transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:01] There was an age in which the gods were dwelling on earth, among men, and those beings came from somewhere. The human species was originally created, designed, intended to be a member of the divine family.

Speaker 2:
[00:25] This is an archetypal myth that cuts across a lot of regions and cultures.

Speaker 1:
[00:30] It's universal.

Speaker 2:
[00:33] So we have these watchers that came down. They were extraterrestrial. They mated with man. They created Nephilim. And then we have evidence that a lot of this actually holds astronomical weight in the ancient world.

Speaker 1:
[00:45] There are ruins of an ancient civilization on the planet Mars, specifically in the region of Sidonia. And this, what's so fascinating about this, is that the ancients believed that the gods descended from Mars. We can understand the modern phenomenon in light in the Book of Enoch.

Speaker 2:
[01:02] Hearing about the Book of Enoch, and it sounds a lot like Prometheus, where you have titans who try to give mankind sacred knowledge.

Speaker 1:
[01:11] So these were very, very intelligent beings, probably in possession of what I would describe as advanced aerospace technology. I myself have seen a UFO right above my car. And this thing just descended and just hovered there like I was supposed to see it. That is some top secret.

Speaker 2:
[01:29] Speaking of evidence of Nephilim and this whole narrative, you're one of the few people who has gone deep on this phenomena of giants.

Speaker 1:
[01:38] The story that has since become known as the Kandahar Giant. This is where it begins. He was a cargo pilot, and he would describe these missions as classified. And one day he's flying in there. They said, this never happened. No pictures, don't ever talk about it. He sees a forklift bringing over an air cargo pallet, and there's something on it. And he said the first thing that hit him was the odor, like BO and death. The hair of this being was red, the skin was pale. He said it had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot. And he said this thing was solid as a rock. So you can imagine, let's say it was 12 feet tall, the whole thing weighed 1,100 pounds.

Speaker 2:
[02:20] That's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1:
[02:21] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[02:22] Yeah. As you know, we have a new starship. Of course, we have a health care center on board. Ask what my new favorite product in it is. IrisStore's Illumina Face Mask. Some billionaires are rejuvenating in underground light pods. I'm doing my own version in my living room. This mask is like a med bed for your face. It's lightweight, super convenient, cordless, and runs red, blue, and infrared light therapy all at once. The same type of technology NASA studied for skin healing in space. It's safe for your eyes, too, so you don't have to sit there like a statue. You can live your life. I wear it when I'm reading, meal prepping, or investigating life's mysteries without feeling like I'm staring into the sun. Ten minutes of light and my skin looks and feels so good. Finding red light therapy was a revelation for me. I've definitely had a few late nights reading about magnetic pole shifts. But with this mask, I look like I actually slept. Did I? That's debatable. It's warm, wireless, convenient, and makes your skin feel super soft. And iRestore is kicking off their spring savings with some very big discounts. Right now, you can get the Elite Plus Illumina face mask bundle at an exclusive deal when you use code jesse at irestore.com. That's jesse, J-E-S-S-E, at irestore.com. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. I don't know exactly what AG1 is doing in my body. But, I do know that my microtubules are online. I'm not saying I can feel the force, but my chakras have definitely auto-aligned. In fact, I used to think I had 7 chakras, just like everybody else. And then I drink AG1. Now I have 50. Just kidding. But I did used to wake up feeling stiff and groggy like my brain's on airplane mode. And then I started one habit. One scoop in 8 ounces of water. It's a multivitamin, a prebiotic, a probiotic, and with its adaptogens, it's the only green powder I'd ever bring to a skiff. Shout out Chris Ramsey. I take this in the morning and it's the easiest upgrade I've ever made. My favorite flavor is berry, but honestly, they're all good. AG1 has over 50,000 verified 5-star reviews and comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee. Go to drinkag1.com/alchemy to get their best offer and get three free AG1 travel packs plus free vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1's welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's drinkag1.com/alchemy. Again, that's drinkag1.com/alchemy. We're linking that in the description. Thank you so much to AG1 for sponsoring today's episode. I'm here with Timothy Alberino, and I could not be more excited to speak with you. I have been just going through all your stuff, all your podcasts, your book, your amazing book called Birthright, which is really awesome because I think people in this space, it's always an anecdotal story that's really crazy and interesting. You have a lot of those anecdotal stories. I want to talk to you about the Peruvian face peelers. I want to talk to you about the giants of Kandahar, all of these amazing things that you cover. You're this modern larger-than-life adventurer. But you also are, I think, a really impressive philosopher and sense maker, and you do such a great job in this book, Birthright, which I recommend people get in reconciling the whole alien NHI phenomena, which is now all the rage with the modern disclosure movement, but with ancient traditions and with the Bible and Plato and the Book of Enoch, which is where I want to start this conversation. So I appreciate what you're doing. I think it's really cool. What does the Book of Enoch hold in terms of relevance for our life and our world today?

Speaker 1:
[06:47] Enoch provides the foundation for Hebrew cosmology, as it pertains to the Antediluvian world. So you cannot separate what I call the Anakian narrative or the Anakic tradition. You cannot separate that out from the Biblical narrative. It is fundamental to how the ancient Hebrews view the Antediluvian world, the world before the flood. And not only is it the ancient Hebraic view, it's the view of our antecedents across the board. The ancient Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, the Greeks, the Romans, they all viewed the Antediluvian world in a particular way, namely that it was a time of great learning. It's a time when the fundamentals of civilization were imparted to mankind from extraterrestrial entities. And in the pagan world, and pagan just means everybody but the Hebrews, in the pagan world, this was known as the Golden Age, or Zeptepe to the ancient Egyptians. And it was a time when the gods co-mingled with mankind, literally. They procreated with human women. They progenerated a race of hybrid demigods in the earth. In many accounts, these demigods were giants, such as in the biblical account and the ancient Mesopotamian account, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh himself was a giant. And so these traditions are ubiquitous across the earth. And this is how civilization began in the minds of our antecedents. Again, whether it be the Hebrew account, the Judeo-Christian account, or the pagan accounts. Now, among the Jews, there was no greater prophet and scribe. And these are important terms, prophet and scribe, than Enoch. Enoch was the greatest pre-flood patriarch. He was revered above all others. And the Bible says very little about Enoch. It says that he walked with God for 365 years, and then God took him. And that's pretty much all the Bible says of Enoch. And there's a couple of references in the New Testament. But it always was strange to me as I was a teenager thinking and reading the scant information provided in the Biblical text concerning Enoch, who clearly was the greatest pre-flood patriarchy. The Bible has much to say about its other prophets and scribes. The Bible says a whole lot about Moses. It says a whole lot about Elijah. It says a whole lot about Noah. It says almost nothing about Enoch. And it occurred to me when I was probably, I think I was 16 years old. I just had gotten my driver's license and my father was a pastor. So I grew up in a very, very good home. I had a very, very good upbringing. My dad was an excellent father and pastor. And I had a wonderful mother. My mother died when I was 14. But I remember when I was 16 years old, I drove to borders. That's the one that went out of business, right? Borders.

Speaker 2:
[10:14] Yeah, Borders Bookstore.

Speaker 1:
[10:15] I drove to a Borders Bookstore. And I remember I was perusing the aisles, just sort of wanted to buy a book. And I was particularly interested in the pseudepigrapha. And I pulled the pseudepigrapha off the shelf. It was this big, ancient looking book that they had there in Borders. And I was most interested in the Book of Enoch. I'd heard about the Book of Enoch and I didn't really know what it was. And so I remember pulling it off the shelf and sitting down on a bench in Borders and opening it up and sort of skimming through the Book of Enoch. I was instantly captivated. And I bought it and I took it home. And that sort of began my fascination with the anti-deluvian world. Because what the Book of Enoch does is it provides, as I said earlier, it provides the foundation of Hebrew cosmology in regard to the anti-deluvian world. And I remember reading, when I was a teenager, reading the verses in Genesis 6, those enigmatic verses inscribed in Genesis 6 about the sons of God, who saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful. And they came down and they took wives of all whom they chose. And they copulated with these women and progenerated a race of giants in the earth called the Nephilim. But that was it. Just a little footnote. It is a bizarre digression in the Genesis narrative. And this precedes the flood. The next chapter is the flood. And then you get to the New Testament, and you see Peter referencing the angels who sinned, and as a result are chained in the gloomy abyss, Tartarus. Jude takes verbatim from the Book of Enoch. He copies and pastes into his epistle a few verses straight out of 1st Enoch. And it comes from the Book of the Watchers. And the Book of the Watchers in 1st Enoch is the story of the descent of these beings, of these heavenly beings, these celestial beings. And you realize when you read the Book of Enoch that the reference in Genesis 6 is an abridged version. It's just an abridged, it's a cliff note basically of a story that was clearly already well known by the audience. So the author of Genesis, when he inserts into Genesis 6, again this bizarre digression of the Genesis narrative about these heavenly beings, the sons of God who descend and co-mingle with the daughters of men and copulate with them. The reason he doesn't expand on that story is because it was already well known from oral tradition, but I also think from written tradition, namely, The Book of Enoch or some version of The Book of Enoch. So the story was already so well known to the audience that the writer of Genesis, whether it was Moses or someone else, didn't need to retrace the details of this story. It was so well known. It was so essential to the fabric of their cosmology. Indeed, The Book of Enoch lays out this story. So what does it say? The Book of Enoch says that in the days of Jared, who was the sixth from Adam, Jared was the father of Enoch, that these heavenly beings, which the Book of Enoch denominates as Watchers, and the Watcher denomination is not exclusive to extra biblical texts. It's in the Bible. It's in the Book of Daniel. That these beings called the Watchers, 200 of them, decided that they were going to descend to the earth, or maybe they were already on the earth, but that they were going to, they wanted to take wives from the daughters of men. And they wanted to wed the maidens, these daughters of Adam, because they were beautiful. And they wanted to procreate with them. And they wanted to essentially to make families, to sire offspring. And these Watchers knew, these 200 Watchers knew that this was a grave transgression. And so before they did this thing, they bound themselves on the summit of Mount Hermon. According to the Book of Enoch, they descended on the summit of Mount Hermon. And they bound themselves by an oath of mutual imprecations. In other words, we're all in this together, and we're all going to suffer the consequences whatever befall. So they bind themselves with an oath. And that's why to this day, Mount Hermon is known as the Mountain of Oath. And so after binding themselves by an oath of mutual imprecations, they descend into the plains, they choose for themselves wives, and then they make a transaction. I believe with the fathers of these maidens, a dowry of sorts is paid. They provide, the fathers provide their daughter's hand in marriage, the maidens. And the watchers in turn, as a dowry, remember this is a very patriarchal society in the pre-flood world. The fathers give their daughter's hand away. It's not like today where it's mutual agreement, let's get married in the anti-Diluvian world and even in the ancient post-Diluvian world. And still is the case in some parts of the earth. The father gives the daughter's hand in marriage, in exchange for something, a dowry. And so the watchers receive the daughter's hands in marriage from the fathers, and they in turn gave the fathers information, knowledge, forbidden knowledge. Book of Enoch says they gave them the knowledge that they were, that the men were striving to learn. And this, I think this was technological knowledge. What we would call today scientific knowledge. And then the watchers, just as it says in Genesis 6, they, they copulate with their wives, who conceive and give birth to a race of giants called the Nephilim. And then what results is men are corrupted by the forbidden knowledge of the watchers, the giants grow to a enormous size and ultimately begin to consume all of the acquisitions of the land, so that men can no longer sustain their appetites. So human beings were basically subjugated to these, to this hybrid race of giants. And they were spending all of their time and energy feeding them. And when they could no longer satisfy their enormous appetites, the giants began to devour mankind. And it's at this point that men begin to cry out to God. And the court of heaven hears the appeal of mankind, and God dispatches some angels to the earth. He causes the, he binds the Watchers. But by the way, I should say, this is, nobody knows the duration of time from when the Watchers descended the days of Jared to the flood of Noah. At the very least, you're looking at hundreds of years, if not thousands of years, of this going on on planet Earth. And then, so the Watchers are dispatched, I mean, the angels are dispatched to the earth, they bind the Watchers. But before the Watchers are incarcerated in the abyss, they're forced to watch the destruction of their beloved sons, of the giants, who are enticed, who are incited to war with one another. So you have this fratricidal war that takes place among the giants. And I describe this as the Empire of the Gods. Because it's not like big dumb giants from Disney movies when we were growing up, bashing each other over the head with clubs. These were exceptionally intelligent beings. Their fathers, The Book of Enoch says, taught them and their wives. They instructed them in their knowledge. So they were receiving the instruction of their fathers. So these were very, very intelligent beings, probably in possession of what I would describe as advanced technology, maybe even advanced aerospace technology, which I do believe existed in the antediluvian world. I think that's how the Watchers got to the summit of Mount Hermon, by the way, at the helms of advanced aerospace vehicles, what we would describe today as UFOs. So to close out this story, the Watchers, rather the Giants go to war with each other. I believe this is a technological war. And then the flood ensues, the great flood. And the flood was intended to cleanse the earth of the abominable seed of the Watchers, and to reset mankind. So that's an encapsulation, a summarization of what the first section of The Book of Watchers describes, rather The Book of Enoch called The Book of Watchers.

Speaker 2:
[19:29] It's a great summary. If I were a Biblical scholar, would I have any points around The Book of Enoch to say that it's, oh, it's just apocryphal and it's not connected to the Bible? And what would you say to those points?

Speaker 1:
[19:45] Well, nearly all scholars agree that The Book of Enoch provides the cosmological substrate for the ancient Hebrews. There's no doubt about that. I mean, the story is referenced indirectly in the Old Testament, obviously, Genesis 6 and in other portions, but also in the New Testament. In fact, when you get to the New Testament, you find Jesus of Nazareth using a title, a very specific title, the title he preferred, more than any other. It's a Messianic title, but it doesn't come from the Old Testament. It comes exclusively from The Book of Enoch. And that title is The Son of Man. Now, there are several titles that Jesus could have employed when referencing himself, Messianic titles. And he did use various titles, The Son of God, for example, which he was. But he uses the Son of Man the most. And there is no reference. That is a proper title, The Son of Man. So the only reference in the Old Testament that scholars will go to is a reference in the Book of Daniel, where Daniel sees one like a son of man. But that is a descriptor. That is saying, like, I saw one who looked like a human being, like an offspring of Adam. It's not a proper title. The proper title, The Son of Man comes from First Enoch, specifically from the second section of First Enoch, which is called the parables. And the parables are the Oracles of Enoch. And the Oracles of Enoch pertain primarily to the Son of Man and were fulfilled, clearly fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth. Now, there is some dispute in regard to when the parables were authored or compiled. The Book of Enoch, first of all, the Book of Enoch is a compilation of texts with several authors. And the various sections of Enoch were probably written at different time, different periods of time. The oldest section, namely the Book of the Watchers, containing the Enochian tale of the Watchers, that was written at least circa 300 BC. But I think that the oral tradition at least is way older. I think it's began with Enoch. And in fact, the Hebrews believed that Enoch was the inventor of writing, that he was the first to write. And remember, Enoch was revered as a prophet and a scribe. So he prophesied and he wrote. And tradition says that those writings were delivered ultimately to Noah and preserved through the flood. So is it possible that portions of first Enoch actually originate thousands of years ago? Maybe the very first writing ever conceived by the human species was written by the hand of Enoch. And that's why people, the contention here is mostly from the secular world that the Bible is, all of the stories in the Bible are just copies of the more ancient Mesopotamian texts. Well, sure. But what if the foundation for those stories goes all the way back to Enoch? Then everybody's copying Enoch and everybody has a version of what Enoch wrote.

Speaker 2:
[23:09] Right.

Speaker 1:
[23:10] And it's very possible in my mind that the Hebrews have the most faithful rendition of what was, of the oral traditions and of, in fact, of the written compositions that came from the antediluvian world, which far predate the ancient Mesopotamians.

Speaker 2:
[23:29] And Enoch was related to Noah, is that right?

Speaker 1:
[23:31] Yes. Yes. I believe Enoch was his great-great-grandfather. Enoch was the father of Methuselah, who was the father of Lamech, who was the father of Noah.

Speaker 2:
[23:40] Interesting. And yeah, in the Old Testament, you have the Methuselah, a lot of these guys lived for very long periods as well, which I think caused you to ask all sorts of-

Speaker 1:
[23:50] 900 plus years.

Speaker 2:
[23:51] That's right. Yeah. It's so fascinating. How is it found? How is the Book of Enoch discovered?

Speaker 1:
[23:56] The Book of Enoch was preserved by the Ethiopians. Had the Ethiopians not preserved the Book of Enoch, we would not have it to this day because it was clearly expunged from the scriptoriums of the Middle East and the West. There was a lot of controversy in the early church age over the Book of Enoch. Some of the early church fathers wanted to incorporate it into the canon. So there was an ongoing debate that what cannot be denied is that the Book of Enoch is that the early church was conversant with what we call First Enoch today. Now, there's clearly a different manuscript in circulation because some of the early church fathers cite the Book of Enoch. They're citing portions of the Book of Enoch, which we don't have today in what we call First Enoch. But then they also cite portions which we do. So some of these early church fathers reference the Book of Enoch as scripture. In fact, around the 4th century AD, the Tawahedo Orthodox Christians and the Bet-A-Israel Jewish community in Ethiopia incorporated the Book of Enoch into their canon. That's why they preserved it. So to this day, if you visit Ethiopia and you visit a synagogue or you visit an Orthodox church, among the scriptures that we have in our canon in the West, you'll find the Book of Enoch and some other apocryphal works as well. They revered the Book of Enoch and so they preserved it. So but as I said, the early church was undoubtedly conversant with portions of what we call today First Enoch. And what I was going to say before was you have the Book of Enoch attested in the Old and New Testament. And when you read the parables, the Oracles of Enoch, which are primarily prophecies pertaining to the Messiah, to the Christ, again, fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth, clearly, you realize that the writers of the New Testament derived much of their eschatology and Christology, their theology regarding the Messiah directly from the Oracles of Enoch. And in fact, there are citations throughout the New Testament that are not found in the Old Testament, references, indirect references that are only to be found in the Book of Enoch. So scholars will say, you know, it's divided, the scholarly community, there's lots of difference in opinions there in regard to the Book of Enoch. They all will concede that the earliest portions of Enoch were compiled around 300 BC. Some scholars will say that the parables, again, containing those Messianic prophecies, were compiled sometime around 100 AD. There's a lot of debate about that, but precisely because it's apparent that the authors of the New Testament are deriving so much of the theology from the parables of Enoch. So it's hard for some scholars to believe that these prophecies, which are so astonishingly accurate, fulfilled, clearly fulfilled, as I keep saying, in Jesus of Nazareth, that those could have been written before the advent of Christ. I believe they were. I believe that the oracles of Enoch are ancient, that the earliest portions of First Enoch, namely the Book of the Watchers and the oracles of Enoch, were written by his hand. That's what or some version of them carried through the flood in the form of oral tradition at the very least, and then someone later compiled them.

Speaker 2:
[28:13] Is there some sort of control mandate or something? If you think of the Council of Nicaea and creating the modern canon.

Speaker 1:
[28:22] Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2:
[28:22] Is there a reason to specifically get rid of the Book of Enoch? Because it's sort of subversive or reverent in some way?

Speaker 1:
[28:29] Yes, because the prevailing view became, especially because of Augustine, or Augustine, I always forget how to pronounce his name, the saint, because he was a proponent, he was a proponent of what's called the non-supernatural view of Genesis 6. The supernatural view of Genesis 6 is that the sons of God were the angels of heaven. Clearly, this is the case because in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which was in circulation during the time of Christ, and certainly during the early church, this was the manuscript that the non-Jewish converts were reading, was the Septuagint of the Old Testament. It's a translation of the Tanakh, the Hebrew Old Testament, into Greek. In the Septuagint, when you read Genesis 6, it doesn't say the sons of God, it says the angels of God, so that's definitive. These are not human beings. These are celestial beings, and this was the prevailing view until probably the second century AD, when the Jewish community, they preferred the non-supernatural rendering of that verse. What they did was, they said that the sons of God in Genesis 6, that copulated with the daughters of Adam, that these were noble men from the line of Seth, and or the Sethites, is what they call it. It's called the Sethite theory. And these were not heavenly beings. These were just men. And the church adopted that position. They followed suit and they adopted that position, primarily because of St. Augustine. And so that became the prevailing view. And it is the prevailing view to this day, although the tides are turning, more and more people are realizing that that's preposterous. Based on, by the way, the story of Enoch, the Enochian tale, is attested not just in Enoch, but in several Dead Sea Scroll manuscripts, including The Book of Giants, The Book of Jubilees, The Genesis Apocryphon, and others. All of these, and there's no question that the supernatural view of Genesis 6 was the prevailing view during the Second Temple Period. No question whatsoever.

Speaker 2:
[31:05] Then you combine that with the Zeptepe, with the Greek gods, with all of these other myths across disparate cultures, all involving sort of demigod, like little G gods, and then some sort of flood, and it's like, okay, maybe we should stop treating this just as myth and start treating it as history. Plato and Solon, it's just ubiquitous.

Speaker 1:
[31:33] The difference is, this is what makes the Hebrew account unique. The difference is, those other cultures, they viewed the antediluvian world through a laudatory prism. In other words, they viewed it as this wonderful time of peace and prosperity, of the sharing of knowledge from the gods to mankind. If the gods, as I said earlier, were establishing the foundations of civilization, of learning, of science, were imparting them to mankind, and that the world that existed in the antediluvian world was in every way vastly superior to their own civilizations, to their post-flood, post-cataclysmic civilizations. Post-cataclysm civilizations. When they look back into the past, very, this is antithetical to the way we look back into the past. So when we, as moderns, when we look back into the past, we see this, the timeline of history, right? We are, in our minds, we're the pinnacle of civilization right now. We're the pinnacle of learning, scientific learning, we're the smartest human beings ever to exist on planet Earth. Everybody that preceded us was inferior to us intellectually speaking. There's this gradual retrograde of civilization as you go backwards on the timeline of history. So you start from superior modern man, and then you progress backward through history, and people are getting dumber and dumber and dumber and dumber, until you get into the Neolithic and you've got cavemen, right? You've got these just these these Neolithic dummies, basically, you know, one step removed from from chimpanzees. That's not how the ancients viewed the past. Quite the opposite.

Speaker 2:
[33:20] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:21] The way that our antecedents viewed the anti-deluvian world was that they were like children trying to recover some vestige of the knowledge, of the glory, of the magnificence of their antecedents that existed in the world before the cataclysm. When they went backward in time, it wasn't a gradual decrease in the knowledge and sophistication of civilization, but rather the civilizations that preceded them in the anti-deluvian world were vastly superior to them.

Speaker 2:
[33:55] Speaking of which, you said something amazing earlier. You said you think that that time period, those sort of demigod creatures used advanced aerospace vehicles. I think of the Vimana as just the proverbial example of this. Is there any other evidence that they actually had technological aerial vehicles? Obviously, we have to go to texts and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1:
[34:19] You have to go to text. Yeah. I don't know of any archeological evidence.

Speaker 2:
[34:22] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[34:23] Of course, you have anecdotal accounts like Bob Lazar.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[34:28] Who said that among the craft that he saw in the hangars at the S4 facility, he was told that one of them had been retrieved from an archeological site.

Speaker 2:
[34:38] That's right.

Speaker 1:
[34:38] It was very ancient. Not the one he worked on, not the sports model, but a different one had been allegedly, and he didn't know if this was true or not, but allegedly it had been recovered from an ancient burial site, an archeological dig. So yeah, I don't have any problem with that. Again, this is a period of time that the ancients described as the Golden Age. What I was illustrating earlier was that in the mind of the pagan cultures, this was the pinnacle of mankind, of civilization, and it was a time of peace and prosperity. But from the Hebraic perception, it was, this was a dystopian nightmare. This was a time of great oppression, the empire of the gods, when essentially the watchers were governing the earth by proxy behind the thrones of their hybrid giant offspring who were devouring mankind, who were oppressing mankind. It was a time of unparalleled bloodshed and sorcery and all manner of transgression against the king of heaven. That's the difference. So from the, the pagan world view, these were, the gods were like our Promethean benefactors. They stole fire from the gods and gave it to mankind. But from the Hebraic perspective, these watchers were evil. They were, these were malevolent beings and, and their, their intention was to deceive mankind. And that mankind was corrupted by the knowledge that was given to them, the forbidden secrets as the Book of Enoch has it. And that all of this activity led to the flood, to the destruction of the world. Um, so that's the, that's, that's a very different view of the Antediluvian Age.

Speaker 2:
[36:27] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[36:27] From the Hebraic perspective.

Speaker 2:
[36:31] Do you think this book is not just this kind of, you know, past thing about, you know, kind of metaphysics pre, you know, uh, flood? And do you think it holds relevance today? Where are, where are the watchers today?

Speaker 1:
[36:45] Yes, it does. So to the first question, according to The Book of Enoch and the Bible and the New Testament, according to Peter, according to Jude, the watchers are currently chained up in, Peter calls it Tartarus, the Abyss, in the gloomy darkness. And this is directly from The Book of Enoch. So when the angels were dispatched to bind the watchers, remember the watchers were first forced to watch the destruction of the beloved sons in this fratricidal civil war, which again, I think was technological. And then they were in prison, they were incarcerated, and they're still incarcerated to this day. And according to The Book of Enoch, they're going to be incarcerated until the end of the age, when the age is fully consummated, that's what The Book of Enoch says, and until the day of judgment. So until the very end. Now, there's some Biblical commentators, some colleagues of mine, who believe that the Watchers are going to be released at the end of the age, and that they're going to create a lot of havoc that you see unfolding in the earth in The Book of Revelation. I don't know, I personally think that The Book of Enoch is pretty explicit that the Watchers are going to be chained until the day of judgment, which would mean all the way to the very end, when the great judge returns to the earth. By the way, this is a little bit of a digression, but here's another illustration, another attestation of The Book of Enoch in the New Testament. Jesus was in the land of Gadara with his disciples and he was approached by a man, a man who the Bible describes or two men, depending on which gospel you're reading, who's described as the Gadarene demoniac, because he was full of a legion of demons. You'll recall this story. So Jesus disembarks on the shore of Gadara, this demon possessed man who has a legion of demons inside of him comes running up to Jesus and throws himself at his feet. And he declares, we know who you are, you son of God. And then he says, why have you come to torment us before the appointed time? And that always puzzled me when I was growing up as a teenager reading that. What do you mean before the appointed time? What does that mean? They recognized that Jesus was that son of man from the Oracles of Enoch, the son of God. And that there was an appointed time of judgment for them. So why were they freaking out? Because they recognize two things. They recognized that Jesus was the great judge. He was the judge who was going to judge them at the appointed time. And the second thing they recognized was it wasn't time yet. But here's the judge. What are you doing here? It's not time yet. You're early. Now, where does that come from? Doesn't come from the Old Testament. It comes from the Book of Enoch. Because when the giants destroy themselves in this fratricidal war, they're cursed. God puts a curse on them. Because they're not fully of their celestial fathers, the Watchers, and they're not fully of their human mothers. So they're unsanctioned sentient beings. And so they're cursed. When they die and their spirits are apart from their bodies, their spirits are now going to be forced to wander the earth as disembodied vagabond wraiths. But the curse is this. They're going to have all of the desires of the flesh. They're going to be hungry, thirsty, presumably, have all of the sexual impulses of the flesh, but without corporeal bodies through which to satiate these desires, to satisfy them. That's the curse. And you'll probably recall that this was the Mayan curse in the Curse of the Mayan Gold in Pirates of the Caribbean. Remember? That's the Nephilimic curse in the Pirates of the Caribbean. Barbossa and his crew, they were deathless, basically. They couldn't die, but neither could they enjoy anything while they were alive perpetually. And remember, Barbossa wanted to bite into the apple, and it was revealed, I forget in the story, I think on a full moon or whatever, that they were like these wraiths, and they couldn't enjoy anything, and so they desperately wanted to break the curse. That was the premise of the story, and that's exactly the situation of the spirits of dead giants. And this is where you get the origin of demons in the New Testament and in the Old Testament. Demons, according to ancient Hebrew cosmology, are the disembodied spirits of dead giants that persist in the world. Evil spirits.

Speaker 2:
[41:38] That's like the definition.

Speaker 1:
[41:39] That's the definition. And in The Book of Enoch, the judgment that comes against the giants is, you will be called evil spirits in the earth or unclean spirits in the earth. And you will wander the earth. You'll be hungry, you'll be thirsty, but you won't be able to satisfy the desires of your flesh because you won't have any flesh. And so what do these beings do? What do these disembodied spirits do? They seek to inhabit human flesh. They possess human beings in order to attempt to satiate these desires. That's why they inhabit the body. So fast forward to the New Testament. And you have Jesus of Nazareth encountering, and his disciples, encountering people who are demon possessed. And they recognize who he is. And he tells them to be quiet in a couple of occasions. Because they say, we know who you are, you son of God. And so now fast forwarding to the Gadarene demoniac, who's inhabited by a legion of demons. Oh, and I actually skipped the most imperative point here. Going back to the Book of Enoch, part of the curse was, this was going to be your lot. This was going to be your curse to the spirits of the dead giants until the great judge appears to judge the living and the dead, until the day of judgment. And then they will be judged with finality and cast into the lake of fire. And so the Legion of Demons recognizes that Jesus is the great judge from the Oracles of Enoch. And as I said before, knows that the time has not yet come for their final judgment. That comes directly from the Book of Enoch. So it's just another illustration of how the themes, the Enochic traditions and themes are woven through the Old and New Testament. That's a digression from what we're talking about.

Speaker 2:
[43:38] No, it's fascinating. And a burning question I have is you have this conversation around UFO disclosure to alien beings or non-human intelligence. You have Congresswoman Ana Polina Luna going on Joe Rogan and saying, read the Book of Enoch. That somehow is important for this whole story.

Speaker 3:
[44:00] Imagine a world in which if Enoch was left in the Bible and people were like, wait, what happened?

Speaker 4:
[44:06] Okay. So if you read it, it talks about the fall of angels, thus creating really the precursor of civilization that led to the first flood. I think that when you even go into potentially the technology that was given to mankind by these angels, it talks about the hidden beliefs and theories in astronomy, et cetera, metal workings, all of it. If you have this information pertaining to UAPs, whatever they might be, the origins. I mean, if you have an understanding of what Enoch was talking about, it kind of makes sense.

Speaker 2:
[44:40] So what does this clearly not so apocryphal, actually probably core text in The Book of Enoch and the Nephi-Lim and the Watchers, what does that have to do with modern kind of alien UFO disclosure?

Speaker 1:
[44:58] Well, so generally speaking, what do you have in The Book of Enoch and in Genesis 6? Our extraterrestrial beings descending to the earth.

Speaker 2:
[45:08] Why do you think that?

Speaker 1:
[45:10] Well, because they are by nature extraterrestrial. This is one of the things that I talked about in my book, Birthright. I think the word extraterrestrial is a very useful word. It's a very useful term because extraterrestrial simply means a being whose provenance is not planet Earth. A being whose origin is not the Earth. That's an extra terrestrial. Of course, we're contextualizing this term within the context of sentient beings. I'm not talking about amoebas here or something like that, or bacteria. Although those would also be considered extra terrestrial bacteria. Should we find bacteria on Mars, those would be defined as extra terrestrial bacteria, because they're not from the Earth. Even if they're very similar to bacteria on Earth, well, they're extra terrestrial because they're not from the Earth. It's a very accurate term, very useful term. Now, opponents of mine will say, wait, that's not a biblical term. Well, I would like to highlight that neither is the term fallen angels, a biblical term. And a lot of people think it is. It's not. You will not find fallen angels in the Bible. It doesn't exist. Now, the concept is biblical. The concept of a quote unquote fallen angel is very biblical. A fallen angel are defected sons of God. They are apostate sons of God. They are angelic beings who defected from the kingdom and now are in opposition to God. We all understand that. That's what fallen angel means. In the same way, the word extraterrestrial doesn't show up in the biblical text or extra biblical text. They didn't use that terminology back then. But the concept is accurate, is biblically accurate. In that, you have beings who are clearly not from planet Earth, whose provenance is not planet Earth, and indeed, whose origin is pre-existent to mankind. They pre-exist us. This is clear, especially in the Book of Job, where we read that the morning stars sang together, and the sons of God shouted for joy as the foundations of the Earth were being laid, or depending on how you view that, as the Earth was being renewed previous to the creation of mankind. So, here you have sentient extra- terrestrial beings. By definition, they're not on the Earth. They're observing the creation or the reformation of the Earth, depending on your theological worldview. And they are celebrating it. They're shouting for joy. And the designation morning star and sons of God, morning stars and sons of God, is very important. Because morning stars, the Bible uses the stars, as a metaphor for angelic beings, for celestial beings. So a morning star, what that designates are beings who were created early on, who are pre-existent. They're the first beings to appear. In other words, the stars you see in the morning, it's like those are the morning stars. These are the beings who appear at the beginning of creation, the first sentient beings. So I think they're very old. And furthermore, they're called sons of God, which is very important because that's a designation, that's a familial designation. These aren't just whatever sentient beings. These are sons of God. These are members of the family. This becomes very important in the biblical text. And this is something that I articulate in Birthright, is that Adam was created to be a son of God using that same familial language. And that we, through Christ, become the sons of God according to Jesus of Nazareth, being, by the way, sons of the resurrection. So there's a family dynamic here. The Bible uses these familial terms because there's a family, there's a divine family. And when you read the genealogy of Jesus of Nazareth, it traces Jesus through Joseph or through Mary, depending on which genealogy you're reading, back through David, back through Abraham, back into the pre-flood world through Enoch, and all the way back to Adam. And when you get to Adam, it says, Adam, the son of God. So what the Bible is signaling here is that Adam, the human species, was originally created, designed, intended to be a member of the divine family. And so this ties into the Gospel of Christ later on, because you understand when Jesus shows up on the scene, I hope you don't mind me digressing into a bit of theology here. When Jesus shows up on the scene, he makes it abundantly clear that his mission is to bring back the prodigal sons back into the family of God, that he gives us power to become the sons of God. So in other words, that's really the message of the Gospel, that you were once members of this family, you were once members of the divine family in Adam. And that was the intention that mankind was, in my estimation, created for two purposes. Number one, to commune with the creator, with the maker, and with who I describe in Birthright as his elder siblings, these other sentient beings, the other sons of God who pre-exist mankind. To fellowship in the family of God, that's the primary purpose. And then secondarily, to govern the Earth, to govern planet Earth. These theological threads become very, very important when you get to the discussions that are currently happening in about extraterrestrials, and how we ought to view that coming from a Christian perspective at least. And so the whole point of the gospel is to return the sons and daughters back to the family of God. Illustrated by the way in the parable of the prodigal son. So you have these sons of God who pre-exist mankind. They're not, clearly, they're not human. And they're not from planet Earth. They are therefore by definition, extraterrestrial, the celestial beings. They're extraterrestrial. Now you can quibble over whether or not they come from a literal extraterrestrial world, like a different planet in the universe. Or they come from some kind of a spiritual world, like a different, I guess, dimension. Or you could just say they're interdimensional beings that come from a different dimension. It doesn't matter which of these you choose. You're still talking about beings whose origin, whose provenance is not planet Earth. They are therefore, unequivocally, extraterrestrial. So this describes the beings who descended in the days of Jared. According to the Book of Enoch in Genesis 6, these beings came from some extraterrestrial realm. Again, whether you think it's a interdimensional realm, like Annapolian Luna, whatever, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2:
[52:39] And this lines up, by the way, with Sumerian myth. You have the Anunnaki. It lines up with Greek myth, where you have these Titans, and they're the sons of God. And I'm hearing about the Book of Enoch, and it sounds a lot like Prometheus, by the way, where you have this sort of rebel faction of Titans who try to give mankind sacred knowledge. And then in his case, I think he's chained up to a rock and vulture has to pick at his liver constantly. So this is an archetypal myth that cuts across a lot of regions and cultures.

Speaker 1:
[53:14] It's universal.

Speaker 2:
[53:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[53:15] It's universal. The universal testimony of our of our antecedents is that there was an age previous to a great flood or a great cataclysm in which the gods were dwelling on earth among men and parting their knowledge, establishing civilization, the benchmark, the trademarks of civilization. And that those beings came from somewhere. And specifically, this is, by the way, what the late researcher extraordinaire, David Flynn unfolds in his book Sidonia, which was the most, as I was telling you earlier, the book Sidonia, that's the most consequential book I've ever read in my entire life.

Speaker 2:
[54:01] You got me a copy. I really appreciate it. Yeah. It looks amazing.

Speaker 1:
[54:06] And his daughter, Tysi, who I'm very good friends with, his twin brother, Mark, who's brilliant in his own right, author himself, and his daughter, Tysi, and his son, Alexander. And I'm so excited that Tysi, because it was basically out of print for a long time. There was a couple of places you could find it, but it was extreme. That book, before Flynn's daughter reprinted it, it was going for $2,000 and $3,000 online. And then she reprinted it. Now you can get it for like $25 on Amazon. But Flynn really unpacks a lot of this in that book, and that provided the substrate for my book, Birthright. And what Flynn proves, I would say definitively, is that not only do the ancients believe that the gods descended to the earth in the Antediluvian world during the Golden Age, but that they came from somewhere very specific. They came from a planet in our solar system.

Speaker 2:
[55:05] Which planet?

Speaker 1:
[55:07] Well, it's which planets. Primarily, there's a planet that Flynn talks about, which is sort of in popular culture, it's referred to as Krypton. That's where you get the Superman mythology from. But the ancients also had a Krypton in mind, a destroyed planet, a destroyed realm from which the gods descended, or destroyed realms more specifically. One of these planets, Flynn believed in, and I believe this as well, I write it in Birthright, is actually named in the biblical text. Cryptically, it's called Rahab. Wow. And that this planet, there's this conflict that erupted in the cosmos, long before the creation of mankind. Because in Flynn's view, and I completely concur, our solar system was inhabited by a non-human extraterrestrial race of angelic beings. So Flynn viewed this very much not as an interdimensional thing, but literally the planets were inhabited. That's why on the cover of that book there you have the ruined structures on Mars. And I believe, of course, most of us are familiar with the Cydonia region of Mars, the alleged face on Mars, and Richard Hoagland was instrumental in publicizing this back in the 90s. And in fact, Richard Hoagland did a series of conferences with David Flynn. And sometimes they were accompanied by the late Michael Heiser, the scholar. And they really, as I said, really publicized the idea that there are ruins on the planet Mars, ruins of an ancient advanced civilization. Of course, you have the remote viewer, McDonagall.

Speaker 2:
[57:03] Yeah, Joe McMonagall.

Speaker 1:
[57:05] Yeah. Who recently, I believe he was on the Sean Ryan Show.

Speaker 2:
[57:10] He was tasked by the CIA to remote view Mars a million years ago and described giant beings. That's right.

Speaker 1:
[57:17] And ruins, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[57:18] And ruins, eight to 12 feet tall beings in pyramid structures. By the way, I think on Cydonia, you do have some pyramid-like structures.

Speaker 1:
[57:26] The DNM pyramid, which is a massive pyramid.

Speaker 2:
[57:31] It's remarkable. And then you also have this guy.

Speaker 1:
[57:33] Allegedly.

Speaker 2:
[57:34] Allegedly. You have this guy, John Brandenburg, as well, who's a PhD physics, who worked at Lawrence Livermore and Sandia. And he believes that Argon 40 and Xenon 129 exist in excess of what you would ever see just based on kind of natural decay. And this is proof of a nuclear cataclysm that occurred on Mars. And apparently he got called by Carl Sagan when he started to talk about this publicly. And Carl Sagan was like, John, why are you making such a fuss about all this stuff or something like that?

Speaker 1:
[58:08] And you know what? I mean, so Hoagland and Flynn were talking about this back in the 90s and early 2000s. And then NASA, you know, NASA released the early photographs that it looked like a face on Mars, it looked like a pyramid. And then they released new higher resolution photographs which seemed to debunk the whole thing, right? No, actually, it doesn't look like a face and it's not really this. I personally, I have no proof of this, okay? I'm just spitballing. But I personally think that the images from the first mission of the surface of Mars were correct, were accurate. And that NASA released those second higher resolution images to sort of quell the firestorm that had erupted. And I am extremely persuaded that there are ruins that dwarf anything on planet Earth. The ruins of an ancient civilization on the planet Mars, specifically in the region of Cydonia. And this, what's so fascinating about this, is that the ancients believed that the gods descended from Mars and from this other planet that was destroyed. It's sort of, and this is again, sounds very complex. It is. And Flynn lays it out. I mean, you read Cydonia and it's like, to me, there's no question that the ancients believe that the gods descended from Mars and from Rahab. And as I said before, I believe that the destruction of Rahab, which is always associated with the wrath of God, this pre-Adamic conflict that erupted in our solar system, and this faction, this defected faction of angelic beings who went to war with the King of Heaven. And it's associated with the dragon, and the dragon becomes a moniker for Satan in the Bible, which neither dragon nor Satan are his actual names, nor Lucifer, by the way. That's a misnomer from the Vallgate, from Jerome's Vallgate. But there's this character in the New Testament, in the Old and New Testament, the Bible, who's never actually named, he's much like Voldemort from the Harry Potter series. It's he who should not be named, right? He's never actually named. But he's the great opponent of the King of Heaven and of the purposes of God. And one of his primary monikers is the dragon or the serpent. And so the destruction of Rahab, and Flynn goes through this in Sidonia, I go through this in Birthright. There are multiple verses in the Old Testament that seem to suggest that God shattered a planet, that he shattered Rahab like a vessel of clay. He pierced the dragon and shattered Rahab.

Speaker 2:
[61:05] Are there any of those verses that come to mind? And then what's the evidence that it's Mars specifically?

Speaker 1:
[61:11] Well, the shattered planet isn't Mars. The shattered planet is Rahab. So the idea is that the asteroid field, that the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, that that is the residue of a planet that exploded. And the contention, the popular contention is that there's not enough debris. It can't be a planet, there's not enough debris. But recent papers have been published, peer-reviewed papers. I read a couple of them. One at least, in which a very good case is made, and I wish I could cite the paper here, but I can't, I don't remember what it is.

Speaker 2:
[61:47] We'll pull it out.

Speaker 1:
[61:49] That there is enough debris because much of the debris, if a planet exploded, much of the physical debris would have A, been vaporized, and B, shot off into space. So you would have the planet explode, much of the debris is just getting jettisoned into deep space. And only a very small fraction of it would get caught up in the gravitational pull of the sun, and would form ultimately the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Now, I'm not an astrophysicist, okay? So I'm way out of my depth talking about this kind of stuff. But the ancients believe, you can track it, that there was a planet that was destroyed. And this is one of the places that the gods came from. Now, it connects to Mars because Mars was destroyed partly in the wake of the destruction of this planet, which again, I also believe is attested in the biblical narrative. There's a few verses and I have them in my book Birthright, the exact verses, but there are some verses in the Psalms and elsewhere, which position the Earth as a spectator to this cosmic destruction that causes the mountains to melt like wax. So you can imagine if there was a massive planet between Mars and Jupiter, assuming that the planets today are in the same orbits as they used to be, because there's a possibility that such an explosion could have moved things around. But that planet implodes. We can't even imagine the destructive force that that would have unleashed. There's no explosion except for like a supernova that we can think of that would be that powerful. But when that planet exploded, it rained down fire. Shards of Rahab bombarded the surface of Mars, bombarded the surfaces of the other planets in the solar system, bombarded the surface of the earth, and absolutely reduced everything to rubble, eviscerated whatever civilizations were inhabiting those planets. But also, previous to the destruction of Rahab, I believe again, in the Biblical narrative, you can trace the thread of a cosmic pre-Adamic war that erupted in the heavens, among this angelic civilization and possibly other things as well. It was between what the Bible describes as the king of heaven, who vanquished the dragon, who pierced the dragon, who crushed the dragon's head and shattered Rahab like a vessel of clay. In that process, in this conflict, the civilization on Mars was eviscerated. In other words, they were first engaged in this conflict, technological conflict, with again, who the Bible describes as the king of heaven, who is revealed to be the son of God, kinetic war. And then after that, or in the midst of that conflict, rehab explodes, God destroys it, and then that's the final blow to this rebel faction. So this would be the idea here is a rebellious faction of quote unquote fallen angels are going to war with the king of heaven, kinetic war in the cosmos, indeed in our solar system, before the creation of atom.

Speaker 2:
[65:17] Wow.

Speaker 1:
[65:17] So this is a pre-Adamic race of intelligent beings, clearly extraterrestrial, especially if their habitation is on Mars, and rehab, and elsewhere in the cosmos, which I believe it was.

Speaker 2:
[65:29] I don't think it's even controversial on conventional astronomical circles to say that Mars had a biosphere at one point. I mean, there are water caverns all throughout Mars. I believe also in the 90s, there was ALH 84001, this meteor that was found that Bill Clinton made a speech on and said they found polycyclic hydrocarbons or whatever in the meteor. And I think they sort of backtracked that, like they backtracked on the Viking missions. By the way, I've heard that the JPL guy who was in charge of the Viking missions also swears by there being sort of evidence of life on Mars or something in his life. So it's all very interesting.

Speaker 1:
[66:12] What's even more interesting is that Elon Musk is determined to put men on Mars.

Speaker 2:
[66:18] Occupy Mars.

Speaker 1:
[66:20] And what people don't realize, again, I'm going to reference Sidonia. This is what Flynn traces in his book, is that the objective to put a man on Mars is an ancient aspiration. It is in fact one of the primary objectives of the mystery schools.

Speaker 2:
[66:38] Really?

Speaker 1:
[66:39] Yes, to make contact with this, to recover the lost knowledge of the gods on Mars.

Speaker 2:
[66:47] On Mars specifically.

Speaker 1:
[66:48] On Mars specifically.

Speaker 2:
[66:49] Like mystery schools like the Brotherhood of the Serpent and the Freemasons.

Speaker 1:
[66:56] Mystery schools going all the way back to, I believe they go back to Cain, obviously. That's just a conjecture of mine. But certainly, unequivocally, the mystery schools are perpetuated primarily through the Phoenicians. And the Phoenicians really are the, you might, aside from the anti-deluvian mystery schools, if they existed, the Phoenicians are certainly the primary post-deluvian keepers of knowledge from the anti-deluvian world. I mean, the Phoenicians were the great masons of the ancient world and navigators. Seafaring people. They circumnavigated Africa, for sure. I think they crossed the Atlantic. I think they were mining copper in the Great Lakes. I know that's very controversial. I think that the reason why you find red-haired giants, the remains of red-haired giants in the mounds of America back in the 18 and early 1900s, is because they came over the sea with the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians had a cult of giant worship. All kinds of evidence of giants among the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians were essentially a secret society. Wow. Fascinating. Who did Solomon contract with to build the temple?

Speaker 2:
[68:15] The Phoenicians.

Speaker 1:
[68:16] The Phoenicians, Hiram of Tyre. Hiram of Biff, his artificer, the Hiram of Tyre, the king, and Hiram of Biff, his premier artificer. That's who built the temple, Solomon's temple. They were the master masons. They built the fleets for Egypt, for ancient Egypt.

Speaker 2:
[68:36] The mystery schools have this aspiration, because I think of the Temple of Solomon as part of the mystery school aspiration and interest as well. But they have this three line around getting to Mars. I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:
[68:49] Yes. In the past. Yes. Again, one of the primary aspirations of the mystery schools is to recover the lost knowledge of the gods from Mars. Now, is our aspiration, is Elon Musk's aspiration to go to Mars associated with this? Or just part of that impetus, the undercurrent for the mystery schools? Is there a hidden hand directing us back to Mars? I would say so. I think when we go there soon, probably in our lifetime, we are going to find evidence of an ancient civilization, extraterrestrial civilization on Mars. I have a feeling that it's going to be announced rather soon, perhaps even by President Trump, that there's microbial life on Mars or was. That we have evidence of, I mean, NASA's already beginning to prime that pump. So I think what's going to come first is the announcement that, hey, there was life on Mars. We have evidence of microbial life on Mars. That's the preamble.

Speaker 2:
[69:50] That would be a good little soft disclosure. Exactly. Test the waters, see what happens there. So I think, okay, so we have, let's establish a baseline. So we have these watchers that came down. They were extraterrestrial. They mated with man. They created Nephilim of which we are the descendants. The Nephilim were banished. They were made to be these disincarnate wandering spirits, demonic spirits. And then we have all this interesting evidence that a lot of this actually holds astronomical weight in the ancient world. What does all of this have to do with modern? We think about UFOs flying around and alien abductions. And is there anything that we think of metaphysically back then with those stories that still apply to today? Because I think that my biggest question is like, you have UFOs back then, and you have sacred knowledge back then. The sacred knowledge gets lost in the flood. And now, circa 2026, you have Trump tweeting about UFOs. We're all talking about all this stuff. Is this...

Speaker 1:
[71:02] And then you have this alleged group of evangelical Christians who are being talked about all the time now. The Collins Elite. The so-called Collins Elite. Yeah. It's all very interesting.

Speaker 2:
[71:14] Yeah. So do you think the flying vehicles of today... Because you could be considered a modern ufologist. You research a lot of these phenomena today. If the watchers are chained up somewhere, but some of that knowledge made its way to mankind, what are these aerial vehicles that we're seeing?

Speaker 1:
[71:35] So that's actually a great point. So these 200 watchers that descended to the earth within the biblical context, these were a separate group from the other beings, the other angelic beings who the Bible describes in many ways, but in one passage is the devil and his angels. So the Satan figure was here before the watchers descended to the earth. Satan was here with his quote unquote fallen angels. I'm not a big fan of that term, but people understand when I use it what I mean. So these apostate, rebel sons of God, angelic beings are here on the earth, and they have not been chained up. They've been here, they were here before us, and this is a remnant of that, let's put it into the Star Wars terms, a rebel alliance, except in this case, they're the bad guys, who were fighting against the kingdom of heaven that we talked about early when Rahab exploded in the civilization on Mars, and all that, they came from there. So we're not even referencing the Watchers in that context. The Watchers came afterward. The Watchers came in the days, descend in the days of Jared, so humankind was already populating the earth. That's when the Watchers descended. But the dragon, the devil and his angel, Satan, and his consort, his cohort, they came to the earth or were cast down to the earth a long time ago after that cosmic battle. So they were here before Adam. They were here before the Watchers. They're a separate group. These are heavenly beings, right? Probably the same kind of beings as the Watchers. And by the way, there's a misconception, and this really is propagated in the West, and this has to do more with cultural perception than any sort of biblical fact, is the idea that quote unquote fallen angels are these ugly, grotesque, demonic looking beings, like they look reptilian or something, or they have horns and whatever. There's no indication that that's true anywhere. That's certainly not a biblical concept. That's a Western traditional concept, because we ascribe their qualities, the attributes that they're cunning and they're deceptive and they're evil. These are malevolent beings, and so we portray them, traditionally, the churches portrayed them in culture as these ugly beings who embody these attributes. But I believe that these, in fact, biblically speaking, Satan is described as the most beautiful being. He was the sum of perfection, and he was absolutely beautiful, and so quite the opposite of the Western tradition. And I think that goes for Satan and the other angelic beings who defected with him from the kingdom and are now in opposition of the King of Heaven. And they're, at least in part, here on earth, and again, have been long before Adam, at least from my theological perspective and many others as well. But from my theological perspective, they've been here a long time. So let's differentiate between the Watchers who descended in the days of Jared, and who the Bible designates as the devil and his angels, the dragon and the other apostate princes, because that's what they are. These were princes in the kingdom of heaven. Okay, so what I'm trying to describe here is a kingdom, a real kingdom, not an imaginary kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom, not a interdimensional kingdom, because these are all, there may be interdimensional aspects and things like that. But I'm trying to get people to disassociate the kingdom of heaven with the fairy tale stuff, and think of it instead as a practical functioning kingdom, and that those who've defected from that kingdom before the creation of Adam, in other words, angelic beings who defected from that kingdom, are still here with us today and perhaps elsewhere. And that those beings, according to the Bible, are still active in the world. And so, from my point of view, these beings are, they are very comely. They look, we look like them, these angelic beings, which is apparent in the biblical narrative, every time human beings encounter angels in the narrative. And when I am stressing narrative, because you have the narrative of the Bible, and then you have the prophetic content. The prophetic content is a world of symbolism. This is, you know, when the prophets are having these visionary experiences, they're either A, in a trance or B, dreaming. They never go anywhere. They're in a trance or they're dreaming. So just like in a dreamscape, everything you encounter in a dreamscape, in as much as it means anything, is symbolic. So this is a world of symbolism and communication, the world of what I'm calling the prophetic, right? So set that aside. But the narrative, what I refer to as the narrative, the biblical narrative, is the actual story. I'll give you an example. Abraham encounters angelic beings in the narrative, not in a vision, not in a trance, in the actual narrative of the story. Abraham encounters a group of angelic beings, and he has dinner with them. He sups with them. He interacts with them, just like we interact with each other, and they look like us. They look human. They're not human, but they look human. His nephew Lot encounters angelic beings who come to extract him and his family before the destruction of Sodom. And what does he do with these beings? He eats with them. He has dinner with them. And then they escort him out of the city, and the city is destroyed. So what I'm trying to establish here is, is that these beings that we describe, again, I'm coming from a Christian perspective, the beings that we describe, that we call angels in the Bible, we have a false perception of what these beings are, what they look like and what they do. And that perception comes from tradition. It's not extracted from the biblical narrative. Rather, it comes from church tradition and just Western tradition in general. And in the Western tradition, of course, we're all familiar with the depiction of cherubim in the Catholic Church, in Roman Catholicism, which depicts them as little chubby toddlers basically with little wings. It's absurd. That's absurd. It's not what cherubim are. That's not how they're described in the Bible. And even the way they're described in the Bible is symbolic. So because that's within that visionary context. But angels, whenever they're actually interacting with mankind in the narrative, they look very much like we do. And they don't have wings. Angels do not have wings. And in fact, there are these vehicles that are described in the Bible. And I'm not talking about Ezekiel's wheel. Because Ezekiel's wheel, we're going to relegate that to the trance visionary stuff, the dreamscape stuff because that's what that was. It's symbolic. So I don't think Ezekiel's wheel is a UFO. However, in the narrative, you have these other vehicles that are called the chariots of God or the chariots of Israel or the chariots of fire. They're described variously, but the same thing. And these are very ambiguous, but these are clearly some kind of vehicle of conveyance. And I'm old enough to know that horses don't fly. And the Bible doesn't oblige me to believe that horses fly. Because when you think of a chariot, obviously, a chariot is the most advanced vehicle of conveyance in the mind of the Iron Age writer, right? There's nothing that's more advanced than a chariot. That's it. I mean, that's like the Ferrari of their time. So chariot is pulled by horses. So if you're trying to describe a vehicle that is advanced, you might describe it as a chariot. A chariot of fire or chariot of God or chariot of Israel. And so I do believe that these beings, these angelic beings, A, as I said earlier, they look like us. Why do they look like us, by the way? Something I mentioned earlier. Because they're our siblings. They're the older siblings. They're the sons of God that pre-exist us. That Adam's created to be a son of God. So it's a family. Clearly, it's a family. We were supposed to be part of it. We were part of it in the beginning, but we've been sundered from the family, divorced from the family of God. This is a great tragedy of our story. We were sundered from the family, subjected to decay and degeneration. But the good news is, and this is what the good news, what I alluded to earlier, is that there's a way back in through Christ. He brings us back and restores us back into the family of sons. So these other sons of God, the morning stars, remember that we're singing together, and the sons of God shouting for joy before mankind was created. That because we're members of the same family, we bear the same image. We look similar to one another, and I would go further than that. I would say, based on everything we've discussed here from The Book of Enoch in Genesis 6, we're so alike that we're genetically compatible. We can copulate. We can procreate. That's exactly what we're doing in The Book of Enoch. That's exactly what's happening in Genesis 6. The sons of God are procreating with human women. So I just choose the path of least resistance here. It's because they're genetically compatible. One thing I didn't mention when we're talking about those sons of God, was that the impetus, what I call the first cause of the Watcher's defection, was lust. They lusted, The Book of Enoch says, and this is what the Genesis 6 implies. They lusted after the daughters of men. They were sexually attracted to human women. Well, we can extrapolate then that they have the male machinery, right? Because if you're just some wraith or you're just some spiritual being, how do you lust? How are you consumed with lust after the female form? Then furthermore, how do you copulate with a woman and procreate? So again, I just take the path of least resistance. I add up all of these data points from the biblical narrative, and I conclude that we are the younger sibling, they're the older sibling. I call them the elder race in my book. By the way, that's a wink and a nod to JRR.

Speaker 2:
[83:35] Tolkien.

Speaker 1:
[83:36] Remember the Eldar in The Lord of the Rings and the Silmilarian were the elves, for the high elves, who were somewhat related to humans and could certainly copulate with them. So, but that's not exactly from where I derived the idea, I derived it from the biblical text, that we are the younger sibling. So, why am I building, I'm building this structure here so that I can begin to build on top of it. So, what I'm trying to depict here is that there's a faction of beings, perhaps one of many, that are pre-exist us. They look like us, rather we look like them. They're more magnificent than we are. King David said in the Psalms that mankind was created to be a little lower than the heavenly beings. So, these are those heavenly beings. We were members of the same family, that's why we literally look like each other. We bear the image of our father. Who's the express image, according to the scriptures, the express image and likeness of the father? The son of God. So, basically, we look like the son of God, who's the preeminent son. So, we are genetically compatible, we can copulate, and so I'm depicting a class of beings, angels, who are technologically advanced, who use, utilize technology, dare I say, flying saucers, who have knowledge that is much older than any knowledge on earth, much more advanced, who come from a kingdom, the Bible describes as the kingdom of heaven, a literal kingdom with a king and a council and courts, and courtiers, and couriers, and armies. The most common name for Yahweh in the Old Testament is Lord of Armies, Lord of Hosts. That means Lord of Armies. So you have angelic armies. When I was a kid, I always thought, how do you have supernatural armies? How do they do battle? Because I was thinking of it as supernatural, which means above and beyond nature. I've since changed my view, and I believe there is precisely one supernatural being in the universe, and that is the Father, God, Supreme. Everything else, everybody else is subjected to the laws of nature, equally so. So, you have this functional kingdom from which these beings come. Now, so you have this faction of beings, the angelic faction, the sons of God, the morning stars. These are all the same. I'm using those terms analogously for these beings, and we look like them. They're used technology, they speak a language, and then you have a group of them that defected. Those are the quote unquote fallen angels. That's the group that defects from the kingdom. Those are the beings who are in opposition to the king of heaven on earth, opposition to his kingdom, opposition to mankind, corrupting, always seeking to corrupt and cause mankind to become disaffected with the kingdom of heaven and to sin against God and to reap the repercussions, which is what they were doing with Israel. And these beings are here. So those beings speak the same language as the unfaithful fallen angelic beings. Speak the same language as the faithful ones. They look the same. They use the same technology. So again, what I'm doing here is I'm creating this structure upon which, coming from a Christian perspective, to be able to understand the phenomenon without reverting to supernaturalism.

Speaker 2:
[87:51] What do you think they want to do with humanity now? Do they have intentions for us?

Speaker 1:
[87:55] Oh, yeah. There's no question about it. I mean, from a biblical perspective, the enemies of God, first and foremost, are in opposition to everything that God desires. Almost their job is to lead mankind astray into apostasy, to cause mankind to transgress and to destroy us, and by doing so, to do injury to God. That's part of what they do. This is all building, this is all crescendoing. This is the crescendo of my book Birthright. The culmination is Armageddon. Armageddon is so often interpreted as a war with Israel, but if you really pay attention, Armageddon is a war with the Son of God returning to the earth, and I believe that's a kinetic war. So I think that literally these fallen sons of God, these apostate sons of God are slowly building, eventually they're going to be building an army. They're amassing the technology, they're building an army, they're leading humanity into a post-human condition, and the objective is to usurp dominion of the earth and resist the Son of God returning to the earth. Now, I understand that, you know, that's a very theological position. So your viewers who aren't coming from a biblical perspective may think that that's absolutely absurd. However, from a biblical perspective, that's absolutely accurate. So yes, there's a conflict coming, and all of this is mounting towards that conflict, that ultimate conflict between good and evil. And so those beings are at work in the earth. They've been here for a very long time. So let me make this really practical for people, and then I'll shut out. Let me make this really practical.

Speaker 2:
[89:59] I love it.

Speaker 1:
[90:04] So you probably were. I'm a person who is completely, utterly convinced of the nuts and bolts reality of the UFO phenomenon. Because I myself have seen a UFO right above my car, 40 feet above my car, a UFO. I think it was an ARV, but nevertheless.

Speaker 2:
[90:25] Where was this?

Speaker 1:
[90:26] Brook Park, Ohio. Wow.

Speaker 2:
[90:29] Is that near Wright-Patterson?

Speaker 1:
[90:31] No, it's near the John Glenn NASA Research Center, and also, well, yeah, the NASA Center there.

Speaker 2:
[90:37] So you think it was possibly human reverse engineered?

Speaker 1:
[90:41] So I'll digress into this really quick, because this does sort of illustrate the point I was about to make. So this was during a time, this was probably, my God, I don't know, 14 years ago. I don't know, I always probably say a different number, because I'm really bad with numbers and dates and stuff. It was before, I currently live in Montana. It was before I moved to Montana, I was living in Brook Park, rather Cleveland, Ohio, where I was born. I was born in Brook Park, Ohio. And I had just returned a year or two previous to that from Peru. I lived in Peru for about 10 years. And I was living in Cleveland, and not far from my brother-in-law. And he and I would always work out in his basement. And we'd always lift weights in his basement. And I would say more often than not, the topic of conversation was UFO stuff. And we were deep into Lazar and just kind of kicking around what the reverse engineered technology would look like. And all of that sort of stuff, talking about gray aliens, talking about sort of all the euphological lore. That was more often than not, the topic of conversation. And he's an inventor. And so he liked to think about like, maybe what some of the anti-gravitics look like and stuff like that. And so one day, probably was the top topic of conversation this evening. We were working out in his basement and he wanted to run over to the suburb of Brook Park, Ohio, which is that's where I actually grew up was in Brook Park, Ohio. And so we hopped in my car and this was probably, we were trying to get there before close. I think it closed at 9 o'clock. This was in February. Really, it was really cold outside and it was really windy this particular night, like really, really windy. And we jumped in my car and we drove over to Brook Park and we went to the Brook Park strip mall. The Brookade, it was called Brookade strip mall. I don't know if it's still there to this day, but I used to ride my bike around there. I'm very familiar with this area. And then, you know, not far from there is the airport in the John Glenn Center, the NASA Center, and there's also a reserve, what do you call it, the Army Reserve or whatever it's called, the base close by.

Speaker 2:
[92:58] Air Force Base or Army Base, okay.

Speaker 1:
[93:00] Yeah, and National Guard.

Speaker 2:
[93:03] National Guard.

Speaker 1:
[93:04] National Guard. And so we're, it's dark outside, it's probably 8.30 or so. And we're pulling up to the Brook Park, Brook Gate shopping strip mall. And there's this light and we gotta go through the light, then you go into the parking lot and we're stopped at the light. And we're both kind of just, we're just talking. I remember he was talking to me about some invention he had related to like a toothbrush. I can't remember that. And as he's talking, we're just kind of looking ahead and we see this thing, this craft, hovering above the corner store. And it's got really bright lights. And we immediately thought it was a training exercise from the National Guard. That's what we thought. Oh, look at that. There's a helicopter. It's a training exercise. It was big. I thought it was like a Chinook or something, or like a Blackhawk. And we were just sort of, you know, amazed that they're hovering that low over the building. It was probably only 30 feet above the building. And so we rolled our windows down because we thought we were going to hear the telltale sound of blades whipping through the air. Nothing. And we were close enough. We should have heard it. And we, it was windy, granted. And we looked at each other like, uh-oh. So I go through the light. There's hardly anybody in the parking lot because it's almost, everything's almost closing, right? We're rushing to get to the store. Probably 845 by now. Pull into the parking lot. And I don't even like park. I just throw my vehicle into park. Because this craft that was hovering above the corner store, it lifts up in the air and effortlessly glides right over my car. But it wasn't directly above, it was in front. So that it like positioned itself so I could get a full view of it through my windshield. So it was in front but above. And then it descended to about 40 feet. And it was immediately apparent to me and my brother-in-law that this was not National Guard. This was not anything conventional. It was reminiscent of the F-117 Nighthawk fighter. It had sort of that angular body armor, a little bit of that. And it was like a grayish green, dark color. Although it was hard to tell because it was nighttime. It had really bright triangular lights. I remember two. My brother-in-law remembers one. But triangles, lights, white. And then it had a series of, I think, green and blue lights around the perimeter, the bottom. And it didn't have wings. It had little stubby protrusions in the place of wings. And it was kind of shaped like a diamond. And it didn't really have sharp angles. It was very smooth. There was no visible windshield or anything like that. No markings. There was no propulsion system to speak of, no engines, no propellers, nothing like that at all. Again, it just had little stubby protrusions in the place of wings. It was not aerodynamic, is what I'm trying to say. And we rolled our windows down to listen to hear if there's any noise of an engine. Nothing, completely silent. All we heard was the wind. The wind was so strong that it was rocking my car like this. The gusts of winds are rocking my little Kia Sportage, I think is what I had at the time. And this thing just, like I said, descended and just hovered there like I was supposed to see it. And we're just staring at this thing. I remember saying, the only thing I could say was, Tony, that is some top secret. And then we're just staring at this. And then suddenly, like I'm thinking, I have a flip phone at the time, he has a smartphone. I'm thinking, get a picture, get a video of this thing. So I said, Tony, your phone, your phone. And he like he's coming out of a trance, and he starts looking for his phone in his pocket. He finds his phone, pulls it out, drops it on the ground. So he bends over to pick up his phone, right? To get a picture or footage. And as he's bending over, I mean, we probably were staring at this thing for at least 30 seconds, which is a long time, maybe even a minute or two. I don't remember. We had a long look at this thing. And as he's fidgeting on the ground to find his phone, the craft lifts up into the air. Again, it is so windy and I failed to mention, the craft is completely unaffected by the wind. Completely. As if it's in its own atmospheric bubble. Lifts up into the air and then it begins to turn effortlessly. And by the time he gets his phone up, it's moving away. And it's just gliding away. And we jump out of the car and it is, I just remember jumping out of the car, getting blasted in the face with ice cold wind. And by the time he got his phone up, it was descending over the horizon, like over, behind the houses. Toward the NASA, John Glenn Center, by the way. Right in that direction. No, again, it had no insignia, no air force insignia. It was not a helicopter. It was the size of a Chinook or a Black Hawk helicopter. No insignia, no propellers, no noise, no propulsion system, no windshield. Was it a drone? I don't know. Whatever it was, it was not using conventional technology. That's for sure. I mean, when a Harrier jet takes off, if there's vehicles below it, it blows them out of the way, right? This thing, nothing. I don't know why, but I concluded that I was looking at what people call ARVs, Alien Reproduction Vehicle. I don't know why. I can't say, I don't know why, but I got the distinct sensation that this was ours, this was, but that the technology was exotic. I don't know. That was just a feeling, which doesn't mean much, but that's what I saw. And that was it for me, okay? So everything that I had been learning about in the realm of ufology, right, was suddenly concretized in that moment. Now that doesn't mean that everything's true, but it means the phenomenon is real. One hundred percent. We've got advanced technology. Now whether we took some divergent path from Nikola Tesla and built it ourselves, or whether we derived some of this technology from crash retrievals, which is what I believe. In fact, I would say I know that to be true at this point in my life. The phenomenon is real, the technology is real. People are in possession of it and are utilizing it, are deploying it. And that really, like I said, it concretized the whole thing in my mind way back then. And so moving forward from that position, I wasn't struggling and choking on aspects of ufology like a lot of people do because they've never seen anything. I was able to just have this baseline understanding that, yeah, there's some aspect of this is absolutely real.

Speaker 2:
[100:19] Do you think this Biblical fallen angel idea accounts for all of the phenomena that we see?

Speaker 1:
[100:27] Okay. That's a very good question. So this loops us right back into what I was saying, which was that I established that I believe that the good guys and the bad guys look the same. We look like them. They come from an advanced ancient civilization that pre-exists us, biblically speaking. And some of them are loyal to the king of heaven and some of them are in opposition to him. So you have the quote unquote good angels and fallen angels, right? Loyal sons of God, disloyal sons of God. And they're both operating, I believe, with the same technology. So like I said earlier, we established that the Watchers are a separate group from, I believe they're the same species, so to speak, but they're a separate group. So when the Watchers descended to Mount Hermon, I believe that they were at the helms of advanced aerospace vehicles. I believe that the technology of this civilization is exceedingly advanced. So some of what we see out there is, for lack of a better term, angelic technology. That's the way that I would describe it. Now, some of that technology is being piloted by good guys, and some of that technology is being piloted by bad guys. But the technology itself, you cannot ascribe motive to a piece of hardware. You can't say that that piece of hardware... You know, flying saucers is no more good or evil than my truck.

Speaker 2:
[101:59] So you would say, as below, so above, they're good and bad people, and they're good and bad...

Speaker 1:
[102:05] Just like on Earth. Yeah, there's factions of human beings, and some of us do good and some of us do evil, but we're the same species, and we use the same technology.

Speaker 2:
[102:15] So this is interesting, because it's almost... You know, we've heard people like Jacques Vallee talk about connecting the modern phenomena with sort of biblical elements. And then you also have people like Hal Putoff, who actually lives out here in Austin, who wrote an interesting paper about the Silurian hypothesis, these ultra terrestrials, so survivors of an ancient cataclysm. And you're sort of combining them.

Speaker 1:
[102:41] Well, so that's the first. That's just a component of the phenomenon. Do I believe that describes a totality? No, it does not describe the totality of the phenomenon.

Speaker 2:
[102:52] I'm glad you're saying that, because I agree. I think it's every time we try to explain everything.

Speaker 1:
[102:57] No, I don't believe that describes a totality of the phenomenon. I think that's an aspect of the phenomenon. These beings we call angels in the biblical narrative. Angel, by the way, is just a occupational descriptor in the Bible. It just means messenger and envoy, one who is sent. It doesn't give us any insight into the nature of those beings.

Speaker 2:
[103:16] Often, they're terrifyingly violent.

Speaker 1:
[103:19] Well, the bad ones are certainly.

Speaker 2:
[103:21] Yeah, or even depends on where, like in the Old Testament, sometimes they're violent, but it's in this moralistic.

Speaker 1:
[103:30] They eviscerated Sodom and Gomorrah, how do they do that?

Speaker 2:
[103:33] I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[103:34] Maybe there was a saucer hovering above that thing. Yeah. This is very difficult, and it was difficult for me in the beginning to retool my mind.

Speaker 2:
[103:47] Yeah, but to challenge anybody who's like, we're talking about stuff that's serious now and that the government's talking about, but in the past, all of this is extremely speculative, and you have to, if you have these ancient traditions that are all triangulating towards a common truth and you have eons. I mean, literally, I think Jacques Vallee is this really important godfather of modern UFO research.

Speaker 1:
[104:14] I agree.

Speaker 2:
[104:16] You read Wonders in the Sky, you read Passport to Magonia, you have to take this trans-historical, trans-cultural idea. This isn't just post-Roswell nuclear-age American stuff happening.

Speaker 1:
[104:28] That's right. This is where I like to draw delineations here. What I've described is one faction, one aspect of the phenomenon. But I don't think that that describes the totality of the phenomenon. What I mean by this is, if I know because I'm so convinced of the biblical narrative, I know that that faction exists, this angelic faction, and that they're in the game. They're major players in the game here. But also, being a eager ufologist for all these years, I know that gray aliens exist. I know I say that definitively, but I think the evidence is overwhelming. The reason why I say the evidence is overwhelming, primarily it's not because of the whistleblowers and all of the crash retrieval stuff, Leonard Stringfield, all the stuff he compiled, although all of that is compelling. What pushes me over the edge is alien abduction. That's what pushes me over the edge in regard to gray aliens. I have too many friends and associates who've seen them, and touched them, and have been taken by them.

Speaker 2:
[105:42] Yeah, the amount of people out there who have been taken, have implants with the implants of isotope ratios that don't occur on Earth. That's right. Roger Lear was literally extracting them from bodies.

Speaker 1:
[105:54] Many.

Speaker 2:
[105:55] Many.

Speaker 1:
[105:57] Andy captured one of the best UFO, and I don't know what you think about it, but one of the best UFO videos I've ever seen.

Speaker 2:
[106:03] I've never seen this. You haven't?

Speaker 1:
[106:06] You have seen this one.

Speaker 2:
[106:07] Maybe.

Speaker 1:
[106:07] I think it was in Lebanon. I can't remember the details, and it looks like a craft. You can see grays inside of it.

Speaker 2:
[106:14] Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[106:15] And people say that that's been debunked, and other people say it hasn't been debunked.

Speaker 2:
[106:20] I didn't know that was his video.

Speaker 1:
[106:21] Yeah, Roger Lair captured that. Isn't that weird?

Speaker 2:
[106:24] That's wild.

Speaker 1:
[106:25] Here's the guy pulling implants out of people, pictures that video. So, now whether or not that video has actually been debunked, I don't think so. I think it's one of the most compelling videos I've ever seen.

Speaker 2:
[106:37] Is it Lebanon or is it Turkey?

Speaker 1:
[106:39] Turkey. Somewhere in there, somewhere in that area. I don't remember where it is. They're looking over the ocean.

Speaker 2:
[106:44] No, it's an amazing video.

Speaker 1:
[106:45] Yes. It looks like these big bulbous headed gray aliens in there.

Speaker 2:
[106:49] Nobody's ever conclusively debunked it. As with a lot of imagery, it's like you have the negatives and nobody can conclusively say it's fake.

Speaker 1:
[106:56] Long before the age of AI.

Speaker 2:
[106:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[106:58] So, I don't know. But Roger Lehrer was awesome. Yeah. Implants are so overlooked. I mean, it's like, by the way, this is oftentimes my conversation with some of the congressional people I interact with. Like, you want evidence?

Speaker 2:
[107:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[107:15] There's a lot of people walking around with exotic material, technological material in their bodies.

Speaker 2:
[107:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[107:23] There's no question about it. I mean, this is the aspect of ufology where you can mine the most physical material evidence is the abduction stuff.

Speaker 2:
[107:35] Yeah. It's so strange. You know, I interviewed Whitley Strieber and you could say what you want about some of his stories or his book or his writing background, whatever. I felt an implant in his ear and I don't think he's putting it in his own ear or behind the ear. Yeah. And all he's doing that for show. Yeah. It's right here. It's at the top of his ear and it's so strange. And then I just did a show with my buddy Chris Ramsey runs this great podcast called Area 52. We had this guy come up on stage and he had an experience when he was a child and he has something very similar in his ear and he could put a magnet externally on it and it'll stick there. It's so strange.

Speaker 1:
[108:12] Most people who have implants, most of them are generally located somewhere in the head, although people have had them all over. Roger Lair extracted implants from knees and whatever. And my colleague and good friend, Eli Marsulli, worked with Lair and was there when they extracted some of these implants. And he would describe to me how some of these implants were evasive. They move and they're not rejected by the body. They don't cause swelling. They migrate around the body. But many abductees have ejected them unintentionally from their nasal cavity. They'll have a bloody nose and they eject an implant.

Speaker 2:
[108:49] A little BB will come out.

Speaker 1:
[108:51] A little BB will come out and they're shaped variously. Like some of them look like tiny little pills oblong, some of them are round, whatever. And I think Lyric concluded that they had some sort of nanotechnology in them.

Speaker 2:
[109:03] Yep.

Speaker 1:
[109:04] Some very, very sophisticated technology. And it's like, that's physical evidence.

Speaker 2:
[109:10] It is physical evidence.

Speaker 1:
[109:11] That's physical evidence. And not only that, and I know we're diving into alien abduction, but not only that because before I dive into alien abduction, let me just wrap up what I say real quick. So I said that the angelic stuff doesn't account for the totality of the phenomenon.

Speaker 2:
[109:25] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[109:25] Because I look at the gray alien faction. Again, I'm very, very persuaded that that faction is real. And you have the little grays. People think they're automatons of some kind, maybe artificial intelligence or something. I like to think of them as cybernetic clones. And they're, to me, from my perspective, they seem to be clearly created by the insectilens. You know, what Dr. David Jacobs ascribes as insectilens, the mantid beings. In my estimation, that's the biological species, the organic species, and they're making the little grays. And there's not just little grays. I mean, there's big grays too. I mean, from, you know, from ufological lore at least. And the little ones are the ones that come to retrieve the abductees. So that's a faction. And so when I say these things and I talk about angelic beings, people conflate the two. Like they think I'm saying that the grays are the angelic beings. I am not. I just want to make that clear.

Speaker 2:
[110:19] What do we think the grays are?

Speaker 1:
[110:21] So I don't know. I have no idea what gray aliens are, but or where they come from. You know, are they crypto terrestrial? Are they, by the way, you mentioned something really interesting, the anti-diluvian hypothesis that maybe some people from like an Atlantean civilization escaped and maybe went off planet or under the earth. And then now they have this advanced technology that they developed a long time ago. And they're still here, right? I love that idea. I don't know if it's true, but I think I find it intriguing. I find it intriguing. Now, one thing I think we can say about the Grays definitively is that wherever they come from, they have bases here now. So let's say there was a forward operation of Grays that came years ago. Well, they established bases a long time ago, just like we would. If we were coming, by the way, for a hostile purpose, we would come and we would establish a forward operating base. And in anticipation for more of us coming later, right? And so those forward operating bases would be established in the areas that human beings would least look for them, or be able to discover them, which would be at the bottom of our oceans, under the ground, underground bases. And certainly, at this point in time, I would say that it's much more likely to be true than not. Let's put it in very generous terms, that these bases exist, specifically the grays. And maybe there's mobile bases, the 4chan stuff that I've seen of mobile bases.

Speaker 2:
[111:54] Mobile construction units.

Speaker 1:
[111:55] That's right. And they're creating these craft to spec, which I think is, again, wildly intriguing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it seems to comport to a lot of the data. Then the other stuff about how the grays excrete, they excrete waste out of their skin. They smell like ammonia and sulfur. That's why people say, and people, sometimes Christians say, well, they smell like sulfur, so therefore, they're from hell. Right. They smell like ammonia and sulfur, which is like urine coming out of your skin. That's what that would smell like. If you're excreting your waste through your skin, you would expect it to smell like ammonia and then like that sulfuric smell. I could imagine that if you're dealing with beings that are excreting waste through their skin. They don't have sexual organs. They don't appear to have tongues or they might have palates in their mouth, but they don't appear to have teeth. Their organs appear to be different from Mars. But they are clearly physical beings because they crash and die. I've got a friend who is an abductee and she actually, in one of her experiences, she actually grabbed one by the neck, squeezed it before she passed out in one of her abduction episodes. She said it felt leathery like a snake, like the skin of a snake, cold, clammy leathery. Wow. So the popular idea today is that some people don't think that these are actually sentient beings, that they're just meat suits either for artificial intelligence or in the Christian community, it's very popular to say they're meat suits for demon, demonic spirits. I don't subscribe to that theory myself, but I think, as I said, I would describe them as cybernetic clones. The reason why I would describe them that way, I know we're like diving into gray. I don't know if you want to talk about this. I love it.

Speaker 2:
[113:45] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1:
[113:46] But the reason why I would describe them that way is because they do appear to have, according to abductees, they do appear to have personalities, vague personalities, but personalities nonetheless. Why do I say that? Because in the abduction material, you find abductees who can recognize the grays, or they can perceive their age, like this one's older, this one's female, that one's male, even though they don't have sexual organs. There's a personality that they're picking up on, even though the grays are very robotic and dispassionate, stoic.

Speaker 2:
[114:22] Do you have any sense, because I know you've looked at David Jacobs, Carla Turner, John Mack, all these amazing- Bud Hopkins. He was really the greatest compiler of all this stuff. Do you come out of looking at that research with any idea as to the intentions of these beings, or you do?

Speaker 1:
[114:42] Yes. I think that so. Bud Hopkins was just documenting the phenomenon. As an objective observer, maybe subjective sometimes. He did get very enraptured in the lives of the abductees. But brilliant, brilliant researcher. I'm going to separate out John Mack, who I have tons of respect for. Love John Mack. But John Mack was much more psychologically involved in the phenomenon, like just trying to parse it from a psychological aspect.

Speaker 2:
[115:12] He was on the fence about it being physical.

Speaker 1:
[115:16] But nevertheless, he laid a lot of groundwork. Him and Bud, I don't know if you can still find these. Have you ever seen the interactions, the dialogues between Bud Hopkins and John Mack?

Speaker 2:
[115:26] I don't think I have.

Speaker 1:
[115:27] Really fascinating. Both men were just complete gentlemen. Both of them were extremely intelligent guys. Both of them very objective. They're never arguing. They're just having dialogue. Some awesome UFO content that's not seen very often anymore. You could probably still find it on YouTube. Just I have a ton of respect for both those guys. But Bud Hopkins was documenting the physical reality of the abduction experience, missing time, the table procedures, all that stuff. Then enter Carla Turner, who was herself a student of Bud Hopkins from Afarsh, and Barbara Bartholik, who she interacted with, another great abduction researcher. What made Turner unique was that she was an abductee and her family. So now she is writing from the perspective of being an abductee. Her family was subjected to both alien abduction and my labs, military abduction. Carla Turner stuff is so fascinating. I love Carla Turner. She died obviously, very aggressive cancer. I believe Hopkins died of cancer too, if I'm not mistaken. Barbara Bartholick, if I recall, died in a car accident.

Speaker 2:
[116:49] John Mack was hit by a car.

Speaker 1:
[116:50] John Mack was hit by a car. If I recall, another guy named John Mack was hit by a car in the same day, in England, something like that. Very strange circumstances. Weird. Then David Jacobs is still alive. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[117:02] I think he has dementia.

Speaker 1:
[117:03] I think so. Yeah. So, Carla Turner was-

Speaker 2:
[117:08] What's the lesson here is don't study alien abductions or something?

Speaker 1:
[117:12] Think about that. Turner said that she would say that she would be in her book, she wrote the book, Taken, she wrote the book Into the Fringe, which was a story about her family, and then of course, Masquerade of Angels, which documents the story of Ted Rice who's still alive. Turner was so fascinating because she was so, so unflinchingly objective. Even though her life was being affected by this, she would say, we don't know where they're from, and we cannot believe anything they tell us. Here's what we know. We know they take us against our will. We know that they force us to carry babies. We know that they take sperm and eggs. We know that they subject us to all kinds of invasive procedures. She was very, very, she was not like trying to put her own spin on it, which I really appreciated about Carla. We really lost an amazing researcher in Carla Turner when she died. All these new people coming to ufology, they don't read Turner, they don't read Hopkins, you know. So, but what I was going to say about Turner was, she really highlighted a couple of things, the capabilities of these beings. She referred to what something she described as virtual reality scenarios, VRSs, that these beings were in possession of technology that allowed them to fabricate virtual reality experiences so that an abductee can be seeing and hearing things in this complete virtual environment and you could have other people around them and they're not seeing the same thing. So, it's like hijacking of human perception.

Speaker 2:
[119:07] It's literally Descartes' demon.

Speaker 1:
[119:10] Yes. So, they have the ability to hijack, I think both through telepathic powers and through technology, the implants and external technology that's directed toward the abductee. So, Turner's first like, the first thing she would stress or one of the main things in her books and in her lectures was, you cannot believe these beings. You can't. You can't believe anything they're showing you. You can't even trust your own experiences when you're with them, because they control your perception 100 percent. You are under their control. That's one of the main things she would stress.

Speaker 2:
[119:49] I think that's a very healthy starting point, is how to think about all this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[119:53] It is a very healthy starting point. So, all these people established, like with Alien Abduction, John Mack and David Jacobs, and all of this really culminates in David Jacobs. Like, David Jacobs, I feel like, pulls all the pieces together, puts them together from a very objective, from a very objective perspective. He, of course, was a tenured professor of history at Temple University. So, he was approaching it as a historian. All of these people, between them, they interviewed thousands of abductees, thousands. Some of it was hypnotic regression, and some of it was like with David Jacobs, he didn't practice hypnotic regression. He just did what he called relaxation techniques. And so, all of them would, one of the things that you realize is that this phenomenon, alien abduction, their starting point, just like you said, is deception. That's the starting point of this phenomenon, deception. The program is covert. The grays don't, they don't communicate to you what the program is about. And you throw in the virtual reality scenarios that they generate. And that's not to say that the abduction experience is virtual reality. No, it's a hundred percent physical. You're literally taken from the point of abduction and brought on to an alien vessel, subjected to all the procedures that are typical of the abduction episode. But they have the power to completely hijack your perception. And in addition to that, they implant false memories. So they implant screen memories so that the real memories have to be retrieved behind that screen. So when you're dealing with beings who can do those things, you can't trust anything that they say or that you think happened. That's why-

Speaker 2:
[121:57] It reminds me of like the Jinn in Islam or like these sort of trickster, supernatural beings that implant false, literally false memories. And you think, like I think in the Jinn's case, they would like change certain verses of the Quran or whatever. And that was, you know, it's like-

Speaker 1:
[122:13] Yeah, that's sort of a typical trickery that's associated with demons. However, I love Jacques Vallee. But I would disagree that as it, and so did Dr. David Jacobs, by the way. I would guess Turner probably would have disagreed with this as well, although I don't know that for sure. Jacobs definitely, that the alien abduction phenomenon has anything to do with fairies and gnomes and sky people. I disagree. I agree with Jacobs. This is a completely different phenomenon. Now, does that mean that there weren't saucers and technology? No, no, it doesn't. I think that that sort of technology did exist in the anti-Diluvian past. I'm just saying there's a different faction in play right now, or at least another faction in play. This specific faction, the gray aliens. It's interesting because I remember, I had, and I think I said this in my book, I had personally come to the conclusion after consuming all of this abduction material from these excellent researchers, the old school guys and gals. I remember concluding that it appears to me that the abduction phenomenon must have begun somewhere around the mid to late 1800s. That was my conclusion. And I remember, and I drew that conclusion based on the fact that it seems that this phenomenon, the recollections of this phenomenon only go back to the mid 1800s, early 1900s. And I remember I was at the gym working out with my headphones on listening to David Jacobs, listen to one of his lectures. And he said in his lecture that he and Bud Hopkins, because they were colleagues and did a lot of work together, that he and Bud Hopkins had concluded that the abduction phenomenon began in the mid to late 1800s. And that it is not older than that. And I was just astounded. Like, that's precisely what I thought. And I still think that to this day. I believe that the abduction phenomenon began, let's call it the turn of the century, maybe late 1800s, early 19th century. And this is in a very interesting period of time. Because what most people don't realize about the turn of the century, the 19th century, is that there is a corresponding phenomenon happening all around the world, especially in the United States and in the West, generally speaking. It was the phenomenon of spiritualism. I was, when I wrote my book Birthright, I was resourcing articles. From the late 1800s, early 1900s. All about this, I mean, some of these are all about this phenomenon of spiritualism, this wave of spiritualism. And some of these articles said, one of these articles in particular said that it was as common at the height of this thing for an American to get up on a Sunday morning and go to a seance as it was to go to church. And so when I say spiritualism, I'm talking about, you know, basically what the Bible describes as divination. It's the seances. These are all kinds of sort of psychic acquiring of a medium.

Speaker 2:
[125:44] Yeah, mediumship.

Speaker 1:
[125:45] Mediumship. It was happening in the White House. It was extremely common. This is when you had the...

Speaker 2:
[125:51] Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 1:
[125:52] Go ahead.

Speaker 2:
[125:53] I was just going to say it would be a parapsychology started then. The Society for Psychical Research in the UK started then. You had William James and...

Speaker 1:
[126:02] Those sisters, what were their names? If they could make tables levitate and stuff like that. I forget those sisters.

Speaker 2:
[126:08] And then of course, you had Theosophy as well.

Speaker 1:
[126:11] Bingo. Right in the middle of it.

Speaker 2:
[126:12] Salons looking at, with all this occult history and this alternative history involving root races and hyperboreans and Atlanteans and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1:
[126:23] Right in the middle of it. The Theosophical Society is established.

Speaker 2:
[126:27] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[126:28] With Helena Blavatsky. And so you have this spiritualism rampant in the West, in the United States and Europe. And then suddenly, at the same time, you have the Mystery Airship Phenomenon. Literally, same time, these things, these things coalesce.

Speaker 2:
[126:51] That's fascinating.

Speaker 1:
[126:52] The movement of spiritualism and the airship phenomenon. Now, I would say a good portion, I remember talking to Richard Dolan about this, that a good portion of the Mystery Airship Phenomenon is just hyperbolic, is newspapers, periodicals at the time, just trying to one up each other, right? With sensational stories. So even considering that much of it was that, you still have incidents nestled inside of this Mystery Airship Phenomenon that are very credible, witnessed by many, many people, and that correspond to the modern UFO Phenomenon. Silvery objects flying in the sky. I think a lot of the propellers and the balloons and all that kind of stuff that people say they saw in the Mystery Airships was confabulation. Remember, nobody's flying yet. Nobody's flying yet.

Speaker 2:
[127:51] It's pretty, right, brothers?

Speaker 1:
[127:52] But you know what you have out there? Jules Verne. So you have the steampunk stuff in the minds of the observers. And so I think in many of these cases, nobody can understand. You take a piece of metal and throw it up in the sky, and you can't envision how this thing can just stay up there. It falls to the ground. So see that little shiny thing way up there? It must have balloons. It must have propellers. I think a lot of people confabulated, you know, they sort of overlaid the steampunk stuff.

Speaker 2:
[128:20] Just like chariots in the Bible.

Speaker 1:
[128:21] Just like chariots. Precisely right. So, but I think that, you know, when you, when you, when you distill the credible real sightings and you, and you, you know, you take all the cream off the top of all of the hyperbole and sensationalism, you're left with a phenomenon that is very much like what we have today. Very much like what we have today in terms of the metallic objects, the saucer, the cigar shaped craft, you know, darting around in the sky, moving at impossible speeds. And this corresponds with the, so you have, so you have spiritualism, mystery, airship, alien abduction, coalescing at the same time. And this gets us into some very bizarre territory, because I think that this gets a little theological, but I think that to some extent, we invited the phenomena, not the totality of it. I'm just talking about a sliver, the gray alien faction. Okay. And this is what people get confused with when I'm talking, they sort of jumble everything I'm saying, and not you, but a lot of people in my audience. So I've separated out the angelic faction, okay? That were here long before we were, right? They were here long before. So they've been flying around here forever. I mean, since before human beings were even created, biblically speaking. That faction is out here. We've already thrown them out into the ether. Now we're narrowing down on this other one called gray aliens, which I would say is a separate faction, a separate thing. Now, people from my community, Christians, there's some very interesting ideas out there. Some people think that the gray aliens were manufactured by that group. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I guess anything is possible. Some people think that the gray aliens are meat suits for demons. There's all kinds of ideas floating around there. Some people think the gray aliens, that faction are the watchers, whatever. There's a lot of ideas. But what I'm trying to do here is I took the sons of God, I've separated them out. Now we're focused on gray aliens. I think that the gray aliens arrived. I don't believe they're from here. I think they came here, okay? They arrived to the Earth. Maybe there were some forward groups that were here just sort of preparing. But the abduction phenomenon began, as far as I can tell, and in accord with Hopkins and Jacobs, the abduction phenomenon began in the mid to late 1800s. And I think that it had something to do, the gray's arrival had something to do. With the phenomenon of spiritualism. There's a coalescing of these two things happening. And maybe we were broadcasting something. Maybe we were, again, theologically speaking, maybe we were permitting something to happen through divination. Just speculating here. But I don't think it's coincidental that these two things dovetail.

Speaker 2:
[131:38] No. And it's really interesting. You hear about this magenta crash, 1933 in Italy. And it's being spoken about in a very official circle. This is what David Grush came out with talking about. He wasn't talking about Roswell or any of the proverbial archetypal American crashes. And then I interviewed this guy, Harold Malmgren, who is this advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he's talking about how James Jesus Angleton, who's this long time CIA counterintel guy who discusses UFOs a lot, and is probably responsible for the MJ-12 docs getting leaked. And it makes you think that maybe part of that's passage material, trying to catch Soviet spies at the time, because that was what he was obsessed with. But he was stationed in Magenta, Italy with his father, Hugh Angleton. And Malmgren is 89 when I'm interviewing him, and he is just obsessing over this idea that the Knights of Malta have something to do with this crash. And they're obviously this military arm of the Vatican, but they also have kind of...

Speaker 1:
[132:45] The headquarters of the Vatican.

Speaker 2:
[132:46] Yeah, exactly. And they have esoteric roots. They're really the heirs to the Hospitalliers, which are the kind of medic arm to the Templars. And then you hear things like the Cosmo Club had to do with UFO crash. And this is this like elite, like DC society, which was doing kind of occult stuff. And this guy, Dark Journalist, talks a lot about this stuff. But I've heard it in circles, in UFO whistleblower circles as well. And so there is something here.

Speaker 1:
[133:18] I think we're looking at the remnants of the Mystery Schools.

Speaker 2:
[133:20] Yeah, okay. And so the Mystery Schools are to the average person.

Speaker 1:
[133:25] So the Mystery Schools are secret bodies, secret fraternities, whose objective it is to preserve and recover knowledge from the antediluvian world. The knowledge that was given to mankind by the gods. That's the objective of the Mystery School is. And that's why they go back to at least the Phoenicians, the Freemasons, they trace their origins back to, well, really back to Tubercane and Cain, the first builders of cities. But even more specifically, one of their primary figure heads is Hiram Abif.

Speaker 2:
[134:02] Right?

Speaker 1:
[134:02] We referenced him earlier, who was the great artificer of the Phoenicians at the time. I believe he was part Jewish and part Phoenician. And so these Mystery Schools, the information that they keep, that they preserve, on the surface, it looks metaphysical. On the surface, it looks mythic, like the Freemasons, right? All of their, when you see, there's a video leaked recently of a Freemasonic, right? And it just looks like a bunch of adults playing dress up, right? And it is, at this point in time, that's primarily what the Freemasonic lodges are. It's a good old boys club where they dress up and act out things they don't understand. But the play acting is a mode of preservation of knowledge. So the Mystery Schools preserve knowledge in their rights and in their various mythologies. In fact, that's what mythologies do. If you were to talk to the ancient sages, for example, and this becomes apparent when you read material that's available from some of these ancient sages from Egypt and from Mesopotamia and so forth. The myth is a capsule. It is designed to encase, to preserve, like a pill. It's designed to preserve and to transmit through time, functional information, knowledge, not metaphysical for the most part. But knowledge that pertains to what we would call the sciences today and many of the myths pertain directly to astrology and actually more accurately, astronomy. So many of the myths are astronomical. The information that's encoded is astronomical. A lot of it pertains to what we call today the zodiac, precession of the equinoxes and cyclic cataclysm. These are things that were very important to the ancients. But in addition to that, there's information and knowledge that has been preserved from the antediluvian world. And without digressing into the whole history of some of these myths like the Osiris myth, they illustrate that the knowledge that's being preserved is from the antediluvian world. And by way of illustration, Osiris, according to legend, was the myth of Osiris. You'll recall that he died and his body was divided up. I can't remember how many pieces. That's a very important part of the story. I think it was 13 pieces. But that story begins by his twin brother Set, who's like the evil version of him, builds his coffin. He has this coffin built. Set wants to usurp Osiris' throne, get rid of him. Osiris is of course married to his sister wife, Isis. Set has this sumptuous coffin built. He throws a party. He says in the party, I've got this challenge, I've got this beautiful coffin. Whoever fits into it the best, most perfectly gets to keep it. But he already made the proportions to fit his brother Osiris perfectly. When Osiris gets into the coffin, Set has him sealed inside. First idea here, Osiris, a god from Zeptepe, the antediluvian world is sealed inside of a coffin. Then Set has the coffin thrown into the Nile. Here's Osiris inside of the coffin who's obviously going to die. He's thrown into the Nile, in the coffin, and the coffin floats on the Nile. What we have essentially here is an arc floating on the water with a body of knowledge inside of it from the antediluvian world. Osiris represents that body of knowledge. It's floating on the water, comes out of the mouth of the Nile. Guess where it makes its way to? Byblos, which is a Phoenician city. It goes to Byblos. It gets beached on the shore, and it gets entangled in the branches of an acacia tree. Acacia trees are a very important symbol in the mystery schools, and in Freemasonry. It gets encased in this acacia tree, so much so that you can't see it anymore. It just becomes part of the trunk. Now, Isis decides to go on the quest to try and find her husband's body, so she's going through the lands looking for her husband's body. Isis represents the objective of the mystery school. Isis embodies the adepts of the mysteries. Her job is to go and find and recover the body of Osiris.

Speaker 2:
[139:24] Looking for the Hermetic knowledge.

Speaker 1:
[139:26] For the lost knowledge. So she goes, and she finally makes her way to Biblos, and the king of that land, Melikandor, I think was his name, it just occurred to me, had taken that tree, he saw that tree and he thought it was beautiful, and he had it cut down. He had taken it and incorporated it into his palace as a pillar. Well, that's interesting. That's conveying that some of the knowledge is incorporated into the architecture of some of these palaces and temples and so forth, right? The geometry now is part of the symbolism and some of the messaging, because remember, inside of that pillar is the coffin containing the body of Osiris. So Isis looks for, she gets to Biblos looking for her husband's body, and she's able to divine that the body of Osiris is inside of the pillar. She has it cut out, takes it back to Egypt, where was the pre-flood knowledge condensed to places? Among the Phoenicians and among the ancient Egyptians. So the knowledge goes to the Phoenicians after the flood, and then from the Phoenicians to the Egyptians. You're tracing the idea here through the story. So Isis has the body of Osiris, but Set gets ahold of it again. But this time he wants to make sure it's not found again, so he chops it up, I think, in 13 pieces. That's a detail I should know. I'm pretty sure it's 13, maybe 14. I want to say 14 pieces. I don't remember.

Speaker 2:
[141:04] We forgive you.

Speaker 1:
[141:05] Yeah, you'll forgive me for that. But the number is important, I just can't recall. Like I told you, I'm really bad with numbers. So the body's been chopped up.

Speaker 2:
[141:13] You're not bad with general memory.

Speaker 1:
[141:15] It's chopped up into pieces, and those pieces are distributed all over the place, because Set wants to make sure this is never found again. He takes the phallus, chops off his phallus, and it's thrown into the Nile, and either some stories say it's swallowed by a croc, others say a big fish. So the phallus is like gone. So Isis, what does she do? She embarks on another mission to recover the various pieces of this knowledge that had been scattered abroad. She starts to recover the body of Osiris, which represents the body of anti-deluvian knowledge, which is the knowledge that was given to mankind by the gods. She begins to assemble it, but she can't find the final piece, which is the phallus, because it was eaten. So what does she do? She fabricates one. She makes an artificial phallus so that she can copulate with Osiris. She resurrects him. She puts all the pieces together. She resurrects him momentarily with the artificial phallus. She copulates with him and becomes impregnated by him. So that now she's conceiving the offspring of Osiris, which is Osiris who's going to be reborn, and that child is named Porus. And so this story communicates the objective, the modus operandi of the mystery school. It is to recover the lost knowledge of the gods, reassemble it, and resurrect their empire. Literally bring them back. And that may sound crazy and spooky and metaphysical to everybody, but I'm telling you, that's what they want to do. I told you earlier that one of the primary objectives in order to do this is to go to Mars and recover some of the knowledge there. They want to bring the gods back, and they actually believe that the gods are real.

Speaker 2:
[143:08] What's so interesting is this guy, Neil McCaslin, do you know that name? He's trending on Twitter right now, and I don't know when this comes out, but hopefully, he's found by the time this comes out, because this is a guy who's a general.

Speaker 1:
[143:22] He went missing, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[143:23] Right, Pat, and I believe ran the lab that essentially foreign material exploitation ended up with the Roswell pieces, if you believe the lore, and he was Tom DeLong's source for a lot of his stuff with Secret Machines and To The Stars Academy. He was known as this very wise guy who literally, I mean, he was AFRL, like ran Air Force acquisition. So in conventional circles is like an impressive guy. Apparently, he would talk a lot about Greek mythology. Then you hear things like Diana Pasulka, who talks to this NASA mission controller, Tim Taylor, and she talks about people in the secret space program or even conventional space program, rocketry, paying homage to the sponsors with second century Latin. Then you look at all the names of all of the missions in NASA.

Speaker 1:
[144:18] Well, all of the locales that they land their stuff on.

Speaker 2:
[144:21] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[144:23] It's all from the pantheon of the Greeks and the ancient Egyptians and the Mesopotamians.

Speaker 2:
[144:31] Yeah, it's fascinating. It's almost as if they secretly believe that those little G gods or the Greek gods or whatever your tradition is, the fallen angels, are more vital in some sense than the big G god or something. Exactly right. They're communing with them.

Speaker 1:
[144:54] That's where all of this is headed. I believe that's what I write in Birthright is the culmination of this. We were talking about this off camera. So what we're headed for here is the formulation of a new religion. I've been saying this since 2020. We are headed for the formulation of a new religion. See, everybody thought that the neo-atheism that was on the rise back in the 20 teens was just going to sweep over the Western world and basically eradicate religion. Actually, the opposite is happening now. People are becoming more religious. There's a lot of people who are becoming Christians now, but then also a lot of people who are just adopting other kinds of, or becoming spiritual, generally speaking. Then you have also now a religion of technology that the elites are obsessed with. The Silicon Valley religion that, I think it was Ray Kurzweil when they asked him, do you believe in God? Not yet. In other words, we're going to create God, artificial intelligence. This is a religion of the technology.

Speaker 2:
[146:01] He has Noah, Uval, Harari writing that homo deus, that's our next incarnation, is like when man becomes like God or something.

Speaker 1:
[146:09] In 100 to, what does he say, 100 to 120 years from now, there will be no more human beings left on planet Earth. What he means is that the human species is going to evolve. This is directed evolution, right? So we're going to direct the evolutionary ascent of our species using technology. This is the first time we've ever been able to do this. We are now building the tools that are going to give us the capability to modify the human biology wholesale and integrate cybernetics, artificial intelligence, and then also something most people don't realize is coming, is the genetic revolution. Artificial wombs, designer babies all coming along with robotics, advanced robotics and everything else. Some of it's here, right? Artificial womb technology I think is here. It's just some of these things that there's a moral gray area that there's some legislating that has to be done and some of these barriers that have to be surmounted before this stuff hits the commercial market. But the point is that what I see is a convergence of two things happening. I see a new religion being formulated and it's going to combine the convergence of these two ideas. One is a very ancient idea. This is at the core of the Mystery Schools. It's called apotheosis. Apotheosis is the deification of man, man becoming like the gods. That's what apotheosis is. The second component is theism, a belief in the gods. So the religion of the future in my estimation is this. The gods of old actually exist and we shall become like them. That is the religion of the future. What do I mean by the gods? They're going to show up in UFOs. The gods are coming. I think this is going to be a component of our going to Mars. I think there's going to be a revelation of Mars that's going to happen in our lifetime, what we talked about before, that there was in fact an ancient extra-terrestrial civilization on Mars and that the gods of the ancients were actually extra-terrestrial beings. Of course, the claim will be also that Yahweh was one of these extra-terrestrial beings. And then furthermore, culminating by the way, I'll remind you from my point of view, culminating in Armageddon. So the idea is going to be, and this is by the way going full circle back to the beginning of the story, where Eve is being tempted by the serpent, Enidion. And what does the serpent say to her? If you eat of this fruit, you will not surely die. You will become like the gods. So it's going full circle back to the beginning. So you're going to have a scenario in which, again, in my estimation, from my perspective in which it becomes apparent that the gods of Yor were these real extraterrestrial beings and the god of the Hebrews is one of those. And he happens to be the tyrant. And so the gods are going to lead humanity into a kinetic war. And really it's post-humanity. I know this sounds crazy, but I do build and I don't keep referencing Birthright just to promote it. But really I do build a, it sounds crazy, but you can build a logical progression to this reality. And part of this reality is what I call the post-human apocalypse. And what I mean by post-human apocalypse is precisely what Harari says, that in the future, the majority of the populace on planet Earth will be post-human, will no longer be homo sapiens sapien. In other words, will no longer be the offspring of Adam and Eve, biblically speaking. They're going to forfeit the body of Adam, so to speak, and with it the birthright of Adam, which is dominion of the Earth, in favor of this Faustian bargain, in favor of life extension, in favor of living forever. And there's indications in the biblical text that this is in fact going to happen. I mean, in the Book of Revelation, you have a group of people who are, when everything is coming apart in the Book of Revelation, when basically the judgment of God is befalling on Earth, you have a group of people who cannot die and who are calling for the rocks to fall on them and crush them because they can't die. Very interesting. I mean, you can imagine a scenario, maybe not that far down the road in which we perfected nanotechnology. Maybe, I don't know if this is possible, we're uploading our consciousness into artificial bodies, maybe nanotech bodies, maybe robotic whatever. Combination of all these technologies. See, the culmination of these technologies, make no mistake about it, the culmination of the technologies is to redesign human biology. It is to create homo deus. It is to create, to build the ubermensch. It is, that's the Friedrich Nietzsche. That is the impulse of evolution. Friedrich Nietzsche, obviously the famed philosopher. Friedrich Nietzsche was a proponent of evolution, but he didn't like evolution by natural selection. Why? Because Darwinism, evolution by natural selection, has no purpose, right? It's purposeless, it's blind. Nietzsche didn't believe evolution was blind. He believed that evolution had a purpose, and the purpose of evolution was to bring forth the ubermensch, the superman, the superhuman in the earth.

Speaker 2:
[152:26] That's what I mean. It feels like post-World War II, eugenics just went underground, and you see all this stuff coming out with the Epstein files, and it's weird, man.

Speaker 1:
[152:39] It is enmeshed with the occult.

Speaker 2:
[152:42] Yeah, it feels enmeshed with the occult. It feels very transhumanist. I think the transhumanism stuff can be tricky. Like, there are things like IVF, for example, or things that are like, you know, it's probably pretty positive. You know, like modern medicine is good on the whole.

Speaker 1:
[153:00] Gene therapy.

Speaker 2:
[153:01] Gene therapy would be awesome.

Speaker 1:
[153:02] Gene therapy, you're taking, so, you know, our genomes are, we have what's called a mutational load in our genome, which means that we're copies and copies and copies and copies and copies, and every time you make those copies, you get errors in the code, right? Some geneticists believe we're headed for error catastrophe, by the way, which means we can't reproduce anymore. That's a thing that's believed quietly by population geneticists, by the way. We're going to become reproductively inviolable, enter artificial wounds. So, the idea is that you get to a point where you're reproductively inviolable because your genome has broken down to such an extent that you're dying of all kinds. We have tons and tons of genetic diseases. But I'm digressing into this. I'm sorry, I catch you wrong.

Speaker 2:
[153:53] No. It's clear to me that all of that is happening. Even the thought process of, hey, this is healing versus this is extending our brains and turning us into some post-human thing, that thought process is not occurring among elite circles. It's this reflexive desire for self-deification, for everlasting life, all of that. Then you said something else very interesting. You said that will coincide with the gods themselves returning. So there'll also be this theological element to this. So is in your prediction, because I think the prediction around elites doing transhumanist self-deification, I think that's safe. The other prediction of the return of these beings in UFOs, would you put a lot of weight in that? Do you believe that that will happen in our lifetime?

Speaker 1:
[154:49] In our lifetime, probably. Yeah. I suspect, and by the way, to complete my thought which I rambled on, I was going to tell you, I was going to agree with you, that there are certain technologies that I'm totally for. Gene therapy, the reason why I said that was because the human genome is so full of error and mutation, that you have what we know to be the correct code here, and if somebody's got a mutated gene, it leads to cancer, it leads to all kinds of sickle cell anemia. If you go over here and you take that human gene, the right code and you plug it in to the equation, it cures the disease. I'm all for that. I just want to make that clear. I'm not like a Luddite. I think you could take gene therapy human to human. The problem is when you're starting to either grab code, snippets of code that aren't human, cross species genetics, or you're creating new code and you're modifying the genome in ways that are not natural to the genome, that are not indigenous to the human genome. Just to draw that line, that delineation as it pertains to these technologies. But I believe that at some point, so here's what I see. Of course, I could be completely wrong. This is just rank speculation here. I think that we're headed for a disaster, two-fold disaster. I think that we are headed for a natural cataclysm because we're due for one. The hour is now for cataclysm based on the zodiac, and we could talk about that later based on the precession of the equinox and all of that. We are transitioning from one aeon into another. When that happens, that's called a Sunetelia, lasts for 1,000 years, and within those 1,000 years, cataclysm befalls like clockwork. Going back and referencing what we're talking about, the priests of Sais explaining all of this to Solon of Athens. That's a component over here. Cataclysm is coming. But in conjunction with the cataclysm is you have the activity of gray aliens, which we were mentioning before. The grays appear to be engineering a human-alien hybrid species that is indistinguishable from us but is not us. A species that for all intents and purposes looks just like us, but they retain the telepathic capabilities of the grays. They can control us, in other words. One of the most frightening things about, one of the most alarming things about Jacob's final book, Walking Among Us, is he documents the latest thing that the abductees were telling him from their abduction episodes, in that he called this personal project hybrids. Are you familiar with that? The personal project hybrids. So he described this as personal project hybrids because the grays have been trying to perfect a hybrid. And this progression is evident in the abduction material because in the beginning, people were encountering, abductees were encountering hybrids that were very imperfect. Their heads were too big, their hair was scraggly, their eyes were too big. They kind of look human, but they look too much like the grays. They were too short. And as the years progressed, so did the program. And you were getting more refined hybrids that looked more and more like us. Until lately, or at least when Jacobs published his book, was it 2016, somewhere around there, he was reporting these advanced human-alien hybrids that he calls hubrids. And they're so advanced that, as I said before, they're indistinguishable from us. But they retain the telepathic capabilities of the grays, and they are completely loyal. Their allegiance is to the grays, not to human beings. And so these advanced human-alien hybrids would be assigned, according to Jacobs, would be assigned to certain female abductees. So you have these male hybrids. They're assigned to female abductees. These, these Jacobs called personal project hybrids. Because the female abductee, they would have to, they would have to tutor the hybrid and teach them about life on earth. Teach them how to do mundane things. How to go into a grocery store and buy groceries without looking like a freak. How to just be out in public. How to drive a car. What a refrigerator is. What a TV is. Just the most basic things. And what's really frightening, I should use the word alarming. What's really alarming is that these, these hybrids, according to Jacobs, are psychopaths. Like these are like superhuman villains. They, they, they abuse these women sexually, but also verbally. They completely manipulate and control them. They're very violent. They beat them in certain cases. These are really, really evil people. These hybrids, according to the accounts from the, from the abductees. They're very abusive, or at least some of them. And so it makes you wonder, like, what is the end game here? Well, David Jacobs said that the end game of the abduction program was planetary acquisition by stealth. So they integrate themselves into us. It's the opposite of the Borg from, from Star Trek, right? The Star Trek and Star Trek, the Borg assimilate other factions into themself. Well, the Greys integrate themselves into our civilization. And it's a conquest by stealth. And so I think that elements of the United States government are aware of this. And I think, and certainly if you're referencing Carla Turner's work, one thing that Carla was always talking about was the fact that some of these abductees would be abducted by gray aliens. And then when they were returned to their homes, the military would show up. And then they would endure in my lab, a military abduction, which was oftentimes much more violent. And the military, according to Turner, and her husband got abducted by the way, Turner's husband was abducted by the elements of the military. They think they were brought on to Air Force bases in some cases, sometimes underground bases. And they were interviewed, and interviewed is a nice way to say it. They were, what's the word?

Speaker 2:
[161:42] Interrogated.

Speaker 1:
[161:42] Interrogated, thank you. They were interrogated in regard to what was happening on the alien vessel. What were the Grays doing? They were trying to figure out what the Grays were doing. And they're trying to use the abductees to get insight into what the Grays were doing. And because I think there's, panic had ensued by that time. I don't know what you think about this. I personally am persuaded that the Greta contract was real, that it actually happened.

Speaker 2:
[162:09] So this is this Eisenhower agreement that essentially in exchange for some tactical advantage, maybe some help with warfare or whatever, we would let the aliens do medical experiments across the United States population.

Speaker 1:
[162:28] To abduct our citizenry.

Speaker 2:
[162:30] So I don't know, but I also, if you look at the data, it seems like abduction ramped up around that time, like mid-century. So it's very interesting.

Speaker 1:
[162:41] They did. And this is what I think some of these researchers would have concluded was that yes, there was an increase in abductions. And the abduction phenomenon is exponential because it's hereditary.

Speaker 2:
[163:02] So if you know Eisenhower's granddaughter is an abductee and is like all over this issue, which is really interesting. Laura, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[163:09] So alien abduction is hereditary. And so if your parents are abductees or one of your parents, then you're also an abductee. It's hereditary. I found no exception to that rule. Now, the reason why I'm so-

Speaker 2:
[163:26] It runs in families.

Speaker 1:
[163:27] Yes, it's definitely hereditary. So the reason why I'm so interested in this phenomenon is because I interact with a lot of abductees. They come to me and they tell me their stories. And of course, I'm always aware of the fact that, you know, you got screen memories in there, you got VR, you know, VRS scenarios and so forth. You sort of have to navigate, circumvent some of that. But basically, and they're coming to me all the time. I'll probably get another wave of them after this interview. And they're all telling the same story still. Maybe there's some variation in there that I haven't picked up on. But from what I've seen, it's the same thing. It's they're being abducted and they're being integrated into this breeding program forcibly. The men are having the sperm taken, the women are having ova taken, and then there's some sort of in vitro fertilization with some exotic component, then that's reinserted into the woman's womb, or an extra uteral womb, even if the woman doesn't have a womb. She had a hysterectomy, is that what it's called? They take the womb out and then the grays create an artificial womb. These women, they carry these babies, these hybrid fetuses for about three months, right before they really start to show, and then they're abducted and the fetuses are taken out and put in gestation tanks. This is the ongoing procedure. This is what's happening. And it's still happening. I know there's a narrative out there that alien abduction isn't happening anymore. Not as far as I can tell. I have a friend, by the way, who I've known him for years. And I've always suspected that he and his kids were abductees.

Speaker 2:
[165:10] Why do you suspect that?

Speaker 1:
[165:11] Because of various experiences in dreams, dreams, things like that. Things that were indicative of alien abduction. And I never really, I think I've asked him in the past if he thought he was an abductee and he never thought he was. But the other day, this last spring, I was in my office working and he happened to be at my house. And he came in and my office were talking for a second. And then he's walking out and he stopped and he said, he turned around and he said, I forgot to tell you, they came and got me. And I was like, what do you mean? Who's they? Who came and got you? He said, the Grays, they came and got me. And then he walked up to me, pulled up his sleeve, he said, look. And he had the typical, that I don't know if you've ever seen this, the Delta formation.

Speaker 2:
[166:05] Little dots.

Speaker 1:
[166:06] The dots, the Delta formation, that a lot of abductees have. Yeah. And it had been a couple of weeks and it was fading, but it was clearly there. He said, I had this wild experience at night. He was like, I was sort of out of it and all this weird stuff. And I woke up with that. And he's like, they came and got me. And it was just like a punch in my face. I'm constantly being reminded that this thing is real and it's ongoing. And we were talking about the implants earlier too. I think all abductees are implanted by the way. And so anyway, so that's happening. And if Jacobs is correct, and I think he is, that the objective is planetary acquisition, that they're integrating these human alien hybrids indistinguishable from us into human society, right? What's the end game there? Who knows? To direct civilization in a particular way. And elements of our government know about it, then that is a clear and present danger. I mean, that is, it's like a sci-fi movie. It's like a scenario that's ultra red alert. The human species is being usurped from within, right? And so why do I bring that up? Remember, I talked about the natural catastrophe that's coming, the cataclysm, cyclic. We're due. We're in a suntalia right now. And we can talk about that more if you want later, how we know that. But we're in a suntalia. Cataclysm is going to befall. Now, that's a thousand-year window. So we don't know when exactly, but we're within the window. And then you have gray aliens doing what they're doing simultaneously. So what do I think is going to happen? I think somebody is going to show up to deliver us.

Speaker 2:
[167:47] Interesting.

Speaker 1:
[167:47] From either one of these or both of them.

Speaker 2:
[167:51] Whoa.

Speaker 1:
[167:52] And that that group will be received as the gods, returning to the earth, that these are the gods. Perhaps they'll say that they created us. They spliced our genome with Bigfoot or something, or some hominid, some ancient hominid, and that they provided some of their own genetic material, and they've been sort of guiding us through our evolution all of these centuries, all of these millennia.

Speaker 2:
[168:13] And in your view, that should be viewed as a deception.

Speaker 1:
[168:16] From my point of view, this would be the group that the Bible identifies as the man of sin. The anti-Christ, basically. Presenting himself as the Savior in place of Christ. Jesus was one of us, or I am Jesus, that sort of thing. And showing up to deceive humanity. Of course, that's a very specific point of view. It's a point of view coming from a biblical perspective. But I think, my God, I mean, the trajectory is certainly headed that way. And so, and that what happens then is humanity is, and by the way, in the Book of Revelation, this figurehead, the beast is what the Revelation calls him, right? This figurehead. The beast consolidates power on earth, governmental power on earth, and then he leads mankind into worship of the dragon. That's what happens. He leads mankind into worship of the dragon. And so, I think that the narrative that's coming is that these beings are going to show up. Wouldn't be surprised if they look like Nordics. Contrast that with the greys. You know, here's the clear enemy who's, we have no defense, by the way, against this enemy. They're far more advanced than we are. They're integrating themselves into our populous. We have a natural disaster on the horizon. These beings show up to deliver mankind from these disasters. They will be received as our extraterrestrial saviors, our progenitors, our Promethean benefactors. And then, according to my perspective, they will lead humanity, post-humanity really, lead humanity to the final stages of a post-human transformation. And then they will take the armies of Earth and their faction to literally go to war with the King of Heaven, returning to the Earth. That's called Armageddon. Now, again, I know that that may sound plausible to Christians, and it may sound utterly ridiculous to people who aren't Christians and people with different persuasions. But there is definitely a biblical case for what I just laid out.

Speaker 2:
[170:42] Yeah, fascinating. Speaking of evidence of Nephilim and this whole narrative, you're one of the few people I know who has gone deep on this phenomena of giants and giant bones and mythology around giants. But I think maybe most interestingly is you've encountered personnel in the Air Force who have fought giants in Kandahar in Afghanistan in the mid-2000s. Is that correct?

Speaker 1:
[171:12] Yeah. For me, this begins with Steve Quayle. I used to work with Steve Quayle, who's an author and really his area of research, his primary area of research was biblical giants. I was working with Steve in Montana and we created a production company called Gen 6 Productions, and we were making a film series at the time called True Legends, which was focused primarily on giants, and looking for evidence of giants and so forth. In the midst of this, Steve was contacted by an elderly woman who told him that her son had a story that he needed to hear, but her son did not want to come forward because he was still active duty. She said, my son has a story, you need to hear it, and ultimately, she was able to convince her son to come to tell Steve the story. So he got in contact with Steve. I believe they went on Coast to Coast AM with George Norrie. That's the first time that this individual story was heard. And then subsequent to that, we wanted to put him in our film, in our documentary series. And so we flew him out to Bozeman, Montana, and we interviewed him, Steve and I. He showed us his CV, his credentials. He was active duty. He was a C-130 pilot, cargo pilot. And he told us a bunch of stuff about his background. He was a fascinating guy. And just a lot of confirming data and just really demonstrating to us that he was who he said he was. And then we interviewed him. But he wanted to be interviewed in silhouette. He knew that his voice is already out there and he understood people are going to be able to put the pieces together and figure out who he was if they wanted to. But just to maybe add a little layer of making it a little bit more difficult, he wanted to be filmed in silhouette. So we filmed him in silhouette. And he told us the story that has since become known as the Kandahar Giant. It's grown into a mythology on the Internet, right? But this is where it begins. So he was a, as I said, he was a C-130 pilot and he would fly missions into Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan. And he would describe these missions as classified. And he would always often be called in to pick up high-valued assets. And he said, usually these were like Taliban guys. And so this was routine for him. And one day he's flying in there. He said in 2005, he was flying a routine mission into Bagram Airfield. He lands on the tarmac. And I've been getting this detail wrong for those who've been hearing me say this. I've been saying he disembarked from the plane and walked over to the hangar. That's not true. I double-checked the other day. He disembarks, he de-planes with his crew. And they're met on the tarmac by individuals he describes as the babysitters. And he thinks that these are Air Force intelligence or Army intelligence, something like that. And they told him right away, he said, I've never been met on the tarmac like this. I always go over to the hangar and get my cargo. And they said, this never happened, no pictures, don't ever talk about it. And as they're standing there, as he's standing of the babysitters, he sees a forklift bringing over a crate, a huge crate, an air cargo pallet, which I think they're 14 feet. I think I got that right. No, no, no, not 14. They're nine feet long. Somebody will correct me. Nine feet long by something, seven by nine, I think is what they're. They're larger than the pallets at Home Depot and they're heavier. There's dunnage under them and they're heavy. It's a nine-foot long pallet and there's something on it, and whatever's on it is covered with a tarp. He said the first thing that hit him was the odor. It was this pungent odor of like BO and death. He said it was unlike anything he's ever encountered. Then as they put this thing down on the ground, so it can be weighed and loaded into the aircraft, he realized that the tarp wasn't covering the whole thing, that parts of this thing were hanging out, and it was apparent that it was a really big dude, in his words. But it was not a normal person because it was in the fetal position, and it was hanging off the pallet in the fetal position, nine-foot long pallet, hanging off the pallet. Part of its head was, you could see part of its head, you could see its hands and its feet hanging off the pallet, and they weren't covered by the tarp. He said that the hair of this being was red, the skin was pale, white. He said it had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, and the feet were wrapped in a very primitive canvas type wrapping. He said he and the guys that were standing around the body were actually taking their boots and putting it up to the foot. He said it was twice as big as every, twice three times bigger than everybody's boot. I mean, the feet were enormous. They're all putting their feet up to the foot. He said this thing was solid as a rock. They were all tapping it on the top, and he said it was like a brick. I mean, this thing was just like solid muscle. He said it could have been some rigor mortis or whatever, but I mean, it was apparent from what you could see of this dude that he was a brick house. So-

Speaker 2:
[177:05] How tall?

Speaker 1:
[177:06] So the palate was nine feet long, and he's in the fetal position. So they estimated his size at 10 to 12 feet tall. Wow. They weighed the giant. They weighed this being because they had to weigh it. The loadmaster had to weigh it before they put it on the C-130. He weighed, the whole thing weighed, I think they told me, and I could be wrong, I think it was 1,500 pounds. And then when you subtract all the dunnage and the pallet and whatever else, I know that the final weight was 1,100 pounds. The final weight was 11,000, and he told me for sure. He said that the weight was, this thing weighed 1,100 pounds. And so you can imagine, let's say it was 12 feet tall, 1,100 pounds. So, I mean, this thing weighs more than like a Kodiak bear. I mean, it's a massive, massive guy. And then, you know, he was asking about the body, like, where'd you guys get this thing? And they told him that they had heard, they didn't know, they didn't first had knowledge. They heard that a group of guys got lost somewhere out in Afghanistan, that this group was out there, these military guys were out there doing something, recon or something like that. And they weren't reporting back in. So they sent out another group to look for him. Another team went out to look for that first team. And when that second team found them, they found them either at the mouth of a cave or in a cave, I can't remember where, but it was in the vicinity of a cave. And they were all dead. And this gigantic humanoid was eating on one of them. And they were able to kill it. They were able to take it down. So it killed the whole first team. That's what he heard. Now, again, that's what those guys had heard. So maybe that was just a rumor. But either way, the giant was airlifted from the Kandahar region and deposited at Bagram to be picked up by the pilot. And so he loaded the giant onto the aircraft, and then they transferred it to Qatar, a base in Qatar. And that's where his interaction with this being ends.

Speaker 2:
[179:20] So he was part of the transport of the body?

Speaker 1:
[179:22] Yes. And he said, he told me he heard to the grapevines. I don't know if this is true, but I heard to the grapevine that the giant ended up at Wright-Patterson. He said, I don't know if it's true, but that's what I heard.

Speaker 2:
[179:34] And he was sure that the being was dead while he was trans?

Speaker 1:
[179:37] It was dead. Yeah, it was definitely dead.

Speaker 2:
[179:41] Was it shot?

Speaker 1:
[179:42] Yes. They filled it full of ammunition. He said that it took a lot of firepower to take him down. Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[179:55] Did he sound traumatized as he's telling?

Speaker 1:
[179:58] No. He sounded very fascinated, like this crazy thing happened, here's what happened. He wasn't traumatized because he wasn't involved in the interaction with the giant when it was alive, and he didn't know if the story of it eating on guys was true. That's just what they had heard. He's like, I can't confirm that, but this is what they told me.

Speaker 2:
[180:15] Still even seeing the thing, it's like, fuck, that's really crazy.

Speaker 1:
[180:19] Yeah. Just conducting that interview with the pilot. In subsequent years, I've been able to confirm that story by several sources or have that story confirmed by several sources, and I have to be very careful because I want to protect these guys. I should say before I get into that, that my colleague who I referenced earlier, Eli Marsulli, he had a guy come to him. And this is important because this was confirmation of the story that we had heard from our pilot. Eli Marsulli had a guy come to him, a different guy. I think he was a special ops guy from the, I don't remember what branch, but he told Eli Marsulli a very similar story about the Kandahar giant. We don't know if it was the same giant or if it was a different one. But in that story, they said it was 2003 as opposed to 2005. Maybe our pilot remembered the date wrong. I don't know. Or maybe they were remembering the date wrong. But in their story, very, very similar, a team went missing, another team was dispatched to find it. They encountered this giant in a cave. And in that story, the giant skewered one of the guys with a spear. But apart from that, all the details are pretty much the same. So we don't know. LA and I don't know if it's the same story or if these are two separate stories. Sure. So after-

Speaker 2:
[181:47] Well, if there's one giant out there.

Speaker 1:
[181:49] Well, after LA told that story publicly, he put it in a film. And after he went public with it, our pilot got ahold of us again. He contacted Steve Quayle and he told Steve, and then he told me subsequently that he knows that the other story is true because he purposely withheld certain details from the story so that if somebody comes forward trying to add additional information, he could vet whether or not they're telling the truth. And he said, that guy is telling the truth. So that was kind of a confirmation from our guy that Ellie Marsulli's guy was telling the truth. Now, apart from that, I've interacted with a handful of people, some soldiers, others, officers that have confirmed to me that A, that story is true and B, there are even wilder stories, and there are more giants out there than just one, obviously. And then also, that this is one of the, that this is, this topic is one of the most highly classified, dangerous topics to broach.

Speaker 2:
[183:07] Why do you think it's so dangerous? Like, I almost suspect it's more dangerous than UFOs and crash retrievals because it's confirmation somewhat, maybe, of an origin story of human kind. Like, it really breaks Darwin. Unless you come up with some other reason as to why these giants exist, evolution of primitive to progress apes to mankind is kind of broken by this. Like, where the giants come from.

Speaker 1:
[183:35] There are some difficulties for evolution by natural selection, but not too many. I mean, they could just say that this was a divergent homo sapien species that branched off of whatever. So they could just add another branch of the tree, so to speak.

Speaker 2:
[183:51] Totally.

Speaker 1:
[183:52] Other people think that the reason why this is such a touchy subject and apparently very highly classified, the existence of giants, both in an ancient context and in a contemporary context, is because it affirms the biblical narrative. Although that's true, I don't think that's it either because it doesn't just affirm the biblical narrative like we were saying earlier, it affirms the ubiquitous testimony of our antecedents from the ancient world in general. I mean, everybody had mythologies of giants. The Egyptians did, the Mesopotamians did, the Greeks, the Romans, the Polynesians, everybody, the Inca, the Aztec, everybody.

Speaker 2:
[184:31] It would explain a lot of this megalithic architecture. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[184:33] Well, potentially, yeah. The North American Indians had legends of giants. Six-fingered red-haired giants by the way.

Speaker 2:
[184:39] Yeah. You've done some great videos on that.

Speaker 1:
[184:41] Yeah. I mean, the giants were being unearthed by the Smithsonian Institution in the mounds of America. Right during that time, what we were talking about, the spiritualism and the mystery airship phenomenon, right in that time, we're unearthing the bones of giants out from the mounds, from within the mounds.

Speaker 2:
[185:05] So if you're the Smithsonian, you're the Air Force, why hide this stuff?

Speaker 1:
[185:09] So I have my own theory here, and it may or may not be true, but I have a feeling that really what's behind this, what's behind the secrecy is the occult. Because if you know anything about the legends of giants, you'll find out really quickly that there was a cult of giants in the ancient world, especially among the Canaanites, but not exclusive to the Canaanites. And there were some things that were known about the giants. For example, it was known that the giants, in some cases, it was believed that they could be resurrected. In other cases, it was believed that, and almost universally actually, that the spirits of the giants could be contacted. Remember I said in the Book of Enoch, when the giants were killed, that their spirits departed their bodies and that they persisted in the world as vagabond wraiths, right? So those are the demons of the New Testament. And so those spirits are in the world, and occult practitioners believe that they can make contact with those spirits, either to harness their power or to extract information from them, to attempt to control them, or maybe because they're looking to possess themselves or other people. I don't know. But there's definitely, in the ancient context, there was a cult of giants. And in fact, in the areas where, biblically speaking, we know there were giants, and then archeologically speaking, I would say, we know there were giants, such as the island of Sardinia. You have, and also the island of Menorca and Spain, you have a lot of, in fact, all over much of the world, you have dolmens. You have dolmens, which are these sort of freestanding large stones, megalithic stones. Oftentimes, they're shaped almost like a little house, with like three walls and a big slab of stone on top. Various configurations of dolmens. Some of them are quite large. Many of them megalithic. I believe that the dolmens are associated with the giants, not just because they're large stones, but they're associated with the cult of giants. This is what I would describe as Canaanite or Canaanitic sorcery. More specifically, Canaanite necromancy. Because necromancy is the dark art of trying to contact the dead or resurrect the dead. This was definitely a belief in Canaan, among the Canaanites. We know because there are Ugaritic texts that have been discovered that have summoning rights, that are summoning dead Nephilim. In other words, it's like an attempt to resurrect, either resurrect dead Nephilim, re-embody them or contact their spirits.

Speaker 2:
[188:13] It's like a golem or something.

Speaker 1:
[188:15] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[188:15] It's a myth.

Speaker 1:
[188:15] Right.

Speaker 2:
[188:17] Whoa.

Speaker 1:
[188:19] Before I forget, there's a little bit of a crossover here, with the Epstein stuff that you mentioned earlier. Because it's apparent that some of the elite, some of our ruling elite are obsessed with Baal. Baal was a Canaanite deity. So you have this Canaanitish cult that's still being perpetuated among the elite. Part of that Canaanitish cult, at least in ancient Canaan, was the cult of Giants. So if you go to the island of Sardinia today, for example, you will find many, many megalithic structures that are still standing. Those are called Nurage Towers. They're circular stone towers. They're pretty impressive, although they're crude. This is Cyclopean architecture, which is large stones fit together without the use of any binding agent like mortar. And at the top of these towers, some of them were over 100 feet tall. There were over 30,000 of these things on the island of Sardinia, over 30,000. At the top of some of these towers were megalithic basalt stones that were cut. So you do have some more of the monumental architecture incorporated into the top of the towers, whereas the rest of the towers are pretty crude. But big stones nevertheless in the Cyclopean style, but associated with these towers are what are called the tombs of the giants. To this day, they're called the tombs of the giants.

Speaker 2:
[189:51] Really?

Speaker 1:
[189:51] On the island of Sardinia. I visited, I've been to Sardinia a few times, and I visited many of both the towers and the tombs. The tombs are configured in the shape of a womb. Now, I used to think that it was bull's head because of Molech and Baal and it was clearly a Canaanitish. The ancient culture that they attribute these towers and these tombs to, is called the Nuragic people, the Nuragic culture. But the Nuragic culture, it's clear, were Canaanitish for sure. That culture was Canaanitish. Their iconography, we know that at the very least, we know that the Phoenicians inhabited that island for some time. The Phoenicians were descended from the Canaanites and had continued on many of their rights, including according to the Romans, they sacrificed their children to Molech. That's part of the reason, ostensibly, why the Romans detested them.

Speaker 2:
[190:57] I didn't know that.

Speaker 1:
[191:00] The sacrifice of children was practiced widely by the Canaanites and also by the Phoenicians. The Canaanites, the Greeks called the Canaanites, Phoenicians. You had that specifically, the inhabitants of Tyre, Sidon, and Byblos were Phoenician, and they were Canaanites. But then there were other Canaanite tribes. In the Old Testament, among these Canaanites were literal tribes of giants, clans of giants, mostly inhabiting the High Country. And these are the giants that Joshua encountered during the Conquest. So I think my, and I'm going to get back to the occult thing here. I think that Joshua drove out a lot of the giants that weren't killed in the Conquest. They went over the Mediterranean, across the Mediterranean, and many of them reestablished themselves on the island of Sardinia. That's my guess. That's just a conjecture of mine.

Speaker 2:
[191:59] Are the tombs extremely large there?

Speaker 1:
[192:03] Yes. And I'll get to get back to the tombs in a second. So this migration, this forced migration, this eviction of giants out of the Promised Land, documented in the biblical text, is evidenced in the fact that there was a, I forget who recorded this, one of the Greek historians that there was in Tunisia. There was a column that had an inscription, and the inscription read, We are the Canaanites who fled before the face of Joshua, the son of Nun. Whoa. And so the Canaanites obviously were evicted from the land of Canaan, and I think they coalesced on the island of Sardinia. And so now you have massive megalithic towers, and you have massive megalithic tombs. Again, to this day, known as the Tombs of the Giants. And initially, as I said, I thought that the...

Speaker 2:
[192:58] Are the tombs for like a 10-foot-plus body or...?

Speaker 1:
[193:02] Okay, so I'll describe the tomb, and then we'll talk about a controversy regarding them and how large they are. So the tombs are shaped, generally speaking, like a bull's head, right? Like the Chicago Bulls logo. Generally speaking, shaped like a bull's head. So I had thought initially that because this is a Canaanitish culture, that these tombs are shaped in the bull's head, which is a very iconic figure among the Canaanites, sometimes representing Molech or Baal, right? And so I had assumed that this was the configuration. I was wrong. The tombs are actually shaped like wombs. They're shaped like a uterus, which is, if you look at it, like if you pull it up on Google Images, it's shaped like, it looks like a bull's head, kind of. So it's got like the two arms and then this curved portion on the bottom. And that's how all the tombs are shaped in Sardinia. Now, there's two types of tombs. One of them has a trilithon entry, a trilithon doorway, which means it's like megalithic stones that are stacked basically like a doorway, right? And then the other configuration is a large megalithic stone that's like a stelae with a little doggy door in it, the bottom, just like a little door that you and I couldn't fit through. But a young person could, like a 12-year-old or something like 13-year-old, could squeeze into the hole. So as I keep saying, I'm not inventing the word tomb of the giants. That's what they're called. Since time immemorial, they were called the tombs of the giants. The locals believe that the giants were buried in them, in the vicinity of them, or more importantly, beneath them. The contention is by armchair archaeologists that the bodies of giants can't fit in the tombs. Well, first of all, that wasn't the purpose of the tomb. The purpose wasn't to put the body inside. I'll explain that in a minute. But even if it were, I went to Sardinia with a tape measure. Yes, you can fit the bodies of giants in those tombs. Even if that was the purpose, you could fit a 10-foot tall dude in there. I'm estimating a guy that's three times my width, like laying on the ground, just imagining something, three times my width, two, three times my height. Yes, you can.

Speaker 2:
[195:27] The locals think that the giants were buried there. There is mythology local.

Speaker 1:
[195:31] They're associated with the tombs. I learned when I was in Sardinia that the tombs actually are configured, the way that they're configured, in the shape of a womb, with a door, one with a trilith on door, that you and I could get into, but we'd have to stoop down, right? But the other one, the little door, we couldn't squeeze into it. I learned that those tombs, it's known to the archaeological community, were configured in such a way so that they could accommodate what's called the right of incubation or a right of incubation. What is the right of incubation? It was a right of passage ceremony. So when young people were adults and back then, the ancient world, I mean, you were an adult when you were like 12 years old, right? 12, 13, 14 years old, you're being initiated into adulthood, getting married at 14, 15, 16 in the ancient world, right? So the right of incubation is a right of passage in which the young person would squeeze into either that little doggy door in the stelae, the one configuration, or they would be sealed in with a door, with a stone into the other configuration, both of them shaped in the, both of them configured in the shape of a womb. So what you have is a gallery inside the tomb. And both of them, it's quite a large gallery. And in the tomb with the trilithon doorway, you could stand up and walk around. They're very large inside. And there's a little bench built into it. And you could see where maybe you could put some candles or whatever. And the idea was that the young person, as part of this rite of passage, would incubate in the tomb in order to commune and to absorb the power, the prowess of the mighty one buried beneath the tomb. So this is like, you can think of this as a, maybe like a resurrection tomb. Somehow, were you communicating with the beings, the dead giants, their spirits come? Remember, the mythology of the ancient world, not just the Jews, was that the spirits of dead giants persisted in the world as demons. So you could commune with their, if you have their bodies, maybe you can commune with their, reach out to their spirits, commune with them and be inhabited by them, or just gain information so that, imagine, the gathering demoniac that we talked about earlier, was so demonically energized, that they would chain him up in the tombs because he would scream, he was wild, he was feral, and he was so demonically energized that he would break the chains. So you're talking about superhuman strength. That's pretty useful if you're like a warrior society, right? You want to field some berserkers, some demon-possessed berserkers. That's a very useful technology, so to speak, to field on an ancient battlefield, these demonized berserkers. That's one possibility that they were trying to become infused, inhabited by demonic spirits, but also maybe just to commune with the mighty ones who had died and gone before them. But they were incubating, and they were sealed in there for a period of time.

Speaker 2:
[198:53] It's wild.

Speaker 1:
[198:54] It gets wilder.

Speaker 2:
[198:56] Keep going. How does it get wilder?

Speaker 1:
[198:58] Do you remember the WikiLeaks emails?

Speaker 2:
[199:02] Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1:
[199:02] Remember there was allegedly an email that was a correspondence with Hillary Clinton, where she was inquiring about the resurrection tomb and body of Gilgamesh?

Speaker 2:
[199:11] That's right. And Gilgamesh was a giant.

Speaker 1:
[199:14] Yes. So this connects back to the occult stuff. So what do I think is behind the cover up of giants? I think the occult is behind the cover up of giants. The Epstein type, Baal worshiping cult, who are literally attempting to either demonize themselves or others, or make contact with these spirits of dead giants, harness them, gather information from them. If the anti-deluvian world was technologically advanced, there's a lot of information, practical, functional information that you could gain by interacting with these ancient beings.

Speaker 2:
[199:50] Yes. Have we ever found giant bones?

Speaker 1:
[199:54] Okay. That's a whole conversation in and of itself. On the island of Sardinia, again, I was there three times and I interviewed a lot of people. Yeah. I put all this in a film. It was one of those true legends documentaries that I mentioned earlier that I produced with Steve Quayle. I interviewed dozens of people in Sardinia who had dug up the bones of giants themselves with their hands. Wow. The common contention here is that these were the bones of giant sloths and mastodons and other megafauna. But the problem is that the reason why the Sardinians, at that time, we're talking about the 30s, the 40s, 50s, 60s, back in that era. The reason why, and these are all elderly people I talked to, the reason why they were actively looking for, or if they were plowing in their field, they'd have a horse drawn plow at the time. Plowing in the field, they kick up some skeletal remains, of a large, let's say, forearm and hand, fingers. The reason why they would be excited about this is because oftentimes, more often than not, they would find jewelry associated with the remains. Rings on the fingers, necklaces, different pieces of jewelry that were just jumbled in with the bones, are sometimes still on them. I heard this from a lot of people in Sardinia, the elderly people who still remember it. I interviewed a couple of gentlemen who excavated at the site called Anastasia, at the Church of Anastasia, it's a little Catholic church. The church was planted on top of a Neurologic archaeological site. They decided to do an excavation of the site. These individuals excavated, I'm probably going to get the dates wrong here. I want to say one of them excavated from like 78 to 79, and then the other one excavated from like 80 to 81, in that range. They both excavated at the same site, and I interviewed them separately, and they both told me the same story. They were hired by the municipality to go to the grounds of the Church of Anastasia, and start to remove systematically, take apart the ruins, and remove the artifacts. And both of them, the procedure was, all of the artifacts that came out of the site went into the church. They put tables, they set up tables in the church. I went to the Church of St. Anastasia, and it's just this little chapel, and they put tables, they set tables up inside the church. And then they would take the artifacts, all kinds of artifacts, gold and silver and all kinds of artifacts, and goblets and plates and jewelry, and the bones of giants would come out of the site, and they would put them in the church. They found entire skeletons of giants.

Speaker 2:
[202:54] What?

Speaker 1:
[202:55] Entire skeletons, both of them independently. And I could give you just a ton of examples here, but I remember one, there's a couple of examples that jump out. In one day of working, one of these gentlemen found three, they found three skeletons of a giant. You know, they reassembled it. They extracted the pieces and parts, and then they reassembled it in the, they were told to lay out the bones next to the church. As opposed to in, usually everything went inside the church. But in this particular occasion, he laid out three skeletal remains of giants. And he said, so the procedure was, I know I'm sort of tying this in a confusing knot here, but the procedure was the artifacts go in the church. And then overnight, somebody came to take them all away. And then when they would come back in the morning, everything's gone. And they would just, that was how they proceeded. But on this occasion, this guy was told to lay these bodies out next to the church in the yard. So he laid them out, three bodies. They were at least nine feet tall each. Next day, they were gone. In another occasion.

Speaker 2:
[204:01] Who takes these?

Speaker 1:
[204:03] Well, that individual told me that he knows that some of those artifacts were recovered, were retrieved by certain individuals who were associated with the University of Codgety, the capital city. In Sardinia, it's called Codgety. The University of Codgety, he knows that there was certain professors or somebody associated. He told me the name who communicated with him about what to do with some of these artifacts, including the bodies of giants.

Speaker 2:
[204:34] You contact that professor?

Speaker 1:
[204:35] I couldn't find him. So then the other individual, he told me there's dozens of stories from both of these guys. He told me that he was excavating one day and he had his wife with him, and they found a skull that was so big. He said the vertebrae was still attached to part of it because these were very well preserved. When I say skeletal remains, I'm not talking about bleach bones. I'm talking about bodies that are really well preserved, not exactly like mummies, but some of them have sinews, some of them still have, they're not just skeletons. He said he unearthed this gigantic skull, it was so large that he and his wife had to carry it together. They brought it into the church. Then he said there was another day he was, I'm just skipping over a bunch of other ones by the way, but he said he was excavating at the site and they were excavating one of those towers, one of those New Ragge Towers. They unsealed the chamber. It was almost like hermetically sealed because what it looks like had happened to these towers is they were suddenly covered in earth. Almost like a tidal wave had swept across the island and deposited all of this soil over the towers and buried them. Wow. In fact, that's true because I saw- keep in mind, some of these towers are very tall. Some of them are up to 100 feet, but they've since crumbled, but they're still pretty tall. If you look at the towers before they were discovered, they just look like hills. They just look like hills of dirt. Then they dig into them and that's one of these towers. They're all over the place still out there, all over the place.

Speaker 2:
[206:28] Does anybody have photos or video of the bones?

Speaker 1:
[206:33] No. Keep in mind this is back in the late 70s, early 80s. They were told not to take any pictures and never to talk about it. Again, two individuals-

Speaker 2:
[206:42] How many of these witnesses came out in your documentary?

Speaker 1:
[206:45] Well, this particular case, two, but of other cases, dozens.

Speaker 2:
[206:49] Okay, wow.

Speaker 1:
[206:50] Yeah. So they unsealed this tower that was buried. Remember, let's say this thing is buried suddenly, right? Let's say you've got somebody living inside of this thing. Tidal wave hits, carries a mountain of soot, dirt deposits it suddenly over one of these towers, hermetically sealed. Yeah. Whatever's in this thing is sealed inside, right? And going to be well preserved. So they opened up one of these chambers and he said he walked, they walked into the chamber with flashlights and there was a giant seated at a table. He was dead and he was just slumped over. They said that everything was gigantic, he said. The table was gigantic, there was a gigantic plate and goblet on the table, and the plate still had like oysters on it. What? Yeah, and the giant had been eating oysters and he was a giant goblet on the table. Probably 9, 10, 11 feet tall, maybe 12 feet tall. Somewhere in that range is most of these giants are in that range, between 9 and 12 feet tall.

Speaker 2:
[207:58] Wouldn't the flesh have decayed by that?

Speaker 1:
[208:00] I think it did start to decay immediately as soon as it started to crumble.

Speaker 2:
[208:04] So it was like somehow sealed from oxygen, it was hermetically sealed.

Speaker 1:
[208:07] The thing was just buried suddenly probably. So at least this is what they said, this is what they're telling me. So and I didn't pay these guys or anything like that.

Speaker 2:
[208:19] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[208:20] Nothing like that. So they took the body of this giant, they carried it out together and laid it in the church. Wow. It was very, very well-preserved. Then they took the goblet and the plate and they found earrings, they found all kinds of things, jewelry, all kinds of stuff at this one site. In Santa Anastasia, in Sardinia. Apart from that, I interviewed lots of other people who found the remains of giants all over the place in the countryside. Well, one guy said that.

Speaker 2:
[208:52] Do you think we'll get concrete evidence of this in our life?

Speaker 1:
[208:55] I don't know. I don't know. This one guy said.

Speaker 2:
[208:57] Because if this is this prevalent, I would expect that and I would hope that we do.

Speaker 1:
[209:02] Well, like I said, I think the occult's at the center of this thing, so I'm not sure. Right.

Speaker 2:
[209:07] But it's the same thing with the UFO stuff where it always slips through your fingers.

Speaker 1:
[209:11] Are these bail-worshipping pedophiles ever going to go to jail?

Speaker 2:
[209:15] Right. Yeah. So, yeah, no one apparently visited the island. Everyone was on the e-mails, but no one actually.

Speaker 1:
[209:23] So, if I see a bunch of pedos go to jail, then I'll have more hope that we're going to learn the truth about giants.

Speaker 2:
[209:28] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[209:29] So, just to give you one more illustration here, I talked to a guy who was 101 years old when I interviewed him. He was still very spry, very spunky, funny guy.

Speaker 2:
[209:39] It's a blue zone there, right? There's like centenarians.

Speaker 1:
[209:41] Yes. This is some of the longest lived people in the world, in the island of Sardinia. So, he told us-

Speaker 2:
[209:47] Maybe it's the giant DNA.

Speaker 1:
[209:49] Maybe it is. Well, they say some of them that they were descended from giants. Wow. On the island of Sardinia, you do have an unusual portion of the population with red hair. So, which seems to be a trademark of these Nephilemic tribes.

Speaker 2:
[210:08] And didn't Canaan literally had red hair, I believe, right? Who? Or maybe it was Esau had red hair.

Speaker 1:
[210:16] Esau was like a hairy ape, red, hairy ape. Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[210:20] And that's not related to this?

Speaker 1:
[210:22] It is kind of.

Speaker 2:
[210:23] Kind of.

Speaker 1:
[210:24] But just to give you another illustration here. I talked to this guy 101 years old, can't remember his name. I just came into my head and then departed. But it was a lot of fun talking to him. And of course, I had a translator with me, Anna Tuveri. So, Anna, if you're watching, shout out to Anna Tuveri.

Speaker 2:
[210:38] Shout out, Anna.

Speaker 1:
[210:38] She was born in Rome, a native Italian speaker. Actually, I believe some of her family was from Sardinia. Oh, wow. And so she was with me as my translator. And we interviewed this gentleman. And he told us some wild stories. One of the stories he told me was one time he was working in a field when he was a young man. So this was, I mean, he's 101 years old. I don't know what year that would have been. He told us, I can't remember. It was like 1920s, 1930s, something like that. And he's working in this field because the owner of the field wanted to plant a vineyard. So they were tilling, getting ready to plant a vineyard. And this field was in the vicinity of one of those towers, one of those Nuragi Towers. And they're plowing, and as there's a bunch of guys out there, and they're tearing up the soil, and suddenly they start unearthing the remains of gigantic people. And he said, they were all starting to shout to each other and a big commotion because they were all sort of simultaneously starting to unearth like this graveyard. And he said, all of the bodies were positioned like this, two by two in a cross configuration. So like that, all the bodies, and there were dozens of them. And he said, they were gigantic. So when people say that in Sardinia, they mean 9, 10, 11, 12 feet. And they were clearly humans that had been buried there intentionally. This is a graveyard. And as they're digging this up, the owner of the field says, stop, stop, stop. I got to call this in. I call the coroner or whatever. And so he made a phone call to whoever, the university, I don't know who he called. And then he came back and he said, everybody has to vacate this area. We all have to leave. He said, I've been told they're going to come get their remains. They want us out of here. So we have to go. Well, this gentleman I was interviewing, he's very funny. He said, he said, well, I really needed the money. And I wanted to make this guy pay me a day's wage, not a half a day's wage. So I stayed. He said, my plan was to just stay and work and then say, hey, I just stayed. I worked the whole day. So, so you get a day's wage. And but what happened was as he's in the midst of working by himself now, right? He said, these vans pulled up, a bunch of vans pulled up and people started, these people started getting out of the vans with equipment. And he hid, he went and hid himself like in the bushes or something. And he watched them come out of the vans, take pictures of all of the remains that run across configuration, gather up all the remains, load them into the vans, then he said, they went into the tower. And they were examining the tower, taking pictures of the tower. And he said, there was like this, in that tower, there was like some kind of like a passageway that went down and maybe was obstructed. They sealed it up. I think he said they put some stuff and cemented over it. And then they left.

Speaker 2:
[213:38] That's so strange.

Speaker 1:
[213:39] These are the kind of stories I heard one after another.

Speaker 2:
[213:42] And don't you also have a story of being at a function, you see this kind of high up, Air Force officer, and you mentioned the Kandahar 2003 or 2005 kind of giant and you know, confrontation. And then it was his wife says like, he's not supposed to talk about this.

Speaker 1:
[214:00] I don't want to, I gotta be really careful with that story because that I don't want to get that guy in trouble. But yeah, let's just put it this way. Let's only be very vague. I've had interactions with people where we could talk about like UFOs, underground bases and they'll whisper and tell you a little bit of what they know. But when you bring up giants, one of them literally went like this to me, pointed to his phone.

Speaker 2:
[214:25] What?

Speaker 1:
[214:27] That's crazy. Then I had a friend of mine who I told him some of these stories. He said that he was with a friend of his who happened to be, and I got to be careful here too. Let me be very vague. He was with, I don't want to get anybody in trouble.

Speaker 2:
[214:48] Sure.

Speaker 1:
[214:48] I talk a lot and I got to make sure I'm not saying things.

Speaker 2:
[214:52] You don't want to burn any sources.

Speaker 1:
[214:56] So, he was with this individual who's associated with the government, somebody from the government, and they're just having a casual conversation. He said, they're really good friends, having this casual conversation, and he had just been with me, this guy, my friend who's talking to his government buddy. He had just been with me, and we're talking like we're talking right now. We were talking like we're talking right now. Because he was like, whoa, that's crazy. I can't believe that. I was like, well, listen, man, bring it up, see what happens. Bring this topic up to people who you think might know something, watch what happens. So he did. He brought it up with this individual. And he said, he asked him, he said, hey, do you know anything about like this Tandahar giant thing? And he said, this person who's his friend just totally switched.

Speaker 2:
[215:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[215:44] And said, I'm trying to think what he told him. He said something like, what the hell are you getting yourself into? What are you getting yourself into? You need to be careful. You need to be careful. Like just this casual fun conversation just turned into like this very serious warning. I don't know what you're getting yourself into, but you need to be careful. Then he called me. And he told me, dude, he said, man, I didn't know what to think after you talked to me, but man, I brought this up. And just like you said, he changed on a dine and warned me. So I have a lot of little anecdotal things like that. And people accuse me all the time of the trust me bro stuff. I get it. Look, these are stories, okay?

Speaker 2:
[216:33] Well, I'll hit you with the story of mine, which is before we even met, and maybe I was vaguely aware of your work, but this was years ago. I had a friend who's kind of prominent or semi-prominent on Twitter and tech circles and stuff. He's not into any of this ancient civilization UFO stuff, really. I mean, maybe is somewhat partial to it now, but has been dragged into it by the fact that the narrative has changed so much in the last five, six years. And we're at a conference or something, and he's telling me about his buddy who is Special Forces, and he's like, you come to New York, get dinner with me and this guy. He's Special Forces, and he claims to have, or his troop or whatever is, you know, the corps he was with claims to have fought this giant in the caves of Afghanistan. And so this was like totally independent of anything having to do with you. And so I have to do that. Cause honestly at the time I was like, that's insane. What is this crap? I mean, I was at the time, you know, UFO stuff was still like kind of integrating in my mind. And I was like, this is really crazy. Like what the hell? But so another independent source. Yeah. And I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[217:56] I'm pretty sure, I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that I saw something that looked like an official press release from the Pentagon saying, the Kandahar giant story is not true.

Speaker 2:
[218:08] Oh, that's funny. They commented.

Speaker 1:
[218:10] Yeah. It seems like they've gone, they've explicitly wanted the public to know that this story isn't true. So again, why all the secrecy? Like what's the big deal? So giants existed. We know that giants existed. In America, the Native Americans had the legends of the red-haired giants. And as I said earlier, their bones were being discovered on record in the Smithsonian Institution's own annual reports. You have evidence of very unusual skeletal remains, many of which were very large, which were the remains of giants. And where did those go?

Speaker 2:
[218:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[218:53] Where did those go? You have Abraham Lincoln, who was waxing poetically about Niagara Falls in a speech in which he says, The eyes of that ancient species of giants whose bones fill the mounds of America have gazed upon Niagara as ours do now.

Speaker 2:
[219:12] That's wild.

Speaker 1:
[219:13] Abraham Lincoln. So is he referencing something that nobody would understand what he's saying? Of course not. He's referencing something that everybody knew to be true. The bones of that ancient species of giants, or the eyes of that ancient species of giants whose bones fill the mounds of America. So it is bizarre when you can talk to guys about UFOs all day long, government types, but they won't say a thing about giants.

Speaker 2:
[219:44] Yeah. Not only will they not say a thing, they freak out. They get visibly concerned. It's so strange.

Speaker 1:
[219:51] Again, I would say that there's something, if I can use the term Epsteinish, Epsteinian about this whole thing with the giants and the ball and the occult.

Speaker 2:
[220:05] Well, that's one of the deeper thread on the Epstein stuff. It's like, why is he showing up in e-mails saying, I killed ponds from ponds and fleshmen, like cold fusion, which is clean limitless energy. He's saying, you know Robert Maxwell, Ghislaine's super spy father, who was...

Speaker 1:
[220:26] He was buried on the Mount of Olives, I believe.

Speaker 2:
[220:28] Interesting. Well, there you go. Yeah, MI6, Mossad, all these... Basically like it helped invent peer review, scientific peer review, was also in charge of Nazi tech transfer, which is really, I think, an important fact. And then you have Epstein telling Bannon in an interview that he moved Zora Ranch to where it was, or he moved to Zora Ranch, because it was near retiring Los Alamos physicists. And then he's showing up and he says he's killing cold fusion and he's obsessed with anti-gravity. So you end up like with the bones of the giants or with UFOs or with all of these things, because you ended with really like this weird, like there's almost like a cult of science, like, because there's so much circumstantial evidence, there's so much, and then there's very little concrete evidence in the way of like really good, high-res photography. And then there's always some muddling of the good, you know, when there is good evidence, we talked about photographs that have negatives, we talked about videos, we talked about implants, we've talked about material. Like there are all these things, but there's always the muddying of the water. So you get into this really weird ontological territory where there is literally a faction on earth that wants to hide breakthrough technology and wants to hide breakthroughs as far as our own ancient discovery, you know, like understanding our past, and wants to keep us in this state of amnesia.

Speaker 1:
[221:58] Are these the adepts of the Mystery Schools?

Speaker 2:
[222:02] Maybe, maybe.

Speaker 1:
[222:03] I mean, I don't know, I don't know the answer.

Speaker 2:
[222:04] I don't know, but there's a lot of weird symbology on Epstein's...

Speaker 1:
[222:07] Not coincidental that Ball comes up, Canaanite, I mean, the Canaanite god, the, as I said, the cover-up of Giants, crossover with the UFO stuff, and you throw into the mix just the rank occultists like Alistair Crowley and Jack Parsons.

Speaker 2:
[222:26] Right, and Crowley's another guy who had an alien being sort of seem to show up.

Speaker 1:
[222:30] Yeah, the lamb thing.

Speaker 2:
[222:31] Lamb thing, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[222:32] That he conjured. Yeah, so there's a lot of crossover here.

Speaker 2:
[222:36] Yeah. Is any of that, because mostly I associate the occult with left hand path, pursuit of power via paranormal channels in a way that is a Faustian bargain and kind of blows up in your face if you do it. But maybe it confers power for a temporary period of time. And then I also think of the founding fathers of America all being Freemasons. And I'm interested in the Templar. I think they're interesting. I often find myself caught between the people who are like, it's all demonic. And then these other people who are obsessed with it for very dark, bad reasons.

Speaker 1:
[223:17] I'm sure that within some of these, for example, Freemasons is a great example. Most Freemasons, certainly ones that I know, are just good old boys. They don't know nothing about anything really.

Speaker 2:
[223:30] That's it. Now, if you're a Freemason, you don't know shit.

Speaker 1:
[223:33] So maybe back then, I'm sure it was much more intense. I think Francis Bacon, who was the author of The Colonization Scheme. I didn't know that.

Speaker 2:
[223:43] He knew some stuff. He read like The New Atlantis.

Speaker 1:
[223:46] I think he was a Rosicrucian.

Speaker 2:
[223:48] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[223:48] And I think he was a acolyte of John Dee.

Speaker 2:
[223:52] Right.

Speaker 1:
[223:53] The famous magician Elizabeth's Court, who was definitely a Rosicrucian. So I think that you definitely have occult activity. You have certain acolytes in the occult who are very serious and who know things, and who have very devious, dark aims. Then you have other people who are involved for other reasons, fraternities. It was popular to be a member of some kind of fraternity back then because you didn't have cell phones and internet. So if you're going to network with people, you did it in a fraternity a lot of times, or you did it in like a church.

Speaker 2:
[224:28] And some people think that Jesus himself was part of it. So there's a Martin Luther King Jr. actually wrote an essay called The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis. And then you have people like Brian Marescu, who writes The Immortality Key, and Elaine Pagels is Princeton Religious Studies Professor. And a lot of these people sort of hint at the idea that the Last Supper was itself a mystery ritual that had some continuity between the Eleusinian mystery rituals and whatever he underwent. I have no idea if that's true.

Speaker 1:
[225:00] I personally would reject any notion that Jesus was a mystery school adept, or went to India to learn from the gurus or whatever. There's lots of things people say.

Speaker 2:
[225:11] But do you think he had secret teachings?

Speaker 1:
[225:15] I would say that Jesus is exactly who he claimed to be. He was the Messiah, the Son of God. That's what I would say. And that he differed from all of these other masters and gurus in that he was endowed by the Holy Spirit to do what he did and he rose from the grave, which distinguishes Jesus of Nazareth from everyone else. So I would say as a Christian, I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God.

Speaker 2:
[225:44] But all this stuff around him, you needing to have ears to hear and having disciples and stuff. Initiates of something.

Speaker 1:
[225:53] It is very interesting that Jesus, so here you have, according to the authors of the New Testament, Jesus is the Son of God and he is the Creator. It's Colossians 1, 15-17, which reads, He, the Son of God, Jesus, he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through him and for him, and in him all things consist. In fact, I missed the other part, and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. So that is a very unique, I mean, the person of Christ to the apostles was not just a great teacher. He was, he is the singularity. All things were created through him and for him, and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And this was the, this is what the apostles believed about Christ. And Jesus, so here you have the author of creation, who is walking among men. And he could have taught us about anything. He could have instructed us in electromagnetism, electricity. I mean, you know, the Jews were under the dominion of the Romans. Jesus could have conferred information to them, upgraded their military technology, right? Given them information, electricity and so forth, that would have allowed them to easily dominate, not just the Romans, but the entire world, right? He could have instantly upgraded their civilization. He didn't do that. In contrast to those gods who descended in the days of Jared, Jesus spoke in parables, and he taught the people like they were little kids. And his message was about the kingdom of heaven. And everything that he did was a demonstration that he was precisely who he said he was, namely the son of God. And so I look at that and it's remarkable to me because the message of Christ was the gospel of Christ is about, as I referred to earlier, is about redeeming the sons and daughters of Adam and reconciling them back to the father. That's why the cross of Christ brings reconciliation, so that we can go back into the family. That's what he was about. He could have taught all manner of secret knowledge, and instead, he taught us about the kingdom of heaven and about his father and the way to go back to be reconciled to the father, which was through him. I separate Christ from all of these other, I don't believe that Jesus was a mystery school adept. I think that, in fact, his message was in direct contradiction to the knowledge of the watchers, to the knowledge of the gods that was delivered to mankind.

Speaker 2:
[229:03] The people that like to lump him in with the mystery schools also say he hung out with the Essenes or whatever at the time.

Speaker 1:
[229:09] All of this is, of course, conjecture. Yeah, of course. We know that Jesus, that they fled to Egypt, and he was in Egypt for a while, and they came back, and that Jesus was growing up with his parents, arguing with the teachers of the law and the synagogue, and so forth. So, yeah, I would ascribe to, rather, I would not, I don't personally subscribe to any of those alternative ideas about Christ. I believe Jesus is precisely who he said he was.

Speaker 2:
[229:41] And do you think, you know, with respect to, you know, this idea of the Watchers and the Nephi-Lim, he's of a totally different variety. He is just the son of God.

Speaker 1:
[229:52] Yeah, so, yes. You know, so much of what was happening in the life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth was really kind of undoing what had been done by the Watchers and reclaiming and reestablishing the kingdom of God. And so there's a great book called Reversing Hermon by the late scholar, Michael Heiser. He also wrote another great book called The Unseen Realm, which is a really, really, I think, critical scholarly dissertation on the life and ministry of Jesus as it relates to the things we were talking about earlier on, the Watchers and everything that they had done.

Speaker 2:
[230:38] Heiser also really corroborates the Nuffy Leam idea as like a real historical thing.

Speaker 1:
[230:43] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[230:43] And he's a guy who sort of throws, pours cold water on the Zacharias Sitchin kind of.

Speaker 1:
[230:49] Yeah, he had a website called Sitchin is Wrong. I think it was sitchiniswrong.com.

Speaker 2:
[230:53] The whole, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[230:54] In which he demonstrates how a lot of Sitchin's interpretations of the cylinder seals were not very good.

Speaker 2:
[231:03] So another point in favor of giants is a biblical scholar who's pretty serious in debunking other people who were considered more quacky or whatever seems to corroborate the giants.

Speaker 1:
[231:14] Yeah. I mean, Heiser would have affirmed and did that the Enochian tale that we talked about earlier, that the idea of the gods, the watchers descending to the earth and copulating with human when pro-generating that hybrid race of giants, that that form, the substrate of human, rather Hebrew cosmology, that that was part and parcel to the historical narrative of the Hebrews when they look back into the antediluvian world. There's a lot of other scholars too, who acknowledge that, most scholars acknowledge that for sure, today. So it's, but what I was saying earlier was, you know, to kind of circle back to the beginning, we were talking about sort of this larger biblical context into which you can accommodate the UFO phenomenon. Reminding us of Anna Paulina's words, you know, look at The Book of Enoch if you want to understand the phenomenon. She references that in the context of inter-dimensional beings. I don't know whether or not these were inter-dimensional. I don't even know what inter-dimensional really means.

Speaker 2:
[232:20] That's hilarious when people say, oh, it's inter-dimensional, or they say, oh, it's spiritual. It's like, and then you ask them one follow up question. It means nothing.

Speaker 1:
[232:27] It means nothing. It means movie reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[232:31] Or it means it's their political polemic on what it is. So often if somebody says it's spiritual, they're kind of saying it's demonic.

Speaker 1:
[232:40] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[232:41] And you hear this with certain Christian podcasters, some of whom I'm a huge fan of. But they'll say, they'll use this line. They'll say, I think it's spiritual. I think it's kind of dark. And then they won't like, they won't touch it. And it's like, okay, fine. But like, what is an angel? What is a demon? Like we should try to investigate this.

Speaker 1:
[232:56] Exactly. So if you're going to invoke, if you're going to invoke inter-dimensionality, for example, as you I'm sure well know, there isn't like one theory in physics that describes extra dimensions. There's a suite of theories and they're not the same. You know, you have like multiverse, which is a, you know, different universes with different physical properties, right? So in the multiverse, you have just this endless.

Speaker 2:
[233:22] Infinite. Wave function never collapses.

Speaker 1:
[233:24] Yeah, like the bubbles in a glass of beer. Constantly new universes being created. And each universe in multiverse has different physical properties. And the reason why multiverse came into existence is because physicists, I think, finally realized that you can't get around a creator, like an intelligent creator of the universe. And so to circumvent that idea, they created the multiverse theory, which is just like random, spontaneous universes are going, are being created all the time, because our universe is finally tuned, clearly. Our universe is finally tuned. I mean, it is precisely tuned. And if any one of the constituents of our universe was not exactly the way it is, you couldn't have life.

Speaker 2:
[234:11] Yeah, the anthropic principle.

Speaker 1:
[234:13] The anthropic principle. So the universe is clearly finely tuned for life. And that points very clearly to a creator and a purpose for the universe. And so to circumvent that, you just make it so the universe just happens to have these qualities. Because there's a multitude of universes being created all the time. There's an infinite number of universes. And so it's just like rolling the dice. And we happen to live in the one.

Speaker 2:
[234:40] Goldilocks.

Speaker 1:
[234:41] The Goldilocks universe, where everything is so finely tuned. That was a circumvention of the reality that the universe had a beginning and it was finely tuned so that it could support life and be the way it is. And so multiverse is each one of these universes and multiverse has different physical properties, right? And so what you see like there's multiverse and then there's string theory, super string theory, which super string theory posits that there's 11 dimensions, right? And there's different aspects of string theory that posits more, but there's at least 11 dimensions. But those are like inaccessible dimensions. Those are like subatomic dimensions. And those dimensions don't give you access to another universe like multiverse. They just open, it opens up another facet of this universe, right? And then you have the hyperspatial theory of the universe, which is actually quite similar to that. You have the alternative worlds theory. These are all different scientific theories. So what people do is they just say interdimensional, and they invoke them all like a hodgepodge. And what they're doing is they're invoking a Marvel movie. And this is why when people say, well, I think it's interdimensional, just like you, my follow-up question is, what does that mean? Where are they coming from? Because you can have, let's say, a portal open up in the sky and saucers fly out of it. Like my friend saw this actually happen. And then a portal closes. And when a portal was open, he could see a different atmosphere on the other side inside of the portal. Well, okay, so let's assume that story is true. And if we analyze this, we can say, okay, this is a portal. What's on the other side? Is it a different universe? Is it like some sort of different multiverse? Or is it a different part of planet Earth? Or is it a different planet? Right? And then, so it doesn't mean, what I'm trying to say, is just because you see a portal open up in the sky and flying saucers come out of it, does it mean that those saucers are interdimensional? Or are by nature interdimensional? It doesn't follow that those are interdimensional beings. In fact, it's just as likely, if not more likely, that what you're witnessing is what's called an Einstein-Rosen bridge, and it's connecting two parts of either somewhere on the Earth or in the known universe, or in our universe, rather. And so what you're getting is vehicles that are coming from some other part of the universe or some other part of the Earth, or the inner Earth or something like that. It doesn't necessarily lend itself to inter-dimensionality. And I think there's a lot of confusion there. I really do. And I'm not against inter-dimensionality. I just don't think it, and nobody really can define it properly.

Speaker 2:
[237:28] Yeah, I agree. No, it's, when they say inter-dimensional, they just mean it's not extra-terrestrial.

Speaker 1:
[237:35] Exactly.

Speaker 2:
[237:35] That it's not based on any sort of physics or anything.

Speaker 1:
[237:38] So let me ask you, I've been wanting to ask you, what, so based on all of your research, everybody you've interviewed, everything you know about this phenomenon.

Speaker 2:
[237:47] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[237:48] What do you think is the most likely, and now you're probably not going to commit to anything, but what do you think is the most likely explanation based on all the crash retrieval material, based on the clear nuts and bolts physicality of at least part of this phenomenon?

Speaker 2:
[238:02] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[238:03] Based on all of the testimonies that you've heard personally?

Speaker 2:
[238:06] I struggle. I can give you very viable local theories around anti-gravity and propulsion and then maybe even an interesting sort of physics theory as to like who the beings are, where they're from. I think there are multiple phenomena at play. So here would be my sort of more multifaceted, very speculative, weakly held answer there. I think there is some anti-deluvian remnants that have survived some sort of cataclysm and exist in underwater bases, specifically oceans.

Speaker 1:
[238:43] Which faction are you referencing here? When you think about that, who are you thinking about?

Speaker 2:
[238:48] It could be. I mean, you're now kind of updating my thought process on this maybe being fallen angels. I don't know.

Speaker 1:
[238:56] Are you seeing in your head like Nordics? Are you seeing gray aliens?

Speaker 2:
[238:59] Oh, I see as far as like the actual... You envision the survivors looking... What the beings look like? I don't know. I don't know what... I mean, it's tricky.

Speaker 1:
[239:08] Okay, so would you agree based on your research that the three factions that are commonly cited are real?

Speaker 2:
[239:19] Nordics, reptilians and grays.

Speaker 1:
[239:22] Including the insect and the mantis beings, the gray aliens.

Speaker 2:
[239:25] I think they're all real. And then where it gets so confusing is like, you have cases like Travis Walton where they're working together in conjunction.

Speaker 1:
[239:31] And other cases like that in the abduction material.

Speaker 2:
[239:33] There you go. So if I had to guess, I think usually in the abductions, like the tall grays are overseeing the small grays, and then the Nordics are sort of, they seem like even higher on the pecking order.

Speaker 1:
[239:51] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[239:52] And so the Nordics somehow seem like really, I don't know, somehow important as far as how the hierarchy works. And then mantids also feel above just the grays.

Speaker 1:
[240:05] I don't know how the Nordics and the mantids would relate to each other. But yeah, what would you?

Speaker 2:
[240:11] It's very intriguing. I think it's apparent that the mantids, the insectilens, as Jacobs denominates them, are clearly in charge of the grays. Like they are definitely in charge of the little grays. So they're managing the abduction program, I would say, at least on some level. Maybe there's somebody above them, right? But they're definitely managing the procedures and the grays. That seems to be apparent to me. Here's an interesting anecdote. So in Carla Turner's book, Taken, she features the abduction stories of a number of women. One of these ladies, after being abducted by grays, was abducted, endured a my lab abduction. She was taken forcibly from her house by military personnel. She was brought on to a base. And it was a very violent episode. And she remembers seeing, I hope I'm getting this right, she remembers seeing Nordics on the base. And she had an interaction with one, like she was laying in a bed. Sometimes they were like the scientists and the human scientists were extracting the implants and stuff and interrogating her and trying to figure out the grays were doing. It was always about trying to figure out the grays were doing. But then she had this, there's this weird story with one of these women where there was a Nordic, she was interacting with a Nordic on one of these bases. And she asked the Nordic if they were involved with the grays. And the reply of the Nordic was, by degrees. That was his reply.

Speaker 1:
[241:45] What does that mean? I don't know. This is interesting you're bringing this up, because this would also be my mental model on these covert space initiatives involving legacy reverse engineering programs, is that we're actually working in conjunction with the beings themselves.

Speaker 2:
[242:04] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[242:04] And that story you just told is one of a variety of the beings being on these bases. And if you think about, it's so strange. It's like you have MK Ultra, you have Exotic Propulsion, you have Free Ant. You have all these things where it seems like there's a confluence or convergence of just human science initiatives. And then the people at the forefront of all those initiatives start to communicate with aliens or get into weird alien. Like the inventors of the radio. So Tesla and Marconi claimed alien communication. Puharich, who was like the pioneer of MK Ultra.

Speaker 2:
[242:41] Oberth.

Speaker 1:
[242:42] Herman Oberth was saying that Rocketry was inspired, was, you know, von Braun was inspired. So, the book is inspired by the Beings and Oberth, gives a whole lecture on UFOs. So, you have people who are pioneers of the science, specifically science, which is the forefront of human knowledge. And so, again, going back to the kind of fallen angel, the rebel angel, which gives the knowledge to the man. So, these people who are at the front of all of those things seem to be interfacing. Thomas Townsend Brown, you could think of his anti-gravity stuff as an explanation away from the extra-terrestrial hypothesis. And then you get into the details of his life. And he's had literally close encounters of the third kind. He says he's communicating with space brothers. And so, that's as deep as you go. It's like the three body problem. It's this Chinese science fiction novel where the interface between the people who are stealing fire from the gods, these Promethean figures, these kind of Oppenheimer style figures, they seem to be interfacing with these beings most. And so, that seems significant. And then the nuclear thing seems significant because the nuclear thing is kind of the Archimedes lever, both for cataclysm, but also nuclear is if you take Feynman's like the room at the bottom thing, you know, the fact that we're splitting an atom seems somehow really important for our root access to reality itself. There's probably an ambient. I mean, there is the Schumann Resonance ambient electromagnetic radiation that helps life grow. And so like interfering with that, they would obviously, you know, interfere with us interfering with that. And so there are all these things that I feel like I have a good grasp of there. And then on the, I don't know how the beings and how they work together. And then which, you know, it's like when people commune with God and do these sort of cobalistic protocols of which CE5 is a variation. And I'm not the biggest Greer fan, but like, you know, I do think there's actually something to the phenomena.

Speaker 2:
[244:45] Somebody's making contact with something, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[244:46] Somebody's making contact with something. And I don't know if that's, that's probably not the same thing as what's showing up at our nuclear site. Is that the same thing as what's showing up, you know, under the oceans? Like all of these might be different things. I don't know.

Speaker 2:
[245:00] Have you had discussions with any of the psionic assets?

Speaker 1:
[245:03] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[245:05] So I've talked to some of those guys and I wondered with the psionic stuff, I wondered if there was a connection between these psionic assets and alien abduction. And the reason why I wonder that is because one thing that seems apparent is abductees are continually interlaced with the phenomenon. In other words, the greys know their thoughts even from a distance. And a good illustration of this is there's been women who have had a zygote implanted, it's grown into a fetus in their womb, and they realize that they're pregnant. They go to their gynecologist, they realize that they're pregnant. You know, what's crazy is that sometimes these women are virgins. And, but the pregnancy is confirmed and they contemplate an abortion, just contemplate an abortion, or they're talking on the phone to somebody about it. The greys come and get the fetus. They come and get it. And so the woman will go in for the abortion, and they'll do the ultrasound or whatever before, gone. This is the missing fetus syndrome, gone.

Speaker 1:
[246:22] Why?

Speaker 2:
[246:23] Because the greys took it, because they didn't want the fetus to be retrieved by the doctor or aborted, so they came and got it. They re-abducted her and they took it out. So, and there's other such stories that I think indicate that, perhaps through the implants, but also because the greys are potently telepathic, that there's a connection established between the gray and the abductee. So, if you are, this is just my theory, and by the way, I posited this theory to some of the psionics guys. So, if you are an abductee and you're signaling something, you're broadcasting maybe because you're implanted or just telepathically, whatever, brainwaves. You're broadcasting something. This is the way I like to think of this. I have a friend who was a rancher in Australia, and it was always really hot and he had all his cattle out there. So, he didn't ever really want to get up. He'd sit there in his tidy whities and on his computer, and he didn't want to get up and go see if there was a problem with his cows. He'd hear some commotion out there and he could see them on video. So, rather than getting up and going out there, he had a drone. He'd just put his drone up in the air and he'd fly his drone over there and check out what's going on. Then one of them get bit by a snake or something. So, he didn't have to get up and go out there. I almost wonder if that's what's going on with some of these psionic people. They're broadcasting something and then an automated response shows up. Orbs often will show up or sometimes crafts, sometimes they can get the craft to land. I almost wonder is because they're intrinsically interlaced with the phenomenon, if it's almost like just sending out a broadcast and the automated response comes just like the drone checking on the cattle.

Speaker 1:
[248:20] No, that would make sense. It really would because if you look at like Sky Watcher, which seemed like this.

Speaker 2:
[248:28] Jake Barber.

Speaker 1:
[248:29] Yeah, exactly. Almost externalization of what was happening on the inside and maybe it got botched somewhat and I don't know what ended up happening with it. But it was that you had this mechanical dog whistle and then you had this human dog whistle. And so I do think it was this thing where you could predictably. And then you hear other stories of the reverse engineering program involving like the only way to fly the craft is with your mind. So that seems significant as well.

Speaker 2:
[248:59] Yeah, there's definitely a mind machine interface involved. I think that's clear. I don't know what you think about Lazar's testimony. I personally believe it's true.

Speaker 1:
[249:07] I do too. I think I believe it's true. And then I also think they were messing with him and probably maybe trying to get certain things out. And then it went random.

Speaker 2:
[249:21] The initial briefing that he got, I'm not sure how much of that was true.

Speaker 1:
[249:25] Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of passage.

Speaker 2:
[249:27] The UFO Bible, I think he called it.

Speaker 1:
[249:28] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[249:28] Or whatever it was, the material that they had him read before he began to work on the project. That to me seems like maybe some manipulation to try and definitely throw some confusion into the mix. Because they don't ever want any of these guys putting too many of the pieces together. They just want them to be laser focused on one aspect of it.

Speaker 1:
[249:47] And you want to give them uniquely false details, so if there is a leak, you know.

Speaker 2:
[249:50] Precisely right. Yeah. So you always got, and Lazar actually, he thinks that that is a possibility. So I actually asked some of these psionic guys, and well, I proposed this idea to them, and they were very receptive to it. In fact, I was told, we know for a fact that some of our assets are abductees, so there's no question that that's a component of this.

Speaker 1:
[250:12] That's wild.

Speaker 2:
[250:13] They actually conceded that, yeah, that might be why these people can kind of summon UFOs, is because they're already interlaced with the phenomenon, and you're broadcasting, and there's just an automated response. I hate to put it in such crude terms, but we're the cattle, and the drones show up. Right. I think there's something to that.

Speaker 1:
[250:35] Well, that's the somewhat negative framing. What if the Enoch goes up, and walks with God, and you have Ezekiel, maybe it's a dream-like thing, but he sort of walks with God. There are people who believe in this sort of cobolistic story, and they'll say Jesus in The Book of Acts going up on the cloud is an example of this. And maybe they're taking liberties, and you can correct them if they're wrong. But what if the craft showing up is to commune with or take them somewhere and show them something beautiful, and then they come back down?

Speaker 2:
[251:16] Well, I mean, okay, let me give you an example here. I've got to go back to and I'm going to give you two examples. First one is a positive encounter. Okay. So I have a good friend of mine and he's gone publicly. He's gone public with this. So I'll just say his name is Gary Stairman, a wonderful man, older gentleman. And he's a great Bible teacher, just really, really knowledgeable. He's dedicated his life to it. He's in his eighties now, just a phenomenal Bible teacher, and a really good friend of mine. And he told me a story one time that threw me for a loop years ago. And this sort of got me, it sort of dislodged me from a sort of the traditional position where you're not really thinking about UFOs in a biblical context. This sort of, this is, as I like to say, rearrange the theological furniture in my brain a little bit. He had an encounter, and I'm going to get some of these details wrong, but Gary's told this story several times, including at one of our conferences, True Legend Conferences, years ago. But he was, I don't remember the year, and he comes from a family, the Stearman family, an aircraft family, and members of the Stearman family have worked with Lockheed Martin, and various, they've been in the programs, let's just say that. So that was the environment that Gary grew up in. So he was, I'm going to try and get the details right here. He was delivering an aircraft, a prop plane. I think he was flying from, I want to say, Lubbock, Texas to Dallas, I think. I don't remember. And he was delivering this plane. And so at the time, he just wanted to be a pilot. He wanted to just do what his family did. And he was on this routine business situation where he's delivering this aircraft. And he gets up in the air and he's flying. And he's a young guy in this context. And he's flying along. And then suddenly, the electrical components went out on his craft. And he realized he's in trouble, right? His electrical components went out of his craft. And he knows he's in trouble. So I forget what he did to try and manage the situation, but he knew he could have a real problem here. And I think what he was going to do is try and turn off the electrical components and turn them back on when he was coming closer, so he had to land. I don't remember. But he was in trouble. And I think he was flying a Cessna. And as he's flying along with this problem, serious problem, he looks off, I think he looks off his left wing, and he sees this shiny object flying out there in the distance. I think he said like a mile away. I hope I'm not butchering this story. I'm getting the fundamentals right. I hope I'm not butchering the details. He sees this shiny object flying a mile away. He thought it's just another aircraft out there. And then at some point, he hears a voice. He hears a voice that said, and he said it was comical. The voice said, if you look to your left, you'll see a UFO. And he said it was like a tour guide voice. It was comical. And he looks to the left again, and this craft now is right close to him. And it's a walnut-shaped craft. He got a good long look at it. It's right off of his left wing, and it's flying perpendicular to him. And he said it was just this beautiful shining craft, just the way he describes it. It had these colors emanating off of it, and it was just the silver, the typical silver craft. No rivets, no seams, the typical UFO. And he said that he couldn't see the beings inside of it, but he felt them. Like he had this, he felt like this intense fraternity, like this fraternal affection, as I think the way that he describes it, like this fraternal affection. Like these beings were familiar with him, and were there to look out for him. And that craft stayed with him, and guided, like basically, it accompanied him for the rest of the flight until he got to the airport. And then it just hovered up there, and he landed successfully. Now, the crazy thing is he gained, I think he gained like three hours. Whoa. Because he was in close proximity with this craft, and he ended up arriving really late, and he didn't have the fuel for the amount of time that he was up in the air. He didn't have the fuel, and the people who was delivering the aircraft who were freaking out on him. And in addition, he told them there was a problem with the aircraft, so they took the aircraft to the mechanic to take a look at it. And the next day, Gary came back and was talking to the mechanic. And I don't remember what the issue was, but he should have been dead. Like this, whatever the issue was, the mechanic said, I don't know how you landed this. You don't land a plane like this. He should have been dead. So Gary, and here's a really important facet of this story. So when Gary took off that day in the Cessna, his trajectory in his life was to be a pilot. By the time he landed, he knew unequivocally that he was supposed to be a Bible teacher. So the encounter with this craft completely changed the trajectory of his life. And he devoted himself to learning and teaching the Bible, because of that encounter. So I asked Gary, what do you think was in that craft? Who do you think was in that craft? Because they obviously saved his life. And his answer? Angels. We're in that craft. So, but that's a true story. And Gary is a wonderful man. And as I said before, excellent Bible teacher. And that encounter changed his life forever. So that's why it's established in the beginning, that you can't just label. There's no, if you try and be overly simplistic with this phenomenon, you're going to get it wrong.

Speaker 1:
[257:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:
[257:49] It's highly complex. And I always tell people, embrace the complexity. If you're trying to squeeze it into one thing, you're going to be wrong. Because the universe is vast, for one thing. If you're coming from a Christian perspective, you cannot hope to constrain the mind of the maker that you don't even comprehend. In other words, you can't say that God's only created X, Y, Z and that's it. We have no idea what's out there. We have no idea. I don't do that. I don't restrain the mind of a being that I cannot hope to comprehend, the mind being the maker himself. I think that you have a few things happening out there. You have, as I said in the beginning, you have some of what we see are the non-human good guys, the faction that the Bible describes as angels. Some of them are from the same faction, but the bad guys, the ones that we would describe today as quote unquote fallen angels. Then you have a host of other things in the game that maybe we have no idea what the heck they are or where they come from.

Speaker 1:
[258:57] Then the weirdest part of the whole phenomena is it often feels like it mirrors somebody's internal state. When they do these psi attempts to call the craft, I hate to use the word summoning because that inherently sounds dark. It feels like the emotions that get amplified, it's almost like in a psychedelic trip where if you go in with a lot of ego, you have a lot of pain and hardship excavated and you're humbled. It feels like that.

Speaker 2:
[259:37] The way that these guys have described it to me is actually in some cases, it's unbearable and they have to be severed. They can't take it. That's why there's, I think.

Speaker 1:
[259:50] Well, I think a lot of the Legacy program, a lot of these guys have sundowners syndrome.

Speaker 2:
[259:54] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[259:54] They literally lose their minds.

Speaker 2:
[259:55] That's right. Yeah, it's unbearable. You have to be careful because guys can go crazy if they establish a connection. And whatever is happening there is so intense that it's almost like sticking your finger in an electrical socket, you know? At some point, you're going to get fried and they have to cut themselves off or somebody has to sort of remove them from that state. And it can be extremely traumatizing. I know that because the guys have told me themselves, it can be extremely traumatizing because you're interfacing with, number one, something we don't understand. I think that's the first, that's how we started off this conversation. We're interfacing with something we can't control, we don't understand, that's much smarter than we are and probably way older. That's the baseline interaction. Those are the, that's our baseline scenario when we interact with this stuff. So if you're interacting, let's say, psychically, psionically with this phenomenon, you may, because they can control the craft sometimes. And not all these crafts have anybody, have anything inside of them. Some of these things are just like, drone for lack of a better word. And because the mechanism is a mind machine interface, they can actually control some of this, grab hold of it, so to speak. And sometimes they'll grab hold of something and somebody else shows up to break that connection, right? And when that somebody else shows up, there's like this intense personality that's introduced into that scenario. Like another intelligence is suddenly introduced in that scenario and it's overpowering. It's overpowering because their capabilities are much stronger than ours. We're like toddlers. I always warn people, like when you interact with this stuff, it's equivalent, I think it's an accurate analogy, it's like a two-year-old interacting with a nuclear physicist, right? That's what it's like. We're the two-year-old. We can communicate, we can say we're hungry, we're thirsty, whatever, but we're never ever going to outsmart these people.

Speaker 1:
[262:07] Yep.

Speaker 2:
[262:08] We're always going to be manipulated by them. For sure. So we're always at a disadvantage, and this is why there's a prohibition of contact in the Bible. That's why there's a prohibition against divination, because divination is essentially seeking information from other, let's just be very broad in our terminology here, from other non-human intelligences, aside from Yahweh, aside from God.

Speaker 1:
[262:31] So how do you reconcile, because you're clearly very Christian, but you also have an intense interest in this. So how do you reconcile your almost, you know, you think of this whole thing, it's like this forbidden truth, you know, and it's like this kind of constant desire for that, with your adherence to the Bible and Jesus.

Speaker 2:
[262:54] Well, it's a, I wouldn't say it's forbidden. The truth of it, I wouldn't say is forbidden. I would say that, I would say that it's important for Christians to have a very well-developed paradigm that can accommodate things without busting it, shattering it into a million pieces. So an elastic paradigm. So the way that I approach this is, I come at this entire thing from a Christocentric perspective. So what I mean by that is traditionally, the traditional Christian worldview is anthropocentric, which I call the anthropocentric perspective in birthright. From the anthropocentric perspective, and when I say traditional, I mean the traditional Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox view. Mankind is at the center of all things. We are at the center of all things, and the earth is at the center of all things. Not necessarily the center of the universe, but the center of everything happening. I mean, not the center of the solar system in that sense, even though that's the way that they used to think centuries ago. I mean in terms of conceptually speaking, mankind is at the center of everything. And if you think of it like as a wheel, like a wagon wheel, you have the hub and then you have the spokes. From the anthropocentric perspective, mankind is the hub. And everything that's happening in the universe is revolving around him. He is the center of attention in all things. And that's sort of traditionally been the view. And that's people have a hard time then contemplating could there be other extra-terrestrial intelligences. Well, how can that be? How does that fit into this, our wagon wheel here with mankind at the center and everything focusing on mankind? Well, that's not my perspective. In fact, I would say that's not the biblical perspective. The biblical perspective is an anthropocentric, or rather a Christocentric perspective of the universe. So you remove mankind from the center of that wheel, from the hub, and you place Christ at the center, right? And you make us one of the spokes of that wheel. Now, everything revolves around him, the son of God that the Colossians 1, 15-17 that I cited earlier, that he is the center of all things. All things were created through him and for him, and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. That's the Christo-centric perspective. So he's the main character. He's the primary protagonist. We are ancillary characters in his story. Everything, the universe itself was created for him. So once you sort of disassociate, that you disassociate the universe, the purpose of the universe from mankind, that's an important thing. You disassociate the purpose of the universe from mankind. We're not the purpose of the universe anymore. Christ is the purpose of the universe. It's his story, it's his universe. Everything revolves around him. Then that opens up a much larger, much more extensive cosmology. Because he's now at the center of this thing. I'm a spoke in that wheel, right? Along with how many other, who knows what? We know that the sons of God exist. We other non-human, which we went through earlier, pre-exist us. They are preeminent in regard to their nature. Mankind was created to be a little lower than the heavenly beings. So we have non-human intelligence already in the game, biblically speaking. They are part of the story. But the story doesn't revolve around them and it doesn't revolve around us. It revolves around the central figure, the son of God, who sits at the center of this entire thing. So when you do that, you can comfortably begin to accommodate things into a biblical world view. And it doesn't matter anymore. Like it doesn't change, for example, the Gospel of Christ at all, if it turns out that there are, let's say that gray aliens are from Zeta Reticuli. That doesn't do violence to my theological perspective at all. Christ is still at the center of the universe. The Gospel of Christ is still true. And people often raise the contention, well, wait a minute, if you have extra terrestrials, doesn't that mean therefore that Jesus would have had to go and die for all the different alien factions on the different planets or that they all had to have their own version of Jesus? The Bible already answers that question. And the answer is no, because it says he did not help the angels. And what that means that the context is he didn't provide, he didn't do what he did for mankind. He didn't provide a way of reconciliation for the angels like he did for us. And the angels are non-human intelligence who are already in the game. These are already extra terrestrial beings. They're already in the picture biblically speaking. So just adding some more intelligent beings into that equation doesn't change anything, biblically speaking.

Speaker 1:
[267:59] Have you ever read CS. Lewis' Space Trilogy?

Speaker 2:
[268:02] No, and everyone is shocked when I say that.

Speaker 1:
[268:05] I'm shocked.

Speaker 2:
[268:06] You know, I grew up on the Chronicles of Narnia when I was a kid, when I was in grade school and elementary school. I grew up, I mean, I just devoured the Chronicles of Narnia. I just read through the whole seven books and then start over at the beginning, read through them again. And I never cared about, I never wanted to read the space stuff, but everybody always tells me, man, you got to read the space trilogy.

Speaker 1:
[268:26] Yeah, well, because I think of him as another Christian thinker who's, you know, very, very impressive, like a really amazing thinker.

Speaker 2:
[268:37] Very philosophical.

Speaker 1:
[268:37] Very philosophical. And, but then also has this cosmology and writes about this sort of, you know, space war and it's very interesting.

Speaker 2:
[268:46] So I feel like I'm in accord with CS Lewis, even though I've never read any of this.

Speaker 1:
[268:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. This is probably sacrilegious after the last 30 minutes of conversation we just had about religion, but I need to hear this story about the Peruvian face peelers, because it's so gnarly.

Speaker 2:
[269:06] Back in 2023, in the summer of 2023, specifically in the month of June and July, there were these series of videos that hit social media and just went viral, and they featured some indigenous people out in the Peruvian Amazon, who were encountering this phenomenon, and there was something terrifying happening to them, and they were running around at night screaming, yelling, discharging their firearms into the jungle, and then in interviews these individuals, these various villages, but particularly at the center of this was this village called San Antonio de Pintuyacu, and individuals in these videos were being interviewed, and they were saying that they were being attacked by aliens. Some said aliens, others said pelacaras, which translates to face peelers, and obviously something very traumatic was happening. It wasn't just happening in San Antonio de Pintuyacu, it was happening in other villages as well. Multiple villages were being affected. There were reports of people who were being recovered bodies, cadavers that were being recovered without their faces, or faces partially surgically removed. It just spread like wildfire on social media. It turns out that I lived in Peru for 10 years, and I cut my teeth in the Amazon. I speak the particular dialect they speak out there. They speak Spanish, but they speak a dialect of Spanish that they call charapa, which it mixes in some Quechuan words, and that's the kind of Spanish. It's kind of like Hubele Spanish, actually. And it was happening in an area of the Peruvian Amazon that I'm quite familiar with, roughly in the region of Alto Nanay. A lot of this was unfolding. So people were contacting me, and I was watching all of this happen on social media. I made a couple of videos about it with my friend Doug Thornton, and we were talking about the phenomenon, just sort of tracking it, and people were sending me emails and tagging me on social media, begging me to go to Peru. Well, luckily for me, I didn't have my passport at the time. I had sent my passport away to renew it, and it sort of gave me an out, because I really didn't feel like going, because I had to, I was actually had planned a trip with my son, my oldest son, to Guatemala, and I was not going to sacrifice that trip with my son. So, I didn't really want to travel before that, and I honestly just didn't want to go, and people were begging me to go, you need to go up there. Nobody was going. I kept waiting for somebody to go. Nobody was going. There were some interviews with some of the villagers in the city of Iquitos, but nobody went to the village except two provincial policemen with a Navy escort. They went to the village, because the villagers were begging the Navy to come protect them. They were begging the Navy. They were making these videos where they're all holding signs that say, we're under attack. Please help us. They were begging the Navy. These people were clearly not just from San Antonio Pinto Yaco, various villages in the region, Alto Nanay, generally speaking. These policemen went there and did what I described as a piss poor investigation. They interviewed some of the villagers. They interviewed a 15-year-old girl named Talia, who had been, there was an attempted abduction of Talia. These police officers concluded, not based on the testimony of the villagers, they concluded that the villagers were being assaulted by river miners with jetpack technology. Now, if you know anything about river miners and you've spent time in the Amazon jungle, you know that that narrative is absurd.

Speaker 1:
[273:02] Case closed.

Speaker 2:
[273:03] It's absurd. Everybody ran with it. The Peruvian media was all over this thing, took it very seriously until the jetpack miner narrative went out. Then everybody bought it, hook, line, and sinker. Everybody, the Peruvian press, the American press, I even watched a segment on NewsNation where they were choking around like, oh, those pesky miners with jetpacks. Well, it's those guys, obviously. They're trying to drive the villagers off their land. It was absurd.

Speaker 1:
[273:31] Who owns jetpacks, let alone miners on a jetpack?

Speaker 2:
[273:34] It was absurd.

Speaker 1:
[273:35] That's absurd.

Speaker 2:
[273:36] None of these people who are saying this had ever encountered a Peruvian river miner. I have. They certainly don't have jetpacks.

Speaker 1:
[273:44] They're not Tony Stark.

Speaker 2:
[273:46] No, they dump a bunch of mercury in the water, kill everything, and then drudge the bottom on these rusted out boats that can barely move. They don't have any money. The whole thing was absurd. It was absurd. At that point, I thought, okay, I got to go because this is bull crap. It's not jetpack miners. My passport came back and I didn't have any more excuses. I said, all right, I had a little window of time, like a week, right up against my Guatemala trip with my son. So I tagged my friend, Doug Thornton, asked him if he'd go with me. Doug was an infantry Marine and a DHS special operator. So Doug is a great guy to go with. So I organized this expedition. I chartered a river boat and I made contact with the village first. I want to thank the Brazilian ufologist Ronnie Vernet. He put me in contact with the village. In fact, with the kid that had, the young man that had filmed some of these, the footage that went viral, his name was Christian. He was the school teacher. I got in contact with Christian and Christian and I began a dialogue. What I did was he wanted me to record a message on WhatsApp in regard to my intentions. I want to come to this investigation. He played that recording to the APU, the chief of the village and his elders. Then in response, I got an official invitation to go from the APU. I was told that the villagers were in dire straits, that if there was any way I could help, that would be great also. I'm free to come and do whatever investigation I want, but also they're running out of medicine and stuff like that. I contacted some associates of mine, specifically some of the men from Conduit Church, some of these awesome dudes over there who wanted to help me fund this thing. Because I now wanted to go on an aid mission too, to resupply them, medical supplies and stuff. We did. We went to San Antonio de Pintillacu on this chartered riverboat. By the way, all of this is in a YouTube video on my YouTube channel. The APU and some of the guys from the village met us in Iquitos and escorted us up the river. It took a couple of days to get up the river. You go up the Alto Nanay and then you go up the Nanay River and then you go up the Pintillacu from there. When I arrived at the village, I had been in a lot of these villages in Peru. This is the first time I was greeted by a small army of men with loaded shotguns. They were there cheerfully receiving us, but they were armed. All of them were armed. This is how they were always since the incursions have been happening. They were doing patrols. The men were not sleeping at night. They were sleeping during the day and then patrolling at night. They hadn't been going out to their farms. They were traumatized. We unloaded all of the provisions that we brought them. We also brought them in addition to food and medical supplies. We brought them some technology. We brought them some night vision goggles with recording capabilities so that they could see and record the phenomenon. We brought them thermal binoculars. We brought them high-powered flashlights. We brought them really good radios so that they could better protect their village. And I also went with... I hired a couple of active-duty Navy jungle commandos to go with me, proving guys. And so we disembarked and were greeted by these villagers, and they brought me into their tombo, which is their meeting place. Government have built this thing there. San Antonio Pinto Yakuza, it's the Qitu people, and they're a very old community. They're very old, one of the oldest communities in the region. And this is sort of one of their last outposts. And this is one of the last, it is like the last outpost of civilization before just a vast, untracked wilderness, Amazon jungle. So the government had put a communications outpost there, which means the villagers had internet. They had satellite internet. So when I say villagers, they are not people like in grass skirts with blow guns. They are more modernized villagers and they all have cell phones. They watch Marvel movies and stuff sitting in the tombo at night. So they received us very enthusiastically. They did a traditional Iketu dance for us. It was really cool. And then we began our investigation in earnest. And I started to go around with the APU, the chief, to go to the different areas where they had encountered the phenomenon and to interview people. And I'm trying to encapsulate this. So the first thing I came to understand was a lot of people in the village had encountered this phenomenon. It wasn't like one or two people. A lot of them had seen the phenomenon and many of them were traumatized. So like a lot of PTSD. And basically what they were encountering was the way that these incursions would begin was it would be night time, always at night time, always after dark and they would see like too many flying saucers hovering in the air. Right? Just these little saucers with a series of lights around the bottom. And that's how they knew the incursion was about to happen. And then these two little saucers would go fly into the jungle and then land. And then shortly thereafter, they would see two individuals sneaking into the village. And these individuals would be dressed head to foot in black armored body suits with helmets. They were described as very much like the Green Goblin from the Spider-Man movie. Yeah. Because he had that helmet, but he had like kind of the almond-shaped eyes, the yellow almond-shaped eyes.

Speaker 1:
[280:12] And he uses the craft as a hovercraft. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[280:15] So that's what they were saying. It's like the Green Goblin, but without like the big grin on the helmet.

Speaker 1:
[280:20] They would stand on the craft like a hovercraft.

Speaker 2:
[280:22] Yeah. And so what the little flying saucer things that they saw turned out to be circular hoverboards. And these guys were dressed in black armor body suits and their eyes, they had these almond-shaped tinted eye lenses on their helmets. Some said yellow, some said green. Night vision? I don't know. And they were very tall. Everyone said they were taller than me. I'm 6'1. And some people, I would go like this tall, this tall. Some people were like this tall, like, you know, 7, 7, 7.5, 8 feet tall or whatever. So basically, you know, calculating some exaggeration in there. You know, they were probably 6.5, 7 feet tall, conservatively, based on what the villagers told me. So these individuals, they shot some of them at point blank range. With shotguns, 16 gauge bird shot. It had no effect. They were literally here, the BBs dinking off of their armor. And one guy said he was confronted, one of these guys confronted him. Well, he confronted one of these assailants at night. And this particular guy was dressed in a silver suit. And he was so adamant. He's like, I know all the other people are saying black, but what I saw the guy was silver head to foot. And he said, I shot him at point blank range with a shotgun. And in the blast, the shotgun, he could hear the BBs dink off the armor and it knocked the guy back on his butt. And by the way, when he shot him, the guy was hovering, not on a hoverboard, just off of his boots. They had these two circular disks on the bottom of their boots that emitted a light and they could hover. So he was floating. He said, he was floating about a meter off the ground. I shot him, he fell back on his back from the blast and then pop right back up and just like zoomed away. A lot of the villagers saw these guys. A handful of them shot at them. One of the villagers said that he saw a larger disk hovering in the sky. He put his flashlight on it and he saw two guys, the silhouettes of two of these armored guys together, both of them on one circular disk. So sometimes there was just one guy and they're like surfing on them. In addition to the black armored body suits, these assailants, that technology and the hoverboard technology, it's clear that there was also advanced aerospace vehicles involved. Because more than a few villagers, one guy drew it on an acrylic chalkboard for me, saw an almond shape, rather a acorn shaped craft, but like prone, like on its side.

Speaker 1:
[283:03] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[283:05] They all drew the same thing. They all drew it for me, all the ones who told me about this. They drew it in the dirt for me, or I had them draw it in the dirt for me, or the one guy drew it on the acrylic chalkboard. I've got that on film. They all drew the same thing. Some of them saw it close encounter, like 40 feet in the air above their hut. Some people describe it as Matt Black, hovering silently, no propellers, no propulsion. Remember, these people are watching all the same movies we are, on their phones. They know what airplanes are. They know what helicopters are. These aren't like primitive, like I said, natives. One guy said, the guy who drew it on the acrylic chalkboard said that he was pulling up his nets at night. As he was doing that, it was like he said, it's like somebody turned the lights on or the sun suddenly came up. He looks up and 30, 40 feet above him is one of these craft, almond shape, I keep saying almond shape, acorn shape craft. He said, but this one was translucent. It was like it had a mesh, a transparent mesh. He could see the mesh like looking through a screen door, and he saw two guys inside of it, two people or beings or something inside of it, one in the front, one in like the belly of it. It projected a light down on him, and it had these little stubby protrusions and they opened up, and there was like a series of blinking lights, and then they folded back in and it started to move off. He said, when it started to move off, there was a low-frequency hum. So, you have, not only you have these armored assailants on these hoverboards, you have advanced aerospace vehicles, unconventional technology being deployed in the Amazon, Peru, the Alto Nanay region, various different villages. Now.

Speaker 1:
[284:51] Well, why are they called face peelers?

Speaker 2:
[284:56] Because the indigenous people, if you ask them who these assailants are, half of them will say they're aliens, half of them will say they're face peelers. And what they mean by face peelers is the face peeler legend goes back to the 80s, like the mid-80s. And it doesn't go further than that. And they say that these, they call them gringos, started showing up with technology. And sort of like the boogeyman, the wives, I mean, the mothers and fathers would tell their children, don't go out at night, the face peeler will get you. Because every now and again, there'd be an attack by face peelers, and the cadaver of the person would go missing, and then they would show up later without a piece of their face gone, or their whole face. And sometimes their organs are harvested. So some villagers think these are gringos, like CIA, you know, whatever. That's, you know, everything CIA to people out there. So they probably thought I was CIA. But so there was the most important incident happened with this, one of the most important incidents with this 15 year old girl named Talia. She was almost abducted. That's why they, the police went out there. They had to go out there because there was an attempt at abduction kidnapping. So they had to go investigate. So we interviewed Talia. The first time I saw her, she was in the village, in the middle of the village. During the evening, everybody was out. All the men were playing soccer. The women were playing volleyball. She was sitting by herself against a wall. The APU pointed her out to us. Me and Doug just were sort of, we didn't really want to approach her. We didn't want to freak her out. She's just sitting there kind of smiling, watching the people play volleyball and soccer, just sort of sitting there by herself smiling. She looked over. She saw us and instantly she started to tremble. She just started trembling. And she froze up and she's just freaked out. And she took her hair, she had long hair. She took it and moved it over to the side of her face so we couldn't see her face. And she just sat there trembling. And the Appu brought her father over and we said, hey, we'd love to interview Talia, but obviously she's very scared. So he went over to her, tried to convince her to talk to us. She did not want anything to do with us. She associated us with her assailants. But the father told us, hey, here's where I live. Come back over tomorrow morning. I'll talk to her. You guys just come and I'll bring her out to you. And so that's what we did the next morning. Long story short, we were standing in this guy's backyard. He brought Talia out to us to talk to her. And as soon as she saw, she started trembling again and crying. Severe PTSD. And she had a scar right here. And so I interviewed Talia and she told me a wild story. I mean, I don't really have the time to tell it right now, but there was an attempt to kidnapping of her by these assailants one evening. And there's a lot of details that goes into this, but they captured her in her backyard. They landed on hoverboards. That's how it began. She was poking at a piece of fruit in the evening just after sundown, or as it's getting dark, the fruit hit the ground, she bent over to pick it up and she felt this gust of wind. And she looks over and it's one of these guys, assailants, head to foot in black armored body suits, right? It's one guy, he's surfing on this hoverboard, and they all go like this when they tell me. They're like surfing. And the guy comes, there's a little gauley, he comes up the hill, hovering, and lands the board right behind her, and grabs her from behind, from behind, grabs her mouth and grabs her. And then another guy, same thing, comes surfing up from the gauley, lands in front of her, grabs her feet. And then they both lift her off the ground. And she said when they, after they landed, they reached down and touched something on their boot to engage the technology, lifted off the ground and then they hovered her, carried her behind this chicken coop, this thatch roof chicken coop. And they're proceeded to, without going to all the details, to attempt to cut her face off. They took out what we think was a, like a laser scalpel. And they began, first they put some cream on her face, which numbed her face. First they shot something up her nose with a syringe. And she became disoriented. And then they put cream on her face and took out this, what we think is a laser scalpel, and began to make the incision. And in fact, she heard them speaking. One of them she referred to as the gringo, because he sounded like me, she said. And the other one sounded like a Peruvian. So, and when they're getting ready to do this, they're putting the cream on her face before they start making the incision. One of them said to the other, be careful, be careful. Don't put too much on her face. It'll ruin the flesh. And she said that what she thought they meant was, she heard them saying something about how it makes it difficult to separate the skin from the flesh beneath it. So then they proceeded to make the incision, and she started just one last effort to break loose. She started to push up the helmet on the guy behind her, and he let go for to pull his helmet down. He didn't want her to see him. And when he let go of her, she screamed. And everyone in the village was already in a state of vigilance. This wasn't the first incursion. So they're all sitting on their porches at night with their guns and their flashlights, getting ready to start doing patrols. So when she screamed, they were on scene. Her brother and people who lived near her were on scene within very short order. And they saw Talia laying on the ground in a state of disorientation. And the two assailants, they were dragging her by the hair, actually, at first, and they were trying to lift her off the ground to take her. By her hair. And the one guy said, you know, let her go. We can't take her or something like that. And he dropped her. And then the other people came on the scene. Talia remembered that part. She was being pulled by her hair. And then when the others...

Speaker 1:
[291:11] And you show in your video the laser incision. And it's crazy.

Speaker 2:
[291:14] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[291:14] I mean...

Speaker 2:
[291:15] So when the other villagers arrive, they see the assailants hovering on the disks. And they got their flashlights on them. And they went right up through the canopy. Wow. And I could tell you many other such...

Speaker 1:
[291:31] So what does this have to do with Michael Herrera, who's this UFO whistle blower?

Speaker 2:
[291:36] Very, very, very quickly.

Speaker 1:
[291:37] Indonesia. Okay.

Speaker 2:
[291:40] So very, very quickly, I need to make sure people understand these incursions didn't just happen in remote villages in the jungle. They also happened in the city of Nauta. 36,000 inhabitants hardened target with the Navy presence, Peruvian Navy presence, militaries, helicopters. Okay. It's not miners with jet packs trying to drive people off of the land so they could mine the water, the river. That's not what this phenomenon is. The fact that the incursions were happening in Nauta absolutely debunks that narrative. So the Michael Herrera thing, I think what we're looking at is, and Michael is a friend of mine, and he had a, as everyone knows, I won't retrace his story, but he encountered a disk, a large disk in Indonesia.

Speaker 1:
[292:27] Yeah. It was an eight-gon craft that was blacker than black, and he was apprehended by these people that weren't special forces but had super advanced technology, some paramilitary group, and they seemed to be escorting these psionic assets on board this exotic manned craft that flew off.

Speaker 2:
[292:47] They were engaging in human trafficking.

Speaker 1:
[292:49] That's what it seems like.

Speaker 2:
[292:49] Very simple terms. Exactly. The connection there is nefarious people, paramilitary organizations with advanced aerospace craft, using it for the most abominable things imaginable, including human trafficking. For whatever purposes. Harvesting psionic assets, which they do.

Speaker 1:
[293:13] In this case, peeling flesh?

Speaker 2:
[293:15] In this case, peeling flesh, but I think they were using the face peeler phenomenon as a cover.

Speaker 1:
[293:20] For what?

Speaker 2:
[293:21] Something else that was going on. Very quickly, there was an operation happening, a joint operation happening in Peru that had some crossover when these incursions were happening in the jungle. It was called Resolute Sentinel. It involved basically every military agency we have. The marines were there in Peru, the Air Force, the Navy.

Speaker 1:
[293:42] That's not a coincidence.

Speaker 2:
[293:43] The Space Force was there, the Coast Guard. They were running joint operations, training operations with the Peruvian military, Uruguay, I think Ecuador, Brazil. The UK was involved. It was like.

Speaker 1:
[293:57] So what would the face peeling be a distraction from?

Speaker 2:
[294:00] I don't know, but I always wonder if that Resolute Sentinel was a cover. I'd like to think it was a cover for some sort of benevolent operation happening to try and drive these guys out or capture them or something. I don't know. I hate to think that we were experimenting with something out there.

Speaker 1:
[294:21] That would be awful.

Speaker 2:
[294:23] I hate to think that and I don't want to think that, but or is there some sort of third party in possession of some subcontracting apparatus underneath these aerospace contractors who maybe have gone rogue?

Speaker 1:
[294:41] Some nefarious global breakaway.

Speaker 2:
[294:43] Exactly. Is that what we're looking at here?

Speaker 1:
[294:46] On that sinister note.

Speaker 2:
[294:48] There's a whole lot more to be said of this. We're out of time.

Speaker 1:
[294:50] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[294:51] You can look at my video on YouTube and Facebook.

Speaker 1:
[294:52] Yeah. Well, we'll cut parts of it in, but this was amazing, Timothy. I really appreciate your time, man. This was a blast and I love the way you think. We got to run it back because I think we just did like four hours and 45 minutes or something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[295:07] Man, it was my pleasure. You do just amazing work and just keep going.

Speaker 1:
[295:12] Thanks, man.

Speaker 2:
[295:12] You're awesome.

Speaker 1:
[295:13] Likewise, let me get you to the airport. Yeah, let's go.

Speaker 2:
[295:15] Let's get out of here.