transcript
Speaker 1:
[00:03] On the night of October 28th, 2018, Saskia's eyes fluttered open in the darkness, and they landed on her husband's laptop.
Speaker 2:
[00:14] The open screen was facing me. I saw what looked like a mostly naked back and butt with some light blue underpants on.
Speaker 1:
[00:26] Mike was turned away from her. He didn't see that she had woken up. She blinked against the blur of the computer light, trying to get her eyes to focus.
Speaker 2:
[00:36] I was so out of it. It was like I was in a dream, but I also knew that this was really serious.
Speaker 1:
[00:43] She fought to keep her eyes open. Her meds were pulling her to sleep. But as her mind shut down, something within her whispered, Remember this moment. Remember that screen.
Speaker 2:
[00:59] I don't know how I was able to do this, but I remember looking and I saw the name Chatterbait. And then I remember seeing 1,600 followers. I didn't know what that meant, but I just knew, just remember these things, these are significant. And I passed back out.
Speaker 1:
[01:36] I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season five, episode three, Dead Weight. The next time Saskia opened her eyes, it was morning, Sunday morning. The street outside was quiet, and daylight streamed through the blinds. But as she lay in bed, she could feel panic rising in her chest.
Speaker 2:
[02:00] I woke up feeling so scared, like petrified.
Speaker 1:
[02:05] Her mind was flooded by that underwater feeling, and her body felt heavy as if she were unable to move. But those feelings were interrupted by the image of the person in their underwear, and those words, chatterbait, 1600 followers. She remembered, what did it all mean? And what was Mike doing on his laptop?
Speaker 2:
[02:28] I still didn't know what was happening, and I don't know what he knows.
Speaker 1:
[02:34] She had no memory of whether Mike had turned around and caught her looking before she blacked out again. But that morning, Mike seemed normal. He came back in the room to get dressed.
Speaker 2:
[02:47] And he was like, I'm going to get the kids.
Speaker 1:
[02:51] At this point, three kids of theirs were staying with them, Saskia's two children and Mike's younger daughter. They'd all spent the night at her sister, Marisa's house nearby. For Mike, this was any other Sunday. He had to drop his younger daughter off at his ex-wife's house about an hour away.
Speaker 2:
[03:11] I figured I would let him do that and then I would talk to him.
Speaker 1:
[03:16] Mike left to get the kids from Marisa's house. Before Saskia could even think, her fingers dialed her sister's number. Marisa remembers picking up the phone.
Speaker 3:
[03:27] When I spoke to her first, she was not really with it yet. She was incoherent and she was trying to explain what she saw and she was distraught.
Speaker 1:
[03:38] Saskia was trying to relay information as quickly as she could and she was still in the fog of sleep. Marisa could barely understand her.
Speaker 3:
[03:47] I was like, what are you talking about? She said something about chatterbait. And I remember her saying that for the first time and just not having a clue what she was talking about.
Speaker 1:
[04:00] She tried to get Saskia to slow down, to walk her through what had happened. But just then, Mike arrived to pick up the kids. They hung up the phone.
Speaker 3:
[04:10] And she texted me like, call me, call me when you can.
Speaker 1:
[04:14] Marisa didn't grasp what was going on. Neither did Saskia really. What she did know was that Mike was doing something behind her back. And it involved something called chatterbait. Whatever that was, her gut told her this was bad.
Speaker 3:
[04:31] It was like right away she knew the significance. Her life was falling apart.
Speaker 1:
[04:43] While Mike drove his daughter home, Saskia tried to prepare herself for the confrontation. She had no idea what Mike had been doing online. She couldn't help but go to worst-case scenarios.
Speaker 2:
[04:55] My mind was just starting to go everywhere. I actually thought that maybe he's not who he says he is. Maybe he's on the run, or maybe he has a family somewhere else.
Speaker 1:
[05:07] The man she'd slept next to for seven years suddenly felt like a stranger. The more she thought about it, the more she realized she had no idea what Mike did every night. After she took her sleeping meds, she was always out cold. In those hours, he could be anyone. When Mike walked in the door a couple hours later, she was ready, not with a thought-through plan of what to do or say. She was ready, in her bones, to confront him.
Speaker 2:
[05:40] I told him I needed to talk to him. I had his laptop, and I put it under my pillow in the bed, and I was sitting on it, so that he didn't know where it was, and so that he couldn't try to take it. I told him what I had seen the night before, and immediately the mask came off. His face totally changed. And then, as if he was throwing his hands up, The first thing he said to me, I know things are over with us, but you can't tell my work, and you can't tell my oldest daughter.
Speaker 1:
[06:24] Tell them what? She didn't recognize this Mike. He was calm as always, but behind his eyes, there was nothing. Suddenly, she was scared, so much so that she thought about calling the cops. But this might be her only chance to get answers from him. So she told him what he needed to hear.
Speaker 2:
[06:47] I said, I need you to tell me exactly what you're doing, and I'm not gonna tell the police or your job or your daughter if you totally come clean and you tell me what has been going on. So he explained that for many years he had been using this website called Chatterbait.
Speaker 1:
[07:11] Chatterbait, he said, was a popular camming website. It's a place where everyday people perform sexual acts live on camera, and anyone can watch, comment, or pay for private shows. Mike worked at a bank. He often traveled for work. Now, he admitted to Saskia, that for the last seven years, whenever he'd go on these trips, Every time, he would be camming with women. He used the site to watch live streams and video chat with women directly. Was that what Saskia had seen last night? A private show? That woman, who was she?
Speaker 2:
[07:55] When I immediately said, how do you know these people? Is it the same people that you do it with? He said, sometimes. Then I said, are you in love with somebody? He was like, what?
Speaker 1:
[08:10] Saskia thought, Mike was playing dumb. There must be someone else, a woman he talked to after she went to bed. She opened up Mike's computer. If he wasn't going to come out with the information, she'd look at the website herself. She found her way to chatterbait and demanded that Mike log in and walk her through it.
Speaker 2:
[08:29] The way he was explaining to me was like explaining how to fold a fitted sheet or something. It was so detached from any emotion or any remorse.
Speaker 1:
[08:41] And what he was describing went far deeper than calls with other women.
Speaker 2:
[08:46] He explained to me, see all these tokens, people pay me money to look at my stuff. Then I can use those tokens to look at other stuff.
Speaker 1:
[08:57] Mike wasn't just watching other people cam. He was performing. People were paying him for sexual content.
Speaker 2:
[09:09] I was in shock. I was in disbelief. I felt like I was on the Twilight Zone. I think that's where he hoped it would end.
Speaker 1:
[09:17] Instead, Saskia took control of the computer. She started scrolling through the website, trying to make sense of it all.
Speaker 2:
[09:24] I was still trying to just take information in.
Speaker 1:
[09:28] That's when she saw it, the image that made her blood run cold.
Speaker 2:
[09:34] I remember looking and I saw a picture, and I was like, that's my underwear.
Speaker 1:
[09:42] The image she'd seen the night before on his computer screen was now right in front of her, in focus. And it was posted publicly under Mike's profile.
Speaker 2:
[09:54] I said, is that me? And he said, yes. That's you.
Speaker 1:
[10:22] Saskia was scrolling on Mike's chatterbait account when she saw a still image of herself. It was a picture of her sleeping in their bed, in her underwear. She stared at her husband. Too shocked to speak. The woman she'd seen on his screen, it was her.
Speaker 2:
[10:40] He explained, I've been doing chatterbait for a long time. I didn't start using us until the last year or a couple of years.
Speaker 1:
[10:50] Using us? She'd never heard of chatterbait. She never agreed to have her image published on the web. She never even knew this photo was taken. And by Mike, the man she trusted more than anyone.
Speaker 2:
[11:05] I said, how could you do this to me? How could you show people my body? And he said, well, I guess I thought it was sexy. I said, did you ever love me? And he just stayed silent. It was just no answer. He said, I guess we're both a little bit crazy. I said, no, no, I have mental health issues. You're a predator and you're a monster. We need to talk about what's going to happen. And when I said that, he started walking frenzied around the house.
Speaker 1:
[11:45] He was beginning to panic. Saskia had the laptop. She knew Mike wouldn't leave without it. She needed to hold on to it. She also knew it wasn't safe to continue confronting Mike alone. Her mind went to Marisa, but her sister was busy with her kids. So Saskia called her brother-in-law Ronnie.
Speaker 2:
[12:04] And I said, I really need you to come over, please.
Speaker 1:
[12:07] Ronnie couldn't be interviewed for this story. He passed away in 2022. Saskia remembers it was a relief to have Ronnie there. He was twice Mike's size. Mike wouldn't do anything with him around. Immediately, Ronnie tried to defuse the situation.
Speaker 2:
[12:24] He came over and he was like, what's going on, guys?
Speaker 1:
[12:28] But before Saskia could share what she'd just seen, Mike took control. He pulled Ronnie aside. He tried to explain.
Speaker 2:
[12:35] You know, guys look at porn, right?
Speaker 1:
[12:40] It seemed like Ronnie was buying Mike's story, that this was no big deal. Saskia had to get him to understand the gravity of the situation. This wasn't about Mike looking at porn or even talking to other women.
Speaker 2:
[12:55] He was using me and I knew nothing about that.
Speaker 1:
[12:59] Mike posted a naked photo of her online, a photo from when she wasn't awake. As she spoke, she watched Ronnie realize this wasn't right. He understood he was on her side. And he made it clear Mike needed to leave the house right away.
Speaker 2:
[13:17] Mike looked terrified. I said, what are you so upset about? What are you so scared of? Like you did this. And he said, I'm afraid of losing all this, like his stuff in his house.
Speaker 1:
[13:31] It was so strange and so unbelievable. Mike was already worrying about dividing up their things. He seemed sure their life together was over, all because of one photo. Saskia just needed Mike out, and eventually he agreed. Ronnie stayed by her side as Mike began packing a bag.
Speaker 2:
[13:53] He said he would leave and go to a hotel. I said, you're not coming back here until I say it's okay. And if you do everything that I ask you to do, I won't call the police. He acted like he was leaving, but then he came back up the stairs and told me he needed the laptop, twice. So the second time he did that, I actually did start to call the police. And he ran out.
Speaker 1:
[14:21] Finally, Mike was gone. And as soon as he drove away, Saskia and Ronnie went back to the laptop. They had to know what else Mike was trying to hide on this website, and if he'd posted any other photos of Saskia.
Speaker 2:
[14:36] We sat at my little kitchen island. And Ronnie did a search and he said, You're not going to be happy. And that's when I saw a ton of images.
Speaker 1:
[14:49] What she saw on Chatterbait, it wasn't just the one photo. It wasn't even 10 or 20 photos. There were dozens.
Speaker 2:
[14:59] They were all of me naked without clothing.
Speaker 1:
[15:04] When she'd first seen the website that morning, she'd been groggy. Her sleeping meds were still wearing off, but it was the afternoon now. She was more alert. And now she realized that the photos Mike had taken of her weren't really photos at all. They were thumbnails of videos, videos that had been live streamed on Mike's page. The image she'd seen earlier, it was just a preview, a thumbnail showing one of Mike's past live streams. The word 1600 followers now made sense. Mike had been videotaping her while she was completely undressed, broadcasting it to thousands of strangers on the internet. And seeing these thumbnails on Mike's profile, she could tell he'd done this many, many times.
Speaker 2:
[16:01] You don't see my face in most of them, but you see his face. And just the look on that face was just so painful for me to see who he really was.
Speaker 1:
[16:16] After he went to sleep, he turned their bedroom into a set. She recognized her walls, her sheets. But looking at the body in those images, it was like seeing someone else. It was her underwear, her tattoos. And yet she had no memory of any of these videos being taken. All those nights she'd been knocked out, all those nights she thought she'd been sleeping soundly next to the man she loved. Her body was there, in bed, living a nightmare.
Speaker 2:
[16:53] I was terrified because I knew my life would never be the same. I knew I would never be the same. I knew my family would never be the same. I was just terrified. Like, what am I going to find out?
Speaker 1:
[17:09] There was a video behind each of these images. But the videos had only been live. They weren't accessible anymore on the site. She wanted a fuller picture of what Mike was doing to her while he was streaming. Just as her brother-in-law was about to dig deeper to see if there was any way to access past streams, Ronnie couldn't get access anymore.
Speaker 2:
[17:32] He was like, oh, this stuff's not there.
Speaker 1:
[17:35] Suddenly, the thumbnails of Saskia, the only proof they had of what Mike had done, began disappearing from Chatterbait right before their eyes. Mike was deleting the evidence.
Speaker 2:
[17:50] And that's when I started freaking out, because I knew then he was going to try to get away with this.
Speaker 1:
[17:57] Within a matter of minutes, there was only one thumbnail remaining. But that wasn't going to stop her. Uploading nude videos of her had to be a crime, and Mike needed to be held accountable.
Speaker 2:
[18:11] So, I did call the police, and two officers came, and I showed them one of the pictures that was still there. One police officer said, how do we know that these are his pictures? And made me feel like I was in the wrong.
Speaker 1:
[18:32] Saskia didn't feel like the cops took her seriously. To them, this was a routine domestic issue. And the one picture wasn't enough to convince them otherwise. She pleaded with them, but...
Speaker 2:
[18:46] They basically told me to file for a protective order and then to get the locks changed.
Speaker 1:
[18:52] So the police left, and Saskia was at a loss. Then she felt her phone buzz. She looked at the screen and her stomach dropped. It was Mike. He texted her from his hotel.
Speaker 4:
[19:06] Let me just tell you more about the site. I have had access for years, but did not do anything with us until more recent.
Speaker 5:
[19:13] Us.
Speaker 1:
[19:15] Him and Saskia. Together. But so far as Saskia was concerned, he'd taken every one of those videos without her consent, without her being conscious. To her, this text was an admission of guilt. And that's when Saskia knew, she didn't just want him out of her life. She wanted him behind bars.
Speaker 2:
[19:35] I wanted justice and I promised myself that I was going to do anything possible, anything necessary to try to get it.
Speaker 1:
[20:03] The day after discovering what Mike had been hiding, Saskia started calling her friends, anyone who might be able to come and be with her as she navigated next steps. Her friend Heather was at work when she got the call.
Speaker 6:
[20:17] I answered the phone and it was the most horrible, sorry, the most horrible scream and cry I've ever heard out of another person. And she could barely get the words out. I was just like, what's wrong, what's going on? She didn't even know how to put together what she had seen and what she had experienced.
Speaker 1:
[20:48] Saskia was still putting the pieces together about what Mike had done to her. It was difficult to process, let alone communicate to another person. But Saskia recounted the story as best she could of seeing these thumbnails on Mike's computer.
Speaker 6:
[21:04] As soon as she said the computer, my mind flashed back to what she had told me about the night before the wedding.
Speaker 1:
[21:09] Two years before, Saskia had told Heather about waking up to Mike on his laptop and seeing people on screen. But at the time, Heather and Saskia wrote it off. Now, it was clear.
Speaker 6:
[21:24] He was testing the waters that night before the wedding. If that was the testing of the waters and had not been something that he had done before.
Speaker 1:
[21:31] This was serious. She knew if Mike had been using these kinds of sites since before the wedding, the thumbnails Saskia had seen were just a sample of what was to come. The day Saskia called her with this, Heather was dealing with an emergency at work. She couldn't leave.
Speaker 6:
[21:53] So I called Megan and I was like, Megan, you have to go see what's going on with Sass.
Speaker 1:
[21:59] Megan is another friend of Saskia's. At the time, Saskia and Megan were sisters-in-law. At the Halloween party the night before, Saskia had been drinking. And once again, she suddenly lost control. For Megan, it was a breaking point. She'd seen Saskia get like this one too many times.
Speaker 5:
[22:20] I was like, I'm never speaking to her again. Tonight is the end of our friendship, we're done. I'm not going to make it awkward for our family, but I am not going to be her friend anymore.
Speaker 1:
[22:30] But when Megan got the call about what Mike had been doing, she drove straight to Saskia's house.
Speaker 5:
[22:36] I forgot about everything in those moments because it didn't matter anymore. When someone needs help, I will jump right in and help.
Speaker 1:
[22:45] Meanwhile, Saskia was spreading the word about what Mike had done. She posted on Facebook and many people saw it, including her work friend Colleen.
Speaker 7:
[22:55] I was at work and I saw on Facebook she posted something like, I need help. Mike turned off all of his social media profiles. This isn't a joke. And I was like, oh my God.
Speaker 1:
[23:11] Colleen couldn't understand how this could be. Maybe Saskia had been hacked. Just to be sure, Colleen checked Mike's page.
Speaker 7:
[23:20] And his profile was gone on Facebook. And I was like, oh God, that's true. This is true.
Speaker 1:
[23:28] As a social worker at Child Protective Services, Colleen had experience responding to crisis situations. She headed right to Saskia. When she arrived, Megan was there too. Finally, Saskia had people around to help her.
Speaker 2:
[23:44] I felt so grateful to them.
Speaker 1:
[23:48] Here's Colleen again.
Speaker 7:
[23:49] We went to the apartment and she came out and was crying and kind of screaming and bit by bit things came out.
Speaker 1:
[23:59] She told Megan and Colleen the full story, as much as she knew of it anyway. Megan could hear the weight of Mike's actions and Saskia's voice.
Speaker 5:
[24:08] She just found out she was being violated by her husband. She was just beside herself. And I don't blame her. She was just a mess.
Speaker 1:
[24:20] Saskia couldn't think, so Megan got to work in planning the best next step.
Speaker 5:
[24:25] We needed to protect her from this man who is now a monster. I was like, we need to go to the courthouse right now and get a protective order.
Speaker 1:
[24:34] Before they could think about any kind of criminal investigation, they had to make sure Saskia was safe. Colleen agreed, they should go get a protective order right away.
Speaker 7:
[24:44] People who've been found out or who are about to lose control are really dangerous. That's when you see people getting desperate and doing things, killing themselves, killing other people. That's the highest risk time period. So the first thing was to have immediate safety.
Speaker 1:
[25:01] So Megan, Colleen and Saskia drove to the Montgomery County Family Justice Center. It's a one-stop shop for victims of intimate partner violence.
Speaker 7:
[25:10] The Family Justice Center in our jurisdiction does a really good job of being co-located with sheriffs, with state's attorneys, connecting people with social workers and victim advocates in one location.
Speaker 1:
[25:21] The day is a blur for Saskia, but she remembers going with Megan and Colleen to meet with a social worker about getting the protective order. They all waited together in a small room.
Speaker 2:
[25:32] I had the laptop with me, and someone came in and I started to tell them about what happened, and the lady said, there's probably nothing that we can do.
Speaker 1:
[25:45] Remember, Saskia only had the one thumbnail that was left on Chatterbait. All the others on Mike's page had been deleted, and the videos themselves were only shown live. They weren't accessible on Chatterbait after they aired. With only that one thumbnail, Saskia might be able to get a temporary protective order for a few days. But there wasn't enough evidence to secure a longer-term protective order. Saskia thought, Mike recorded the videos on this computer. Surely, there would be copies of the videos stored somewhere on the laptop. Megan recalls Saskia pleading with the authorities.
Speaker 5:
[26:25] She was like, his computer has all the videos on it. And they were like, we can't do the computer without a search warrant. We can't get a search warrant without video evidence. We need video evidence. You have to produce videos.
Speaker 1:
[26:40] It was a catch-22. They were stuck.
Speaker 2:
[26:43] Of course, I was devastated and I completely lost it and started running around.
Speaker 1:
[26:51] Colleen went after her.
Speaker 7:
[26:53] She let out this blood-curdling scream and ran down the hall. And the Family Justice Center is co-located with the sheriffs just because of the high risk of domestic violence and the sheriffs came sprinting. They didn't know what had happened. They just heard this scream and came sprinting down after her. She was just in shock. Like, what is going on? I think the magnitude hit her at that moment.
Speaker 2:
[27:18] I just flipped out because of how wrong I knew it was and how traumatized I felt.
Speaker 1:
[27:27] While Colleen tried to calm Saskia down in the hall, Megan remained in the room with the social worker. She was determined to find evidence against Mike. Even though Chatterbait doesn't save the live videos and Mike had deleted most of the evidence of prior streams, there had to be videos out there.
Speaker 5:
[27:46] Nothing goes away on the internet. Once it's there, it's there. So I just searched my phone because luckily, thank God, that idiot gave her his username.
Speaker 1:
[27:59] Saskia saw Mike's username earlier that morning, so Megan searched and searched. She found Mike's username listed on other porn sites, but she kept running into the same issue.
Speaker 5:
[28:12] All I could get were pictures. So I saw that these videos did exist somewhere on the internet, but the only things that I was getting were thumbnail pictures.
Speaker 1:
[28:23] Megan showed these additional images to the social worker, hoping that more photos would be enough to move ahead with the case.
Speaker 5:
[28:31] She's like, that's not good enough, we need video. So I'm just like, okay, there's gotta be video on here, like somewhere.
Speaker 1:
[28:38] So Megan continued to dig, and she found even more photos of Saskia.
Speaker 5:
[28:43] They were all over the internet.
Speaker 1:
[28:47] On the one hand, finding this content was a good thing. With every image, she became more sure that they could prove this. On the other, these were photos that anyone could find. Her friend's image was blasted without her consent across pornography websites.
Speaker 5:
[29:07] The amount of stuff I found online with her in it, it was tragic.
Speaker 1:
[29:15] In our interview, Megan went on to share what she saw. And I'll just say this, these images exposed the most intimate parts of Saskia's body.
Speaker 5:
[29:25] It was deep, dark searching. Like, I searched for a long time. Luckily, there's a website that rips footage from live streams and from cams.
Speaker 1:
[29:38] Bots sometimes enter the streams and record them for exploitation on other sites.
Speaker 5:
[29:44] And they'll give you ten second grabs of the videos so that you can pay for the full video. So I found those.
Speaker 1:
[29:57] She located four of these video previews. Megan's known Saskia since she was five years old. She's seen Saskia asleep, drunk, even blackout drunk. This was different.
Speaker 5:
[30:12] She was just dead, dead weight.
Speaker 1:
[30:16] And the footage revealed something else.
Speaker 5:
[30:19] In these videos, she was being raped by her husband.
Speaker 1:
[30:26] Mike hadn't just been taking intimate photos and videos of Saskia. He'd been using the moments when she was knocked out to assault her. As Megan watched, she thought back to all those times Saskia was too tired to go to an event, why it was so hard for her to get out of bed.
Speaker 5:
[30:46] After seeing that, it made sense why she wasn't functioning. She wasn't getting good nights of sleep. She was being tortured. The videos were deeply disturbing, and I did not want her to see them.
Speaker 1:
[31:01] But they were also proof of what Mike had done. So often, victims of intimate partner violence only have their own word. With these videos, Megan thought there was clear documentation of Mike's crimes. These were just 10-second clips, but she hoped they could get Saskia the protective order she needed to keep Mike away from her, and for investigators to get a warrant for the computer. So Megan played one of the clips for the social worker, and that was enough. Mike would later claim that Saskia willingly participated in chatterbait on many occasions, that she was not a victim, but an active participant in his online fantasy life.
Speaker 8:
[31:51] We know that's gonna be their defense. This isn't a case of, did the sex happen? That's not an issue. This is a question of, did she agree to it or not? And that's always a hard question in any sex assault case where consent is the defense.
Speaker 1:
[32:09] On the next episode of Betrayal.
Speaker 5:
[32:12] People were paying to see this go down. People in the chat, is she alive? Is she okay? People thought she was dead and they were watching it and paying for it.
Speaker 1:
[32:30] For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's r-a-i-n-n dot org slash Betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through Rainn's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673, or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, or wanna tell us your story, email us at BetrayalPod at gmail.com. That is Betrayal, P-O-D, at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram, at BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is the production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Malkyrie. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Voice acting by Steve Lalinsky. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.