transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hey everyone, Chris Duffy here. We wanted to share a special episode from the Archive today. I hope you enjoy. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and you're listening to How to Be a Better Human. Today, we're gonna be talking about sex. And it sometimes feels like the more that we know, the more we discover is still out there. While conversations about sex and sexuality are more out in the open these days, for many people, there is still a lot of embarrassment and shame around the topic. And as a result, many people avoid talking about it at all. Myself included, I will readily admit that I get very awkward and very nervous when I try and talk about sex. Luckily, today's guests, Siphumeze Khundayi and Tiffany Mugo, are the founders of the Hub of Loving Action in Africa, otherwise known as Holaa Africa. And, they are known for promoting conversations about sex and sexuality across the continent. What started as a passion project while they were still in university has now exploded into articles, workshops, a podcast, a TED Talk, and so much more. But at its core, Holaa Africa is a place where African women and queer people have a safe space to talk about sex in a way that's positive and not just centered on trauma or shame or sadness and also not centered on the often repressive ideas about love and pleasure that have historically been promoted by the Western world. In today's episode, I'm going to talk with Tiffany and Siphumeze about what they've learned in the process of gathering so many other people's stories, how to let go of shame so that we can communicate more freely, and how to nurture a healthier and safer attitude towards sex regardless of what you're into or not into. To get started, here is a clip from their TED Talk.

Speaker 2:
[01:47] Even you, as an adult, have some internalized ideas about sex that you never challenge. Some good, some bad, and some very, very strange.

Speaker 3:
[01:56] So, when you allow someone to see you butt naked, do you ever think about how the ideas that you internally have will affect whether you will like them tickling your elbow or kissing your thigh or shouting out the name of a chosen deity? One must do internal monitoring and evaluation if we are going to live our best sexy lives.

Speaker 2:
[02:17] And we're going to tell you how to have a great sex life, right? But the first thing you need to do is let go of the bad ideas you have about sex. Think about the things that we need to change and the things we need to embrace in all of their shiny newness.

Speaker 1:
[02:36] We are going to embrace all sorts of shiny newness right after this quick break. Don't go anywhere. And we are back. Today on the show, we're talking about sex with Tiffany Mugo and Siphumeze Khundayi.

Speaker 2:
[02:57] Hello, everyone. I am Tiffany Kogure Mugo. I am a writer, curator, and thinker about time.

Speaker 3:
[03:03] Hello, everyone. My name is Siphumeze Khundayi, and I am a theater maker, visual artist, and I co-curate HOLAAfrica.

Speaker 1:
[03:11] Well, now that we know who you are, how did you two first meet?

Speaker 2:
[03:15] So plot twist, we are actually a couple. A lot of people don't know that. I will tell my side of the story about how we met. We met at the World Cup, like bad breakup things. I was still in the country. I'm actually Kenyan, and like my ex was just being a mess. We're not even going to discuss that. And so I decided to stay for the World Cup instead of going home, the 2010 World Cup when it was in South Africa. And I think that we met the day of the first match. So that's when I think that we met, but apparently you have a different story.

Speaker 3:
[03:48] Yes. So the actual story is, so we went to Varsity together and we did, we had this festival, a theater festival, and each residence has to participate in this festival. And we shared a stage, so her res and my res shared the same stage. And they were doing, Dozikashang is, what is it called? A Four-Colored Girls. And she was one, so she didn't have any lines in the entire show. I didn't have lines. She came through just like coming in as the man who steals someone's stuff. So I obviously had to watch these people rehearse over and over and over and over. And that's actually where we met. And this was in our first day of university, but she doesn't remember me. And we then proceeded to meet every single year after that. And she doesn't remember me in all of the events that she's gone to. She remembers the people around me, but she doesn't remember me.

Speaker 2:
[04:42] Okay, so first lie, I did have lines in that play. Okay, second lie, okay, okay. I don't know whether the other stuff is a lie, but the play thing is a lie. I had lines. Our Genesis story is still up in the air, but it has been 13 years now, I think.

Speaker 3:
[05:00] Yes, 12 years. Of us actual dating.

Speaker 2:
[05:01] Yeah, so 12 years of us actually dating, and that's how we met. We forgot our anniversary this year, which just goes to show how long we've been together.

Speaker 3:
[05:10] It's been a long time, guys.

Speaker 1:
[05:12] That's a sign of a long, successful relationship, for sure. When you forget the anniversary. Okay, so you founded HOLAAfrica. What was the initial response to that?

Speaker 3:
[05:20] It was very positive, actually.

Speaker 2:
[05:22] It was positive, but everyone was very shy.

Speaker 3:
[05:25] Because I guess it wasn't a space that they were used to. It started with the physical workshops that we used to do, where women struggled to speak a lot of the time. But over time, I think people then got comfortable and they spoke quite a bit, actually. And then I think once the ball started getting rolling and people got used to telling their own stories, we just couldn't stop them. And also, we didn't censor what type of writing. All we said was, it has to be positive. You cannot put down another human being in your expression of self. That's all. So even if you are not that great at writing, we would edit your work. We'd sit down and we'd edit you and make sure that you are coming across the way that you want to come across. But outside of people struggling to speak in the beginning, I think that everyone was excited about it. Everyone, all of the responses that we got were very, very positive. Straight women were like, oh my gosh, this platform, I needed. Queer women were like, oh my gosh, this platform, I needed.

Speaker 2:
[06:29] But one thing that was very interesting was the shyness wasn't even just about contributing, but it was even around engaging with the platform. Like even something as small as a like on a post was quite difficult. So one of the things that whenever I'd go to conferences and stuff, people would come in there and be like, oh, we follow Holaa. And I'm like, that's great. And they're like, but we can't like your posts sometimes because a like is almost like acquiescence and then it's the visibility of you having liked this post. And I think in a lot of people's personal spaces, because you got your grandma on Facebook.

Speaker 3:
[07:06] Because our website, there are certain African countries where you can't access our website.

Speaker 2:
[07:11] And Asian countries.

Speaker 3:
[07:11] Yeah, and Asian countries. So there's also that to navigate. So not accessing all of the continent as much as we'd like to.

Speaker 1:
[07:20] Yeah, I'd like to get a little bit deeper into that, into the idea of context and geographical context. Because, you know, one thing I noticed in your podcast, you ask that the question can be anonymous. We don't have to know who it is. But you need to know where they're from. Because, as you say in the podcast, geographical context is really important. That's so crucial for giving this advice.

Speaker 2:
[07:40] One of the things that I've had to do is high-key check my privilege, right? Because we live in South Africa, so we can do the whole thing where we can be on a podcast like yours, which has a huge footprint, and we can live together, and we can be fine. And, you know, like tomorrow, if we go for brunch, like I could sit on her lap and it'll be fine. But like it's one of those things of, well, you see it also depends on what parts of the country we're in. So like for me, one of the biggest things has been having to like check myself every time we do work in different countries, especially like in the nature of like, you know, who we invite to the space. Like one of the things we don't do is we don't publicize when we're going to another country to hold a workshop. We'll reach out to an organization and be like, hey, can we, can you like bring your members? Where is the safest place to do this? Like we don't go with the hubris that we can just land, put up a post and be like, HOLAAfrica coming to a city near you. Like we do not do that, right? So we work a lot with sort of organizations on the ground, people doing incredible work in different countries. For me, I will not lie, it is a constant struggle of having to remember. And like even with you in Nigeria hosting that space.

Speaker 3:
[08:52] Tiff is speaking about an experience that we had in Nigeria where people struggle to speak about the positivity of their sex, struggle to speak about what they find attractive about each other, you know, and what they like, how they like to be touched, how they like to be spoken to by their partners because of this other violent narrative that they have to carry in their everyday life. Yes, it's great for the rest of the world to identify, but this is about reminding our own people on this continent and in the context that we have in the difficulty of being queer on this continent, that it is okay for you to survive, it's okay for you to feel good, it's okay for you to enjoy your person as much as you go out into the streets and the world says, this is not okay. But behind closed doors, this is important for you to know, and it's important for you to create a healthy environment for you and your partner or partners or however it is that you choose to create your sexuality or perform your sexuality.

Speaker 1:
[09:54] So thinking about, obviously, I come from an extremely high-privileged place here, and yet I still personally feel so much fear and discomfort when it comes to talking about sex and bodies. I loved your book, Quirky Quick Guide to Having Great Sex. One of the things I think is so powerful about it is you really address that. It can feel weird to talk about, it can feel uncomfortable, and it's worth pushing through that, and you acknowledge that it can feel weird. So where do you think that that fear and discomfort comes from?

Speaker 2:
[10:28] I think the constant socialization and shaming. Even though people make jokes when you're young, oh, you're a little heartbreaker and you're a little this and you're a little that. When kids will hug or be overly intimate, there's always that constant policing, that sex is something that is for a very specific time, a very specific purpose, and that gets drilled into us constantly, constantly, constantly. And I think we just continuously grow up with these mixed messages of, we should all partner up and we should all be little heartbreakers. And is that your boyfriend? Is that your girlfriend? But then constantly being told that sex is not something that we talk about. And we also don't have the language. Because think about the first time, like a parent says the word penis or vagina in front of their child. Like to this day, my mother, knowing my job, knowing the books that I have written, the work that I've done, cannot stand it when I say vagina. Like, so when you grow up in that context, you can't talk about something you don't have the tools to talk about, right?

Speaker 3:
[11:35] Yeah. There's also, I think, religion and the way that we shape our value systems around religion and shaming people for sex before marriage, you know, is a sin. And actually, masturbating is a sin. I think for the longest time, I had a lot of, I carried a lot of shame around masturbating because this gets drilled in you, you are not allowed to touch yourself. And even, or you're not in a healthy space in your relationship if you're masturbating.

Speaker 2:
[12:06] Oh, yeah. That's a good one.

Speaker 3:
[12:08] Then now you're also attaching the sexuality that you are shamed of to another person. And now you guys have to match. And yeah, there's a lot of policing around sex. Definitely.

Speaker 2:
[12:18] So much policing.

Speaker 3:
[12:20] And it comes from every single direction.

Speaker 1:
[12:26] We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back. So do not go anywhere. And we are back. Okay, so we've already been talking a bit about some of the ways that society and strict religious interpretations have put all sorts of restrictive ideas about sex into our heads. For many people, they can feel like there's rarely ever a time where we can actually openly speak about sex. And Tiffany and Siphumeze, they say that that was not always the case. And in fact, we can look to the past to teach us how to move forward. Here's another clip from their TED Talk.

Speaker 3:
[13:05] Now, it all seems pretty morbid that culture and society have failed us in our quest for coitus. But this is not the case. There are things that the past can teach us to help us upgrade the present.

Speaker 2:
[13:18] So now, if I had a glass of Merlot, which I really wish I did, I would pour the ancestors a drink because there are ways in which African societies huddled this sex thing before the sea that shall not be named. Colonization came through. We had, within African societies, we had spaces, both social and spiritual, that helped institutionalize healthy sexual practices. We had sexuality schools that taught social and erotic cues. We had spaces where teenagers could engage, understand and properly know how to handle sexual urges. And places where adults could handle the stresses and strifes of adulting.

Speaker 3:
[13:58] Ways that didn't include you hiding your credit card bill or deleting that toll-free number from your phone. These spaces of old were so important for women.

Speaker 2:
[14:07] There were African sexual practices that centered women and in particular their pleasure. Yes. These spaces still exist and they existed in the past where it was like a case of understanding that pleasure was a core part of your relationship as man and wife because heteronormativity is forever. But like just really, really understanding that and teaching that and being okay. But even within those spaces, it was for that particular thing. It wasn't just like at the watering hole being like, hey, you know what? He needs to go down on me more. Like there was specific spaces where we spoke about that.

Speaker 1:
[14:45] Yeah.

Speaker 3:
[14:46] I mean, I think even just outside of Africa as well, the world was not as intimidated by sex. I mean, you look at Greek mythology, for example.

Speaker 2:
[14:58] The Greeks were wild.

Speaker 3:
[14:59] The Greeks were wild. The Greeks were wild. People were free about sex and all over the world. It wasn't just here in Africa.

Speaker 1:
[15:08] Thinking about the big picture of what you two work on here and why conversations around sex are so important, I think that there's the one hand where on the personal level, when we don't talk about it, we don't get what we want. We don't get things that feel good. We have a lot of shame. It's confusing to try and talk to a partner and have them read our minds or we don't know how to have those conversations. But then there's also these really big societal problems with that too. Being stigmatized and feeling shame leads to prejudice. It leads to people not reporting crimes because they feel like that is shameful. It leads to not having conversations around sexual health. It leads to diseases spreading. All of these issues arise at their core from us feeling like this is not a subject that we can talk about. So, that's a huge problem that I think is really important to get past. I wonder, with the positive side of this, what does it mean when you think about people being sexually healthy? What does that mean beyond just the physical safety and precautions of that?

Speaker 2:
[16:12] I think one of the things that I've really been getting into lately is not just like the way you're saying the physical part of, you know, sexual health, but the emotional part, right? Sort of like the sort of more spiritual part of emotional health. And thinking about, not emotional health, sexual health. And thinking about it more holistically. How are you feeling about your sex, right? And I think that's like such an important part that a lot of people forget. Where when we're talking about sex, we're like, oh, OK, so I have condoms and, you know, you know, we possibly live in a world where we have like access to like safe abortions and things like that and all of those logistical things. But what does it mean to be emotionally healthy? Right. And be sitting there and have sex and be like, OK, was that like a good experience for me? Not just physically, but emotionally, because you can have orgasms and you are just like busy fighting your own demons. Right. And the reason you're having these orgasms is because you're running away from something. And one of the things we've realized a lot in our work is how sex seeps into so much of your emotional life. Right. So even like when people seek help for like sexual problems, you'll find that a lot of it, there's like a psychological element. There's like, you know, needing to look into like past traumas and things, needing to look into like what you're going through right now. And so the emotional part for me is a big part of like, what being sexually healthy looks like outside of the physical, just making it more holistic.

Speaker 3:
[17:46] So what that means for me is also being free enough to decide what you enjoy. You know, I think the world right now likes to tell us how we should perform our sex, how we should be sexual beings. We shouldn't be sexual beings or you should be this kind of sexual being. Like sex positivity has also created this huge pressure for people to be having a whole lot of sex and not necessarily like body counts or a thing now. So what that does is it starts creating a narrative that shames somebody who may not necessarily want to have as much sex or somebody who does not want to have sex at all. You know, so I think for me, sexual health is everyone being free to decide what kind of sex they want or whether they even want to have sex without outside judgment, without anybody coming in to force their own opinions on to your sex.

Speaker 2:
[18:44] So as you probably know from my podcast, I'm always like, I'm just going to tell you my life as it pertains to this. But like I know for me, one of the weirdest things that happened to me was after Quirky Quick Guide came out, I was so sexually tapped out. Like I just did not want to engage with sex, let alone have sex. And now I'm sitting on panels, I'm sitting in spaces and people who've like engaged with the book or who've just seen the cover like, so how did you write this book? Like, was it all physical research? And I am just, I am sitting there, I'm dying inside in all of these spaces. And I'm like, what is going on? And now everyone is expecting all of these like wild, eyes wide shut level stories. And I'm like, actually, I'm not having sex right now. And you can see the physical disappointment. Like people's faces just dropping and being like, what do you mean? Like, this is a whole book about how to have great, quirky sex. You must have at least three sex swings. And I'm like, no. And so it's just really weird to not be able to sometimes, even when you're like sex positive, the pressure that comes from it. So I think that idea of just being able to breathe. So that has been like a huge journey for me, to be able to sit in spaces and be like, I'm actually not having sex right now. And I feel nothing about like any of the judgment that you're feeling, because you've also come here expecting something.

Speaker 1:
[20:12] That's really one of the things that I loved about your book is that I certainly wouldn't have said that I felt like I was sex negative before. But my idea of a person who is sex positive is like someone who is way more out there, who's having sex with all sorts of people, whereas I have been in a monogamous relationship for 15 years, and I am about as boring as you could possibly get. And so I was like, that just doesn't feel like a term for me, but I think you do such a great job of explaining that it doesn't mean that you're out there and you're having all sorts of adventurous, unusual sexual encounters. It can just be that you're doing what is right for you sexually and that you feel healthy about that, which I think is not always the case in terms of how it's publicly presented.

Speaker 2:
[20:55] No. Me and my friend were joking that when you're sex positive, you have to, number one, be kind of sexy, right? We were joking. Then we were like, also all of us in my sex positive work squad, we all pole dance. It was just like, what are we all doing? How did we all end up pole dancing, guys? We love it. But guys, we can't all pole dance.

Speaker 1:
[21:18] If there's pressure on both sides, there's pressure to be chased and perfect, and I'm putting this in big quotes, sin-free. Then there's pressure on the other side to be wild and pole dancing. What would you say to people who are trying to figure out where they fit, and maybe aren't even really sure where they fit yet? What is the way to start these conversations or start to figure yourself out?

Speaker 3:
[21:40] I would say it starts with you. Rather than looking at what the outside thinks, or what the outside wants, or doing research, or doing any of that other outside work, maybe just close your doors and start with yourself. Have a little bit of a touch here and there, and see what it is that you enjoy without anybody else's opinion. Because at the end of the day, your sex is yours. And I think where the world fails is trying to have an opinion on somebody else's sexual experience. No one can tell you what your sexual experience is but you. And you cannot discover it by reading, by doing all of these things. You can do those things, they are helpful, but you have to start by connecting with yourself. What do you enjoy in your body? If you are comfortable in your body or not, how do I get comfortable in my body? What are the things that I'm uncomfortable with? Okay, then how do I get comfortable with the things that I'm uncomfortable with? Now, how do I make these things pleasurable for myself? You know, starting with that, but it is a self-discovery process. It is not a joint. It is not a group process. It's not any of those things.

Speaker 2:
[22:48] Oh, yes. And taking your pleasure and your sort of sexual experience out of your partner's hands, your partner, single, plural, whatever it is, genuinely taking your pleasure out of other people's hands, be it one night stands, be it your long-term partner, be it that person who didn't hit on you at the coffee shop, so now you're feeling undesirable. Nah, man, just as much as you can internalize things, which is difficult. Like, it's not the easiest thing, because we are pack animals as humans. But as much as you can internalize the process of your sex, your pleasure, your bodily experience, that, I feel, is one of the most important things.

Speaker 3:
[23:32] It's also okay to not be in a good space sexually. I think we also put so much pressure on ourselves. We need to fix the problem. But sometimes, it's just to sit in the problem and allow it its time, you know? So you don't have to, if you feel like you're in a sexual rut, don't try and fix it too quickly. Understand that there's something that needs to be processed and allow yourself that time to process. You don't have to be okay with sex. You don't have to have sex all the time. You can go years without it and find whatever it is in yourself, then you can start coming back to it. So yes, we're giving advice on how to fix the problem, but you also don't have to force yourself to fix the problem quickly.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] So once we figured out kind of our own deal and we're trying to communicate it outwardly, what are some examples of healthy versus unhealthy ways to talk about sex?

Speaker 2:
[24:23] One thing I always tell people, don't try and talk about and fix the sex during the sex. Guys, no one wants feedback when you're butt-naked. Like, woo, loud, have mercy. No one needs feedback when you're butt-naked, unless it's like, ooh, that was good. So we're non-monogamous. I had an experience with somebody and it was our first night, and also first nights are not always gonna be fireworks. Sometimes, most of the time, they're actually not.

Speaker 3:
[24:50] Yeah, most of the time, they're not.

Speaker 2:
[24:51] Because you're still figuring out each other. And this person decided to give me feedback the next day, which was good. It was not during the sex, but it was harsh, hey? Woo! Guys, when we give feedback, kindness.

Speaker 3:
[25:04] Don't blame the other person.

Speaker 2:
[25:06] Yes. What people tend to do is they blame the other person for like a bad sexual experience, and not understanding that sex like is a conversation. So if the conversation was whack, like there is a chance that there was a need for more of a back and forth. Maybe there was a way that you weren't connecting or whatever. So what happened with this person is they just like came at me sideways. Like it sent me reeling. There's something inside me that like shut down. And I come from a job where I have the tools to build myself up instantly. So the fact that to this like day, months later, I'm still like having glitchy moments, kindness, my people, figure it out how to say things kindly.

Speaker 1:
[25:52] We really are at our most vulnerable, right? We're literally exposed, but we're also figuratively exposed. It's hard to have a conversation where you know that you might hurt another person. And it's really hard to have a conversation where you know that you might get hurt. Even the idea of like starting a conversation with kind of one of the most basic questions, which you've recommended in your book and in your talk, right, of like, is this good? Do you like this? That is really scary for a lot of people, myself included, because if there's the chance that they say no, and then you're like, oh, but I thought it was good. Oh, no.

Speaker 2:
[26:29] I thought this was a material stuff.

Speaker 1:
[26:31] Yeah. It turns out it was a C material. Oh, no. Our grading skills are so far off. So, how do you, I mean, you two are professionals in communicating. What do you recommend for someone who is very much not a professional at communicating?

Speaker 2:
[26:43] I would recommend writing down your thoughts first.

Speaker 3:
[26:46] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[26:47] Because I think one of the biggest things with communication is when we don't plan it, we kind of stumble into it, and we just start saying things off the top of our head. And that's when things go sideways so quickly, like so, so quickly.

Speaker 3:
[27:02] And this is the hardest thing for us humans to do, but it is very important to put your ego aside. It is very important. Somebody not enjoying something does not mean that you are doing something wrong. It just means that you need to readjust now and try something different. So, and that requires you to put your ego aside. And this is about co-creating an experience together. So even as you are writing down your thoughts, understanding that, okay, cool, ego aside, what am I trying to build with this human being here? What sort of experience do I want to have with this human being? Because it's also going to be so different with each person that you have sex with. And even if you think you're confident and you know exactly what you're doing, with the next person, you're not going to know because it's a new body. And you're understanding very new things. And so you have to learn what they like. What you like and what somebody else that you've had sex with before liked isn't going to be the same thing. Most of the time, it's not going to be the same thing. So you have to relearn, you have to start from scratch every single time. So it's important to put that ego aside when you're dealing with sex and talking to a partner about it.

Speaker 1:
[28:14] It's important that we talk a little bit about how we can establish and make sure that we are constantly checking in on consent, because that is a big part of really good sex.

Speaker 2:
[28:25] Part of our work, we've seen that even in long term relationships and stuff, the idea of consent seems to still be murky, because people just do not have the basic tools to talk about their bodily autonomy, right? And it's not even just like, you know, women or gender non-conforming folks. I once had a conversation with a man and he was just like, sometimes I don't want sex, but I don't know how to say no, because the whole idea about men constantly wanting sex, you know, spreading their seed and all that stuff, it just boils down to the inability to be able to talk about our sex and our bodies and stuff. So we can't even the word no now just becomes confusing or whatever.

Speaker 1:
[29:10] Yeah. And I, from my own personal experience, I have often found that the hardest conversations to have are not about the presence of desire, but the absence of desire. As a heterosexual man, there's not really like a cultural space for that. And as a result, it's like, wait, what does that mean? Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with you? That that is a, for me personally, has been like one of the more loaded things to try and communicate and to just be like in touch with. And myself is those moments where, hey, this is just not something that I want. It's sometimes a weird pressure, I think.

Speaker 2:
[29:40] And it's so difficult. And I think this is going to be so weird. I'm out here like defending the fellas. It's not what I usually do. But like just the inability for like men to be like, actually, I don't want to have sex. And then the pressure, because then their partner is like, oh, am I undesirable? And like the way I said before, like this sort of group collective ego, the collective sexual ego, because now you don't want to have sex. And you may not want to have sex for a myriad of reasons. You may not want to have sex for one reason, right? And chances are, it's a very internal thing. But then it becomes this whole thing of like, your partner is like, am I now undesirable? And all of a sudden, you've got like this big problem on your hands. And no one wants problems. We just want peace. We don't want problems, right? So now you're just like, okay, maybe I should just have the sex. And then all of a sudden, the sex becomes a chore. And now you start thinking maybe I'm just not enjoying the sex with this person. And it just spirals. Whereas it could have just been a, you know what? I don't feel like the sex right now. Cool, baby. Like, why don't you feel about like, like the sex? And it's like, oh no, it's been a long working week or, you know, someone left a really nasty comment on like my podcast, like, you know, on Spotify or Stitch or whatever. And I don't need that. And I'm sad now, so I don't want to have the sex. So yeah, it's tricky.

Speaker 1:
[31:08] What does or what should the future of sex and conversations about sex look like?

Speaker 2:
[31:13] Woo, like wow, crystal ball things. Okay, what should? I think freedom, freedom, right? Freedom to speak about it however you want to. Freedom to let other people speak about it and engage with it. Like freedom for everyone and safety as well.

Speaker 3:
[31:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[31:29] Like just, I think with freedom comes safety and with safety comes freedom.

Speaker 1:
[31:35] And the show is called How to Be a Better Human. What is one way that you are trying to be a better human right now?

Speaker 3:
[31:42] I'm trying to be a better human by being a good human to myself because I know that when I allow myself to be free and I allow myself to be exactly how I want to be and I give myself the love and the patience, I'm able to give it to other people as well.

Speaker 2:
[32:00] I think I'm trying to be a better human by slowing down because I move very, very quickly and sometimes that comes with a lot of impatience, especially for interacting with other humans. So I'm trying to slow down, which just makes me breathe, which also gives me a lot more grace for other people. Because I feel like in this world, we all just need grace and we all just need to be patient with each other and to be kind. When you're moving at a rapid pace, it's very difficult for kindness to catch up with you. Because you're just like, what are you doing? Come on, get it together now. So I am trying to slow down so kindness can catch up with me.

Speaker 1:
[32:42] That's so beautifully said. Last one, what is something that has helped you to be a better human? So that might be a book, a movie, a piece of music, an idea. It could be anything, a person.

Speaker 2:
[32:53] So the first thing would be The Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes. The cover was serving self-help and I was like, no. And then my phone died. I know, my phone died for a weekend. So I read the whole thing. And that book like Haiki just changed my life, right? And the second thing is This Human Right Here. Like, no, legitimately, like has taught me so many things about myself, has shown me like my best parts, my worst parts. Like it's, yeah, this human right here.

Speaker 3:
[33:25] For me, sure, there's so many things. I think my art, my work as an artist has taught me a lot. And it has taken me to so many different types of contexts, you know, and I've learned so much through the work and through the work itself and the people that I've met there. And then I would say that HOLAA is the biggest, biggest game changer in my life, actually, because everything that we've had to publish, we read and, you know, it teaches you so much how other people speak in their stories, teaches you so much about yourself, and you get to know so much about your gaps, and you get to know about the strengths that you didn't realize, you get to discover your own sexuality. I discovered my sexuality because of this organization and the work that we do, and the conversations that we have with queer people, you know. I learned so much from every single person that we meet, and I think that's why we give so generously to HOLAA, because it gives to us so generously. We grow with every single thing. So biggest, biggest life changer for me.

Speaker 2:
[34:41] Really? You're not going to say me?

Speaker 3:
[34:43] Well, you are such a core part of HOLAA.

Speaker 2:
[34:45] You are like the anchor, my dear. It's too late now.

Speaker 3:
[34:48] It's too late now.

Speaker 2:
[34:48] Now we're fighting on the podcast again.

Speaker 1:
[34:50] You know, you got to go out on some drama. That's a cliffhanger for what will happen next.

Speaker 2:
[34:54] What happened next?

Speaker 1:
[34:56] Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been truly a pleasure to talk to you both, and you're such an inspiration and also just a joy. You're so much fun. It's great. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2:
[35:07] No, thank you so much for having us.

Speaker 1:
[35:13] That is our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to Be a Better Human. A huge thank you to our guests, Tiffany Kagure Mugo and Siphumeze Khundayi. They run Holaafrica, which is H-O-L-A Africa dot org. You can also read Tiffany's books, Touch Sex, Sexuality and Sensuality, and The Quirky Quick Guide to Having Great Sex. From TED, our show is brought to you by Sammy Case, Anna Phelan, Erica Yoon, and Julia Dickerson. If there is one thing that they highly encourage, it is fighting on the podcast. They love the drama. From Transmitter Media, we're brought to you by Greta Cohn and Farrah DeGrage, who have also both been tricked into reading self-help books when their phones died. And from PRX, we've got Jocelyn Gonzalez and Sandra Lopez-Monsalve, who could write the quirky quick guide to making great podcasts. Thank you so much to you for listening to our show. I hope that you have great sex. Oh, God. Oh, wow. That was so awkward. I am sorry that I said that. Please keep listening anyway. We will be back with more next week.