transcript
Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[00:30] Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did, and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[01:00] Andy Weir in the house.
Speaker 5:
[01:01] Yes, he is.
Speaker 4:
[01:02] Author of the novel, Project Hail Mary.
Speaker 5:
[01:04] That's correct.
Speaker 4:
[01:05] We're gonna talk to him, but there's gonna be spoilers.
Speaker 5:
[01:07] Yeah, lots of spoilers, but you know why? Because you didn't read the damn book. That's right. That's the problem.
Speaker 4:
[01:13] Coming up on Star Talk. Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And right next to me, I got Lord Chuck Nice.
Speaker 5:
[01:40] What's up, Neil? Chuck, how you doing, man? How you feeling? I'm feeling great.
Speaker 4:
[01:43] Yeah, you look good.
Speaker 5:
[01:44] Well, thank you, sir.
Speaker 4:
[01:45] You know, looking healthy.
Speaker 5:
[01:47] Well, that may not be the case, but, you know, it's good to look that way.
Speaker 4:
[01:51] Whether or not you actually are.
Speaker 5:
[01:53] Who cares if I'm actually healthy or not? As long as I look good.
Speaker 4:
[01:57] We got a good show today. We certainly do. We have a repeat guest.
Speaker 5:
[02:01] That's correct. Many times.
Speaker 4:
[02:03] Many times. I looked at the numbers. I said, hasn't boy been on this show that many times?
Speaker 5:
[02:07] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[02:08] And I said, no, yeah. We have the one, the only, Andy Weir.
Speaker 6:
[02:13] Andy, hello.
Speaker 4:
[02:14] Welcome back to StarTalk.
Speaker 6:
[02:15] Thanks for having me again.
Speaker 4:
[02:16] This is like your sixth time.
Speaker 6:
[02:17] You think you guys would learn by now.
Speaker 5:
[02:19] You think?
Speaker 4:
[02:20] You keep writing books and we keep bringing you back.
Speaker 6:
[02:22] I like it.
Speaker 4:
[02:23] You were birthed into this world as a, was it a software engineer?
Speaker 6:
[02:28] Well, it took me a while between birth and becoming a software engineer, but yes.
Speaker 5:
[02:32] I was going to say that was one seriously developmental womb. Yeah.
Speaker 6:
[02:37] There wasn't a lot of software engineering in 1972. There was some though. I mean, the Apollo program.
Speaker 4:
[02:42] I turned sci-fi novelist, extraordinaire man from The Martian, a best-selling book, which became a best, a very popular movie.
Speaker 6:
[02:55] A hit.
Speaker 4:
[02:56] A hit movie. A movie with all kinds of marquee actors in it, like Jessica Chastain and Matt Damon. And Matt Damon.
Speaker 5:
[03:04] It was Mark Watley.
Speaker 2:
[03:05] Watney.
Speaker 5:
[03:06] Was it Watney?
Speaker 6:
[03:07] It is Watney.
Speaker 2:
[03:07] Oh, okay.
Speaker 5:
[03:08] So that's the guy who wrote it.
Speaker 7:
[03:10] Whatever.
Speaker 6:
[03:13] At the time, I lived in Boston when I first started writing it, and I lived alone because I was a loser. And I was like, at the time, I was really into Red Sox games, and they had a sideline reporter named Heidi Watney.
Speaker 5:
[03:25] Oh, really?
Speaker 6:
[03:25] And so I'm like, I like that name. I like that name. I'm taking it.
Speaker 5:
[03:29] Okay.
Speaker 6:
[03:29] So, Heidi Watney, if you're out there, Mark's named after you.
Speaker 5:
[03:33] Actually, Heidi, no, no, no, no, he's not, because we don't want to owe you any money, okay? So, Andy doesn't know what he's saying. He's been drinking since noon. Okay.
Speaker 6:
[03:43] StarTalk personally takes responsibility for any monetary compensation.
Speaker 4:
[03:49] There you go. So, what year did The Martian come out?
Speaker 6:
[03:53] Well, it took me years to write the book. I started writing it in 2009, finished around 2012. The book came out, I think, 2013 or 14.
Speaker 4:
[04:01] So, early teens. So, the movie comes out in 2015. 2015, the movie. So, that's a quick turnaround between the men.
Speaker 6:
[04:08] Yes, it was very fast.
Speaker 5:
[04:10] So, congratulations on that. Was the book that popular? It was like a meteoric rise through the rankings. Boom, let's make a movie.
Speaker 4:
[04:17] I see what you did in meteoric rise.
Speaker 5:
[04:19] I see what you did there.
Speaker 6:
[04:20] Meteors usually go down, not up. That's true.
Speaker 5:
[04:22] That's not true. They also just go around.
Speaker 4:
[04:25] No, no.
Speaker 6:
[04:25] That's asteroids.
Speaker 5:
[04:26] No, no.
Speaker 4:
[04:26] You're right.
Speaker 5:
[04:29] The moment they break the atmosphere, right?
Speaker 4:
[04:30] A meteor is doomed.
Speaker 6:
[04:34] See, because inaccurate fun is not fun. You understand. So anyway.
Speaker 5:
[04:38] You have been hanging out with the wrong people, okay?
Speaker 4:
[04:42] So The Martian, you also bagged a marquee director for that.
Speaker 6:
[04:46] Yes, Ridley Scott.
Speaker 5:
[04:47] Ridley Scott, yeah.
Speaker 6:
[04:48] Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker 4:
[04:49] And he did Blade Runner. I mean, the guy's pedigreeing in this phase. No, yes.
Speaker 5:
[04:54] Yeah, Ridley Scott, that's the one.
Speaker 4:
[04:55] Alien 1, not Alien 2, because that was?
Speaker 6:
[04:58] That was James Cameron.
Speaker 4:
[04:59] James Cameron.
Speaker 6:
[05:00] Right.
Speaker 4:
[05:00] So congratulations on that.
Speaker 6:
[05:01] Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4:
[05:02] Yeah, yeah, and so that was followed by Artemis.
Speaker 6:
[05:07] Artemis, which is the only one of my books not to be made into a movie. So I mark my words, I will make it happen.
Speaker 5:
[05:13] It is now a space program, though.
Speaker 6:
[05:15] Yes, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 4:
[05:16] What more do you want? Jeez.
Speaker 6:
[05:18] I want a movie.
Speaker 5:
[05:21] Good answer.
Speaker 6:
[05:22] Thank you.
Speaker 4:
[05:23] Wait, wait, so how many total books do you have?
Speaker 6:
[05:25] Just three.
Speaker 4:
[05:25] But yeah, so that sentence, it's the only one of my books not to be made into a movie. You only wrote three damn books, dude.
Speaker 6:
[05:33] Plural is, the plural is correct in this case. I have had books made into movies.
Speaker 4:
[05:40] True. So we brought you here because you have your latest project.
Speaker 6:
[05:44] I see what you did there.
Speaker 4:
[05:45] You see what I did there? Project Hail Mary. Another best-selling book. It's still on the shelves. I see it wherever I go. And that's now a film starring Ken.
Speaker 6:
[05:55] That's right.
Speaker 5:
[05:56] Right. I didn't realize that. Yeah.
Speaker 6:
[05:59] Also known as Ryan Gosling.
Speaker 4:
[06:01] Oh, is that his name?
Speaker 6:
[06:01] That's right.
Speaker 4:
[06:02] He was such a good Ken.
Speaker 6:
[06:03] He was a great Ken.
Speaker 4:
[06:04] Hard for me to shake that. We're not worried about spoilers in this because the book predates the movie.
Speaker 6:
[06:09] Right.
Speaker 4:
[06:10] So the storyline is out there.
Speaker 6:
[06:12] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[06:12] It's not some secret. Right. But spare the viewer, listener, the ending.
Speaker 6:
[06:18] The finale, yeah.
Speaker 4:
[06:18] The finale. But catch us up on just the most important plot development of that story.
Speaker 5:
[06:24] You know, for the people who don't read.
Speaker 6:
[06:27] Well, the idea is that an alien microbe that they later name Astrophage.
Speaker 4:
[06:32] Astro is star.
Speaker 6:
[06:33] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[06:33] Phage is eat. Eat. Yeah. So it eats stars.
Speaker 6:
[06:37] Well, that's what they named it.
Speaker 4:
[06:38] That's what they named it, okay.
Speaker 6:
[06:38] It's more like.
Speaker 4:
[06:39] They. Not like he had anything to do with it.
Speaker 6:
[06:41] No, I.
Speaker 4:
[06:42] The characters just went on their own. They named it. Okay.
Speaker 6:
[06:45] Yeah. And they called it astrophagy. What it does is it lives on the surface of the sun and it absorbs energy and turns it into mass. It uses that mass to create light as propulsion so that it can migrate to a nearby planet with carbon dioxide so that it can get the heavier elements it needs to reproduce. And then that and its sister cell, or sorry, the two daughter cells return back to the star and the cycle continues. And so, and it spores out away from stars to go infect other stars. It's just basically like mold or algae.
Speaker 5:
[07:18] Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 6:
[07:19] The problem is that it grows exponentially and there's now so much astrophage on our sun that it's going to dim it. And it is dimming it already and it will dim it to the point where earth is no longer habitable by anything. And so, but they notice all of the stars in our local cluster have the same problem. They've all dimmed and except Tau Ceti. So they're like, why didn't Tau Ceti have any dimming? So they're like, we're going to make an interstellar spacecraft to find out how. And you know, it's like, how do we make an interstellar spacecraft with modern day technology? You use astrophage as the fuel.
Speaker 5:
[07:56] Of course.
Speaker 6:
[07:56] Because it does mass conversion propulsion.
Speaker 5:
[07:58] Right.
Speaker 6:
[07:59] And that is the, the principal conflict of the story. Now, do you want me to talk more about what happened today?
Speaker 5:
[08:07] By the way, let me just say, were you high when you thought of this?
Speaker 8:
[08:11] No.
Speaker 6:
[08:12] No.
Speaker 5:
[08:13] Like, because Phil just rolled off his tongue. I mean, yeah, you see how, I mean, and by the way, it's actually, it's completely feasible. It's circular and feasible all at once. Like, I mean, that's pretty wild.
Speaker 4:
[08:26] Yeah, of course, this is how that would have gone down.
Speaker 5:
[08:28] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[08:29] Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Yeah. So Andy, what we love and deeply respect about you is how much attention you give to the scientific detail infused within your storytelling. Because most stories don't get that level of attention.
Speaker 6:
[08:42] I always imagine you looking over my shoulder, Neil.
Speaker 4:
[08:44] No, I have that quote.
Speaker 6:
[08:45] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[08:46] I have the exact quote. I would quote it now. Here it is, go ahead. Okay.
Speaker 6:
[08:50] This is from like 10 years ago or so.
Speaker 4:
[08:53] 10 years ago, here it was. Okay. And this is my second highest compliment I've ever gotten. Okay. Whenever I was tempted to use hand wavy physics or take a shortcut and not be accurate, I honestly thought to myself, what if Neil deGrasse Tyson reads this?
Speaker 6:
[09:14] Wow. That's true.
Speaker 4:
[09:15] Man. Cause he'd know I'd be tweeting about it.
Speaker 5:
[09:17] Exactly.
Speaker 6:
[09:18] I imagine you looking over my shoulder while I'm typing.
Speaker 5:
[09:21] That's, yeah. That would creep me out.
Speaker 4:
[09:25] That's not what he means by that.
Speaker 7:
[09:26] Oh, okay.
Speaker 6:
[09:30] Don't worry, man. He doesn't have to be like be over your shoulder. He's got cameras in your house.
Speaker 4:
[09:35] True that. So the astrophase, we spent a little bit of time on your last visit talking about that fascinating organism. And in this one, it's one of the few sci-fi films where there's more than one kind of alien in it. And so let's spend some time on the other alien who the lead character be friends. And this other alien, it kind of looks like a pile of rocks. But it moves like a crab.
Speaker 6:
[10:05] Little bit.
Speaker 4:
[10:06] Yeah, so what's your thinking behind that life form?
Speaker 6:
[10:09] Well, I started off with the exoplanet that he's from, which was at the time believed to be a real exoplanet, and has since been proven to be nothing more than like solar flare activity from Fort Eridani, which is a bummer. Within the context of when I wrote it, I started with what was known about that exoplanet.
Speaker 4:
[10:25] For those who were never amateur astronomers, because they're the ones who know the sky, they know everything about the night sky. The way we label stars and constellations that are sort of visible easily, we sequence them by Greek letter, and it's followed by the genitive form of the constellation name. So the brightest star in the constellation, Cetus, which means the whale. Cetus is the whale. The brightest will be Alpha Ceti. The second brightest would be?
Speaker 5:
[10:57] Beta Ceti.
Speaker 4:
[10:58] Beta Ceti, third.
Speaker 5:
[10:59] Whatever comes out of that.
Speaker 6:
[11:01] Gamma Ceti.
Speaker 4:
[11:03] Gamma Ceti, okay. So you move on your way down. So Tau Ceti is not one of the brighter stars in the constellation Cetus. And the genitive name for Cetus would be Ceti. Then, there are certain people who catalog stars going much deeper than naked eye and binoculars, and then they just number the stars. And it's not as romantic, but it's very precise in cataloging. Okay. Yeah. So what star system is this?
Speaker 6:
[11:26] Well, this would be in 40 Eridani.
Speaker 4:
[11:28] Eridani, so that would be Eridanus.
Speaker 6:
[11:30] Eridanus.
Speaker 4:
[11:31] Which is the river.
Speaker 6:
[11:32] The river.
Speaker 4:
[11:32] Okay. So there's a non-living thing in the sky. Well, there's several actually, but this is a river. And I've always disappointed with the river.
Speaker 6:
[11:39] Okay.
Speaker 4:
[11:40] Because I think it's just leftover stars that didn't fit into other constellations. Because it's just kind of there, you know, let me grab a couple of these stars, a couple of those, and now call me something, Eridanius. So this other life form, which is rocky.
Speaker 6:
[11:58] Rocky.
Speaker 5:
[11:59] Rocky-like.
Speaker 6:
[12:00] Well, Iridian is what they, is what his species has. Eridian species, yeah. Yeah, so Fortierodani had, it was believed at the time, an exoplanet around Fortierodani A. If you'd like to describe the details of the trinary star system, you can now, or we can just skip over it.
Speaker 4:
[12:20] Skip over it.
Speaker 6:
[12:21] Skip over it. Okay, so Fortierodani A is the primary star, and Fortierodani AB is the planet closest to that star. And that was an exoplanet that was eight Earth masses, took about 46 Earth days to orbit the star, very, very close to the star. Turns out, doesn't exist at all. It was a mistake made, and our more accurate methods of exoplanet detection have disproven it. But at the time...
Speaker 4:
[12:45] So he's not describing the plot of the film.
Speaker 5:
[12:47] Right. He's just saying it's the actual science behind...
Speaker 4:
[12:49] Which misled him initially to...
Speaker 6:
[12:51] Yes, to believing that it was there. Anyway, so starting from that planet, I said, well, it's gonna be really hot, because it's very close to its star. It's closer to its star than Mercury is.
Speaker 5:
[13:00] Wow.
Speaker 6:
[13:00] And then I said, but because all life in the story was caused by a pan-spermia event that radiated out from Talsetti, including all life on Earth, including all life on Arid, which is the nickname of the planet, everything has to be water-based. So how do we have liquid water on a planet that's really, really hot? And the answer is, have a really, really high atmospheric pressure, because water won't boil. So like their oceans are over 200 degrees Celsius.
Speaker 4:
[13:26] Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius at atmospheric pressure, at our atmospheric pressure.
Speaker 6:
[13:32] Yeah, so they have 29 atmospheres at their surface, and so water, even 200 degrees Celsius water won't boil.
Speaker 4:
[13:38] Wait a minute, so you backed into these alien properties from what would have to be the properties of a planet that we would later show doesn't exist?
Speaker 6:
[13:48] Yes, that's right. Unfortunate. Anyway, if I was gonna make up a fake planet, if it was gonna be an imaginary planet in the first place, I didn't have to constrain myself. Anyway.
Speaker 4:
[13:58] So constraints are, is the soul of creativity to all engineers?
Speaker 6:
[14:03] Yes. So anyway, I decided it would have to have a thick atmosphere. How do you have a thick atmosphere when you're that close to the sun? A star is like sand blasting your atmosphere off. So you got two things you can do. You can do what Venus does or you can do what Earth does. You can do what Venus does, which is have really heavy molecules that are hard to knock out of the planet's gravity well. Venus has carbon dioxide. I decided Forti Aradani has ammonia. There's ammonia everywhere in our system, so why not? And then the other thing you can do is have a really powerful magnetic field like Earth does. So I decided Forti Aradani, I've decided Arad rather, has a tremendous magnetic field. The way you get a magnetic field is, Neil, spin, baby spin, as a mumbo king.
Speaker 4:
[14:43] No, you need a conducting core.
Speaker 6:
[14:46] Yeah, you need a mold iron core with convection, but then also spin to make a dynamo. So their magnetic field is about 25 times as powerful as ours, and they rotate once every six hours. So that planet spins like crazy. But with those two things combined, Rocky's dizzy. With those two things combined, I figured that's enough to protect the atmosphere. So now finally I have liquid water on this exoplanet.
Speaker 4:
[15:07] That was a long way to go to get that puppy some liquid water.
Speaker 6:
[15:10] And then with those constraints, I'm like, well, I'm not sure light would make it to the surface through that thick an atmosphere. Ammonia has a color at large scales. So I decided that no light gets to the surface. And so the biosphere works kind of like an ocean. There's photophilic life up top that absorbs the sunlight and reproduces that way. And then beneath that, there's life that eats it. Beneath that, there's life that eats it. Just like our ocean.
Speaker 5:
[15:35] Like our ocean.
Speaker 6:
[15:36] Yeah. And then so the apex predators are things that are the iridians, which are the intelligent species. They live on the surface. There's no light down there. There's no reason for them to evolve eyes. Of course. And they do everything through echolocation, et cetera, et cetera. So bit by bit, I put it together. There's also no free oxygen in the air. So they have to have an enclosed body that deals with the carbon dioxide, oxygen, back and forth reactions. So they have different kinds of cells within their body. Everything's fine as long as they keep adding energy to the system. So they need to eat food that's found on the ground. That's why they're obligate predators. So all this-
Speaker 5:
[16:09] It's kind of like some of the animals that live near volcanic vents here on earth.
Speaker 6:
[16:14] Well, for their biosphere, they're not really extremophiles. This is the normal thing for them. But they are obligate carnivores. And so if you imagine things that live on the seafloor, like crabs or things like that, so far down that the light isn't even reaching them, but there's still plenty to eat. Right.
Speaker 2:
[16:44] Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did, and have one of your assistance assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.
Speaker 3:
[17:03] Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.
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Speaker 8:
[17:42] There's a fire inside you, you can't ignore. Stand still, not a chance.
Speaker 1:
[17:47] You're a lifelong learner who's come this far.
Speaker 8:
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Speaker 9:
[17:58] This is Ken the nerd neck Zabara from Michigan and I support Star Talk on Patreon. This is Star Talk Radio with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Speaker 4:
[18:17] It looks like a pile of rocks, an animated pile of rocks, but the appendages move in a crab-like way.
Speaker 6:
[18:24] Well, he has five legs or arms, they can use them interchangeably, that each end in three claws. And so it's pentagonally symmetrical, you might say. And he doesn't actually move specifically like a crab. He walks on those legs, but he can walk on three of them while holding stuff with two of them, or he can walk on two of them even if he needs to.
Speaker 4:
[18:49] I've learned in the Wiki fan page of your book.
Speaker 6:
[18:52] Oh, excellent. An undeniable source of absolute truth.
Speaker 8:
[18:56] Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:
[18:58] And I hadn't thought about it, and I read this before I saw a preview of your film. The creature does not have a front or a back.
Speaker 6:
[19:07] Right, because it has, so the way it does its echolocation is it has, I call them oracles, but they're basically like all over his body, just like we have nerve endings for touch, he has nerve endings for sound, and so his brain untangles all that information. Like an octopus. He knows his body shape and his position. An iridian might reach out his arm to get a better view of, he's like, let me hear this a little better.
Speaker 5:
[19:35] It's like this. That's his way of doing that.
Speaker 6:
[19:39] A little bit. And also, wouldn't it be neat if you could just go like this, and the room gets brighter for a second? You could be like, you know, because that's how that works. Because of that, they have a constant input of their 3D environment. Constantly going on in all directions.
Speaker 4:
[19:56] There has to be some sound somewhere for that to be the case.
Speaker 6:
[19:58] That's true, but there's always ambient sound. It's wind or whatever, and if they don't have any, they can make some, right? So they have this constant input of their 3D environment. So they don't have the part of their brain that we have that maintains cognition of what's around it. So you're looking at me, but you know what's behind you. In your brain, you don't have to think about it. Your brain's just keeping track of that. You know there's a bookshelf there. In a way, you can see it in your mind. You know where it is.
Speaker 4:
[20:26] And if I turn around and it's not there, I'll notice it's not there.
Speaker 6:
[20:28] You'll notice it's not there. They don't have that part of a brain. They don't have to track that because they constantly have 360-degree input. It's like if you had eyes all the way around your head. That's pretty brilliant. Now, if they suddenly can't hear anything, they will lose all of that information. If you close your eyes, you still know pretty much everything that's going on. Well, no, but in addition to that, just close your eyes. You know where everything is in the room. I mean, not precisely, and you probably bump into stuff, but you know there's a table there, a microphone here, a chair here, bookshelves, Neil's desk, Neil, you.
Speaker 5:
[20:59] Why wouldn't they be able to do the same thing we do? Because when we close our eyes, we have lost the input, but what we're doing is recreating it in our mind.
Speaker 6:
[21:08] Your mind has a whole system of maintaining a 3D model of your environment because you can't look at it all the time.
Speaker 5:
[21:16] I understand what you're saying. Because our minds are acclimated to always tracking what's around us and persisting. If we didn't have that, when that would be taken away, we'd be lost immediately because they don't need to do that.
Speaker 6:
[21:31] Basically, they don't have object permanence.
Speaker 4:
[21:33] Yeah, this is that famous test with infants.
Speaker 5:
[21:35] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[21:36] It's a famous test. The object's still there when it goes behind the wall. And until a certain age, it goes behind the wall and then they just look somewhere else.
Speaker 5:
[21:44] It's gone.
Speaker 4:
[21:45] And then after a certain age, they'll look and they'll anticipate it coming out the other side.
Speaker 6:
[21:49] That's why peekaboo is so effective with infants. You vanish from reality.
Speaker 5:
[21:54] I was gonna say, I still like it.
Speaker 6:
[21:56] Chuck's still working on object permanence. Well, they do have object permanence. Iridians, if something leaves their sensory input, they do, but they don't have that spatial map in their heads.
Speaker 4:
[22:06] Richard Dawkins thinks that bats that use echolocation, being mammals, that means they're structurally similar to us in important ways. He thinks they might use echolocation and map colors onto it. He thinks they might be able to, because they have the capacity to think of color, why not add color to echolocation of objects? I mean, why not?
Speaker 5:
[22:27] Why not, yeah. I mean, the only way we'll know is to ask a bat.
Speaker 6:
[22:32] Ask a bat.
Speaker 4:
[22:32] Right.
Speaker 6:
[22:34] What color is this? Exactly. Well, one thing I saw, interestingly, is they took a thing, you know, how the cones in your eye react to different wavelengths. So, there's red, green, and blue cones, and there's overlap and stuff like that. Well, there are some activations that never happen, because, like, any wavelength in this range will activate your greens a little bit and your blues a little bit, and stuff like that. And so, what they did for the hell of it, I think, was they took somebody, they took human test subjects and shined lasers into their eyes to just activate the blue cones. And so, now their brain is getting a signal that has just blue cone activation and no green cone activation. And that makes a new color, because they have never experienced that in their life. And they have a hard time describing it. They say, it's like this really, really brilliant, bright, bright blue, which should surprise no one. But it's interesting, imagine being able to go in and have somebody shoot a laser in your eye and see a color you have never seen. Nor will you ever see again, because it can only be done by specifically activating those. We are way off topic.
Speaker 4:
[23:46] No, I love me some color, color is good. No, I love me some color. So, through your pen, through your mind, the main character names this life form Rocky.
Speaker 6:
[23:58] Rocky, because he looks like a rock.
Speaker 5:
[23:59] He looks like a bunch of rocks.
Speaker 4:
[24:00] A bunch of rocks.
Speaker 6:
[24:01] Very imagined.
Speaker 4:
[24:01] Okay, then, it took me a half second, I want to alert people of this so that they don't lose this half second. Everyone on Rocky's planet is facing the same fate as people from Earth. And they both notice this one star that is not dimming. And they got to find out what's going on there and not over here. So they both arrive at the same star for the same purpose with the same mission.
Speaker 5:
[24:29] Oh my God.
Speaker 4:
[24:30] And what an alignment that is. It is.
Speaker 5:
[24:32] It's like Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks at the Empire State Building.
Speaker 4:
[24:38] He asks Rocky, is there someone back at home?
Speaker 5:
[24:41] Yeah. Okay. And Rocky goes, Adrian, well, and you can't understand him.
Speaker 4:
[24:50] So, okay, I'll call you Rocky and I'll call your mate Adrian. Adrian.
Speaker 5:
[24:56] Okay.
Speaker 4:
[24:57] But you got it. That's very pop culture.
Speaker 6:
[25:01] Very pop culture.
Speaker 4:
[25:02] Retro. Decades retro.
Speaker 5:
[25:04] I'm from Philly. It's totally fine. We love it. It's 50 years ago.
Speaker 6:
[25:08] I am decades retro.
Speaker 5:
[25:09] Yes.
Speaker 6:
[25:10] Yes, so am I. I am also from 50 years ago, so. As for Philly, here's the thing. I wanted to do this as part of the publicity, but I came up with the idea too late. Everyone agrees it would have been a great idea.
Speaker 4:
[25:22] We didn't say what's going on in case you don't know. Rocky the movie with Sylvester Stallone.
Speaker 6:
[25:28] Yes.
Speaker 4:
[25:28] And he's from Philadelphia.
Speaker 6:
[25:30] Correct. And his wife's name is Adrian.
Speaker 4:
[25:31] And his wife's name is Adrian. And we all know that because there's a big scene where they say Adrian!
Speaker 6:
[25:37] But I wanted, from the marketing, I wanted them to either CG render or have the puppeteers do it, to show Rocky from Project Hail Mary running up the steps of the art museum in Philadelphia. Yeah, the art museum in Philadelphia. That would have been great!
Speaker 5:
[25:50] Put his appendages up, you know? Why not?
Speaker 6:
[25:53] Because I came up with it, it would have taken too long and cost too much at the point that I came up with it.
Speaker 4:
[25:58] And it would have been stupid, okay?
Speaker 6:
[26:03] What are you talking about?
Speaker 5:
[26:04] That's the first thing people do when they go to Philly, is run up those damn stairs.
Speaker 4:
[26:08] How are you getting Rocky to Philly?
Speaker 6:
[26:10] How you get what?
Speaker 5:
[26:11] Through astrophage propulsion!
Speaker 4:
[26:14] Stupid!
Speaker 8:
[26:14] Come on, man!
Speaker 4:
[26:16] Duh!
Speaker 6:
[26:18] They did little things where they, you know, CGI put Rocky on the red carpet for the London premiere, and he's signing autographs and stuff.
Speaker 1:
[26:25] Oh, okay.
Speaker 4:
[26:26] That's cool. You got it. So, one thing that I didn't quite follow precisely, how, by what means and mechanism, was the lead character, of course, played by?
Speaker 6:
[26:39] Ken.
Speaker 1:
[26:39] Ken?
Speaker 5:
[26:42] You know what? I can't think of his name now. You guys keep calling him Ken!
Speaker 4:
[26:45] By Ryan Gosling.
Speaker 1:
[26:47] Thank you.
Speaker 4:
[26:47] So, he sets up his computer to, there's initially a shared vocabulary. They start with science and symbols and things. And then, that rapidly becomes full-on exchange of translated knowledge. So, I didn't quite follow how that got so effective so quickly.
Speaker 6:
[27:07] Well, it's just, he had his computer, like, be able to analyze the waveforms. And so, Rocky would say a word.
Speaker 4:
[27:15] The acoustic waveforms, yeah.
Speaker 6:
[27:16] The acoustic waveforms that Rocky's making. And it would say a word, and then he'd put that in his program and say this, and this is the word, like, hello. And then when the computer heard something close enough to that, it would then have a synthesizer voice say hello to be Rocky's voice. So, and Rocky is not speaking, you know, poetic, very high-end. He's talking, like, real simple words for dumb human, you know. He's speaking sort of a pigeon, you know, Iridian-English hybrid thing to try to keep the words simple and keep the sentence structure simple so that they can each talk to each other.
Speaker 4:
[27:55] Oh, cool. But they had to be some starter exchange of vocabulary.
Speaker 6:
[28:01] And they started with, I think, the number one. Yeah, this, this, this, this is my number one. One.
Speaker 5:
[28:06] One.
Speaker 6:
[28:06] One, so what do you say for one? Okay, cool, two, two, it's, you know.
Speaker 5:
[28:11] Okay, that's cool.
Speaker 4:
[28:12] That works. So I-
Speaker 6:
[28:14] Oh, and by the way, since you're talking about Rocky and Adrian, I'm surprised, did you notice that the name of the ship is the Hail Mary, and it's full of?
Speaker 5:
[28:21] It better be Grace, but-
Speaker 6:
[28:22] Grace. Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[28:23] Wow.
Speaker 6:
[28:24] Main character's name is Dr. Rylan Grace. The Hail Mary is full of Grace. I could not resist it.
Speaker 4:
[28:30] I am weak.
Speaker 6:
[28:31] I'm weak, Neil.
Speaker 4:
[28:33] But is the Lord with thee?
Speaker 6:
[28:36] Well, the writer would be the Lord, right, in this case.
Speaker 10:
[28:39] Okay.
Speaker 6:
[28:41] I guess so.
Speaker 4:
[28:42] I guess so. But are you blessed, are you?
Speaker 5:
[28:48] I don't want to know anything about the fruit of your womb. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 4:
[28:52] You blessed it out among women.
Speaker 5:
[28:55] Let me ask you this, though, because you seem to have this theme of alone in space. Oh, really? What is it that fascinates you about alone in the cosmos?
Speaker 6:
[29:09] Well, to be fair, Ryland is not alone, right? He's got his brother from A Rocky Mother with him, right? But failing that, it's just a very convenient method of story telling. You have your hero is completely isolated when they're out in space. It's like, even if all of humanity wanted to help him, which was the case of the Martians, there's very little they can do.
Speaker 4:
[29:33] So the lead character in this story is he's kind of a reluctant hero.
Speaker 6:
[29:40] To say the least.
Speaker 4:
[29:40] He's kind of a selfish coward. He doesn't want to save the world. He doesn't want, and yet he's cast into this spot kind of against his will. Reminding me of the great Shakespearean line. Yes? Some people are born great. Some people achieve greatness. Other people have greatness thrust upon them.
Speaker 6:
[30:06] He had it thrust into him. It was not a good experience. He had greatness just absolutely injected into him. Injected into him.
Speaker 4:
[30:13] He was a reluctant participant in this mission.
Speaker 6:
[30:15] Right.
Speaker 4:
[30:16] But everyone knew they needed him. So they just drugged him and put him on.
Speaker 6:
[30:19] Yeah. That's a pretty big spoiler, by the way, for the movie. So you might want to make an extra warning.
Speaker 4:
[30:25] OK.
Speaker 6:
[30:26] And the book also. But yes, he was there against his will. And I wanted to make a likable protagonist. And it's I think we can all feel like we've all felt at times that we are unqualified, unwilling, and scared. I don't know, maybe not you. You just radiate confidence, but for the rest of us, more.
Speaker 4:
[30:47] But it's not interesting to a viewer. You want the person to overcome these weaknesses.
Speaker 6:
[30:52] Which he does.
Speaker 4:
[30:52] And then triumph.
Speaker 6:
[30:53] Yeah. Which he does.
Speaker 4:
[30:55] Yeah. OK.
Speaker 5:
[30:56] All right. I mean, that always redeems a character, too. He can start off scared, cowardly, but then overcomes that to do heroic feats.
Speaker 6:
[31:06] Right.
Speaker 5:
[31:07] You know, especially if there are selfless heroic feats. Right.
Speaker 6:
[31:10] I mean, the first time he was willing to really risk his neck was because of the friendship he had made with Rocky.
Speaker 5:
[31:15] Well, OK. So, that's cool, man. That's cool. So, he didn't want to save humanity, but he put his ass on the line for some Rocky-ass alien day.
Speaker 11:
[31:23] Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4:
[31:25] Yeah. Now I'm pissed off.
Speaker 5:
[31:28] Now I'm angry.
Speaker 6:
[31:29] Within the context, saving humanity was a guaranteed death sentence. It was a suicide mission.
Speaker 5:
[31:34] Gotcha.
Speaker 6:
[31:34] Saving Rocky was high risk of death. It was a little different.
Speaker 5:
[31:39] Okay.
Speaker 4:
[31:40] That's an interesting distinction.
Speaker 5:
[31:42] I like the distinction.
Speaker 8:
[31:43] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[31:43] High risk of death or certain death.
Speaker 5:
[31:46] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[31:46] I'm taking the high risk.
Speaker 8:
[31:47] Yeah.
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 4:
[33:16] So I want to just compliment you on conceiving of aliens that are not just actors in a suit. So therefore, you have the freedom for them to not be humanoid, which is one of the weakest points of all Hollywood aliens.
Speaker 6:
[33:33] Well, to be fair, Hollywood aliens are usually not in $200 million movies, right? And so you've got to be realistic.
Speaker 4:
[33:40] Is that what the movie cost?
Speaker 6:
[33:41] Yeah.
Speaker 4:
[33:42] $200 million?
Speaker 6:
[33:43] Actually, closer to $250 million, but we got tax rebates from the UK for shooting there. Yeah. We better make a lot of money on this.
Speaker 4:
[33:50] That's why he's got an expensive Panama hat.
Speaker 6:
[33:52] That's why we've got this expensive Panama hat. So half of that budget went to this hat.
Speaker 8:
[33:59] All right.
Speaker 6:
[34:00] But yeah, most of the time, you know, if you're going to write a science fiction story and you want to tell it in a reasonable budget, like an episode of Star Trek or something like that.
Speaker 4:
[34:10] You get the rubber costume when you put it on.
Speaker 6:
[34:12] Yeah, you get the forehead prosthetics. You have the alien be in the same environment. You're good. But yeah, with the luxury of being able to do whatever you want, we can have our alien require, you know, xenonite barriers, you know, and stuff like that, and be completely non-humanoid.
Speaker 4:
[34:27] Tell me about the barriers because your alien requires a different environment.
Speaker 6:
[34:32] 29 atmospheres of ammonia.
Speaker 4:
[34:34] 29 atmospheres.
Speaker 5:
[34:35] A lot of pressure and ammonia.
Speaker 6:
[34:36] And a lot of heat.
Speaker 5:
[34:37] Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4:
[34:38] Hot, high pressure, and poisonous gases.
Speaker 5:
[34:43] Sounds a lot like me and Melania. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4:
[34:47] So, how do you...
Speaker 6:
[34:48] After a lot of tacos.
Speaker 4:
[34:52] How, the boundary between the regular spaceship and the alien in the spaceship, what was that boundary? It was transparent.
Speaker 6:
[35:01] It was made of xenonite, which is a material that is somehow, one of the main components of it is xenon, a noble gas that doesn't normally react with things. What I wanted...
Speaker 5:
[35:12] It makes super bright headlights.
Speaker 6:
[35:14] Yes. So, Ryland has no idea how that stuff works or how it's made.
Speaker 4:
[35:19] Oh, so it's a rocky alloy.
Speaker 6:
[35:21] Yeah, it's iridium technology. And so, what I wanted was... I didn't want either species to be completely scientifically more advanced than the other. From the iridium's point of view, we're kind of the advanced aliens because we have computers, we have better technology across the board, but iridium's have much better materials technology.
Speaker 4:
[35:41] So, they're material scientists, basically.
Speaker 6:
[35:42] Yeah, their material science is far better than ours. But they didn't understand relativity. Maybe the iridians didn't, or they didn't understand. We've only known it for about 120 years, so don't get so high and mighty.
Speaker 4:
[35:59] So, why was it important that they didn't know relativity?
Speaker 6:
[36:01] We figured out flight before we figured out relativity.
Speaker 4:
[36:04] Why was it important that they did not know relativity as a storyteller?
Speaker 6:
[36:08] Because it gave me an excuse to, if you calculate, if you assume Newtonian physics, which they did, they calculated how much fuel they would need to get from their home star, Fortier-O'Donny, to Talsetti, and for a trip back. It was supposed to be a round trip thing. And you calculate that fuel, you get a certain number. The real amount of fuel you need to use is considerably less due to the time dilation and the relativistic effects you have when you're going there. So, he ended up with a whole bunch of excess fuel, which enables him...
Speaker 4:
[36:38] I didn't catch that. There it is. And so, that's the evidence they didn't know relativity, otherwise, they would have done the proper calculation. Right. Right.
Speaker 6:
[36:47] And, Rocky, it's in the book, but not in the movie, Rocky says they were very confused. It's like, okay, the planet was, the other star was closer than it should be, so we slowed down, but then it got further away. What?
Speaker 4:
[36:59] Oh, so they were experiencing relativity, not knowing what the hell's going on.
Speaker 6:
[37:02] What is going on? Wow.
Speaker 4:
[37:04] So, do you regret that that wasn't in the movie?
Speaker 6:
[37:06] No, you had to cut things out.
Speaker 4:
[37:08] Yeah, so what's, okay, what, because you don't have final edit control, I presume, because you're just the author.
Speaker 6:
[37:14] Well, I'm also a producer, so I had to say.
Speaker 4:
[37:16] What were you, executive producer?
Speaker 6:
[37:18] No, I was a real producer.
Speaker 7:
[37:19] Oh!
Speaker 4:
[37:22] So, is there a scene you felt should have been in the movie?
Speaker 6:
[37:27] Yeah, my only regret, and Drew and I both fought for this. Drew made, wrote the adaptation for it, Drew Goddard.
Speaker 4:
[37:32] He credited him for that, huh? Drew, the full name?
Speaker 6:
[37:34] Drew Goddard. Drew Goddard wrote the adaptation, did a fantastic job, and he and I both wanted this one scene, and we just didn't have time for it, because the runtime was going so long. But there's a scene in the book where they nuke Antarctica. They basically put-
Speaker 4:
[37:47] Back on Earth, yeah.
Speaker 6:
[37:48] On Earth, they set off a bunch of nuclear explosions in Antarctica to make an entire ice shell fall into the ocean so that it will melt and release all the methane, which is greenhouse gases, so that Earth will retain more of the heat that it is getting from the sun.
Speaker 4:
[38:03] Because they are, because the astrophage is eating the sun.
Speaker 6:
[38:06] Dimming the sun. We're not dimming the sun.
Speaker 4:
[38:08] So, wow.
Speaker 6:
[38:10] So they're like, we need some global warming.
Speaker 4:
[38:12] Wow.
Speaker 5:
[38:14] And that's why-
Speaker 6:
[38:17] Are you doing Trump? Is that it?
Speaker 5:
[38:20] And that's why-
Speaker 6:
[38:22] There's something between Trump and Fat Albert. And some are like, hey, hey, hey, man.
Speaker 5:
[38:27] I think there's something wrong with your ears.
Speaker 6:
[38:29] You're doing a pretty gravelly Trump, my friend.
Speaker 5:
[38:31] No, if you've listened to him now, that's how he talks. So, I'm not doing rally Trump, I'm doing the Trump that talks in front of the cameras and wants you to know that quite frankly.
Speaker 4:
[38:45] So, that's something that was not in the film where we don't see Earth descending into-
Speaker 6:
[38:53] Right, and that's also not in the book. We see in the beginnings of it in the book, there's issues, they're starting to have problems, and a lot of their problems are caused by the amelioration techniques they're proactively doing. So, they're gonna, things are gonna get worse, but then we're gonna need that heat.
Speaker 5:
[39:09] So, we have a mouse problem, well, let's get a bunch of hawks, and now we have a hawk problem, okay. Exactly. That's the deal.
Speaker 4:
[39:17] All right, and it was a stretch for me, if I may.
Speaker 6:
[39:22] You and I are enemies now.
Speaker 4:
[39:24] No.
Speaker 7:
[39:24] Go ahead.
Speaker 4:
[39:26] It was a stretch for me as an academic to completely embrace the idea that the entire world of biochemists is insufficient to handle this mission, and they need the one guy who has the expertise that no one else has, and he's a middle school chemistry teacher.
Speaker 6:
[39:53] Right. So, to be fair, he was a speculative xenobiologist, he has a PhD, astrobiologist, so he had done that, and then he'd left that field. He'd written papers and stuff.
Speaker 4:
[40:05] But he wrote papers, so the papers are out there, and other people are still active, and he's no longer active, so why does he still become the guy?
Speaker 6:
[40:12] Because he's been part of the mission and the mission planning the whole time, so he understands all the other aspects of the mission as well. He knows all about the Hail Mary itself, and they don't have time to train someone else up on all the other stuff, and he's as well trained as any of the other biologists in the field that they need him to be.
Speaker 4:
[40:33] Okay.
Speaker 6:
[40:34] Does that work for you?
Speaker 4:
[40:35] He got out of that one.
Speaker 6:
[40:36] I got wriggled out of that one.
Speaker 4:
[40:37] So again, congratulations on some of your books getting turned into movies.
Speaker 6:
[40:43] Two out of three. Two out of three.
Speaker 4:
[40:45] Some of your books getting turned into movies, and it's a delight anytime you come visit us here, and for whatever might be your next book still, we want to stay on your tour. Your tour list.
Speaker 6:
[40:57] Always.
Speaker 4:
[40:58] All right. All right.
Speaker 6:
[41:00] Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4:
[41:01] And any last bits of wisdom or advice for us all? How about aspiring writers? What might you say?
Speaker 6:
[41:06] Aspiring writers? I've got three bits of advice for aspiring writers. One, you have to actually write. Ideating and imagining and world building is not writing. You need to type. Number two is resist the urge to...
Speaker 4:
[41:16] To execute the idea.
Speaker 6:
[41:17] Yeah. Number two is resist the urge to tell your friends and family your story. It satisfies your need for an audience and saps your will to write.
Speaker 7:
[41:25] Oh, very nice.
Speaker 6:
[41:26] So you can give them a chapter at a time as you write it to satisfy that need for it. Don't tell them. And then the third one is there's never been a better time in human history to self-publish. There's no old boy network between you and the readers anymore. You can, for absolutely zero financial risk, you can put your book out there and millions of people have access to it.
Speaker 4:
[41:46] Published with Penguin Random House.
Speaker 6:
[41:48] I was going to say, initially published on Kindle Direct Publishing.
Speaker 2:
[41:51] Oh!
Speaker 5:
[41:54] But for all of you who aren't this talented, don't quit your job. I didn't quit my job until I had a traditional publishing deal with Penguin. All right.
Speaker 4:
[42:05] We're done here. That was Project Hail Mary.
Speaker 5:
[42:08] Nice.
Speaker 4:
[42:09] Full of grace. Yeah. The Lord was with me.
Speaker 6:
[42:13] Well, Phil Lord.
Speaker 4:
[42:16] Chuck, always good to have you, man.
Speaker 5:
[42:17] Always a pleasure.
Speaker 4:
[42:18] And Andy, thanks for being high up on my compliment list.
Speaker 6:
[42:22] Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4:
[42:23] And let me give you the highest compliment I could ever give. Don't stop moving the needle in your storytelling for Hollywood because it was looking like same shit different day for so many years. And with your stories out there, it gives us something fresh to embrace and imbibe.
Speaker 6:
[42:45] Thanks so much. It means a lot to me.
Speaker 4:
[42:46] In the genre. Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. Do keep looking up. So, and we got it up here.
Speaker 8:
[43:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 6:
[43:12] They say in that song, they're going to Venus, and then they also say they have so many light years to go.
Speaker 1:
[43:17] Oh, God.
Speaker 6:
[43:17] This is me.
Speaker 1:
[43:17] What a shame.
Speaker 4:
[43:18] Oh, yeah, don't get me started.
Speaker 6:
[43:19] Yeah, God damn it.
Speaker 5:
[43:20] That's awful.
Speaker 4:
[43:21] But when you were starting, was the, I did that Kessel run in 12 parsecs, that's the one.
Speaker 6:
[43:25] No, no, the Kessel, hey, hey.
Speaker 4:
[43:27] No, no, don't come after the fact and explain that.
Speaker 6:
[43:29] No, no, no.
Speaker 4:
[43:30] At the time, they didn't, they didn't know what to do.
Speaker 6:
[43:32] There are two black holes orbiting each other.
Speaker 4:
[43:35] Don't make me slap you.
Speaker 6:
[43:36] And so if you go between the black holes.
Speaker 4:
[43:38] Don't make me slap you.
Speaker 6:
[43:39] Then you manage to do it in an under 12 parsecs. Everyone else goes around the black holes.
Speaker 5:
[43:44] Okay. So I've heard that explanation before, too.
Speaker 4:
[43:48] This is bailing out there.
Speaker 6:
[43:49] Yeah, that's what we're doing.
Speaker 5:
[43:51] Nobody has given me a compliment at all. I don't know what they've given me.
Speaker 6:
[43:55] I don't know, man.
Speaker 5:
[43:57] As you know.
Speaker 6:
[43:59] Way to escape Philly?
Speaker 5:
[44:03] Oh, that was, man, that hurt. That one hurt.
Speaker 8:
[44:10] There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still, not a chance.
Speaker 1:
[44:15] You're a lifelong learner who's come this far.
Speaker 8:
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Speaker 10:
[44:33] Did you say $300?
Speaker 8:
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Speaker 8:
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