transcript

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Speaker 1:
[01:52] My name is Martin. I'm a soldier of Spain, and that's it. Most of my life, I've spent fighting for land, treasure and the cross. I'm worth millions. Soon I'll be dead, and they'll bury me out here in Peru, the land I helped ruin as a boy. This story is about ruin, ruin and gold. More gold than any of you will ever see, even if you work in a counting house. I'm going to tell you how 167 men conquered an empire of 24 million. And then things that no one has ever told, things to make you groan and cry out I'm lying. Perhaps I am. The air of Peru is cold and sour like in a vault, and wits turn easier here even than in Europe. But grant me this. I saw him closer than anyone and had cause only to love him. He was my altar, my bright image of salvation, Francisco Pizarro. And the only wish of my life is that I'd never seen him. So that is the beginning of Peter Schaffer's play The Royal Hunt of the Sun. It was written for the National Theatre in 1964. So an English play, which is why that Spanish soldier has an English accent, just for people who are wondering. And The Royal Hunt of the Sun was then made into a Hollywood film. And it starred Robert Shaw as Francisco Pizarro or Dominic as Hispano-Fars would call him Francisco.

Speaker 2:
[03:40] Very good, Tom. Very nice.

Speaker 1:
[03:41] But we're going to call him Francisco Pizarro in this. And also very improbably, coming off the Sound of Music, Christopher Plummer as Atahualpa, the great Inca. And it has to be said that he has a much deeper tattum and a much smoother chest than he had in The Sound of Music. And it is actually quite shocking to think that from that film, which came out in 1969, he would go on to play the Duke of Wellington in Waterloo, which came out the following year. So slightly mind boggling. But listen, we're not talking about films because this series is going to be one of the most epic, one of the most astonishing we've ever done. And it tells the story of one of the most extraordinary episodes in the whole of world history, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[04:25] Yes. So the exoticism and the drama of the story captured by that play, which is a brilliant play by the way. So this is the story of the conquest of the empire of the Incas, an empire that stretched from north to south some 2,500 miles. It was the longest empire in history, and it ruled millions of people, probably not 24 million as they claim in the play, but still a lot. And it's conquered by a few hundred Spanish conquistadors. So fewer than 200 really. It's an adventure story with an amazing range of characters. So two of them you've mentioned, the doomed Emperor Atahualpa played by Christopher Plummer and the man in that reading, the illiterate Spanish buccaneer, Francisco Pizarro. But it's one of these hinge moments in world history. It's a landmark in the story of colonialism and actually it's, I sort of thought of this as the third part of a trilogy. So in February, 2023, we did a series about Columbus' voyages to the Caribbean. That was episode 306 onwards. They love us to give the numbers, Tom. Then in the autumn of 2023, we did an epic series, at that time our longest, about the fall of the Aztecs, the conquest of Mexico. That was number 385 onwards.

Speaker 1:
[05:35] We've said that the conquest of Peru is one of the most extraordinary stories ever told. But I mean, the mad thing is, is that the conquest of Mexico is as well.

Speaker 2:
[05:44] Yeah. And this is the sequel really. I mean, it really is the sequel because everybody who's taking part in this adventure has that model in their minds.

Speaker 1:
[05:53] So what would you call it? Alien Contact 2?

Speaker 2:
[05:56] Yes, I guess so. It's the return of the king to the two towers of the Fall of the Aztecs.

Speaker 1:
[06:01] And the amazing thing about this is, it's one of those sequels that is just as good as the prequel.

Speaker 2:
[06:05] Definitely it is. Definitely. So we're a few years after the Fall of the Aztecs. We'll be telling the story of Pizarro's first expeditions in the 1520s, his arrival in Peru in 1532, the capture and murder of the Inca Emperor Atahualpa, the battle for the Inca capital of Cusco, the flight of the Incas into the jungle, and the story of the legendary city of Vilcabamba, which was the last refuge, the lost refuge actually of the last Incas. So it's a very, very melodramatic story. We shouldn't waste any more time before plunging right in. And maybe Tom, we should start with our protagonist. So that's the man that Martin, who you voiced so splendidly, is talking about in that introduction. And this is the conquistador who changed the lives of millions of people, Francisco Pizarro. Yeah, and we will, as in the Aztec series, we will be trying to reflect the linguistic diversity of the newly united Spain by doing a huge range of Spanish accents from different regions.

Speaker 1:
[07:04] And pronunciations.

Speaker 2:
[07:06] There will be no internal consistency, but a word of warning for our American listeners, we will not be pronouncing them in the strange way that you do. So you just have to suck that up. Right, so Pizarro, hero, villain, is for the listeners to decide. He is born in 1478 or so, in a place called Trujillo, in Extremadura, which is the kind of world west of Spain.

Speaker 1:
[07:27] Has a lot of stalks.

Speaker 2:
[07:29] Yes, exactly. A lot of castles, it's sun bleached, it's a very poor country, very violent bandits.

Speaker 1:
[07:35] Spaghetti western, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[07:36] Spaghetti western territory, yes. It's kind of a place that basically you leave if you want to be successful. Which is why so many of the conquistadors, Enan Cortez and Francisco Pizarro most famously came from Extramadura.

Speaker 1:
[07:50] And you can leave because it is a land that breeds tough men.

Speaker 2:
[07:53] So Francisco is the illegitimate son of an infantry officer who belonged to the minor nobility and his mother was a servant girl with whom this infantry officer had had a liaison. She brought him up. He never learns, so he's very unlike Enan Cortez, he never learns to read and write. Later on, people would say to mock him that he was a former pig herder. He'd herded pigs in the fields, which is perfectly plausible because there's lots of pigs in Extremadura that are famous for its ham. But he seems to have been welcome at the Pizarro family mansion in the town square. And there, very probably, he first met a distant cousin, a much younger boy called Enan Cortez, whose mother was a Pizarro and was from the Pizarro clan. In the late 1490s, when he was in his teens, he may have gone with his father to fight in the wars in Italy. Can't be sure, but if he did, he didn't stay there for long. Because if you're from extra madura, if you're keen to seek your fortune, in the 1490s, a much more exciting and lucrative place has just opened up. When Pizarro was 14 years old in 1492, Columbus first sailed to the New World. And when he is 17 years old, so in 1495, the Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella basically scrap Columbus' monopoly and open up the Indies to any Spaniard who will pay them a share of the profits. So this is now the kind of gold rush, as it were, is on. And by the end of the 15th century, hundreds of Spaniards, people from Pizarro's kind of background are seeking their fortune on Hispaniola and on Cuba and on the other Caribbean islands. And Pizarro is one of them. He actually went before Cortes did. He landed on Hispaniola in 1502. And he became a soldier and he made a name for himself as a man who will do what needs to be done. And basically doing what needs to be done is massacring the local people, the Tainos.

Speaker 1:
[09:49] I mean, just to add a kind of interesting detail on that, that there's going to be a lot of massacring coming. But a person who sailed with him on that expedition to Hispaniola was Bartholomew de las Casas. The man who in due course will become the great spokesman of the rights of the native peoples in America. And that is going to be an enduring tension throughout the course of Spanish history in the New World in the 16th century, which we should not forget about.

Speaker 2:
[10:17] I think as with the Aztec series, if you just think of the Spanish as blood soaked, greedy, that's not quite right. They were always arguing about what to do, but also they're a huge theme of this series as it was in the previous one. They're very legalistic. They're always arguing about the sort of legal ramifications of what they're doing, and they're always traveling with notaries and stuff.

Speaker 1:
[10:36] And this whole kind of mad thing where they have to read out a statement inviting the Native Americans to become Christians and submit to the Spanish King, which obviously is gibberish to the people who are listening to it, but that is going to be an ongoing theme, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[10:49] Now, a big theme of the Conquistadors' experience was that so many of them, this is the age of printed books, so many of them arrive in the New World with their heads full of chivalric fantasies. They are expecting to fight monsters and rescue maidens and they are very excited at the thought of adventure. Pizarro, of course, is different. He may know of such things, but he has never read one and he never will because he still can't read and write. And actually some historians and indeed some Spanish chroniclers who later very harsh about him treat him as an illiterate thug. I think that's a little bit harsh. I think he's a much more straightforward man than Cortes. Cortes was very feline, wasn't he? He was vulpine.

Speaker 1:
[11:28] Yeah, he was very Machiavellian.

Speaker 2:
[11:29] Yeah. Pizarro is not a Machiavellian. He's a strong man. He's a big bloke. He's very tough. Everyone says he's daring. He's more conservative than Cortes. So he wears black and austere, kind of black and white costume, which he wears all his life.

Speaker 1:
[11:44] Like Philip the Second. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[11:46] His pleasures are simple, plain bowls, kind of ballgames.

Speaker 1:
[11:50] Do you think the kind of sense of him as an illiterate thug is reflecting class bias then on the part of chroniclers who despise him for his illiteracy?

Speaker 2:
[11:58] Yes, a little bit, a little bit. And there's so much feuding that once people have fallen out with Pizarro, they say, oh, you're a former pig herder. You can't even read. You're just a bruiser. All of this. But actually at the time, his men generally saw him as quite an easygoing, I mean, definitely the Tainas didn't, but his men saw him as an easygoing kind of chap. So one of the things about the conquest of the Incas, a lot of the conquistadors wrote memoirs about their time in Peru. And of course, those memoirs may be fictionalized or may be distorted. But there are really interesting kind of insights into what went on.

Speaker 1:
[12:31] And I mean, you have a kind of critical mass of accounts, you guess. I mean, they can't all just be made up, right?

Speaker 2:
[12:38] No. So one Spanish chronicler and one memoir said, he was a good companion without any vanity or pomposity. A later chronicler who was actually half Inca called Garth Ilazo, said he was kindly and gentle by nature and never said a hard word of anyone. I mean, how kindly and gentle Pizarro was, we shall discover. He is a soldier's son from a very violent part of Spain. It is a very violent business. And Pizarro, as we will find out, will do whatever it takes and he will kill whomever he needs to kill in order to get out on top.

Speaker 1:
[13:12] There is your shout line for the film. He will kill whoever he must to come out on top.

Speaker 2:
[13:17] Okay. Wow. That that's yeah. I mean, I can see it now. Who is he played by? Robert Shaw. I mean, I like Robert Shaw as an actor. So for the next 20 years or so, he's in the Caribbean. He's a pretty obscure figure. So we talked in the Columbus and Aztec series about the conquistadors and how they operated these chains of conquest. They would basically have rival networks of entrepreneurial kind of free-booters and adventurers and whatnot, who would be engaged in island hopping across the Caribbean, getting closer and closer to the American mainland. And obviously, the most celebrated of all these networks, of all these operations, is Cortez's, when Cortez went from Cuba to Mexico and then from there into Central America. Pizarro joins a different company from his cousins, a company operating much further south, and they're basically hacking their way through the jungles of Central America and Panama and stuff.

Speaker 1:
[14:07] Which is lacking in the kind of splendid civilizations that Cortez finds. So there is a slight sense that there's kind of a bit of luck, isn't there?

Speaker 2:
[14:14] Completely. It's like you're venture capitalists and you're investing in tech firms, and some of them will pay off and some of them won't, and Pizarro's has not really paid off. That said, he's part of the group that become the first Europeans to lay eyes upon the Pacific.

Speaker 1:
[14:27] Yeah, so not stout Cortez, as John Keats said. Got it wrong.

Speaker 2:
[14:31] No, it's Balboa. Vasco Núñez de Balboa, who's the first who leads that operation. And here's a very good example of how the conquistadors' lives work. Pizarro is standing with him when they look out on the waters of the Pacific. And six years later, it is Pizarro who arrests Balboa and brings him for execution in Panama because of the endemic feuding that is always tearing the conquistadors apart. So they're basically always worried that, you know, you can team up with somebody and go on some amazing expedition and risk your life and what not. And three years later, that person will sink a knife into your back and steal your money. Or you'll be involved in 20 years worth of lawsuits in Spain.

Speaker 1:
[15:12] Or you'll die of some hideous disease in the jungle.

Speaker 2:
[15:15] All of these things will happen in this series. So if we fast forward now to the beginning of the 1520s, Pizarro, who is now in his early 40s, has settled in the boom town of Panama City. So Panama City is booming, but it's a kind of pretty rough. It's a kind of place of pub brawls and stuff. Star Wars bar, the cantina in Star Wars, exactly. Pizarro has done pretty well for himself. He has his own estate, which is called an encomienda, which comes with a grant of indigenous laborers, who basically is as close to slave laborers as you can get really. But Pizarro is restless. And the puzzle for historians is working out why he's so restless. Because at this age, in your early 40s, most conquistadors say, that's it now. I'm not trudging through jungles with loads of leeches again. I've had enough. I've made a little bit of money.

Speaker 1:
[16:01] Is it his pothos?

Speaker 2:
[16:02] Yeah, like Alexander.

Speaker 1:
[16:03] Alexander the Great style yearning. I mean, I suppose because he's illiterate. He doesn't have that kind of massive Alexander the Great vibe.

Speaker 2:
[16:10] I think actually the pothos, I think you're underrating it, Tom. Pizarro has quite modest personal tastes. He's not a man given to luxury. He's not a man given to display. He looks quite conservative. He's not married. He doesn't have children. So it's not like he's interested in piling up gold for his descendants.

Speaker 1:
[16:31] He has a yearning.

Speaker 2:
[16:32] Yeah, a thirst to make a name for himself, a thirst for glory.

Speaker 1:
[16:35] And maybe that's the subtitle of the film.

Speaker 2:
[16:38] It is. And he will gamble in the next seven years. His health is his life. And most importantly for a conquistador, all his money on a pursuit of, well, this is the mystery. What? What does he really think he's after? And the truth is he doesn't know. In 1522, so this is just a couple of years after Cortez had arrived in Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztecs. In 1522, further south, a Basque called Pasquale de Andegoya had sailed southwest from Panama. Tabby was very anxious that people understand the geography, because we're not The Rest is Geography, but we like to dabble in it from time to time. So, Pasquale de Andegoya had gone southwest from Panama. So that's basically down the Pacific side of the top of South America. What is now Colombia? And he had gone along the coast of Colombia. And he was gone for ages. People thought he'd vanished. And then he returned and he said, I've been in the jungle in Colombia. And there are people there. There's not much there. But people say further south, there is this land called Biru. And Biru, they say, is a rich and powerful empire. Maybe as rich as Mexico.

Speaker 1:
[17:49] And Dominic, just to ask, there have been no contacts between the Aztecs and the Incas, have there? And the geography is just too impenetrable and impossible.

Speaker 2:
[17:59] As we will discover when we get to the Incas, they've basically been living in a vacuum.

Speaker 1:
[18:03] Yeah, because they're geographically bound in by sea and mountains and jungle and all kinds of things. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[18:08] Exactly. So Pizarro in Panama City, you know, imagine him in his canteen surrounded by aliens. He says, oh, I like the sound of this. And this is the dream that he will chase. So in the summer of 1524, he forms a partnership with two friends from Panama City. One of them is a priest called Hernando de Luque, who dabbles in business and has borrowed some money from a judge. And the other, a very important person in this story in all six episodes, is an old comrade of Pizarro's called Diego de Almagro. And he's from rural New Castile. He's a little bit older than Pizarro. He's also legitimate. He's also illiterate. No, he can't read. And he's another very hard man. People said his body was covered with scars from fighting. But he's literally more colourful than Pizarro. He wears very colourful clothes. And to read you, because it's important to get all these people in their heads. One chronicler said of Almagro, He was a man of short stature with ugly features, but with great courage and endurance. He was generous, but was conceited and was given to boasting, letting his tongue run on sometimes without stop. So short, he's ugly, he's very brave, and he's boastful. And he's always talking about himself.

Speaker 1:
[19:19] I mean, this is the film is just writing itself, isn't it? There'd be so many actors, he'd want to play that part.

Speaker 2:
[19:24] Well, not nice because he and Pizarro at this point are great mates. And spoiler alert, it will not last.

Speaker 1:
[19:31] Not for long. No honor among thieves.

Speaker 2:
[19:35] So in November 1524, they set off in three small ships down the Pacific coast of Columbia. So this is the top left of South America. And this is not a success at all, this voyage. The weather's really bad. They put ashore. They get into a fight with some villagers who've got spears and bows and arrows. Our magro loses an eye. So this is great now because we can picture him with an eye patch. I don't think he did wear an eye patch, but I think for the purposes of the film.

Speaker 1:
[20:01] What, so he just had a horrid kind of bleeding sore?

Speaker 2:
[20:04] I think so, yeah. Oh, great. I think for Hollywood purposes, the eye patch is important.

Speaker 1:
[20:09] Who would play him?

Speaker 2:
[20:10] Joe Pesky? I'm thinking the bloke who was Gimli. John Rhys Davies, a Welshman. Yeah, more Welsh history and The Rest Is History too much.

Speaker 1:
[20:19] Okay, so he's either Gimli or Joe Pesky.

Speaker 2:
[20:21] I think Gimli. I think Gennem is Gimli. We still haven't cast Pizarro, but we can work on that during the course of the series. Anyway, they go back to Panama. Pizarro is undeterred. He raises more money. In March 1526, he and El Magro set off again with two small ships, and this voyage will become one of the most celebrated voyages in Spanish history. They go south down the coast of Colombia. That's sort of western coast. When they get to the San Juan River, Pizarro goes ashore in camps, El Magro goes back to Panama to get reinforcements, and they pilot. So the guy who's basically piloting the ships, who's a guy called Bartolome Ruiz. He says, I'll take the ships on a little bit, scout on south to see what's there while you guys do what you're doing. Ruiz crosses the equator, and then once he's crossed the equator on the horizon, he sees a ship, and it's basically a raft. It's an ocean-going raft, like the Contiki, with cotton sails, and he captures this ship. A lot of its people sort of jump overboard and stuff to escape him, but not all of them. He can't believe what he finds on this raft, because as he reports in a letter to Charles V of Spain, it's full of gold and silver ornaments, crowns and diadems, belts and bracelets, tweezers and rattles and strings, and clusters of beads and rubies, mirrors and cups and other drinking vessels, tweezers. Tweezers, tweezers and mirrors.

Speaker 1:
[21:42] Brilliant, tweezers. The king will be thrilled to have some tweezers.

Speaker 2:
[21:46] Golden... Very odd, mate.

Speaker 1:
[21:51] Maisel hair clippers.

Speaker 2:
[21:54] Dental floss thing.

Speaker 1:
[21:55] Dental floss. Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[21:57] Anyway, they've got all this stuff on the boat. And these blokes on the boat were taking this to trade, all this gold to trade, unbelievably, for brightly coloured fish shells, which they would use as counters.

Speaker 1:
[22:08] So this is effectively money.

Speaker 2:
[22:10] Yeah. But what this tells Ruiz is that, you know, to trade this for a load of shells means that the people with the gold must have an awful lot of it because they don't prize it that highly. Anyway, for Pizarro and Co, this is tremendous news. This is so exciting because this means there clearly is an advanced civilisation if they're making golden tweezers.

Speaker 1:
[22:29] And they've got loads of loads of golden rubies and stuff.

Speaker 2:
[22:33] Exactly. Ruiz keeps three of the blokes on the raft on afterwards to train as interpreters. And actually, throughout this whole story, there are clearly going to be people interpreting the whole time. And we know virtually nothing about them. And the one thing we do know actually is the Spanish, unlike in the story of the Aztecs, the Spanish spends a lot of time complaining that their interpreters are useless and they're mistranslating what is being said.

Speaker 1:
[22:58] Because there's no equivalent of Malinche.

Speaker 2:
[23:00] There's no Malinche, no.

Speaker 1:
[23:01] Cortez's girlfriend, who for very complicated reasons can speak all these various languages. But there isn't an equivalent of that in this story.

Speaker 2:
[23:09] No, there isn't. There are just generic people who keep getting the Spanish themselves, get them mixed up as we shall see. But the Spanish do say, and in fact, the Incas later say, God, your interpreters are absolutely useless.

Speaker 1:
[23:20] Well, I mean, I don't think you can blame them because they're having to learn a completely new language. And how can they be sure that the language is properly spoken?

Speaker 2:
[23:28] Yeah, true. I mean, I just think the interpreters should do their job, but I have high expectations. Anyway, Ruiz the pilot goes back to the camp and he sees Pizarro and Almagro turns up from Panama and they're all delighted by the news of the gold. He's the Welsh guy. Almagro is the guy with the eyepatch. And Almagro says, look, I'll take some of this gold back to Panama. I'll get more recruits. Why don't you guys keep going? See what you can find. So they go on and they decide their rendezvous on this deserted island called the Isla de Gallo, which is on the border roughly between Colombia and Ecuador. So, we're now going down the west coast of South America. So Pizarro and Co go to this island. Almagro goes back to Panama to take the gold back and to get more recruits. When Almagro gets back to Panama, the governor of Panama says, this is mad. I'm not giving you more people. This is a fool's errand.

Speaker 1:
[24:20] But what about the rubies and the gold?

Speaker 2:
[24:22] Yeah, he sees that, but he just thinks it's maybe a one-off. It's maybe a one-off. But also, you know, the weather, the malaria, you know, we've got stuff going on in Central America that we're busy doing. I'm not throwing more men off, you know, more men off, good money after bad, as it were. Now, meanwhile, Pizarro and the men on this desert islands, the Isla de Gallo, they're having a dreadful time. They run out of food. They're living off like rotten shellfish. Mosquitoes are eating them alive. They've all got dysentery, all of this kind of thing. Eventually, they see ships coming towards them. And Pizarro says, oh, brilliant, these are the reinforcements. These are the new recruits. The ships arrive, and actually, the people on the ships say, no, no, we've come to take you back home. You're going back to Panama. Pizarro is gutted. He's furious. And this incredibly famous scene in Spanish history. He draws his sword. He gets all his men onto the beach, the men who haven't died of dysentery. And he draws a line in the sand of the beach. And he has this fantastic speech. Comrades and friends, on one side lies comfort. On the other lies death, hardship, hunger, nakedness, rain and abandonment. On that side, you return to Panama to be poor. On the other, you go to Peru and become rich. The choice is yours.

Speaker 1:
[25:44] It's very like when I phoned you to ask if you would like to do a podcast.

Speaker 2:
[25:48] Got it. He drew a line in the sand and said, on that side is comfort, on the other is golden tweezers. Oh my goodness, rain and abandonment.

Speaker 1:
[26:00] And so only 12 crossed, don't they?

Speaker 2:
[26:02] Only 12 men crossed.

Speaker 1:
[26:04] And one of them is a very cool guy who's a Greek, who's come from Crete.

Speaker 2:
[26:08] Pedro de Candia.

Speaker 1:
[26:09] Pedro de Candia, who's an expert in artillery and firearms. And I just mentioned that, artillery and firearms, you know, for no particular reason. I mean, it may not have an impact later on in the plot.

Speaker 2:
[26:19] Pedro de Candia is a giant. So the giant Greek and 11 other blokes crossed to Pizarro's side of the line. The rest of them get back on the ship and go to Panama. And for the next few months, Pizarro and these men who become immortalized in Spanish paintings and Spanish literature later on as the famous 13 or the immortal 13, they stay on this desert island. And they're almost doing it out of stubbornness because it's not like they're going to go anywhere.

Speaker 1:
[26:45] Are they becoming good mates as a result of this? Are they getting on each other's nerves? Are they a band of brothers? What effect do you think it has on them?

Speaker 2:
[26:52] I think it probably does create a band of brothers thing, because a lot of these people will carry on with Pizarro.

Speaker 1:
[26:57] Because that's the striking thing, isn't it? That they really do stick together.

Speaker 2:
[27:00] Yeah, they're all in now. They can't back out because they'd look like fools. They'd look like absolute idiots. They stay on this desert island, Pizarro becoming increasingly emaciated. And then at last, the pilot Ruiz comes back with a ship and says, the governor of Panama said, you know, enough, come home now. You've made your point. And basically no one's going to come and join you. So very despondently, they get on the ships and Pizarro says, before we go home, could we just take one last look south? Can we just have a look and see what's around the headland or whatever? So they go on and they go into the Gulf of Guayaquil, which is where Peru and Ecuador meets, so southern Ecuador, northern Peru. And there they see a town on the coast, which they end up calling Tombez. And they go near the town. Two of Pizarro's men go ashore with presence of... The ship clearly has brought them some foods. They've got pigs and chickens. They go ashore with the presence of the pigs and the chickens, and the locals are delighted.

Speaker 1:
[27:59] So they're not frightened by these pigs. I think if you've never seen a pig before, it'd be unsettling.

Speaker 2:
[28:04] They don't seem unsettled. They seem delighted. They probably make a nice ham sandwich out of it or something. Anyway, the two blokes come back onto the boat, and they say, oh my god, this is what we wanted. This is a proper civilization. These blokes have pots. They have nice clothes. They have chiefs and they talk about a king far away. And best of all, they have very fancy temples decorated with silver and gold.

Speaker 1:
[28:30] Ka-ching.

Speaker 2:
[28:30] Yeah, Pizarro is thinking brilliant. So Pizarro has what he needs. He's got the ship, the evidence of the ship with the tweezers. He's got the evidence of the town where they welcome the arrival of a pig and they've got temples with gold. And he says, great. And what's more, they pick up from this town, they're either given or they capture two local boys who they call Martinio and Felipeio, like little Philip or little Martin. And these boys, they're gonna train as interpreters to add to the ones they've got already. And these boys will play a big part in this story.

Speaker 1:
[29:03] Cause they've grown up actually pretty good, right?

Speaker 2:
[29:05] Yeah, well better than the rest. The Spanish keep mixing them up. So in the Chronicles, the Chronicles always disagree whether it's Martinio or Philipio who's translating. But in a way, they've got translators and the language. Of course, the Spanish don't know what the language is, but the language that they are translating to and from is a language called Quechua, which is a very big Andean language. So Pizarro goes back to Panama and he meets his business partners and he says, look, we've obviously got a lot of potential here for another expedition, but we need to get royal approval because we don't want to go down, find stuff and then have competitors come down with royal approval to sort of take all the treasure.

Speaker 1:
[29:45] So it's that legalistic side again.

Speaker 2:
[29:46] Exactly. So in 1529 in the spring, Pizarro goes back to Spain and he goes to see the King of Spain, the Emperor Charles V, who's in Toledo in the center of Spain. Now Charles V is a very, very busy man. He's the King of Spain, he's the head of the House of Habsburg, he's the Holy Roman Emperor. He is currently fighting two very expensive wars. One is against the French in Italy and the other is against the Ottomans in Eastern Europe. So what he wants more than anything is gold and silver from the new world. And Pizarro says to him, your majesty, you know, I've heard that this place Biru is brilliant. I've not been there, but I've heard very good things. They have golden tweezers. They have lovely pots. They have nice clothes. All of this.

Speaker 1:
[30:36] Give you, your majesty, a pot.

Speaker 2:
[30:39] But Charles loves a pot. If he can melt it down into money for his wars. Now as luck would have it, also in Toledo at the court visiting, with the loads of gifts for the royal family, is Hernán Cortés. He's making one of his periodic returns from Mexico.

Speaker 1:
[30:54] Is this where he turns up with loads of Aztec mime artists for the Pope? Their bodies are their tools.

Speaker 2:
[30:59] Is he not always travelling with indigenous people? Well anyway, Cortes has gone down an absolute storm. And because of that, people are very well inclined to the idea of, oh there's another Mexico further south. Well brilliant. So in July 1529, the Council of the Indies, which is based in Seville, authorises Pizarro to conduct the discovery and conquest and settlement of the province of Peru. And they say to him, you will be the first governor, you will be its first captain general. If you find it, we will give you a massive salary for life. Actually double the salary that's given to Cortes in Mexico. So he's got a really good deal out of it.

Speaker 1:
[31:35] It's kind of a franchising.

Speaker 2:
[31:37] Yeah, it's a franchise. He's got the franchise.

Speaker 1:
[31:39] Pizarro has to put up the capital and take the risk, but he has the brand name.

Speaker 2:
[31:43] Exactly. There was one catch. When he got the franchise, he accidentally forgot to get a good deal for his business partner.

Speaker 1:
[31:52] Oh no, the Welsh guy.

Speaker 2:
[31:53] Yeah, this is how it works. So the guy with only one eye, Diego de Almagro, he's going to be his reward. Well, Pizarro has a massive salary and is governor and captain general. Almagro has been rewarded with the title of Commandant of the town of Tombez, which is markedly inferior. So he's not going to be happy at all when Pizarro gets back, as we will discover. Anyway, Pizarro goes back from Seville to the New World, January 1530. He's picked up about 200 recruits from his native extra-madura by and large, including six Dominican friars.

Speaker 1:
[32:28] And Dominic, would one of those friars be called Valverde?

Speaker 2:
[32:32] He is called Valverde, yeah. The Valverde clan will play an important part in this story.

Speaker 1:
[32:36] Maybe a doctor of theology.

Speaker 2:
[32:38] It's a long time since we had a Valverde on the show. And long-standing listeners will record that when a Valverde appears on The Rest Is History, all kinds of things will follow.

Speaker 1:
[32:47] Good times follow.

Speaker 2:
[32:49] Good times follow, exactly. So there's this guy, Valverde, who will be playing an important part, and there's the three Pizarro brothers. So of these three brothers, they will return in later episodes. So get them, remember that they're there. There's the youngest who is called, I mean, actually, there's so much disagreement about what order they're in, how old they are and whatnot, but this is what I've decided. Juan is the youngest. He's maybe 19 or so. And everyone said he's very impetuous, he's gallant, he's young, he's dashing, all of this. Then there is Gonzalo. Gonzalo is the middle one. Maybe he's about 20. He's very friendly and easygoing. He was full of nobility and virtue and was beloved and respected by everyone, says the chronicler, Garth Hilarzo.

Speaker 1:
[33:31] He's the kind of noble one. Juan is the kind of the young scamp.

Speaker 2:
[33:36] Yeah. What's he like? Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[33:39] And then the third one, what's he like?

Speaker 2:
[33:40] He's the oldest and he's Hernando. Now Hernando, big figure in this story. He's the only one who's legitimate. The others are all legitimate. One Spanish chronicle describes him thus, a tall, heavy man with thick lips and a thick tongue. And the tip of his nose was fleshy and inflamed. A great and boastful talker.

Speaker 1:
[34:01] So Martin Clunes?

Speaker 2:
[34:03] Yeah. He doesn't sound like a massive looker. But everyone said he was kind of charismatic, charming, impressive. Yeah, big bloke. He's got military experience because he definitely has served in Italy against the French. And he will end up being Francisco's closest confidant, his chief advisor, Hernando.

Speaker 1:
[34:21] And is there a sense that Italy is where you earn your spurs? That's the kind of cutting edge of military technology.

Speaker 2:
[34:28] Exactly. Where the Spanish troops are regarded as some of the best in the world, by the way. So by 1530, they're all back in Panama and Pizarro is planning a new expedition. He does have one problem. His business partner, Diego de Almagro, is absolutely outraged that Pizarro has returned and got in this terrible deal. And Pizarro says, look, listen, when we've got Peru, there must be something underneath it to the south, and you can have that and that's what's going to become Chile. So Almagro will go off later on to Chile.

Speaker 1:
[35:00] But that isn't legally stamped, is it? So he doesn't have kind of letters, patent from the king or anything?

Speaker 2:
[35:05] No, no, no. And actually, their relationship now is a bit broken and it'll never be the same again. And this will run right through this story.

Speaker 1:
[35:12] I can see why.

Speaker 2:
[35:13] Yeah, of course, he's really sold him out. He's completely sold him out. And it's worse because Hernando, Pizarro's brother, absolutely despises Almagro. Anyway, spoiler alert, this is the beginning of a feud that will destroy all these people. Anyway, 27th of September, 1530, Pizarro sets sail from Panama and is bound for Peru. He's got three ships and 180 men and a load of horses, 37 horses. Now a crucial point, Almagro makes the same mistake again. He says, I'll raise more men in Panama and I will follow later. I'll join you later. This is maybe because he's a bit cautious and he wants to find out how things are going to turn out before he risks his life.

Speaker 1:
[36:00] I assume that he doesn't feel quite the blood brother with Pizarro now, and so doesn't feel that they're in it together to the same degree, I suppose.

Speaker 2:
[36:09] I would guess so. But as we will discover, this is going to have massive consequences. A lot of people will die because of this. Pizarro and Coast sail off down the Pacific Coast. The weather is against them this time, so they have to make landfall much earlier than they planned in what's now the far north of Ecuador. If you look at a map, that top left corner of South America, from there, they start to march down the coast. It's very miserable. There's loads of mosquitoes. They're hungry. Pizarro, everyone says, does really well. He's brave. He's big. When they're crossing a river, he will help to carry the sick across on his back, all of this kind of thing. He leads from the front. I mean, whatever else you say about him, he's genuinely brave and he's got tremendous stamina and all this stuff.

Speaker 1:
[36:51] And concern for his men.

Speaker 2:
[36:52] And concern for his men. They reach their first settlement, a town called Coaque in February 1531. They find a load of huts. They find a load of very baffled villages and they find a load of emeralds and gold and silver. So Pizarro shares a lot of it out. And then weirdly, he hangs around in this place, which doesn't sound that thrilling, for about six months. They all come down with the disease. This may be actually, I mean, they come in and disease because they've hung around, but it may explain why they hang around afterwards. They come out of the horrible disease called Carrion's disease, where you get these massive warts that then bleed, separating warts.

Speaker 1:
[37:32] Do they stay with you or do they heal?

Speaker 2:
[37:34] No, I think they eventually, I mean, if you Google it, you won't forget it. So don't Google it is all I say. Now everyone will Google it, of course. Tom's Googling it as we speak. He can't wait to see all those photographs of people's bleeding warts.

Speaker 1:
[37:46] Oh my God.

Speaker 2:
[37:48] You finally seen the Carrion's Disease.

Speaker 1:
[37:52] Guys, whatever you do, do not Google Carrion's Disease warts.

Speaker 2:
[37:55] Yeah, it's not good.

Speaker 1:
[37:56] Horrible.

Speaker 2:
[37:57] So now word is spreading about these bearded men who came in floating houses. Classic thing like we had with the conquest of Mexico. More reinforcements eventually arrived from Central America, from Panama. Almagro is still not among them. He's still waiting to find out what's going to happen. So eventually Pizarro sets off again. He crosses the equator. He's now going through fields of cultivated maize, what our American listeners would call corn. This implies a high level of social organization. There's farming going on here. People need some form of social order for that to happen. The interpreters are reporting to the Spanish that people are talking about an empire further south, and also they're talking about a war. But no one really knows what that is. That is intriguing. South of Guayaquil in Ecuador, big city today, they reach a large island called Puna. And here, the locals are not so friendly. They stage a massive dance to trick the Spanish and then turn on them. But of course, the Spanish theme of this series, they have their steel swords against which, you know, there can be no resistance. And they're able to overcome the locals.

Speaker 1:
[39:06] Do they have horses?

Speaker 2:
[39:08] They do have horses. They've got about 38, 37 horses. Again, which absolutely terrify the people of South America. As we will see again and again, you can turn up with two or three horses and hundreds and you can defeat hundreds of people, thousands of people, because they're so frightened of the horses.

Speaker 1:
[39:23] Because all these rumors start to spread, don't they, that they, they eat people.

Speaker 2:
[39:28] My favourite to all the rumors is that it was widely believed that Spanish are incapable of walking uphill. That that was what the horses were for.

Speaker 1:
[39:34] That's why they had the horses for.

Speaker 2:
[39:35] Exactly. So some more people, more reinforcements arrive among a character who will play a part in the story, a knight from Spain, from Extra Madura, called Hernando de Soto.

Speaker 1:
[39:47] Oh, big news in Florida in due course.

Speaker 2:
[39:50] Yes, he will come to Rostecan in Florida. De Soto is 32 years old. He's another very short man. There's a lot of short people in the story, but he has won a reputation in Central America as a very dashing and brave horseman. That's his great skill. He's like a sort of the person who would be very good at dressage or some such.

Speaker 1:
[40:07] Nice. He'd win gold with Princess Anne.

Speaker 2:
[40:09] He would. He'd be great powers of Princess Anne actually. Is he posh? He's a knight. He's an Hildalgo.

Speaker 1:
[40:16] Okay. So he is.

Speaker 2:
[40:17] Exactly.

Speaker 1:
[40:17] He's one of those kind of menacing posh people. I wouldn't get on that horse if I were you.

Speaker 2:
[40:24] Yeah. He's a young Charles Dance. That's exactly what he is. So Pizarro says to Soto, right, you can be one of my chief lieutenants. Actually, when we get to Peru, the capital, you can be the lieutenant governor of the capital city. And Soto says, brilliant, I can't wait. We shall see how this promise works out.

Speaker 1:
[40:40] I say.

Speaker 2:
[40:41] Now inching closer to this mysterious empire, there's about 400 of them now. So they get some rafts, they cross from this island that they've been on back to the mainland and to the town of Tombez that they had visited before. Now they'd seen the temples, if you recall, they'd seen the people's nice clothes, they'd seen all this. But when they get to the town, they can't believe it. Because the buildings are all ruined, the streets are deserted, the temples have been looted.

Speaker 1:
[41:10] What's happened?

Speaker 2:
[41:11] Yeah, something apocalyptic. Lesoto goes ahead to find out what's going on. He finds the local chief across the river, he brings them back to Pizarro, and the chief says, he doesn't really fill them in on what's happened, but he says, there's a much greater chief who lives far away, and this greater chief lives in a town with gold and silver jugs, and houses and temples walled and roofed with gold.

Speaker 1:
[41:34] I say.

Speaker 2:
[41:36] And Pizarro thinks, wow, this is looking good. They continue on. The next place they get to is a little town called Poechos, and here the local chief is friendly. He gives them food, and he adds a little bit more detail about what's been happening. He says, I too answer to this great chief, the emperor, and the emperor's rule extends for thousands of miles north to south. But, he says, the old emperor has died and his two sons have been fighting for control of this empire, of a civilisation that up till now has been totally unknown to the outside world. And the local people call this civilisation Tawantinsuyu, the land of the four quarters, but Tom, we know it as the Empire of the Incas.

Speaker 1:
[42:25] And so, the Incas enter the chat. And we will find out what they have to say for themselves after the break. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money.

Speaker 2:
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Speaker 1:
[44:26] Hello, everyone. Massive excitement because we have an update on The Rest Is History Festival. We can finally start revealing some of the massive A-list names that we have joining us at that festival at Hampton Court.

Speaker 2:
[44:44] Yes, so in case you missed it, on the 4th and 5th of July this year, we will be hosting the inaugural Rest Is History Festival at of all places, Hampton Court Palace. And this is a festival exclusively for members of the Rest Is History Club.

Speaker 1:
[45:00] That's right, Dominic. And as I mentioned, we have some huge names coming. So I will be joined by Mary Beard to talk about What Else, Rome. And I will also be joined by friend of the show, Ali Ansari, to talk about What Else, Persia.

Speaker 2:
[45:15] Yes. And I'll be talking to two other people who've been on the Rest Is History, great fan favourites. One of them is the brilliant Tracy Borman, who will be joining us to talk about the secrets of the Tudors. And the other, another massive fan favourite is Katja Heuer, who will be talking about her new work on Weimar Germany. So we will let you know who else is joining us in the next episode, but rest assured, it is shaping up to be a brilliant, brilliant weekend in the most magnificent and historic setting imaginable.

Speaker 1:
[45:46] And remember, this festival is exclusively for our members. So if you are a friend of the show, then you can enter the ballot for two tickets. If however, you are part of the elite Athelstan band, then you are absolutely guaranteed, yes folks, guaranteed access to two tickets.

Speaker 2:
[46:07] Now you'll receive all the details via email, but if you want more information about the festival or about the ballot, then just click on the links in the episode description.

Speaker 1:
[46:17] So if you're not a member, then what on earth are you waiting for? Sign up now at therestishistory.com and you don't just of course get access to the Rest Is History Festival, you get access to a host of supplementary benefits as well.

Speaker 2:
[46:34] Genuinely, we cannot wait to see you there.

Speaker 1:
[46:42] Hello everyone and welcome back to The Rest Is History. It is the autumn of 1532 and top conquistador Francisco Pizarro and his men have finally crossed into the mainland of modern day Peru. And Dominic, only now are they beginning to grasp the reality of what they have discovered, an immense land stretching between the Andes and the specific. And this is the Empire of the Incas.

Speaker 2:
[47:09] Yeah. So at last we get to the Incas themselves. So first of all, the Incas, I think, are a little bit less known than the Aztecs. They're sort of shrouded in mystery.

Speaker 1:
[47:19] They don't call themselves Incas, do they?

Speaker 2:
[47:21] They don't. They don't call themselves the Incas at all. So the reason we call them the Incas is that they called their emperor the Sapa Inca and the Spanish got the word Incas from that. But they called themselves, as far as we know, they called themselves probably Runa, which means just the people, and they called their country, not Peru. They called it Tehuantinsoyo, the land of the four quarters, north, south, east, and west. And their history is a little bit obscure because they didn't write anything down. They had no writing.

Speaker 1:
[47:52] Oh, you'll be telling me they didn't have wheels next.

Speaker 2:
[47:54] You're right. You're not wrong. And they don't have pigs. So they don't have the three important elements for any civilization. So basically, what is written about the Incas is all written by Spanish chroniclers. And we are fortunate in some ways that the Spanish were fascinated by South America. And that in the 1530s, 1540s, 1550s, Spanish conquistadors and memoirists and historians are writing a lot of stuff down. But what we can't know, of course, is how accurate it really is.

Speaker 1:
[48:22] But I would guess again that if you have all these large numbers of people writing accounts, there must be a measure of truth. They can't just be making it up from nothing.

Speaker 2:
[48:31] I think so. I think absolutely. So the Incas are not the first civilization in the Peruvian Andes. Archaeologists will tell you there were loads of different cultures before.

Speaker 1:
[48:40] The Nazca, as in the lines. Yes.

Speaker 2:
[48:44] The Chavin, a very famous civilization called the Tuwanaku.

Speaker 1:
[48:48] Are they famous?

Speaker 2:
[48:48] They are famous. I talk about nothing else. I mean, the people I hang around with, they're always talking about Tuwanaku. I go out in London and in the pubs of London.

Speaker 1:
[48:56] I mean, I would say they're well-known, but I wouldn't say they're famous.

Speaker 2:
[49:01] I think famous is the word. So, I mean, Tom, Lake Titicaca, the Gate of the Sun. People are always chatting about that, aren't they?

Speaker 1:
[49:09] See, that's famous.

Speaker 2:
[49:10] Okay. So that's the Tuwanaku's most famous thing. They built this fantastic gate by a lake, and then they went into decline about AD 1000. And then they were succeeded, the Tuwanaku, by this loads of competing kind of city-states and tribes and stuff. And all of these people, so they're Andeans, they developed, as we said before the break, in isolation really from the outside world. Because north of Peru, you have the forests, the Highland forests of Columbia. West, you have the Pacific. East, you have Amazonia, with its dense rainforests. And south, all the way south, you have the wilderness that is Patagonia.

Speaker 1:
[49:46] So this is by miles, the most isolated civilization on the face of the planet.

Speaker 2:
[49:51] Yeah, I think so. I think so. So it's not like, it's not like a kind of a Himalayan kingdom that has been penetrated by.

Speaker 1:
[49:57] No, or Japan, or.

Speaker 2:
[49:58] Yeah, by missionaries or traders or whatever. This place is, these people have basically, have really been cut off. Now the Incas themselves, like the Spanish, they are newcomers to the top division, to the big league.

Speaker 1:
[50:11] And like the Aztecs.

Speaker 2:
[50:12] And like the Aztecs. So they're originally a pastoral tribe, so shepherds and stuff or whatever, in the valley of the Urubamba River, which is outside the highland city of Cuzco in the Andes, that's about 11,000 feet above sea level. They'd actually physically developed tremendous lung capacity or whatever to live so high up with the air so thin. And they speak a language called Quechua, which is an Andean language which precedes the Incas. They don't invent it or anything.

Speaker 1:
[50:41] So can I ask, is there a sense among the Incas, as it was among the Aztecs, that they are living amid the ruins of previous civilizations and that their gods and their sense of the past is inherited from those civilizations?

Speaker 2:
[50:54] Yes, definitely there is. Absolutely there is. So particularly this very famous people, the Tiwanaku.

Speaker 1:
[51:01] The well-known people.

Speaker 2:
[51:02] Yeah, really well-known. So a lot of their gods, a lot of their customs, a lot of kind of Andean social mores and whatnot, they are inherited by the Incas rather like the Aztecs with their successes to the people of Teotihuacan and so on and so forth.

Speaker 1:
[51:18] So the people in the Andes have this creator god, don't they? Viracocha.

Speaker 2:
[51:21] Yeah, Viracocha, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1:
[51:22] So he's an ancient god, not just an Incan god. And he's the top dog.

Speaker 2:
[51:26] Well, as we shall see, some of the great temples that end up being looted by the Spanish precede the Incas. You know, maybe hundreds or even thousands of years old, these religious sites. So yes, absolutely, they're living amid the ruins of civilizations that preceded them. They begin to expand from being just this little tribe in probably the late 13th century. So for context, that's the time when Edward I is hammering the Scots. Then by the 1350s, that's the time of the Black Death, 100 years war, all that stuff, they are expanding into the neighboring valleys. And historians call this state the Cusco Confederation. And then about a century after that, there's this legendary moment in Inca history when their rivals who were called the Chanka attacked the Cusco Confederation and the Chanka looked like they were going to have the upper hand. And the king of Cusco, who was called the Sapa Inca, he fled the city. But his son, who was called Cusi Yupanqui, rallied the army and he won this tremendous victory. And then on the back of that, he displaced his father and he became Sapa Inca or emperor. And he took a new name to mark that, which is Pachacuti. And he is the person, Pachacuti, who reorganizes and expands the Cusco kingdom into an empire.

Speaker 1:
[52:46] So he is the Augustus of the Incas.

Speaker 2:
[52:48] He is absolutely the Augustus. So when the Spanish came and wrote about him more than 100 years later, they said he is the guy, he is the founding father. So a Jesuit missionary called Bernabe Corbo said, he endowed the state with a code of laws, he expanded the official religion, he embellished the temples of magnificent buildings. In short, he overlooked nothing and organized everything. And later archaeologists and writers said, oh, Pachacuti is absolutely the man. The Augustus as you called him, Tom. So there's a Victorian explorer called Sir Clements Markham, who said Pachacuti, he said, was the best all-round genius ever produced by the native races of America. But actually, disappointingly, he may not have existed.

Speaker 1:
[53:30] What?

Speaker 2:
[53:31] Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1:
[53:32] Oh, no.

Speaker 2:
[53:32] Really disappoint.

Speaker 1:
[53:33] That is so classic.

Speaker 2:
[53:35] So I think modern historians now think the Incas might have made him up as they needed a founding father figure.

Speaker 1:
[53:43] It's kind of like, you know, if he didn't exist, you'd need to invent him.

Speaker 2:
[53:46] Well, that's the thing. So I think we should act as though he did exist because somebody like him must have done.

Speaker 1:
[53:52] Yeah. Someone of the same name.

Speaker 2:
[53:53] Yeah. Somebody must have expanded the empire. And so if you believe the traditional accounts, Pachacuti, his son who was called Tupac Inca and his grandson, who was called Huayna Capac, they massively expand this empire. So they go all the way west to the coast of the Pacific. They go north into Ecuador and Colombia. They go south to Lake Titicaca and the kind of highlands of the high plateau of Bolivia. They go southwest to the top of what is now Chile. So you can imagine them basically expanding throughout western South America.

Speaker 1:
[54:25] So it's just very, very long and thin.

Speaker 2:
[54:27] So long. So long. 2,500 miles long.

Speaker 1:
[54:32] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[54:32] There's an American writer called Charles C. Mann who wrote an absolutely wonderful book. I never thought I would say this about a book that has a lot of science in it. But it's called 1491 and it's about the New World before Columbus. Amazingly for a really good book, there's a lot of stuff about pollen and plants and agricultural terracing. But it's really interesting.

Speaker 1:
[54:53] It is, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[54:54] Yeah. In that book, he says, imagine as though there was one power that ran an empire that went all the way from St. Petersburg in the north to Cairo in the south, but a sort of long thin empire. That's the Inca Empire. Probably not as in the Royal House of the Sun claimed 24 million people, probably about 12 million people.

Speaker 1:
[55:14] Still impressive though, isn't it?

Speaker 2:
[55:15] I know. And they're living in massive regional diversity and all of this.

Speaker 1:
[55:19] And if you're a guy leading an invasion with about 190 horsemen, it doesn't really matter how many millions you're up against.

Speaker 2:
[55:25] It's still millions. No, exactly. This gigantic country. The mad thing is they don't have some of the things that Eurasian empires take for granted. Namely, the horse, the wheel, the arch and the written word. They don't have any of those things. What so what do they have? What's Inca civilization look like? Well, most people are peasants and they live in these kind of thatched huts along the river valleys of the Andes. They don't have any draft animals. There's no horses, there's no oxen in South America. So they don't have wheels because there's no point. I mean, I suppose you could have a wheeled barrow, couldn't you? You think you'd have a wheeled barrow?

Speaker 1:
[56:03] Yes.

Speaker 2:
[56:04] They don't have them.

Speaker 1:
[56:05] But they got llamas, haven't they?

Speaker 2:
[56:07] They've got loads of llamas. I mean, if you like llamas, you're laughing because they've got more llamas than anyone.

Speaker 1:
[56:11] Don't they eat guinea pigs?

Speaker 2:
[56:12] So guinea pigs, so what they eat, do you want to hear what they eat? They eat sweet potatoes. They eat this maize or as Americans would say corn. They eat potatoes, which the great historian John Hemming calls Peru's greatest legacy to the world is the potatoes. They don't have any cows, they don't have any sheep, they don't have any pigs. They have a load of guinea pigs and that's the national dish of Peru.

Speaker 1:
[56:31] Quite yum.

Speaker 2:
[56:33] They drink a kind of beer made from maize called chicha. They chew coca leaves. The Spanish commented that the Inca nobility seemed to be constantly chewing these coca leaves, the kind of very mild, very, very mild stimulant, basically ingredient of cocaine.

Speaker 1:
[56:48] Does it make them kind of rush around going on about how brilliant they are?

Speaker 2:
[56:51] No, I don't think so.

Speaker 1:
[56:52] Because I mean reading some of the stuff that the Inca emperors say about themselves.

Speaker 2:
[56:56] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[56:56] You think there's a guy who's been on a coca.

Speaker 2:
[56:59] No, I don't think so actually, because I think it's so mild, the coca leaf. I mean, I've never chewed a coca leaf myself, but anyway. They have a load of llamas, as you say, and alpacas. Now interestingly, they all wear the same clothes. So if you went to the Inca Empire for a stroll, you would see all the blokes wearing kind of brown cloaks and all the women wearing gray cloaks and so on. And this is an important point. This is a standard uniform and no deviation whatsoever is permitted. This is an exceptionally ordered society. So if you think about the Incas, they've got some massive things that are going against them. They don't have any domestic animals, very few domestic animals. They don't have rich farmland. And the sort of highlands of Peru, the steep slopes of the Andes is a terrible place to try to grow crops, which is why they have to carve out all these terraces and stuff. And as Pizarro's men march into this empire, they see these stone terraces along the hillsides. They see there's loads of irrigation canals and ditches and an incredible road network. So the largest road network in the Americas, 14,000 miles long, there's these paved stone roads, rope suspension bridges and almost like kind of primitive cable cars going across the valleys.

Speaker 1:
[58:16] And they are crucial in any film, aren't they? You have to have a battle on a swaying suspension bridge with somebody threatening to cut the ropes.

Speaker 2:
[58:24] Exactly. And all the way, there's a chain of kind of warehouses and storehouses along the roads with clothes and with food and supplies and stuff. There's nothing like this in Mexico and the Aztec Empire. And in fact, some of the Spanish say there's nothing like this in Europe. I mean, an incredible road network.

Speaker 1:
[58:43] But you'd have to have it because otherwise you couldn't run an empire that's that long.

Speaker 2:
[58:47] It's that long. But to have it at all, that tells you how this empire is working. So the Incas, they don't get people to build these roads out of voluntary enthusiasm. They force them. And they haven't built their empire by a shared enthusiasm for nice textiles and playing the panpipes. They have built it through force. In terms of weaponry, they're kind of Bronze Age, aren't they? They've got slings and sort of axes and clubs and halberds made of bronze. And they have quilted armor. And they have kind of Greek style crested helmets with kind of feathers and stuff. And they have nice little painted shields and whatnot.

Speaker 1:
[59:31] And they have this horrible thing, don't they? Where they come up against kind of enemy peoples. And they say to the leaders of the enemy peoples, you know, join us. And if you do, then you'll become one of us and you can have a great time. With guinea pigs and gold tweezers and things.

Speaker 2:
[59:45] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:46] And if you don't and you fight, and then you get captured, they'll bring you back to the capital and they'll dig these huge pits and they'll put in kind of snakes and hungry jaguars and things.

Speaker 2:
[59:59] Yeah.

Speaker 1:
[59:59] And then if you survive it, then you get pulled up and live as a servant. And if you don't, you get killed by these snakes and things.

Speaker 2:
[60:04] I'll just put my cards on the table here. I would not have liked to have lived in the Inca Empire. I think it sounds like a terrible place. I mean, this will shock our Peruvian listeners.

Speaker 1:
[60:13] Well, no. I mean, you have to wear this monochrome clothing. You have to spend your whole time digging roads. If you rebel, you might end up in a pit with a snake. I mean, it's not fun.

Speaker 2:
[60:21] They have absorbed all these surrounding peoples into their empire. And part of it is by persuading their elites to join the Inca nobility. And to be an Inca nobleman is quite a laugh. You get like a palace, you get the best food and drink. You get to use some of these roads are just for the nobility. You get to travel in a litter on these roads. And you get to wear these golden plugs in your earlobes, earplugs. They sort of widen out your earlobe.

Speaker 1:
[60:47] Would that be a selling point for you?

Speaker 2:
[60:50] I think it'd be worth a try. And the Spanish call them for that reason the oriones, the big ears. That's the Spanish name for the Inca nobility, the big ears. However, to be a peasant is awful. So basically the Aztecs, if the Aztecs conquered you, the Aztecs just wants you to send them some lovely beans as a tribute every year or whatever. You know, some chocolate or whatever. The Incas aren't really that bothered about the tribute. What they want is you. They want your labour.

Speaker 1:
[61:17] So it's kind of a bit like Maoist China. You have to wear the same clothes and just spend your whole time being bossed around by apparatchiks making the roads.

Speaker 2:
[61:26] Well, it's actually more like Stalin's Soviet Union, actually. So you will be called up regularly under a system called the meter, the turn. You will be called up to work on huge state farms and state construction projects. All these people who built all these roads and bridges and stuff are conscripts working in basically slave gangs, chain gangs. They belong to the emperor. There is no private property in the Inca Empire. There is no free market. In fact, there is no market of any kind. There are no markets, which is mind-boggling. There is no money. There is no private ownership of land. Land is held in common. In other words, it's kind of, well, Latin American Marxists in the 60s and 70s used to talk about Inca communism. And they said, this is brilliant. You know, no private property. There's no hunger because the food is kind of distributed by the state, all of this. But more right-wing historians write of this with horror. So Hugh Thomas, who ended up being a sort of very Thatcher adjacent peer in the 1980s.

Speaker 1:
[62:31] Incredibly boring historian. Cannot write an interesting sentence.

Speaker 2:
[62:35] His books are simultaneously incredibly long, but incredibly unsatisfying, no?

Speaker 1:
[62:39] Yeah.

Speaker 2:
[62:40] Just lists of the genealogy of conquistadors. So-and-so, who was from Trujillo, whose brother actually was the Bishop of whatever, and he just goes on and on and on. And actually the guy is fighting a battle on the rope bridge at this moment, but Hugh Thomas is more interested in telling you that his uncle once went to Caceres and I don't know, anyway, whatever. Hugh Thomas says of the Inca system, personal liberty was practically non-existent. Blind obedience and unquestioning self-abnegation had forever to be accorded. Never was there a more pervasive government than that of the Incas. And I think there is something a bit chilling about it. So basically, if they conquered you or if you did a deal with them, they would take like thousands of people and deliberately move them, like Stalin in the Caucasus, to the other end of the empire to work on a huge farm and force them to speak Quechua, which wasn't their language. And there's something very, not totalitarian, but something very top-down and joyless and cold about it, I would say.

Speaker 1:
[63:36] So here's a question. If you're an Andean peasant, just suppose, would you rather be conquered by the Incas or the Spanish?

Speaker 2:
[63:45] I don't think it's a bundle of laughs either way, to be honest with you, because the Spanish, as we will see, behave quite poorly at times.

Speaker 1:
[63:50] Do they behave as poorly as the Incas, though?

Speaker 2:
[63:52] It's a tough one.

Speaker 1:
[63:53] I mean, surely you get fiestas with the Spanish.

Speaker 2:
[63:56] Mariachi bands, you're thinking Mexico. You're a Mexico, Tom.

Speaker 1:
[64:00] I think you have fiestas in Peru, don't you?

Speaker 2:
[64:02] Yeah, but more Panpite-based, no?

Speaker 1:
[64:04] That's fine. That's the fusion of cultures.

Speaker 2:
[64:07] Yeah. I don't know. I think possibly I'm going to go with the Spanish just because I'm European. You're a centric person, so for that reason. The Incas do all this, of course, with no writing, and do you know what they use instead of writing? They have these things called quipus, which are long rows of knotted looped strings.

Speaker 1:
[64:25] I did know that.

Speaker 2:
[64:26] No one really knows how they work, because a lot of them were destroyed in the Spanish Conquest, and historians have puzzled some of them out. But basically, you get a load of string with a knot, and that could be the census.

Speaker 1:
[64:38] Yeah. It's like an abacus, isn't it? I mean, it's that kind of thing.

Speaker 2:
[64:41] It could be anything. However, all this suffocating uniformity of the Inca Empire, maybe is a little bit, I think, might be a little bit overstated. Because if you take the example of religion, we know that the Incas tried to enforce their gods on the people whom they conquered. So particularly, it seems like Pachacuti and his successors tried to enforce an official cult of the sun god linked to their own dynasty. The sun god was called Inti, and the Inca priests said, he gave the gift of civilization to Pachacuti's ancestor, it was called Manco Capac supposedly, and our emperor is therefore the son of the sun. You should venerate him and all this kind of thing.

Speaker 1:
[65:19] It's like Japan.

Speaker 2:
[65:21] Yeah. However, we know the Spanish discovered that all the different local people still had their own cults and their own shrines and their own gods.

Speaker 1:
[65:28] I mean, that's not surprising, and I guess that would also work actually in the dimension of what you want to wear and whether you have to go and build roads or whatever. Is that I imagine that off those main roads, there is actually a degree of autonomy, I would suspect. I mean, I don't see that you can impose that degree of uniformity over people who live 10 miles away up a mountain.

Speaker 2:
[65:52] I think you're right. I think the Incas are trying to impose a uniformity as part of the empire building project. But I think as we will discover, a lot of local groups bitterly resist that and actually hate the Incas. Rather like with the Aztecs, when the Spanish arrived in Mexico. There are a load of people who actually say, well, I mean, sure, I'm not a massive fan of the Spanish, but I'll tell you who I really hate. It's the people who have been lording over us for the last 150 years. And this is the case, I think, with the Incas. So in the Inca Empire, for example, the official language is Quechua. But millions of Incas don't speak Quechua. Millions of Incas subjects, I should say. So they would speak Aymara or Pukina or Mochica, all these other languages, many of which are now lost. And they chafe, I think, under the jack boot of the Quechua speakers from Cuzco. And so when the Spanish arrive, I think there are probably a lot of people who think, you know, the Spanish are not a bundle of laughs, they will behave very badly. But if they will guarantee us a little bit more autonomy.

Speaker 1:
[66:55] I mean, I imagine if you're an Andean peasant, you assume that anyone with power is going to behave badly.

Speaker 2:
[66:59] Yeah, I think you're right.

Speaker 1:
[67:00] It's just relative, you know, who's going to be worse.

Speaker 2:
[67:03] Now, with the Aztecs, we talked before about how diversity was not their strength, how the Spanish were brilliant at using this against them. And this would be the case here as well. But here, it's slightly different because the Incas are even more vulnerable than the Aztecs. And this takes us back to the scene that had confronted Pizarro and Coe when they landed on the coast and they found the devastation and the deserted streets and the looted temples. At the beginning of the 16th century, so the time when Pizarro is arriving in the Caribbean, 1500 or so, the Emperor of the Incas, the 11th Sapa Inca, as he was called, was this bloke called Juana Capac, who was Pachacuti's grandson. And Juana Capac is clearly a very impressive guy. He built those temples, he built those roads, he annexed a lot of what's now Ecuador and Bolivia. He pushed as far north as Colombia. It's quite possible that he was the first emperor to hear reports of the Spanish arrival in the Americas. So he probably would have got garbled news from Panama, because he's gone up into Colombia in the next country, up is Panama. So he's probably heard garbled news that some blokes with beards have turned up who are like laying waste and behaving poorly. So he may have known that the Spanish are coming, but the threat to him and his empires, not the Spanish themselves, it's what they bring from Europe, which is smallpox. So smallpox had arrived in the New World in the 1510s. It had ripped through the Caribbean, killing the vast majority of the indigenous population. And then it had killed colossal numbers of people in Mexico and Central America. It gets to Central America in the 1520s or so, then it goes down Central America, down the isthmus of Panama, into Colombia, into the very place where Juana Capac is campaigning with his army. It hits the army first, probably in about 1525, then it spreads to the court. It kills Juana Capac's eldest son. And then, you know, around about between 1525 and 1527 or so, he gets it too. And within days, he is dead. This disease to which nobody in the Americas has any immunity. And for the Incas, the death of the emperor from this unknown disease is an absolutely shattering pivotal moment. They have no system of primogeniture. So the next son in line does not have an automatic right to rule. Basically, the system works on constant succession crises. There's a crown, which is a kind of, it might sound slightly peculiar to listeners who are used to crowns. It's a kind of circlet of red cords with a tassel that hangs down. If you have the tassel, that shows that you're the king, the emperor. This circlet will go not to the eldest but to the strongest. There are two obvious contenders for the crown, as we should call it. One of them is Huayna Capac's son, Huascar, probably son by his first wife. Huascar's power base is in the traditional Inca heartland of Cuzco.

Speaker 1:
[70:09] He's an absolute lush, isn't he?

Speaker 2:
[70:11] You think so? He's a lush.

Speaker 1:
[70:13] I think this is harsh. He spends his whole time having drunken parties.

Speaker 2:
[70:18] That's what people say, but I think this is propaganda, actually. I think this is Atahualpa and propaganda, because the other son is called Atahualpa. Atahualpa is younger. He's from a different wife. Atahualpa is probably about 30. Probably his mother came from Quito, which is the capital city today of Ecuador. That tension between what's now Ecuador and what's now Peru is a huge, huge part of this story, north versus south basically.

Speaker 1:
[70:47] So Atahualpa doesn't have any particular loyalty to Cusco?

Speaker 2:
[70:50] No, not at all.

Speaker 1:
[70:51] Way down in the south.

Speaker 2:
[70:52] His loyalty is to Quito in the north. What ends up happening is Huascar becomes the emperor, and he says to his younger brother Atahualpa, well, you can be my viceroy in the north. You can rule in Quito, I'll rule in Cusco. There's 2,000 miles between these places. I mean, that gives you a sense of how huge this empire is. But it's very, very, I mean, it's a very trite comparison, but I'm just going to go there because that's what we do. It is very Game of Thrones, the potential for who's going to get the ultimate prize. By about 1529, relations between the two brothers have broken down. There's a civil war. Now, we're dependent on later Spanish accounts for the civil war, so it's a bit murky. Clearly, this is a regional as well as a factional thing. Quito in the north versus Cusco in the south, that's really important. It's extremely vicious. Basically, if you side with one brother and the other brother's troops turn up, they will take hideous reprisals on you. The longer the civil war goes on, the more damage it does to the empire's infrastructure and unity. It goes on for a long time. It takes three years before Atahualpa, the younger brother, the bloke from the north, from Quito, before he gets an advantage. In April 1532, his generals win a big victory over his brother's forces outside Cusco. They capture Huascar, the older brother, and Atahualpa's army can now lay siege to Cusco itself. Now this has come, victory is at hand, but it's come at a great cost to him and his empire. He personally has established a reputation for incredible cruelty. So if Spanish writers are to be believed, he would order enemy chiefs' hearts to be torn out and he would make their supporters eat them.

Speaker 1:
[72:39] Doesn't he behave very badly to poor old Huascar's nearest and dearest?

Speaker 2:
[72:46] Yeah, very bad.

Speaker 1:
[72:46] He rounds up all his wives, all his children, tortures them to death, then sticks their bodies on massive great spikes along the road. And I suppose effectively by doing that, he is destroying not just Huascar's status as a king, but any prospect of him establishing his dynasty.

Speaker 2:
[73:05] His bloodline, exactly, his bloodline. And Huascar supposedly was forced to watch while his wives and children were being tortured. Atualpa's armies and Huascar's armies have done tremendous damage to towns and cities, the length of the empire from Quito to Cusco. And they've divided the ruling Inca elite itself has been completely splintered. So to quote the Mexican historian Fernando Cervantes, the Inca nobility on which the system had largely relied was now irreparably torn. The scars of the war were too fresh, too painful and only too obvious.

Speaker 1:
[73:38] And isn't there a kind of Romans destroying Carthage scenario, where Atualpa basically tells everyone in Cusco, you've got to leave, you've got to come to Quito. I'm going to wipe out Cusco, abandon your temples, all of that.

Speaker 2:
[73:52] Yeah. So at this point, Cusco has not yet fallen, but Atualpa is clearly a very vengeful person and he is determined, he associates Cusco with his brother's faction and with the rebellion. All his commanders tend to be from the north, his family are from the north, and his investment in, as it were, the traditional Inca heartland is not great. Actually, I think there's a case that a lot of people in the central and south Inca Empire view Atualpa and his troops as outsiders.

Speaker 1:
[74:21] As foreigners, almost.

Speaker 2:
[74:22] As foreigners from the north, exactly. Now, this doesn't have to be fatal for Atualpa. He's won. With time, he can rebuild the Inca nobility. He can establish himself. He can stitch up the wounds of war. He can kill everybody he doesn't like. He could be the emperor for another 30 years or something. But of course, he doesn't know that time is the one thing that he does not have. Because this takes us back to the Spaniards who are knackered, hungry, sodden with sweat, but are now learning in reality about this empire.

Speaker 1:
[74:58] But just to remind people, 168 Spaniards.

Speaker 2:
[75:03] So these Spaniards, they don't know everything we know about the Incas. But what they do know now, thanks to their informants, is that to the south, there is this vast empire with extraordinary wealth. But it's divided. It is battle scarred. It is ripe for the taking. And Francisco Pizarro, this illegitimate illiterate bruiser from Western Spain, he doesn't hesitate. He knows exactly what to do. And so now the Spaniards road lies south, to a showdown with Atahualpa in the town of Cayamaca, to the temples and treasure houses of the Incas capital Cusco. And finally to a quest into the jungle to find the last lost city of the Incas.

Speaker 1:
[75:52] Showdowns, lost cities. This really is a series that has it all. We have five episodes to come and the tremendous news for members of the Rest is History Club, our very own band of bedraggled but ruthless conquistadors, is that you can hear all five episodes right away. And if you would like to sign up to join us on our Murderous Assault on the Incan Empire, then you can head to therestishistory.com and do it there. But for now, hasta luego. Bye bye.