transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] One of my favorite things about what you do is using data to bust myths.

Speaker 2:
[00:03] Manicures and pedicures are safe during pregnancy.

Speaker 1:
[00:06] Is sex okay?

Speaker 2:
[00:07] Can I exercise? Can you eat spicy food? Can you drink wine?

Speaker 1:
[00:11] We created a debunking myths game.

Speaker 2:
[00:13] Oh, great.

Speaker 1:
[00:14] Pregnant women shouldn't drink coffee.

Speaker 2:
[00:16] That is a...

Speaker 1:
[00:17] You can't eat sushi while pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[00:19] Also...

Speaker 1:
[00:20] Natural birth is better.

Speaker 2:
[00:21] I hate the phrase natural birth.

Speaker 1:
[00:23] Breast milk or formula.

Speaker 2:
[00:25] People will tell you breastfeeding is free. It's like, I'm sorry, does my time have no value?

Speaker 1:
[00:32] Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. And today's topic is one that you are always asking for. And today's guest is someone that has been in high demand. So I'm so excited she's here. Parenting has never come with more information or potentially more anxiety. And today we're joined by bestselling author and economist, Emily Oster, whose books Expecting Better and Cryptsheet sparked a global conversation about what the data actually says. If you've ever wondered whether all this advice is helping or just making parenting more complicated, this is the conversation we've all been waiting for. Emily Oster, welcome to On Purpose.

Speaker 2:
[01:14] Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Speaker 1:
[01:16] This is such an important subject matter that I feel deserves to have time, energy, effort put into it's going to transform our lives, the lives of the children you love the most. I'm so grateful that you've dedicated so much of your life to doing this work so impactfully.

Speaker 2:
[01:33] No, I'm so delighted to be here. I mean, I think parenting is hard, but also incredibly fun and I feel really lucky to get to be part of people's journey even a little bit.

Speaker 1:
[01:42] Absolutely. We've probably never had this much data on parenting.

Speaker 2:
[01:47] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[01:47] Has that made parenting better or are we still just overwhelmed?

Speaker 2:
[01:51] I think, yes, I know. I don't think there's a simple answer to that question. There are clearly places where we have gotten data and we can talk about specific examples where we've learned something from the data that has improved survival or the experience of parenting or something that makes everyone happier and I think there are really good examples of that in the evidence. It is also true that living in an environment where one is constantly fed, the data says, the data says, the data says or where people are constantly looking for, what is the evidence that's going to tell me that I'm doing this right? I think that's actually quite stressful and sometimes makes parenting much harder. Some of the time I wish I could help people think more about, here are the pieces of data that are going to help you craft your approach and here is the stuff that really doesn't matter, what you do and stop trying to look for the right answer because anything is fine.

Speaker 1:
[02:50] Data is really useful, but it is really overwhelming. How do you approach it differently in a way that's actually helping people?

Speaker 2:
[02:55] Yes. I think there's really two core pieces of what I'm trying to do for people. One is trying to help them understand which of the pieces of data they're seeing are real and which are not. There's a lot of confusion of correlation and causation. People told, well, if you do this for your kid, they'll be better in this way, but if you dive into the data, you find that link is not causal. Then the second piece is trying to help people prioritize and say, here are some things that are really important, and then here are some things which even if they mattered a little bit, they can't matter a lot. Recognizing that parents have a limited capacity, that we all have a limited capacity to focus on a million different things at once, our goal should be to figure out what really matters, and then what really matters enough, that it should be sort of top priority, and then we kind of do the pieces that we can do in the constraints that we have.

Speaker 1:
[03:51] What's the most shocking piece of data that you've come across looking at parenting resets that really struck you?

Speaker 2:
[03:57] So when I was working on Expecting Better, one of the things I looked at was bed rest, which is actually prescribed to a fairly large share of people for a lot of different complications. So people are just told, you know, and you can sort of see logically where that might, you might feel like, well, if you're at risk of preterm birth, maybe if you just lay down, like, I don't know, the baby will stay in or like, there's some kind of logic that connects there. But when you actually look at the data, there's almost no condition for which bed rest is helpful. And many conditions for which it's in many ways in which it's actually harmful. This is something where it's so obvious in the data that what we're doing is not the right thing. And it was one of the things that galvanized me to think, okay, we actually really need to show people what the evidence says so they can make better choices.

Speaker 1:
[04:45] Absolutely. I want to talk about today, like lots of different kind of phases of the journey of parenting. And I wanted to start with getting pregnant. From what I'm hearing from people who are trying to get pregnant, it's all about thinking like, getting everything right, having some control. What's your take on how much we can control when you're trying to get pregnant?

Speaker 2:
[05:05] It's a lot more limited than people think. Getting pregnant is very stressful for many people, and particularly in an environment where, the environment I think a lot of my readers come in, where you've waited a long, you're a little older, which does, we know fertility declines with age, it doesn't drop off a cliff, but it goes down. And also people have waited and made a lot of investments and thought, okay, this is the right time in my life, and now they want to be pregnant now. It's like I waited, I decided the right month, this is my month. And then it like doesn't happen that month and you're like, wait, but this was my month. And so I think there's a kind of tension that comes with that. And that unfortunately makes people who are trying to get pregnant quite vulnerable to being told all kinds of stuff that they could do that is not based on evidence, but often costs quite a lot of money to improve their chances. For example, buy these really expensive prenatal vitamins. For me, that's like the most, it is important to take a prenatal vitamin, the one at CVS that costs 10 cents a pill is fine. It has the things that you need. People are buying these prenatal vitamins that cost me $150 a month, and say, don't you want to give your baby the best start with the best? Vitamins are all the same. You don't need to spend, so that's like just one small example, and so much of that marketing is preying on this feeling of like, well, I got to get this right, I got to get this right. The reality is when you think about what matters for getting pregnant, there's a few things, so one is having sex at the right time. So it's pretty clear there's only a small number of days in the cycle where you can get pregnant, and so some cycle tracking and knowing when you're ovulating is important. And then you need sperm that is working. So I think the other piece of this that maybe I think people are almost under-investing in is we spend so much time with women thinking about all the things that we need to do, and it is true that that is half of the equation, but you also need good sperm. And I actually think we're probably under-investing in having men do some like preconception sperm testing. It's not that hard to do, not really very hard at all. And there are a bunch of things that men can do to improve their quality of the sperm, if it turns out you have a sperm issue. So people said to me, like, what should I do? I would say track your cycle so you can figure out when you're ovulating, make sure you have sex at the right time, and get your partner's sperm tested. And then, you know, don't binge drink and quit smoking. That's kind of it.

Speaker 1:
[07:28] Those are the things within your control.

Speaker 2:
[07:30] Those are the main things within your control.

Speaker 1:
[07:31] Yeah. And what were some of the recommendations for men who wanted to improve their sperm count or improve their sperm quality as well?

Speaker 2:
[07:38] So a lot of those are about, there's sort of like a category of substances. So smoking, cigarettes, or marijuana, heavy drinking, these are all known to affect sperm mobility. You need enough of them, they need to be good at swimming, they need to have the right shape. And smoking and drinking affect all of those parameters. The other thing is heat. So sperm don't like to be hot. Testicles don't make good sperm when they're hot. And so sometimes people keep their testicles too hot. If you're doing a lot of hot tub or a lot of sauna, you're wearing like very tight underwear that can affect sperm count. So sometimes loosening up the underwear, quitting the sauna can be helpful.

Speaker 1:
[08:20] I like how you've already simplified it to a few things that we can control.

Speaker 2:
[08:23] I think that that's both very helpful and often for many people very frustrating. Because actually, I think the way, if you want to get this done, you want to be doing something about it every day. Like that's at least for many of the people, like for myself when I was in this position, like we were trying to get pregnant. I wanted to be investing. Every day I want something to do that's going to move me forward. And the advice of like, well, okay, as long as you've done these things, you pretty much just like, it's just a dice roll. Like, you know, if you get it exactly right, maybe there's a 30% chance in a given month that you will get pregnant and get another try the next month and that's sort of all there is. I think that can feel like, well, I wanted to be like, but what can I do? And I think that is where we get into people feeling, willing to do a variety of other things that feel more like investment. I'll often tell people like, you can track, you know, you want to like track your cycle, like set yourself up a spreadsheet, like enter something in an app every day. If that's the thing that makes you feel like you're moving forward.

Speaker 1:
[09:23] What are some of the mistakes people can make during pregnancy that have post-pregnancy complications?

Speaker 2:
[09:29] So there are certainly some behaviors during pregnancy that have potential very long-term impacts. So you binge drinking, heavy alcohol consumption during pregnancy, smoking cigarettes during pregnancy, also not good. And there of course are some medications that are very counter-indicated during pregnancy. So those are kind of the big behavioral issues that we would point to in terms of contributing to birth defects. I get an awful lot of questions from people that are very, very worried about extremely unlikely exposures or very minimal concerns. And I think the reality is there are some of these big concerns, but there isn't a bunch of other stuff that you shouldn't be doing that matters a tremendous amount. There just isn't.

Speaker 1:
[10:14] And there is research. We're just saying that the research doesn't show anything having that bigger. We have studied these things deeply enough and looked at them.

Speaker 2:
[10:22] Yes. And of course, we can always do more research. But I would say there's a sort of a couple of pieces how we might think about evidence in that case. So one is, there are places where we've studied this and we can see there's no correlation. In some of those cases, you say, well, what if there's a very tiny effect? We don't have an infinite amount of data. And I'd say, yeah, there are almost anything you could say, well, couldn't there be a very tiny effect? But those effects are going to be so tiny that we probably shouldn't care about them. They are in the rounding error of everything else that you're going to do. And so in some sense, getting back to something I said at the beginning, I think a lot of this is about thinking about prioritizing and understanding that we want to make choices about things that are important and not obsessed about every tiny thing even if maybe doing this one thing could, on average, cost your kid.0001 IQ points. Like, that's not important. You shouldn't be worried about that. So I think that's one reason we don't know this. And then there are many things where mechanistically it's impossible. The other day somebody asked me, my lawn was treated with pesticides and then I went outside and I touched it. I washed my hands really carefully, but now I'm really worried. There is no mechanism whereby touching a lawn, even recently treated with pesticides, and then washing your hands would actually impact your pregnancy. Like literally no mechanism. And so it's not an interesting thing to study, but it is impossible.

Speaker 1:
[11:46] Yeah. What's a study that hasn't been done that you would love to see happen?

Speaker 2:
[11:50] There are almost an infinite number of things like that. I mean, I think what...

Speaker 1:
[11:54] What would be your top three?

Speaker 2:
[11:55] The one I would really, really like to see is a large randomized trial about SSRIs. So a lot of women come into pregnancy using antidepressants. Antidepressants are really important for a lot of people's daily functioning. Our evidence on the safety of antidepressants is a little more complicated. So there are some evidence suggesting they may raise the risk of postpartum hemorrhage. So not much in the direction of affecting the baby, but some things about health. And just in general, that evidence isn't perfect. We don't have a randomized... We don't have large randomized trials. I would like to see large randomized trials because I think many people are avoiding these medications because they are worried about the quality of the evidence, but they are avoiding them when they would be very helpful. And I suspect that those trials would give us a much better platform from which to make decisions about this thing where there is just a very clear trade-off between some potential risks we don't know that much about and the very real benefits. So SSRI trials, what I like.

Speaker 1:
[12:57] That would be so fascinating, I feel, because with the amount of rise in people needing mental health medications, antidepressants, whatever it may be in that space, only going up and knowing how that really correlates would make for very, very insight. What does it take to get something like that done? Like, do you-

Speaker 2:
[13:14] It's hard.

Speaker 1:
[13:15] Probably already happening?

Speaker 2:
[13:16] That's definitely not happening. Okay. I think it's very hard to do a study like that for a bunch of different reasons. So one is, even the design, you worry a little about ethics. So you couldn't do a study where you forced some people to be antidepressants. Now, that's something you could get around. I think you could say, we have a bunch of people who are on antidepressants, with some of them, we're going to encourage them to go off, and we're going to not encourage them. Again, that has some ethical issues, but you probably could get it. You'll probably get that through. I think the other issue is, I'm not sure who's going to fund that. If you think about how science works, a lot of what gets, drug companies fund a lot of trials. All these drugs are on generic at this point, so we're a large share of them, so the drug companies are not going to be interested in funding those trials. It isn't clear that the NIH is interested in funding that trial either. I think we're up against some ethics and also some real funding limitations. People don't like to experiment on pregnant women, which is for some good reasons, but it has some costs.

Speaker 1:
[14:22] Yeah. I was going to ask you, what's one thing that pregnant women worry about that you'd like them to stop worrying about and start focusing on something else?

Speaker 2:
[14:30] One thing is people worry a tremendous amount about what they eat. I think that that's overblown. Actually, most of the food restrictions that people are told about don't make any sense. People worry a lot about exercise. There's a lot that people are told, don't exercise in this way. Actually, most of those, again, are totally overblown restrictions, and people should be encouraged to keep doing what they are already doing. I think people should, if you said, what should you replace that with? I think people could do more to prepare their marriage and home life for the arrival of another person that requires all of your time and money.

Speaker 1:
[15:13] What would you recommend? How would you go about thinking about that?

Speaker 2:
[15:15] If you think about what happens when you have a kid to your marriage, you are introducing a new person, somebody who you- there's a new project, there's a new group project, and you care more about this group project than you have ever cared about anything in your entire life, but you have no idea how to do it. And you're working with another person who also has no idea how to do it, but really, really cares, and you might not agree. And also, you're extremely tired because you haven't slept and you don't have as much money or time as you did before. It's a terrible group project environment. And so, I think during the pregnancy is a good opportunity to prepare for, like, how can we make this group project as good as possible, knowing that it comes with some challenges. And so, one thing I tell people all the time, and I think everyone should do, is put meetings on your calendar for after the baby is born. That there should be a bi-weekly check-in meeting with your partner, where you sit down and you talk about, like, what's going well, what's not going well, what could we do differently? This is, sort of, comes a little bit out of some of what we know about, kind of, marital satisfaction, which is people like a marital checkup. It's an opportunity to say, here's the things I'm doing, here's what I'm feeling resentful about, you know, an opportunity to connect in a kind of low, sort of, in a cool state rather than in a hot state. But I think early on in people's life, you need this much more. And if you don't put those meetings on the calendar before you have the baby, you will never have them because you will not, once the group project starts, you're not going to schedule meetings because of all the other stuff I already said.

Speaker 1:
[16:52] Yeah, I mean, that sounds like really wise advice, especially when you explain it like a group project, that the environment isn't really set up for.

Speaker 2:
[17:00] A lot of parenting is about, if you're parenting with another person, is about managing that relationship. We assume that it's all going to be great because we love the other person. And I think there's a little bit of saying like you could love someone, but still running a business with them is different. And this is a little bit more like running a business than I think most people think.

Speaker 1:
[17:23] Yeah, we almost think that love is good enough when you're having a baby because it's a by-product of your love. But the project is still a project.

Speaker 2:
[17:31] And love is so important. It is such an important thing. But the project is still, things still have to happen in the project.

Speaker 1:
[17:39] Yeah, absolutely. I was going to ask you, you mentioned this a bit earlier. What are the key differences between trying to get pregnant in your 20s and in your 30s? And what should people be considering both ways?

Speaker 2:
[17:51] So, our fertility is very high when we're in our late teens, which is not a convenient time for many people to have kids. And then it slowly declines, slowly through the 20s, maybe getting a little faster through the 30s, and eventually falling off towards menopause. So I think one thing for people to understand is just, you know, this is a real factor in fertility. So there are plenty of opportunities to extend the life of fertility. IVF is very effective. Egg freezing can be an interesting option, but the reality is that it is hard to get pregnant when you're older than when you're younger, and that is something that I think people should know and at least understand that there is some trade-off. There is not a possible, but it is harder. And then you have to trade that off with the fact that you may or may not be ready to have a kid when you're 20. You may not have the partner you want. You may not be the right time. And so I think just being realistic about the existence of those trade-offs is kind of all you can do in terms of making decisions. Is the other piece I would often remind people is that your kid doesn't go away after like the first six months to a year. And so there is a little bit, sometimes I'll sort of hear people be like, well, this year is a really good, like this is a good year for me because like it's a down year at work. And it's like, well, after this year, like it's still going to be around. And so I think just sort of understanding that your life is going to, no matter when this happens, aspects of other parts of your life are going to change and evolve. As your kids get older, they're going to get easier, but also in other ways harder. And this is going to be part of your life forever. And so I would almost never tell people like, like find the best year. It's like, you need the best 18 years. It's like if you have a good solid 18 years, possibly more.

Speaker 1:
[19:36] Yeah, I have a mentor that used to tell me, when you have kids, you've got to write off. He used to say, and he's raised three kids and they're all adults now and has a great relationship with them. And he was like, Jay, just write off seven years of your life per kid. Like that was his advice. And I was like, yeah, that's interesting. I don't have kids, but that same point, as in like it wasn't just a one year thing or a two year thing. But I appreciate what you're saying because I think, and this isn't just about kids, it applies to so many things, but to parenting as well. I think the question we often ask as humans is, is this the right time? And it's almost like the better question is, do we know how this is going to change our life?

Speaker 2:
[20:15] Right.

Speaker 1:
[20:15] Right. Do we know how to adapt? Do we know how to build the environment for the group project? Like, do we know what that's going to require? Is more of an important question than is this the right time? Because time is kind of undefined as to what it's valuable for.

Speaker 2:
[20:28] Yeah. And I think it's very, very hard to ask, is this the right time? And be confident about that over the period that we're talking about, you know? It's just like, you just can't know. And so I think it is really much more, as you say, about kind of crafting. Like, is this, how can we make this setting work for this project that we are embarking on?

Speaker 1:
[21:06] One of my favorite things about what you do is using data to bust myths, and also bust these things that we get stressed about and overwhelm us. So what we created for you was a debunking myths game for pregnancy and childcare. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read a bunch of myths, cliches, things that we've all heard, and then you can give us the data driven answer and the insight behind it. So the first one is, it's okay to drink one glass of wine when you're pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[21:32] Yes, especially in the later trimesters. I mean, if you look at the data, it's very clear that drinking a lot of alcohol is bad and binge drinking at any time of pregnancy is very dangerous. But if you look at the data that looks at occasional drinking during pregnancy, it just doesn't show those kind of effects. And we actually do have a lot of data on this because in many places outside the US, this kind of alcohol consumption is much more common, and we have reasonably good approaches to figuring out causality there. And so that doesn't mean everyone is going to choose to do this, but I think that it is something that looking at the evidence, many people are comfortable with the occasional drink.

Speaker 1:
[22:13] Got it. Okay. I was not expecting that. I didn't know that. Next one, pregnant women shouldn't drink coffee.

Speaker 2:
[22:20] That is a myth. That is a myth. So there is some discussion about links between caffeine in the first trimester and miscarriage. It turns out that those links don't show up pretty much at all until about four to six cups of coffee. So if you are consuming a sort of typical person amount of coffee a day, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, that is there's no evidence of downsides there. But even when we look at people who consume a tremendous amount of coffee, there's data from Sweden where people are consuming eight cups of coffee a day. It's probably the case that any links with pregnancy loss are just driven by nausea. So people who are really nauseous don't drink coffee, and that's also correlated with lower risks of miscarriage. There's a lot of stuff going on in the data, but the bottom line is that some coffee is totally fine.

Speaker 1:
[23:12] Well, okay. You can't eat sushi while pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[23:16] Also not true.

Speaker 1:
[23:18] How do people come up with this stuff then?

Speaker 2:
[23:19] So sushi is, you can get foodborne illness from sushi. Uncooked fish is more dangerous than cooked fish is just like that. But that's always true. And it is not more true during pregnancies. This is something I sort of talk a lot about is thinking about, okay, you should generally think about trying to avoid the norovirus from your sushi. And you should be thinking about that when you're not pregnant and when you're pregnant. There's no particular risk to sushi during pregnancy.

Speaker 1:
[23:45] Okay. You can't get Botox while pregnant or breastfeeding.

Speaker 2:
[23:48] Okay, Botox. You know, this is the number one question people ask me.

Speaker 1:
[23:52] Really?

Speaker 2:
[23:52] No way. This is like the number one question, which is amazing.

Speaker 1:
[23:57] That's fascinating.

Speaker 2:
[23:58] I know. It's only started like in the last five, you know, I've been doing it for a good...

Speaker 1:
[24:02] What was it before that? Something really sensitive?

Speaker 2:
[24:03] It was much more like coffee. No, it's always lifestyle stuff, but like Botox, like really, people are really into Botox. Yeah, so you're not going to be able to find someone to get you to do your Botox when you are pregnant, although there is no evidence that it would be dangerous. It's just like no one's going to do that. During breastfeeding, it is fine. The Botox doesn't go into your milk, and you can do it if you want to have your Botox. I always tell people that your face looks great, you don't need Botox. People are like, oh my god, thank you. Then they're like, oh, but what about GLP-1s? That's their next question.

Speaker 1:
[24:33] Oh, and what's the take on that?

Speaker 2:
[24:35] So you shouldn't be on a GLP-1 when you're pregnant because that's not a time for weight loss. But during breastfeeding, generally, if you're sort of early on in breastfeeding and the supply is still being established, being on a GLP-1 can lower your breast milk supply. And so that is probably a reason to avoid it. But if you're later in breastfeeding, there's actually good evidence that they don't pass through to the milk. So if people want to go back on their GLP-1, it should be fine.

Speaker 1:
[25:03] I think this one's a big one.

Speaker 2:
[25:05] Okay. We have some milk here.

Speaker 1:
[25:07] So we have breast milk or formula. Does it make a difference?

Speaker 2:
[25:11] Both are great options. There are some small short-term benefits to breastfeeding, lower risk of gastrointestinal illness, some slightly lower risk of eczema. But a lot of these long-term things people are told, like breast milk makes your kid smarter or thinner, they can fly or whatever. That stuff is all correlation, not causation. So both of these options are very good ones.

Speaker 1:
[25:36] Are there any negatives for formula?

Speaker 2:
[25:38] I mean, I guess that you could sort of say, well, if breast milk lowers the risk of gastrointestinal infections, because formula raises it, depends what you're thinking about as your baseline. But I think in that sort of in that comparison, there are some of these things where breast milk shows up as positive, but I think it's just much, much, much smaller. The data shows it is much, much, much smaller than what a lot of people are told.

Speaker 1:
[26:00] Right. And the socioeconomic conversation is interesting there as well, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[26:04] Yeah. So one of the reasons why I think we are so frequently hearing, breast is best, breast milk has all these positive benefits, is because the people who are breastfeeding are very differently selected than the people who are not. So breastfeeding tends to be associated with higher maternal education, higher maternal income, other resources, and those things themselves are associated with higher performance on IQ tests. And so one of the things that's really interesting in something like the breast milk IQ linkage is you can see if you just compare kids who are breastfed to kids who are not, that you see big differences in IQ. If you control for you, just for some differences across the moms, those effects get a little smaller. If you adjust for more differences, if you adjust for say mom's IQ test, they get even smaller. And then if you compare siblings, so one kid's breastfed, one's not, but the same mom, you see no effect. And that sort of tells me that these initial effects we're seeing are really about differences across who's breastfeeding and who's not as opposed to the effect of the breast milk itself.

Speaker 1:
[27:11] And then I've spoken to moms as well who are like, also formula is really expensive too. So it's like a...

Speaker 2:
[27:16] Well, both things are very, I mean, both things are very expensive. People will tell you, you know, oh, breastfeeding is free. It's like, I'm sorry, does my time have no value? Like, actually these things are both expensive. Formula costs money, breastfeeding costs time. And I think it's not obvious that one of these is cheaper. I mean, I will say, like, you know, my mother, when I was writing all these books about pregnancy, I read both the set of pregnancy books that my grandmother had in like the, you know, 1940s and the ones that my mom had in like the early 1980s. And there's a, there's Dr. Spock. Spock was like the core to the 19, early 1980s. And in his book, from the time when I was born, he's got this discussion of breastfeeding. And this is a time in which people were sort of still coming back to breastfeeding after a long period of like, formula is the best. And he says something that's like, like breastfeeding, you might try breastfeeding. A lot of people like it. A lot of people think it's good, you know, enjoy it. And that's sort of how he puts it like, this is something that you should, you should try because it might end up working for you. And I think like that message, I think is really good. Like you should try this and we should help people figure out how to breastfeed, which is not that easy. And we should be supportive of it because it may work for a lot of people, which is different from saying we should be telling people that if you don't do this, your kid's going to suck, which is how a lot of people are hearing that messaging. And that is not a healthy message and is not true. And it is not helpful to anything.

Speaker 1:
[28:49] Yeah, it's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 2:
[28:51] It's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 1:
[28:51] And not taking into account what people do for work, how much time they have, how much income they have, like not taking into account all of that.

Speaker 2:
[28:58] Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons, so I had written Expecting Better, which is a book about pregnancy. And then I was not sure if I was going to write a second book. It's like a long time between the two books. I had to have a second kid and all kinds of other stuff. But I think the thing that ultimately pushed me over into writing Crib Sheet, which talks all about breastfeeding among many other things, is the emails that I kept getting from dads. And I remember this one very vividly that was like, my wife is killing herself over breastfeeding, and she's depressed, and she has to do this, and I really want to help her. I think she would listen to you. Can you tell me how important is this really? What does the data say? And I think that moment of someone being like, this is really harming my family. And I think that it would make people feel better to know what the data really says. That was kind of, I think that's just really important.

Speaker 1:
[29:51] Yeah, and I think we underestimate, and this applies to other areas of life as well, where stress about something you care about doesn't end up having a good impact on it. Or, for example, staying healthy is important, but stressing about staying healthy is kind of working counterintuitively against you as well. And it doesn't really help. And so similarly, if we, it's a hard thing with children, I can imagine, because you care and you, it's a different level of dedication and devotion to a child than it is even to your own health. But stress is always going to be reflected poorly as well. That's more likely to have a bad impact.

Speaker 2:
[30:27] Yeah, and I think we also have to recognize like some of what we're like, like the reason we're having kids and we're doing this is like because it's fun and because we want our family to be functioning in a nice way. And if somebody is very unhappy, if mom is very unhappy, that is negatively affecting how the family is functioning. And sometimes they'll say parents or people too, because I think we often forget that they are an important part of the family.

Speaker 1:
[30:50] What do you wish men knew about pregnancy that maybe they don't because they don't experience it and they don't really understand what's going on?

Speaker 2:
[30:58] I think it is very hard to really understand the experience of pregnancy. I mean, there's various things I tell men, you know, like, you have fun facts, like, you get a pee on, women pee on themselves a lot because there's a lot of pressure. There's like things like that, which I think it's good, just good to know the stuff that is going on. But I think much more important is sort of understanding, like, how can I engage when the baby arrives? Like that, you know, that's the time when we often get this sort of bifurcation of mom and dad, where the woman ends up doing more of the work and sort of just learning more, and then she knows more, and then he doesn't know, and I think there's like a real opportunity in that moment to kind of both lean in to learning how to do everything at the same time. I would worry much more about that than about kind of understanding all of the nuances of pregnancy, which are just, it's hard to explain.

Speaker 1:
[31:59] Yeah, got it. Yeah, no, I'm just asking for myself.

Speaker 2:
[32:01] Right, yes. Yeah, I mean, people would be like, oh, you know, you should understand how uncomfortable it is. Yeah, it's pretty, like, it's pretty uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:
[32:07] Not even that. I think it's what you're saying makes sense to me. It's almost like it's the preparation piece. I think it's you can never fully empathize with how painful it is, how difficult. Like you never, that isn't even it. But it's, yeah, how can men better prepare? For example, I had a lot of people that I know whose partners went through like postpartum, like afterwards, and a lot of men I knew just didn't understand what was going on. And they were just like, she's gone crazy. She's depressed all the time. You know, those kind of things. And it's almost like, I think we're learning a bit more now, I hope. And conversations like this are all to help raise awareness, to have the right conversations, to prepare for the project, to set up homes in a better way, to know what may come next. And so I think there's all of that where it's like, you don't know what that person's going through. And is pregnancy brain a real thing, for example? Like, is that real?

Speaker 2:
[32:58] Not really, no. I think it's just you're tired.

Speaker 1:
[33:01] It's just fatigue, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[33:02] Something to come back to, like the pre-pregnancy, something I would say is, you know, for people who are going through IVF, which can be very time consuming and a huge amount of work, that is a place where women will often take the vast brunt of this experience. And where actually there's way more that could be shared, because there's a lot of logistics, there's a lot of paying attention to when are we doing this and just keeping up to date. And that is a place where I think men could lean in far more. You know, you can't take the shots, you're not going to be having your eggs harvested, but fundamentally, there's a lot of logistics.

Speaker 1:
[33:39] One of these high-end diaper versus everyday diaper, affordable diaper, does it make a difference?

Speaker 2:
[33:46] I wish I could tell you the answer to this. My kids are 10 and 14, and we use that diaper. And it was fine. I will say people swear by the coterie diapers, but I haven't seen anything outside of the ANIC data. Those worked great. No complaints about the big brand diapers on my side.

Speaker 1:
[34:12] Amazing. Good to know. Talk to me about the difference between wooden toys and plastic toys.

Speaker 2:
[34:18] Plastic toys that make noise are super, super annoying. Your kid will love that and it will drive you out of your mind.

Speaker 1:
[34:24] I love it.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] You like it, but we had this. So to look at the data, people will say, your kid has to have wooden toys. Fundamentally, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that some toys are, toys can be developmentally appropriate. So some of these, making sure that your kid has some things to do that are matching their developmental phase is good. Stacking blocks are good for certain ages, sorting things are good for some stuff like that. But does it need to be made of wood or carved in some particular way? No, and kids do like the electronic stuff. Super annoying.

Speaker 1:
[35:04] I've definitely talked to parents who believe in Montessori techniques or all of that, which is all about wood and all, but there's no data behind that.

Speaker 2:
[35:12] No, there's no data on that. I think it's fine if that's not like, there's nothing wrong with that. I think some of this stuff in parenting is as much about shaping an experience that you feel good about, as it is about optimizing your kid in some way. So some of the people are like, that's something you enjoy. That's great. I'm going to be over here with my ladybug pull toy that's the same song.

Speaker 1:
[35:42] Yeah, it's so hard to think about it. My mom was extremely loving but extremely disciplined. So I had a very clear schedule after school, but a lot of love in my life. I look back on it and feel very grateful. I have a very disciplined life. But who's to say that that's was the thing? I have no idea. It's so hard to point to where some of those great qualities come from and the challenges come from.

Speaker 2:
[36:07] Also to separate out genetics. Yes. Your mom was very disciplined, you're very disciplined. Well, is that because she gave you discipline? Is that because you were always going to be a disciplined person? You could have grown up in any environment. We know genetics matters a lot and so does environment.

Speaker 1:
[36:21] Yeah. Okay, back to the myths.

Speaker 2:
[36:23] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[36:23] Breastfeeding will help you lose all the weight quickly.

Speaker 2:
[36:26] No. Sorry, it will not. I think the data shows that breastfeeding women lose an average over the first year, like 1.5 more pounds. So no, because you eat more, you breastfeed, it gets calories, and then you consume more calories just like anything else.

Speaker 1:
[36:43] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[36:44] It's not way less.

Speaker 1:
[36:44] There's no magic pill for that either.

Speaker 2:
[36:46] There is a magic pill. It's called ozepiphyllum.

Speaker 1:
[36:48] Oh, you have, right, right. It's not that. Yeah. You can't dye your hair while pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[36:53] That is a myth. There was some discussion of hairdressers having some, but it turned out there's really no data on that. Hair dye is fine.

Speaker 1:
[37:02] Okay. You can't sleep on your back while you're pregnant.

Speaker 2:
[37:05] This is also a myth. So people for a long time were told not to sleep on their back because of concerns about compressing a vein. And it is true that that can happen, but it turns out if that's happening to you, like you'll be uncomfortable and you will move. And when we got better data to look at some of the things people were concerned about, the risk of stillbirth, actually turns out sleep position has nothing to do with that. So if you should sleep in, it's very hard to sleep when you're pregnant. And if you are comfortable on your back, you should try, eventually that is likely to become uncomfortable.

Speaker 1:
[37:39] Got it. You can control whether or not you're going to have a boy or a girl.

Speaker 2:
[37:43] You cannot control this. Outside of like, if you have embryos, you can implant embryos of particular sex. But a lot of people have this idea that like, male sperm swims fast and doesn't live as long. And so if you have sex close to ovul... No, just no, that doesn't work.

Speaker 1:
[38:00] Natural birth is better.

Speaker 2:
[38:02] I hate the phrase natural birth. But it is not better. There is epidurals are very... And different kinds of pain relief are very safe and effective. And there's no better there.

Speaker 1:
[38:16] Taking Tylenol during pregnancy is not safe.

Speaker 2:
[38:19] That is a myth. There is... Many people heard the president and RFK say that Tylenol causes autism. But when you look at the best data on this, we do not see that link.

Speaker 1:
[38:29] Okay. You can't use retinol during pregnancy.

Speaker 2:
[38:33] So, you cannot use accutane during pregnancy. So, the sort of oral form of vitamin A is linked. Accutane is one of the small number of things that are very, very clearly linked to very extreme birth defects.

Speaker 1:
[38:47] Like what?

Speaker 2:
[38:48] I think it's missing limbs, a lot of sober... I mean, they... So, actually, the restrictions on pregnancy, if you are on accutane, you have to be on multiple kinds of birth control. There's like... This is like a very... It's a category X, which means like you cannot have that in pregnancy. Retinol is a form of vitamin A, and so there's... People will sort of say, okay, well, is this the same here? But it turns out the absorption through your skin is so, so, so, so, so, so much less than taking something in an oral form. And so most people will say like out of an abundance of caution, don't take this, but there's nothing in the data that would suggest it's risky. And a lot of people use retinol throughout pregnancy sometimes by accident. We don't see much of a negative effect. So I always tell people like, you're fine to quit this. But if you were taking, if you were using this early in pregnancy, you shouldn't freak out.

Speaker 1:
[39:38] Yeah. Going back to the Tylenol example and what you said earlier, it's so hard, some data is so hard to trust when you said like, you were like, you know, the big drug companies, for example, are funding a lot of the research. So it's like who would almost go against Tylenol, for example, and that may not be the best one to pick on, but I'm just looking at it from that perspective of that's one, that's like, is it just because the drug companies would do the research and then who else would pay for research against that?

Speaker 2:
[40:05] Yeah. So I think in the case of something like, people talk a lot about these issues of funding conflicts. In the case of something like Tylenol, most of the data we have on this is not from, Tylenol is a generic drug that the company that makes Tylenol is not doing these kind of trials. These are studies done on very large data sets that are collected by the Danish government on everybody in Denmark, and they have whether they took Tylenol and then things about their kids, and they follow them over time. So this is all large scale government funded databases. When we look at drugs in general, yeah, a lot of the studies of drugs are run by pharmaceutical companies, but in a very heavily regulated way. The pharma company doesn't just get to decide what to do, whatever. They have to do a study to get their drug approved that is itself approved by the FDA. So those conflicts are more complicated than many people think.

Speaker 1:
[41:04] Got it. Understood. You should not do screen time before age two.

Speaker 2:
[41:10] Okay. Screen time is perhaps the best example of correlation is not causation in parenting. And so people, you send me these studies that say, screen time before the age of one is linked with all of these terrible outcomes. Look at the study and you'll have one group of kids are watching more than four hours of screens a day before the age of one, and then another group that never watches screens before the age of one, and then they compare them later. The thing I always want to ask people is like, imagine those two households. Do you think there's anything else different other than the screen exposure? Of course, those are really different households. There's many things that are different. It turns out you can see some of those in the data, but there are just all pieces of the differences that we're not going to be able to see in the data and it is not surprising that we would find different outcomes for those kids. But that's just a correlation, is not a causal link. It left in a place with screens where people have to make a choice about how much to expose their kids to screens at different ages without very good data. So all the data we have is very crummy, but it is a set of choices you have to make. I don't think there's anything we would see in the data would suggest your kid watching a half an hour of Ms. Rachel few times a week would be problematic. It's very difficult to imagine how that could be bad. Actually, what's interesting is the AAP has recently dialed back their screen time restrictions to a set of guidelines that more or less say, just kind of think about it a bit more, like give it some thought. I think this is not a terrible piece of advice that you should think about where screens fit in your day. If your kid's watching eight hours of screens, they're not doing other things that they should be doing. If they're watching a half an hour of screens so you can get dinner ready, so you guys can all sit down together, that's probably a good thing. It's ultimately about making a plan that works for your family for when these screens will fit into your day, as opposed to saying like no screens, all screens, which isn't very helpful.

Speaker 1:
[43:14] Yeah. Is there any data to suggest that a mother's anxiety affects the child when pregnant?

Speaker 2:
[43:20] Not anything that you would think of as good. There's a little bit of evidence that very, very, very stressful events during pregnancy. We're talking here not like this was a bad week at work, but like your spouse died. That can show up in some small like long-term effects on kids. But general anxiety stress during pregnancy, not so much. Very hard to study that because of course, maternal anxiety and child anxiety are linked, but probably for both genetic and other environmental reasons having nothing to do with pregnancy.

Speaker 1:
[44:08] One of the questions that we got when we announced that you'd be coming on the show, and we're trying to get questions in from our audience was, how do you deal with mom guilt? Because that seems to be such a widely held challenge that everyone feels guilty, anxious, stressed, that they're doing it wrong, and everything they see online makes them feel like they're doing it wrong. And even the myths we just covered would make you feel like you're doing it wrong.

Speaker 2:
[44:31] Yeah, so I think there's the biggest problem for a lot of people is you make a choice, you do something, and then someone is like, why would you make that choice? And then you feel like crap. I mean, that's like a very, that happens all the time.

Speaker 1:
[44:44] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[44:45] I think our best defense against that is to make our choices thoughtfully. Is to say, I thought about whether, you know, breastfeeding was right for me or whether sleep training was right for me or whatever is your, like, topic of choice. Like, sit down, actually make those decisions deliberately. Like, these are important decisions. They're going to shape your life. They're going to shape, even if they don't matter for your kid, they're going to shape how your life is, what your experience is like. You should make them deliberately and decide what's the right choice for you. And then recognize that that can't be the right choice for everyone else, but that you thought about this choice. I think if we kind of come into these conversations feeling like, I know that I made the right choice for me, and I thought about it, and this was the right choice, and I could never be sure if it was ultimately the right choice, but it was the right choice, ex ante. I think that's a little bit protective. I think people could spend less time online. That would probably be helpful for some of this. But I mean, it's very, mom guilt is a topic that I experience. And I think some of it is kind of just trying to recognize you're doing a good job some of the time.

Speaker 1:
[45:51] Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. And it's, again, I can only reflect on it in other areas of life, but it's almost like it's the human trait of needing our choices to be validated, and wanting other people to agree with our way of doing and thinking.

Speaker 2:
[46:08] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[46:08] And also how uncomfortable it is when everyone does tell you you're doing something wrong because they did it another way. So even if you're very happy with your choice, you get triggered by someone else who says, well, my kids got this IQ level at this age and whatever. And all of a sudden you're triggered by it, or someone actually comes to you and says, can't believe you did that. Like, you know, my kids are doing great and I never did that. And so I think there's partly us crowdsourcing and outsourcing and being overexposed to lots of other people and how they do it. Then you have some frustrating people in your life who are telling you how to do it, to be honest. And then there's just that coming back to what you kind of said, which I really appreciate, which is know why you're making the choices you make and be really clear about it in your group project again and have some conviction and confidence that based on your set of beliefs, backgrounds, socioeconomic status, you're making the best decisions you can.

Speaker 2:
[47:00] Yeah. And I think that the point of recognizing that like your best decisions may not be other people's best decisions is so crucial because I think in these moments, we are, we want our decisions to be right and we sort of want them to be so right that they're right for everyone else and so when you make a different choice for me, it's like hard for me not to read that as like you think my choice is bad.

Speaker 1:
[47:22] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[47:22] Or like, well, you know.

Speaker 1:
[47:23] Or I failed.

Speaker 2:
[47:24] Or I failed. As opposed to just being like, yeah, this person had a different set of constraints and they made a different choice and different set of preferences, different set of constraints and like both choices could be right. We could adopt that approach a bit more. Some of this discourse would be like a little less.

Speaker 1:
[47:43] What is the day to say about raising confident kids?

Speaker 2:
[47:46] Not too much. It's really hard to look at that kind of data. We have pieces of data about raising kids who are willing to take risks. So there's a literature about grit and how to develop grit in kids. And some of this is things like the growth mindset stuff, right? Like you sort of want your kid to understand that sometimes things are hard and you have to push, like you can get better at something just because you are not good at it now doesn't mean you couldn't eventually be good at. And I think that's kind of part of this. It's not exactly the same as confidence, but it's something people are often trying to develop. What I will say is I think people take pieces of advice like that, which are very good and are based on data that like we shouldn't discourage kids from having a growth mindset. And they kind of get, it ends up getting distilled into advice that is ridiculous. Right? So people end up, we go from, you know, a growth mindset is good, so it's good for kids to understand that like, it's the values and the effort and it's, you know, worth trying and da da da. And they get to parents as never tell your kid good job.

Speaker 1:
[48:59] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[49:00] And it's like, well, what do you mean? Like, where's the, it's like, there's no evidence that telling your kid good job is, you know, is, is a problem. We could develop a growth mindset while occasionally saying, good job, you know. So you have these conversations for a while. We're having these conversations. My kids would come home. The kids are a bit older and they would come home. They'd be like, you know, this is a score I got on this test. And we were reacting, being like, you know, well, how do you feel about that? And finally, my daughter was like, stop saying that. Like, that's super annoying.

Speaker 1:
[49:31] That's so funny.

Speaker 2:
[49:31] And it was like, OK, fine. You know, where it's like, it's OK to say, good job.

Speaker 1:
[49:36] Yeah, that's so funny. That's amazing.

Speaker 2:
[49:38] I think there's just like, there are many things like this where it gets, parents are sort of looking so hard for these, like, here's something you can just do, like super concrete, super concrete piece of advice. And we distill things that are very complicated into something very simple, which is often wrong.

Speaker 1:
[49:54] Well, I think it's hard because it goes back to the point I asked you earlier about when I was talking about my mom and my qualities and things like that. And I was like, we almost, our mind for some reason likes to think that there's a point-to-point connection of every action, choice, and decision that impacts something. So if a kid is struggling at school, we're like, oh, it's because I did this. Or if they struggle later in life in a relationship, it's like, oh, because me and your dad did this, right? We make connections feel very linear, even though they feel extremely cyclical, random, disconnected, unconnected, and complicated, quite frankly. It's just too complicated for any of us to know why or how that ended up happening.

Speaker 2:
[50:37] Absolutely. I think we have somehow this kind of idea has translated, I think, for a lot of people into feeling almost that every moment with your child is an opportunity to mess them up forever. So there was an episode of maybe a year ago where people were very worried about hurrying. We got this idea of hurried child syndrome.

Speaker 1:
[51:01] I missed it.

Speaker 2:
[51:02] You did. That's so lucky for you. So there was all of a sudden all this stuff on social media about hurried child syndrome, which was conveyed to people as if you're hurrying your child out the door in the morning and being like, get your shoes on, we have to go, that that's going to lead them to have terrible problems with anxiety later. Again, this name, if people were like, oh my gosh. But then for parents, they were like, oh my God, but sometimes they do need them to get their shoes. Because we have to go to school, like what am I doing? But again, had this feeling of every moment, every morning when you get out of the house is an opportunity to screw it all up. You could be doing everything perfectly and then there's that one day where you're like, get your shoes on and that's it. Then later when they're an unsuccessful failure adult, it's because of that time that you said the thing about the shoes. That is how it feels. I think it's ridiculous when you put it like that, but I think it is how people are feeling. In the end, actually, Hurry Child Syndrome is a totally different thing, completely not at all like this.

Speaker 1:
[52:02] What is it actually?

Speaker 2:
[52:04] It's an idea coined by some guys in the 1970s that if we push kids to do too much pre-professional sports and just grow up too quickly, that they miss out on some of the fun of childhood. Actually, a very interesting set of issues related to some of the stuff John Hyde has talked about, interesting set of issues to discuss completely unrelated to getting your shoes on. There's no evidence that pushing your kid out the door. It was just an example of something that got into the zeitgeist, but is the stuff parents are hearing every day. If we could just dial down a little bit, you'd be like, hey, there are some ways you could mess up your kid, but they're much bigger than these kind of tiny daily choices that you're making.

Speaker 1:
[52:49] Yeah, definitely. And again, I often think about growing up because that's my only experience of parenting and that sense of being parented. And it's like both my parents worked. I don't think I got a lot of time in the weekdays with my parents, although we did on the weekends. But the great parts of the parenting were not, I never felt left alone or abandoned when I was at daycare or picked up, and then my mom went back out to work. And if I ever felt lonely, I would just go to work with her in the evenings and lie by her foot and fall asleep while she did work, and then we'd come home again. And so it's like there was not a long-term, you know, and again, I'm not saying that my experience is everyone's experience. All I can say is that, yeah, it's just that it isn't as causal as we believe it is.

Speaker 2:
[53:33] People often say, you know, they're like, the first three years is really important. That's true. Like it's true. But when we sort of look at that, like what does that mean in the population? Well, what it means is that it's really important for kids to have, you know, a safe place to sleep, enough to eat, you know, someone who loves them, maybe some books, like some pretty basic things, which unfortunately, at least in America, a lot of kids actually don't have that. That's something we could work on. But many of the things that, at least the kinds of parents I talked to or worried about, are kind of like, you're already doing like 95 percent, and now you're telling me like you're spending all your time obsessing about, like, you know, the 0.3 percent over here, like, you're good.

Speaker 1:
[54:15] What's your take on that coming from people's own unhealed stress, pressure, trauma, childhood? Like, how much of that is coming from their own? Is there any data to suggest that we?

Speaker 2:
[54:25] I don't think there's a lot of data to suggest that. I actually have always read this as something completely different, which is it's coming out of the demographic shift and when people are having kids. So, it used to be you had kids, you kind of graduated from college, whatever, maybe you didn't go to college, and then you had some kids in your 20s. We're now in a demographic space where a lot of people have thought about, like, okay, I'm going to get into work or I'm going to get into college, I want to get into college, I'm going to go to college, I'm going to get the job I want, I'm going to get them, I'm going to make partner, I'm going to go to graduate. I've sort of been climbing a ladder of like personal and professional things, and I've gotten to this point and it's like, okay, like all of these things, I put a lot of effort in and I got it, and now I'm going to have a kid, and I'm going to put a lot of effort in to win, right? Like sort of the children become the thing you're going to win next, and I think that generates an enormous amount of pressure, because if you think of your child as a thing to achieve, it's difficult, because it's not like getting into college. It's not like if you work harder, like it goes better, because it goes much worse. But I think that's part of it, is this feeling of kind of like, this is something that I could win, much more so than some of this unhealed. I mean, that's hard to know. I'm sure people do have unhealed traumas, but I would guess the demographic shifting is more.

Speaker 1:
[55:48] Yeah, it's the hard toggle between saying it is a group project, but it isn't, because it's what you said earlier. I agree with you, there has to be a business plan, almost, but then it's not a business in that.

Speaker 2:
[56:00] Yeah, there's a limit to what you can control. There are things you can do to set up to make the experience of doing this easier, but that is different from being able to control the outcome. And I think that's sort of the core distinction.

Speaker 1:
[56:14] Wanted to talk about one of the other big debates around sleep training. Yes. This is probably what your day is filled with, because there is no parent who's not struggling with sleep in some way, shape, or form. Is there an ideal way to sleep train? One size fits all model.

Speaker 2:
[56:29] Definitely not. I think so. So first of all, there are, oh, yeah, there is definitely not a good one size fits all. Sleep training is not going to be the right choice for many parents. I think the, but it is going to be the right choice for some parents. So when we talk about sleep training, one thing people worry about is, you know, is this going to cause long-term terrible attachment problems for my kid? And let me back up and say, like, what do we mean by sleep training?

Speaker 1:
[56:55] Yes, please. Yeah, can you define sleep training?

Speaker 2:
[56:57] When we talk about sleep training, usually people mean some form of encouraging independent sleep, which usually involves some crying. There's a wide range of things. So it ranges from kind of the sort of fervor extinction method where you kind of do a nice bedtime routine, put your kid in the bed, close the door and decide we're not going to come back for some amount of time, and the kid will often cry for a long time. Usually, it's a few nights of that and then they sleep. And then there's versions of this where you're sitting in the room with them, where you're coming in. So there's a lot of variations, but it almost always is in the service of trying to encourage a kid to fall asleep independently and to sort of connect sleep cycles. So when we sleep, all people, including kids, we wake up about every 90 minutes between sleep cycles. And so good quality sleep for kids and for their parents means sort of the kids need to connect the sleep cycles in some way. And so then they are sleeping through the night. When you say maybe sleeping through the night, you don't mean that they're literally asleep the entire time. You mean that they are going back to sleep on their own after they wake up. Okay, so sleep training usually involves some kind of crying. Some of these people worry that this will cause long-term attachments. We have a lot of data on this that suggests that that's not true, including some randomized data, some community-based data. There's a lot of evidence that sleep training is not damaging to children. And also a fair amount of evidence that it improves sleep for parents and that it sort of causes improved sleeps for kids in the sense of allowing them to connect these sleep cycles. Having said all that, I think that means for me, based on the data, that this should be in people's toolbox. That when you think about, like, what am I going to do about the fact that we need to sleep, my kid needs to sleep, sleep is really important, we have to decide, this should be one of the things in the toolbox. It's not going to be the thing every parent pulls out of their toolbox. Often find this a little bit of a hard conversation that people kind of end up in sort of doing one of two things. Like, one of two things is sustainable. One is some kind of sleep training where the kid's going to sleep independently and they're going to sleep for extended periods of time, and the other is co-sleeping. These can work really well for different families. The thing that actually is very hard is, like, I'm not sleeping in the room with my kid, but they're waking up every 90 minutes and I have to go put them back to sleep. That's really unsustainable for almost every family. They tend to find that people kind of come into one of these two options, but that really means that you want to ask yourself, like, where are we trying to go? Like, are we hoping to all be sleeping together in the bed, which can work for a lot of people, or are we hoping to be sleeping independently, and from there to kind of back out, you know, how are we going to get there?

Speaker 1:
[59:43] Is there a right age to start sleep training if that's the choice you make?

Speaker 2:
[59:45] Probably not. So not before four or five months. And at that point, you are not looking for your kid to sleep all the way through the night. So many of these sort of sleep training approaches, there are kind of about learning some independent sleep, then sort of putting together a schedule where you think, okay, at some point they will need to eat in the middle of the night, and then as they get older and they need to eat less, they will kind of connect more of those things and eventually have a longer sleep.

Speaker 1:
[60:13] Right, got it. Are there any, I mean, I guess it's just painful for a parent to go to sleep thinking that their child is crying and takes a second to, you know.

Speaker 2:
[60:22] Yeah, I think, so one of the things we see in the data is that sleep training doesn't work well if you are not ready to do it. So the people who are ambivalent about this, who think like, I'm not comfortable with this, I don't, this doesn't feel right to me, this isn't going to work so well because like, you're not, you're not, consistency is important. And it's just like, that's not going to work as well for that group. So I think a lot of it is about being, sort of deciding that this is something that is safe, something that is effective, something that's going to work for a family and deliver at the other side of it, which is often, you know, just a few days, kind of going to deliver a better environment for, for your family.

Speaker 1:
[60:58] Yeah. Anything else on sleep training that we've missed, that we haven't talked about things that you get asked the most about it?

Speaker 2:
[61:03] So I think one thing that people really struggle with is actually sleep training for little kids is, it can be a hard, for like babies, it can be like a hard decision. But like, it's not that hard to implement, like if you're committed to doing, it's not that hard to implement because your kid's in a crib and they can't move. I think it becomes really hard is when people have toddlers and their kids are coming out of the room and we sort of, there's often another period where people are spending a lot of time, a lot of complicated bedtime stuff. And that's actually a very different problem. It's not, it's more of a kind of a need for behavioral modification than it is a sort of sleep training. And so there, I think the main point for many people is just you've got to decide where you're trying to go and then like decide a moment that you're going to consistently implement it. Kids tend to respond really well to consistency.

Speaker 1:
[61:51] Where did the theory or belief come from that if kids are left crying that they'll end up feeling abandoned? Where did that come from?

Speaker 2:
[61:58] So, it's based on psychology of attachment theory, a lot of which was developed out of observations of kids who had very, very problematic attachment childhood. So, one place we saw this was in Romanian orphanages. So, there was a period of time in Romania in which there were a lot of children who were unwanted and they ended up in these orphanages where they were basically just left alone with very, very minimal care. There was a lot of abuse. When researchers came to observe these kids, they found the babies really didn't cry because they had learned nobody would come. Then these kids had problems for very long periods of time. The difference between a baby that is left alone for days at a time with not enough food, and sexual and physical abuse, and also the difference between that and crying for even a pretty long period of time for a few nights in the context of an otherwise loving and stable and happy household, those are really different things and I think that they know that, but there's a porting across this, which I just don't think is appropriate, but that's where it comes from.

Speaker 1:
[63:16] Yeah. Got it. I didn't know that. That's fascinating.

Speaker 2:
[63:18] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[63:19] Yeah. It's incredible what connections we make when they're not really that connected.

Speaker 2:
[63:23] Yeah. I mean, I think this space is a tough one because it is hard to hear your kid cry and it's hard to think about sleep training for a lot of people. It is also credibly helpful for many families, and I think that's worth noting.

Speaker 1:
[63:43] Yeah. Are there any data-driven techniques to help babies stop crying quickly?

Speaker 2:
[63:48] Just consistently implement this multiple over time. I think there's no like this trick. I mean, it doesn't work for every baby, but it really does work on average.

Speaker 1:
[64:16] I wanted to revisit screentime from the point of view of like, as kids are growing up and not looking at, you could advise whether it's valuable to look at specific ages or not, but is there any connection now? I know earlier you said, well, it was really not about causality or causation, it was just the fact that it's just a different socioeconomic condition and different opportunities and different education level of parents and availability of funds and resources and time and energy and everything else. If that's all it is, is there any data to suggest it matters on any level?

Speaker 2:
[64:49] Yeah. The answer is probably yes. This is a space where data is really new. If you wanted to ask, what's the impact of being exposed to an iPad at the age of two on high school graduation or college graduation? We don't know because the kids who are exposed at the age of two haven't graduated yet. We're really in a data poor environment. When we look at younger kids, a lot of the questions we would ask are about displacement of other activities. As kids do more and more of these, is it displacing things that they should be doing that has active positive value? Anytime with their family, going outside, what are we replacing is the question I would ask. As opposed to thinking about the screens per se as good or bad, they are an activity which must be displacing something else. If they are displacing sleep, for example, that's really bad. We know kids don't sleep enough and they need a lot of sleep. There's a second question as kids get older about the social media, the social media part of screens, where again, we're in a very data poor environment, but I think there's reasonable people have reasonable concerns about girls in particular and the kinds of exposures that we get. Then you're layering on top of this, like, a whole other AI thing which I got, that's new. And so we just, there's a lot of choices that parents are having to make that are hard because we have no context for them. And also our kids are much better at screens than we are. So a lot of the tools people would put, you know, people add this tool to my kid's iPad to do this and that. It's like, are you kidding? Are you kidding me? You know, it's like your kid's school is putting up these restrictions. Like, you know, they can't play this game and they're like, oh, I just went to the website that's like called like my school blocked, blah, blah, blah. And that's where you get the games. Totally tilting and windmills on this on this stuff, given the demographic, given the generational shifts.

Speaker 1:
[67:00] Yeah, I'm at least a supporter of most of all of Jonathan Hyde's considerations around that as an older age. Like, I just feel like there's no need to be on social media before a certain age. Yeah, like there's no need for schools to have phones. Like I just don't, you know, we all went to schools without phones.

Speaker 2:
[67:18] And yes, I think there's a few of these things which are like these things all have like little sort of different pieces. I think like phones in schools, like that's distracting. You don't need a distracting activity. No need for that. I think the social media stuff, I also agree, like there should be some sort of thought about age is maybe going to be different for different kids. There should also be a fair amount of, of kind of scaffolding by parents. Once your kid gets these social media tools, like you don't, you know, it's like a car, right? You don't just hand them the keys and say, enjoy, you like teach them. And I think this is kind of like a car. Like you gotta be willing to take the keys away. You gotta be willing to like help them learn, you know, what's the reasonable way to interact with this. I will say, I think that the relative to the kids who are now like 18, 19, the kids who are now 13, 14, at least in some cases, I think are actually much less into this. There was sort of a period of time when everyone had Instagram when they were 12. And this is actually dialed down a bit.

Speaker 1:
[68:13] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[68:14] Which maybe is just reflecting my kid's school, but I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[68:19] Yeah, it's different between just having screen time and then being on social media and being exposed to other people's lives and messaging. And I think they're two totally different conversations. And I like the way you just said it, that if you look to getting a phone like getting a car, and if we were able to start helping society think that way, then it becomes a point of, I remember wanting a car and being excited, nervous that I had to pass a test, preparing for the test, all the levels that you go through to get there, and then you have your first accident, and that's scary.

Speaker 2:
[68:51] You get your first ticket.

Speaker 1:
[68:52] Yeah, you get your first ticket. But it feels like a whole journey to get it, rather than now a phone is almost like this expected piece of life that you have no idea what it's exposing you to or your kids to. And it's a tough conversation with parents. I love the scaffolding idea, but I do think that it's hard when it's like, oh, well, your friends' parents, I gave them a phone at 12, but I'm waiting to you till 14. And they're like, but wait a minute, everyone at school had one at 10. And whereas if there's just rules that are not parents set.

Speaker 2:
[69:22] Yes, I think parents could use help on this for sure. And ultimately, there's no substitute for knowing your kid on these things, and every kid is going to be different, and is going to be differentially affected by these things, and need different things, which is part of what makes parenting so difficult.

Speaker 1:
[69:42] Yeah, absolutely. It's tough. Couple more things I wanted to talk to you about. This one was about vaccines. Because I know there's a lot of conversation about that. So vaccines and CDC guidelines change over time, of course. How would you consider parents think about navigating that?

Speaker 2:
[69:59] I think parents should vaccinate their children on the whole. I mean, I think that the AAP has a set of guidelines for many years. The AAP, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the CDC, had the same vaccine guidelines. And they are the sort of primary childhood vaccine series have been enforced for decades and have been really safe and effective, and et cetera, et cetera. And over the past year, with the current administration, we have dialed way back the number of vaccines that the CDC has recommended. I think there's a fair amount of holdover from COVID, where people were uncomfortable with some of the way that the COVID vaccine was pushed on people. And I think some of that is actually fair. Probably we do not currently need all healthy children to get a COVID booster. Europe doesn't do that. I mean, I think that's a perfectly reasonable position. What is not a reasonable position is people shouldn't get the measles vaccine. And so I think for parents, it's kind of thinking about what is the... If you want to think about what the evidence says about these vaccines, these vaccines are really good at preventing disease, and they are really safe and have been in use for decades. So I find the current vaccine conversation really difficult to engage with because it feels like, what are you kidding me, like kids are going to die of the measles? Like kids are going to die of the measles, two kids died of the measles last year, more kids are going to die of the measles this year. In a single week in January, 2026, there were more measles cases in the US than all but a small handful of years over the past two decades.

Speaker 1:
[71:37] Because people chose not to.

Speaker 2:
[71:39] Yeah. So if you look at the graph, basically we had like 260 cases of measles in a week. In almost all full years in the past two decades, we had like far fewer than that. So because people stopped vaccinating and then measles is super, super contagious. And so if you get a small amount of outbreaks and the outbreak grows and we had a lot of cases, and I just think that means kids are going to die of measles, who didn't need to die of measles and that just feels terrible.

Speaker 1:
[72:06] Yeah. Do you think kids are being over medicated in general?

Speaker 2:
[72:09] I mean, I think it's a totally different question. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I think there's a lot of, probably to some extent. I think if we look at the data on something like ADHD and we look at what's happened to those kinds of prescriptions over time, we've gone up a lot and we do see some evidence that those are increasing, those are higher for, say, kids who are younger when they are first in kindergarten. I think that's reflecting our expectation of kids in schools, which is totally different than it once was and particularly, probably poorly suited, especially for boys. If we think, okay, we're going to bring a bunch of kids in who aren't that great at sitting still, and when they're not that great at sitting still, which is totally age-appropriate behavior, we're then going to give them something that makes them sit still. I think it's a good argument that we've been overusing that approach.

Speaker 1:
[73:05] Yeah, no, no, and totally two different...

Speaker 2:
[73:06] Yeah, but which is totally different than vaccines.

Speaker 1:
[73:08] Totally two different conversations, yeah. I think it's become hard. It's almost hard for... There's some people who never question it at all, and then there are, I think, some people who question it because there's a lack of trust, or there's, for example, like you see the overmedication, you see the rise, and then you go, wait a minute, there's so many updates in what's happening here, and is it really helping, and where's it, you know, so I think there's a lack of trust, there's curiosity, there's, you know, there's all sorts of versions of it on the spectrum of why we disagree or where they sit.

Speaker 2:
[73:37] Yeah, and I think the other, I mean, the other thing about vaccines is like we haven't done a great job of helping parents understand, you know, even like which vaccines are most important. I basically think everybody should get all of the vaccines on the schedule because they're all safe, but I'm curious whether we should be having more of the conversation of, okay, look, if you were only going to do, you know, if there's a real hesitancy for good reason to have a conversation that's like, look, if you were only going to do three, these are your three. And I see why we don't want to have that conversation because it implies that, you know, maybe there's some risk to these other things, which there are not. But it could encourage people to get some subset of the vaccines. It feels like such a complicated messaging, messaging play. You know, if we really think the most important thing is for people to get like the measles vaccine and the Tdap vaccine and the flu vaccine, like maybe we should be like pushing the rotavirus vaccine last, even though that is a very good vaccine. I don't know. This is very complicated. I wish people would just get all the vaccines.

Speaker 1:
[74:38] Got it. Understood. You have written, Emily, four books on parenting, I believe. If you had three messages for parents that you felt they really needed to hear, what would they be?

Speaker 2:
[74:50] One is that there are a lot of right ways to do it. I think that's probably the core message of my second book, which is, here are some data on stuff, but in almost every choice you're going to make, there are a lot of different good options, and you just got to find the one that works for you. I think that's one pretty core message. I think a second key insight in everything I write is that correlation is not causality, and you should be really, really sceptical of a lot of the evidence that people tell you, because a lot of it is correlation. I guess the third insight is I think people spend too little time thinking in advance about their plans and too much time in, therefore, in sort of reacting to things that happen, and we're very reluctant to put time in up front because we're busy. But there are many situations in parenting in which putting some time in up front, thinking about how you want to approach something is going to save you a lot of time and conflict later.

Speaker 1:
[75:57] I love all three of those, and that last one especially, I just think, we think, like I always hear the advice of, you're never ready to have kids, which I agree with, like that makes full sense. But at the same time, you're definitely not ready. If you never thought about it, like that, you know.

Speaker 2:
[76:14] Like you could be more ready.

Speaker 1:
[76:15] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[76:16] You could be more ready.

Speaker 1:
[76:17] Exactly, which applies to everything, right? It's just that mindset of, oh, you never know what it's going to be like. And it's like, you're right. Yeah, I definitely, like as somebody who doesn't have kids, I have no idea what it's going to be like to prepare. I fully hold my hands up. I lose, you know, I get it. But I can think, I can prepare, I can try. And I probably will still fail and make mistakes. And I think that's the problem. We think planning means perfection. As opposed to planning just means planning. And that's all it is. And it doesn't mean it's going to be perfectly executed. Absolutely. Emily, last two segments, we have a this or that.

Speaker 2:
[76:50] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[76:51] And then our final five, which we do with every guest on the show. So this or that parenting version, gentle parenting or helicopter parenting?

Speaker 2:
[76:59] I don't like either of these.

Speaker 1:
[77:01] Explain why.

Speaker 2:
[77:02] I mean, I think gentle parenting, as a lot of people have interpreted it, is kind of permissive parenting, is sort of like, I'm not going to put any boundaries. And I think that's really problematic.

Speaker 1:
[77:12] So what is good gentle parenting or what is the best?

Speaker 2:
[77:14] I think there's a good version of kind of punishment, parenting without rules and without consequences, which is much more about just setting boundaries. It ends up looking really similar to parenting with rules and consequences. But, you know, the kind of like saying what the boundary is, following through on the boundary, that's a very clear part of almost any evidence based parenting approach. But gentle parenting, as many people seem to interpret it, I think does not does not work. So I think I'm going to go with helicopter parenting, which is being over involved, which I also think can be quite problematic, but perhaps less.

Speaker 1:
[77:55] What is a proven approach to parenting?

Speaker 2:
[77:57] So I think that the best set of evidence based approaches we have to like behavior modification are things where you have a clear set of expectations, where when there's a behavioral issue, there's a clear set of expectations, consequences, and rewards. That's often what we see supported best in the data. So something like 123 Magic or one of these.

Speaker 1:
[78:22] What's 123 Magic?

Speaker 2:
[78:23] So 123 Magic is one of these evidence based parenting approaches, which is just a particular way to kind of scaffold. Like when somebody in your kid does something bad, you give them like three warnings and then there's a timeout. It's very effective.

Speaker 1:
[78:37] Right. Yeah. I mean, it seems to follow the common sense of what life looks like.

Speaker 2:
[78:41] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[78:42] Life has choices and actions, they have consequences, and then there's either, like that's kind of what-

Speaker 2:
[78:47] That's what it works as an adult.

Speaker 1:
[78:48] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. As an adult, that is life.

Speaker 2:
[78:51] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[78:52] Yeah. Got it. Natural remedies or medicated products?

Speaker 2:
[78:56] Generally, medicated products. I think that there's a lot that we have learned over time about, say, antibiotics, which are the reason that many people are not dead. I'm going to go with medicine, although there are certainly places where we overuse antibiotics and we are better off just not using them because people don't have a bacterial infection. But overall, medicated products.

Speaker 1:
[79:22] Strict schedule or flexibility?

Speaker 2:
[79:25] Can both work. Personally, my family has a very rigid schedule. One might say too rigid. Because of you. No, actually, I have much more because of, I mean, yes, it's a combination of me and my husband, but I think that he is even worse than I am. But that is what works for us. For us and our kids, we like to know what's expected on the weekends. We know what we're going to do. There are calendar invites. If we're going on a hike, my husband puts a calendar invite with the drive time in it because he's insane. But for us, that's really great. I think for other people, flexibility can totally work. This is one of the core things I think you need to figure out about your family, which is what version of this is going to make us feel confident and happy. There is not a right answer, but there probably is a right answer for you. If you're a person who just wants to wake up on Sunday morning and be like, let's find out whatever, you're going to be really annoyed when your spouse is like, why didn't you put the calendar invite in for the drive time? But if you're a person who really wants to have the calendar invite, it can be frustrating to be like, well, it's over the wind takes us. Well, how long will it take to get there?

Speaker 1:
[80:32] Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:
[80:34] I think you just got to find what works.

Speaker 1:
[80:36] Absolutely. Two under two or waiting?

Speaker 2:
[80:41] Two under two is tough. Again, I would say for me, I wanted to wait. I like the four-year age gap worked real well for me. One kid carry their backpack while the other kid is, you're carrying the other kid's hunter-gatherer birth spacing.

Speaker 1:
[80:56] Is that dated to that?

Speaker 2:
[80:58] This was the common hunter-gatherer birth spacing, I think we think, because one kid can walk on their own when you're carrying the other one.

Speaker 1:
[81:07] My sister and I have a four-and-a-half-year age gap.

Speaker 2:
[81:09] So great. But I think if you're a little older or there's some other reason why you want to get them in close, that is very tiring. It is very, very tiring to have two little babies at the same time. You need good scaffolding.

Speaker 1:
[81:26] Got it. Plastic bottle or glass bottles?

Speaker 2:
[81:29] People are so worried about microplastics. This is not an important source of microplastic exposure relative to the other sources of microplastic exposure. We don't know that much of my microplastics. That's like a whole other episode you could do with somebody else. I think people should avoid glass bottles because they shatter.

Speaker 1:
[81:45] That's it, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[81:46] Then glass will be everywhere.

Speaker 1:
[81:47] And hurt the kid.

Speaker 2:
[81:48] And hurt the kid or you.

Speaker 1:
[81:50] Yeah. Yeah. Timeouts or time-ins?

Speaker 2:
[81:53] I don't even know what a time-in is. I'm a fan of time-outs. I think time-outs work well. How does a good time-out work? The good time-out works when your kid knows that the time-out is the punishment. They know that we're going to have a set of like, they know they're at risk for the time-out, and they have an opportunity to fix their behavior. This is why something like accounting approach or warning approach is good, that you follow through on the time-out when you say that you're going to, when the time-out is appropriately timed for the age of the kid, shorter if they're younger, longer if they're older, and then when after the time-out, you don't discuss it anymore. It's not like there's no shaming, there's no, it's just like you're in a time-out, you're calm, you put them in the time-out, they have a chance to cool down, you have a chance to cool down, nobody is yelling. I think that can work extremely well. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[82:37] I was going to ask you, are there any more strategies like that in parenting once the kids are growing older, where that are you found extremely useful? You have a 10-year-old and a 14-year-old.

Speaker 2:
[82:47] Yes. When the kids were little, we found the time-outs to be a very helpful approach. I think in general, we found consistency is very good. I will say now a lot of my considerations are, how can I get my children to continue to speak with me? I have found that my very best approach with older kids is to be available. So I spent a lot of time after dinner when they're in their rooms doing homework or whatever, sitting in the den of our house, which is near their rooms, just sitting, I'm working on my computer, whatever. Then if they happen to want to come out and talk, I immediately close the computer and can talk to them. That just being there when your kids are ready to talk to you, I think, is a strategy that works pretty well. The only other strategy, really deeply seated strategy that we have is don't lie. Try not to lie to my kids. That's why they know about Santa Claus before everyone else. There was one time my son was like, Mom, is the tooth fairy real? I was like, do you want to know? He was pretty old. He was like, I was like, do you want to know the truth? He's like, yeah. I was like, no, it's not. He was like, I didn't think so because other fairies aren't real. I was like, yep, you got it.

Speaker 1:
[84:00] That's so funny.

Speaker 2:
[84:01] Now when he loses a tooth, he's just like, can you put money in my allowance?

Speaker 1:
[84:04] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[84:05] Absolutely.

Speaker 1:
[84:06] That's so funny. Even the fun white lies.

Speaker 2:
[84:12] It's interesting. I think the Santa thing comes up all the time. People are like, should I lie? I don't know. I think my husband is Jewish and he was just like, I'm going to tell our kids Santa is real.

Speaker 1:
[84:20] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[84:21] That's not for me.

Speaker 1:
[84:22] Yeah. Got it. Emily, this has been so useful. Thank you for busting all the myths. Thank you for providing all the data and being so open and honest about so much that we're still figuring it out and we're still researching and still trying to find good data to back. So we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. And so Emily, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best parenting advice you ever heard or received?

Speaker 2:
[84:47] Try not to think about it.

Speaker 1:
[84:49] Question number two, what is the worst parenting advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 2:
[84:53] Don't put mittens on your child because she'll never learn to use her hands.

Speaker 1:
[84:58] That's brilliant.

Speaker 2:
[84:59] It was my mom's advice. My mom was so great, but that was bad advice. That was bad advice.

Speaker 1:
[85:04] That's so funny. Did you ever follow that?

Speaker 2:
[85:07] No, it's ridiculous. I did look it up. I went so far as to research it.

Speaker 1:
[85:11] That's good.

Speaker 2:
[85:13] That's what it's like to have a baby.

Speaker 1:
[85:14] Question number three, something you used to believe was true about parenting, but now you disagree with?

Speaker 2:
[85:20] That if you do the same thing for two kids, you get the same outcome.

Speaker 1:
[85:25] Fascinating. You have to adapt.

Speaker 2:
[85:29] It's so easy to think you did a great job on the first one, and then, woof. And then they're just different kids, and you need different things.

Speaker 1:
[85:37] Question number four, is there a list of three qualities you try to instill in your kids? Like, three things you think are universally important.

Speaker 2:
[85:45] In my own kids, yes. I think respect for others, following through on your commitments, and you're trying to pursue excellence in the things you choose to do.

Speaker 1:
[85:58] How do you do that as you get older? Like, what's your approach to that?

Speaker 2:
[86:02] Some of it is that we say that some of these are our core values. So, following through on our commitments is something we will tell the kids is a core value, and some of it is how you, is like what you try to, the things that I try to do in my own life and model. And yeah, I mean, I think sort of modeling and then some explicit, like this is how we operate.

Speaker 1:
[86:25] Yeah, it's like express and then be the example. Exactly. You've got to explain it, make sure they get it, but then they've got to see it through you. Fifth and final question we asked is to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 2:
[86:39] I'm going to go with comprehensive fertility education for people at multiple times of their lives.

Speaker 1:
[86:46] Ideally, through the education system or?

Speaker 2:
[86:49] It's a law. Sure, I'm going to be able to implement it in whatever way I want. But yeah, I think through, we spend a lot of time telling people how not to have kids when they're younger, and then we never tell people how to have kids when they're older. I think there's a piece of that that's about parenting, but there's another piece which is just like, I think that people don't understand their own bodies very well, and I would like them to understand them better.

Speaker 1:
[87:18] I love that answer. I couldn't agree with you more. Do you think that's even realistic? It feels like it needs to be realistic to get to it. It feels ridiculous that we haven't got it.

Speaker 2:
[87:28] It feels ridiculous.

Speaker 1:
[87:29] You're saying that, I'm like, yeah, this is the thing that every human, not every human, but humanity is going to need to do for a long, long time, and the fact that you literally walk home out of a hospital with a baby, and you know nothing about it, and you have to self-educate and read a book, it's ridiculous. Listen to podcast, I'm like, it's insane.

Speaker 2:
[87:48] Yeah. I think part of it is we used to live in a society, we used to live in larger groups.

Speaker 1:
[87:55] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[87:55] Where you didn't have to know this, just everyone was having babies all the time, and also the older people were doing this. I think as we have moved away from religious communities, as we have moved away from our families, it does feel a little bit more like there's missing both some of the, I mean, there's like basic fertility stuff, but then also just sort of like shared, there is a need for somehow, the parenting advice is filling this gap, but I'm not sure we're filling in quite the way we need to.

Speaker 1:
[88:22] Yeah. No, I love that. I think that would be so powerful. I also think that even though we did get away with it in the past because of bigger communities and bigger groups of people, I don't think that was really solving the problem either. It was just covering up.

Speaker 2:
[88:34] Just a different way to cover it up.

Speaker 1:
[88:36] Yeah, exactly. Emily, it's been such a joy talking to you today. Thank you so much. Where would you like our audience to find you? Of course, they can follow you across social media. We've mentioned your books. We'll put the links in the comments.

Speaker 2:
[88:46] You can find me at parentdata.org, which is where I have links to all of these things and then many, many resources to help you make it easier.

Speaker 1:
[88:54] Amazing. parentdata.org. Thank you, Emily. Such a pleasure and look forward to doing this again.

Speaker 2:
[88:58] Awesome.

Speaker 1:
[88:59] Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:
[88:59] Thank you.

Speaker 1:
[89:00] If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past. A therapist once said to me that if your parents didn't know how to hold you, you develop the mind you hold yourself with. It's a fate of pain, and it's designed to keep you from experiencing pain.