transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Okay, parents, quick check-in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule, except your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time. School emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head. Usually moms. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. It's a smart touchscreen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain. Schedules, chores, meals, grocery lists, and puts it in one place where the whole family can actually see it and participate. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it, and you can color code each family member. So there's a lot less, wait, I didn't know, in your house. Plus, with the free Skylight Companion app, you can add or update events, lists, and more on the go. And I appreciate this. If after 120 days, you're not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Right now, you can get $30 off a 15-inch Skylight calendar at myskylight.com/becky. That's myskylight.com/becky. Okay, your kid is screaming in the middle of the grocery store. Nope, your kid is rolling around in the middle of a restaurant. Actually, no, sorry. Your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes after you said, please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes. Whatever it is, no matter where you are, there is always one person who walks by a situation like this and gives you the look. You know the look because the look has a voice. Even if you don't hear anything and the voice says, you're going to let them get away with that. And the voice then says to you, if I don't handle this firmly and harshly, I'm going to look permissive. I'm going to look like I let my kid walk all over me. I'm going to look like I am reinforcing bad behavior. I'm permissive. I'm a pushover. Now, I'm just going to put it on the table. I've had that thought myself many times. So if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain. I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing. Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness? Hmm. Today, we're going to try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything, Myleik Teele, is back with me, and we're going to start myth busting some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought, that if I don't punish I'm permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth. It's kind of non-fiction. Maybe it's not true. Or maybe that thought needs a little updating. That's what we're going to talk about today. I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside. I'm so glad you're here. This is a series we're calling, Is It True? In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea that sounds obvious. You just kind of move past it. Something we've said or believed or just held as the truth, and we're just going to get curious about it. We're going to also ask, is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up? So Myleik, when you hear, if you don't punish your permissive, what does that stir up in you?

Speaker 2:
[03:42] I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater reaction.

Speaker 1:
[04:00] Every action has an equal opposite reaction.

Speaker 2:
[04:03] So it's like, if you do this, oh, you broke that, you hit that, let me take it up a notch.

Speaker 1:
[04:10] And there's a publicness of this, but I think this thought plays out in private too.

Speaker 2:
[04:14] Oh, it does.

Speaker 1:
[04:15] I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs, and maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations.

Speaker 2:
[04:21] Right.

Speaker 1:
[04:23] I can't let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it.

Speaker 2:
[04:30] Right.

Speaker 1:
[04:31] It feels like those are almost the same.

Speaker 2:
[04:33] Right. How will they get better if you don't punish it? Then how will they learn?

Speaker 1:
[04:39] Then they think, I think it's okay.

Speaker 2:
[04:43] It's okay.

Speaker 1:
[04:44] Okay. So your kid does something in front of you, right? Either you say, oh, stop jumping on the couch and they keep jumping on the couch, or they just say something really rude to you or they don't listen, right? And if you don't punish, is it that you feel permissive or like, what's the language that really you think parents are like struggling with about what this all means about them?

Speaker 2:
[05:06] I know in that moment, I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak. You think you can get over on me. You think that you're in charge. You think you're the boss. You do whatever you want to do around here. And so, if I don't let you know who's in charge at all times, yeah, you know, I'm not doing my job.

Speaker 1:
[05:33] Look, first of all, I think you're right. So thank you for naming that. And this picture of parents being like, yep, that is, yep, that's it. Because it's really like deep. Like, if you think about that, like what, so it's, because this can happen. Like, our kid can be two. They can be six. They can be 10, but they can be two.

Speaker 2:
[05:52] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:53] And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Like, I don't maybe say that, but that, oh, you think.

Speaker 2:
[05:58] In my mind, yeah.

Speaker 1:
[05:59] Yeah, like, you're saying I'm weak.

Speaker 2:
[06:00] Yeah, you can do whatever you want around here. You just get up, you, oh, you're not wearing that. You're throwing that away. You're not eating that?

Speaker 1:
[06:09] Wait, can I ask you a question? I never thought about this.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[06:12] Do you think when you're sleeping and it's 2 a.m. with your four month old and they're screaming for you, right?

Speaker 2:
[06:19] Right.

Speaker 1:
[06:19] Do you think parents then are like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Or no, not then?

Speaker 2:
[06:23] No.

Speaker 1:
[06:24] Well, let's walk through that. I've never thought about that.

Speaker 2:
[06:26] Like, when does it change?

Speaker 1:
[06:28] So why not at four months? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[06:29] But I think at that age, we really do believe that they are helpless. But I think that the more that they are able to do, and the more we start shifting, we're changing color cups. Now, we're changing meals. We're doing all of these things that they want us to do. And then when we ask them to do something and they don't do it, it's like, I've been doing this all day. Yeah. Putting your shoes on, changing your pants. And now, I ask you to do one simple thing and you can't do it. So who's in charge here, me or you?

Speaker 1:
[07:03] So I just think that that's interesting to track. Like, it's true when my baby cried in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2:
[07:09] Right, I didn't.

Speaker 1:
[07:10] Or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it. I'm definitely not like, oh, you think you're the boss of me.

Speaker 2:
[07:15] Right.

Speaker 1:
[07:16] Like, oh, you think we're just going home because of, you know, like, I had a plan to go out. We don't really think that with our nine month old.

Speaker 2:
[07:21] We don't. But at some point, it does start to happen.

Speaker 1:
[07:24] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[07:25] And it's just is not kind of nonstop.

Speaker 1:
[07:28] Yeah, it is. But you know, it's interesting. It's nonstop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing.

Speaker 2:
[07:34] Right.

Speaker 1:
[07:35] And maybe you're seeing at a certain age. I never thought about this way. One of the sets of glasses I don't even think we realized are on all the time is just power.

Speaker 2:
[07:43] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[07:44] Who has power?

Speaker 2:
[07:45] Right. I was going to ask you that because I'm like, I'm noticing the glasses and I'm like, at some point they come on and they never come off. Right. Yeah. I'm always seeing it that way.

Speaker 1:
[07:58] Is it power dynamics? Are you evaluating your own strength and worth through your toddler's behavior?

Speaker 2:
[08:06] Whether or not they're doing what I say sometimes.

Speaker 1:
[08:09] Yup. Yes. Yes, it is true. I am. Is that not a good equation? Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[08:14] Yeah. I am doing that. Even if I don't want to be doing it, I'm doing it. Yeah. Why?

Speaker 1:
[08:22] A lot of us, if we think back on our earliest years, a lot of dynamics were around power, power, fear.

Speaker 2:
[08:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:29] Right. I kind of know my parents are more powerful. There's a lot of fear, so I'm going to do this thing short term until I'm out of their house and they lord things over us. And if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this. They're all like power equations.

Speaker 2:
[08:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[08:43] And so I do think that lives deep in our bones. Way before we became a parent, it was just, there's probably the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do, I think, with power and fear.

Speaker 2:
[08:57] Yeah, right. And outside of the home, too. I think about school, wherever you go, school, camp, you know, it was always that sort of deal.

Speaker 1:
[09:06] And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is my toddler, start there, won't put on their shoes. And even if it's my seven-year-old, because I think some people say, but my seven-year-old should know better, right? I mean, we all should know better with things. But let's say there's a situation and I think the parent starts thinking, I can't put up with this. Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house. I have to punish them. I have another question for you. I don't know the right answer to this question either. What is punishment? Like, maybe what's an example of it? And what do we, even if it doesn't make sense, what do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness?

Speaker 2:
[09:45] You know, it's, I want you to know that I didn't like what you did.

Speaker 1:
[09:48] Uh-huh.

Speaker 2:
[09:49] I don't want it to happen again. And because you did that, I need to do something to you, take something from you. Something needs to happen to you so that you know not to do that again and that I don't like it.

Speaker 1:
[10:03] Okay, so actually I want to break that down. Step one, I need you to know that I don't approve of this behavior.

Speaker 2:
[10:10] Step one.

Speaker 1:
[10:10] Okay, so punishment is a way of telling your kid that. Okay. We're going to think if there's alternatives for each of these needs, but I get as a parent, if my kid is doing something that I don't think is okay, I actually understand, I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay, totally reasonable. Whether it has to come out in punishment, we can think about, but punishment says that, not okay.

Speaker 2:
[10:30] Right.

Speaker 1:
[10:31] Number two, punishment kind of says, I don't want you to do this again. Maybe number three brings it together, that maybe the best way, tell you this is true, the best way of telling you I don't approve, and trying to have something not happen again, is to make you feel bad, or to make you feel small, or to deliver some type of emotional, physical pain.

Speaker 2:
[10:58] Is that? That was my third of, something has to happen to you.

Speaker 1:
[11:02] Something has to happen to you.

Speaker 2:
[11:04] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[11:05] Do you think there is that equal opposite thing where I'm upset about this? So you have to be?

Speaker 2:
[11:12] You need to feel some of this in some way.

Speaker 1:
[11:15] I can't be the one watching you behave in this way, and my body feels uncomfortable?

Speaker 2:
[11:20] Right.

Speaker 1:
[11:21] Is there an indignance there? Your body has to feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:
[11:23] This is how I grew up. My mom's like, Oh, you embarrass me. This was before we go into a store.

Speaker 1:
[11:29] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] You embarrass me and I'm going to embarrass you. And that sort of whatever I feel, you feel. Did she? Yes. Yes, she did. But or I knew, you know, it's like I was like, I knew that if I made her uncomfortable, if I embarrassed her, she was going to ensure that I was also embarrassed.

Speaker 1:
[11:56] Interesting.

Speaker 2:
[11:57] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[11:57] So this is old beyond the punishment part, even though it's part of the punishment is, if I feel bad as a parent from a situation, you need to feel that way.

Speaker 2:
[12:06] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[12:07] And I just want to say something because my mind's going this direction. So I don't know if anyone listening is. I don't know why I picture someone thinking, maybe I'm thinking. Oh, the days when children listen to parents in stores. Like a little nostalgia, like, oh, the days where I could in theory say to my kid, if you do this, here's what's going to happen. And they were like a little bit nervous enough to modify their behavior. Because I do think there's a little bit of wistfulness for the impact, maybe not the tactics, but the impact.

Speaker 2:
[12:41] For sure.

Speaker 1:
[12:42] Right?

Speaker 2:
[12:42] Yeah. It worked sometimes.

Speaker 1:
[12:44] It worked sometimes.

Speaker 2:
[12:46] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[12:46] And I know you and I have talked about other consequences, long-term, short-term.

Speaker 2:
[12:51] When I think about being a black parent, and I think about if there's no punishment.

Speaker 1:
[12:58] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[12:59] If there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know that there are consequences in the world? Okay. You are five today, and I call your name, and you don't turn around, or you roll your eyes, or you hiss, and you're out in the real world, and you get pulled over. And you do any one of those things, there is a great chance that you will be punished harshly, or you may not be alive.

Speaker 1:
[13:37] And the layer, I think, that you're not saying, but is implied, and that is different for you than a white child.

Speaker 2:
[13:42] Completely.

Speaker 1:
[13:42] Yes, that is completely real.

Speaker 2:
[13:44] And so when I'm with my kids, that is something that people say, is that that is something white kids can do. That is something white kids can do when black kids can't do that. Like almost like we don't have the time. You know what I mean? It's like, I have to speed this up because the world is not safe. And you, Becky, you can take seven years practicing, but I don't feel like I have that much time. And so I have to show my kid at least give them an idea of what the consequences might feel like so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world that could harm them.

Speaker 1:
[14:30] And what goes on in your body as you say all those words? I'm sure you're thinking about your kids.

Speaker 2:
[14:37] You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did. And I can know that it was in some ways when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe. I think they really believe that that's what they were doing. And I feel like there are a lot of black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way.

Speaker 1:
[15:04] I like if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street, pulled over, whatever it is, they better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted.

Speaker 2:
[15:19] Correct, or they're in a group, you know, you're in a group of white kids. You can do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids and you do the exact same thing, there is a chance that you will be punished in a way that those other kids won't.

Speaker 1:
[15:39] And one of the things I think you and I think agree on, what if the best chance of my kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority isn't punished? What if that only needs them to lock away their anger and rage and that makes it more likely it comes out when they're teens and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small? Like, do you feel like that, beyond feeling better to you, are you like, no, no, no, part of it is I actually think that is?

Speaker 2:
[16:11] No, a thousand percent. I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what sends him on a tear and so he may not even do it. And so I am like, oh my goodness, he is starting to learn the ways to stay safe. And even one of his teachers said, no one can tell you how they're feeling better than he can.

Speaker 1:
[16:42] Wow.

Speaker 2:
[16:43] And to me, I think that is what will keep him safe. But I think the hardest part, and I talk to you about this all the time, is that if I want my child who will become an adult to understand sort of like authority, and to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me. And I think that's the hardest part of like, they have to be able to yell and like you said, it is a practice that they're not going to get the first time. So sometimes, you know, it's like this is a long game. This is a long game and I think that, okay, I'm going to stay calm. They're going to have a moment and I'm going to have to do that many times until they essentially co-regulate. But I think that's the part that's the hardest is that it's hard to believe that this could, quote unquote, work.

Speaker 1:
[17:52] Well, it really sounds, it does sound like you're coaching. You're trying to coach him. You're trying to coach him.

Speaker 2:
[18:00] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[18:00] What would you need? What will eventually help you change your behavior? What's really going on? And if I want to be your coach in that, you kind of have to be on your team.

Speaker 2:
[18:13] Right.

Speaker 1:
[18:13] And we have to have a strong enough relationship that you're willing to be influenced by me even as you get older.

Speaker 2:
[18:19] Right.

Speaker 1:
[18:19] Right.

Speaker 2:
[18:20] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[18:21] I mean, I think about that a lot. Now, I have a 14-year-old and I think, you still want to have influence on your kid as they get older, almost especially. You're going to have it in smaller doses, but the stakes get higher.

Speaker 2:
[18:34] Right.

Speaker 1:
[18:35] Right. And connection is always the portal. The influence, like staying connected to someone. If you're not connected to someone, when you're 14, when your kid is 14, they have this realization, I'm bigger than you. I really don't care about your timeouts. Like those things, it doesn't make sense. When I'm out and I don't come home, if all you have is words and threats, and then I just get to go to school again tomorrow, like there's nothing. They kind of can call us our bluff.

Speaker 2:
[19:06] But connection, I think that is the place that I think it's tough because I feel like I was taught that if my kid does something bad, I go away from them.

Speaker 1:
[19:17] If my kid does something bad, we disconnect. I pull away my love as a punishment.

Speaker 2:
[19:23] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[19:24] Yes, that is a punishment.

Speaker 2:
[19:25] That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm no longer dealing with you. And I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like.

Speaker 1:
[19:38] Yes. That we can still stay connected to the good kid underneath. This kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay.

Speaker 2:
[19:47] Right.

Speaker 1:
[19:47] I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior, as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling.

Speaker 2:
[19:57] Right.

Speaker 1:
[19:58] And then I can act like a coach to have this behavior change. I have to figure out, well, what's really going on? And then, yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear.

Speaker 2:
[20:11] Right. And giving it time.

Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
[22:40] There are. I told you when I met you, I never wanted to like, I certainly never wanted to hit my kids. And I just never felt like punishing worked, because I'd been punished, and I'm just like, I don't know that this works, but I feel like I can let my kids know, this is not okay. And I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel, even if I am embarrassed, you know? It's like, I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard, and I did not feel the need to like send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him. So, I mean, what have I done? What have I done? You know, I might say, I'm trying to think of a specific example.

Speaker 1:
[23:34] But you just said it. And actually, I think there's a version that's simple that you said, but you didn't even realize. You can tell your kid, that's not okay.

Speaker 2:
[23:43] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[23:43] That's not okay with me.

Speaker 2:
[23:45] Right.

Speaker 1:
[23:45] I mean, I could go so far, permission to any parent and say, I do not approve of this behavior. Like, you can make it crystal clear with your life that you're not going to make it a real sandwich. Right.

Speaker 2:
[23:54] But you know, but let's just be honest, sometimes that does not feel like enough.

Speaker 1:
[23:58] Well, I thought you were going to say something else. It doesn't feel as good. There's something.

Speaker 2:
[24:01] No, it doesn't.

Speaker 1:
[24:02] Can we just let ourselves think, there is something so cathartic about no dessert for a week, and you say it, and for the split second, it feels good.

Speaker 2:
[24:15] It does.

Speaker 1:
[24:16] It really does. You're like, I was so frustrated, and I get to, and I think this is what it is. I get to vomit all of my frustration onto my child. That's what it is. It's vomiting.

Speaker 2:
[24:28] Right. This is what happened to me, or this is what would happen to me. If I gave an order of what I wanted, and then she brought it back, and I said, oh, I don't want that anymore. What? My kids do that all the time. I didn't say, I don't want that. Mom, you know I don't want that. Why would you order that? You said that.

Speaker 1:
[24:55] This is what happens when you have children. It is so crazy, the gas lighting that happens. I just want to validate.

Speaker 2:
[25:01] Okay, please.

Speaker 1:
[25:02] I would like pasta and chicken, and you're like, sure, reasonable, and you literally go to your child, here is pasta and chicken, and they go, I don't like pasta and chicken. There are times that I've heard myself say things, like it's like I need my kid to know that like I'm not crazy.

Speaker 2:
[25:21] There's that.

Speaker 1:
[25:22] Like, I need to be harsh to prove to my five-year-old that he did say pasta and chicken, because if he gets so upset, you said it, and if you don't tell me you said it right now, I am going to fill in the blank with something that I have at most a 15% chance of following through on. Let's be clear. There are so many of us, I think especially women, who were taught to look elsewhere to learn our internal reality. Am I allowed to feel upset about this? Is this a big deal? If you're thinking, oh my God, that's so pathetic. That's right. I, on some level, do have this wish my kid will say, you're right, mom, I did say that. That's when I can have more compassion rather than judgment for myself, because probably even before I became a mom, I was encouraged to always look outside for validation. And so, sure, that pattern comes up now and I can start to shift it now. But I hate the idea of apparently blaming themselves for that. Like, that's probably historical, right? This part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation, they're going to think about, wait, the last time I did this, I got punished. Like, that's where always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, wait a second, the last time I hit my sister, I didn't get dessert. So I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister. Like, I still, I feel like we're focusing, punishment is on the after behavior.

Speaker 2:
[26:56] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[26:56] And it's hard for me to really make sense of. And then I think my kid before the behavior is going to access the thing that happened last time after the behavior. Like, but I think that's, we kind of think it works like that.

Speaker 2:
[27:08] That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that, and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess, I guess that doesn't make sense.

Speaker 1:
[27:15] Right. Right. I don't even think it works like that that well for adults. Right. Or it's sophisticated to think my young kid is going to be able to think about all that and to give them up.

Speaker 2:
[27:22] Put all of those pieces together. Right. Hold on. The last time I did this, let me, I'm going to take a deep breath.

Speaker 1:
[27:29] Henceforth.

Speaker 2:
[27:29] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:30] Henceforth, I shall not do.

Speaker 2:
[27:31] Right.

Speaker 1:
[27:31] Okay. So let's just paint an alternative. And I think what you've said is really poignant. I haven't thought about it. But it's the alternative we're going to paint isn't no big deal. Who cares about soccer? Let's go for ice cream. But any alternative to punishment, I feel like that.

Speaker 2:
[27:46] Right.

Speaker 1:
[27:46] But let's, okay. So you go first. You sign him up for soccer.

Speaker 2:
[27:50] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[27:51] You go to the first day of practice. And I know you're signing. I'm not doing it.

Speaker 2:
[27:55] Yeah. You know, I mean, what am I doing? Because I've been in this situation. It's like I sign up for dance and we get to dance and, and she's not going inside and we're not leaving. That's kind of, I already committed to the time. So that is what I'm telling myself is that I'm going to be here for the 45 minutes. I don't want to be the person that's like, oh, you don't feel like it today, we'll just leave. And so I'm like, all right, why don't we stand? Why don't we like look through the window?

Speaker 1:
[28:25] Okay.

Speaker 2:
[28:27] See how you feel. And then I will tell you, and then I'm going to go. I'm going to go and the teacher is going to come get you. And I'm okay with her kind of crying through the class.

Speaker 1:
[28:41] By the way, you know your kid. Yeah. That's the thing.

Speaker 2:
[28:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[28:46] You know your kid and you kind of know, and I always love this phrase, like you know her arc.

Speaker 2:
[28:50] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[28:51] So just say a little, like, why might this be, I always call it, why is this maybe just part of her arc?

Speaker 2:
[28:56] This because as soon as I walk away her, all of the times this has happened, I get a photo of her just more joyous than she was before we left.

Speaker 1:
[29:11] And they're like, your daughter is amazing in dance class.

Speaker 2:
[29:16] As soon as you walked away, mom, she was fine.

Speaker 1:
[29:20] That's exactly right. And I'll just paint a different picture in my house, because I think, let's talk about getting out of the house, which can feel like such a disaster, and my kid's being so hard, and they're not getting ready. And again, first thought, punishment, because I need to let them know it's not okay. I want some validation that they're making warnings hard, and I don't want them to do this. Well, there's other ways to do the first couple of things. And maybe, I think we're just going to have curiosity. Maybe punishment isn't the best way. And maybe there is a lot between punishment and weak and pathetic. So here's, again, a different way of intervening. First of all, I really do say to myself when we're in a hard morning stage, like to myself, just, mornings have been rough. My kids have been dragging their feet. I just tell them, that's all true. I know that, that matters. That takes the heat down a tiny percentage because I'm not looking for them to give me that.

Speaker 2:
[30:09] Okay.

Speaker 1:
[30:10] Number two, I think a lot about whether we approach our kids, our partners. Am I approaching you like you're on one side of the table and I'm looking at you like you are the problem? And there wouldn't be a problem, you just came to my side of the table. The ultimate partner fight. If you were like me, we wouldn't have an issue. Versus, same with the kid, we're actually on the same side of the table and together we're looking at a problem. And I think this is really powerful as an alternative to punishment because the problem isn't necessarily my kid. The problem is that mornings have been a disaster. And if I assume we're actually on the same team against that, I would actually have not a punishment approach, not a permissive approach. I would coach like a coaching approach. It's like if you have a kid who keeps missing layups, you could say, I'm going to punish you if you miss another one. But I actually don't know if there's any parent listening who's like, yes, yes to that coach, punish my child. Or if they want the coach who said, something's going on with layups, I'm on your team, let's figure it out together. What comes up for you?

Speaker 2:
[31:21] I just, as long as I've been doing this, it is still sometimes a challenge to remember we are on the same team. I don't know that there was a parent out there that doesn't, mornings don't wear them down. Right. If I could just say, the morning is the issue and it's not the fact that my kid never knows where their shoes are.

Speaker 1:
[31:51] Look, and I do think this is a practice. Mindsets are practices and our old mindsets come in. The truth is same team mindset is the opposite of punishment mindset. I don't think the opposite of punishing is permissiveness. Maybe the opposite of punishing is being on the same team. Being on the same team doesn't mean condoning behavior. If I'm coaching a basketball team and my player has a lot of turnovers and I say hey, I'm on your team, let's figure it out together, it's interesting. I just don't think anyone thinks, oh, oh, so you're telling Jason Tatum that it's okay he has turnovers. That's like a psychotic interpretation. No one would even think that if I'm Coach Missoula of the Boston Celtics, right? They would think that's a good coach. Of course, you're on the same team, everyone wants the same things. We forget, I do have a good kid. It doesn't seem like it, but I do. So I just want to finish this morning's because if I'm in a good spot, I'll talk to my kid at night, not in the morning when it's a disaster. Hey, mornings have been really tough. I actually think, I just want to let you know, first of all, it's nobody's fault. We're on the same team. I feel like you probably want them to go smoother too. Nobody wants this yelling, screaming thing. So I have a couple ideas of what I could do. I wonder if you have a couple ideas that would make mornings easier for you and we could, I don't know, just come talk about it for a minute. We can figure it out together. Because one of the things I learn every time I talk to my kids that way, and for someone thinking, but my kids two or three, I started talking to my kids that way when they were one and two. They're not going to say anything profound, but this is all a practice for how you're relating. Even a young kid who can't articulate something sophisticated, knows when they're being approached as opposite team or same team. We just feel it. And I almost always get something like, maybe I can put out my shoes the night before, and I can be like, great idea. Or if they don't, I could say something like, is it hard to leave the morning? Just hard to get out of the house and get ready for the day ahead. Usually, by the way, if anyone said that to me, I'd just be like, yes. Right. Going back to that last thing of, but I want my kid to be less likely to do it again. When I bring my kid in on the same team, and they're involved in coming up with solution, I really mean this. I have found that to be consistently the most helpful thing in getting them to change behavior, because they're actually brought in to being part of a solution instead of being labeled as the problem. I mean, it's completely different.

Speaker 2:
[34:26] I know. As you're saying this, my brain is just like bubbling, because it almost feels like what you're saying is, as a parent, there are things that I can do to either slow myself down or prevent having to lean on just, that's it, this is over. And what you're saying is, okay, if I prepare, like a little bit, like you said, if I just, I'm going to just prepare a little bit. If I know that this is an issue or, you know, if I don't want something broken, I may start the night before or before I get it, hey, we're going to be getting a new, my kids love to break TVs. Right.

Speaker 1:
[35:14] I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:
[35:15] Yeah, they're just right.

Speaker 1:
[35:16] Your bank account.

Speaker 2:
[35:17] We're going to be getting a new something, right? But also what I really love, and I think this one is, is tough for parents because of sometimes the age of involving them.

Speaker 1:
[35:29] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[35:29] Of saying, what do you think we might do when we get the new television that maybe we won't throw toys in the living room. You know, maybe what? Right. You get them involved because I will just tell you that is what happened.

Speaker 1:
[35:48] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[35:48] This is definitely a punishable offense. My daughter threw a toy at the television and it's done. And that's something that I probably would have been punished for.

Speaker 1:
[35:58] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[35:59] But I definitely didn't do the pre-part, but now that I know when I got the second television, I'm like, all right, let's get you involved. And I did not, there was no punishment. I didn't yell and it's just like, okay, let's not throw toys across the living room.

Speaker 1:
[36:16] And this is a hard part. When our kids are young, especially, we'll see our kid near the TV throwing something we know they shouldn't throw. And I'm so guilty of this. Stop throwing that. Please don't throw that. Even though the rule is no having that in the living room.

Speaker 2:
[36:32] Right.

Speaker 1:
[36:33] Versus, hey, I'm coming over to you, we're on the same team, you know we don't do that. If you can't give it to me by the time I get there, I will carry it, I will carry you in it, whatever it is. To another room, like kind of stepping in sooner. What is kind of the amended, let's see, is this true? If I don't punish, I'm permissive. If I don't punish, I'm weak. What's the kind of, yeah, where are we landing here?

Speaker 2:
[36:58] Where are we landing?

Speaker 1:
[36:59] Yeah. Where are we landing this plane?

Speaker 2:
[37:01] If I don't punish, I am building skills. If I don't punish, I am, I don't know, I'm staying connected. I'm letting my child know that I am on their team and that I'm willing to, however long it takes, like you said, if it was swimming, if it was anything else, however long it takes for us to learn this together, because I feel like there's all these little things that we are punishing for. And it's just like, you know, that I'm willing to stay with you in this until this changes. And eventually it does.

Speaker 1:
[37:37] I really like that. I think, I'm trying to think where I'm landing. If I don't punish, or like, the opposite of punishment isn't being weak and permissive. Maybe the true opposite of punishment is same team leadership.

Speaker 2:
[37:52] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[37:52] Right, because I think that's what I'm left with too. So much of punishing is just reacting to.

Speaker 2:
[37:57] Right.

Speaker 1:
[37:58] And I think the best leaders, they're not reacting to. They're grounded enough to, they make decisions. They lead. They don't just react. And so I think same team leadership is kind of what the best coaches do. I think it's what the best CEOs do when they're in hard moments. And that feels actually powerful to me.

Speaker 2:
[38:21] Yes.

Speaker 1:
[38:22] And I think that's important because I do think parents have an appropriate amount of power, not control, but just there's an authority.

Speaker 2:
[38:30] For sure.

Speaker 1:
[38:31] And so I think the opposite of punishment is embodying that authority and leading and coaching being on the same team. So, is it true if you don't punish your permissive? I'm going to go first to Myleik to see where she landed, and then I'll share my thoughts. Is it true?

Speaker 2:
[38:50] No, it's not true. It's not true that if you don't punish your permissive, if you don't punish, you're taking the time to build skills for change, for the change that you actually want to see.

Speaker 1:
[39:01] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[39:01] You're not weak. You're not letting them walk over you. I think you're fine if you don't punish.

Speaker 1:
[39:09] I really don't think I have that much to add. I think that's exactly right. I don't think it's true either. And the thing I want to do, if this resonates, I want to let you know I'm going to do this for you, is to me sometimes the best way of bringing something to life is actually through a specific example. So what I'm going to do on my blog as a follow up, you can go to the show notes to get the link, is I'm going to take a certain situation that drives us crazy, at different age groups. So no matter how old your kid is, you'll have an example that makes sense. I'm going to go through kind of punishment, what feels natural for most of us, permissiveness, and then what I kind of call Good Inside Sturdy Leadership, because I think that's what this middle ground is that we're talking about. So you can kind of see it really clearly in very real life examples. All right, let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. See you soon. One thing I see over and over with parents is just how much we're carrying. The data backs this up. Most parents spend nearly every waking hour focused on someone else. So if you feel exhausted, stretch thin, or like your brain never really shuts off, that makes complete sense. I've seen how powerful it can be when families have more support. When parents have trusted caregivers, the mental load lightens and they're actually able to be more present. Not because they're doing more, but because they're not doing it all alone. care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background-checked caregivers, whether that's support for a newborn, before or after school help, or even care for an aging parent. You can search by experience, read reviews and find support in a way that feels safer and more intentional than social media or word of mouth alone. Do you know that you can find activities, camps, and daycare on care.com too? For a limited time, you can use the code GOOD35 to save 35 percent on a care.com premium membership. Because when you have support, you can show up as your best self for the people who need you.