transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:07] Hey, I'm Dave Barnes.

Speaker 2:
[00:08] And I'm John McLaughlin.

Speaker 1:
[00:09] And we used to be cool. I don't like how that feels. Is it true though?

Speaker 2:
[00:13] It's true though. Remember we had tour buses, sold out shows, we had adoring feasts.

Speaker 1:
[00:18] Now we have minivans, dentist appointments, and kids who think our music is, and I quote, kind of weird, Dad.

Speaker 2:
[00:23] And that brings us to Dadville, the podcast where we prove that writing a hit song is way easier than getting a four year old to wear pants.

Speaker 1:
[00:31] Gosh, for me to wear pants, some days. Each week, we're talking about the highs, the lows, and the why's there peanut butter on the ceiling? Moments of fatherhood.

Speaker 2:
[00:38] We'll share stories that will make you laugh, cry, and feel way better about your own parenting disaster.

Speaker 1:
[00:43] Because if we can survive bedtime, so can you.

Speaker 2:
[00:46] Dadville, new episodes every week.

Speaker 1:
[00:48] Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We need the validation.

Speaker 3:
[01:05] Hey friends, welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls Podcast. I'm Sissy Goff.

Speaker 4:
[01:10] And I'm David Thomas, and we're so glad you joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in.

Speaker 3:
[01:23] I'm so excited about this conversation. Always like learning about these boys from you.

Speaker 4:
[01:28] Well, you need to weigh in off, and you are spending a lot of life with a seven and a four-year-old boy.

Speaker 3:
[01:33] That are pretty capable, I have to say myself. They're pretty amazing. Okay, before we get really into boys and capability, though, I want to start with something that has become renowned in the world about marshmallows. That is really significant to exactly what we're talking about, the Marshmallow Experiment.

Speaker 4:
[01:55] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[01:56] Will you tell everybody what that was and how it pertains to exactly what we're talking about with this idea of capability?

Speaker 4:
[02:02] I'd love to. So the Marshmallow Experiment was a famous study run in the 1960s by a Stanford professor, and they brought hundreds of four and five-year-olds into a room, sat them down, and placed a marshmallow in front of them. Then the researcher said, I'm going to leave the room, and if you don't eat this marshmallow while I'm gone, you'll get a second one when I come back. One treat now or two treats later. It's delayed gratification in real time.

Speaker 3:
[02:31] And the videos are incredible.

Speaker 4:
[02:33] Oh. This study has been repeated over time in so many different contexts, and it really is so much fun to watch the responses. I remember watching one attempt with it, and kids who are working overtime who are sniffing it, licking the outside of it without eating it. Some of these kids worked so hard. They tried really hard, wiggling, turning away, talking to themselves, and then they gave in.

Speaker 3:
[02:59] I should do a marshmallow experiment with Henry.

Speaker 4:
[03:00] You should. It would be fun. Now, a few kids managed to wait it out, and the reason this matters is this. The kids were followed for decades, and the research suggested that the ability to delay gratification correlated with a bunch of long-term outcomes, things like academic performance, stress responses, and a range of life measures. But the bigger takeaway is this. The ability to wait, persist, and tolerate discomfort is foundational for capability.

Speaker 3:
[03:31] Which is so hard because our world these days is set up to remove waiting.

Speaker 4:
[03:35] Exactly. Modern life is convenience everywhere, which is not inherently bad, but it can quietly steal opportunities for kids to build the I-can-handle-hard-things muscle.

Speaker 3:
[03:49] Well, I want to connect this to a modern example from the chapter. Because it's so practical. You mentioned how food pouches have exploded. Like a 900% increase since 2010. And how doctors and nutritionists have concerns about over-reliance on them. Will you walk us through why you included that?

Speaker 4:
[04:09] I'd love to. So it's a good picture of shortcuts that can create some unintended consequences. The point is this. Hear us say loud and clear at the top of this conversation. Pouches are not evil.

Speaker 3:
[04:21] I have some in my refrigerator right now. So thank you for that.

Speaker 4:
[04:23] They're not at all. It's that development happens through small, messy, frustrating experiences. Learning to chew, learning textures, using your tongue and jaw, so many muscles working together, learning to use spoons and fingers and getting messy. Those are tiny, marshmallow moments. They're uncomfortable. They're slow. But they help kids build capability.

Speaker 3:
[04:48] So it's basically if we shortcut every hard part, kids don't get the reps they need.

Speaker 4:
[04:53] Absolutely. Capability requires reps. So last disclaimer, we want to say about food patches. Some food patches are great, as long as kids also have an opportunity to practice with the clumsy, messy work of picking up foods and chewing foods and all the great growth that happens.

Speaker 3:
[05:11] Dealing with the food that breaks.

Speaker 4:
[05:13] Absolutely.

Speaker 3:
[05:14] Yes, the banana. OK, well, let's anchor this like the chapter does. You start, which I love, with Psalm 127, sons as arrows in the hand of a warrior. Why is that your favorite image for boys?

Speaker 4:
[05:28] I love that passage. Some translations will say, sons are a heritage from the Lord. Some say sons are a gift from the Lord. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. And I love the idea of that thinking about that, that imagery of arrows in the hands of a warrior have the capacity for protection, for provision for so many good things. When arrows are released intentionally into the world, as we release boys we love into the world with a lot of intention, they have the capacity for extraordinary things. But to stay with that image, when arrows are released recklessly, they have the capacity for a lot of harm. And when boys are released into the world without intentionality, they have the capacity for a lot of harm, which is why males lead so many of the scary statistics that exist out there. I think a real picture of this reality that we're talking about. So that passage is both hopeful and I think sobering too. And that's why the long game for raising boys is to raise men whose strength becomes safety.

Speaker 3:
[06:39] I love that line, whose strength becomes safety.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
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Speaker 4:
[08:14] Okay, let's just be honest for a moment. At our age, we can't remember what we had for breakfast.

Speaker 3:
[08:21] Or where we parked the car.

Speaker 4:
[08:23] Or our login information for literally anything. If a website asked me to create a new password, I immediately need a snack and a nap.

Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[09:41] That's shopify.com/rbg.

Speaker 3:
[09:47] Well, I want to shift a little and you paint a really wide angle picture first about boys' school, adulthood, technology, substance use, mental health. If you had to summarize the landscape for boys these days in one sentence, what would it be?

Speaker 4:
[10:05] I think a lot of boys are struggling with capability because they're getting fewer opportunities, less support to practice three things. Healthy risk, emotional regulation, and not being rescued from every struggle.

Speaker 3:
[10:22] Your three things, risk, regulation, rescue. Okay, let's start with risk. You talk about something that surprised me when we started hearing it more. Boys not caring about driving, not wanting to ask girls to dances, avoiding tryouts, avoiding jobs, avoiding college. What is underneath that?

Speaker 4:
[10:42] I think risk feels expensive. It's expensive emotionally. There's the possibility of rejection, embarrassment, failure, and technology always gives boys an available opportunity. No, let me say that. And technology gives boys an always available alternative that feels safer. Why risk being rejected when you can stay home and feel in control? Why risk failing when you can avoid the arena entirely?

Speaker 3:
[11:13] And you make this point that I love, that boys don't inherently know how to do these things. Boys driving and dating are skills.

Speaker 4:
[11:21] Oh my goodness. There are so many similarities between those skills. Their skills like parallel parking is a skill. Making a dinner reservation is a skill. Showing up on time, holding conversation, all these things are skills. And if boys don't practice these skills in adolescence, they miss a developmental window where practice turns into competence.

Speaker 3:
[11:44] Okay, so how do parents help boys develop a healthier relationship with risk?

Speaker 4:
[11:49] It starts with healthy risk in age-appropriate ways. So not reckless risk. That's not what we're talking about. Not unsafe risk. Healthy risk is trying, practicing, attempting, showing up.

Speaker 3:
[12:03] Will you give some examples?

Speaker 4:
[12:04] I'd love to. So, let's start on the front end. Being dropped off at Sunday school or preschool. Never did you and I dream in a million years as we started this work 30 years ago that there would be a day when we would have parents asking us, is it a bad idea to take my kid to preschool? Am I interrupting attachment in some way? That is such a powerful picture, in my mind, of how far we've leaned into what we talked about earlier in an episode of Expert Base. Like, there were so many experts speaking about, shouting about attachment, which again, is of great importance, but so much so that we would begin to believe that these opportunities for healthy risk would somehow interrupt attachment in some way. So, I think it starts on the front end there. Let's go on to, let's travel the road of development. Let's talk about ordering their own food at a restaurant and also go into restaurants that they did not choose. We incorporate dinner as a part of a lot of our groups with elementary age kids and adolescents. And we've lost count with the number of times one of our colleagues has reported that a boy fell apart over another boy in group choosing a restaurant they don't like. Like never recovered, didn't eat, never rebounded to enjoying the friendship and time, like could not get over the hill of I'm at a restaurant where I don't like the food. So, there's another clear example right there. Joining a club or a team, trying a day camp, eventually a sleep away camp. We're such advocates of camp. All the opportunities that exist for building capability uniquely in that context alongside building independence. So many great things. Trying out for something where they might not make it. Taking the learner's permit test, applying for a job, asking a friend to hang out, being the one to text first, apologize first, or initiate first.

Speaker 3:
[14:07] And the pandemic really impacted this, wouldn't you say?

Speaker 4:
[14:09] Oh my goodness, absolutely. There's no question that it deepened so many of the concerns that we carry. A lot of kids just got out of practice separating and trying new environments. And, you know, it's interesting, I can still think back to a conversation that I shared with a family post-pandemic who had their son during that period, and they experienced, as so many families did, you know, just not being able to be out in the world. They lived in a city where public parks were closed for a long period of time. And when the parks opened up, they were so excited to be able to take their son for the very first time. And the mom said, I can remember sitting him in the center of this park where some other kids were playing and walking back real quick to put a bag down on the bench and then hearing her son scream like crazy. I mean, she whipped around, convinced that he had broken a limb or been hurt in some way. And it was simply that another kid had just walked by and picked up a toy that was sitting in front of him that he was playing with. And it all of a sudden occurred to them like, he's never experienced the discomfort of someone taking away his toy. Yes. He's like, you know, we were home with him and his dad. Now I'm not taking toys away from him. But a response in that moment that did not match the event that had taken place. And we're seeing growing evidence of that kind of thing happening. So for so many families, to your great question, I think the pandemic in many ways felt like a starting over point.

Speaker 3:
[15:35] OK, let's make this practical for the parents who are listening. If a parent is thinking, my son does avoid risk. What's one thing they can do this week?

Speaker 4:
[15:44] All right. First thing I would say is do a risk audit. Just a simple reflection, thinking through, no shame. Ask the question, where is he avoiding growth opportunities? Right now. And then pick one small risk and create a plan. So you'll try the first 20 minutes of youth group. You'll email the coach for feedback, not me. You'll take the permanent practice test once. You'll apply for one job or one volunteer opportunity. And then we celebrate the attempt, not the outcome.

Speaker 3:
[16:20] Oh, I love that celebrate bravery, not success. Okay, let's switch to regulation. You talk about your three R's from Raising Emotionally Strong Boys, Recognize, Regulate, and Repair. Parents are doing better, I think, at the first one. We are talking so much with so many really wise parents who are doing a beautiful job teaching their kids to name their feelings. And what would you say is the missing piece?

Speaker 4:
[16:46] Yeah, the navigating the emotions part. I had a mom come in the other day and she was talking about her nine-year-old son. And she said, honestly, David, he is like an A- at naming. He's really getting great. And we're barely a D-plus at navigating. We got the recognize down, we don't have the regulate down. So naming emotions is necessary. But if they don't have the tools to move through emotions, they just stay stuck.

Speaker 3:
[17:11] And you told that great story in the crisis of capability in parents.

Speaker 4:
[17:15] Yes, go back and listen to that episode. Think about that story I shared of the very well-intentioned mom on the plane, the little guy who was falling apart on the decline who ended up covering most of us around him in water in his struggle. And that mom did a great job of validating. She kept saying repeatedly, I can tell you feel overwhelmed. But that little guy needed a strategy for regulation. I kept hoping at some point she was going to pull some stress balls out of his backpack at some point and they had spent time practicing how he could work through the intensity of the emotions and release some of that intensity that gets stored up in boys' bodies at different points along the way. Or ironically, that little boy, I don't think I shared this when I shared the story the first time, had one of those airplane pillows around his neck. And I kept thinking, how awesome would it have been if he'd pulled that around and screamed into that pillow in the morning? Yes. That would have muffled some of the screaming that he did in real time that we all heard on the regular. So because boys often have a lot of physicality, intensity to their emotions, they need a safe release. So instead of yelling, kicking, hitting, throwing, he needed what I call place versus a person.

Speaker 3:
[18:24] Will you explain that? Because I want every parent listening to write this down.

Speaker 4:
[18:28] So if he has a place to put the intensity, a pillow, pushups, jumping jacks, squeezing a stress ball, screaming into a pillow, he's less likely to put it on a person. I talk so much with boys in my office about how if we scream into a pillow, the pillow's not hurt. If I scream at a sibling, it hurts the relationship. If I punch a pillow, the pillow's not hurt. If I punch a parent, absolutely it does. And so what does it look like for me to take the intensity to a place and not a person? Because anger isn't the enemy. Unskilled anger is the problem.

Speaker 3:
[19:03] Okay, I need to confess something. Patches staged a silent protest this week.

Speaker 4:
[19:08] A protest?

Speaker 3:
[19:09] She could not get settled in my bed. Circling, sighing dramatically, flopping down, getting back up. And then I realized I had washed the bedding and forgot to put the Boll & Branch sheets back on.

Speaker 4:
[19:20] Oh, do you have some entitlement to work through?

Speaker 3:
[19:23] Yes.

Speaker 4:
[19:24] In her defense, I get it. She's got great taste. And here's the thing. Most people keep their bedding way longer than they should.

Speaker 3:
[19:32] Sheets start pilling, corners pop off, pillows flatten. You don't realize how much it's affecting your sleep until you finally replace it.

Speaker 4:
[19:39] We upgraded our bed with Boll & Branch. They're signature organic cotton sheets, breathable pillows, and that waffle blanket. And the difference was immediate. The sheets are incredibly soft, breathable, and they actually get softer after every wash.

Speaker 3:
[19:54] The moment you lie down, the bed just feels better. Cooler, more polished, more inviting.

Speaker 4:
[19:59] Even dogs can tell.

Speaker 3:
[20:00] Apparently. If you think you need a new mattress, you probably just need new bedding. Most people start with the signature sheet set and then quickly upgrade the whole bed. I did, and now I'm not going back.

Speaker 4:
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Speaker 3:
[20:22] That's Boll & Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com/raising, code raising to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply.

Speaker 4:
[20:36] You know we are firm believers that we all need a little more laughter and a whole lot more grace.

Speaker 3:
[20:42] And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, autism, or another learning and thinking difference, you know how intense some days can feel. The advocacy, the school meetings, the meltdowns, the moments when you wonder if you're getting any of it right.

Speaker 4:
[20:57] If that hits home, we recently found a podcast we think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for Parents of Neurodivergent Kids.

Speaker 3:
[21:06] Check out a few episodes, including one about parenting regrets after an ADHD and Autism diagnosis, and another about how, quote, fine isn't always fine when it comes to dyslexia.

Speaker 4:
[21:18] You'll appreciate the tone, it's honest, it's warm, it's funny in the way that only parents who truly get it can be. You can hear the relief in their voices when they realize they're not alone. It feels like sitting down with other parents who understand the mysteries, the multiple diagnoses, and the beauty in the middle of it all.

Speaker 3:
[21:36] If you could use that kind of community and encouragement, we really think you'll like it.

Speaker 4:
[21:41] To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app.

Speaker 3:
[21:45] That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Okay, well, let's give parents a short list. What are your favorite regulation tools for boys?

Speaker 4:
[21:56] Okay, here are a few rehearseable ones. Movement. Movement is known to be one of the most efficient, effective ways for any of us to get from chaos to calm, from stress to settle. So, 20 jumping jacks, wall pushups, run to the mailbox and back. Another is compression. So, squeeze a stress ball, push your hands together, bear hug a pillow. Breathing. Smell the pizza, cool the pizza. You often talk about square breathing. I often talk about combat breathing with boys. I've got it in Strong and Smart, a blueprint for that. Cold water. Splash your face, get a cold drink, hold an ice cube, if that could work. And then words and a plan. I'm mad. I need a minute. I'll come back.

Speaker 3:
[22:41] And the most important piece is practice it when they're calm.

Speaker 4:
[22:45] Yes. We don't learn regulation in the storm. We practice in calm so we can access it in the chaos.

Speaker 3:
[22:52] And you make a really important point. If boys don't learn to regulate internally, they'll seek external solutions.

Speaker 4:
[22:59] They absolutely do. When overwhelmed becomes chronic, boys often reach for something outside of themselves. Substances, pornography, constant dopamine, risk-taking, isolation, anything to numb or escape. Capability is, I can face what I feel.

Speaker 3:
[23:17] Well, okay, let's go to the third, rescue. This one hits every parent. Because watching the Kids We Love struggle feels awful. You say nothing about letting them struggle feels instinctive. So what do you mean when you say rescue can limit growth?

Speaker 4:
[23:35] I think too much support can quietly communicate, you can't do this without me. And I see this so often with boys in two places, academics and athletics.

Speaker 3:
[23:47] Okay, let's go academics first.

Speaker 4:
[23:50] All right, moms, I need you to fasten your seatbelt right now. We're gonna have a moment of a little harder conversation because I think you are most often, not always, but most often present when the homework battles come into play and they can set the emotional climate at home. And you can get pulled into sitting right next to boys for every assignment. I have asked a lot of boys over a lot of years of all ages, like, hey, where's your mom when you do homework? And I can't tell you how many boys look at me like, is this a trick question? Like, beside me, of course. And I want you to think about that. If every time he unzips his backpack, sits down to do homework, you slide into a chair next to him, there is some messaging happening there within the conversation that we're sharing. And please hear me say right now, loud and clear, I have worked with countless boys who have attention hurdles, boys who have learning disabilities, boys who genuinely need extra support. There is nothing in the world wrong with sitting down next to a boy you love and offering extra support. As long as at some point you get up, even if you have to make up an excuse, like, I have got to get dinner started, I need to return some emails, I've got a work call I haven't finished at this point, some reason, some excuse to need to leave so he can do the hard and messy struggling through. That is a reminder that I talk often with moms about how the long game of learning with boys is training an independent learner, not a dependent learner. And I often laugh with moms in saying that, you know, I've spent a lot of time on college campuses, having looked at a lot of colleges with three kids over the years, and nowhere in this country is there a mother-son dormitory. You cannot go away to college with him. So, no, can't do it. We've got to be training that awesome guy to be an independent learner. So let's prioritize that.

Speaker 3:
[25:52] OK, let's talk about athletics.

Speaker 4:
[25:54] OK, dads, fasten your seatbelt. I want to challenge you in this space. I think we can easily turn into coaches even when there is already a coach on the premises. And we move out of our role, which should be just being a champion for him. And we step into coaching. We are, by nature, great problem solvers. We're instructive. We do a lot of teaching, too much teaching and lecturing sometimes. And in these moments, we can easily intuitively slide into a moment of giving a lot of feedback and input, often at times when it's not welcomed or wanted. I have lost count with how many boys over all these years have told me what it's like to just shoot hoops in the backyard or throw the football in the backyard with their dads and see it evolve or turn into a coaching session. I've lost count of how many boys over the years have said something like, I hate riding home from a game with my dad. I'd rather ride home with my mom. And I know what's probably going to come next. But I usually ask, like, tell me why. And often boys will say because he's going to point out the things I did wrong and tell me everything that I should do different. And in three decades of doing this work, I have yet to meet one boy who loves to ride home from a game, especially a loss, and be told everything they did wrong or everything they should have done different. And so dad's listening, my challenge to you is be a champion. That's what he's asking for. That's what he's wanting. That's what he's desiring. Now, if he's inviting feedback, then step into that. And if he's not, keep cheering him on. They don't need analysis in the moment. They need connection.

Speaker 3:
[27:41] Let's talk about another practical takeaway. You offer two ideas that I love. One, too much support limits growth. Two, empathy and questions invite growth.

Speaker 4:
[27:54] Yes.

Speaker 3:
[27:55] Will you give us kind of a blueprint for what that looks like?

Speaker 4:
[28:00] So start with empathy. Some kind of statement like that was hard. That makes sense. I hate that for you. Then move toward questions. Do you want help or do you want space? What feels like the next right step? Do you want to email your coach or do you want to wait and talk after practice? Do you want to take a break and try again or push through 10 more minutes of hard math and then take a break? What would you do if you knew you couldn't fail? What support would actually help? Encouragement, a plan or practice? Empathy calms the nervous system. Questions build agency.

Speaker 3:
[28:42] It's so good. I want to end this conversation where you end the chapter by reminding parents that capability isn't just for kids, it's for all of us. And if you could say one thing to the parent listening who is exhausted, afraid, and tempted to rescue, what would you say?

Speaker 4:
[29:04] I would want to say you are capable of letting your child struggle. You are capable of staying calm. You are capable of holding the line with love. And when you choose empathy and questions over rescuing, you are giving your son one of the greatest gifts, the belief that he can handle hard things.

Speaker 3:
[29:25] And that's the long game. We want to help raise boys who grow into men whose strength becomes safety. Thanks for helping us figure out how to do that, David.

Speaker 4:
[29:37] Grateful for the conversation.

Speaker 3:
[29:43] David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible.

Speaker 4:
[29:48] Chris Starritt, our engineer, our management team at KCH, and we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A.

Speaker 3:
[30:03] If this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing, all the things.

Speaker 4:
[30:10] We are grateful for you and cheering you on always.

Speaker 5:
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Speaker 1:
[31:00] Hey, I'm Dave Barnes.

Speaker 2:
[31:01] And I'm John McLaughlin.

Speaker 1:
[31:02] And we used to be cool. I don't like how that feels. Is it true though?

Speaker 2:
[31:06] It's true though. Remember we had tour buses, sold out shows, we had adoring feasts.

Speaker 1:
[31:11] Now we have minivans, dentist appointments, and kids who think our music is, and I quote, kind of weird, dad.

Speaker 2:
[31:16] And that brings us to Dadville, the podcast where we prove that writing a hit song is way easier than getting a four-year-old to wear pants.

Speaker 1:
[31:24] Gosh, for me to wear pants some days. Each week, we're talking about the highs, the lows, and the why's there peanut butter on the ceiling? Moments of fatherhood.

Speaker 2:
[31:31] We'll share stories that will make you laugh, cry, and feel way better about your own parenting disaster.

Speaker 1:
[31:36] Because if we can survive bedtime, so can you.

Speaker 2:
[31:39] Dadville. New episodes every week.

Speaker 1:
[31:41] Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We need the validation.