transcript

Speaker 1:
[00:00] Hi, Love Trapped listeners, it's Stephani. It's been a whirlwind of a week. I just got back from South by Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas. It was an unbelievable experience where I was able to meet some of my favorite podcast hosts and even got to present an award at the iHeart Podcast Awards. I also got to do a sit down interview live from Austin with Clayton and my executive producer for Love Trapped, and the host of the hit true crime podcast Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. Also, fun fact about Betrayal, on Sunday, March 29th at 10pm Eastern, Betrayal is premiering on ABC Network, one of the first podcasts to become a primetime TV series. I'm so excited for all my colleagues associated with this show, so please be sure to check it out. And don't forget, new episodes of Love Trapped come out every Thursday. Thank you so much for your support. Now let's get into it. Here's my sit down conversation with Clayton and Andrea about how Love Trapped came to be. I hope you enjoy it. So I've been with Glass Podcast since June of last year, and this is my first time meeting my executive producer for Love Trapped in person, Andrea Gunning. She is the host and producer of Betrayal, also another iHeart and Glass podcast. And we are at South by Southwest in Austin, Texas with iHeart. And we've got Clayton Echard here, and we're going to talk a little bit about the making of Love Trapped.

Speaker 2:
[01:24] Yeah, it's great. It's such a good show, guys. You really knocked it out of the park.

Speaker 3:
[01:28] Well, thank you obviously for providing us with a platform to do so. And you're quite an expert, obviously, in stories like this. I'm just curious, first question I want to start off with is, does this impact you mentally to go through these things? And how do you protect your own mental health?

Speaker 2:
[01:52] That's a really good question. Not a lot of people take the time to ask, so thank you for asking that. They do impact me. I deal with it in different ways. I try to really protect my physical health to keep my energy up. I think I worked, one of my first podcasts that I ever produced was confronting Columbine. And immediately after I went and bought a dog, I was like, I need emotional support. Like you need love and a safe space. But I've been doing it for so long now that I can kind of compartmentalize. But it does take a toll. Like this past season of Betrayal Season 5 is really near and dear to my heart because it's about a really heavy topic that I've experienced in an adjacent way. So I have a really great team. Stephanie's on it. You're incredible. And I think it's just like relying on the team around you to pick up where you need to do and take the time, go for walks, and just manage the material where you can. That's all I can really say. I work out. I lift a lot of weights. That also helps.

Speaker 3:
[02:59] That definitely helps.

Speaker 2:
[03:00] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[03:02] There's so many sensitive topics in Love Trapped. And I think one of the things that I've realized in my research is that a lot of the people in the support system comes from people that have experienced something like Laura claims she has experienced. So I know that you and I have had conversations about that offline where it's like these are really sensitive topics. How are we going to take care of these when we tell them to the audience? And also, how are we going to take care of ourselves? So that was a really great question, Clayton.

Speaker 3:
[03:32] Thank you. And I also want to know, I mean, why hop on this? I'm super grateful to have you as a part of the team. But what was the draw? Because you guys originally came to me and asked if this was something that I'd be comfortable sharing. And certainly, your reputation and what I had seen, I'm like, okay, this is somebody that understands. They share stories of similar natures. So for me, I'm in good hands with expertise. But what drew you guys to reaching out?

Speaker 2:
[04:05] So I can't speak for, we have another company we work with, it's Crybaby. Danny and Love, it's a little inside baseball, but they were the ones that originally reached out to you. And I think that they just saw, I think Love was googling a Laura Owens for something completely different.

Speaker 3:
[04:20] An artist. An artist. Completely different. So crazy how that comes together, by the way, that he was looking for a completely separate Laura Owens.

Speaker 2:
[04:27] Right, and so Love works in development and he's constantly finding stories. And so he was online looking for something completely different, stumbled upon your Laura Owens. And I think through that, just once you get a sense of the story, you do a deep dive. And I think in episode one, you even say to Stephani, like, be careful, because once you start, like, you can't, you're...

Speaker 3:
[04:51] It's the rabbit hole that you never returned from.

Speaker 1:
[04:53] I'm there right now. Yeah, I'm in it.

Speaker 2:
[04:56] Absolutely. And so when Danny and Lev brought this to Glass Podcasts, which is a division of Glass Entertainment Group, my colleague Ben and I were just, oh, this feels really in line with a lot of the stuff that we do, specifically Betrayal. Don't like saying it, but my brand is Betrayal, Lies and Deceit, and your story has a lot of that. But it's not just about the lies, it's about the aftermath and the emotional experience when you've been, your life has been hijacked by somebody and has altered your reality. And I think that Glass has a really good job of taking a complicated story and allowing the audience to emotionally relate to it. So, yeah, the headlines are the obvious roller coaster of story points that your story has. But what really intrigued me was the emotional access that people could relate to from you. That's what's important to me in storytelling.

Speaker 1:
[05:56] And how did it come about? You know, like, Love finds this podcast or this idea for a podcast or a documentary, and then what happens from there? Because I signed on for this project after it had already been sold to iHeart.

Speaker 2:
[06:10] Yeah. I mean, you worked on it sooner than I did, actually, Clayton. You guys did a reel for television. And so at Glass, we simultaneously shopped the audio rights and then the non-scripted rights. And so Danny and Love were creating a reel, and then Ben and I saw it and we're like, what is this story? Oh my God. We got to send this to our partners and shop it around. But the first place we took it was iHeart. And they just get it. They understand everything about what betrayal brings to the table in terms of complicated storytelling and knows that we can deliver on how complicated your story is. And they got it right away.

Speaker 1:
[06:54] Yeah. And I think what's so interesting too is that I had actually interviewed for a job with you in 2021.

Speaker 2:
[07:00] Yes, you did. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1:
[07:01] And my husband got the job over me. We accidentally applied for the same job. And then I took another job that I really, really loved and got laid off. And so when this came across my desk, when it was brought to me, like, I think the question for you is why, why me for this story?

Speaker 2:
[07:19] Well, I think I should tell Clayton that we were, there was two finalists, and it was Stephanie's husband and Stephani. And we just, it was more of a male producing role. And so that's why her husband got the job. But ever since we had interviewed you for that, it wasn't the right fit. It was more of a male POV. So, but ever since then, we were like, what's Stephani doing? And your husband's like, she's busy, like, leave her alone. And so when this came around, I knew that you had interest in Bachelor Nation because you had interviewed for Jason Tardik's show, right?

Speaker 1:
[07:55] So like, I didn't interview. I was like in in process of like trying to really work on that show.

Speaker 2:
[08:01] That was the story that I got. I was like, oh, so she's clearly in Bachelor Nation. Maybe she'll have interest in working on your story. But I just through our conversations, I knew that you could really dive into source material. There is so much material to read and immerse yourself in, like legally, the legal documents, thousands and thousands of pages. And this is a high-stake story. We're dealing with someone that's really complicated, very litigious. So it takes someone that's going to be really careful. And I just felt that you could do it. I felt like you were the right person for the job.

Speaker 1:
[08:39] Thank you. And I have to say that I've learned so much from you, from a storytelling perspective. And I couldn't have done this podcast without the Glass Podcast team. I mean, I'm hosting it and I'm the producer, but the people behind the scenes, really, audio editors, story editors, producers, like every single person you hear in the credits, puts such a good touch on making this the final product. The one thing I do want to ask Clayton, though, is we had that first conversation and you're like, you know, you're going to be in over your head with this. When was the moment for you that you decided, like, I'm going to trust Stephanie with this? Because you were a little guarded at first.

Speaker 3:
[09:16] How were you? I was, yeah, I actually wasn't enthused at all about doing a podcast. I wanted it to be a documentary or be nothing, just because I wasn't really aware of how the podcast would actually turn out. And so I had them basically kind of proof to me that I said, send me material. What have you done in the past? Let me, like, actually see a proof of concept. And when I listened to one of the podcasts within, like, a minute, I realized I'm like, this is not your typical podcast. This is a storytelling way of doing it. It's really intriguing. And you know what? This actually could work. And so I then became very excited by that. But I was still like, hey, look, we're pushing this as a documentary, right? Like, that's the first and foremost. It's just this podcast will be on the back end of it. Funny how that works out. Thankfully, I just, you know, said, let's do it. But then when I met Stephani, yeah, I mean, look, she's very sweet. She's nice. Like, she's, I mean, I've loved her to death since she's come on the team. But I thought, look, you don't know what you're getting into. Like, there's just so much here. And unless you are willing to, like, fully immerse yourself, you're going to miss out on details. You're not going to tell it correctly. And this is going to potentially put me at risk of, like, having a story told in an incorrect manner.

Speaker 2:
[10:39] Which you've already had.

Speaker 3:
[10:40] Which I've already had. You know, I've been very, you know, sensitive to that with previous shows, where I'm not really happy with how things are portrayed. Because to me, they're not fully real to what I experienced. And so, this is another situation where I'm like, look, if I'm going to be vulnerable again, allow producers once again to tell my life story. I'm not doing this where it gets told incorrectly or altered in a way to just make it appear sexier at the expense of me. That was obviously the big hesitancy. So, what really sold me on you was the amount of time and the genuine... I could just feel your energy from the jump. I'm like, she's really... Like, she cares, first and foremost. This isn't about her just nabbing a new story. This is really about her looking me in the eyes and being like, I really want to share your story and tell this, and I will put as much effort in as I can to make this in a way that, you know, that tells your story in the way that you want it to be told. And it was a good synergistic relationship because I told her, I want it to be told in the real way. I don't want this to be like everyone, Pat Clayton on the back and call him a superstar. I said, I want this to be shared as it is. Like, I'm not on a pedestal. Like, I'm just, I'm in the middle somewhere. I'm not good. I'm not bad. I'm just in the middle like any other human.

Speaker 2:
[12:01] I really respect that. And I think one of our core values at Glass Podcasts is, like, the beautiful complexity that is the human experience. It is not a binary black and white thing. Good and bad choices. There are gradients of decision making where, you know, there's accountability and culpability on different sides of the street. And what I love about Betrayal, what I love about your show and just your story, is you're okay with leaning into your vulnerabilities and the choices that you make. And I think that there's emotional access there. We talk about that a lot at Class Podcasts about what's emotional access. Like, the part of me that's a part of you. Someone could hear your story and say, I made a similar decision. I didn't meet a lot of our own, but I kind of walk similar steps. And you can only do that by living in that gray, right? Like, and that's the real reality. It's not like the good and the bad. It's the middle.

Speaker 3:
[13:03] Yeah. And for me too, I mean, I also, as I realized when I decided to make this known to a larger audience, that I was receiving a lot of back on the back side of things in my DMs, you know, support from men that were saying, Hey, look, like, thank you so much for speaking up because I'm going through this. And then I was getting 10, 20, 15, or 50 different messages of people saying that my brother went through this, or a friend went through this, or my significant other. And, you know, I have been grateful because I think victims should just be able to tell their story, whatever victims look like, you know, whether you're male, female, whatever, you know, your skin color doesn't matter. It's like if you're the victim, you're the victim and everyone deserves to have their story be told. So for me, it seemed that I was able to, you know, start shining a light on, hey, like, there's victims of all different shapes and sizes and like we just need to get this story out. Because, yeah, I mean, it's, there's a lot of people that don't speak up because they're like, I'm not certain how it'll be received. And I hope that, I mean, what's been awesome about this podcast is I think it's encouraging a lot of people to speak up because the reception is positive. Hey, and I also, again, I'm like, look, don't portray me as perfect, portray me as human, because that's what's relatable. And people can go, okay, like, look, I don't have to be a perfect human in order to be believed. I just have to be real and honest.

Speaker 1:
[14:34] And let's talk about that for a second. In this story, the main victims are males. And there's a lot of collateral damage in Love Trapped where it's, you know, family members, attorneys. The victims run deep, in my opinion, on this, but the main victims are male. In Betrayal, we hear a lot of female victims and a few males. So what was it like for you to kind of flip the script and executive produce a story that is kind of different? Same, but different than Betrayal?

Speaker 2:
[15:04] It is different. I mean, we're always looking for male POV because, you know, we just have, our community is primarily female on Betrayal. And the people that come forward who want to share their story are mostly women. And so we'll take, whenever we can, if there's a guy that wants to share their story, we're like, absolutely, because it just helps dismantle shame. And I think, for men in particular, that's the biggest hurdle. So when they hear other men come out, you know, talk about their story, share what they went through, it helps another man on the other side of just listening and say, okay, maybe I can talk about it. Maybe not on a worldwide global platform, but I can share it with a friend. And so that's why I think it's really important for diversity of voices. And I would love to have more men on the show. And that's why I think you are so valuable is because you're like, it's not often where a man can come forward and say, all this happened to me because of shame, I think.

Speaker 1:
[16:08] And the emotional vulnerability of Clayton throughout this entire process has been something that I've really admired. Like from the very beginning, you haven't held anything back, whether it's anger, sadness, excitement sometimes about what's going on with the case. So I just want to tell you thank you for that because that's what's made this story as great as it is.

Speaker 3:
[16:30] Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, I thought as I reflect upon anytime that I share something, it's if I'm feeling something, then somebody else, if they go through something similar, likely has these wave of emotions. And yeah, there's obviously the pressure sometimes that falls on my shoulders where I say, hey, it's been three years. I was, it was okay for me to have anger on year one, but by year three, I should be able to be okay with it and I should be the bigger person. But then I realized, I'm like, that's just not how healing occurs. It's not a linear thing. You might feel like you're over it and then some old feelings come back. And for me, I feel it's a responsibility to showcase that because I'm not trying to come across as a perfect human. I think if I did that, it would just, other people then might listen in and go, oh, I guess I'm not handling this correctly, so I'm not going to be able to get through this. It's like, no, if I share that I'm still having vulnerable moments and I thought I was past things that I'm not and I'm going back, it's like, it's not really going backwards. This is just being human. Like this is how things naturally progress. So I've let that go where I'm like, Clayton, you don't have to seem like you're now all of a sudden three years later, like you've gotten to this level of maturity. You can show the raw emotions that still exist. If they exist, then show them. If they don't exist, don't show them. But just give whatever is within you. Put that out there, because that's going to be relatable to a lot of people. They're going to say, okay, look, he still deals with this. So they'll give themself grace, because they'll say, hey, I'm three years into my situation. I still have anger, but so does he, so this must be normal.

Speaker 1:
[18:09] And I think it's okay for you to still have anger because the story is still ongoing. It's not completely closed yet.

Speaker 3:
[18:16] Yeah, look, I think anger is, there's certainly like, I mean, there's a purpose for it. I don't think we're supposed to eradicate anger from our lives. I mean, it's important. Someone breaks into your house, you wanna have anger kick in, right? You need a quick emotion to like go fight back. And so, and for me, same thing, if somebody harms you, you know, not just sometimes turning the other cheek, but sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. And that was the realization that I quickly picked up on with Laura was like, it's a fire with fire scenario. So, I need to allow, like if she's going to fight with hatred in her heart, I need to fight with anger in mine. Because like that's the only way that sometimes you have to get to that point where it's the only way that you can battle back and win the battle. So it's picking and choosing those times. But I think anger has a negative connotation. And I'm trying to show people that there's a place for it where it's actually useful.

Speaker 1:
[19:11] And Andrea, let me ask you this. With a lot of the betrayal stories, there's a conclusion. You know, like there is a court case that has been adjudicated. And how have the victims on betrayal handled when it's finally done in the court system and they have to move on with their lives after that?

Speaker 2:
[19:30] This may not be the answer you want to hear, but oftentimes, it's a whole new experience. Like, there's sometimes a conditional way of thinking when you're in, like, a trauma mode. A lot of times when you're dealing with the criminal justice system, you're in survival mode. And you are living and existing in conditional thinking. If I just get here to this court date, this hearing, I'm just moving forward. I'm putting one foot in front of the other. And I totally understand that. And so when you get to a sentencing hearing or a plea deal, and you think it's an ending, you realize that actually on the other side of it is a whole new journey of dealing with whatever that decision is, whatever the verdict is, whatever the sentencing is. And it's a whole new wound you've just opened. And so for me, a lot of my storytellers, it's that unpredictable. They, like, it's a different stage and a whole different set of grief. Like, you're just existing and dealing with one aspect, and then you can actually then mourn and grieve the actual thing that you experienced on the other side of it. So that could, I don't know what will happen, but it's just, that's oftentimes what I find with the people I work with. There's a whole other set when there's a conclusion.

Speaker 3:
[20:51] Yeah, which makes sense, and I can attest to that. I mean, you think about what reality might be, but of course, like when you go to these court hearings, and there's an outcome presented, you know, that becomes your reality, and that becomes the thing that you then react to. Because prior to that point, you say, it could be this, it could be this, it could be this. So you're prepping your emotions for what might be. But really, I mean, that's almost in a way wasted energy, because it's not actuality. I mean, that's where, yes, with this court case coming up, I've obviously thought about what could occur. But ultimately, like, a wound or, you know, something will open up once the facts are all laid out there. And it's like, here is the outcome. This is where we're headed now. Now I have to respond to that path that we're on, because that's the path we're walking down.

Speaker 2:
[21:39] A lot of what we deal with on betrayal is, you know, you have the personal, interpersonal betrayal, but then there's that secondary betrayal that exists within institutions. And in a lot of my cases, it's with the criminal justice system. And the sentencing, not really matching the crime. And knowing, like, the prosecutors, the people on the legal teams with the best of intentions, but very little resources, can't really accomplish, whether it's because of the laws in certain states or just because of the amount of caseload that they have. There is just this injustice between someone's life being fundamentally altered by this person versus, you know, 18 months in jail or no jail time and just probation. And that is a whole other level of betrayal and emotional, like, having to reconcile that we often deal with just at glass and, like, the stories that we pick. That's what's really fascinating to me. And what is justice and how do you relate to it? And it's hard to confront a system that you're supposed to believe in. And that also fail you. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[22:50] Andrea, with all of the stories that you've covered in Betrayal, after these have been adjudicated, like we just talked about, is there a happy ending for people?

Speaker 2:
[23:01] At the end of our Betrayal Weekly, we ask everyone, why do you want to share your story? We used to end our shows with, like, where people are now. And oftentimes, we would wrap up the episode by saying, you know, this person can trust again, and then they've met, they're in a relationship, or they got married. And we used to get emails that said, stop ending your episodes with relationship, because these people don't need another person to be fulfilled. So in a way, we started rewriting the way that we would end our weekly episodes, to be like, actually, where is that person today? Like, what is their purpose? How are they finding life? And really defining, you know, what their life looks like today, as opposed to who they are in relationship with another person. The limited run series, we really spend, like, where they're at in their journey and what they're hoping for in the future. So for me, I don't believe in conditional thinking. Like, I don't believe in, like, where is my ending? I just think it's a constant pursuit of where am I going to feel fulfilled? And that feels so ongoing, which is hard when you work in an industry that wants a bookend. But for me, again, we talk about the complexity of being human, but that's reality. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[24:18] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[24:19] You know?

Speaker 3:
[24:20] Yeah, I mean, I think you said that perfectly. I know we all want a happy ending that makes us feel good, but I believe, like, life, it's a journey and it's a process. And, you know, when you go through situations like this, I believe that those happier endings do occur, but maybe by the time you follow up, they're still deep within their healing journey. You know, maybe they've closed that chapter, but it opened up another five. I mean, that's what I found as I went on my journey towards, you know, healing from my past and going through things like this is like, you might heal from one thing, and then you open up five more from the past, just because, like, a lot of things when we were younger, we didn't have the emotional wherewithal to unpack it. So as you go deeper down this, into your past, you start connecting dots, and it just opens up five more doors.

Speaker 2:
[25:08] Yeah, and I think I can say, when I work on a limited run series, we'll dedicate, you know, nine months to a year, sometimes two years working with one storyteller on Betrayal, and then we'll not see them for some time, and then we'll go out and shoot the TV show, and so I'll get to be with them again. And then for two other families, like, we did a cruise, like, another, like, a year later, so I saw them at very different stages over the course of two, three years. And it's such an evolving experience, and, you know, different times of the year bring up really different emotions. And so I just look at them as, like, fully formed humans, and they're just getting through their life in their day. And so for me, I just see them in their own sequence of life as opposed to, you know, me being comfortable with whether, okay, that's on them, you know what I mean? Like, that's, I have to be okay with knowing that they're just living their life, you know?

Speaker 1:
[26:07] And let me ask you this, Clayton, what has been the most rewarding part of this for you? And also, what do you hope comes out of this?

Speaker 3:
[26:16] I believe for me, I mean, the most rewarding aspect has been the collective healing that I've seen. For one, to be able to see the other victims and see hope come back within their bodies, and for them to say, hey, look, actually, everything after all this time, I actually might be able to close the chapter on this, because it'll be over, as opposed to her continually antagonizing us. But then I've also seen healing from a greater level of just the entire community, and people coming together with shared experiences of trauma and being able to find their tribe. That's been the most rewarding aspect of all of this. So for what I hope for, what to come from this is just a continuance of that. You know, I mean, selfishly sure, anything that can help me out in my life through more exposure, I'll take. But it's not the expectation that this launches me into another realm of relevancy or whatever. It's more, hey, this has been a really great display of community involvement and what it can do. So I hope that this forever ties people together and new friendships are made. And like, if this carries on and it all splits up, we all go our separate ways. But a few of us have a couple of new friends along the way that we can lean on when we go through hardships in the future. Like, that's what I would hope for is just that. That's what occurs from all of this.

Speaker 1:
[27:56] And I think the online community has been such an incredible part of this entire story. And as we're still in the trenches of production of Love Trapped, Andrea, I want to ask you, throughout this entire experience, from development to now, to hearing the episodes that have come out, to knowing what's coming, because we obviously talk about them behind the scenes, like, what has been the most surprising part of this entire story for you?

Speaker 2:
[28:24] The amount of people that have come to support you, that have rallied behind you, it's an incredible thing to witness and bear witness to. Like, why, respectfully, like, if I were in your position, I'd be like, why is everyone championing me? Like, why me? Why this story? And when you really sit and think about it and sit with it, I think it's because not only is it just people who are fighting for truth and, like, realness in a really difficult time culturally in our society, but also she hits on really delicate things that a lot of women deal with. Very deep inside, we're talking about really tough subject matter like rape, pregnancy, big decisions around pregnancy. And so there are a lot of women that have walked those shoes, and men, like, and, you know, that have lived it, that have made the choices that she has claimed to make, and hear her set of facts and are like, whoa, that is so not right. And so when you kind of go through things that she's claiming she's gone through, it is so real and so raw that you feel like no other option but to rally for the truth because we're talking about really big subjects. I hope I'm making sense, but that's why I think that was what was most surprising for me, is to see how what she's doing, what she's putting out there, people on such a visceral level are like, that's not okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[30:04] Because it's so many things. It's not just one thing. Like you said, it's rape, it's pregnancy, it's pregnancy loss, it's all of these things, all these sensitive things that happen to women.

Speaker 2:
[30:16] Right. So whether or not you've been a victim of sexual assault, whether or not that you've decided, and listen, maybe right now is not the right time for me to have this child, for whatever reason, whether you've had a miscarriage, these are all very intense emotional experiences to go through alone. Because you're dealing with something that involves your body. And it's so complicated. So when someone weaponizes those things, it's really, really hard. So to watch that community, like you get it, you're like, okay, this is like, you've got the internet detectives, like this is crazy, they're helping the bachelor. But when you really sit with the reality of why they're doing it, it is really true and really honest and like, deeply feminist, which is why I love it.

Speaker 3:
[31:07] Well, it needs to be bigger than me. It is bigger than me. I've even seen people say we should change the name. I'm like, and I'm fine with that. Because I think if you just kept it at me, it couldn't reach the audience that it has. It couldn't help out more than it'd be like, oh, well, the center focus is just on him. It's like, no, no, no. Let's have healing far greater than just me. Let's build a community far wider. I think what's like to what you just said, the shock is that you'd think that like, good is what unites people. But truly what it was is of all of Laura's lies of what she claims she went through that she never did. And it's evil united everybody. And that's what's, this is what you're seeing, is true evil united a large group of people. And had she not made those claims, I don't think you'd have the level of support and the collective group that you have.

Speaker 2:
[31:56] Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1:
[31:59] So Clayton, it's obvious that you were the former bachelor. I think there's a couple of episodes where we're having conversations about something and I'm like, I cannot believe that this is my job and this is what I'm talking to the former bachelor about because it's honestly that wild. But when we brought the podcast to you, what was it like for you to see this team of producers, this production and be able to trust them? Yeah. Trust us, I guess, with your story.

Speaker 3:
[32:29] Yeah. I mean, look, I have trust issues with entertainment groups because it's a whole conglomerate of people. And I've also realized for the longest, I said, I don't trust producers. But really, I was putting all of that weight on their shoulders because the further that I got into the mix and understood all the players in the game, I realized the editors are the ones that really are just as equally at fault, at least when it comes to if I'm placing fault on people that are causing me to lack trust. And so, even though we had a strong connection right away and I trusted you, I was still like, look, I'm fearful of the editors because they are behind the scenes. I'm not talking with them. So they're not getting to know me. So all they get is they get material fed to them and they go, well, this is what we have and we can take this in this direction or this direction or that direction. And so even though I was able to lower my guard with you, it wasn't until the first episode came out that I was able to actually fully lower my guard because it was, all right, here we go again. I'm going to press play and there's no going back. So when I press play, it doesn't matter if I don't like this. By the end of this podcast, I will understand what narrative that they're spinning and is it something that is aligned with me or is it not? Because it doesn't really matter at this point. If it's not aligned with me, I can't press the rewind button. It's out there and this is the way that they're taking it. And I've already signed the documents. So when you sign on the dotted line, they tell you nothing to worry about. We're going to tell your story in the way that you want to be told. And if you're a good person, that's the way that you'll be perceived. I was told that verbatim. And then I watched my show Air on The Bachelor. And talk about really messing me up psychologically. Because I went back to that moment. I watched The Bachelor and I said, but wait, they said if I was a good person, that's the way I'll be perceived. So am I not a good person? That's what I had to fight with. And it really talked about some of that anger. I have harbored a lot of anger towards that individual because I'm like, what, did you lie to me? Or maybe I'm a monster and I don't even realize it. Have I lied to myself? So it's hard. And even though you were incredible from the jump until I pressed play on episode one, I was really just vulnerable and thought, I'm honestly, this could be round three, or round, at this point, round four of putting my story out there. And it could be told in the wrong way.

Speaker 1:
[35:24] And I want you to know, from my perspective, and Dre can attest to this.

Speaker 2:
[35:27] She really cared. She was really, and you are, you continue to be, and you never stop, but she always was keeping you in mind. And there was this level of also keeping Laura in mind too, in certain ways. It's really hard when you're dealing with a lot of flies. But we do consider the complexity of her stories too, of like, could she go back to Planned Parenthood twice because she wasn't ready the first time? Yeah, the reality is she could because that's a scary experience. So it's like a delicate balance of being fair, but also just telling reality. And throughout the whole time, you were just trying to do right by the story. And you're the kind of person of like, the truth is the truth. And so it was not hard.

Speaker 3:
[36:12] Yeah. I mean, because also too, I'm glad you brought it up, look like beneath the anger or beyond the anger, Laura is still a human. And I think, you know, it's not for me, it's not about trying to raise me up and lift me up and then push her further down. I really want her to heal. I want her to see a brighter day. And so, you know, it's uncovering and sharing the story and hopefully, you know, being able to find resolution across the board. You know, I would love to be able to see her be able to have her moment where she, something strikes a nerve or opens up her mind and goes, wait, hold on, like something's clearly off here. By way of numbers, the community that has formed against me, I mean, maybe I'm in the wrong here. Maybe I've been lied to. Maybe I've had the wrong people in my corner. So again, there's a complexity. And we're not here to say here's the good and here's the bad, as most TV shows do. It's just good, bad, happy, sad. And it's like, no, this is about the complexity of the human life and sharing stories, but also being mindful that everyone involved in this is still human. How do we produce an outcome that is favorable to all long-term? Because we're not trying to drive someone further down the hole. That was really beautifully said.

Speaker 1:
[37:41] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[37:41] Because I don't think we've talked about that, but I do feel like that was always something that we internally, as women, were voicing and something that I was saying in episode eight of like, okay, well, as someone that had walked in similar shoes, I've made these decisions. Let's be fair to it. And it's hard when you know that they're a lie. But knowing that it could still exist in a different and not shame a woman for going back a second time. And that their reality is real. So it's a hard show. You guys have done an incredible job.

Speaker 1:
[38:10] Thank you.

Speaker 3:
[38:11] Thank you.

Speaker 2:
[38:12] Really balancing all of the lies and realities at once.

Speaker 3:
[38:15] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[38:15] Thank you so much for joining us, Andrea. This has been such a wonderful conversation. And of course, thanks to you, Clayton. It's been really fun being at South by Southwest with iHeart with you guys this weekend. So Andrea, tell us where we can find Betrayal.

Speaker 2:
[38:29] Yeah, you can get it on the iHeart radio app. You can also subscribe through Apple True Crime Plus. You can get it through the Apple Podcast or wherever you got your podcasts.