in space. But on ground test articles, we're kind of fixed by the geometry of our chamber. Once we get some funding here, we do, Drew does have almost a walk-in size chamber in his garage. You can walk in it. When that comes online in a few months, then we can test much larger versions of it. So the thrust does depend on the area, it does depend on the volume, it does depend on the voltages, the typical things you would expect. But we try to optimize it as much as we can with the chamber we have actively running right now.

Speaker 6:
[112:57] How much are you charging them up to?

Speaker 7:
[112:59] What kind of voltage are you using?

Speaker 8:
[113:02] Well, when we started in 2016, it was at the Townsend Brown level, 150,000 volts.

Speaker 9:
[113:09] Okay.

Speaker 8:
[113:10] Thank goodness we're not anywhere near that now. I think we're operating right now about 400 volts.

Speaker 6:
[113:16] You're at 400 volts? Yeah.

Speaker 4:
[113:18] So his belief is that it's really Brown thought that the voltage range was the thing causing the thrust. But Charles' belief is that that's a proxy for electric field string. There are obviously other ways to amplify electric field strength that lower voltage is. So he's using 400 volts.

Speaker 6:
[113:37] Yeah. But I can't. It's shocking.

Speaker 4:
[113:39] 1.5 millinewtons.

Speaker 6:
[113:42] That's unbelievable. Man, I want to come over and hang out with you.

Speaker 4:
[113:50] I can introduce you guys.

Speaker 8:
[113:51] Put your hands on it. Do whatever you like. You're more than welcome.

Speaker 4:
[113:53] Isn't that exciting?

Speaker 6:
[113:54] Yeah. I can't believe you're getting these results. I can't get past the 400 volts either. If you increase the voltage, you don't see any change in thrust.

Speaker 8:
[114:05] You'll get more thrust for sure. We like to stay 400 volts, 500 volts. We like to stay low if we can.

Speaker 6:
[114:12] Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[114:14] It's a preference. We'll test up to 2, 2,500 volts and start worrying about breakdown. We get worried about that because these systems are getting much, much smaller. So we don't have access to the higher fields anymore. It's material properties that we have to do. But we like the 2,300 volts. It gets rid of other nuances like the corona wind or anything like that.

Speaker 6:
[114:40] Right. All that stuff gets tossed out.

Speaker 4:
[114:43] Yeah. You're not even ionizing the air.

Speaker 6:
[114:45] No, it's nothing. I mean, it's nothing. That's why I was so shocked because all those other effects drop out right as soon as you drop the voltage down that low, and you can get some cleaner data then. That's damn, this is really cool.

Speaker 4:
[115:00] We're converting Bob on Townsend Brown. Yeah. Thank you for this. Really appreciate it, man.

Speaker 6:
[115:09] Good to meet you.

Speaker 8:
[115:09] Good to meet you too. Take care, guys.

Speaker 11:
[115:11] Take care.

Speaker 6:
[115:13] That's really fascinating.

Speaker 4:
[115:16] Isn't that wild?

Speaker 6:
[115:17] Yeah, it's a little more than just wild.

Speaker 4:
[115:21] I know, right?

Speaker 6:
[115:21] Yeah, it is. I mean, that's significant.

Speaker 4:
[115:24] I think so.

Speaker 6:
[115:25] It could really be significant. The thing is, the first thing I would point out, there's something wrong with your tests, but not in 1,500 tests. No. When you've gone through it that many times and have done it for this long, boy, and you've adjusted all the potential parameters and fallouts to.

Speaker 4:
[115:49] No, I can't. I know.

Speaker 6:
[115:50] Yeah. You got to assume that the thing is working.

Speaker 4:
[115:55] But you also, you mentioned DC voltage in the craft, and that's also at Townsend Brown, that is high DC voltage.

Speaker 6:
[116:02] Yeah. It's not just high DC voltage. I even mentioned it on Joe Rogan, that I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so it only, just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it, an electric always has an electrostatic field to it.

Speaker 4:
[116:21] Interesting.

Speaker 6:
[116:21] And I think that's certainly something important.

Speaker 4:
[116:26] Were there high climb rates to the voltage likely? You know what I mean? Like really high climb, like fast swinging up in voltage.

Speaker 6:
[116:36] Oh yeah, without a doubt.

Speaker 4:
[116:38] It's so fascinating because it's literally all the towns and brown stuff. It's like fast, high DC voltage, like fast climb rates.

Speaker 6:
[116:45] You know, I wonder if that really applies to the craft more than I was giving it credit for.

Speaker 4:
[116:49] I think it does, especially after your conversation with Buehler.

Speaker 6:
[116:52] Yeah, yeah. I mean, now that's making me wonder. It could very well be, but again, because of the high voltage on the craft.

Speaker 4:
[116:58] And it's DC, so there's no magnetic field interference.

Speaker 6:
[117:01] Yeah, right. Man, that's...

Speaker 4:
[117:04] We're making progress live here.

Speaker 6:
[117:08] He might have been so far past this already.

Speaker 4:
[117:11] Well, the funny thing about Brown is he was looking for a power source that was nuclear for the rest of his career. We figured out the electric avidics and then he called it the flame jet.

Speaker 6:
[117:19] Boy, that would have been the guy to have there other than me.

Speaker 4:
[117:23] Well, I mean, you and him. I just feel like you could walk off set. No, you and him would be...

Speaker 6:
[117:29] I'd just get in the way. But yeah, he'd be the guy to have there.

Speaker 4:
[117:33] You were given some theories, like there being two gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Was that in the briefing documents? Or was this told to you?

Speaker 6:
[117:44] Actually, I think that was part of what Barry had. Other lab notes. I don't know if those were previous documents that he had, but there were lab notes. This was the direction they were going in at one time.

Speaker 7:
[118:08] There are two specific different types of gravity, gravity A and gravity B. Gravity A works on a smaller micro scale, while gravity B works on a larger macro scale. Gravity A is what is currently being labeled as the strong nuclear force in mainstream physics, and gravity A is the wave that you need to access and amplify to enable you to cause space-time distortion for interstellar travel.

Speaker 4:
[118:32] Gravity B is like cosmological scale, and gravity A is like subatomic scale.

Speaker 6:
[118:38] Apparently.

Speaker 4:
[118:39] Apparently. Which it is really interesting because I remember you're like kind of OG science tutorial. We were texting about it last night.

Speaker 11:
[118:48] The excerpts from the Government Bible, the original tape that you did.

Speaker 4:
[118:52] And it's amazing. So it sounds like the kind of gravity A is like basically the perimeter of the atom or what you're dealing with.

Speaker 6:
[119:04] But again, I'm just repeating stuff that I was told. It's not like I conducted an experiment to verify that.

Speaker 4:
[119:11] So but it is almost the solution to what has been keeping physics stuck for so long. Yeah, possibly quantized gravity.

Speaker 6:
[119:18] Right, right. Possibly. Possibly. If in fact, that's gravity.

Speaker 4:
[119:22] Have you ever, you know, we were talking about this, but gravity-like fields, and I want to give this to you, because you can make sense of it more than me. And we were talking about this last time. This is this guy, Burkhard Heim. Have you ever heard that name?

Speaker 6:
[119:36] I've heard the name, but I don't know anything about him.

Speaker 4:
[119:38] So he, at the age of 19, became deaf and blind due to an explosion, and he was a German, and he ended up moving over to the US and working for Lockheed Martin in the 50s, and was renowned as just a total genius.

Speaker 1:
[119:54] And he had a really interesting theory of gravity, which involved, I guess, two gravitational fields, and some of these sub-components of gravity. I wrote this down because it's honestly beyond my pay grade. Gravity breaks down big and small scale. So it could be gravity A and gravity B. Specifically, standard gravity G is the tensor summation of three gravitational components, big G, little g, which is scalar gravity propagated by the graviton.

Speaker 2:
[120:26] By the graviton. So he's going with graviton. For that.

Speaker 1:
[120:29] Ggp, dark energy slash matter propagated by the gravitophoton and Gq, vacuum field, a repulsive force propagated by the quintessence particle. So in addition to the standard four forces, gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear and weak nuclear, EHT, which is Extended Heim Theory, which is named after him, adds two previously unrecognized gravitational forces, which brings us to six fundamental forces.

Speaker 2:
[120:56] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[120:58] And what I find interesting about that is there's a, Amy Eskridge is this anti-gravity researcher who actually died under very mysterious circumstances. And she apparently was, at the end of her life, kept talking about a sixth force. That was like-

Speaker 2:
[121:11] A sixth force, really.

Speaker 1:
[121:12] Sixth force, yeah.

Speaker 3:
[121:13] The sixth force is Andrew Halley.

Speaker 4:
[121:15] That's what my group has a mathematical equation to physically describe.

Speaker 5:
[121:19] We have sixth force on lockdown.

Speaker 1:
[121:21] And so I wonder about, you know, this book and there's these two guys in Germany who are very high conviction in this extended Heim.

Speaker 2:
[121:29] I'd like to read it.

Speaker 1:
[121:31] Well, it's yours.

Speaker 2:
[121:32] Thanks.

Speaker 5:
[121:36] Oh, that's really interesting.

Speaker 1:
[121:37] Isn't it interesting?

Speaker 5:
[121:40] I'm also on that. I think it was not gravity. I don't think it is. I don't think it's gravity.

Speaker 2:
[121:46] Yeah, it's something else.

Speaker 5:
[121:47] It's something else.

Speaker 1:
[121:49] Something else going on.

Speaker 5:
[121:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[121:51] Because if it were right, if it were gravity well that you'd normally see, it's a little black hole, little gravitational source. You just see everything getting sucked into it no matter what.

Speaker 2:
[122:01] Other things would have acted differently too.

Speaker 1:
[122:04] Yeah, light lensing and yeah.

Speaker 2:
[122:06] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[122:08] It almost feels like-

Speaker 2:
[122:11] It almost has to be.

Speaker 1:
[122:14] It's almost like it had rude access to reality itself, like it froze time.

Speaker 2:
[122:20] Yeah, but if it froze time, how come the photons were still coming out of it? You see a glowing candle, it should be dark.

Speaker 1:
[122:29] Can it freeze time in some local space?

Speaker 2:
[122:33] But still-

Speaker 1:
[122:33] Confine it.

Speaker 2:
[122:35] Still the photons are flying out. Yeah. If you say, well, it doesn't affect photons, how come it made the black little ball?

Speaker 1:
[122:45] Where do you think? Do you have a best candidate for what it is?

Speaker 2:
[122:49] No.

Speaker 5:
[122:51] There is.

Speaker 2:
[122:52] That's why I think, I mean, I lean towards this is another force, and just stop calling it gravity. But as Barry said, the only thing we know that does this is gravity, so we're calling it a gravity generator.

Speaker 1:
[123:08] Okay. It's being created ostensibly due to this proton bombardment of Element 115, and then you get 116, and then you get a decay, and then.

Speaker 2:
[123:23] If in fact all that's occurring.

Speaker 1:
[123:24] Yes. It's so interesting.

Speaker 5:
[123:27] I mean, don't forget that in the film, we did not include the mechanical watch experiment that was also conducted in the lab. So there was the candle, the black ball, and the mechanical watch. We didn't put it in there just because we wanted to shorten the film. But there was another experiment, Bob, remember, and there was a mechanical watch that just stopped. Yeah, I mean, that's another indicator where Bob said-

Speaker 2:
[123:55] It's similar to the candle. It just stopped, but I could still see it.

Speaker 5:
[124:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[124:02] It's like it's freezing its time.

Speaker 2:
[124:05] It's freezing movement.

Speaker 1:
[124:06] Freezing movement.

Speaker 2:
[124:07] But not affecting anything else. There's nothing that just freezes a movement.

Speaker 1:
[124:10] No, it doesn't. But that is really, time is so weird because we only-

Speaker 2:
[124:15] Something that inhibits kinetic energy, which would be really weird.

Speaker 1:
[124:22] Well, it's so weird, especially given all of the forms of possible kinetic energy. You're talking about a watch, a mechanical watch and a flame are very different things.

Speaker 5:
[124:30] Yeah. So it's so strange.

Speaker 1:
[124:33] While you were there, did you tell anybody what you were working on? You know, your wife at the time?

Speaker 2:
[124:40] No, Gene Huff.

Speaker 1:
[124:42] You told Gene Huff?

Speaker 2:
[124:42] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[124:43] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[124:44] I told John Lear too.

Speaker 1:
[124:46] And you even brought them to see the test?

Speaker 2:
[124:49] Yeah, because I had the test flight schedule.

Speaker 1:
[124:52] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[124:52] So I know it's a Wednesday night. Yeah, we're going out there and you guys are going to see it.

Speaker 6:
[124:57] This is John Lear and today is March 22nd, 1989. We're standing just about eight miles to east of Groom Lake, Nevada. The super government secret test site. And just a few minutes ago, we saw one of the government extraterrestrial UFOs fly over there. We all watched it for about seven or eight minutes. Right here, I have my Celestron scope. It's eight inches. And I had it focused in for about 15 seconds and saw for myself, that in fact, it was a disk.

Speaker 2:
[125:31] There isn't much to see with the camera back at that day.

Speaker 1:
[125:34] And that was while you were working at S4. You showed them the, or was it afterwards?

Speaker 2:
[125:40] That was, boy, that's a tough question. That was while I was working there.

Speaker 1:
[125:46] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[125:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[125:47] When you saw the UFO with Gene Huff and John Lear, and you kind of took them, what was it, to the little mesa? Was it a mesa?

Speaker 5:
[125:57] No.

Speaker 2:
[125:59] It was right outside. It was before, you know, before you get to the black mailbox. You know, the reason anybody knew about the black mailbox, everybody wanted to know where the road was that we turned down. When you come up the highway, it's this first dirt road you go down, but there's no landmarks around there. And if you keep going like another mile or two, there's a black mailbox. So, I just said, it's around the black mailbox.

Speaker 1:
[126:27] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[126:27] And that just got repeated and everybody thought...

Speaker 1:
[126:30] It's a black mailbox...

Speaker 2:
[126:31] .the black mailbox road is where it is. It's not anywhere near where it is.

Speaker 1:
[126:36] When all you guys went up there and you saw the UFO fly, and I'm sure they were just totally shocked, were you allowed back at S4 after that?

Speaker 2:
[126:45] Yeah, well, the first time, they didn't know we were out there.

Speaker 1:
[126:49] Oh, they didn't know.

Speaker 2:
[126:50] Yeah, yeah. We only got caught the last time.

Speaker 1:
[126:52] Okay. So they get, and then-

Speaker 2:
[126:54] No, they would never have let me back.

Speaker 1:
[126:56] So after the last time, you weren't let back there.

Speaker 2:
[126:59] Right.

Speaker 1:
[127:00] That was it.

Speaker 2:
[127:01] That was absolutely it.

Speaker 1:
[127:02] You were finished after that.

Speaker 2:
[127:03] No, they're not going to, come on back. No, no.

Speaker 4:
[127:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[127:07] They were pretty pissed.

Speaker 4:
[127:08] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[127:09] Why did you decide to come out and approach?

Speaker 2:
[127:14] I don't know because I was still getting followed. There was always somebody parked outside my house, and I was starting to get scared. I think that's when I first started telling Gene, I said, hey, if all of a sudden they disappear, I'm working out at the site there. Eventually, I told him, he said, why are you working on secret weapons or something? I said, no, I'm working on this, and kind of told him, but I don't know, I'm just getting concerned about what's going on.

Speaker 1:
[127:45] Why do you think they were following you?

Speaker 2:
[127:47] I don't know, it might just be normal security.

Speaker 1:
[127:50] Did you take anything from the lab?

Speaker 2:
[127:53] Well, not at that time.

Speaker 1:
[127:58] Okay. Later. But that's interesting that they were, we'll file that away, but it's interesting that they were following you as if you had done something wrong when you were just showing up to work.

Speaker 2:
[128:10] No, but they were still doing, they allowed me in there and they were still progressing on my clearance. They were still going through background checks, but they really wanted me on-site operating quickly. They let that slide because I've had clearance before. But yeah, they were looking at some other things too.

Speaker 1:
[128:35] Got it.

Speaker 2:
[128:36] That concerned them.

Speaker 1:
[128:37] About you personally?

Speaker 2:
[128:39] About my relationship.

Speaker 1:
[128:40] Okay. Got it. Then they were digging into that? That's kind of-

Speaker 2:
[128:46] Yeah. You have to have a stable family background if you're going to be playing around with state secrets and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:
[128:53] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[128:53] They don't want you being crazy. They don't want you drinking. They're going to be checking out how you play with friends. If you were going to rages, they want to make sure your wife isn't running around, and they don't want any stress or anything to-

Speaker 1:
[129:08] But then at that point, if you see these black cars parked outside of your house, why isn't your reaction, okay, I'm just going to eat it. They're going to give me a colonoscopy as far as literally knowing 360, everything about my life, but I'll be able to retain my job at S4, or do you get scared and you're like, I got to come out?

Speaker 2:
[129:32] I guess it's some, I don't really remember how I felt back then, but I was just getting a little concerned.

Speaker 1:
[129:38] Yeah, and did you-

Speaker 2:
[129:40] I think it couldn't hurt to at least tell one person, so.

Speaker 1:
[129:46] Did you want, because John Lear gave the files on you to George Knapp, right? KLAS, is that how it went down?

Speaker 2:
[129:56] Gave the files on me.

Speaker 1:
[129:57] Burkhard gave the, like, said, like, you know, hey, this-

Speaker 2:
[130:01] Yeah, I mean, yeah, John Lear is the one that contacted George Knapp and said, you should speak to this guy.

Speaker 1:
[130:08] Okay, so you played kind of intermediate. Was he going rogue on his own or did you say, hey, can you contact, you know, George or somebody in the local news to help me get this stuff out?

Speaker 2:
[130:21] No, I said, I mean, at that, well, things were starting to get weird and I don't really remember how that went down, but I think, you know, George said, look, you got to get the information out publicly because that's the only way, that's the only thing that will protect yourself. I said, that's really stupid. I'm not going to do that. And, you know, it was just a couple of days later on, well, maybe it's not that stupid.

Speaker 1:
[130:51] And was it, do you think it was self-protection or idealism? Was a part of you like, this needs to be out, this is crazy, the garment is hiding.

Speaker 2:
[131:00] Oh, yeah, of course it was. But it was an equal part of self-protection, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[131:05] Yeah, no, fair enough. Lear is somebody, I think a lot of people have questions about because he was-

Speaker 2:
[131:12] He had crazy beliefs.

Speaker 1:
[131:14] Crazy beliefs.

Speaker 2:
[131:15] I mean, some of the stuff was so ridiculous. I would sit there and just talk to him and go, you are absolutely out of your mind if you believe. I mean, he didn't believe the sun was hot. He said there are people living in the sun. There's no one living in the sun, John. And said, yeah, they built the moon on Jupiter. And that's where they manufactured it and they toted it into Earth's orbit. What is giving you these ridiculous, why are you believing this nonsense? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[131:45] How did you meet him?

Speaker 2:
[131:50] Gene Huff was a real estate appraiser. And at the time, John was looking to get a loan on his house. And he had been on, George Knapp had a show on the record, like after the news. And John Lear had been on there back when he wasn't so, well, I wasn't going to say he wasn't so crazy, but didn't have such crazy ideas. Look, he was an accomplished pilot, a brilliant guy and he had tons of files and had lots of great contacts. The only problem with John was, he had no bullshit filter. Yeah. I mean, he could have a four-star general tell him something, and he'll write it and put it in a file, and he'll have some derelict that's walking by his house and go, I know Jell-O thinks, and he'll go, all right. And he'll put them in the same file and they have the same level of credibility going, what are you talking about? So he drove me crazy because of that. But he did, earlier on, he was less exotic with his theories, and it's spoken to George Knapp. I had seen it on TV, so had Gene Huff. And anyway, he wound up doing the appraisal on his house, and I went with Gene to help him measure it. And kind of got talking to John, and that's how we met.

Speaker 1:
[133:24] He's such an odd character because his father created the first business airliner in the US., the Learjet. Yeah, the Lear, aviation legend.

Speaker 2:
[133:32] Yeah, Bill Lear invented the autopilot, invented the eight-track tape. I mean, he's a-

Speaker 1:
[133:37] Radio direction finder, Jackal.

Speaker 2:
[133:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was quite a guy.

Speaker 1:
[133:41] He was. And so-

Speaker 2:
[133:43] I mean, he had a problem with John, too. I mean, John was eliminated from his will, and John showed me his will. Every paragraph said, except, everybody gets this stuff, except John Olsen Lear, except John Olsen Lear. I mean, he was so angry at his kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He just completely removed him from the will.

Speaker 1:
[134:06] Maybe Apple fell far from the tree as far as aviation, engineering prowess or something. But John Lear won all sorts of records as a pilot. He was a very impressive pilot.

Speaker 2:
[134:20] Oh yeah, credit is due where credit is due. I mean, he had all kinds of world records and it's just his filter.

Speaker 1:
[134:30] John Lear was super into UFOs before you got the job at Area51, S4. I think he had a UFO blog. And so, do you think, why do you think it didn't come up in a background check that you were friends with this guy?

Speaker 2:
[134:47] Oh, it did. They absolutely asked me about John Lear the first day.

Speaker 1:
[134:51] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[134:52] Yeah. What's your relationship with John Lear? In fact, that might have been the first question. Really? Yeah. At EG&G when I sat down, that's the first thing they mentioned.

Speaker 1:
[135:02] And what did you say?

Speaker 2:
[135:03] I said, he's a crazy friend.

Speaker 1:
[135:06] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[135:08] And I don't remember what else, but I just told him some stuff. Yeah. He's met him and he's fascinating. And I mean, John would just do the craziest stuff. Back then, he flew L-1011s, which is a big, big jet. It's 400 people on it or something like that. And occasionally, he'd call and just be like a Tuesday night, 8 o'clock. He'd be like, hey, you want to go to Minneapolis? Okay. All right. Meet me down at the airport, wear a suit, and come on. So he'd be a pilot and the pilot of the craft. And I'd come on, he said, just come on the tarmac, I'll tell this guy and walk up in the plane. And he'd tell the co-pilot and engineer, hey, this guy's from the FAA, so he's just going to be observing us and taking us. So I take the jump seat behind the pilot and just fly with John.

Speaker 1:
[136:07] Did he talk to you about UFOs before you got the job at S4, Area51?

Speaker 2:
[136:11] No, he didn't talk to me about him, but I mean, he spoke about them.

Speaker 1:
[136:15] Did he ever?

Speaker 2:
[136:16] Yeah, I mean, he used to tell me there are aliens living in the mountains alongside, you know, I think it's I-95 or something around the highway. He said, yeah, there's a billion of them in there.

Speaker 1:
[136:28] It's so crazy. Did he ever show you anything Billy Myers related?

Speaker 2:
[136:34] I don't, I don't recall. I think, I think when I described, I think when I described the craft to him and drew it, I think he brought out the Billy Myers' books. And he said, I think that's right for, in fact, it is, that's where I first saw it.

Speaker 6:
[136:51] So we saw, we showed him the Billy Myers' tape.

Speaker 2:
[136:54] I said, yeah, that's not like the craft, that's the craft.

Speaker 1:
[136:58] That's so interesting. So yeah, he kind of helped you piece it together. Did he, was he still affiliated with, cause he was a CIA cargo pilot till 1983, I think.

Speaker 2:
[137:08] Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:
[137:09] Did he continue flying for them after that or did he disaffiliate?

Speaker 2:
[137:14] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[137:14] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[137:15] I don't think so.

Speaker 1:
[137:16] Yeah. Cause he was, he's this interesting character to me because it seems like he has crazy access to Area51. Like he's like snooping around and taking photos of like F-117s. He even leaks the details of the F-117 to George Knapp, but then he's still like knows all the security guards there. So I'm like, what's his, what's his deal, you know?

Speaker 2:
[137:37] I mean, I had been out at, you know, but before the S4 thing, you know, out in the desert in the middle of the night with binoculars and stuff outside of Tonopah, you know, trying to get pictures of any new aircraft that's flying around. I mean, he was obviously a big aviation buff, you know, and I was into that too. Sometimes I'd just go out and watch, you know, fighters taken off from Nellis Air Force Base because you could get right up to the fence there and you know, so it was, yeah, he was definitely into snooping around and say whatever he could find out.

Speaker 1:
[138:13] I mentioned Jacques Vallée earlier. He, you met him, right?

Speaker 2:
[138:19] Yeah, I met him and, you know, we spoke briefly and then from what I remember, somebody was talking about making a movie with him and then after hearing about me and talking, they started talking about, well, maybe we'll do it on Bob instead and he was super pissed off.

Speaker 1:
[138:43] Really?

Speaker 2:
[138:43] Yeah, and then from that point on, all of a sudden, you know, everything Bob said is crazy.

Speaker 1:
[138:49] Really?

Speaker 2:
[138:51] Yeah, initially, he was.

Speaker 1:
[138:53] Because he wrote a book called Messengers of Deception and he writes about you and he says, Bob Lazar seems to be very legit, but he also talks about this Pine Solid drink he drinks, this drink he drinks and the memory lapses it caused.

Speaker 2:
[139:11] Now, there's no memory lapses.

Speaker 1:
[139:13] No memory lapses.

Speaker 2:
[139:13] That's a bunch of nonsense. Okay. It's so clear.

Speaker 1:
[139:17] It was like this vitamin B shot that was like immunity related.

Speaker 2:
[139:21] Yeah. That's all it was. Again, we're working with completely unknown materials. We don't know what and apparently people had severe reactions to some of this stuff, just touching the craft. They had dealt with that before.

Speaker 1:
[139:35] I feel like I can defend you on 99.9 percent of things, and then the one thing I have trouble with is the MIT thing. Because that's the other thing circulating. Did you get your masters there or you were sent there?

Speaker 2:
[139:47] I was sent there.

Speaker 1:
[139:48] On a specific kind of isolated program? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[139:52] I did a lot of auditing in both places.

Speaker 1:
[139:56] Then for Caltech, what was that? You were sent to MIT and then Caltech was different?

Speaker 2:
[140:02] Caltech was way before that. I guess if I really look through old paperwork and stuff, I can come up with things, but that's never been.

Speaker 1:
[140:15] Yeah. I think George Knapp found, I think some people who knew you at Caltech. Yeah. One other question that people have is, why were you allowed to give him a tour of Los Alamos after you blew the whistle on Area51? Why wasn't there this nationwide directive at all of the National Labs? Don't let this guy back in.

Speaker 2:
[140:40] Look, it was really nothing. We got on a Southwest flight, came out there, rented a car, drove up, and I still knew all the guards and stuff like that. So we came up, and he's like, Lazar, you're back. Yeah, just going in there to see a friend.

Speaker 1:
[140:59] It was just like a different time.

Speaker 2:
[141:02] Los Alamos is so much higher security now. I mean, it was so nonchalant back then, and we just wrote right into the experimental areas, came over here, I said, George, this is my desk.

Speaker 1:
[141:14] Was a part of you nervous that there would be some red alert?

Speaker 2:
[141:18] No, not at all.

Speaker 1:
[141:20] You were like, you didn't worry that there was any sort of coordination between Area51 and Los Alamos.

Speaker 2:
[141:25] Nobody knew what was going on there. It was, like I said, it was very lax atmosphere. In fact, a year or two after that, they were so concerned about that. I think they called it the Tiger Team, came in to test security there, and they failed so horribly that they just redid everything. After that point, forget it, you're not going in. But yeah, I still had keys and things. It was not even a problem.

Speaker 1:
[142:02] When did you start United Nuclear?

Speaker 2:
[142:05] 99, 2000.

Speaker 1:
[142:07] Did you ever work with the government with United Nuclear?

Speaker 2:
[142:10] Yeah. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1:
[142:11] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[142:12] Yeah. I mean, we still, we supply them. They train Department of Homeland Security, FBI. I mean, we sell them stuff all the time, especially when they're training people to use radiation detection equipment. I mean, we'll give them or sell them radioactive sources so they can go hide something in a warehouse and give the trainees a Geiger counter, go find it.

Speaker 1:
[142:38] Did you ever wonder why they didn't view you as a liability given your late 80s experience at S4, Area51, and they were just down to do contract work with you?

Speaker 2:
[142:50] I don't know. But one hand doesn't know what the other is doing in government.

Speaker 1:
[142:55] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[142:56] It's kind of a mess. Yeah. I mean, in fact, part of United Nuclear, when it was just beginning, some of the stuff we're selling was kind of questionable. This could potentially be used for explosives or stuff like that. So went down to the FBI and reviewed everything with them. They went, no, that's cool. Went down to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. No, we're good, the Postal Service. No, everything's good. All right, great, we're going to go selling it. Then raided by the Consumer Product Safety Commission. They come in with a SWAT team with machine. Woke my wife up out of bed with an M16 bonded interface. Jesus Christ. It's like, we checked with everybody. I didn't check with us. So don't you guys talk? So yeah, one hand has no idea what the other is doing when it comes to the government.

Speaker 1:
[143:51] Yeah, no, I believe that. Is there any part of you that thinks that they wanted you to come out and that they wanted some frameworks? Cause to your point, it's maladaptive to have this completely shut out from like, to have a STEM student who's talented and some random state.

Speaker 2:
[144:09] Why go through the complicated, I mean, why make it complicated and make me do it?

Speaker 1:
[144:15] Right.

Speaker 2:
[144:15] Why not just do it yourself?

Speaker 1:
[144:16] Put out the eye level framework and say, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[144:19] This whole complicated scenario with this guy coming in and hope that he does something you want, that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1:
[144:25] Yeah. No, I think that's fair. There's this John Lear interview where, again, it's impossible to parse what the hell is going on with that guy.

Speaker 2:
[144:36] Look, I have heard John Lear tell my story and it is so wrong. It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1:
[144:43] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[144:44] It's unbelievable. I mean, he inserts himself in there in a prominent position, well, I got Bob to get the job, to hear this and I went, what are you talking? It's completely inaccurate.

Speaker 1:
[144:57] Yeah. In this interview, he says Admiral McClellan, who was a Navy Admiral, came to me and he was MJ level. MJ obviously in the UFO lore would be like the elite kind of committee that governs this whole topic, came to me and he said, we got to get Bob on the job because we know that we can hide his. In some ways, it's corroborating your story because it's saying like, no, he was there, he was at S4, he's working on this stuff, but we need to get Bob specifically because we know we can have plausible deniability because they'll never be able to find his MIT records.

Speaker 6:
[145:36] It turns out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him.

Speaker 1:
[146:16] So I thought about that for a while and I was like, what is this? I couldn't even find an Admiral McClellan and then-

Speaker 2:
[146:23] I've heard that name before, but- You have.

Speaker 1:
[146:25] That's interesting that you've heard it.

Speaker 2:
[146:27] Yeah, I have definitely heard the name. It could have come from John Lear, but I don't know. I mean, the thing is, some of the stuff he's saying absolutely can be true or absolutely cannot.

Speaker 1:
[146:38] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[146:39] I don't know, but I mean, I love the guy. He was a great friend. He just thinks differently. It's sad he died. I wish I had spent more time with him. Yeah. But after I moved, it was just impractical. But yeah, I mean, if you're talking about statements John Lear made, boy, it's tough. It's really tough to find out what's accurate and what's not.

Speaker 1:
[147:05] Decoding the Voynich Manuscript or something.

Speaker 2:
[147:08] Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[147:08] But yeah, no, he's a complicated guy. So I think, and we talked about this a little last night, and maybe this is an interesting follow-up for this show, is I think he might have been talking about a guy named Mike McConnell, who became NSA director later, but he was involved in some S4, Area51 stuff related to Dan Barish, whose story I think honestly holds up a lot less than your story, but it has to be noted because it's one other guy who's mentioning S4. And so Mike McConnell is kind of involved there, and he was a Navy Admiral at the time. So I think about that and I'm like, I wonder if Mike McConnell was somewhat involved. When you came out as Dennis, was that a shot across the bow against Dennis Mariani?

Speaker 2:
[147:56] Yeah, sure was.

Speaker 1:
[147:59] So you were trying to kind of get at him a little bit?

Speaker 2:
[148:01] Yeah.

Speaker 5:
[148:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[148:03] What were your feelings towards him kind of personally? Were you resentful or were you, yeah, how did you feel towards him?

Speaker 2:
[148:14] I guess somewhat resentful. I don't know. It's hard to tap into how I felt back then.

Speaker 1:
[148:23] Yeah. Why do you think, and I know Luigi, you might have some theories here too. Why do you think Dennis wanted to meet up with you at the end of this whole saga?

Speaker 2:
[148:35] At the casino.

Speaker 1:
[148:36] And then you get up with him at the casino and then you're speaking to him and Gene Huff is looking and he's just not even looking at you. What is that about?

Speaker 2:
[148:44] I don't know. I think Dennis really had something to say. And I don't know. I don't know if people from S4 got there and changed his mind. I don't know if he intentionally wanted me to go out there just to get me away from the house. I really don't know.

Speaker 1:
[149:05] Because you got back to the house and something.

Speaker 2:
[149:06] Yeah. Things are missing. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[149:08] Anything of consequence? You can talk about it.

Speaker 2:
[149:12] No.

Speaker 1:
[149:13] Okay.

Speaker 5:
[149:18] So, I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[149:20] It's all guesswork.

Speaker 5:
[149:21] Yeah. I mean, when we sat down, even Gene Huff, I spoke to Gene Huff about that. Gene's perspective to that was he saw Bob walk up to Dennis. It's an important part because I always think about the fact that Gene Huff was there. Joe was also there. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[149:40] Yeah. We all had eyes on him.

Speaker 5:
[149:44] And what Gene said was, Bob Lazar walks up to this guy, Dennis, this blonde military looking guy, and Bob's talking to him. The guy's not even looking at him. And that caught Gene's attention. If Bob was making that up, what did he do? Just pick out a guy out of nowhere and starts talking. If the guy was a nobody, he would have turned around and go, what do you want?

Speaker 1:
[150:08] Yeah, he would have been like, stop talking.

Speaker 2:
[150:09] Yeah, no, I mean, I kept saying, Dennis, Dennis, I'm here. You know, what do you want? What's going on? I don't remember my exact words, but he never even looked up at me. And yeah, I just walked over to Gene and said, he's, I don't know what the deal is with Dennis. We both turned around and he was gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[150:30] That's so interesting. So I wonder, a part of me wonders if he himself wanted to come out after you or something, or there was something he needed to come out of.

Speaker 2:
[150:40] Unfortunately, it's all speculation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He could have wanted to come out. He might have been part of, well, let's get Bob out of the house. Yeah. There's a thousand, but there's no direction to go in.

Speaker 1:
[150:53] I mean, that was so striking from the documentaries. They put, your gun was set up in your own car and the doors were open in the parking lot, right?

Speaker 2:
[151:03] Yeah, that happened more than once.

Speaker 1:
[151:05] That's scary, man.

Speaker 2:
[151:07] Yeah. I mean, we would lock it and test the door because it had happened before and go, all right, it's locked, check every single thing. Okay, Mario, it's locked, it's locked. Okay, we go into the gym, we come back out, everything's open.

Speaker 1:
[151:24] Was there ever a moment where you were like, over 50 percent, I might get assassinated?

Speaker 2:
[151:30] Yeah, because it's why I said, we have to look under the car, see if there's something wired in there or a bomb. I mean, we're even afraid. The only thing that wasn't open, I think was the hood where the engine was. So we were afraid to open that and finally did, but looked over the car. But yeah, I was afraid there was a bomb on there or somebody wired it up. But as George said, I think they were just growing with me.

Speaker 5:
[152:02] Mario talked a lot with him and we've really spent a lot of time and he also kept saying, it's really hard to explain and express what that worry was because he said, I was with Bob all the time and we were scared that something was going to blow up. He says, I was so going through my hard times that I didn't care. I just told Bob, stay out and I'll try it. He would start the car because he was like, fuck it, I'm going to do it. But you could sense that even from Mario's perspective, there was a real worry. This is something that clearly was causing a lot of worry, not just for you, but for Mario as well. Because it's like, what the hell is going on? The doors are unlocked again and why are they doing this? So clearly, you think something could go wrong. Whether they were trying to just intimidate or do something, whatever that was, it was happening according to these guys.

Speaker 1:
[153:09] Did you get the sense that they were maybe mob ties? They talk about the UFO legacy program. Sometimes it's a cartel or a mafia that exists outside of the state. Did you get the sense? Obviously, you're going back and forth from Vegas and Vegas is a hot spot for that sort of thing. Did you ever get that sense?

Speaker 2:
[153:32] Not that it was the mob per se, but it was like these guys were disconnected from the government.

Speaker 1:
[153:38] Yeah, they were like their own.

Speaker 2:
[153:40] Yeah, they were their own cabal.

Speaker 1:
[153:43] You kind of get that vibe, like even, I feel like John Lear was like, like he had, you know, there's a picture with him and G. Gordon Liddy, do you know who that is? That's like.

Speaker 2:
[153:52] Yeah, I know the name. I don't remember who he is.

Speaker 1:
[153:54] He was this FBI agent who was this kind of agent provocateur who was very involved in Watergate and stuff. And you get the sense that that whole world, like the people, the Mormons who were around Howard Hughes, and there was a lot of mob activity there. And it was like, they were kind of like, you could see a civilian government official calling them and them being like, fuck off is the vibe.

Speaker 2:
[154:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly.

Speaker 1:
[154:21] We're doing our thing.

Speaker 5:
[154:22] That is undeniable.

Speaker 4:
[154:24] Yeah, yeah, you think so?

Speaker 5:
[154:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 100% on that. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[154:29] I know you've also because, you know, you live in Montreal and there's stuff there, and I'm sure you've bumped into things, people.

Speaker 5:
[154:37] Yeah. I always talk about it when I talk, when I hear about all these government organizations and government secrets and the intelligence community. And I think a lot of researchers and a lot of people researching this should also pay attention to what organized crime did back then, back in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and how those organizations operated and what they did. Because it's a very similar way of keeping secrets. And, you know, I think that there is some tie somewhere. I'm not saying that they're involved and they're in charge of anything. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying there is clear motivation for somebody who's trying to keep a secret to have ties with, let's say, the mob. So that if ever something or somebody does start going to rogue, well, you could basically scare that person and say, well, you know, these guys will come after you. And that'll scare somebody more than a lawyer will come after you.

Speaker 1:
[155:44] That's right. Well, it seems like they were going after, they're going after your marriage. And like, they, it's called blackmail techniques. Like, that's what it feels like. It's compromise systems. And you look at...

Speaker 2:
[155:57] Yeah, they weren't taking the legal angle at all.

Speaker 1:
[156:00] No. Which is really, if you want to enforce something, like, that's the way you do it, which is pretty wild. I mean, you see this stuff with the Epstein thing too, where it's just, they're just, clearly, is this distributed kind of compromise system. And it deals with spooky, I don't know if you're tracking any of this stuff, but like...

Speaker 2:
[156:18] Yeah, I started looking into it.

Speaker 1:
[156:19] Isn't it wild?

Speaker 2:
[156:20] Yeah, it's really wild.

Speaker 1:
[156:22] And then he says...

Speaker 2:
[156:23] And it's so widespread.

Speaker 1:
[156:25] It's widespread, and here's what's crazy. He's interviewed by Steve Bannon, and Epstein is, this is at the end of his life, and he goes, why did you put Zora Ranch where you put it? And he goes, well, a bunch of Los Alamos physicists were retiring, and so they were kind of aging out, and I wanted to speak with them.

Speaker 7:
[156:47] Los Alamos, which was the high-energy lab up in New Mexico, was losing all its scientists.

Speaker 4:
[156:53] And you bought your property out in New Mexico to be near that?

Speaker 7:
[156:56] Yes, because the scientists were going to be, they cut the funding for high-energy physics.

Speaker 1:
[157:01] And you're like, oh my God, how lax is our DOE, you know, Department of Energy Security? And then he realized, you know, Bill Richardson was kind of in with the Clintons, and he was the secretary of energy, and he's there, and he's just systematically siphoning American nuclear secrets. And then he goes, there's another email where he said, I killed ponds back in the day or whatever. And he's talking about ponds and Fleischman who are claiming to get cold fusion results. And so it's like, what is Epstein dealing with cold fusion? And then he's hanging out at Harvard with the math department.

Speaker 2:
[157:33] None of that makes any sense.

Speaker 1:
[157:34] It's weird.

Speaker 2:
[157:35] None of that makes any sense.

Speaker 1:
[157:36] Really strange.

Speaker 2:
[157:37] I used to drive by that ranch all the time. I lived really close to it when I lived in New Mexico.

Speaker 1:
[157:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[157:42] And they always called it the Victoria Secret Ranch because there were models there. Yeah. Everyone knew that as the Victoria Secret Ranch.

Speaker 1:
[157:49] So you would drive by Epstein's ranch and they would call it the Victoria Secret Ranch.

Speaker 2:
[157:53] I mean, not right by it, but as you drive it on the road, you can see it up on that.

Speaker 1:
[157:57] We know why they called it that. It's because he was close with Les Wexner, who was the CEO and founder of Victoria Secret.

Speaker 2:
[158:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[158:05] So you would drive by there and they would call it that.

Speaker 2:
[158:08] Everybody called it that, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[158:09] No way.

Speaker 2:
[158:10] We'd drive up to Los Alamos to pick up Alpha radiation probes, something my company did, and we'd come back. But yeah, every time we drove out, we passed by it a couple of times.

Speaker 1:
[158:22] That's so nuts. Damn. It's also for the people that disbelieve your stuff. It's like, look at all this bizarre. It's like this cabal is controlling science or something.

Speaker 5:
[158:37] It's so weird.

Speaker 2:
[158:38] That is really weird.

Speaker 5:
[158:39] Yeah. I'll say it. We're just talking about Epstein. That's one guy. It's one guy. It's not just one guy.

Speaker 1:
[158:50] Clearly not.

Speaker 5:
[158:51] No, it's not just one guy.

Speaker 1:
[158:54] He's a front.

Speaker 5:
[158:54] Yeah. It's not just one guy.

Speaker 2:
[158:56] He might have been the ringleader, but it's-

Speaker 5:
[158:58] There's a lot of people.

Speaker 1:
[159:00] Or he might have been an extension of something much.

Speaker 2:
[159:02] Yeah, he could be.

Speaker 1:
[159:03] But he was obsessed with the Casimir effect, and he would hold these-

Speaker 2:
[159:06] Oh, he was?

Speaker 1:
[159:07] Oh, yeah. He would hold these gravity conferences, and then the very fact that he's saying-

Speaker 2:
[159:12] Do you know that for a fact?

Speaker 1:
[159:14] Yeah. This is all in the emails. This is all a fact. Oh, it is? Yeah. There's an old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein, that talks about-

Speaker 2:
[159:19] It mentions the Casimir effect?

Speaker 1:
[159:20] Yeah. Yeah. This old colleague of mine, Eric Weinstein, has this theory of everything in physics, where it involves gauging gravity instead of quantizing gravity. It's really beyond my pay grade, but I find it interesting. Epstein somehow knew about his theory before just about anybody else did. So Weinstein's like, how is Epstein so tied in with the Harvard math department?

Speaker 2:
[159:47] Do you think it was just his hobby or something like science was his hobby, and he just had money so he had the ability to connect to these?

Speaker 1:
[159:57] You read his emails and it's like there's somebody behind him who knew exactly what to look for, but he didn't know. He was like a low-level version of it. So he'll say things like, you need to boost your physics. Time is much weirder than you think. It's actually just a function of the vibration of cesium atoms. You're like, who's giving you this stuff? Then he's mining people for the info and weird.

Speaker 2:
[160:23] I mean, did he said that? He said that, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[160:27] Which is true.

Speaker 2:
[160:29] It's an atomic clock.

Speaker 1:
[160:30] It's an atomic clock.

Speaker 2:
[160:30] It's just a vibrating cesium atom. So yeah, I mean, it's true. I don't know if that's what time is, but it's our perception of time.

Speaker 1:
[160:39] Time is very weird, isn't it? Wouldn't you say just from a pure physics perspective, it's an anomaly? It's strange? Yeah. Like, it's the most used noun in the English language, but we can only define it with respect to the movement of macroscopic bodies or to oscillations on an electromagnetic wave. But it's a thing that we're like, it's almost like fish in a fish bowl where the fish are trying to even describe what water is, but they can't because they're in it. We're in time.

Speaker 2:
[161:13] Yeah, you have to be outside of it to describe it. I mean, that's it and you can't be outside it. It's just a concept that makes us happy is what time is.

Speaker 1:
[161:24] Do you think that there's something about time being weird that might help explain some of the UFO stuff?

Speaker 2:
[161:31] Yeah, I think there's definitely something there.

Speaker 1:
[161:35] Yeah, because if gravity is off.

Speaker 2:
[161:37] There's gigantic chunks that are missing from physics. I think some people have access to that.

Speaker 1:
[161:46] Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I mean, the other thing that this guy, Burkhard Heim says is that the Cosmic Red Shift is the repulsive form of gravity. If you look at dark energy, you could literally just look it up. It's not one of the four fundamental forces, but it's just the universe is inflating.

Speaker 2:
[162:06] I'm not sure dark energy really exists. Right.

Speaker 1:
[162:11] And dark matter, too.

Speaker 2:
[162:12] Yeah, I'm not really buying either one of them.

Speaker 1:
[162:14] Dark matter's never been detected, but it's just there to-

Speaker 2:
[162:17] It's a placeholder.

Speaker 1:
[162:18] To justify gravity's weakness.

Speaker 2:
[162:20] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[162:20] Yeah. And then-

Speaker 2:
[162:22] I mean, to me, I always viewed that's what gravitons were. That's why this caught my attention, because he's back on the Graviton bandwagon.

Speaker 1:
[162:30] Well, gravitons are interesting because as early as the 50s, there's all this crazy hardcore anti-gravity research, and then it disappears.

Speaker 2:
[162:39] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[162:39] We had a bunch of people saying, we're going to beat gravity, it's right around the bend. There's a guy named George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation's RIAS, Research Institute for Advanced Study. And he was this really wacky thinker, and he worked with Louis Witten and probably Townsend Brown. And they would say, it's going to take us the time that it took to build the atom bomb to basically beat gravity. And they were Stanley Desser and Richard Arnowitt, who were famous physicists at the time from Princeton, were talking about gravitons. And they were like, we have a very clear theory of gravitons, and we know how to do this. And the two things that come up for gravity, where there's a lot of smoke but no fire, is the thing we just talked about with Buhler, extremely high electric field differentials creating thrust. And then the second thing is very fast rotating spinning superconductors. Those two things seem to have some-

Speaker 2:
[163:34] But is that actually gravity?

Speaker 1:
[163:36] So there's another force.

Speaker 2:
[163:38] Thirty years has gone by and I've kind of been doing my own research, and I'm just more convinced that I'm right about that.

Speaker 1:
[163:51] And can you say anything about that? What do you think you're right about?

Speaker 2:
[163:56] That there's another force and it's not gravity.

Speaker 1:
[163:59] And what is the- if you were to characterize that force as distinct from gravity. So gravity clearly you'd have all these other by-product effects, the photons and what does this force do that's different? What does it look like?

Speaker 2:
[164:16] Well, it's a repelling force. But I think it's something that works closer to the way you would think in a science fiction movie. You can have gravity and anti-gravity, but you really can. I think gravity is just an attractive force. I think this other force, you can to make- simplify it, push or pull. And I think it also affects the flow of time exactly like gravity does. I think it affects light. Some of the observations you would have with gravity would also overlap in this other force, but I think it's a unique force.

Speaker 1:
[164:57] Have you ever measured this force? Next question.

Speaker 2:
[165:11] All right. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[165:12] You have?

Speaker 2:
[165:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[165:14] How have you measured it?

Speaker 2:
[165:15] No, there's no follow-up question.

Speaker 1:
[165:17] Okay. Fine. Is there anything high level that you can say as far as the goal of your research, post the experience, like what you would love to do?

Speaker 2:
[165:31] Just to duplicate anything.

Speaker 1:
[165:32] Just to duplicate anything?

Speaker 2:
[165:33] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[165:34] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[165:35] I'm sure I can.

Speaker 1:
[165:36] You think you can?

Speaker 2:
[165:37] Yeah, I'm sure I can.

Speaker 1:
[165:38] You feel confident?

Speaker 2:
[165:39] I'm 100 percent confident. Yeah, I'm going to. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[165:43] Have you already gotten some interesting results?

Speaker 2:
[165:45] Yeah. Okay. That's why I'm 100 percent confident. Yeah. The thing is just to scale stuff up.

Speaker 1:
[165:50] Okay. What do you hope your legacy is? So like 200 years from now, a kid-

Speaker 2:
[165:56] No one's going to know who I am 200 years from now.

Speaker 1:
[165:59] I don't think that's right, man. Think about it. If there are this lineage of technology that is completely separate-

Speaker 2:
[166:07] Come on, I'm going to be overwritten by people. Look, there's other Bob Lazar's and things that are going to come along. Look what's happening to all the people that came out since then. There's going to be other people like me. Eventually, some more of this is going to come out.

Speaker 1:
[166:24] They're amazing people who've come out since you first informed us.

Speaker 2:
[166:27] Yeah. There's going to be bigger, more important ones that you just aren't going to look back to the 80s and think you're just going to focus on those guys.

Speaker 1:
[166:34] Well, I would put it the inverse. I would say if you have an army of people coming out after you, the fact that you're the first makes it even more interesting. I think it's more likely you'd be forgotten if no one comes out after you. Do you hope to vindicate your own experience through your own scientific experimentation?

Speaker 2:
[166:55] Yeah, I do.

Speaker 1:
[166:57] That's exciting. That's cool.

Speaker 2:
[167:00] But I have no idea what other people are doing. But I know exactly what not to do. That's what we did it us for. So it's actually a big leap forward.

Speaker 1:
[167:16] And you saw one hanging up against the wall?

Speaker 2:
[167:18] Yeah, it was sitting on the wall and it had, there's actually an error in the movie. It has one hole in the rim of it. Not two. But yeah, there was just a hole with it bent out, clearly bent out as if it was shot from the bottom.

Speaker 1:
[167:34] Why do you think, oh, and it looked like it was shot. Yeah. Interesting. So do you think it was shot with like a kinetic weapon, or mechanical weapon?

Speaker 2:
[167:42] No, no question.

Speaker 1:
[167:43] Well, and do you think it was a human weapon that shot it?

Speaker 2:
[167:47] I don't know. It looks like something we would have done, stand it up, shoot through it, see how we can penetrate this material.

Speaker 1:
[167:53] Wow. Have you ever heard anything about electromagnetic pulses in UFOs and them taking out UFOs, taking them down or anything?

Speaker 2:
[168:02] Well, that was the other directive of the project. It was-

Speaker 1:
[168:06] Directed energy.

Speaker 2:
[168:10] Well, yeah, it depends what you're talking about. There's, I mean, our directive was duplicate the propulsion system at any cost. It's directive one. And directive two was be able to disable the system at a distance at any cost.

Speaker 1:
[168:28] Do you think-

Speaker 2:
[168:29] And then, so that's somewhat directed energy, but then there is also project sidekick, which is a weapon. So that's also directed energy. So yeah, it kind of depends where you're going with that.

Speaker 1:
[168:43] I guess, had you heard of any UFOs prior to that, getting shot down with directed energy, with electromagnetic pull, okay.

Speaker 2:
[168:53] I think the only thing I ever heard prior to that was stories about the Roswell craft getting hit by lightning and crashing or something. I think it's the only.

Speaker 1:
[169:03] Are there any of these stories, like do you think that Roswell happened? Are there any of these stories you lend credence to?

Speaker 2:
[169:10] I don't know much about the Roswell crash, other than what I've heard, but it sure seems like they were working real hard to cover something up.

Speaker 1:
[169:19] That's true.

Speaker 5:
[169:21] The Roswell crash was not in one place only, though.

Speaker 1:
[169:29] It might have been a round of two.

Speaker 5:
[169:31] Yeah, I really think there was something that happened in the air, and there's debris that was scattered all over MacGrasl's ranch, and then there was the actual pod with the beings that was crashed, I think it was like two miles away, where the hikers found it with the kids that were hiking, and so clearly it was two different places, and the bamboo, the pieces that looked like bamboo with the the writing on it, that was at MacGrasl with the memory metal, and then the pod, the only information we have of that is the bodies, and one of them was already being eaten by some animals.

Speaker 1:
[170:14] No way. The body was being eaten by some animals?

Speaker 5:
[170:17] From what I remember reading at the time, one of them was obviously dead, and it was decaying. There was clearly some animals that got to it.

Speaker 1:
[170:26] Wow.

Speaker 5:
[170:27] So, but that was-

Speaker 2:
[170:28] I hadn't heard that. But the only thing I remember about that was Jesse Marcel was the-

Speaker 5:
[170:35] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[170:36] The officer, and he said when they came to take pictures or the pictures they took, he said, that wasn't the stuff that we found. Whoa.

Speaker 5:
[170:47] What General Ramey?

Speaker 2:
[170:49] Yeah. He said, yeah, they replaced it with these. He said, that's not what we found. Well, that's the guy.

Speaker 1:
[170:54] There's that iconic photo, and it's him with this tinfoil-y weather balloon thing.

Speaker 2:
[170:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[170:59] He claims that the material was right off to the side of the frame.

Speaker 2:
[171:03] It's so interesting. Yeah. That's not the stuff.

Speaker 1:
[171:05] And his son, who's an Air Force flight surgeon, said that he took the material home, and he played with the material.

Speaker 5:
[171:11] Yeah. On the kitchen table with his wife.

Speaker 2:
[171:13] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[171:14] And here's where stuff gets even crazier. In 1949, there is a contract between Battelle Memorial Institute and Wright Airfield, which turns into Wright-Patterson, which is where the wreckage, the Roswell Wreckage was rumored to be taken. And it's around different titanium alloys, and this titanium-nickel alloy and nitinol. Nitinol. Nitinol, as you know, Memory metal. is basically memory metal. And nitinol was classified, essentially, it showed up in a Navy lab in the 60s.

Speaker 2:
[171:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[171:48] And that's what Jesse Marcel describes the material as.

Speaker 2:
[171:52] Yeah, because that's really indestructible stuff. Yes. And I remember him saying, it's vernacular, we whacked that as hard as we could, and it didn't bend. And I remember that.

Speaker 5:
[172:08] They tried to burn it, they tried to cut into it.

Speaker 1:
[172:11] Yeah. And it just goes back into its original shape. And I just actually interviewed.

Speaker 2:
[172:16] Yeah. You can take that metal and flex it a million times, and it doesn't crack. It's what they, I mean, they use that in artificial hearts. Because it can keep flexing, and it just doesn't wear.

Speaker 1:
[172:32] It's wild. And then you have Philip Corso saying that he helped dole out a lot of this material, and it made it into the civil sector because of his position. He was, you know, Pentagon's, like, you know, foreign technology desk or whatever chief. And so you have this contract from 49. Nobody knew what Nitinol was, Nitinol was. And then in the 60s, it appears in public randomly at a Navy lab. It's interesting.

Speaker 2:
[172:59] That's really interesting. I never heard any of that.

Speaker 1:
[173:02] And I just interviewed a guy who was a witness, actually, of the Vargenia crash in the 1990s, 1996 in Brazil. And he says the same thing. He says he held the material in his hands and it went, he would kind of mess with it and then would go back into its original form. So did you ever experience anything like that with the material, that would go back into its original form? Did you hear anything about that?

Speaker 2:
[173:26] No, other than working with Nitenol.

Speaker 1:
[173:27] Yeah. But you did work with Nitenol.

Speaker 2:
[173:29] I sell it.

Speaker 1:
[173:30] But you didn't work with it at S4?

Speaker 2:
[173:33] No, not at S4.

Speaker 1:
[173:35] Okay. So you didn't hear anything around that there?

Speaker 2:
[173:37] No, not a peep.

Speaker 1:
[173:39] Did you hear anything about any other materials?

Speaker 2:
[173:41] No, that's material science. We're not allowed to know that stuff.

Speaker 1:
[173:44] Oh, okay. So that was a whole other...

Speaker 2:
[173:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[173:47] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[173:48] Yeah, which is really stupid.

Speaker 1:
[173:51] And you saw a photo or photos of an alien autopsy, right?

Speaker 2:
[173:56] Yeah, if in fact that was true.

Speaker 1:
[173:59] Do you think?

Speaker 2:
[173:59] Yeah, it was part of the briefing.

Speaker 1:
[174:01] What did the photos look like?

Speaker 2:
[174:06] I guess if you want to call it a gray, something small, it had a T cut in the chest and there was one single organ removed from the chest.

Speaker 1:
[174:17] Was that kind of a visceral experience for you? Was that kind of gnarly or were you like, no, at this point I'm going, what am I looking through?

Speaker 2:
[174:28] Yeah. It was just kind of all glancing through. Like, give me a break.

Speaker 1:
[174:39] There were rumors that the program was going to maybe move to Indonesia or Southeast Asia when you were leaving?

Speaker 2:
[174:46] No. They were anxious to move the project out of there completely. Ideally, they said they would have loved to go out to the South Pacific, maybe Kwajalein Island or something, but they said the expenses would have been so great, it's just impossible. But they just wanted to get away from ISE. It's just too close to things.

Speaker 1:
[175:08] If you had to guess, do you think that the program is completely out of Area51 and in some foreign place now?

Speaker 2:
[175:16] Yeah. I don't believe it's there anymore.

Speaker 1:
[175:18] That would make sense.

Speaker 5:
[175:20] I don't believe it's there.

Speaker 2:
[175:22] I think that moved way long ago.

Speaker 1:
[175:24] Yeah. You discovered Element 115, right?

Speaker 2:
[175:28] It wasn't discovered. It's something Barry and I were working on. You can't really say I discovered it.

Speaker 1:
[175:36] Okay. I thought your contribution was that you discovered it.

Speaker 2:
[175:40] Our contribution. It was what I was doing.

Speaker 1:
[175:42] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[175:43] Yeah. But what I can't say it was just me.

Speaker 1:
[175:46] What technique?

Speaker 2:
[175:47] It was the, God, what the hell was it that we were using? Oh, atomic absorption spectroscopy.

Speaker 1:
[175:56] Atomic absorption spectroscopy.

Speaker 2:
[175:58] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[175:59] And you did that?

Speaker 2:
[176:00] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had the equipment there. We also had to do X-ray diffraction too. Wow. Barry was much more familiar with the equipment. Wow.

Speaker 1:
[176:12] But you don't know the exact isotope?

Speaker 2:
[176:15] No.

Speaker 1:
[176:15] Did you know it at one point? Like when you discovered it?

Speaker 2:
[176:18] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[176:19] You did?

Speaker 2:
[176:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[176:20] But you forgot the-

Speaker 2:
[176:21] Yeah. I have no idea.

Speaker 1:
[176:23] Oh, man. Because that would be-

Speaker 2:
[176:24] Yeah. I know it would really help. It would really help.

Speaker 1:
[176:27] It would also be a Nobel Prize for you. It would be like, oh my God, they figured out a new isotope at that level.

Speaker 2:
[176:34] But I'd have to be able to produce it or-

Speaker 1:
[176:36] Sure.

Speaker 2:
[176:36] You know, I do.

Speaker 1:
[176:37] Right.

Speaker 5:
[176:37] Right. Right.

Speaker 1:
[176:38] So it doesn't matter anyway, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[176:39] I mean, but the lab in Darmstadt, Germany produced a few atoms of 115. So I mean, they discovered 115.

Speaker 1:
[176:48] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[176:48] So I mean, they made it, you know, we recognized it.

Speaker 1:
[176:53] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[176:54] So I don't think it would help you because it's not like, you know, the way we try to synthesize, you know, new elements is, you know, taking ions and smashing them together. And it's kind of whatever comes out, comes out. It's not like you can go, we're going to make a specific isotope and make it all stick together. It's just like, you know, it's the old smashing the Swiss watch against a concrete wall. Ooh, look what came out. You know, that's it.

Speaker 1:
[177:22] If you possibly took a little bit home though, could you do some of those techniques again?

Speaker 2:
[177:26] No, I couldn't.

Speaker 1:
[177:27] You couldn't because you don't have the equipment.

Speaker 2:
[177:29] You need the equipment. I mean, you need the equipment like, you know, accelerators and things. That's something I like that.

Speaker 1:
[177:38] So you wouldn't have the stable isotope at home? Or you do? Or maybe?

Speaker 2:
[177:44] Well, I don't have it at my house.

Speaker 1:
[177:46] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[177:47] That's what you're asking.

Speaker 1:
[177:48] But didn't you at one point maybe take it home?

Speaker 2:
[177:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[177:53] So that, but then-

Speaker 2:
[177:54] Are we recording?

Speaker 1:
[177:56] Yeah, but-

Speaker 5:
[177:57] So no.

Speaker 2:
[177:59] So no.

Speaker 1:
[178:00] Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[178:02] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[178:03] But then can't, but then can you figure out the isotope if theoretically you did or no?

Speaker 2:
[178:09] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[178:10] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[178:11] Yeah, you could. All I'd have to do is have it again.

Speaker 1:
[178:14] Okay. Oh, I see. That's a bummer. I hosted a debate between Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis. Eric Weinstein is this former colleague of mine who is a physicist, and then Eric Davis is this other guy in UFO world who focuses on exotic propulsion. Weinstein said that, he was kind of exasperated. He was like, why are there no theoretical physicists on the program? But you talk about theoretical physicists on site at S4.

Speaker 2:
[178:49] Oh, for sure.

Speaker 1:
[178:51] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[178:51] I think they were exhausted by them. And I think they kept going over that road and never got anywhere.

Speaker 1:
[178:58] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[178:58] And they were looking for just, let's just do something out of left field and see what we come up with. So, no, I don't know. Again, that's what made me think this isn't gravity at all. This is a new force entirely. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[179:13] And you know what I found interesting too is you said Bismuth seemed to have come up. Like that was something.

Speaker 2:
[179:18] There is something about Bismuth.

Speaker 1:
[179:24] You might be starting to notice a through line starting to emerge in this conversation, and it keeps leading back to the same place. To put it bluntly, Bob's work at S4 looks a whole lot like all of the documented knowledge we have on anti-gravity experiments done in the last 100 years. Now, again, these claims don't lie in the realm of conventional proven science. But while there's no proverbial fire, there is a whole lot of smoke around them. I'm talking not only of the experiments of Townsend Brown, but of Eugene Pakletnov, Ning Li, and others. And one single element might tie all of these stories together. Bismuth. There's a reason why Bob Lazar kept hearing about it at S4. Here's why Bismuth matters. We'll break down the science as clearly as we can. It starts with something called a K-factor. A K-factor, or dielectric constant, is simply a material's ability to store and discharge electric fields. Now this has important implications for historical antigravity experiments. You see, the higher the K-factor, the more thrust or propulsion you see in Townsend Brown's capacitor experiments. Brown spent his career searching for high-K materials that could amplify the effect he'd discovered. Bismuth is one of them, and it's often mentioned in the context of his antigravity work. There's even an interview from this guy, Louis Whitten, who's at RIAS, which is Martin Corporation pre-Lockheed merger, their antigravity outfit, where they were studying sort of the most exotic propulsion modalities. And he says in this interview with the American Institute of Physics, there was a guy named Townsend who claimed to have an isotope of Bismuth that repelled instead of attracted. Material that works well for historical antigravity experiments comes up in the UFO reverse engineering program. Go figure, but it gets weirder. Bismuth and Element 115, Muscovian, share the same number of valence electrons. Valence electrons are the electrons in the outermost shell of an atom, the ones that determined how an element bonds, reacts and behaves chemically. Bismuth has five. Muscovian or Element 115 has five. They sit in the same column of the periodic table, group 15, which means they have essentially the same chemical personality, the same bonding geometry, the same family of crystal structures, the same tendency to form the layered compounds that produce the most exotic quantum behavior known to material science. Lazar described Element 115 as the fuel source for the craft's propulsion system. Mind you, this was in 1989, before Element 115 had ever been synthesized or named. When it finally was synthesized in 2003, it turned out to be Enictogen, a group 15 element, the same chemical family as Bismuth. And Bismuth is basically the most electromagnetically bizarre stable element on earth. That's either the most chemically literate lucky guess in history, or it isn't a guess at all. Now here's where the science gets genuinely strange. Bismuth is one of the most unusual elements on the periodic table. Most high-K materials are passive. They sit there holding charge and do nothing else. Bismuth is different. It fights back. Expose Bismuth to a magnetic field, and instead of being attracted the way iron pushes towards a magnet, it pushes away. This property is called diamagnetism, and Bismuth has more of it than any other stable element on earth. Not slightly more. Dramatically. Anomalously. Inexplicably more. The reason lives inside the atom itself. Every electron does two things simultaneously. It orbits the nucleus like a planet around a star, and it spins on its own axis like a tiny top. In lighter elements, these two motions barely register each other, but Bismuth sits near the bottom of the periodic table at Element 83. One of the heaviest stable elements that exists. And in super heavy elements, something extraordinary happens. The electrons in the outer shell move so fast that they enter what physicists call the relativistic regime. They're traveling at a meaningful fraction of the speed of light. And when something moves that fast, the universe starts playing by different rules. At those speeds, Einstein's physics takes over from Newton's. One consequence is that these screaming, hurling outer electrons generate a powerful magnetic field just from their own motion. And that magnetic field slams into their own spin. This is a process called spin-orbit coupling. And in bismuth, it's ferociously strong. So strong that bismuth's electrons become, in a sense, magnetically self-aware. Generating an opposing field in response to anything applied to them from the outside. So that's why bismuth has anomalous diamagnetism. The electrons aren't just passive, they're pushing back.

Speaker 2:
[184:42] The most amazing thing is, leaning into it, putting all your force on that, nothing moves at all. And when the reactor's off, you can easily slide it.

Speaker 1:
[184:52] This also makes bismuth a natural topological dopant. Meaning when you introduce it into certain crystalline materials, it induces what physicists call topologically protected quantum states. These are electron states so geometrically locked into the structure of the material that they can't be destroyed by disorder or impurities. They are in a very real sense protected by the shape of reality itself. Element 115, with the same five outer electrons as bismuth, would have dramatically stronger relativistic effects, and it would theoretically be an even more powerful topological dopant. Best-hosted physicists predict in calcogenide crystal structures, which happen to be the exact crystal family that bismuth-based topological insulators already prefer. Same column, same electrons, the dial just turned up to a level we've never engineered. Okay, I know what you're thinking. How do you get from this exotic chemistry jargon to UFO propulsion, or a force that bends spacetime? Well, here's where the chemistry ends, and something bigger begins. In Einstein's general relativity, energy and momentum in all forms, including the energy stored in fast-spinning relativistic electrons, technically curves spacetime. Every electron is, in the most literal physical sense, warping the fabric of the universe around it. Now, for ordinary matter, this effect is so incomprehensibly tiny, it effectively doesn't exist. But a small group of serious physicists began asking dangerous questions in the 1990s. What if, instead of spinning randomly in all directions, their gravitational effects canceling each other into noise, you could align them into a single coherent state, all pointing in the same direction, all pushing together? This was the life's work of Dr. Ning Li, a physicist who dared to dabble in antigravity. More specifically, she worked in Gravito-Magnetic Theory. Li was a woman who eventually left her position at the University of Alabama, Huntsville, to work full-time at Redstone Arsenal. On research so sensitive, it effectively vanished from public view. The chair of her department at University of Alabama, Huntsville, Larry Smalley, was so high conviction in her work that he left with her. Before she died, Li proposed that in superconductors, materials where electrons surrender their individual identities and merge into a collective quantum state. The Gravito-Magnetic effect of those electrons, normally washed away by thermal chaos, would suddenly snap into alignment. They'd become coherent, directional. She was trying to build a gravity engine in a laboratory. Let's compare that with Bob Lazar's work on UFOs in the 80s. Years before Ning Li's work ever became public, Lazar described three cylindrical emitters at the base of a craft. The emitters at the base of Lazar's craft didn't produce thrust in the traditional sense. They didn't push against air or expel mass. They generated a directed alteration of the gravitational field itself. That the craft would then just fall into, not propulsion, geometry. The craft didn't move through space. It literally bent space, and space carried it. That description, organized field generating devices producing a directional gravitational effect by aligning and focusing a force that normally cancels itself to zero, is structurally, almost precisely, what Ning Li was theorizing in a laboratory thousands of miles away, using completely different source material, arriving at exactly the same place years later.

Speaker 2:
[188:57] When the craft is in operation, there is a high voltage detectable on the skin of the craft.

Speaker 1:
[189:04] And then there's the hull of the craft. Lazar said that he believed the craft's hull material was an electric, basically a material that permanently stores an electric field, the electrical equivalent of a permanent magnet.

Speaker 2:
[189:17] I think the material the craft is made from is an electric. And so it only just like a magnet always has a magnetic field to it, an electric always has an electrostatic field to it. And I think that's certainly something important.

Speaker 1:
[189:33] Again, bismuth titanate is one of the finest electric materials known, used in high temperature sensor applications precisely because of its stability. Now if you were designing a hull material for a craft that needed to interact with gravity wave emitters, maintain a permanent electric field, and respond to both electric and magnetic stimuli simultaneously, the material that checks every single box is bismuth ferrite. That's right, again with the bismuth, it's a material that is simultaneously ferroelectric and magnetic, where the two properties talk to each other, where you can control one with the other. No other readily available material sits at the intersection of diamagnetism, topological insulator behavior, high k-dielectrics, electric properties and multi-ferroic coupling simultaneously. But bismuth does, and a theoretical stable version of Element 115 might do all of those things on steroids. Bismuth sits right at the edge of where relativistic electron behavior begins to dominate everything. By the time you get to Muscovium, you might have full-fledged space-time engineering. And then what's really interesting is Gary Nolan has this magnesium bismuth piece in his lab at Stanford. You'd need some sort of motive to, you know, with in certain cases heavier elements, create isotope ratios that you just don't find. It doesn't make any sense. And then it also, the thing was found alongside an observed anomaly in the sky in a crash, and it was like in the 50s or 60s, like one of which was literally a beach in Brazil, Ubatuba. And the similarity between Brown and Buhler's anti-gravity in Lazar's sports model don't stop there. Brown would use DC pulsing and kind of high climb rates of the voltage, so the voltage would, there would be a steep climb rate where it would increase very, very sharply. The microsizing waveguides for terahertz, you could have very high frequency energy going into the craft.

Speaker 2:
[191:47] There's something about Bismuth, I think, that's undiscovered.

Speaker 1:
[191:52] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[191:53] And so much that we're unable to do because it's at the limit of our technology.

Speaker 1:
[192:01] Bismuth at S4, Bismuth in Townsend Brown's experiments, Bismuth's properties in Ning Li's Gravito-Magnetic Theory. Bismuth as an ideal hull material for a UFO exactly like the one Lazar described. Bismuth in the UFO samples that Stanford Professor Gary Nolan is analyzing right now.

Speaker 3:
[192:21] The preponderance of evidence now and the Department of Defense admitting that these things are real, that the data is real, is no conclusions, the data is real.

Speaker 2:
[192:42] There's so much more than there was 40 years ago. I mean, all these guys are at the cutting edge. All my information is so old and probably outdated. So, who knows how the craft operate now or what kind of craft they're using, or if they're even manned. So, I think everything I know is outdated. It's just interesting to look back at. I don't take any money from this stuff. As far as attention, I hate fucking attention. I don't like being on shows. I just want to kind of hide in the corner and do my own thing. So, I got enough hugs when I was a kid.

Speaker 1:
[193:23] And do you feel like you've, on the first Rogan episode, you had migraines. Do you feel like you've suffered, like your anxiety levels are higher than they would be?

Speaker 2:
[193:34] Yeah, I've had five heart attacks since I was on the Hoke Rogan's. And my arteries are clear. It's all stress.

Speaker 1:
[193:44] I'm sorry, man.

Speaker 2:
[193:44] I just had shingles all through my face, almost made me go blind again was from stress. Yeah, it just wears you down over time.

Speaker 1:
[193:56] I hope you know you're loved and appreciated and you should be able to just zone out the world with where you're at in life right now, and just enjoy the fruits of this amazing.

Speaker 2:
[194:07] That would be cool. I am so hoping to be able to retire at some point, where I don't have to deal with insane customers or.

Speaker 3:
[194:17] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[194:18] I could just sit at home and read books like this.

Speaker 1:
[194:21] I think that time is very, very soon. And I think it's the best use of your brain power too, because I want to see.

Speaker 2:
[194:27] I'd actually like to get back into this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[194:30] That'd be amazing. Well, I'll send you interesting people.

Speaker 2:
[194:33] Yeah. Well, I'll consume everything you can send.

Speaker 1:
[194:37] I love it.

Speaker 4:
[194:38] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[194:40] Be careful what you wish for. Well, Bob Luigi, this was a total honor. And you should be so proud because I know you were into this stuff. I feel very lucky when people say like, oh, like you should feel vindicated. They'll say that to me. And I'm like, what the fuck are you talking? I was like, I got very lucky with the timing of like when I got into this stuff. But truly, I speak to you and I'm like, oh my God. Like there are people like yourself who have been into this stuff for decades in a totally thankless way. Like not only thankless, but less than thankless, ostracized, exiled, laughed at constantly. And so to anybody out there saying, Luigi is cashing in on a movie or something like that, fuck off. You don't know what you're talking about. It's poetic justice and karma that you made this movie, truly. So I want you to know that.

Speaker 5:
[195:42] I appreciate that.

Speaker 1:
[195:43] Yeah, man. Did you ever think that we'd be here now? That we'd be on our podcast watching you on Joe Rogan with Bob yesterday.

Speaker 5:
[195:56] When you guys were talking, I was reading a message from my sister, Veronica, who's been, it's hard for me to see it that way because you can't imagine everything that happened. For me to get it from her is like the biggest success because I put her in danger because of this. I didn't know if it was going to work. I still don't know where it's going, but we just went for it. Knowing that all the past, there's a lot of negative associated to it. I'm so proud of the team. I'm proud of Chris Matto, that's like my right hand and all. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Chris. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Veronica. It wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Emily, that was at the office taking care of everything. We all know who that is. It wouldn't exist for Vanessa to be doing all this minutiae work online and finding all. We wouldn't have found the Ed Teller tape if it wasn't for Vanessa. This was scary.

Speaker 2:
[197:13] This is frightening. This project depleted your company to zero.

Speaker 5:
[197:17] To zero and we were attacked. Nobody knows this, but we were attacked ferociously for over a year and a half.

Speaker 1:
[197:25] Yeah. I know the full story and we probably can't get too into the weeds, but I'll just say high level, there was some really crazy scary fuckery that occurred with you on an institutional debanking level kind of thing where it's like, what sort of power do these people have as far as the antibodies going against you?

Speaker 2:
[197:52] In unbelievable stuff.

Speaker 5:
[197:53] Yeah. If you say it, it sounds so crazy that you don't want to say it because people won't be.

Speaker 2:
[198:04] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[198:04] They're like, give me a break. Come on.

Speaker 5:
[198:05] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[198:07] Have you experienced that your whole life? Have you experienced little things like that?

Speaker 2:
[198:11] Oh, yeah. But I didn't expect this to happen to Luigi, not coming from those people. Yeah. Demanding Luigi, we want all your communications with Bob Lazar.

Speaker 5:
[198:23] Yeah. On a court document.

Speaker 2:
[198:25] On a court document. Yeah, we want. What the hell are you talking about?

Speaker 5:
[198:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[198:29] Have you ever gotten something like, sir, we can't accept your payment here? You're like, what? Anything like that? It's a little weird.

Speaker 2:
[198:37] What do you mean?

Speaker 1:
[198:37] We can't accept. Something like there's something going on in the background of some routine thing you're trying to do. Go to a bank, you go to a store.

Speaker 2:
[198:48] We don't want to deal with you.

Speaker 1:
[198:49] We don't want to deal with you, and you're like, why?

Speaker 2:
[198:51] Yeah. A long time ago, a couple of things like that happened decades ago. Do you remember? No. I don't remember specifically.

Speaker 1:
[199:00] But people kind of messing with you.

Speaker 2:
[199:02] But yeah, on an official level, they said, you're radioactive. We don't want to deal with you.

Speaker 1:
[199:07] It's tough, man. Well, you found the one gig you could get, which is selling a lot of this crazy stuff to you. It's cool. Well, this has been such an honor. I really appreciate you both.

Speaker 2:
[199:21] It's always fun coming.

Speaker 5:
[199:23] It's always fun, Jesse. It's always great, man.

Speaker 1:
[199:27] Okay, so there are orange-reddish UFOs that have been flying around Area51 since the 80s and 90s that wobble like they're on a wave at low altitudes. The sports model UFO Bob worked on might use principles similar to documented anti-gravity research, and crafts of non-human origin are being recovered at the bottom of our oceans all over the world by the Navy. Bob Lazar will either be forgotten entirely by history, as he predicts, or as I predict, he'll be heralded as a canary in the coal mine, the forerunner in a stampede of revolutionary new science. Whether you believe or disbelieve his story, it should be treated as a puzzle, with very real truths underlying it meant to be discovered by those who take the initiative. So if you think there's something to any of this, don't let up. As the first man on the moon Neil Armstrong once cryptically said, There are great ideas undiscovered.

Speaker 4:
[200:27] Breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of truth's protective layers. Players, players, players.

Speaker 1:
[200:46] If you're still watching, and you made it through all of the exotic UFO science, you're one of the first to hear about this. We just dropped a new limited merch collection. Two tees, one off-white, one vintage black, plus hat. The design has a timeless retro future feel. You can wear it every day. If you've been watching the show lately, you've probably already seen me wearing it. This is a limited run, so when it's gone, it's gone. Head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab the believe drop today. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO-T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.