transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] It's easy to look at somebody and be like, your life must be so sick. Man, you have no f**king clue. Talking about the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of. I'm just now trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Someone says that I suck, I'm like, f**k, I suck. Getting to talk about this is not common for me. Right now, I need it more than ever.

Speaker 2:
[00:34] Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today on On Purpose, I'm joined by singer-songwriter Noah Kahan. Noah's highly anticipated new album, The Great Divide, is out April 24th alongside his brand new Netflix documentary, Noah Kahan, Out of Body, out April 13th. Please welcome to On Purpose, Noah Kahan. Noah, it's great to finally meet you.

Speaker 1:
[00:59] Thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan and this is awesome. So thank you.

Speaker 2:
[01:02] I have to say, I'm a huge fan. Thank you for sending your documentary in advance. I'm actually really looking forward to people seeing it because it was so raw, it was so vulnerable, super real. I felt like I got to know you before I got to know you today. And then when we're sitting down before the interview today, I'm like, oh wait, this is, I feel like I've already got very familiar with you.

Speaker 1:
[01:22] It's so weird to know it's going to be out in the world. It was almost like I was able to compartmentalize the process of making it with like not thinking about anyone seeing it, so that I was able to be more myself. And then a lot of ways it was really therapeutic to film and to watch back. It's like a very heavy experience like watching yourself and getting to see your family. But my family and I were talking, we're like, we're actually so lucky that we got to be a part of this, because how rare is it to get to see how you all interact with each other in a natural way, and how you can kind of take into perspective what it would look like from an outside angle, and watching it back. I think my whole family was like, we are really good to each other, and we all are funny and love each other. And so it was a really amazing chance to see who we are, and through the eyes of someone else, and through the artistic lens of a director, and hopefully soon the audience, which is just a special thing. So I appreciate you watching it. It's my first time talking about it right now, so I'm still learning how to talk about it, and learning how to express my feelings on it, because I'm still kind of finding out what they are. But ultimately, I just hope that people that watch it feel connected to their families, to their lives, to their own insecurities through me talking about mine. And it was hard and was scary, but I think ultimately, those are the things that move people and can make people take stock of who they are. So making it, there was moments where I was like, should I talk about this? Should I say this? Should I really say what I'm feeling? So I had this hyper active ability to know how it's going to be perceived and just trying to put away my concerns about how people would perceive me and just try to be myself was a fun challenge and I think helped me in my own life now.

Speaker 2:
[03:07] Yeah. Well, I really hope this conversation is as much a discovery and exploration for you as it is for us. Yeah, I do. I hope that it helps you in the journey of what you're trying to do and the mission and the purpose that's behind it. We see so much of your childhood in it. You talk about it. What's a childhood memory that stands out to you that still defines who you are today?

Speaker 1:
[03:26] My dad and I in the documentary, we play father and son at the end, which is the first song I learned to sing and one of the first songs I learned to play guitar on with my dad. And so I think playing that song at this senior citizen's home in Hanover was really defining. So it was my first time performing and it was my first time realizing that I wasn't as good as I thought I was. I think I thought it was really good. And then I went and did that performance and I'm like, oh, this is really hard. And also the song itself is about, a lot of it's about aging and the discrepancy between youth and people that are getting older and the youth feeling like old people don't understand and we're literally doing it in an old folks home. These people are probably like, yeah, the dad character is way more correct than the son character. But that was a defining moment for me. And also the only time my dad and I have ever performed for anyone besides our family until we did the documentary, so I always remember that, like a really special moment of my childhood.

Speaker 2:
[04:18] That is special. That's really special. What were you like as a kid? Like how would you describe yourself growing up?

Speaker 1:
[04:24] I'm one of four, kind of like middle child. Like it's my older brother, my older sister than me than my younger brother. So I was kind of like in my own world a little bit, I think, very creative, very like aspirational to do something creative with my life, even from a very young age, but also like very distracted, distracting, just kind of trying to be heard even just around the dinner table or in school, just like trying to make my voice the loudest one to get like a chance to say what I had to say.

Speaker 2:
[04:50] And what was your method? Just raising your voice?

Speaker 1:
[04:52] Just yelling and like, yeah, just being like an asshole basically, I think. But just trying to be heard and trying to like get the attention that I wanted, just kind of being in the middle and trying to just have my voice be one that people can hear. I was not a great student. I think I was pretty smart, but didn't really care much for school because I always, always, always wanted to be a musician. And truly like every year of school for me felt like just one more year of me not getting to go be a singer. So I was just looking forward to being done with school and going to write songs and going to play music and going to do open mic. So very like, I don't know, kind of just like itching and a little anxious to get out as a kid from whatever situation wasn't like going to achieve my dreams.

Speaker 2:
[05:34] What do you think your vision was for life if this hadn't happened, like this incredible success and journey that you're on right now? Like what did you envision?

Speaker 1:
[05:41] I literally never, ever thought about it. Like I've never thought about anything else besides being a musician. In sixth grade, you wrote a letter to yourself that you would open when you graduate high school, and like my letter was just...

Speaker 2:
[05:51] That's such a great exercise.

Speaker 1:
[05:52] Yeah, it is actually really cool, and like kind of sets you up for like sadness a lot of ways. It's like, oh man, I haven't done any of that shit. But for me, it was like, I want to have a record deal by the time I graduate high school. And I want to make, it was basically like you better still be making music, you better still be like writing and like thinking about music. And when I graduated high school, I had a record deal and I opened up the letter. I'm like, this is cool. I think I made my like child with itself pretty proud there. And so I remember writing that. And actually like throughout high school, I was like thinking about like, man, I got to get that record deal or sixth grade, Noah's going to beat me up. But yeah, that was always my life plan. I think if I, people do ask me all the time about what I would do if I wasn't in music, but it's always with the context of already being in music. I think music is so, my job feels so me focused all the time and like so centered on who I am and marketing me, and marketing my vulnerability and whatever. And so I think just something that would be focused on other people and focused on like helping other people and extending myself to help others spotlight themselves. Just something that wasn't so Noah all the time.

Speaker 2:
[06:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you've talked about how like writing as a teenager was an outlet for feeling different and your anxiety. Like what was that feeling different than that music was an outlet for? And what was the anxiety back then?

Speaker 1:
[07:09] Yeah, it was interesting. I was always trying to fit in and had lots of friends, but I always felt like I was hiding this part of myself that was really vulnerable and sad and going through a lot of mental health stuff even at a really early age. And I think that created this disconnect in my life where I was going to school or hanging out with my friends and really putting on to be who I thought would be accepted, and then going home and feeling really disconnected from this presentation of myself all the time. And so writing music was my own special little thing. And for a long time, I really missed that too when it was just my special little buddy, just going home and writing a song and having this other Hannah Montana thing that I did, where I would go home and write music and then go to school and just be a class clown and be annoying at school and then go home and just access this other side of myself. So writing music was always a way for me to have something that made me feel like I belonged in who I really was.

Speaker 2:
[08:09] Yeah. You missed that because you don't feel you get to do that anymore in a certain way?

Speaker 1:
[08:14] I just feel like everything I do, even internally on my own, I just always am thinking about it from how is this going to move my career forward? How do we market this? I don't know, when you start to be sentient to who you are and what your music can represent to people, it can affect the intention. And so sometimes I worry that I'm not saying things that I feel, I'm just saying things that sound deep or sad or whatever. And I like to think that the music that I put out is all stuff that I connect to, but it's just in the writing process and thinking about, how do we market your vulnerability in the next album? How do we show people this other sad thing? And when it's like, I feel like there's all this shit that's up for grabs and up for like, everything that I have is going out and being taken in and being absorbed or being sold. And I miss when it was just me and the guitar and like, the only person in the world that was going to hear that song was maybe my mom and then my notebook or whatever. So yeah, I miss that. And I miss having music be just this special thing that wasn't adulterated by the other side of music, which is not as much fun for me.

Speaker 2:
[09:21] But what I'm hearing from you is that in your writing process, you're almost using that awareness that you have to go, oh no, I want to write with intention and I want to write with my real feeling. And it almost feels like you're using it as a filter, which I guess you're saying in the past that filter didn't exist. You didn't need to. Now you almost have to filter it through that.

Speaker 1:
[09:38] Yeah. And in a lot of ways, it's nice because seeing people respond and I'm not even talking about like marketing or charts or whatever, like selling shows, it's just watching people in the crowd, hearing the music and watching a girl and her dad or frat guys or grown men out there feeling the music.

Speaker 2:
[09:57] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[09:58] That inspires me to be vulnerable. It's just a matter of towing the line between being vulnerable and trying to achieve what people think vulnerability looks like. And sometimes realizing that sometimes some things don't fit into a box, they don't fit into a three and a half minute song. Sometimes the conversation is much larger and being okay with not being able to say everything you want all the time. And just, yeah, even like as I talk about the documentary, just like I'm still figuring out how to talk about these feelings that I express. Like I don't have a thousand foot view of like what I went through. And so learning how to like express myself without feeling like I'm giving myself away is something that I've been grappling with a lot.

Speaker 2:
[10:38] Yeah, there's this, I mean, just for whatever it's worth, when I was watching the documentary, my wife randomly was walking through the room and she stopped. She didn't even know what I was watching. Like she just thought I was on my laptop and I'm watching it. And she walked in on the moment where you're singing for the little wonderful girl who has cancer. And my wife just stopped and was like, she heard it and she was so mesmerized. She came over and she just saw the little girl and she was like, that was just your music and that moment. And she had no clue what was going on. Yeah, she didn't know and it had an impact in this very passive way of even experiencing it. And I think that says a lot about what you're channeling and putting through.

Speaker 1:
[11:15] That's the most wonderful compliment, that somebody that I'm sure your wife has a very different background than I do, or maybe she was from my hometown. But just somebody that's not in my world or in my body or in my experience finding a connection within themselves or an interest in something. I think that's like what mental health, the conversation about mental health for me has been so cool. It's like understanding that where I came from is my own, and I grew up with privilege and with access, and that people that didn't have that are still connecting to the feelings there. And it brings us together and it helps equalize our differences into this larger similarity of just going through something mentally.

Speaker 2:
[11:58] Yeah, I listen to you and I'm like, wait, was I from Vermont? Yeah, I'm like, why does this steal my soul? I'm not just saying that to flatter you. I'm like, wait a minute, why does this hit so deep? It's such a beautiful thing of connecting to strangers or people from different walks of life and different backgrounds. But I find it fascinating that you talk about almost missing this old experience, but then in the documentary, you start it with this line of, I'm so afraid of losing this special thing, and it might go away. And so it's almost like there's something beautiful about what's happening now, too.

Speaker 1:
[12:33] Yeah, I think I'm just constantly in a grass is greener mindset and constantly trying to go backwards. I worked with this songwriter in Nashville, and he's this older guy. I started when he was in his 40s. His name is Tom Douglas, a great writer. He said songwriting is all about trying to go back and to somewhere simpler and somewhere easier. And I think that's how I live a lot of my life. And I'm very actively, hyperactively aware of moments as they're there. And I'm not able to be inside of the moment because I'm so worried about when it's gone. And I know I'll never be able to go back to it. And so in the documentary, you see a lot of me being like this imposter syndrome of like, I might not get this ever again. This might all go away. And for having worked for so long, for like nine, eight or nine years before, I had that kind of moment that allowed me into those big venues and that like more kind of like global success, I guess. I'm so aware of how fleeting and how hard it can be to re-find it. And so I think I spent so much time worrying about not being able to get it again, that a lot of those moments I wasn't able to fully live in. So when there were moments like Fenway Park in the documentary, as you see in the movie, like that I'm able to fully be in, those are so special to me.

Speaker 2:
[13:43] And you felt you were like that?

Speaker 1:
[13:44] That was one of the few times that I felt like I was just there. And like looking out and I just felt like so with everybody else in that moment and not thinking about before or after. And you know, that's why that show was so special to me, like the fans all being there, the venue, amazing. But like for me, selfishly, it was just like, I'm here, this is awesome. I am right where you guys are right now. And I felt like the same for a little while.

Speaker 2:
[14:05] I mean, I feel like I love watching that genuine kind of present, yet anxious feeling we all experience. Like that shot of you lying on the lawn at Fenway, like lying on the ground and texting right at the beginning. And it's like, you're like, I can't believe I'm here. It's surreal. But then you're like, but I'm anxious. And when I watch that, I'm like, but that's so real. That is the most present way, in one sense, to experience anything. It's like, that's the human experience, right? It's like-

Speaker 1:
[14:32] I always am so jealous of, and maybe there's no one exist that can do this, but someone that's just fully living in the moment. Fully just accepting things as they come, being right there, experiencing everything and not thinking about the context or the future.

Speaker 2:
[14:45] It's possible, yeah. It's possible, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[14:46] Oh, that'd be so sick, dude. If you have a guy in LA that you could hook me up with, like just implant something in my brain.

Speaker 2:
[14:52] I only know the meditative way to that. I don't know the technological way to that.

Speaker 1:
[14:56] Even meditation, bro. I'll be meditating and I'll be like, man, I don't think I'm meditating good enough, dude. I meditated so much better when I was young, dude. It's hard. Meditation, it's so powerful, but it's so difficult to like-

Speaker 2:
[15:09] It's like golf. It's hard.

Speaker 1:
[15:10] It is. And it takes a while. The consistency is key for meditation, I think. I'd like to learn more about that from you someday.

Speaker 2:
[15:16] Of course, man. Of course. I love how you talk about this. I think what I'm getting at is there's- I just feel like you're really honest about how we all feel. I think it's very easy to artists to be like, all right, I had this success, you know, sixth season was insane, like the next thing is going to be as big or bigger. And the reality is, I think anyone who's had any success, you're always scared of your next thing. Like that's just such a normal human emotion. And so you talk about this idea of being scared and sad for the next album. How does that bleed into your creativity and how do you use it rather than be controlled by it?

Speaker 1:
[15:46] That's a great question. I'm still learning. I mean, when I was 16 years old, no record deal, nobody knew I was making music or anything. I remember still feeling that way. Like I wrote a song called Sync when I was a kid, and I loved this song. And then the next day, I was crying, because I'm like, I'll never make anything as good as that again. So there is no stakes at all for me at that point in my life. But that feeling has chased me around throughout my entire career and was incredibly difficult coming off of stick season just because I kept on raising the stakes emotionally for myself to have to follow it up. And for the first year after being on tour for three years of stick season, I was just kind of lost in how to fight that feeling. I had a conversation with a few different artists. I don't necessarily want to name them just because I don't want to put them on the spot, but they had gone through this themselves, like burnout and major success and needing to follow things up. And the advice was just like, the best advice I got was like, it's just not going to be the same process and you can't control it. You can't like try to make it perfect and it's just going to be what it is. So I had to just kind of let go of this idea of like the follow up and just make music for that same, you know, eight-year-old that picked up a guitar the first time and just make music because it's what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 2:
[17:01] Yeah, it's beautiful to hear that you actually reached out to other artists who've gone through similar things. And have you felt that support in that community? Because I think there aren't so many more artists now who are talking about their mental health and are talking about the creative process and everything else.

Speaker 1:
[17:16] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel like people really want to talk about themselves, I think, and sometimes it's just getting that conversation started. It's funny because, like, creativity and its intersection with self-worth is so difficult for people to navigate.

Speaker 2:
[17:30] That's so well said. Explain that for me.

Speaker 1:
[17:32] Yeah, just, I think a lot of times, as creative people, as writers, actors, whatever, podcasts, you feel like what you do is who you are. And when you're talking about what your job is, is expressing yourself, you feel like when you can't express yourself, you're not good at your job, and you're not good at satisfying this need to let yourself out. And so it becomes very lonely, because you feel like admitting that to somebody is, not just admitting that you're struggling in your job means you're struggling with yourself. And that can be really, really difficult to say to somebody, especially somebody that you look up to that you think has it all together. So like talking to these people was really hard. Like my voice shakes in the phone being like, I just don't think I can write songs anymore, and I don't think I can do this. And like having to open yourself up to somebody like that and be like, and be afraid that they're going to say, well, that sucks, you know? And to hear someone say, I get it, and I went through that too, or I have my own version of that in my life. It just makes the world feel brighter. It makes like the clouds over your head, just for a second go away, and you're like, at least, even if it's not fixed yet, at least you've been here before, and there's a path out. So I'd like unbelievably grateful to those artists, to my family, to my wife, to the people that like sat with me in those feelings and like observed how I was handling it and recognized that I needed some help. So I'm really grateful to the people that helped me. And if you're listening to the podcast, like thank you so much. And this album would not have happened without them.

Speaker 2:
[19:00] So everything you just said was so well articulated. I hope you listen back to it because it was just everything you just said about creativity and self-worth just resonated so strongly.

Speaker 1:
[19:10] Thank you. Yeah, it's hard to describe.

Speaker 2:
[19:12] And it's hard to describe it really well. Thanks, man.

Speaker 1:
[19:15] It's hard. I was like, you literally just summed up the essence of when I was a kid, I was like, even because when I was going through this stuff as a kid, like writer's block and stuff like that, I would just look up artists with writer's block and hope that I could see a quote from somebody that would just like unlock everything. And I found a few, but like I tried to make a vow to myself to like talk about creative struggle because it's really isolating and really lonely. And it just feels like you get stripped of who you are. And it's, it just feels like you're drowning. So I always want to try my best to share what I've gone through, just so people can, can maybe hear it and be understood for a sec.

Speaker 2:
[19:50] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, not, not to compare, but to reflect my own experience. I spent the last, from when I started the process, I spent the last 12 months trying to figure out just what the topic of my next book was going to be about. And it was the most excruciating 12 months of my life, because I wrote, I've written two books. This was my third book that I'm writing. And I wrote chapters, threw them away. I wrote chapters that I thought were quite good, and then I read them back and they weren't. And I was overthinking, ruminating and everything else. And then 12 months later, I was like, I'm going to write a book about overthinking. Because that's what I've just done for 12 months.

Speaker 1:
[20:23] Totally, that's your experience.

Speaker 2:
[20:24] That's my actual experience, rather than writing from the place of knowing, I'm going to write from the place of what I'm struggling with. And it just-

Speaker 1:
[20:33] That reaches people.

Speaker 2:
[20:34] Yeah, but it took me a year to even come to that conclusion where-

Speaker 1:
[20:37] And did you feel like when you made that choice internally, did it feel easier? And did it feel like the words flowed?

Speaker 2:
[20:44] So much more. But it was because before, I was trying to technically figure out, I had this really good book, it did really well, what was good about it, how would I repeat that? And what would that chapter structure look like if it matches that structure? And people said they loved that chapter from that book. So let me, and it's like this mathematical process, which is not how I wrote that first book.

Speaker 1:
[21:04] No, it's never.

Speaker 2:
[21:05] And so then I'm like, wait, why am I trying to be a mathematician?

Speaker 1:
[21:08] You can only go through what you're going through. Like you can't like change the feelings you have, even if they're feelings that you don't think are gonna be marketable or as successful. And then you kind of realize like that's actually more compelling than listening to you pretend to be going through something and pretend to have a perspective on something. Like people relate to that. That's awesome, dude. I'm pumped that you went through that too.

Speaker 2:
[21:30] Yeah, no, no, no.

Speaker 1:
[21:31] Well, not pumped that you went through it, but I'm pumped that you got through it and that we're able to talk about it with like the perspective.

Speaker 2:
[21:36] No, I'm pumped. Now I'm pumped I went through it too, because for that year, you just feel like you're pulling your hair out going, what are we doing here?

Speaker 1:
[21:43] I wonder if the next time that you and I have to do something new, like I always wonder, are we gonna be able to like, is this gonna help us the next time? I'm always like, am I just gonna be back to zero? Do we just forget? Do we just get amnesia and like start again? Or like, I hope that this experience for me and that experience for you, like lets you have a little bit of like confidence for the next time.

Speaker 2:
[22:01] Yes, yes.

Speaker 1:
[22:02] That's like what I'm trying to like, I'm trying to tell myself, like I just went through this hard thing creatively, and I'm gonna have to be more creative in my life. Like, let's hope that these lessons actually help me instead of like just forgetting about them and getting lost in the sauce.

Speaker 2:
[22:15] Yeah, I feel like writing down these lessons protects them for me personally. Like, I'm like, I need to journal about it, I need to write about it, I need to cement what you just said, like this idea, this moment where we're having this interaction and be like, Noah said to me, I hope we don't forget these things.

Speaker 1:
[22:31] Dude, I do the same thing. I write whenever, like I used to write a good song or a song that I thought was good, and then I would put in my notes app, like everything I did to get that good song. And it's funny, because when I'm going through something hard, I look back and then I'm like, okay, I'm trying and it's not working. So yeah, it's complicated. Creativity is so annoying because it like, it makes you start from scratch every time, and it forces you to like use that muscle memory. And it's just a mind. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[22:59] I mean, sorry to swear, but it's just a mind.

Speaker 1:
[23:01] It's a mind, man.

Speaker 2:
[23:02] Yeah, I remember like Rick Rubin was here, like maybe two years ago now. And then you get Rick who's sitting there just going like, yeah, don't make anything for anyone, like just make it for yourself. And I'm like, yeah, like I wish, but it's hard. It's like, you know, it's not.

Speaker 1:
[23:16] And everyone's journey is so different. And like everyone's like creative process is so different that it could be so hard to like find the bridge between two people. It's difficult. I mean, again, like I'm jealous of people that just like can write every day and love what they're making and like not have to worry about how it's being perceived. Or I feel like writer's block, it's so closely tied to like anxiety and like the self-fulfilling prophecy that you have. Like if you worry about something so much, it's going to happen. And then you worry about worrying and then you're worrying about worrying and then it's like, it's here. You know, like there you did it dude. You're like congrats. Like I hope that I learn in the process before I get to that place like to recognize what is happening internally and like question it instead of just letting it flow and go into this shitty spot.

Speaker 2:
[24:00] It's almost like we trust every thought.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[24:03] And that's such an interesting idea. It's like if you trusted everything you've read on social media and believed it to be true without checking it. But we do that in our mind all day.

Speaker 1:
[24:10] All the time.

Speaker 2:
[24:11] And any thought doesn't get any evidence checked. There's no proof needed. There's no rebuttal.

Speaker 1:
[24:15] It's like a weird arrogance that everything you think has to be correct.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] And then you're anxious about that. It's like this anxious arrogance maybe is the way to think about it.

Speaker 1:
[24:25] Oh my God. I know, it's a little bit of like this ego thing where it's like, oh, I've been, especially because we all are really doing this in one way or another from since we were children, I think, like expressing ourselves creatively. So it's tied up in your inner self and this like, you don't want to betray this like process that you've cultivated, but like, I never questioned that maybe that process actually wasn't very healthy and there's a real way that I can make good music without having to suffer all the time for it. And we look at people like Van Gogh and these famous artists that like battered themselves to create, and we think that has to be how it is. And I've subscribed to that theory for a long time. I'm just now like trying to unwind this idea that I have to be unhealthy physically, or in pain in some emotional way in my life to create good music. There has to be a way to access it without living it all the time.

Speaker 2:
[25:19] The call you almost didn't make. Let me ask you something honestly. Have you ever almost made a phone call and then decided not to? Maybe you picked up your phone and thought about calling someone. It might have been someone you had not spoken to in a long time. It might have been someone you wanted to thank. Or maybe it was someone you needed to apologize to. But then you hesitated. You might have told yourself that it was not the right time. You might have thought they were probably busy. Or maybe you convinced yourself that sending a quick text would be easier. So you put down the phone. Most of us do this more often than we realize. We underestimate the power of a simple phone call. But when you really think about it, some of the most memorable moments in our lives begin with someone deciding to reach out. They begin with someone deciding that the conversation was worth having. For more than 150 years, phone calls have helped people bridge distance and stay connected with the people who matter most in their lives. However, the real magic of a phone call has never been the technology itself. The real magic lies in the intention behind it. A call is a moment when someone chooses to say, in the simplest way possible, you matter enough for me to call. Think about the last time someone called you unexpectedly just to check in. It probably meant more than you expected. Hearing someone's voice reminds us that we're not just another notification or message. We're a person someone cares about. So today, I want to challenge you to do something simple. Think about the call you almost made recently. Instead of waiting for the perfect moment, create the moment. Call the person, say the thing you've been meaning to say. Because sometimes, the call you almost didn't make becomes the moment someone remembers forever. This moment was sponsored by AT&T. Connecting changes everything. Did you believe that if you heal too much, it would reduce your creativity?

Speaker 1:
[27:20] 100%.

Speaker 2:
[27:20] You used to believe that?

Speaker 1:
[27:21] I used to believe that, for sure. Like, I mean, it came into the conversation when I started taking medication for my anxiety when I was in high school, OCD diagnosis more recently. Like, these problems were really hard for me and were disrupting my ability to wake up in the morning and to just be a human being. But I was holding off on getting the help that I really needed for a long time because I was so afraid of it doling my creativity. And then I would look at my creativity and be like, well, this is not pretty very good either. Like, I'm not making anything good right now. I can barely put my pen to the paper. I can barely even process a single thought. And I was like, I don't want to get help because I'm worried that I'll be happy and I won't care about making something. And I won't feel pain and it won't be painful enough for my audience. It won't be scared. The feelings won't be real enough for my audience. And it just took like kind of just saying, well, I don't want to live like this anymore. And if it means that I write a happy song and like I need to get up in the morning. And I found that I was still sad in a way that felt more manageable, and I still had feelings and deep thoughts about things, but I wasn't getting sidebarred by rabbit holes of obsession and rabbit holes of anxiety anymore. And it really was a turning point for me making this record. Was just like taking the step off of the cliff, so to speak, into the unknown. And again, it's a control thing, like I can't control this and it sucked. But when I let go is when I found it again. I was in Joshua Tree and I have never been to Joshua Tree. I'm not even particularly a huge desert guy. It kind of scares me. But I was like, I'm struggling a lot in my life. I need to go to Joshua Tree and find myself and make music. And I had just gotten diagnosed with OCD. It's something I had suspected for a long time. And there's so many varying kind of branches of this problem. And so I never really knew where I fit into the conversation. So I didn't want to get the diagnosis and be like, I have OCD now. I was kind of scared. But I just got diagnosed with OCD and I was in Joshua Tree. And I was feeling so miserable when this beautiful Airbnb, like I'm in the desert, I'm like, this isn't making me feel connected.

Speaker 2:
[29:20] Oh shit.

Speaker 1:
[29:21] And I was like so lost in that. And so being somewhere beautiful and realizing that the problem was like beyond where I was or where I put myself or how nice the studio or the collaborators were, like realizing that I just wasn't going to be able to do it on my own was like that Joshua Tree trip was like horrible, but also incredibly enlightening. So I was like, all right, that was my last try. I was like hoping life fixes this for me.

Speaker 2:
[29:43] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I imagine it's also one of the things you address in the documentary is that it's challenging because you don't want to like air your family's laundry. Like, you know, it's like this, a lot of what you write about is your family and is your upbringing. And talk to me about how hard it is when it's like what you're writing from is your family and you love. Obviously, it's obvious in your doc that you will love each other and you have a supportive relationship. But at the same time, it's hard to do that.

Speaker 1:
[30:07] It's complicated, man. I think actually like one of my biggest regrets is not knowing how to communicate how I was feeling and choosing to do it through the songs that were then marketed to millions of people and heard by millions of people without having that conversation first of saying, hey, mom and dad, this is what I'm feeling about. Your guys' divorce or whatever is going on, our lives. My dad's brain injury and these things that I never really knew how to talk to them about. I'm much better at saying it in songs. I don't want to say cowardly, but I'm afraid of that conflict sometimes. And so I go back to this like, okay, well, I'm going to write it down, like angsty teen. I'm going to go write it down. But when you're writing things down in a journal versus when you're sending them to every streaming platform and every marketing thing in the world, the effect that I feel like it could have on people is that they feel blindsided. And my mom has always told me she was happy that I was getting those feelings out. She's been so supportive of my dad as well. But I still felt like this regret of being like, I wish I had talked to you guys about this first, because it would have been so much healthier. It would have been more fair to you. It would have been probably more helpful for me. And it's hard to, like you said, air the dirty laundry in a way that's fair to everybody. And I don't think I did that in my last album. So I've been really trying to be intentional about making sure I communicate what I'm saying and why I'm saying it to my parents, to my family in this next album. Making sure they have a fair shake to say, hey, maybe that makes me feel uncomfortable. Like, please don't do that. And the documentary is like another huge extension of that, like allowing these people into my home, into my parents' homes, into their marriage, into my dad's injury, into my issues with my body, and things that will be seen in the documentary. It's been really important to be communicative with each other about what people are comfortable with, why we're doing it, why it's important to have hard moments in there and how it can be helpful for people. Like I had a conversation with my sister and I'm like always checking in to make sure they're okay with this. And like it's been this big anxiety thing for me of like, I'm so worried that you guys feel like I'm using you or like trying to exploit our pain or our experiences for my own gain. My sister said it best, she's just like, is it painful to see dad from the outside angle like this? Yes, but like she's like, I really think someone who's going through this in their own way with their parents or their friend or family or partner is going to be helped by it. And so there's like a greater good to those like just uncomfortable, vulnerable feelings. And that made me feel better, like hearing them be supportive of it and not be like mad at me or scared or... It's helped me kind of grappled my own anxiety about all of it and about showing the world, my family and my life.

Speaker 2:
[32:51] Yeah, thanks for sharing that conversation with your sister. I didn't know that. When was the first time you kind of talked to your parents about this? And what was that interaction like?

Speaker 1:
[32:59] It was hard because like when we started the documentary, I don't think I was fully aware of like where it was going to go. And I think obviously, that's kind of how all good documentaries are. Like it starts out with something that feels small or controlled, then it becomes something, I don't know, more universal and deeper. And so, you know, I'm just like, yeah, they're coming to film some stuff. And then suddenly, you know, my dad and I are like having this really intimate moment on the porch or the conversation in the yard. And I think the best way that I've always done, been able to be vulnerable is like conversations like this, where you're not like, here are the things that you have to say. Like it just kind of happens naturally. But I think we were kind of just like, yeah, they're just going to come film some stuff, and I'll probably play the acoustic guitar, and we'll leave. And then it kind of like developed into this more intimate, like vulnerable piece. So I think they learned with me as things were happening, what it was going to be like. And man, like the first time watching the documentary, because you see it all get made around, you're kind of able to like pretend it's not happening. And I think we all were kind of like, let's think about that later. But like when it finally was time to watch, it was like one of the most stressful days of my entire life.

Speaker 2:
[34:01] Yeah, have you watched it with the whole family yet?

Speaker 1:
[34:03] Yeah, so it was, I got it first and one of the most poorly timed edibles of my entire life. I was literally, I was like coming up on this like weed edible and the documentary gets sent to my inbox and like I'm going to send it to my family, but I really want to watch this first. And so watching this two hour long, hour and a half long movie about myself was like, oh my god, yeah, and I'd never seen all the pieces together and how like emotional it was. And my family and I talked to each other like honestly and emotionally all the time, but like we kind of are like, oh, let's have a drink and I'll see you tomorrow. Like, you don't have to think about it again. So like knowing that this was like there for everyone to watch and that I was gonna have to send it to my mom and brother and sister who were really right down the road was really scary. And so I sent it to them and like, I think that their response, like I guess I was hoping that they'd be like, this is amazing, great, send it off to Hollywood. I think for them, it was an emotional experience as well. And it was like challenging in a lot of ways to watch, I think beautiful at the same time, but challenging them to see, not just like seeing yourself on camera, which is weird and like not human, but just seeing how the themes came together and like kind of reminded us of this painful thing that we've had to go through as a family. And so it was like a lot of conversations at first about how we felt about it. If we wanted to do it or not, I was ready and willing to be like this, let's not do it then. If you guys are feeling any type of way about it, let's not do it. It's fine. When we all watched it together as a family, we found ourselves laughing, crying, hugging, and being so excited because it brought us all a lot closer. And it helped us kind of like actually visualize what it's like for my dad, what it's like for my mom, what it's like for all of us in our own way. And I remember this feeling of just like this golden week afterwards, where we all just felt super connected to each other, and we felt this gratitude, and it really has brought my dad and I a lot closer. In a lot of ways, there are things that I said in that documentary that I knew someday he was going to hear, but I don't think I ever could have said myself because I wasn't brave enough or something or I was too scared. And so having this vehicle to tell my dad what I was feeling and tell him how sorry I was for my impatience with him and how sad I felt about what he had gone through and it created this connection that I think we never really got to have. And it was really, really special and powerful. And like I said at the beginning, I wish every single family could have a chance to watch the way they interact with each other and to get to see what it looks like to love each other and to be a son, a daughter, a father, a mother on screen because it really helped us.

Speaker 2:
[36:43] It's fascinating when that process becomes therapy and healing almost. Did it make your parents re-address any of the things you brought up? Like did it start new conversations that hadn't happened before where they said, oh, when you said this or when you felt this, like this is what was going through our life?

Speaker 1:
[36:58] Yeah, it did. I did. And, you know, I'm like I said, I'm still learning how to talk about it. But I do feel like it helped us address why our reservations were there. And a lot of times, reservations are are like fears. We're not even about like what's actually being shown. It's about us grappling with it being out. For sure, you know, like I remember thinking about the sting of my dad, or I'm like, oh, I don't want anybody to like see my dad as vulnerable or like going through this hard thing. And I think the truth was that I was grappling with my own like shame or whatever about it and my own like embarrassment for having my own vulnerabilities. Or and so it wasn't even about like what's on screen. It was about my own internal dialogue about it. And so I think that was really important. And that opened up a lot of conversations about like, my dad loves this movie. He's seen it. This isn't about him even in this moment. This is about my own shit. And so I need to work through this and stop being like projecting my own fears onto my, onto these other people in my life. Which was really important and a hard thing to accept. But I think a lot of us had that realization and that was really healthy. I think to kind of express that to each other. And, you know, painful things, like we don't always want to talk about them all the time. And with people living all over the country and people being in different walks of life in my family, in my life, like it was nice to have to kind of force ourselves to confront some of these feelings. And it was really healthy.

Speaker 2:
[38:23] Yeah, it's, I'm only sharing this because it's reminiscent of a conversation I had a couple of months ago with Chris Hemsworth who made a documentary about his father's Alzheimer's.

Speaker 1:
[38:33] Oh, wow.

Speaker 2:
[38:33] And so it's about his dad's journey and he's forgetting details. And, and he felt the same way as you did, where it was like, am I like putting my dad's story out there like this? Like, and then what he said was when he watched it, it was really emotional for him and his dad to watch it, but it was actually most amazing to watch his sons watch it. Cause they watched and they were like, we want to spend more time with grandpa. That's amazing. And he was like, that was, you know, and it's, it's that kind of thing where I'm listening to you going like, this is something that your family has come closer together over it. Which is why you're saying like, you wish every person could almost make a mini doc about their life and not even share it publicly. Like it sounds like a healing experience.

Speaker 1:
[39:12] Honestly, it'd be a cool like, a family therapy thing to do. It's not, it'd be very expensive. But no, totally. And like so much of what we feel other people are going through is really just a projection of how we are experiencing our own pain. I think like my dad is the man. He is happy doing his thing. He loves his life. There are struggles like in any person's life. And he has, you know, he has had to struggle through this injury. But a lot of it was just me worrying about him and like making it seem like it was his, for some reason, his responsibility to feel that same worry that I had. And it's not. People experience their pain differently. And I learned a really good lesson through making this documentary that like, my view of the world and view of people's trauma isn't always accurate. And it's not fair to like suggest that they're going through what I think they're going through all the time.

Speaker 2:
[40:06] I mean, that's huge. If there was any lesson we could all learn.

Speaker 1:
[40:09] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[40:10] That's huge. Like to be able to actually go, oh, wait, the way I process stuff isn't the way people process stuff. And just because I'm judging this thing doesn't. I mean, that's huge. And what a great lesson to gain from.

Speaker 1:
[40:21] It's helped me, like the use of the word selfish. My therapist is like, let's say self-focused, you know? But like a lot of times we think we're helping people or we think we're speaking some truth into the air. And it's like, that's not at all what's going on with this person. And so getting to see that up close and getting to, you know, my favorite thing is I, when my family and I are like, oh my God, we have to send this to dad. Like he has to watch this. Like we're all so nervous that I was going to feel. I send to my dad, he's like, I love it. Very simply like, that's great, buddy.

Speaker 2:
[40:49] Love it.

Speaker 1:
[40:49] I'm like, wow, that was like, not what I expected you to say. Like it takes this huge weight off my shoulders and like makes me happy that he's like, no, I know. I know what's going on. Like, you know, it wasn't like this, like kids gloves, stay dead, this is how you look. He was like, oh, hell yeah. I look cool, dude. So that was nice.

Speaker 2:
[41:07] That's amazing. That's amazing. And you haven't even had the premiere yet. So I can't imagine how proud he's gonna be. I mean, that moment on the porch, I mean, seeing him choke up and I kind of be like, all right, we're just gonna, you know.

Speaker 1:
[41:17] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[41:18] I mean, that's, he's so proud.

Speaker 1:
[41:20] Man, that's one of the most like, I mean, I remember.

Speaker 2:
[41:22] Tell me about that moment.

Speaker 1:
[41:24] Yeah. I mean, I remember, it's hard for my, I think for me and my dad sometimes to like address these things. And so it's hard to get emotional about it. And so much of me like wants to have that conversation and to like hear him say that he gets it. And I just felt like that was the closest we got. And the fact that it was able to happen for the documentary is amazing. But just for me, that moment was really important. Just like seeing him kind of be like, I know it's complicated and it's hard. And just to feel, to see his pride in me and to see his love for me in that moment. Even after I'm sitting there like critiquing his ability to play the song, which I can regret though. I just feel like such a dick. But I was like, it's like, you know, your dad, you become a little kid again. You're just like, come on, just play the right thing. But just seeing him like get emotional. But just I could see in his eyes like this, this conversation that we haven't really had. But I could see like it happened like between us in that moment, like telepathically almost. And that was like, just really, really, really special for me.

Speaker 2:
[42:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[42:25] Yeah. That was something that I really, really will never forget. And I'm really grateful to people that helped me just documentary for like pushing in a way, like us to these moments into these interactions. Because it's so easy just to drift away and drift through life and just like go home for Thanksgiving or go home and go out to dinner. And a season's already had a great bit about like going to see your parents and like how it's the same thing every time. And you leave and you're like, you're happy to leave. You feel guilty. And I felt that a lot. I'm just like, I feel like I came here and just didn't, we didn't solve or work through anything. We just like work together and that can be beautiful. But sometimes you want more. And like that, those moments with my family, like allowed us to confront a lot of things. It allowed us to have like moments that we'll remember forever.

Speaker 2:
[43:09] It's beautiful, man. Thank you. I can tell it is emotional.

Speaker 1:
[43:12] Yeah, it makes me emotional, man. I just love my family so much, dude. And like getting to be close to them in this way, in this journey has been incredibly complicated for everybody. Like, you know, having my family be really exposed to the world, even just without this documentary, just through my album and through promotion of it and through people coming into connection with where we're from and who we are has been really challenging. And this just felt like a platform for us to kind of like grapple with that together. And even after and like the editing and the conversation about what we wanted to be in the movie, it just allowed us to like heal a little bit, I think. And like, just allowed me to find like peace with a lot of it. And yeah, it's it's crazy, man.

Speaker 2:
[44:01] You've talked so much about today, like kind of we've been weaving this idea of mental health and just how important is to you, the documentary, you speak about it quite openly. Has success made mental health harder in some ways, or has it made it better in some ways?

Speaker 1:
[44:17] It's so hard to say. Like, my mental health challenges weren't going anywhere, whether I became a musician, like a touring, like professional musician or whatever I am. They weren't going anywhere. I would have been interested to see how they manifested. I think it's introduced this lifestyle and this like level of like, like I said, this like self-focused kind of business lifestyle has created a lot of mental health challenges for me, but also has kind of allowed me to confront them in a way that maybe like, if I went to college and went and got a job in an office or somewhere, I could probably more easily not ever deal with it.

Speaker 2:
[44:49] Interesting, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[44:50] So in a lot of ways, I think it's helped me, but it's also introduced a lot of different challenges into my life that you see in the documentary but also just wouldn't be there without music and touring and creative struggle and just all the things that go along with being in this weird industry.

Speaker 2:
[45:05] Yeah. What's your most daily or regular experience from a mental health point of view that you go through?

Speaker 1:
[45:12] I think a lot of it is just self-image and that extends to physical image, but also mental image. I worry that I've just wasted so much time hating who I am, and just being aware of this thing that's happening to me that feels like it's grinding me down sometimes, and knowing that I have this thing, and knowing that it could be better, but it's not right now, that's probably my most, I wake up and I'm like, why do I feel like shit? I'm pissed. It's a beautiful morning, the birds are chirping. It's beautiful outside. Career success aside, I have this lovely little life, and I wish I could wake up and not be miserable for no reason, it feels like sometimes. And being aware of those moments that I just can't feel connected, it's really lonely. And I think that's probably my daily. That's my daily driver, that feeling. I think that feeling escalates and escalates, and it comes to these bigger, more intense episodes for me of mental health. But that's what is the backdrop to my day, is like, darn, I feel like shit. This sucks, and I have to just wade through it every day. And it gets easier, and there's days that are better and worse. But generally, I just kind of am feeling like I wish I didn't feel depressed. You know?

Speaker 2:
[46:29] Yeah. I felt it was really brave for you to address the body dysmorphia image approach. I wasn't expecting that. And I think you kind of really went there. It felt so courageous in one sense to do that, and of course honest.

Speaker 1:
[46:44] Yeah. I feel like I don't know, and I say it in the documentary, I don't know where I fit into the world of this thing I'm going through. I'm never really confronted in a way that's like, and this is how I feel about my body. It's like, it's just this thing that lives in the back of my brain that is more prominent than other times. And it really came out in the documentary, and watching that back, I mean, man, even my mom was just like, I had no idea. I think she knew I had something like that, but she didn't know how much it was affecting me. And even just seeing myself, I'm like, I don't feel like that right now, but I do feel like that a lot. And it's horrible when this thing that you really compartmentalize and you lock away is now there. And so it's scary for me even to talk to you about it, because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I know how much of an issue this is for people and how it can ruin lives and how hard it is for people's mental health, that I'm always so afraid that I don't want to represent an issue because I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing or giving advice or like, I don't know. Of making it feel like I know what I'm talking about because I have no idea. It's just this thing that is there within me. And yeah, really, really difficult concept because it's so tied up in who you are and the feelings you've had since you were a kid that it's hard to describe the body dysmorphia problem succinctly. And I, as you can hear right now, I struggle to do it, but it's complicated, man. And it was easy. I think it's easy to say, like, I want to talk about that. But when it comes time to talk about it, like, I don't feel eloquent at all. I don't feel articulate. I feel like it's just this, like, dreamlike stance that I have to fall into. It's weird.

Speaker 2:
[48:22] Yeah, I think it's a strange challenge that we put on ourselves and other people to properly articulate these extremely nuanced, daily, regular feelings that are, that don't always make sense. Like, in one sense, we're trying to finally package up some perfect words around something that changes how we feel about it daily.

Speaker 1:
[48:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[48:42] And it's almost an impossible task.

Speaker 1:
[48:45] Totally.

Speaker 2:
[48:45] Because you're absolutely right that you can feel something one day, people feel it differently. I just felt like you don't see a lot of men, especially being able to say that publicly. And so I think it's going to help a lot of men and just even come into terms with it. Yeah, man.

Speaker 1:
[49:00] I remember I have this song called The Shape of My Shadow, which was weirdly one of those our moments where I felt really aware and understanding of my struggle with it. And it goes away. But in that moment, I wrote this song and played it live on World Mental Health Day in Florida a few years ago, and was hearing it being heard for the first time, and then walking off stage and having people in my crew and people in my life come up to me and be like, dude, man, especially be like, I go through that too. And that was fucking cool that you did that, bro. I feel that one. And people that I wouldn't expect, I think you think body dysmorphia, and you're physically looking at somebody and like, how do you look? Is this person look overweight? They'll probably connect with their, does this person look really skinny? They'll probably, it's not how it is, man. It's almost not even about your body at all. For me, I don't think it's even about what I actually appear to be, is how we think of ourselves. So these people coming up and saying that to me was like, this is like important. Like this is something really, really difficult to articulate and to talk about. And like the fact that I just had three people that probably wouldn't have said anything to me if I never played that song, come up and say like, hey dude, like thank you or like I get that.

Speaker 2:
[50:14] And that's huge.

Speaker 1:
[50:15] It was really special. I'm an eye opening and it like makes you feel like more sensitive to people. And like you just never know what someone's going through, man.

Speaker 2:
[50:22] Like you really don't.

Speaker 1:
[50:23] And it's easy to like look at somebody and be like, your life must be so sick. And then be like, man, you have no clue.

Speaker 2:
[50:30] Yeah. And you assume that right, if someone's like put together or looks a certain way, or maybe they're making a decent living or whatever it may be. It's like we just go, well, okay, well, you don't have any real problems. So, you know, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[50:42] Oh, it's such a good point, man. I always, whenever I come to LA and do like anything like this, I'm always like, oh yeah, like I got driven here in the black SUV and I'm gonna come here and complain about my shit. Like people in the world right now going through so much, and it does feel like there's a push and pull of like, how do I talk about what I'm going through without like being insensitive to like people who are struggling in much more significant or just different but significant ways, while also not discrediting what I've gone through at the same time. It's been a real challenge for me to talk about. I hope that in the documentary, people can see that through line through everybody's life that regardless of sex, creed, class, gender, identity, race, that people can find things that connect us, like these feelings that are painful. I like to think everybody's experiencing something similar in some way. Maybe that's not true, but that's my hope is that there's world peace, but we all can have a conversation no matter where we're from about our mental health and how it's affecting us, and we can hear similarities in some things. That's what I hope is true because with everything that's going on in the world right now, like how divided the world is and how awful people are being treated right now, that we can find ways to be brought together through vulnerability and through being honest with each other about how we feel.

Speaker 2:
[52:05] Is that how you think about making an impact on the world with everything you see? Is that where you focus?

Speaker 1:
[52:11] I think just trying to be completely honest about how I feel whenever I can. Because then it doesn't feel like you have to perform. And I was talking to somebody last night at this weird party thing. And I was just like, dude, if you start making music, trying to sound like somebody, then when the time comes to you want to be yourself, it's going to feel like you're lying. So if you can just be as honest as you can and accept whatever that does for you socially, career-wise, emotionally, live and die by that. Because then you never have to change and you never have to adjust your presentation. And all you have to do is reach within, which you've been doing forever anyway.

Speaker 2:
[52:49] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[52:49] Yeah, that's-

Speaker 2:
[52:50] Well said.

Speaker 1:
[52:51] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[52:51] Yeah. And I think that's the difference also between actors and musicians. An actor does have to pretend to be someone and that does affect their personality, and it does affect their self-image, and it can deeply affect everything from the way they speak to the way they look or anything.

Speaker 1:
[53:05] Have you done acting? I have not in any major. I wonder if the best actors bring in more of themselves in a way to this different character so that it creates something relatable.

Speaker 2:
[53:17] Yes. I forget what the technique is called from some study that I've done in the space with some clients that I have who are actors and they talk about that. Where it's like, you can't pretend to have an emotion. You've got to find the emotion or the experience within yourself to bring it out. But at the same time, I think a lot of people, especially if you're doing a biopic, you can find the emotion within yourself, but ultimately, you're still becoming someone else to some degree.

Speaker 1:
[53:43] Is there a part of you that feels that way? How do you get comfortable approaching that? It almost reminds me of the music and the documentary. I'm just like, how do you go back into this space over and over again? It's painful, dude. It's gotta be painful because we all have smaller, I think some people have bigger parts of that character than others do. I think we all have cynical parts of us and angry parts of us, but some people just don't have as much access or don't have as big of an angry bone inside of them. But it's got to be hard to have to live in that moment.

Speaker 2:
[54:16] I think that's actually where real compassion comes from. When you can look at your own heart and notice that it has all of these abilities and has aspects of all of these things that you may not live on a daily basis, but you start seeing it and you go, oh, I see how that comes out for someone else, because I've seen that in me, even if it's tiny, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:
[54:38] Totally, man. That's why I always think the goal isn't to be a perfect person at all. The goal is to understand the parts of you that make you happy and try to access those. But it's also important to dip into the stuff that you don't like and to question it and to approach it and look at it. In the documentary, I say, I'm finally looking at this thing. It used to be, talking about bodies more of the mental illness stuff, it used to be this thing that I was ashamed of in such a big way that I wouldn't even want to look at it. I would just sprint past the door where the thing was inside. Now I'm finally just brushing it with my hand. I'm being like, all right, this thing is in there. I'm getting better at approaching and I'm getting better at understanding that it is there and not being so afraid of it. That journey has been helpful for me.

Speaker 2:
[55:28] Yeah, it's almost like the monster under the bed. If you pretend that it's not there, you're scared.

Speaker 1:
[55:34] It just gets bigger.

Speaker 2:
[55:35] Yeah, it just gets bigger and you've got to go and check. And it's like, oh, okay, brushed apart. It's so important. And I think for so long, of course, we want to be in the light. We want to do good work, but you can't avoid the darkness and those elements that exist. As you said, our shame and guilt.

Speaker 1:
[55:49] Yeah, you can. It does find other ways to manifest. And I think it's much healthier to, in my opinion, sitting down with a therapist is the most important thing you can do with these feelings. Expressing them in a safe, unbiased place where you can say whatever you want and not feel like you're gonna be judged for it. Because if you don't, I do feel like we have to find a way to cope and we have to find a way to keep not feeling it. And addiction, for me, eating, binge eating, not eating, is how I deal with a lot of stuff. And I'm realizing that's because I don't talk about it enough. And so I keep wanting it to go away and go away and go away. But then I find myself engaging in these behaviors that really make me unhappy and make me feel even worse. It's this horrible cycle of just like, the thing you think you're doing to help is actually making it harder. And then it just kind of repeats itself and repeats itself. And you do it for so long that the grooves in your brain, there's a little train going through your head that only knows one path. And it gets deeper and deeper and deeper. And it never has a way to go anywhere else because you just have lived this one routine for so long. And so, you know, going to therapy, which I've been doing my whole life, but I feel like I wasn't really doing in a real way until like five or six, seven years ago, where I started to really like go into it.

Speaker 2:
[57:19] What was the difference between going to therapy and then doing therapy?

Speaker 1:
[57:23] Yeah, so like I said, my mom and my dad were always so supportive of me. Am my siblings going to get help and going to talk about our feelings? We've all kind of gone through a lot of similar mental health struggles. Thanks, mom and dad. No, and they've been so supportive and always sent us to therapists, but I think for a while, I was just immature and didn't want to talk to somebody. And also, it's horrible when you're a kid and to be like, oh, this 48-year-old dude is here to ask you about all this stuff. And obviously, you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And you can kind of live your life for a long time, like saying the right things, but not actually really letting anyone hear anything. And saying things that sound like you're being emotionally vulnerable or picking and choosing different things that you'll talk about and certain things that you won't talk about. And it's all connected. So when you start doing that, you're actually not really touching the whole thing, which is, it's all connected to like one larger mental health thing. Doesn't sound very eloquent, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is I didn't really commit myself to getting better because I wanted to selfishly, self-centeredly do it on my own and only like express certain fears and emotions to people because I was still afraid of talking about them. And I think when I started seeing this new therapist, and so much of it is about the person you see. So I've had bad experiences with therapists and once you open up to somebody and they don't respect that, it becomes really hard to go talk to somebody else. It's like you open up to a friend and like, it's like a breakup. Yeah. And then someone uses that against you or they laugh at you or they make you feel crazy. It's not like, okay, I'll try to the next person. It's like, no, I'm never touching that again.

Speaker 2:
[59:01] Yeah. You're carrying that.

Speaker 1:
[59:02] It's like a breakup. You hurt me and I'm not opening myself up again. So it was kind of being willing to open up again, finding the right person and then feeling safe. And then slowly just realizing how much more there was than the kind of headlines of what I thought my feelings and issues were. And being asked questions that maybe dig a little deeper and being willing to cry and say, I don't want to talk about this. And what was really complicated for me, and what's still complicated is like, and I do say this in the documentary, is being a mental health advocate, having this mental health charity, which we're also proud of.

Speaker 2:
[59:39] That's beautiful, really beautiful.

Speaker 1:
[59:40] Thank you. And presenting myself as someone that has an answer or has a focus and is gonna be really open and emotionally vulnerable all the time and then not feeling like I was really practicing that in my personal life, it makes it hard in therapy to accept that I don't have all the answers. And it kind of creates this feeling like you're not being honest about who you are. And that was really difficult.

Speaker 2:
[60:01] What's the best question your therapist ever asked you?

Speaker 1:
[60:05] I think it's like, do you want this to be what's happening to you? And in some ways, is it so much easier for you to cause yourself pain and to hurt yourself? And is that actually something that is bringing you comfort? Is this pain that you're inflecting on yourself emotionally, occasionally physically? Is it actually something that you have become comfortable with? Is it this long time friend of yours that you don't want to leave because you feel like you're betraying something and betraying this childhood pain or whatever it is? That was a great question and made me think about it, because I think I've always been like, I hate this thing. I want to get rid of this, but sometimes I'm like, no, I don't. And she's like, I don't know if you do. I don't know if you do, do you? Because it feels like you want the comfort of this thing you've had for a long time. And it's become such a big part of your life that you don't know who you are without it. And it's scarier to be someone that's happy, but not familiar with something than to be unhappy, but feel like you're in the safety of your own unhappiness. Oh, that sounded great.

Speaker 2:
[61:11] You saw my reaction. Damn, dude.

Speaker 1:
[61:14] I put that in the song. But that was like the most important thing I think she's asked me. And she's asked me, she's just so wonderful. I hope my therapist isn't watching this, but thank you so much. But that question really helped me understand the context of what I was really feeling.

Speaker 2:
[61:30] Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I think a lot of people get a lot from asking that question to themselves or hopefully going through that with their therapist. I think you said in the 2024 Grammy Party, you were like talking about parties earlier. You were saying, you felt like the least cool guy there. And it was like, that was the feeling you were having at that time. And that goes back to that image and grappling with that emotion. And is there a bit more peace now? Because that was your first time being there, right? It was like your nominate. Like, do you think that is natural when you're doing something new and first time, and then it goes away? Like, what's your...

Speaker 1:
[62:01] Yeah, absolutely. I think like, I think I really like wanted the experience to be what I'd always dreamed of, because I'd always dreamed of that experience. And so, like, I got in there, and the vision of, like, what I thought I was going to feel and what I thought it was going to look like, like, just wasn't what it was. And I just kind of felt, like, outside of all of it. And it wasn't anyone's fault. It was really just me not having the confidence to, like, engage with this new experience and wanted to be comfortable. And so I felt really isolated. And then my mom is, like, talking to everybody, and she, everyone loves her. And, like, I'm like, damn, my mom's so cool. And I'm just sitting here. My mom and Brandi Carlisle are talking, and, like, my mom loves Brandi. And, like, I just kind of felt, like, the kid in the cafeteria that, like, didn't have anyone to sit with. And just knowing that, like, the end of the night, the only, like, measure of success I was putting into the night was if I won this Grammy or not. Because I had built this thing up, it would be so important to me. And so it kind of made me feel like I had no purpose in the room. I had felt like my purpose was no longer needed. And that was no one's fault. And it was on me for putting all the stock into this award. But I didn't feel cool. And then I lost, along with many others, who I'm always curious to see how they would deal with it. Because I was so sad, and I was obviously happy for the person I won, truly, and grateful that I was even nominated. And just walking into a room full of people who I was so worried were gonna be disappointed, and not mad at me, but almost their experience was that they wanted me to win. I was projecting how I thought everyone wanted this night to go. And so walking into the room with my family, my friends, my wife, all these people on my team who had worked so hard, and just feeling the disappointment just really made me feel like I was on an island, and that I had let everybody down in my life. And I feel like I let my fans down. I was like, I wanted this so bad.

Speaker 2:
[63:52] I'm sorry, guys. We wanted it for you, too, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[63:54] Yeah, I think they did, man. I know that's not the case, but this time it's like, I feel like I've gone through so much since then, and reevaluating what I care about, and realizing that what I care most about is the story that I can tell with my music, and the music that I can make, and that no one can take it away from me, no one can vote on it, and no one else can have it, and nurturing this thing. And so coming back, having a new album, feeling like I'm really excited about it, really proud of it, proud of the journey that I went on to get to making this album, which was really difficult. And that's where my confidence is coming from right now. Not from whether I have good songs or not, but just knowing that I went through something and I'm on the other side now. When I was at the 24 Grammys, I was grappling with all this creative insecurity, this insecurity about where my career was going to go. And I thought that a Grammy was going to like, like that like thing on, the image you see on like, like a meme or whatever, where like the guy puts like one piece of duct tape on the giant exploding water tank. Like I think that was what I was hoping the Grammy would be for me.

Speaker 2:
[64:56] That's good, that's really good.

Speaker 1:
[64:58] And like it was never going to be that anyways. And so like knowing that now makes me more like at peace with just like being able to be in this conversation, being able to be amongst the peers that I have that are incredible musicians. And yeah, I feel, I don't feel cooler, but I feel more comfortable in like my own skin and my own presence.

Speaker 2:
[65:17] Yeah, I really appreciate the way you process that for us, because I think 99% of us are always dealing with situations where we felt like we lost or failed. But it seems like you've addressed a really powerful pattern that I think has come up a few times in that when you're watching the documentary with your father, you're like, wait, what's his experience of it? And even now when you're talking about being at the Grammys, you're like, what's everyone else's expectation of it? And it seems like you've really addressed like a really powerful pattern of something that seems to come up for you, which is always projecting what you think other people's experiences. And that's really powerful that you can see that as being a sign of whenever you're doing something big or incredible.

Speaker 1:
[65:54] Bro, projection is like so difficult because it forces you to question everything you've thought about other people's perception of you. And also, as my career has grown, you saw it today, I'm most lovely f***ing people around me in the world.

Speaker 2:
[66:10] They're wonderful.

Speaker 1:
[66:10] Amazing. I love you too. Every single person that I get to work with is awesome. And that's very rare, especially in the music industry where you get people that are there for the wrong reasons or whatever. But whenever you go, you have style and hair and PR and management and label and whatever, agent and all these people around you, you kind of feel like they need it to go well. That's a projection. And so you start being like, are you guys having fun? Are you guys enjoying this? Did I do good enough for you guys?

Speaker 2:
[66:40] It's like dad energy and kid energy at the same time.

Speaker 1:
[66:42] Totally, dude. I think it all ties back to that thing around the dinner table and wanting to be heard and wanting to be accepted and wanting people to think that you have value. And when you can't find that in here in your heart or in your brain, you needed to be provided by other people. And I'm struggling with that right now, just with my album coming out and just how I'm going to take in responses to it, good and bad. I think every good comment and every bad comment have a similar reaction from me, actually. They move me so much. If someone says that I did a good job, I'm like, yeah, I'm good. If someone says that I suck, I'm like, I suck. I want to find somewhere in the middle where I can still have my own belief on myself. Equilibrium is a great way to put it. I would love to find more of that in my life.

Speaker 2:
[67:30] Yeah. And it's such a hard place to live because we are so used to being really pumped up with the highs. And I always feel like the more pumped up you get with the highs, the more pulled down you get with the lows. And that's the experience we all have. And all I can say is, honestly, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this with your team listening, but I listened to what you did send us with the team, with my team, because everyone's a fan and everyone loved it. And I was just like, this is like, you know, yeah, exactly. And it was genuinely that experience where we were listening to it. And because as I was thinking about the interview, I was thinking about like, I know no one's really thinking about this. I mean, for whatever it's worth. And I think that equilibrium is what we all need to rise for. It's something I pursued deeply and focus on. And I found it was only when I could detach equally from the good and the bad. And it was like, if I kept letting the good pump me up, the bad was always going to hit me. And so I had to find it. And it wasn't rejecting the good, because that also didn't work. Because for a while, I tried to like, reject good.

Speaker 1:
[68:29] I was going to ask, how do you do it?

Speaker 2:
[68:30] Yeah, if someone was like, well, I'm still working on it too. I haven't fully figured it out, but I feel like I'm getting closer all the time. So in the beginning, I was like, same as what you're saying. Someone says something good, amazing. If someone says something bad, I feel sad. Then I did the opposite, where I was rejecting both. So if someone said something good, I'd be like, oh, whatever, like, I don't need to know. And if someone says something bad, I'd be like, oh, I don't need to know.

Speaker 1:
[68:49] That's the part I'm at now.

Speaker 2:
[68:50] Yeah. And I was like, that doesn't work either because now, and then what I started to realize was I allowed the good to go in deeper and I allowed the bad to almost be filtered more clearer. And what I mean by that is instead of the good going to my head and my ego and that kind of like arrogance, it was going to my heart as fuel for like, this is why I do what I do. So if someone said to me like, hey, your work, would you like your work help me to save my marriage or not commit suicide or whatever it is. I was like, oh, let me really access that. Like don't just take it as like this buzz. Yeah, it's like take it where it lands. And then when you get feedback or you get the bad, it's like, oh, let me not take that to my heart and let me actually allow that to be like, or let me get the clarity of what could I improve or what could I work on.

Speaker 1:
[69:41] It's so complicated, man, but so smart what you just said.

Speaker 2:
[69:43] It's subtle, it's very subtle, but it's helping at least. I'm not saying it's the end. I think there's multiple layers to it.

Speaker 1:
[69:49] Can I ask you more about that?

Speaker 2:
[69:50] Of course.

Speaker 1:
[69:50] Sorry to interrupt you.

Speaker 2:
[69:51] No, no, no, go on.

Speaker 1:
[69:52] Like letting the good in, and I totally feel that, cause I think I've started to do that as well. It's like, this isn't just like a dopamine hit. Like I'm not putting a zit in my mouth right now. This is like, there's something there that's important that I have to internalize to help me do it again and do more of it and to kind of hone in on that specific thing. But how when someone says something hurtful to you, or like, I guess it's like hate versus criticism are two different conversations. But like, when someone says something hurtful to you, like how are you taking that in? How do you let that in? Cause it just like, it can like sits in my stomach and like makes me feel like shit.

Speaker 2:
[70:25] Oh yeah, I can relate. I can't fully relate. It's the worst. I think what I've tried to do is to try and separate, if possible and not everything is right. It's like, if you've got muddy water, there's mud and water. And my job is to get the water and remove the mud so that I can give drinking water to myself and the people I love.

Speaker 1:
[70:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[70:48] And so my job is to be a sieve or a filter to be able to go, all right, let me take the mud out, which is the sting, the pain, the hurt, the ego, the arrogance, and see if there's any water left for me to hold.

Speaker 1:
[71:01] Right.

Speaker 2:
[71:02] And if there is, then that water will actually rest quite beautifully and perfectly. And now I don't have to take it in. It's something I just have to hold and make space for, but I'm not going to hold on to the mud and the sting and the arrow because that's the part that pierces through us and breaks us down.

Speaker 1:
[71:18] That's really, really beautiful.

Speaker 2:
[71:20] Yeah. And it takes practice. Like, I'm not saying I do it all the time, and I'm not saying I don't fail at this all the time, but it's like, I think that practice has been really helpful because accepting both didn't work, rejecting both didn't work. And the Buddha always talked about the middle path. And it's always like, if you're going to hold something, don't hold it too tight, but then you can't hold it too loosely. So it's like, how do you hold something just beautifully? It's almost like how you'd hold your wife's hand.

Speaker 1:
[71:42] I don't want to go from Buddha to golf, but golf, it's like, you want to have like a bird in your hand that you're not going to crush, but you won't get away.

Speaker 2:
[71:48] That's a Buddha analogy. That's actually, that's actually fun.

Speaker 1:
[71:51] We got to get you on the golf course.

Speaker 2:
[71:53] But dude, if you're holding your wife's hand, you're not going to squish it, whereas she never wants, like, you're like, oh, you're never going to leave, but you're never going to hold it softly where you don't have any affection. And it's like, how would you, I feel like holding my wife's hand is like a good.

Speaker 1:
[72:06] That's a really good analogy. I mean, that's a really brilliant way to do it. I have like really struggled to accept criticism and like, and I mean, any like hate or anything like that.

Speaker 2:
[72:17] Dude, me too. And I think there is a difference.

Speaker 1:
[72:18] There's a difference.

Speaker 2:
[72:19] I think you have to.

Speaker 1:
[72:19] There's some shit that's like, oh, you know, like there's some stuff that's like that. But even criticism can be hard. Like take it so hard and like.

Speaker 2:
[72:27] And I think it's hard because we don't deeply receive in the heart the good. It's kind of because it's just the dopamine.

Speaker 1:
[72:33] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[72:33] So it's like we deeply receive the bad.

Speaker 1:
[72:35] That's so true. It's like that's all I actually feel, right?

Speaker 2:
[72:38] Literally.

Speaker 1:
[72:38] I think that's why we like, sometimes I watch like these horror movies and I'm like, oh man, I hate the part where they're all like happy in the beginning. I'm like, get to the part where they're all getting chopped up. You know, that's like what that's this thing inside of us that like.

Speaker 2:
[72:49] Dopamine.

Speaker 1:
[72:49] That feels more like for some people, or for me, it feels more like that's the stuff that reaches you more. It's painful and scary. Yes. I'm not a psycho. But dude, that's really, really eye opening for me. And I want so bad to work on that. And work on accepting the good too. And I'm like, I'm a rejecter of the good a lot of the times, because it's like the superstition of like, have I let any good in, then like, then it'll all go away because I need to be, like I said, like I need to be in pain. But there's got to be a way, like you said, to like to take it without it killing me, but with also like in a way that I can take the lesson away from it.

Speaker 2:
[73:25] I love that man. Noah, you've been amazing today, like truly.

Speaker 1:
[73:44] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[73:45] I feel like you're the easiest guy to talk to, you're like so much fun to hang with. I'm like, I hope we get to do this offline, but-

Speaker 1:
[73:51] Me too, man.

Speaker 2:
[73:52] We end every episode with a couple of segments that I wanna take you through. These are fun because you're such a fun, loving guy. So now-

Speaker 1:
[73:58] Before you go, though, I wanna say thank you, man, because getting to talk about this kind of stuff in this way is not common for me. And so it really means a lot in listening to you care about the questions you're asking and the responses. Just for me, it's been really cool. I've listened to your show and everyone says, this dude is the man and you are awesome. And your intention into the world for what you're doing is really, really special and right now I need it more than ever. So thank you, dude. For real, you're the shit. I would say this off camera, I'll say it on camera. You are awesome, bro. Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[74:30] Oh man, that really touched my heart. Thank you for saying that. I mean it, dude. I'm practicing what I said earlier, which is really allowing that-

Speaker 1:
[74:37] And then I'll say something shitty to you.

Speaker 2:
[74:40] Yeah, and then I'm going to try and figure that out.

Speaker 1:
[74:43] Nah man, thank you, bro.

Speaker 2:
[74:44] It's been sick. Honestly, that means the world to me coming from you. And this is like, this hasn't even felt like an interview. I feel like you've just been, like, honestly, like those are my favorite conversations, where I feel like we've just been talking, and I can talk to you for another few hours.

Speaker 1:
[74:56] I was like, I know, it's over, bro.

Speaker 2:
[74:58] I can keep going. I just want to be mindful of your time. These are some fun segments, because you're such a fun, loving guy to end with. And I was like, yeah, this guy's music is so deep, but he's just such a good time. So all right, these are two little games that we got. And then we have a final five that we do with every guest. If you've listened, you would know. This is called Would You Rather. Wave back at someone who wasn't waving at you, or tell your server at a restaurant, you too, after they tell you, enjoy your meal.

Speaker 1:
[75:25] Dude, there's nothing in the world worse than waving at someone that doesn't wave back at you, bro. It's got to be the server one, because they walk right away. The wave one, they're like, they're going to see that for a few seconds as they pass you.

Speaker 2:
[75:35] That's worse?

Speaker 1:
[75:36] Oh yeah, way worse.

Speaker 2:
[75:36] Okay. Trip and fall on stage at one of your concerts, or forget the lyrics to your song while performing on national TV?

Speaker 1:
[75:43] I've tripped and fallen so many times, that people are almost expecting it. So I'd say tripping and falling, forgetting where's national TV.

Speaker 2:
[75:50] You just pop right back up.

Speaker 1:
[75:51] You just got to get back up and go, dude.

Speaker 2:
[75:54] That's amazing. Be extremely self-aware or completely oblivious?

Speaker 1:
[75:58] You're just talking about this. I want to say be completely oblivious, but it would kind of spit in the face the conversation we just had. I'd say be completely self-aware because there's always room to... You can make yourself a little bit more oblivious if you want to.

Speaker 2:
[76:11] Yeah. Send a text by accident to the person you're talking about or accidentally like a really old photo while stalking them on Instagram.

Speaker 1:
[76:20] Oh, it's so tough because the text one could be terrible depending on what you're saying. But liking the old photo is like crazy. Like I've had that happen to me, obviously, and people are like, dude, what are you doing? The amount of times you must have scrolled to get to that photo. I think sending a text by accident, but those are both bad things.

Speaker 2:
[76:34] They're both bad, yeah. Your dog can talk and has a very strong personality that clashes with yours. Or your dog can't talk, but they don't really like you.

Speaker 1:
[76:43] That's what I already have, dude. I have German Shepherds who look at me, they're just like, yeah, you're going to play video games again. Another spliff? Great. I think probably dogs, they don't like me because I can convince myself that they're just like look mean.

Speaker 2:
[76:56] I love it. Play around with Tiger Woods, but you accidentally hit him with the ball on the very first hole or play the best game of your life at a fancy country club, but you're alone and can never tell a soul how good your game was.

Speaker 1:
[77:08] Oh, dude. These are really hard.

Speaker 2:
[77:10] They're very hard.

Speaker 1:
[77:11] I think I would probably curl up into a ball and die if I hit Tiger Woods with a golf ball. I think I'd have to just play by myself and play well, which doesn't happen to me anyway, so perfect.

Speaker 2:
[77:20] So it's not really a choice?

Speaker 1:
[77:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[77:21] All right. So this game is called Gut Reaction. Noah, just complete the sentence. My favorite compliment to receive is?

Speaker 1:
[77:29] I love your shoes. I love getting a compliment in my shoes.

Speaker 2:
[77:31] I was actually going to ask you where your shoes are from when you walked in today, and I waited, because I was like, I need a pair of those.

Speaker 1:
[77:35] It's happening.

Speaker 2:
[77:36] It's happening. It's happening. I was genuinely going to ask you.

Speaker 1:
[77:39] I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[77:39] I've been wondering if I'd choose those laces for a while.

Speaker 1:
[77:42] Yeah, these kind of laces are nice.

Speaker 2:
[77:43] Yeah. Yeah. I want, yeah. All right, we'll talk about shoes later. My guilty pleasure artist or song is?

Speaker 1:
[77:49] Oh, Send Me On My Way, Rusted Root.

Speaker 2:
[77:51] Okay. All right. The most unhinged thought I've had this week was?

Speaker 1:
[77:56] Oh, dude, I was driving, and I always had this untrusive thought where I was like, it's probably like some OCD shit, but I was like, I could just like swerve to that lane and just like everything up, bro. Like everything.

Speaker 2:
[78:06] I've had that thought before.

Speaker 1:
[78:07] Isn't it crazy?

Speaker 2:
[78:08] It's so crazy. I mean, you're like, wait a minute, why did my brain go there?

Speaker 1:
[78:10] You're like, oh, Jesus Christ. Then I'm like rearranging my hands to make sure I'm like very much staying on my own lane. But yeah, that's probably my craziest one.

Speaker 2:
[78:17] The hill I will die on for no reason is?

Speaker 1:
[78:19] Mac and cheese is just like not very good. I think it's like a pretty creatively boring dish, like literally just wheat and cheese melted. Like I feel like Caveman probably was the first person to make mac and cheese, and I think people go a little too crazy for it. People get too excited. They make it in such large quantities as well.

Speaker 2:
[78:36] You and my wife would have a big debate over that.

Speaker 1:
[78:38] People really don't like when I say that.

Speaker 2:
[78:39] Yeah, you and my wife would. The weirdest place I've written a song is?

Speaker 1:
[78:43] I wrote a song in the bathroom of JFK one time, which was crazy. Yeah, I think I was hungover and it just came to me and I was like, this would be a fun story to tell if I finish this song in there. I wrote a whole song on my phone. It hasn't come out, but if it ever does, that'll be a fun one to tell.

Speaker 2:
[78:59] Okay, so it's not out yet.

Speaker 1:
[79:00] Yeah, we're a little taking a shit, brother. That's what it's going to be called.

Speaker 2:
[79:05] One thing my wife makes fun of me for is?

Speaker 1:
[79:10] I like to just sit there and we get these big bags of Tootsie Roll, mini Tootsie Roll pops, and I'll sit there and one bite, just crunch the entire thing. I'll do like 50 in a row. She calls it crunch time. And it's just hilarious because you just hear my teeth like shattering against the lollipops and she's like, I think she just hates it. I don't think she makes fun of it as much, but that's a weird thing that I do around my wife.

Speaker 2:
[79:29] Do you do it on purpose now?

Speaker 1:
[79:30] I just love it, dude. I can't, I don't have the patience to like lick it or whatever, I'm just like, like in my teeth, my incisors, dude, they just destroy that thing.

Speaker 2:
[79:37] That's amazing. All right, which fellow music star would you call to help you bury a dead body?

Speaker 1:
[79:44] I'm calling my buddy Nile Horn. I think he would do it with me.

Speaker 2:
[79:47] Nice, all right. That's a good, that was quick. You were like, now would do it.

Speaker 1:
[79:52] He owes me one.

Speaker 2:
[79:53] And the last one of these for Gut Reaction, first artist you'd want next to you on a long bus tour ride?

Speaker 1:
[80:00] Oh, my God. My buddy Corey Harper. Awesome singer-songwriter, one of my best friends in the world, and just like the funniest man alive, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[80:08] Amazing. Gut Reaction, you were good. That was great.

Speaker 1:
[80:10] That was fun, those were good questions.

Speaker 2:
[80:12] You were really impressive. All right, Final Five, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence. Usually one sentence. First question, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1:
[80:24] Be where your feet are.

Speaker 2:
[80:25] Great. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Speaker 1:
[80:30] Play it safe.

Speaker 2:
[80:31] Yeah. Question number three, what's something you used to value that you don't anymore?

Speaker 1:
[80:36] I don't value my physical appearance as much as I used to.

Speaker 2:
[80:40] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[80:40] Yeah. Which I could expand.

Speaker 2:
[80:42] Yeah, please.

Speaker 1:
[80:42] I can? I only got one sentence.

Speaker 2:
[80:44] No, I want you to.

Speaker 1:
[80:45] It took me a long time to be comfortable with the way I looked, like my face, the way I look. And while I want to be healthy and I want to have a better body image, I don't need people to think I'm attractive. And that's been a cool thing to just kind of get to be myself.

Speaker 2:
[80:57] That sounds really freeing.

Speaker 1:
[80:58] Yeah, it's dope.

Speaker 2:
[80:59] Yeah, that's awesome, man. I love hearing that. Question number four, what's something that you didn't value that you value now?

Speaker 1:
[81:05] My time. I value my time more than I ever have. I always wanted to grind so hard and like be the dog that just like works as hard or harder than anybody else. And now I'm like so much like this is my time. I'm going to do what makes me feel good in this moment instead of like feeling like I need to be doing a million things.

Speaker 2:
[81:25] I love that. And fifth and final question, we asked this to every guest on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Speaker 1:
[81:34] That's a great question. I was going to say using your blinker when you turn, but that's actually already a law and people just don't follow it.

Speaker 2:
[81:41] That's a great answer.

Speaker 1:
[81:42] If I could create one law, you are not legally allowed to post videos of fireworks. Like I'm so tired of seeing people post videos of like, Fourth of July. I'm like, dude, that looks horrible. No one sees what you're trying to look at. You're laughing, your hands are shaking. Like just enjoy the fireworks, dude.

Speaker 2:
[81:59] That's it. That's brilliant. That is hilarious. We've never had that in the history of the show. That is a great answer.

Speaker 1:
[82:06] I might need to start petitioning for that to become a real law.

Speaker 2:
[82:08] I love it. Noah, you are such a good term. I hope you genuinely felt seen and heard today on the show. I hope you felt you got to share in a safe space where you're going through.

Speaker 1:
[82:18] Really did, man.

Speaker 2:
[82:19] And I long may this continue. I hope you'll come back. I hope we'll do a lot more of this.

Speaker 1:
[82:23] Dude, totally. And yeah, let's go play pickleball or something sometime. I'd love to hang out with you outside of it. And I appreciate being on the show. It's a really cool experience and very helpful. And hopefully people hear this. And yeah, like we both want to feel heard. So thank you, man.

Speaker 2:
[82:37] Thank you, man. Thank you. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin. Follow your own inner guide. It directs us.

Speaker 1:
[82:49] It might not make sense to us.

Speaker 2:
[82:52] Might not make sense to anyone else. Certainly won't make sense to anyone else. And that's okay. It's fine.